US Sailing vs ASA Basic Keelboat, ASA Bareboat & Coastal Cruising ?

[Captain Smollett]

So far as I can tell, the curricula for US Sailing and ASA Basic Keelboat are the same.

Anyone know of any key differences?  Anyone familiar enough with both to recommend one over the other?

My wife has decided she would like to take some lessons.  We have an ASA group about 45 minutes from here (on an inland lake), another about 2 hours from here and a US Sailing school about 5-6 hours from here (but near some good areas to visit).

Costs are roughly the same.  ASA is 16 hours (2 days), US Sailing is 24 hours (3-4 days, depending on weather).  But again, from the simple descriptions on the web sites, the material covered looks identical, so I don't know about the 16 vs 24 hour differences.

[AdriftAtSea]

US Sailing is more racing oriented, especially in the later courses IIRC.  ASA is more cruising/daysailing oriented.

[Tim]

My experience has been in researching them no matter the method, the individual class and teacher can be very different.

The firstmate and I took from keelboat to bareboat ASA courses grouped together in an onboard classroom situation. Although it was great for us because primarily all we wanted was the bareboat certification, it would not have been ideal for someone with little experience.

I suggest getting references from people that have taken the class as to its effectiveness.

[AdriftAtSea]

A very good point...the instructor makes a huge difference... some instructors are far better than others.  If you're looking to cruise, getting an instructor who is primarily a racer may not be a good fit. 

[newt]

Ahoy Captain! I have taken from 101 to 106 with ASA, and I would agree with the instructor is the most important part.  Talk to the ones teaching the course, even over the phone you can learn quite a bit.
With that caveat however,
I would say that the best instructor I have ever had was a 70 year old fossil that seemed to do things that I thought were highly questionable on the trip. I think if I had talked to him in depth before the course I would have walked. (He had a great distaste for doctors and the medical field in general) Man would I have missed out. He could have sailed a dingy through a hurricane, and probably has. There was nothing he has not done (at least twice) during his forty years on yachts. He sails out of south Florida and to this day I have a great deal of respect for the old pirate. I review notes from his class every time I go out in the ocean. The stories from those 7 days have become some of the family folklore.  I would go on, but you get the idea.
Good luck in your search...

[Norm]

Hello All:
This winter I had the opportunity to teach both USSA and ASA courses through Coastal Passage Making/Advanced Coastal Cruising.  I am an ASA Instructor Evaluator certified through 106/ACC.

I agree completely that the instructor, boat, sailing venue, and classmates are the biggest contributor to success or disappointment.  Love the story about the old codger!

The ASA tests are the same ones I took in 1985.  Much of the material is out of date.  The ASA exams are a bit harder than the USSA ones.  However, the USSA exams follow the text well.  The ASA exams assume a rich discussion in class that prepares one for the exam.  (Chuckle...)

If the instructor is able to stay on track and not get too distracted by the students, either program will do. 

Charter companies don't care which you have.  (They mostly care that you have a sufficient limit on your CC to cover "mistakes."  More on charter companies later.)  The ASA is more widely recognized than USSA.  There are more schools and students.  I hear that 80% of USSA certifications come from the Offshore Sailing School program which feed Moorings and Sunsail.

In general, more time on board with an instructor is a plus.  The second part is practice after the classes.  If you have a place to practice and do get in sailing practice, the learning experience is solid.

Best,
Norman

[Lost Lake]

I finally signed up for the classes June 26th in Ludington, MI. It's a Wednesday night - Sunday night class never leaving the boat except to eat breakfast and supper on Thursday and Friday.

I plan to test out of the basic keelboat course (I understand this is a common challenge). So far the only students signed up are myself and a friend of mine. The boat is a 38.5 Hunter. The skipper says he'll sail with just us two on board.

What have you salty sailors learned over the years that I should be seeking from my teacher? I think navigation will come fairly easily for me as I have piloted small planes for years, and the knots I can pick up, but I was hoping you could tell me what I should ask and really wring out of the instructor.

I would like to bareboat this winter in the BVI or AVI.... Maybe take along another more experienced couple...

