How much experience is enough?

[Frank]

Years ago when I started in business an old fellow said "people are funny...if you succeed they'll say lucky guy...if ya fail they say I told ya so" Bottom line is who are we to judge.There have been an abundance of passages made by people not really experienced on boats not really up to the task. From Tinkerbelle to Shrimpy and so on. While I agree one should be prepared,KNOW how to sail and handle different conditions and be on a well found boat....even then people will have opinions.What defines 'experience'? What defines a 'well found boat'? Size? Equipment?, design? etc. And NO MATTER what 'your' answer is....others will not agree and for very good reasons.I would personally think that being captain on your own craft is one of the very few true freedoms left out there.Easy to beat some guys choices to death....lets just learn from them  .....and if we make some passage later trouble free...some one will say 'lucky guy' anyway

[Tim]

IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready. 

My sentiments also, making the decision to go out IS a personal one, but if one needs to ask another as to his own readiness, he probably isn't.

[David_Old_Jersey]

IMHO If you can't answer this question for yourself then you're not ready. 

My sentiments also, making the decision to go out IS a personal one, but if one needs to ask another as to his own readiness, he probably isn't.

But one could take the view that being able to question oneself (within reason) and also seeking the opinions of others before making your own big decision is simply prudent.

Or not 

[okawbow]

I may have worded my question wrong, but I don't think I was asking anyone if I'm ready to go yet. I wanted to know if anyone that hasn't done a big crossing, can ever be experienced enough to attempt the crossing and not be raked over the coals (by some people,) if he has to bug out.

 I don't think anyone really knows every solution to every problem that might occur in a small sailboat crossing. No one can possibly anticipate everything that will go wrong. Maybe the will to accomplish is more important that the means in some cases.

 This spring, I made a 1000 mile solo trip from Kentucky Dam to Florida in my Bristol 24. When I started, I'd never worked on my diesel before, or sailed at night, or even been offshore alone before. Heck, I'd never even anchored out before! By the time I finished a month later; I had torn down my engine 3 times, and it ran as good as new. I had anchored out about 25 times in many different varieties of fast current and bottom. I made a 170 mile offshore passage under sail, in 31 hours and hit my mark on the nose the next morning. I ran aground 3 times and got loose without help. I had never gone through a lock before, but passed through 11 of them in 4 days with out any problems.

 If I made the trip again; would I be any faster or better? I'm not sure it would make a lot of difference. I might even be less vigilant, and more prone to accident. There is nothing like doing something the first time, to keep one on his toes.

 I feel that some tend to be overly judgemental when someone fails to meet their high standards. Sometimes you want to do something so badly, you are blinded to the reality of the adventure. Adversity reveals character. Or lack there-of. I think occasionally we all feel the need to ignore the consequences, and just go.

[CharlieJ]

EPIRB. That is a good question. We don't have one, and don't particularly worry on offshore passages. We have faith in the boat, and ourselves.

Will we add one in the future? I don't know. Maybe. I'll tell you when the time comes.

[Frank]

Okawbow....I like your post...sometimes ya just gotta do it  ....."I may have worded my question wrong, but I don't think I was asking anyone if I'm ready to go yet. I wanted to know if anyone that hasn't done a big crossing, can ever be experienced enough to attempt the crossing and not be raked over the coals (by some people,) if he has to bug out.

 I don't think anyone really knows every solution to every problem that might occur in a small sailboat crossing. No one can possibly anticipate everything that will go wrong. Maybe the will to accomplish is more important that the means in some cases.

 This spring, I made a 1000 mile solo trip from Kentucky Dam to Florida in my Bristol 24. When I started, I'd never worked on my diesel before, or sailed at night, or even been offshore alone before. Heck, I'd never even anchored out before! By the time I finished a month later; I had torn down my engine 3 times, and it ran as good as new. I had anchored out about 25 times in many different varieties of fast current and bottom. I made a 170 mile offshore passage under sail, in 31 hours and hit my mark on the nose the next morning. I ran aground 3 times and got loose without help. I had never gone through a lock before, but passed through 11 of them in 4 days with out any problems.