[Norm]

The things that go wrong on most cruises are related to stopping the boat.  You know:  docking, mooring, anchoring, man overboard, and reefing. 

Night sailing and night navigation are important skills.  If you can get some night sailing where you practice steering without the compass, stay on course by feeling the wind angle, heel angle, etc that will be very useful.

BVI and USVI sailing requires a credit card only.  The sailing is so simple.  It is all line of sight and there are few buoys.  Where folks get wrapped up is going alongside the water and fuel dock.

have fun and write about your adventures

[AdriftAtSea]

Norm's points are excellent... boats far from objects to hit are generally not going to have as many possible problems as they are when they get close to land, docks, moorings, etc.

[Lost Lake]

Thanks for the replies, I will get some night sailing in if the weather isn't too rough on Lake Michigan. I have never done night sailing, although I have sailed into docks and buoys (sailing by braille I call it). Of course there were plenty of people there to see me run into things!

My biggest sailing fears are fast approaching storms and going bump in the night with whatever lurks below the water. The whole cold-water-sinking-ship thing should probably scare everyone though.

[Norm]

In terms of biggest fears:
Weather systems behave in a generally logical fashion. 
-In the North, weather moves from West to East.  Look at the Western sky for clues about the near future weather.  I used to watch the Weather channel and try to predict the weather for my immediate area for that day.  In time, I got pretty good at it.  Correlating clouds and temperature changes with weather changes.
-Get a barometer (I have a Casio wristwatch with barometer that is an essential tool for cruising) and learn to correlate the barometer changes to weather changes.
 In a little while, you'll see the weather coming and adapt to it before it whacks you by surprise. 

Things that go bump are not more common at night than during the day.  Are you dodging stuff all day while out sailing?  If so, they will be there at night.  We have lobster trap markers to deal with in the North East.  We also have learned how to deal with them in terms of lookout, routes, and dodging.

If you feel safe sailing during the day you should be able to feel safe at night.

I will be interested in hearing about your training cruise.  I head out on a week long one tonight.  Just finished one last week.  Then... a few weeks off for self indulgent sailing on our own boat for fun!

[AdriftAtSea]

If you're planning to be out coastal cruising for any period of time, practice reefing your boat, until you can get your reefs tucked in almost instinctively.  If you can get your mainsail reefed in under three minutes, that is probably as good as you'll need. 

Remember, the best time to reef is when you first think you might need one.  It is always easier to sail a bit undercanvassed, than it is to try and get a reef tucked in after the wind really picks up. 

[KenR]

Before you start, make a list of  things that you feel really uncomfortable doing.

During your training, do them again and again.

Start another list.

[Lost Lake]

Wow, there's some great advice here!  Thanks everyone!!

[Norm]

So, tomorrow's the day you start "lessons."

Good luck as in, I hope you have fine shipmates and a variety of conditions.  Tell us the story, OK?

If you feel up to a BVI charter, let me know.  I spent a few years there in that business.

Norm

[newt]

Hi Norm,
Without trying to hijack this thread, could you give me a brief rundown of the charter business in BVI. I want to bareboat this winter, I was thinking of actually renting in Florida and taking a few days up and back with me and my son, then getting the rest of the crew on at San Juan. ... just to give me a bit more time on the boat. I am very comfortable with yachts up to 50' and have lessons and experience offshore and making night landfalls in unknown waters (and a good chart).
What do you think would fit for me?

[Auspicious]

I was thinking of actually renting in Florida and taking a few days up and back with me and my son, then getting the rest of the crew on at San Juan.

I think you'll have trouble finding a mainstream charter company to sign up to that plan. I know that Moorings will approve one-way and round trip charters between the BVI and St. Martin for repeat customers with a good record and solid resume, but that's only one overnight.

Most of the charter companies have "no night sailing" written into their contracts. They are very serious about it.

In the BVI, don't miss White Bay on Jost Van Dyke, Marina Cay, Saba Rock in North Sound of Virgin Gorda, or (if you like a little seclusion) Key Bay on the South side of Peter Island.

sail fast, dave

[Lost Lake]

I'm back!! 

What a great time I had in Ludington, MI sailing on Freedom, a Hunter Legend 37.5. My instructor was Captain Dale Fitch, a very calm and nice man, who never had a bad word for anyone.

I took the three classes with a friend of mine, Ken, who always talked about his sailing adventures, but I came to find out they were all on a 14' sunfish type boat with a single sail. He wasn't quite as ready for these classes as I was.

We arrived on the Badger ferry at 6 pm and Dale met us at the dock. He transported us to Freedom and we put our gear on board and looked around a bit while he called his wife to see if she was up for dinner with the boys from Wisconsin. Luckily she was and I recommended a brewery I had spotted on the way to the boat. Game on, we picked up Carolyn and went to eat.

The brewery in Ludington is an excellent place to eat and have a few wonderful beers. I figured if the first three were good, the next three would be better, and the three after those would be just marvelous! I was right, and after I spent $60 on beer and an appetizer, I was poured into the truck and driven back to Freedom.

The morning came waaaaaay too early, and I downed a few aspirin and met the sunlight. I was in the aft berth, Ken took the front, Dale wisely slept at home. Nothing was said of my night of imbibing and I almost thought I'd get away with my indiscretion, but later that night I would hear Carolyn tell me how I kept saying, "Bring on the storms, I love high winds, we'll have a ball!"

This was Thursday morning, and we prepped Freedom for departure. Weather was forecast to be bad through Sunday (hence my bravado after several ales) but we would sail no matter what. We worked on motoring around, docking with iron wind, and sailed a bit into Lake Michigan with 8 - 10 knot winds. This day went quickly, then it was back to port, secure the sails and boat, and back out for dinner at the yacht club. Dale signed us up for a $7 grill-your-own-steak and they were really wonderful steaks! Two beers later an older gent named George said he was taking out his power boat for a late buzz around the marina. We were welcome to come along, and everyone was gathering their coolers of beverages, but I thought I'd lay low this night, try to make a better impression on my new friends.

Dale dropped us back at Freedom and I walked to take a shower before bed. Rain was forecast and I thought I'd beat the weather. The Marina in Ludington has a fantastic shower and restroom facility, but from Freedom's slip it was a half mile walk. Not bad in nice weather, but a real long way in the rain or when a pile of onion rings is being worked through your system by 10 pints of beer. 

Okay, Friday! Back out to the lake, sun shining (oh, to be a weather man and only need to be right half the time) time to practice 'man overboard'. We threw this poor man windward, leeward, aft, every which way that we could chuck a throwable preserver. Most of the time we had him back on board in less than a minute. We saw something floating in the water and sailed it down to find it was a bottle with a note in it (or at least a wrapper) but lost it before we could find a way to scoop a bottle from the lake. Lots of practice today with tacking and jibing, using proper commands and working as a crew. We learned more systems on the boat like proper use of the stove and head, the ice box, diesel care and troubleshooting, hull repair, just all kinds of things. When we got back we took our Basic Keelboat test and I am happy to say I aced that one!! 

Dinner Friday was at a pizza place with more great beer, and then off to another yacht club. (Do all yacht clubs have $1.25 beers?) Lots of laughter and talk, we found out old George just got his stinkpot and it was fun to rib him about when he 'used to sail'. He lamented that after sailing for 60 years, he takes a break for a bit and now he's not a sailor!     I got him once by asking what sails used to be made form back when he sailed.....  All in good fun, and we all had a great time.

I wanted to look around town so while Ken hit the bunk, I walked uptown. The Macker was in town, I had no idea what it was, but learned the Gus Macker was a basketball tournament of sorts for charity. It is a huge event! I walked about 5 miles just looking around town, then a mile back to Freedom so I could get some shuteye.

Saturday, We tested for the Coastal Cruising exam and I passed with a good score. I made a couple clerical errors and a bonehead error too. Then we stocked Freedom with bratwurst (we're from Wisconsin after all) and headed to Pentwater. The forecast was to be 2 - 4 foot waves, 20 knot winds with a small craft advisory coming out in the afternoon, turning 3 - 5 with 25 and thunderstorms. Needless to say, it was beautiful sailing into 18 knot winds all the way to Pentwater. We found anchorage and used the stove and grill to prepare dinner. A storm did come roaring in from the west and in our protected harbor it was quite amazing to watch. Ken commented he hadn't watched a storm since he was a child. One of life's simple pleasures! The wind was gusting to 30 knots and I was really glad we were protected from this storm. Rain came down in sheets. It cleared after an hour and we had a beautiful evening. A few beers and we went to bed around 11.

Sunday, we took the dingy to breakfast at a diner and then prepped Freedom. We were really a crew now, we all knew what to do, and what was expected. Motor to the anchor while running the windlass, ready the main, switch to batteries 'all'. Fire up the diesel, turn for the canal leading to Lake Michigan.  BUT WAIT !   What did I see ahead? A sailboat! Headed out 1/4 mile ahead of us, his genoa already up, motoring. Ken was at the helm, I urged him to run the rpm's up a bit and let's give chase. Dale was a racer for many years, and he smiled a big grin, Ken said that was ridiculous. 

Up until this point, I overlooked Ken turning to port when Dale said to turn starboard, and Ken heading up when we need to turn down, but at this very instant I began to wonder if he was truly cut out for sailing.    Every sailor I know gives chase, and by now we saw the boat in our sights was a Hunter 34, about half the weight, a little less sail, and 1/4 mile ahead. Dale read the boat's name and knew the skipper, an old racing man himself. I went below and put on a life preserver, I told the boys this was 'gonna get serious'. Dale laughed, but he was surely in with me. The 34 turned out of the channel on a broad reach with just his genoa. We turned South into the wind and I hoisted the main faster than I have ever hoisted a main sail. Dale barked "Head to Starboard" and Ken turned to port towards the sea wall. "The other Starboard!" Dale yelled, I guess he could raise his voice! Ken brought us back around, and we unfurled our genoa.

Ken manned the helm, and fought the waves so much that we zigged and zagged port and starboard. Dale commented that the 34 skipper would surely think we were in distress and maybe turn around, allowing us to catch up.    Went below and put on a sweatshirt, winds were 20 knots and cold, and the waves tossed the boat a bit, making walking in the cabin a real challenge. I came topside and offered to relieve Ken so he could get a jacket on. Ken agreed, he looked a bit pale, really stressing out at this point. I used the 34 to point Freedom and caught the 34 quite quickly. As we passed to leeward, the crew on the stared at us, then turned about and raised their main. They looked short-handed and probably didn't really want the main up, but they were just passed and I knew how they felt!

They never had a chance, our bigger sails and longer waterline prevailed. The 34 tried to tack and catch a faster point of sail, but we held a steady 6.7 knots almost true to course. WOOOHOOO!!  Back into port, drop and stow the sails, motor back to the marina for a head pump-out and tie up at the dock. We took the final Bareboat test and I did well again, although this was the hardest of the three for me. A few celebratory beers with lunch and then we scrubbed down Freedom and covered the instruments. Dale received a phone call, it seems some friends had shown up and were raiding his refrigerator at home, so Ken and I not wanted to be a burden asked him to go do his thing while we looked around town one last time before the ferry took us home.

Neat town, Lundington, MI, and we shopped some eclectic places. A light dinner and a walk back to the ferry for an 8'oclock departure, and we were ready to be home. The ferry takes 4 hours to cross the lake, then I had a 2 hour drive home. It was great to be home, and now I have some wonderful memories of sailing the Hunter Legend.

My little CP19 was so small in front of the shop when I pulled in that night. I don't know if I'll keep her or trade up, with 3 kids and a first mate. I'd kind of like to have more of these kinds of adventures and the 19 just isn't big enough for all of us. 

I guess I'll play it by ear! 

[AdriftAtSea]

Uhoh, someone sounds like he's got three-footitis, maybe six-footitis even.

[Captain Smollett]

Wonderful story, Lake.  Thanks for the write-up.