 If I made the trip again; would I be any faster or better? I'm not sure it would make a lot of difference. I might even be less vigilant, and more prone to accident. There is nothing like doing something the first time, to keep one on his toes.

 I feel that some tend to be overly judgemental when someone fails to meet their high standards. Sometimes you want to do something so badly, you are blinded to the reality of the adventure. Adversity reveals character. Or lack there-of. I think occasionally we all feel the need to ignore the consequences, and just go.

[Bill NH]

Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more strongly.  Experience is by nature cumulative.  To say otherwise is an oxymoron.  The fact that we learn from our past (especially our mistakes) is precisely what is meant by "experience".  Even lab rats in a maze learn from their experiences, avoiding the pitfalls and finding the cheese. 

To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.

Every time you experience something you add it to your store of knowledge and observations that you can draw upon later.  The first time you take your boat through a butt-kicking storm you will find alot of things that could be stowed better or more conveniently, your reefing will be quicker and better with every time you do it, you will learn how your boat behaves to different size seas coming from different directions, you'll learn what sail combinations and trim allow her to heave to best...  the list can go on and on.  To say that experience is not cumulative is just plain wrong, I don't care what famous person said it.  While having experienced your first storm doesn't guarantee that everything will also go smoothly in the second, it sure will help improve your odds!

[dnice]

Dave and Jaja Martin said "Experience is NOT accumulative".

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more strongly.  Experience is by nature cumulative.  To say otherwise is an oxymoron.  The fact that we learn from our past (especially our mistakes) is precisely what is meant by "experience".  Even lab rats in a maze learn from their experiences, avoiding the pitfalls and finding the cheese. 

To me this means, if you have sailed through one storm, that does not mean you are prepared for the next one. There are no two storms that are the same.

Every time you experience something you add it to your store of knowledge and observations that you can draw upon later.  The first time you take your boat through a butt-kicking storm you will find alot of things that could be stowed better or more conveniently, your reefing will be quicker and better with every time you do it, you will learn how your boat behaves to different size seas coming from different directions, you'll learn what sail combinations and trim allow her to heave to best...  the list can go on and on.  To say that experience is not cumulative is just plain wrong, I don't care what famous person said it.  While having experienced your first storm doesn't guarantee that everything will also go smoothly in the second, it sure will help improve your odds!

...

I apologize, surely I used that comment out of its original context.

it still makes sense to me though.
 
In my business I often see people with Years of experience who haven't accumulated anything except dirt under their fingernails.
 And just as often there will be a guy with no experience at all and making everyone else look like amatures.
So maybe its possible that knowledge and wisdom are not inherently connected to experience?

the Martins are just a couple of sailfar folks like everyone else here, who by sharing their experiences have imparted tremendous wisdom and knowledge to anyone who cares to listen.

[roybaots]

For me I think knowing no matter how long we sail we can never know it all. Its a forever learning thing. Some things we can never prepare for till it happens. I wish i knew how to weather a hurricane properly.  Odd thing though, no one wants to take me out in one.(kidding) we all learn as we go and as long we go we learn. You'll know when ready, or a least know when your ready enough.       Ready enough is I think good as it gets.....

[Bill NH]

In my business I often see people with Years of experience who haven't accumulated anything except dirt under their fingernails.
 And just as often there will be a guy with no experience at all and making everyone else look like amatures.
So maybe its possible that knowledge and wisdom are not inherently connected to experience?

Good point! Just putting in your time doesn't get you much if you don't learn from it.  I think the connection is that you must reflect on and process your experiences to benefit the next time around...

[jotruk]

It doesn't matter how much experience or how little you have. You have to know when its time to turn and call it quits. Only you know what the situation is at the time and you are the one responsible for your decision. So you own the call. My 2 cents worth

[Norm]

What a popular topic!  What a great question!

My take is that there is never enough experience and the only way to get more is to "go."  Sort of a circular argument.  Also, the driving force that keeps us sailing, the desire for more experiences.

Consider the role of being mentally ready.  I think back to when my wife and I decided to have a child.  We had no experience but had a willingness to start and we were mentally ready.  Three lovely children later it turns out that we did all right.  (We could do parenting well but not marriage... oh well...)

Voyaging works the same way.  At some point you're ready.  Then, "go."

I get to see lots and lots of voyagers.  It is part of my line of work.  The folks who aren't ready have perfectly prepared boats securely lashed to the pier.  The boats that are out there are an odd collection of vessels being sailed by an odder collection of sailors.  Very, very few die at sea.

An aside, perhaps.  I have been asked to quote on a delivery of a 40 footer from the BVI to NC.  My quote is:  "sail it to Puerto Rico, unrig the boat, and barge/truck it to the States."  No one has enough experience to sail that boat on the ocean.

Thanks for bringing up the subject.  And, I am way impressed with the trip KY-FL.

[Cmdr Pete]

How much experience is enough?

It's a difficult question. Funny, but the issue is not really discussed too much. Instead,  people argue endlessly about

How much boat is enough?

How many projects till the boat is good enough?

How much equiptment is enough?

I think the only thing everybody agrees is that there is never enough time.

[max_hyde]

There is a saying in my line of work, has someone with 20 years experience actually got 20 years experience or one years experience repeated 20 times, this is based on the fact that most people stay within their comfort zone and refuse to push boundaries!!!!! just a thought

[okawbow]

A couple of the sailors in our club have over 30 years experience sailing our lake. These people both have good, well found sailboats, but refuse to go sailing in winds over 15 mph. Do they know their limitations, or with all their years of experience; did they never learn to handle higher winds?

I guess one can suffer from bad experiences as well as benefit from good ones. One of our members is a CG licensed captain, and has thousands of blue water miles. His last two deliveries went badly, and caused him to rethink doing boat deliveries. He hasn't been offshore for a couple years now, and likely won't go again.

As for crossing oceans; it seems a lot of people do it without much previous experience, or even without being a basically good sailor. I read a book, "Racing The Ice to the Horn" about a 50 something man sailing a 24" Gladiator, I think, from California to The east coast of South America via Cape Horn. The first two times he took his boat out for test sails; he ran into a barge, and something else, before he could even get out of the harbor! Once off shore; there is not much to worry about running into, until you get to the other side.

[CatboatCarl]

Just saw the movie 'Deep Water' about Donald Crowhurst, and in the extra features there's a great interview with Blyth, one of the competitors in the single-handed around the world race.

Blyth had never sailed, but he had done a double-handed row across the Atlantic.  His comments about his first night at sea were pretty funny.

He shouldn't have gone, in my opinion, and he retired from the race at the Cape of Good Hope.

I like the idea of going somewhere by sail, but I don't have the experience to do most of what I dream about.  I do, however, think I know how to get the experience.  Hope that doesn't hurt too bad...

[max_hyde]

This may be an example of inexperience

http://http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20080924095447ymnews.html


or just bad luck

[AdriftAtSea]

No, I don't think it is just bad luck.  It takes a certain kind of idiot to go out without even the minimum of basic safety gear.  He had seriously outdated flares, no radio, no PFDs, and not even the basics needed to navigate safely—no charts.  In his case, I think it was far more than just inexperience.

[max_hyde]

I was joking

[Pappy Jack]

I just wonder how many "Captain Calamity's" there are out there sailing around and just 'luck out' and not get caught. I guess that God looks out for drunks, fools , and idiot sailors...well, some of the time .

I know that my boat and I are fine for where we sail now but not for "The Scoot". By the start of "The Scoot" I should have "Peregryne" and myself ready to go. A week on Lake Superior or Michigan next summer should bring out any weakness in me or the boat.

There is always that uncertainty when you take that next BIG step, whether it be sailing or what ever life brings your way. All you can do is prepair, take a deep breath, and take the leap.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack