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People, Boats, and Stories => Boat Discussion => Topic started by: Jim_ME on November 30, 2010, 08:28:32 PM

Title: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on November 30, 2010, 08:28:32 PM
Thought that I would start this to discuss the Thames Snapdragon 26 sailboats... so that I won't clutter up your Great Loop Cruise thread, Bruce.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on December 01, 2010, 05:09:55 PM
Thanks Jim. Jake asked me to get the hull number of my snappy from the brass plate inside of the port side cockpit locker so that we could research the history of our respective boats.  It was impossible for me to reach the boat today due to high winds and waves, but I hope to be able to get to it tomorrow.  What do you know about the history of your snappy? 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 01, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
Bruce, Jake asked me what my hull number was, too. I've replied that I don't know, and had not come across any builder's plate yet, and was going to ask where it might be--if there is one. So you have anticipated that question. It's pouring rain out right now, but I may be able to check tomorrow, in the daylight.

I know very little about the history of my boat. The ad that I saw called it a Centaur, but I could see that it was a Snapdragon. The PO thought that he had a set of sails, but could not find them, so I could not look for the sail number on the main. I did however, get the boom, but judging its length by how far it extends beyond the 8-foot pickup bed, it appears to only be about 10 feet long, and I believe that the E dimension that I saw on a specs page is about 11.4 feet, so I'm having some doubts about whether it is the correct boom or not. If it is convenient for you sometime, perhaps you would measure your boom length for me to compare with?

On that rig specs page, the snapdragon had somewhat similar P & E [or at least E dim, since I've checked, below] rig dims as the Alberg Sea Sprite 23--which I have a mainsail for. So I'm hoping that I can use it on the Snapdragon.  

For some reason the tabernacle mast base is still bolted to the mast, and not the cabin trunk. I don't know why...maybe the bolts were corroded and broke, or the PO wanted to re-bed the base?

I will have to keep a lookout for a reasonable trailer like yours with the low crossmembers that the keels can sit on. Yours appears to sit nearly a foot lower than mine, and that may translate into 8 or 10 feet less tongue length/ramp distance. Towing the boat felt heavier than expected, but much of that is the weight of this big trailer--another reason to find a smaller/lighter one. One dream is to eventually tow one of my sailboats down South in winter and to extend the all-too-short local sailing season. After towing this one 50 miles, even with the 1-ton dually diesel, I've got some serious reservations about towing it long distance with this trailer.

One thought that I had was that I might find someone who would let me park a sailboat/trailer in his yard over the summer, and I could trade and let him/her park a boat/trailer in my yard over the winter. When one doesn't have that much money invested in the boat, it seems like using it for only a month or two (or three or four) and to be able to drive South in any vehicle (not a heavy tow vehicle--or fly, take the train, or rideshare...), it would pay for itself in saved fuel cost, possibly in one season. Of course I could store it in a boatyard, as most do, but that gets into much more expense than my shoestring approach...

Then there is arranging one's life so that you can take a month or three and go South--saving up that cruising kitty and taking time off or closing your freelance business, or something. I met a fellow that works in a boatyard here in Maine in the Summer/Fall and then works in a yard in Florida during the winter. This seems like an ideal arrangement in that you are in each location during its seasonal busy season.

Well...now I have strayed off the Snapdragon topic already and into a more general one...one that may have already been discussed in an existing thread...    

 
BOAT                     I        J        P      E
SNAPDRAGON 26    30.0   9.5     25.0   11.4    
SEA SPRITE 23      25.0   7.8     27.0   11.2

[from http://www.mauriprosailing.com/techinfo/boatspecs/Rig%20S.htm]
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on December 01, 2010, 10:37:50 PM
Jim, finding the builders plate requires a bit of effort, but at 65 years and 200 pounds even I can fit into the port side cockpit locker in a seated position, facing forward, and see it almost at eye level attached to the inner hull.  Of course I need a flashlight to see it and perhaps several assistants to extract me afterwards.  It's worth the trip though - it's a wonderful way to get to really know your boat.

I'll try to remember to measure the boom on Puff tomorrow and let you know what I find.  An Englishman friend of mine, a knowledgeable chap, told me that my boom was a roller furler type that uses a small crank handle to roll up the main sail.  Of course internal corrosion has seized it so that I can't get it to turn.  I've installed a "Dutchman" flaking system on the main sail and that seems to work just fine.

You are one step ahead of me with the tabernacle base issue.  In checking the bolts on mine I found that the nuts are badly rusted on the throughbolts and the bolt heads will have to be ground off and driven through to remove them.  The bolts seem to be tight now, and strong enough to last for at least another year, so I'll put off removing them until I complete the Great Loop.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on December 02, 2010, 08:35:05 PM
OK guys, it's official.  The hull number on Puff is  SD26 192.  The boom measures 142 inches from the gooseneck attachment point to the end cap at the aft end of the boom.  Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 02, 2010, 09:23:33 PM
Bruce, Thanks for the boom length measurement. My boom is 121", so maybe I got the high performance high aspect rig with a shorter boom?  ;)
 
My boat is SD26-130. Thanks to you and Jake for telling me where to find the builder's hull number plate.

I've never found those roller reefing booms to work very well (slow, give poor sail shape, boom end droops down with deeper reefs) , and like the traditional reefing points, especially with the Jiffy Reefing setup.

I'm still wondering about the tabernacle mast base on the mast. The PO had no sailboat experience and may have just decided that this was the best way to disconnect and unstep the mast? Now I am thinking that I should measure the mast and see if it is the right one.

It's 27 degrees out there, tomorrows high is forecast to be 40 and then four days with snow ahead. Wish I was down there doing the Mini Loop...Ft Myers to Stuart to Key West...  :D   
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 02, 2010, 09:41:48 PM
In case you haven't found it yet, here's the link to...

Topic: Twin Keels Good or Bad?
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,1261.0.html

I'm going to have to read the whole thread to find out the answer...  ;)

Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: jakeindenver on December 08, 2010, 08:45:39 PM
Hey Guys... we've got a forum for Snappy's here in the states?  Sounds like a great idea.  It's interesting what your plates look like.  Mine is on the hull side of the port locker but is all numbers and one line.  I heard from Mike Shapard who is the technical director for the Snapdragon & Mirage Association over in England, that some of these were sold as partial kits so mine might have been finished outside of the factory.  Which might account for the difference in the serial plate. 

As I'm rigging my boat to hopefully compete in the Single Handed TransPac in 2012, I'm re-rigging my boat right now and have found some other differences from the factory specs.  I'd be very greatful if you two guys wouldn't mind taking a few "close up" pictures of your masthead assembly showing how the halyards run down and weather they're internal or external.  Mine is external with only one halyard running up and over.  The jib halyard runs through a block hanging on a tang just below the masthead.  I hear from some that they're masthead has a double path for both halyards running up and over the mast.  Please tell me and if possible show me how your rigs are set up.   

I have acquired the original sales brochure which is pretty cool to read.  If you're interested, send me a private message with your email and I'll email you a .pdf of it.  Thought you might be interested.

Here's the link to the Association.  I've joined and have found the help from Mr. Shepard very usefull besides he's a very nice guy and you can call him on Skype which works just great.
http://www.snapdragonmirage.org.uk/


Very cool to see this forum starting up and hope others join as well.  I'm linking this link to some forums overseas so some more Snappy's might join the fun.

Thanks,

jake
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 14, 2010, 11:17:14 PM
My first thought was to create a thread where we could talk about our boats separate from Bruce's cruise blog...and saw that there were other existing threads for specific boats, so why not one for the Snapdragon. I did wonder whether it would be best to title it specifically for Snapdragons, or about twin keel boats in general... I'm also a fan of the Westerly and Hurley boats.

I found this video of a Westerly Warwick sailing hard on the wind in a strong breeze,  with an interesting shot of the windward keel near the surface.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UySEGWaOKXk&feature=related

Jake, Here's one photo that I took from the ground (in the rain) of the masthead and it shows the external jib halyard block.

That's an ambitious goal, to be in the Transpac race. Glad to hear that you have had a good experience with the Snapdragon Association.

-Jim  
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: jakeindenver on December 15, 2010, 09:48:35 PM
Thanks Jim!

Looks like you've got the identical masthead as I do.

So it looks like I must have the original mast. 

Hey, I just received notice that the Snapdraon / Mirage Association just launched a new website in England with a forum so that will helpful as most of the Snappies are over on that side of the pond.

Here's the link to the new website: http://www.snapdragonmirage.org.uk/

They've linked their site to our new here too.  Hopefully between the two we'll get a health discussion about these little monsters!

Take care,

jake
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on December 17, 2010, 04:08:45 PM
Hi
I have  just joined your forum. I sail a Snapdragon 26 on the east coast of England. Here is  a link to a video of  a trip down the coast ( sorry about the  shakey film)
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMltxP_Aj_0
 
Nick
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: jakeindenver on December 17, 2010, 09:30:56 PM
Welcome Nick.  I love the video.  Looks like you've got a beautiful Snapdragon.  I'd love to speak with you if you don't mind perhaps sending me a message with your phone number I could skype you.  I have some rigging questions that I think you can answer.

Thanks,

Jake in Denver
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 18, 2010, 07:28:57 PM
Nick, Let me join in welcoming you aboard.

I'm impressed with how fast your boat is--7 knots on a close reach--especially for a hefty twin-keel boat. That is quite a suit of sails, and compact dodger.

Enjoyed the video, and hope that you will make and post more. Grog to you.

Jake, Glad that the photo of the masthead was helpful. That's amusing to think of these boats as little monsters...   A Sea Monster does seem tougher than a variety of wildflowers. ;)

-Jim

Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on December 20, 2010, 05:52:17 AM
Hi Jim

Thanks for the welcome. I have to admit though that the boat speed on the video is helped by nearly two knots of tide. Will post another short clip of the trip down the day before, was making over five knots against the tide that day so was impressed.

Nick
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on December 20, 2010, 12:56:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQK-9fBWnHA

Link to another shaky video clip of my SD26. Sorry I am no camera man.....
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on December 22, 2010, 05:22:02 PM
Hello!

I just joined the site and it's great to see that other SD26s actually exist.  My wife and I have owned and sailed ours for the past 3 summers here on Lake Michigan.

Before I forget, I see that Jim was asking about the outside width of the keels.  According to some documentation I recently found, the dimension is 5' - 2".  Inside is 4' - 8", and they're 5' -6" long.

Hope this helps.  I've still got some of the original brochures etc. that came with the boat 3 owners ago.

We plan to do some weeks of cruising up the Lake this summer and hopefully beyond.  I interested also in setting up the boat for mechanical self-steering.  It already can sail intself on some angles with the tiller tied down.

Happy to be a member of the group.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Yr.    :)

Ken in Milwaukee

s/v Hermitage  Snapdragon 26  ( I'll be looking for that hull number now )
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 22, 2010, 11:33:32 PM
Hello Ken, I look forward to hearing about how your SD26 was to sail on the big lakes, and feel free to post any photos. Here's a grog to you, to get you started.

Thank you for the keel dimensions. I was setting up a trailer to haul my SD26 out, but did not know the keel width dimension, and could only find a drawing with the plan view and profile (side view of the keel). I scaled a photo and got about 5 feet, and then Bruce measured his at 5 feet. So I extended the keel pad boards inward, and did haul the boat out several weeks ago.

Mine is a project. My total SD26 experience consists of motoring a few miles and hauling out. I can confirm that she does float. Wish that I had a space to work on a boat inside, so the winter wasn't such a long hibernation from sailing/working on the boat.

Nick, Enjoyed your most recent video. It is the first time that I've seen a mainsail  covers the boom like that, (or the blue color). Looks like you are sail/hull #91? Is your boat equipped with an inboard, or an outboard in a well?

I'm interested to hear about how the SD26s do in rough weather/sea conditions from those who have experienced them.

-Jim 

 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on December 23, 2010, 12:38:39 AM
Jim, the blue canvas along the boom is a zip up sail bag, with the lazy jack line system I can simply drop the main sail, it falls into the bag and can be zipped up. I will try to post a picture (not sure how yet).
Yes my hull no is 91 however I have yet to find a plate on the hull.
Freedom is equipped with an inboard 10hp Yanma diesel engine.
Seems to handle rough weather well, I think due to its weight.
Hi Shellback, I use a simrad tiller pilot, with the gps, it works well but does use a fair bit of power, great when motoring.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on December 23, 2010, 02:56:22 AM
http://nickjenner.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/0201.jpg


http://picasaweb.google.com/nicholasjenner/20101003?authkey=Gv1sRgCMzSp6eZv77tvQE





Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on December 24, 2010, 02:44:02 PM
Jim, Thanks for the welcome.

My SD 26 is the driest boat I've ever sailed for her size.  She's very stiff, and I've sailed in winds up to the lower 30 kt. range with reefed main and working jib quite comfortably.  I've been in lighter winds with up to 6 ft. waves with barely a splash on deck anywhere.  She doesn't sail as close to the wind as deeper keeled boats, but I don't mind the trade off of being able to sail where others dare not.  What I  like most is that she's really easy to sail singlehanded.
Nick, thanks for sharing your beautifully fitted boat with us.  I think it's great.  You've already given me a lot of ideas.  If you don't mind I'll have a ton of questions to ask.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on December 24, 2010, 03:07:23 PM
I'd like to post more pictures of the boat, but they're mostly in the 900 to 1800 KB range.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Captain Smollett on December 24, 2010, 05:00:58 PM
I'd like to post more pictures of the boat, but they're mostly in the 900 to 1800 KB range.

Couple of options: photobucket, or a similar image hosting site, then link to your pictures in your posts with the img tag.

Or, we have a similar 'service' right here on sailfar.  Up near the top of your window, you should see a line like:

Quote

News: Welcome to sailFar!  Links: sailFar Gallery ...


You can set up an account on the sailfar gallery and upload your pictures there, then link to them in posts here on the forum (similar to if you were using photobucket).
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on December 27, 2010, 02:16:25 PM
Hi Cat. S.,

I'd like to set up an account on the sailfar gallery, but don't know where to start.  I searched the gallery section but don't see any link to figuring out how to post.  Any help would be appreciated.  I haven't tried photobucket account I think it would be handier to do everything boatwise in the same place.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CapnK on December 27, 2010, 10:38:37 PM
Hi Ken -

Here's our big ol' Gallery thread with lots of info:

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,256.0.html

I will send you a PM with your Login info. :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 12, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
Has anyone out there in SD 26 land ever mounted a halyard winch on the cabin house?  I would think it should definitely be through bolted, but it looks like there's an inside liner on the deckhead of the house.  I don't know if I should bolt directly through the liner or cut it out and put in a backing plate of plywood or sheet metal or both.  Right now my main halyard leads back to the cockpit with no winch, and the jib halyard goes to a winch at the base of the mast.  This is OK, but I like to do a lot of singlehanded sailing so at least hoisting and dropping the jib from the cockpit would be nice at times.

I like the way Freedom is set up.

Any thoughts on the matter might be helpful.
 
Ken
S/V Hermitage SD #134
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on January 13, 2011, 10:46:29 AM
Hi Ken

I am going to check on my boat tomorrow, I will take a picture of how mine is fixed. I think that there is a small locker underneath where the winch is mounted so any backing plate would be hidden in the locker. I need to fix a backing plate under the clutch block as that is working loose, at the moment it is bolted through with just a washer and nut on the inside.

Nick
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on January 14, 2011, 03:06:44 PM
http://picasaweb.google.com/nicholasjenner/20110114?authkey=Gv1sRgCOvW56PPoeWaNw&feat=directlink

The pictures in the above link show how my winch is fixed

Nick
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 14, 2011, 03:08:25 PM
Thanks Nick,

I also see that things are a little different down below on your boat, like the bulkhead behind the settee at the table.  It looks like that would give more space to put in some shelving for navigation books or such.

I really like your dodger as well.  My boat used to have one that had a semi permanent wind/spray shield with a drop down cover, but I rather like the idea of it collapsing all the way down.  I've got to price one out.  I've sailed on other boats that had them and it sure makes life more pleasant to have the companionway open in a light rain or taking spray.

Do you have any kind of cabin heater?  Up here in the Great Lakes that would be a welcome addition as well.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 14, 2011, 03:26:05 PM
Got the pictures Nick!  I hope it wasn't too much of a chore to get in the cabinet.  The installation looks just like what I had in mind.  I never dawned on me that I could mount the winch right above the area if the cabinet.  This will keep things pretty simple.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Freedom 91 on January 14, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
Hi Ken

Yes I have an Eberspacher diesel heater, it is mounted inside the port cockpit locker against the bulk head, the exhaust exits the hull above the waterline and the heat is piped into the saloon. Heats the boat in no time but is a little noisy.

The area behind the bulk head in the saloon is the heads, it was changed before I bought the boat. By doing this the fore cabin is now a large double bed.

Nick

The following link is a video used in the advert when I purchased Freedom a couple of years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbqbzx31LHQ&feature=related

Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 16, 2011, 12:00:38 AM
Nick,

All I can say is lovely, lovely, lovely!  A great presentation for a great boat.  Thanks again for sharing the video and stills.  You've already given me a couple of ideas for some more improvements on the Hermitage.
Right now I'm working on getting something better to cook on in my galley.  I've got a two burner alcohol stove that isn't gimbaled.  I don't care for that or the alcohol.  I've also got a one burner stove on a Sea Swing that might be adequate.  Is yours LP gas or kerosene?


When I get the Gallery figured out perhaps I can put up some pics of my own.

Looking at those pictures really gets me itching to get back on the water but as I write this it's 13 degrees F. outdoors.  Our sailing season begins in May and ends about the middle of October, and sometimes that's stretching it.  What's yours like?

If I ever get to the UK I'll have to check out your sailing grounds.  The closest I ever came was as a cadet on a troop transport on a voyage from New York to Bremerhaven and return.  On the afternoon after leaving Germany the weather cleared just enough to get a peek of the White Cliffs of Dover.  The weather was very nasty the rest of the way home.  It was February 1965.  Later that night we rode over a 60 ft. wave south of Southhampton.  We had to slow her down some much we barely had steerage.

Cheers,

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: jakeindenver on January 21, 2011, 10:02:41 AM
Hey guys... been busy and haven't been on for a while.  Hey that's a great idea to put the winch up over the locker.  I hadn't thought of that either but am planning on put a winch up there too.

As for photos, here's  link to pics of my boat.  This is turning into a great discussion and the most I've seen regarding these little monsters.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16529561@N02/sets/72157625060122192/

Let's keep the photos coming.  they are definately worth a thousand words!

jake
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 22, 2011, 02:51:43 PM
Jake, Appreciate that you posted all those photos of your "monster". It was interesting to see your trailer setup with the bunks and guides that align the boat on the trailer so the keels can rest on those channel pads.

Nick, Enjoyed the video of your boat. I'm reminded of how much music can add to the images in terms of creating a mood. I was thinking...well isn't this a smooth translation of Bobby Darin's Somewhere Beyond the Sea, only to discover that La Mer is actually the original written in French many years earlier. (Like all those Bob Dylan covers of other artists' songs that turned out to be his... ;)) What's that quote... "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

Here's another of a French couple and song on a Centaur, a bit blurry, but captures that humor and Joie de vivre. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqQiX2sB_E4  
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 24, 2011, 08:28:33 PM
Great pictures everyone.  It's fun to compare all the little differences.

Ken

I've posted some of my own Hermitage on flickr.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd26
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on January 25, 2011, 11:19:51 AM
Hey Jake,

Now we know where Admiral Nelson hangs out!  I wonder if he ever bumps into Capt. Morgan.

Seriously though, great pictures!  I like the way the cover for the head folds out of the way.  Also, is that two burner stove alcohol fueled?  I've got a very similar one on the Hermitage.  It needs a little work though as the burners don't always stay lit.  I put a new leather on the pump, but I think the burners need work.

That's a nice looking, snug little anchorage you're laying too in the photos.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: jakeindenver on January 25, 2011, 09:08:21 PM
Hey Guys,

Ken, Nice photos - thanks!  I'd love to see more.  Is that the original tiller?  I'd love to see a close up.  Mine doesn't have nearly the curve it looks like yours and I've been thinking mine isn't original because it hits the benches when I turn.  I'd love measurements as I'm thinking of having one custom made.  I find your bowsprit very interesting.  I've thought of doing something like that. I'd also love to see inside if you don't mind posting some pics of that.  Also, a couple close ups of your mast head rigging would help too. 

As for my stove, it is alcohol and works but it's seen it's best days.  I recently bought an Origo 3000 non-pressure alcohol stove that I intend to put gimbals on and pot holders.  For winter I've taken all the wood out and am stripping and redoing all of it.  For a boat that many say has too little wood... it's sure a lot to strip.  The admiral is coming handy during all this work!
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on February 10, 2011, 03:18:24 PM
Hi Jake,

Sorry I haven't been on line in a while.  I'll see if I can dig up my interior photos and some of the tiller if I can find them.  Yeh, the tiller has a nice curve and as far as I know it's original.  I should be going down to the boat in the next week so I can take some measurements.

I've taken some of the access panels out of the boat for the winter and put a couple of coats of West System epoxy on 'em.  Now some fine sanding and they'll be set for a couple of seasons.

I'll have to check out one of those Origo 3000's if I can find them on line.

Keep up the good work.

Ken    8)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on February 11, 2011, 01:36:39 PM
Jake and all,

I've added some more pics at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd26

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: s/v Faith on February 11, 2011, 07:59:54 PM
Jake and all,

I've added some more pics at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd26

Ken

Looks shippy, and quite inviting down below.  ;D

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5257/5436383973_35c0c422cc.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5386397516_c431b9fffa.jpg)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: VermontSnappie on March 23, 2011, 01:31:04 PM
Hello All - thank you for dedicating something to the USA Snapdragons - I found this forum via the UK Snapdragon Site. I am an owner of a SD 26 - purchased about 5 years ago and sitting in my yard awaiting some work to be done. I am trying to get motivated to tackle some tough projects. Snow still on the ground here in Northern Vermont so too cold to do much fiberglassing. I would love to hear from other SD 26 Owners as I have numerous "problems" to solve and nary another vessel nearby to compare notes. Used to have an O'day 22 and had a much easier time finding information! Oh well, thats what happens when you choose a boat for its' unique character! Andrea
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on March 23, 2011, 03:01:26 PM
Welcome aboard, Andrea.

You are practically a neighbor. So I can relate to the snow and cold issue. A few more weeks, though, and it will be a great climate for working on boats.

Will you be sailing on Lake Champlain? I sailed on a friend's family boat out of Mallet's Bay years ago, and always enjoyed that area.

As you may have already read, the other SD26 owners have been very helpful in providing information, and I'm sure that you will find the same support. If you (using the "salami technique") pick a problem, describe it and if possible post some photos of your existing conditions, you'll get some ideas and suggestions to consider--and encouragement. :)

Looking forward to hearing more about your projects and progress. Grog to you to help get you started.

-Jim

PS: To pick up on Jake's references to the class as monsters, I guess that would make yours a Vermonster....  ;)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: s/v Faith on March 23, 2011, 03:25:17 PM
Hello All - thank you for dedicating something to the USA Snapdragons - I found this forum via the UK Snapdragon Site. I am an owner of a SD 26 - purchased about 5 years ago and sitting in my yard awaiting some work to be done. I am trying to get motivated to tackle some tough projects. Snow still on the ground here in Northern Vermont so too cold to do much fiberglassing. I would love to hear from other SD 26 Owners as I have numerous "problems" to solve and nary another vessel nearby to compare notes. Used to have an O'day 22 and had a much easier time finding information! Oh well, thats what happens when you choose a boat for its' unique character! Andrea

I am very glad you found us!

  Welcome aboard!  ;D
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: VermontSnappie on March 23, 2011, 08:09:31 PM
Thanks so much Jim - yes I am on Lake Champlain - in Charlotte - Point Bay Marina. Nice place, Malletts Bay, havent made much progress sailing that far with my family when the boat was in the water. We just liked puttering around and having picnics and enjoying the scenery and camping overnight. She sailed one season here when we moved here from Mass. in 2006. Then a nasty storm caught her overnight at the Marina Dock and made a mess of things on the deck and the furler got trashed and gave me the "incentive" to fix much of what hadn't been touched in years. She was purchased from a British gentleman who originally purchased her in 1969 and she was either sailed or delivered to Ipswich Massachusetts where he lived. He was the only owner of the boat until he passed away. She hadn't been sailed in 7 years and what a collection of stuff we pulled out of her. I liked the classic interior and "tubby" appearance. Having three children and dogs we needed a larger boat. I took a chance purchasing such a boat that needed lots of work. However, she seemed so sturdy compared to my O'Day.

Hey, I like the name Vermonster - you need a "monster" on the lake sometimes. I will try to get things together and post some "queries" and photos. Right now my boat has all hardware off the deck, all windows removed as they leaked terribly and of course those "cockpit hatches" are a mere memory of rotten wood. So, a big tarp is covering all, awaiting the grinder and LOTS of fiberglass.

I need advice on replacing the rubbing strake, which is mostly rotted away. It all through bolted and glassed over on the inside. I haven't any success in fixing the window frames, they are seriously corroded so am considering what to do with the windows. My husband hates the blue deck color, so considering painting after rebedding all the hardware and whatnot.

Time is short as we would like to get this boat back in the water before my children are grown. I have 4 years before they head to college. Time is flying by! Enough rambling, thanks for starting the forum and look forward to posting. Andrea
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: VermontSnappie on March 24, 2011, 07:24:57 AM
Hi Ken - like your photos - I have hull #170 here in Vermont on Lake Champlain. Boats up on the lawn right now, without windows, or deck hardware or much of anything since I attempted a "refit" two years ago. Anyhow, glad to see your photos, looks like mine - but in much, much nicer shape! Been conversing with UK folk for a while but nice to see USA SD owners getting together. Andrea
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: tomwatt on March 24, 2011, 08:42:52 AM
Glad you made it aboard!
Love the look of these boats, wish you well in getting momentum going on your project.
I know it's a struggle for me to get things done, as I tend to find it all too easy to just sit in the cockpit, start to relax, and then just melt into "oneness" with the boat. Hard to get anything done when you've become "part of the ship, part of the crew..."
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on April 07, 2011, 06:39:58 PM
You're welcome, Andrea. The last time that I sailed Lake Champlain was in your area in the fall of 2000. Went to the Shelburne Museum and the Cabot Cheese factory.

As Tom wrote, momentum is a big part of it. for me, when a project has been sitting it is an effort to re-kickstart the project. Keep envisioning how much fun you will have when you get it back in the water.

It may help to commit to a goal and time frame, such as this boat is going in on (say early June). Then decide what is essential and set priorities starting with the essential items, and be prepared to postpone the others to the future. Then work backwards to set a schedule. It's just a matter of time and effort. If your kids want to sail, ask for their help on the project.

I like to bring a radio out to the boat to listen to music or news. Make the environment fun.

As far as the individual issues...

If the roller furler is too expensive to repair and replacing it is too expensive for now. Why not use your headstay and hank-on jib(s). Find a decent used sail(s) online, Craigslist, EBay or from a used sail source like Bacon Sails. (I prefer the simplicity of hank-on jibs myself)

For the aluminum window frame - Is the corrosion bad enough to weaken it beyond reuse? If it is cosmetic, can you clean it up? On mine the frame has been painted/coated by a previous owner.
Maybe take the frame(s) to METALWORKS, Inc., Burlington, VT  
http://metalworksvermont.com/
To see about having them repaired or refabricated?

Rub rail - Mine appears to have been replaced with something like this...
PVC RUB RAIL WHITE 1.5"
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/pvc-rub-rail-white-1.5-20-lengths-*ups*-158347-/4,14842.html

Take a look at what charlie is working on for inspiration.
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3236.msg35569.html#msg35569

You take photos too and post them to share your boat issues and progress and to get other ideas.

Go for it!

-Jim


 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: VermontSnappie on April 27, 2011, 06:08:13 AM
Thanks Jim for the encouragement! Every day I look at the lake from my window. It is calling me. I can see sails in the distance....Anyhow, I am so glad to have found this little forum. Sometimes it is hard not having loads of others working on their same boat and sharing their war stories and successes.

I pumped out endless gallons of water when it finally melted inside the boat a couple of weeks ago that had poured in over the last two winters. The water came three inches up the "head" doorway. Frozen solid. My  leaky "tarp" and lack of windows really did her in this winter. Seeing the icebergs in her was so disheartening and the scope of work ahead just about had me posting an ad on craiglist "free boat" to take her away and abandon my hopes of sailing again. Then I decided that would be a cop out and not teaching a good example for my kids. So, in earnest,  I have started on her and have completed one window re-installation. Decided to go back to the old frames after I discovered the lexan I planned to bolt on as one continuous window wasn't cut right and wouldnt fit on the sides of the boat. I did take the frames to a local shop for some fixing, they werent corroded as badly as I had thought once I sanded and polished them up. After reading glowing reports about "butyl rubber tape"  I ended up using it for bedding the lexan since I couldn't get replacement gaskets for each window 'pane'. So far, only one tiny leak around one of the bolts - miracle! I didn't use interscrews, but rather nuts and bolts to secure the windows. The acorn nuts were so costly I just used plain old nuts. Looks okay.

Waiting to do second window when the frame is fixed up. I think I will take your advice and go with the hank on jib. I have to convert the former furler sail to a hank on. The rub rail shall be interesting to tackle. I was a bit horrified to discover just how much a rubber rub rail will set me back as that rail is pretty substantial in size.

Looking to find a couple of winches, some ubolts and some track for the genoa, whatever you call it. I stripped all the hardware off and now need to replace just the basics.

Did you ever fix your plywood cockpit seats? I seem to recall talk of them in a post? Mine have rotted completely and figure on just doing some quick fiberglass ones to keep out the water. Esthetics aren't going to be a consideration, just function.....

Well, I will try to post some pictures and will check back now and then when I remember....

Andrea
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on April 27, 2011, 02:42:37 PM
Hi Andrea, You're welcome. It's inspiring to see you repairing a boat that has been sitting and making headway toward getting it back in service.

That was one benefit of having a boat in a yard, since there was the social benefit of making friends with other boat owners around you who were getting their boats ready to launch.

On some of my boats, I've had a bronze bilge drain with a plug, even a half inch size will keep the water from building up. With the snow and winds, water can often find a way in past the tarp and giving it a way out has worked for me. If you don't have a drain (or want to install one), you can always pull the hose off the lowest through-hull and leave it open for the winter (or even remove the through-hull fitting to lower the "drain" point), and keep water from getting any higher than that.

This is just a quick reply for now, since I'm heading out for the evening soon.

Best wishes for your work in progress!

-Jim  
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Captain Smollett on April 27, 2011, 05:07:46 PM

Then I decided that would be a cop out and not teaching a good example for my kids.



Grog for sticking with it for a variety of reasons.

I believe you are going to end up with a beautiful boat that will give you and your family a tremendous amount of enjoyment.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on May 17, 2011, 10:16:32 PM
Hi Andrea, I agree with John...kudos to you for sticking with it and keep that vision of enjoying the boat in mind for inspiration.

Glad to learn that you are able to reuse the old cabin portlight windows and frames, at least for now.

As far as the cap nuts... Hamilton Marine (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/cap-nuts/2,912.html) seems to have some reasonable prices (about $30 for a box of 100 in stainless steel)

My SD26 does have some rough pieces of plywood covering the cockpit locker openings, so I will have to make some. I haven't given much thought yet, to what material to use. (I've just picked up a 20-foot daysailer/overnighter and for now my first priority is to get that ready to put in.)

I agree that the main thing for now is function over beauty, and to just get the boat in and use it, and making other improvements in the future. (Although the permanent cockpit locker lids may be a nice rainy day project that you can do after the boat is launched, once you have the measurements of the opening, etc.)

My friend's family boat was kept on a mooring (on Mallet's Bay, where there was a mooring field). That could save you considerable cost compared to renting a slip.  

I just saw this mooring (http://burlington.craigslist.org/boa/2350985318.html) for sale in your area. He is asking quite a bit for it, but it depends on how old and worn it is. It's the right size for the SD26.  Maybe the price is negotiable, and you can price (http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/mooring/2,88.html) a mooring setup and make a reasonable offer. I've seen comparable sized used mooring setups for about half that price in this area.

It's been a cold and rainy few days here, and probably in your area too, but next week it is forecast to be warmer and dry...better weather for working on the boats.

Good luck with your repairs.  :)
-Jim
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Captain Smollett on May 18, 2011, 05:58:35 AM
Jim,

Just out of curiosity, what are your mooring/anchoring laws up there?  Can you only lay a mooring in a designated mooring field?  Do you have to pay a fee or have a permit to lay a "mooring?"

I laid my own "mooring" in an anchorage and left the boat for 18 months. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,929.msg32651.html#msg32651)  I used regular anchors (per the Pardeys description in Cost Conscious Cruiser and as outlined in Eric Hiscock's Voyaging Under Sail).  It worked great and I could buoy the lines for day sails and short trips.

One of the nice things about this system was that when I left that state, I took my setup with me.  It took two hours to pull everything, but I did it all myself.  Both anchors were about 30 lbs or less.  Another nice thing was that total cost was well below the $700 for that setup in Craig's List (I already had one of the anchors).

The two anchors in my 'mooring' setup are my #2 and #3 cruising anchors, so I did not have $$ tied up in 'special' equipment.  I always have my 'mooring' gear with me.

So, if there are fees/permits for laying a "mooring," but one can anchor at-will, I suggest giving this method some consideration.  It's VERY secure, relatively low-cost and portable (much more so than single heavy-weight based moorings).

Some Holding Stats:

Lay on this setup for 18 months
Tidal waters, 5-6 ft range, with 2-3 knot currents
Several strong blows, including at least two storms carrying at least 50 knots of wind.

I can provide more details if interested.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on May 18, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
John (and Andrea), My experience is that the coastal mooring regulations are administered by the municipality through its harbormaster. Here is an example (http://www.capeelizabeth.com/harbormaster/Mooring_Regs.htm) from Cape Elizabeth, which is overseen by the Harbormaster in Portland, ME. It includes standards (http://www.capeelizabeth.com/harbormaster/Mooring_Standards.htm) for the mooring itself, which are typical for the anchorages in Casco Bay under the Portland Harbormaster (these sizes are lighter than I have used, so assume are minimum sizes [see on reread that they do say this, and for seasonal use only]). I've always used the more conservative Hamilton Marine mooring size standards (http://www.hamiltonmarine.com/t1.asp?page=124).

When I lived in Downeast Maine (East of Acadia/Mount Desert Island), the mooring regulation/admin was much more informal than (more affluent and regulated) Southern ME. Many of the boats there are working vessels in traditional harbors, and I think there is the philosophy that the boat owners can manage their own moorings (and care as much about their boat as anyone else.)

From my limited experience regulations for lake moorings vary by community, and may be the responsibility of the shorefront (home/camp) owner, and may be limited/controlled by access to the water.

Lake Champlain is such a large lake that it may have more regulations than the smaller lakes here in Maine. When I sailed on my friend's family 30-foot boat years ago, it was moored in a field in Mallets Bay, but I was not involved in any of the mooring arrangements, so don't know what the regulations were at that time. I also chartered a sailboat from a marina in Shelburne Bay (just south of Burlington). The last time I was there, about a decade ago, it was to stay at a family camp in the Southern part of the lake. I took my hosts sailing on a neighbor's 25-foot sailboat, which was moored off their camp (as were many sail and power boats). I suspect that many of the communities near the lake have public access at a nearby shorefront park (many with boat ramps), and that there are mooring fields available there. Andrea, I'm sure is more familiar than I about this.

I had what you describe in mind when I recently bought a Bruce 44-lb anchor that was for sale very inexpensively. It's much larger than needed for any boat that I own, but I thought that it might be useful as a storm anchor, or one to leave a boat on for a time. The last few years I've moored my boat (the Corinthian, this season I hope) at the south end of a local large lake. At the North shore (about 16 miles away) is a state park with campground and swimming beach, etc. In the past, I have camped out there with friends and anchored off the beach to keep a boat there for daysailing. I did put a small buoy on the anchor rode and left it in place and set to use, like a mooring, and that worked very well. The boat was only there while I was using the park, and it all seemed to be fine with the park, but I doubt that I could have put a permanent mooring there. I'm hoping to do that again this season.

My home mooring is a 200-lb mushroom anchor, on which I had kept my previous 18-foot sailboat, and plan to put the Corinthian on this season. The lakes are inland and usually doesn't get the kind of storms that the ocean does, and the fetch is limited so waves do not get as high, so I feel that the mooring does not have to be sized as conservatively.

I found two used 200-lb cast iron mushroom anchors that had very little wear on them, each for under $100 (less than half the cost of a new one then). When I was looking at the prices on Hamilton's yesterday, I saw that the new mooring anchor prices had increased by about 50% in a couple years. The value of the dollar is relatively weaker (imported anchors), and the commodity price of steel is up (domestic anchors).

My feeling is that if you can buy a used mooring anchor or complete mooring setup reasonably, than that is the way to go. I set my 200-lb mooring myself and I think I can pull it up (vertically, albeit with some difficulty) to relocate or service it.      

Here's a couple moorings currently for sale in MA for what I would consider reasonable prices (or nearly so)...
200-lb anchor (http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2342343066.html) anchor in Mint condition. Barely used. $150 (in Joe's area).
200-lb anchor setup (http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2332865184.html) for $400 (although older, so condition may be an issue).
300-lb anchor setup (http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/2381400585.html) for $400 (although the 3/8 chain is light and a heavier bottom chain should be added)

Anyway, these are in the neighborhood of half of that one for sale in Vermont. If you can wait awhile, you may find an even better bargain.

In these more strictly-regulated/administered mooring areas in Southern Maine, if you anchor for too long, and it is really functioning as a mooring, the Harbormaster will very likely ask (demand) that you get a mooring and an assigned spot, permit, and inspection. This was the case with the SD26 that I got from NH. The PO had kept it on anchors, and the harbormaster had eventually gotten after him. In that case it had been anchored for months. When I talked to the harbormaster he explained that it would not be fair to the other boat/mooring owners if he did not treat them all the same under the regulations, which I certainly understood.

I'm thinking that if I get ambitious and want to put a boat into the ocean this season (in addition to the lake), I could probably use the Hurley 18 and could just trailer-sail, maybe leaving it in and anchored temporarily if my plans called for it. My thinking is that if I just want to sail (day sail) then the big lake is fine. It might only make sense to launch the boat in the ocean in order to do some overnighting and modest cruising for a few days at a time--but that would mean anchoring at different places, so that works. Trailering the boat up to Penboscot Bay to combine sailing/overnighting with the Folk Festival, is a possibility.

I have a mooring in Down East Maine (the block and bottom chain, at least), so trailer sailing to it is an option. It is near my sister's cottage, but they have moved to Southern CA and now rent out their cottage in the summer and fall (sometimes staying there a couple weeks themselves). I have picked up a pickup camper which I could park on their roomy property, so that if the weather is bad part of the time I would have a place to stay on land with 120V AC for lights, etc. It's about a 4 hour drive there for me, and so far, the cost and effort involved to do it has not outweighed the ease of sailing locally on the lake.

I could perhaps see a scenario where if you purchased a boat in another area and had to get it out of a slip, and could not immediately sail the boat home, that the two-anchor temporary mooring would be an option. Or if the boat was in a place where you wanted to sail it later (say down South somewhere for us Northerners), and it did not make sense to invest in a permanent mooring (or was not possible/allowed).

However, I have found it to be a bit unnerving to have a boat moored so far away, such that it is not possible to check on it as often as I normally would. I was spoiled by for years having a mooring 1 mile from my house, so that I could be from doorstep to aboard in about 10 minutes. I remember reading the thread awhile back about anchoring long-term, and have not taken the time to reread it, but I may fall into the group that has difficulty achieving much of a comfort level with remote anchoring (or even mooring) where I could not check on the boat every couple weeks or so. If there was a local person that I trusted to check on it for me, then that would be okay.  

The concept that I continue to lean toward--even more so now that the price of fuel has gone up so dramatically--is the two-(cruising)boat scheme. One here for the summer and fall and one kept in a place that is warm in winter. At the cost of some of the boats that I've seen (own), I could not trailer the boat down once, nor motor down the ICW (never mind the time that takes, if the goal is to just get there). The typical thing to do is to pay to have the boat stored in a boatyard, and that might well be more economical and effort/hassle free than trailering or motoring. The frugal part of me wants to see if I could barter to store some Southern person's boat in my yard over the winter in exchange for storing my boat down South somewhere over the summer/fall. It seems like a potentially mutually beneficial arrangement, since this is generally regarded as a great place to sail in the summer/fall. Having the boat setup on a float-off trailer setup, and a tabernacle mast setup (both of which the SD26 does) would complete the package.

It's how to work out the rest of one's pre-retirement working life around the two-location concept, that is the most difficult. I did meet a man here that worked in a Maine boatyard during the busy late spring/summer/early fall seasons, and then in another boatyard in Florida during the busy late fall/winter/early spring seasons there. Seemed like an ideal arrangement. Of course, you'd want to have some time off to cruise and enjoy each area. Or maybe one could, with low enough living expenses, work 8 or 9 months here, and take off the 3 or 4 months over the winter to go South and cruise... The question always seems to come down to how do I get there from here...?
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Captain Smollett on May 19, 2011, 07:35:58 AM
Split off part of the mooring discussion to this thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3312.0.html).
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: shellback on May 22, 2011, 09:25:07 PM
 Welcome aboard Andrea!

It's great to hear about another SD26 getting fixed up. 

We just got in our third sail of the season today in a good 20+ knot wind out of the SE in Milwaukee.  We had the full main and a working jib up.  It made for a comfortable sail in a Snapdragon.  I think you made a good choice for a boat.

Looking forward to reading more about your new boat adventures.

Ken
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26 - my blog
Post by: VermontSnappie on March 12, 2012, 02:30:08 PM
Hello All! Still haven't made it back onto the lake - family things came first. I am determined to finish this spring. I even started a blog just to make myself feel as though I was making progress (slow). I have abandoned the idea of cosmetic upgrades and just want to make her sail worthy again. Lots of fasteners and deck hardware await. Still too cold to epoxy and fill in holes. I managed to get the windows back in and they are dry. Used lots of butyl tape (crummy RV kind, before I found the good stuff online), and fitted those old frames back in....Here's a link to my blog. Haven't put too many photos up yet. Was in the process  then my computer decided to corrupt the IPHOTO library.

http://vermontsnapdragon26.blogspot.com/

Andrea
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Tim on March 12, 2012, 05:05:11 PM
Good job Andrea, both on the blog and the progress. One has to learn patience with boats  ;) I know only too well. Looking forward to more.

Tim
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on March 13, 2012, 01:09:00 AM
Hi Andrea, Glad to get the update. Let me join Tim in congrats for what you have accomplished. It must feel good to have gotten the large windows/portlights back in. I am also planning to get a boat on my local big lake, Sebago. I have also thought about starting a blog myself, as a way to share and perhaps make it seem less of an isolated solitary experience. Have taken a glance at your blog and will read it more thoroughly soon. Your Snapdragon looks to be in much better shape than mine, especially the interior. Finally the long winter is over and spring has arrived, and working on boats outside is possible. I am eager to get to it.
-Jim
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on March 14, 2012, 05:04:07 PM
In response to your question about mast raising systems Andrea, I use what has to be the simplest, cheapest system ever.  It consists of two seven ft lengths of 3/4 inch galvanized pipe.  Just flatten the ends and drill a hole through each end.  Attach one end to the base of each forward lifeline stanchion with a shackle so that it can pivot down when the mast is raised.  Attach the forward end of the pipes to the end of the fore mainstay above the turnbuckle with a long bolt.  For mechanical advantage in lifting, I use the main sheet tackle attached from the end of the fore mainstay to the furling jib chainplate. 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on March 14, 2012, 05:39:59 PM
Here's a closeup picture of the attachment point at the stantion base.  I'm surprised that it doesn't chew up the deck, but so far not a scratch.  Just make sure that it is loose enough to self-align as it swivels, and that the pipes don't catch on anything on the way up or down.
Please note that I have installed a "gallows" on the stern to support the mast horizontally when down. 

My procedure is to :

First, slide the mast aft until the top tabernacle bolt can be installed through it for a swivel point.
 
Attach the aft and middle shroud lines to their respective chainplates.  They will tighten as you raise the mast.

Attach the mainsheet tackle to the lower end of the fore mainstay and the furling jib chainplate, making sure that the camcleat is at the bottom.   (This will keep the line in the jaws of the camcleat so that the mast will not fall if you loose your grip while lifting.)

Make sure that the aft mainstay is attached at both ends, and is free to rise with the mast.

You might want to have someone lift on the mast to get it started, and help guide it on the way up.  After it's about a third of the way up, the mast can be guided by pulling gently forward on either shroud line.

When the mast is vertical, install the bottom tabernacle bolt, connect the forward shroud lines and fore mainstay to their chainplates, and tension the standing rigging. 


Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on March 14, 2012, 06:56:33 PM
Yeah, I know it looks ugly, but this "gallows" contraption is my concession to old age.  It provides a support for the mast while trailering and makes raising the mast a one man job.  It also lets me lift out the outboard motor using a turning block and an electric winch mounted in the port cockpit locker. You can also see the small solar panel mounted on top.   It sure is handy to be able to lift heavy loads without the risk of injury.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: VermontSnappie on March 15, 2012, 06:27:11 AM
Those pictures are worth a million words! I cannot wait to set up the same on my boat! Thanks so much for taking the time to post the details for us!
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2012, 05:32:40 PM
Thanks alot Snapdragon!!!  I'm going to try that setup on my Venture 224.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Lost Farmboy on September 16, 2013, 12:11:41 AM
Hello, have a question for Snapdragon 26 owners:

What material is used for the ballast? (looking at one built in 1967)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on September 18, 2013, 08:17:36 PM
I was hoping someone with more factual information than I would answer, but since no one has raised their
hand yet i'll just make some noise.
As I understand it, the keels were formed as a part of the hull as a hollow void. They were then filled with a
mixture of fiberglass resin and lead shot or ingots to the desired weight.

I have heard anecdotal references as to the makeup and quality of the ballast as "whatever heavy stuff was
lying around at the time", but in view of the overall quality of these boats I feel confident in the quality of
the keels.


Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on September 19, 2013, 12:07:45 PM
Did VermontSnappie (Andrea) ever get her's done? Or did she fade away?
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on September 19, 2013, 01:45:10 PM
Did VermontSnappie (Andrea) ever get her's done? Or did she fade away?

I was searching for something about Snapdragons and found this blog...
http://vermontsnapdragon26.blogspot.com/
Haven't read much of it yet, but I think this may be her?
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Lost Farmboy on September 19, 2013, 01:57:37 PM
Bruce, thanks for the response, I'd seen some about the Snapdragons that inferred the "whatever heavy stuff" + resin  = ballast but could not confirm it. It's good to hear of your overall trust in the build quality, and that the ballast does not have a reputation for extra maintenance over time (as opposed to cast iron keels).

The reason for the question is that I'd run across a '67 Snapdragon 26 in the Vancouver, BC area and am considering taking a look at it.

Thanks again,
 Bryan
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on September 19, 2013, 05:44:39 PM
Yep, that's her. Her last post was in March, 2012, and she was last on the forum in January this year.

Wondering if she got her boat done.emailed her- we'll see
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on September 19, 2013, 06:29:18 PM
I was hoping someone with more factual information than I would answer, but since no one has raised their hand yet i'll just make some noise. As I understand it, the keels were formed as a part of the hull as a hollow void. They were then filled with a mixture of fiberglass resin and lead shot or ingots to the desired weight.

I have heard anecdotal references as to the makeup and quality of the ballast as "whatever heavy stuff was lying around at the time", but in view of the overall quality of these boats I feel confident in the quality of
the keels.

From what I can see, the Snapdragon keels were integrally molded with the hull and internal ballast added. Cannot tell what material or the construction of the ballast. Was not able to find (after a brief search) any accounts online of the construction.

On my Hurley 18 (also a British builder) single keel it appears that the ballast was a large piece of molded cast iron with steel straps added (recessed into the ballast) that extended upward against the hull bilge and were glassed in place. A design to hold the ballast in place during a knockdown, I assume. 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Snapdragon on September 19, 2013, 07:41:41 PM
Bryan, please make every effort to check out the 67 snappy. I would love to see pictures of it, both inside and out. I am sure that you will be impressed with both the sturdiness and utility of these boats. I am certainly enjoying mine and find that it's design is particularly well suited for cruising here on the Gulf Coast.
I have, on occasion, subjected Puff to contact with a hard sand bottom while anchored in very shallow water with an outgoing tide and a moderate chop- - a terrible thing to do to a boat. The sturdiness of the keels has been well proven, and close inspection has shown no ill effects. May it always be so! 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on September 19, 2013, 08:22:48 PM
Yep, that's her. Her last post was in March, 2012, and she was last on the forum in January this year.

Wondering if she got her boat done.emailed her- we'll see

Got an email back. Boat is still sitting in driveway. She's working two jobs, and has little time. But still has the boat ;)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on September 20, 2013, 10:35:48 PM
Got an email back. Boat is still sitting in driveway. She's working two jobs, and has little time. But still has the boat ;)

Charlie, She must be glad that you checked in on her progress. We're at a bit of a disadvantage up here with the short season...same months that are good for working on boats outside are also good for sailing and doing other outdoor activities. Unless you have a nice building (or build one as Colin suggested) to bring a boat into to work on over the winter months. Nice thing about the SD26 is that with its 2.6 foot draft, it is low enough that one could bring it into a standard 24-foot garage and build a light wood frame and poly bump out over the door to enclose the boat and space and work in it over the winter.   
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Lost Farmboy on October 08, 2013, 09:58:06 PM
Looked at "Snapdragon", a 1967 Snapdragon 26 this last Saturday. I am see-sawing back and forth on whether or not it makes sense to purchase her.

Question for Snapdragon owners:
-Is it true that these boats are built without any coring, even topside?

She definitely feels like a smaller boat in interior space and from outside compared to the Westerly Centaur (same length). The Snapdragon's layout as built is superior, especially like the use of space in the area which is normally occupied by a v-berth and the use of wood interior with less use of GRP liner. The outboard well is also something that I like, with remotely mounted controls (on forward side of outboard well) permit operation of motor with well hatch shut. Having keels that are not bolted on or cast iron is another plus over the Centaur. Draft is ~2.5' vs ~3' for Centaur, understandable based on size/weight differences. Centaur definitely feels more stable, just based on examining Snapdragon from alongside the dock. This Snapdragon is far more "complete" in her finish/readiness than my Centaur is. The "doghouse" that the first owner added to "Snapdragon" is a nice touch for the NW, and here is a picture for that reason, if for no other.

*Edit*
To answer expected questions, here is a description of the doghouse - Made at least in part of wood, probably plywood, did not examine closely enough to determine exact construction method. Holes allow for handrails, hatch, and lines to run through the doghouse. Clear plastic (acrylic or other) panels have been made for installation inside each of the doghouse "window" openings whenever desired.

Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on October 11, 2013, 01:13:48 AM
Looked at "Snapdragon", a 1967 Snapdragon 26 this last Saturday. I am see-sawing back and forth on whether or not it makes sense to purchase her.

Quote
Question for Snapdragon owners:
-Is it true that these boats are built without any coring, even topside?
From the openings on the boat that I have seen, the cabin trunk appeared to be of solid fiberglass laminate. I assumed that the deck also was, until I recently read of possible deck core issues in the blog of the SD26 in Vermont, so I would want to check that. Some British boats, like the Hurley 22, were built by several builders and may have used different construction materials and methods. This can be true of domestic boats have as well, such as the Alberg Seasprite 23 was built by various builders over the years...Wickford, Bristol, Pearson, C E Ryder, etc.

Quote
She definitely feels like a smaller boat in interior space and from outside compared to the Westerly Centaur (same length).

Although the same length and beam, the Centaur is about a ton heavier than the Snapdragon, so there is a considerable difference. In addition the Centaur's draft is 6" deeper, and its heavier keels are splayed out to give it more self righting moment, and a bit more efficient lateral plane since the downward one is more vertical when heeled. (Although this does make trailering more difficult, since the bottoms of the CR26 keels are the same width across as the center of standard trailer wheels, whereas the SD26's are vertical and spaced only about 5-feet apart, fitting nicely within standard tandem trailer wheels/fenders.) These differences are reflected in the boats capsize ratios, the SD26's being marginal at 2.0, as I recall.

Quote
The Snapdragon's layout as built is superior, especially like the use of space in the area which is normally occupied by a v-berth and the use of wood interior with less use of GRP liner.
I also like the SD26's layout and interior construction. The CR's cabin ceiling was finished with a vinyl cloth that eventually comes unglued. Some remove it and then you have the rough/unfinished fiberglass of the deck mold left exposed. I've seen some covered with wood ceiling or just sanded and painted. The SD does have a nice ceiling liner under the cabin trunk. It also do have more wooden cabinetry without a liner, providing better access to the hull interior. The forward layout that separates the V-berths and moves them mostly into the main cabin does seem quite practical in terms of making them better/more comfortable sea/at anchor berths--although at the expense of separate cabins. Although the privacy offered by separate cabins in a 26-foot/5,000-lb boat is probably fairly limited anyway. It DOES provide a large forward head space, rode/chain locker, and sail storage space (which many forward cabin/V-beths become in practice at any rate.) I find the SD feels just about as roomy a layout as the CR.


Quote
The outboard well is also something that I like, with remotely mounted controls (on forward side of outboard well) permit operation of motor with well hatch shut. Having keels that are not bolted on or cast iron is another plus over the Centaur. Draft is ~2.5' vs ~3' for Centaur, understandable based on size/weight differences. Centaur definitely feels more stable, just based on examining Snapdragon from alongside the dock. This Snapdragon is far more "complete" in her finish/readiness than my Centaur is. The "doghouse" that the first owner added to "Snapdragon" is a nice touch for the NW, and here is a picture for that reason, if for no other.

If I was going to do a lot of offshore or ambitious coastal sailing, then the Centaur offers more stability and the seakindliness that it extra displacement and draft provide. However, If I planned to do much inland/ICW and less ambitious coastal sailing, and especially if I planned to trailer the boat, the lighter Snapdragon offers much convenience, in addition to its interior/layout features. The SD's rig is a bit smaller/lighter and would be easier to raise and lower (both have hinged/tabernackle bases), and this is a nice feature for inland cruising and trailer sailing.

The largish doghouse, or fixed dodger, is a nice feature for normal cruising, although again, in severe offshore conditions it would add some additional windage to an already somewhat marginally stable boat (by offshore standards in ultimate survival conditions).

I agree that the outboard well at the aft cockpit on the SD26 is a nice feature. Every CR26 that I have seen had originally had an inboard (almost all the Volvo MD2B). Some have later been fitted with transom-mounted outboard motors with remote controls, probably when the original inboard wore out. The SD's OB well seems more convenient, versatile, and visually and functionally integrated, and may provides more security from outboard theft than a bracket. With the well you could use remote controls (as you say), or not.

One other nice feature that the SD has is a large skeg that protects the rudder from being struck by floating objects and also takes the weight of the boat in drying out situations--which is one of the benefits/features of twin keels. Other than maybe the latest years, the CR is a free hanging rudder, which gets no protection from the offset twin keels (as a rudder on a conventional single keel boat does).

In offshore conditions, the large main cabin portlights of the SD even though fitted with stiffening strips of metal would give me some concern, compared to the smaller individual ones on the CR. Yet the views out from the dinette and light the large ones provide is a nice feature for less rigorous use.

So in many respects the designs are consistent, with the CR being more intended for the offshore end of the spectrum and the SD more for normal coastal and inland use. Yet I've seen videos and read of SD's doing ambitious sailing, and seem quite capable, with a skilled and experienced skipper and crew. Of course, that is always a big factor, as well.

Just my own views, having been interested myself in how they compare for some time. YMMV.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on October 14, 2013, 03:26:47 PM
Here's a copy of a comparison (http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html) of the Snapdragon 26 and Centaur 26, which quantifies the considerable difference in Displacement, Capsize Ratio, Displacement to LWL Ratio, and Motion Comfort.

There's a good explanation of these terms here...
http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on October 14, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Thinking a bit more about a possible comparison example (similar waterline lengths and beam but substantial difference in displacement/draft) between two more commonly known and experienced boats...and came up with this...between an O'Day 23 and Pearson Ariel 26...
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Lost Farmboy on October 23, 2013, 10:48:54 PM
Thanks for the responses Jim! Just a few counter statements on Centaur vs Snapdragon -

-Hull interior access- Same access or better access for the Centaur, from what I have seen on mine. The only areas that are not accessible as built on the Centaur are below the icebox, below the head and hanging storage section (about 3 ft of boat length), below the v-berth "standing" area, and below the water tank. All other areas can be accessed through hatches or the engine compartment. However, the ceiling liner and having a mix of GRP and wood for the interior are features on the Snapdragon that I greatly appreciate.

-Main cabin portlights- Snapdragon portlights and the GRP surrounding them seem more durable to me. Although they are far longer individually than the Centaur's portlights, the Snapdragon's portlights are only about 2/3 as tall, at most, as the Centaur's. Add to this that the fiberglass surrounding those portlights is fairly thin on the Centaur (less than 1/4") and vertical, and it looks to me like the Snapdragon has a better arrangement for the portlights.

Thanks again for the responses!

Proud (new) owner of Snapdragon 26 #71, "Snapdragon"
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on October 31, 2013, 12:23:03 AM
You're welcome, Bryan,

On hull interior access, the Centaurs that I've seen have a large cabin fiberglass liner including the sole, berths, galley cabinets, etc.

The early Centaurs with the "A" [dinette] Layout have some removable panels to the hull...I was going to write "bilge" but since the keels are off to either side it is more like the belly of the hull where there is just a few inches below the cabin sole. there is some access to the hull through more panels under the dinette and via doors in the dinette seat ends. On the newer models with the "B" layout there is a large cabin sole of fiberglass with no access panels at all. The Centaur is well regarded as a design in general, but this lack of access to clean the bilge/belly does seem like it could be a problem. Still, I haven't heard any specific complaint about it.

The Snapdragon has a removable cabin sole and wooden cabinets, settee berths, etc., providing better access to the hull, I would say.

The SD has the cabin trunk ceiling liner (which has held up better than the Westerly vinyl fabric). It could be that this liner makes the SD cabin trunk sides near the portlights seem thicker than the Centaur. Again, in very rough offshore conditions where the portlights could be pounded by seas, having the very long ones that the SD has would make me concerned. But as I wrote before, it is a nice feature for more modest coastal and inland sailing. Again, SD26 seems like a fine (coastal) cruising boat in many ways, but was never intended to be an offshore capable design, as the Centaur is.

Similarly, the O'Day 23 (in the other specs comparison) is a popular boat, roomy, easy to trailer with its stub keel/centerboard and lighter displacement, but not offshore capable in the way that an Alberg Ariel 26 is generally regarded to be.

Anyway, for almost all of the (coastal/semi-sheltered) sailing that I've done, the Snapdragon would be more than adequate, and has the advantage of being much more trailerable, and having shallower draft for gunkholing, etc.

So congratulations on getting the Snapdragon. I'm sure that you'll enjoy her. :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Lost Farmboy on November 07, 2013, 12:19:17 AM
Jim,

The reason that I probably have a different view on the Snapdragon's accessibility is that the lower part of the cabin sole appears to have had 2 removable panels which have had their locations glassed in.  Existing panels are one under each dinette seat (aft one for accessing batteries), and one in each quarter berth. Remainder of access must come from "engine compartment" (though it has never held an engine), chain locker, or cabinets. Yours could be different, either due to build date or decisions by previous owners.

Centaur #83 does have the full fiberglass liner with minimal woodwork. For access, she has 3 removable panels in v-berth, and 13 removable panels in the main cabin (3 under each quarter berth, 1 where icebox was at, 1 under each dinette seat, 1 under dinette table, and 3 in cabin sole) plus access through the (former) engine compartment and doors under the sink. The only areas where I could not access all portions of the hull were under the head & hanging locker section, and the cabin sole in the v-berth. All but the cabin sole panels and forward v-berth panel (chain locker) access useful storage space, with the dinette seats compartments each being large enough for my 5'11" self to fit inside with ease, and the now empty engine compartment containing a massive amount of space as well.

The lower area where water may collect (like you said, bilge is not quite accurate) are divided into 3 areas, which prevents water from collecting in a common area for a pump. These areas range from level with the cabin sole (requiring one 3/8-ish" thick access panel to be shaped to permit space for the hull) to about 3 inches at the deepest. Having an actual bilge in the Snapdragon, with a common area for any water to collect, is a nice change.

Looking back at what I've written, I don't like to see that I'm arguing over these things, but I feel like I ought to defend the Centaur's design where I know it was successful. At least for #83, they were successful in providing a full fiberglass liner that provides good access to the hull interior.

Thanks again Jim! :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on November 07, 2013, 05:52:54 PM
We may be thinking about different ideas of "access". I didn't say so but was thinking mostly about access to the hull below the waterline, especially in the bilge (or belly) area.

It is one thing to be able to reach into an access panel and be able to get to something that is stored there. But this is different from being able to have complete access to a large area of the hull, so that you could easily clean it, or refinish it [use a sander on it], or if there was some damage, to be able to repair it--grind down and lay up fiberglass over that area.

The 1969 (first year of production) Centaur (with the "A" layout) that I'm familiar with does have several removable access panels in the fiberglass cabin liner sole. The 1973 model with the "B" layout has a larger cabin sole area, and has none of these access panels that the earlier boat has.

This is typical for other (Larent Giles designed) Westerly boat models of the 70s that I've seen, including the 21.5-ft Warwick and 23-ft Pageant. There is very little to no access to this belly space beneath the cabin sole, and there seems to be no way to remove the sole liner, as it is part of a larger interior liner.

On my Snapdragon, the central cabin sole, inboard of the dinette and the galley cabinets, is entirely removable, and has some traditional floor timbers to support it. This provides complete access to this large bilge/belly area. This may be why my impression is that it provides better access than the Centaur.

My 1975 Cape Dory Typhoon also had a cabin liner including the cabin sole, which limited access to the hull interior. The later CE Ryder built Alberg Seasprite 23s have a similar cabin liner, whereas the earlier SS23s by other builders had no liner and the interior was wood that was mostly removable with some parts tabbed to the fiberglass hull, or attached to (partial or full) bulkheads.

I suspect that in mass production (Westerly built about 2500 Centaurs in 10 years, or about 1 each business day) it was faster and less expensive to make cabin liners (including soles) than to build the interiors as wooden joinery. Also, the liners offer a smooth surface that is easy to keep clean.

Maybe the design never anticipated that people would still be maintaining and restoring Westerly boats after 50 years...that they would become classics somewhat like Albergs or Rhodes designs...?

I do favor the older style construction that allows you to remove joinery: a settee berth, cabinet, or a wooden cabin sole, and expose the virtually the entire interior of the hull. Yet this wasn't a deal-breaker when I was looking at the SD26 and CR26. Sometimes a design may be successful in spite of some shortcomings, since it has so many other positive characteristics and features.

I see this as just an interesting discussion about boats and design, not an argument. I do like both the SD26 and CR26 designs overall, though for somewhat different purposes, as discussed in earlier posts.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on November 07, 2013, 06:10:49 PM
My Seafarer Meridian had a glassed in pan in the main cabin, hiding the bilge- zero access. And the keel bolts were under there. I cut it out, added 12 new bolts (in addition to the original nine ;)) and put in a removable wooden sole. Strips of oiled teak. 5 screws and it's all out.

In addition, I gained an inch and a half of head room :D
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on November 07, 2013, 08:55:22 PM
In addition, I gained an inch and a half of head room :D

That's a win-win...access and more headroom. Nice work.  :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Ghostyman on December 28, 2014, 05:14:45 PM
My Snapdragon 26 (hull #99) had the engine torn out and the engine compartment converted to storage. Does anyone have pictures of the area I can use to rebuild the area. Needed are approximate engine mounts, battery and wiring placements and anything else you can supply. I really appreciate anything you can provide
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 30, 2014, 01:34:00 PM
Welcome aboard, Erik. :)

Since the SD26 is only about 4500 lbs base displacement (less than an Meridian or Ariel 26), many would suggest considering a refit to an outboard motor. I would expect that an outboard motor/well refit would cost considerably less than an inboard diesel.

I have not seen an inboard version in person, but see that the drawing shows and notes the outboard area well cover noted as "Outboard Well or Locker", so that should help. [See photo below of drawing, and outboard well, with cover removed]

One issue would be that on the outboard versions, since the well/outboard is located directly over the rudder, the top of the rudder slopes down at maybe a 45 degree angle, and perhaps starts a bit lower, to provide a space for the outboard lower unit/prop above the rudder blade. So to replicate that factory outboard arrangement, you may have to cut that rudder top in a similar way. (I have photos of the outboard rudder setup at home, but am not there now, and could not find another photo online).

The alternative would be to install an outboard motor/bracket on the transom and leave your rudder as it is. I do like having the easy access to the motor from the cockpit that a well provides--especially for manual pull starting, or if you may want to turn the motor a bit when maneuvering in tight situations...

One can setup a motor on a transom bracket with remote for throttle/start/gear select, but if you should need to manually pull start, that can be difficult.

I find that the well makes it easier to lift the motor out to service it, while standing in the cockpit, especially compared to lifting from a bracket while hanging out over the pushpit rail doubled over, or from an unstable dinghy. Also the outboard is more secure in a well with a locked cover, compared to hanging out on a bracket.

When you have an inboard, you usually have to bring the whole boat to any mechanic for servicing (unless your mechanic makes "house calls"), and that may mean a very limited choice of mechanics. With an outboard, you can pull it out and take it anywhere you want, or even replace it fairly easily. This is especially handy if you are on a cruise, and want to fix things quickly and keep going.

There are some advantages to inboards, especially in larger boats...say over 8 or 9k base displacement, but for a coastal cruising boat of your size, modern reliable outboards have many advantages. 4-strokes are quiet and fuel efficient, and although larger than their 2-stroke ancestors, if you are building you well, you can just make itas large as you need to. I would expect that an 8 hp would be ample (I believe Charlie uses a 6 hp 4-stroke on his Meridian, but you have a bit more beam, windage, and drag with the twin keels, so might go a step larger.)

Here's a link to James Baldwin's website, boat projects section, where he builds some outboard wells (on a Taipan 28, and even an Alberg 35)
http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/249-outboard-1.html
He infills the hull surface around the lower units, which must decrease drag, but would of course fix and prevent the motor from being rotated. His boats seem mostly optimized for offshore voyages, when you are sailing most of the time, and I expect maneuverability is less of a concern than a coastal/inland waterways cruiser, where you will be anchoring/mooring/docking a lot.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 30, 2014, 02:35:39 PM
Don't want to leave the impression that you have to get a 4 stroke. I know that Charlie loves his (the quiet and fuel economy). I think that it was Craig that wrote that he had gone back to a 2-stroke, if I recall due to its simplicity and ease of repair.

For me, tightwad that I am, a new 4 stroke was never a comfortable option. Last summer I picked up a Circa 1990 Johnson 9.9 extra long shaft with charger as part of a trade for about $300. I saw another similar one locally in CraigsList for $250. I thought about picking it up as an interchangeable spare motor. Would fit the same bracket/well, tank/hose, etc.

At these prices a substantial repair/component replacement can be upgraded to a total-motor replacement without a lot of agonizing and grief. The scrap metal/ballast value of a dead Johnson 9.9 must be close to $100, anyway...

One thing on the SD26 outboard well being directly over the rudder is that you have to position the motor height properly. If it is too long the rudder will hit the lower unit bottom and not go past amidships, unless you lift the motor up. (I found this less than ideal from a convenience standpoint, after awhile... ;))

With a transom-mounted motor, the deeper super-ultra-extra-long shaft the better you can raise it and yet keep the cooling water intake port submerged, and reach it to pull start when your electric starter craps out on you or the battery goes dead. But in wells over rudders height does matter. I would design the outboard clamping block with some ability to adjust the height, for the initial motor, and also for when you have to do the inevitable-total-outboard-replacement in mid cruise, to another used motor that may have a different height/shaft length.  ;)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on December 30, 2014, 03:16:56 PM
Jim- I  use an 8 HP. I WOULD have gotten a 6, but- there were none available in the entire southern Louisiana when we got this one, and we had a dead engine-Choice was buy an engine or truck the boat home- you are NOT gonna sail much in the ICW in Louisiana. Plus we'd had TWO used two strokes die on us on this same trip. The Yamaha was the third engine on the one cruise.  So I bit the bullet and bought a new engine. I  chose the Yamaha mostly because of the gear shift on the engine tiller, since it lives in a well on Tehani. I have NEVER been sorry. You can see the gear shift in this pic. The rubber part of the handle has been shortened by half from original. Now it no longer interferes with a locker latch :)

Additionally, at that time the 6 was a 2 cylinder and weighed exactly the same as the 8. NOW the 6 is a single cylinder and is closely associated with the 4 HP

Two cylinder engines are far quieter, and have far less vibration  than singles.

As for fuel economy- if you are traveling much under power ( read ICW) it can make a HUGE difference. With my old 9.9 Evinrude 2 stroke I was burning a 3 gallon tank of fuel about every 2 hours 40 minutes. (we had two 3 gallon  tanks installed) And carried three 5 gallon jugs of fuel in the cockpit. With the 4 stroke I got just under  8 hours off the same 3 gallon tank.  Have since upgraded to a pair of 6 gallon tanks, usually filled to five, and 2 - 2.5 gallon jugs in the cockpit. I think in the long run, the fuel savings have more than paid for the extra cost of the Yamaha
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 30, 2014, 07:54:37 PM
I  use an 8 HP. I WOULD have gotten a 6, but- there were none available in the entire southern Louisiana when we got this one...
Oops, My Bad. I did remember that there was a contest between the two...but my memory must have watched the video with the Alternative Ending where you bought the 6 hp motor...2 cylinder, of course...

...we had a dead engine-Choice was buy an engine or truck the boat home- you are NOT gonna sail much in the ICW in Louisiana
Was pretty sure you didn't give much consideration to solving the problem by deciding to sell Tehani and find another boat with an inboard diesel...

As for fuel economy- if you are traveling much under power it can make a HUGE difference. With my old 9.9 Evinrude 2 stroke I was burning a 3 gallon tank of fuel about every 2 hours 40 minutes. With the 4 stroke I got just under  8 hours off the same 3 gallon tank.  I think in the long run, the fuel savings have more than paid for the extra cost of the Yamaha...
So from 1.12 gal/hr to 0.38 gal/hr...about triple the fuel economy? That is huge. Not just the 4 cycle vs 2 cycle factor, but maybe also reflects that the 9.9hp was far larger than you needed for you boat...?
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on December 30, 2014, 08:55:00 PM
 ;D ;D

As is the 8 HP actually. I usually cruise with the throttle set right at the "start' setting, which gives me hull speed. And I have the standard prop. But the 6 would have been the same weight, so no gain.

Now if they'd make the FOUR HP in a 2 cylinder --- ;D

And I have pushed Tehani with a 2.2 Merc.. Took a LONG time to get speed up, and even longer to stop- longer? forget it.  ;)

Oh, and the only gain I see I would realize with a hi torque prop would be in reverse. And I know just how far Tehani fore reaches, so I seldom even have much need for reverse, except for backing out of a slip. I've thought about one, but have been afraid it would screw up the fuel economy.

Back in the 50's an OLD timer ( I guess that's me now ;)) told me- "son- drive the boat like you don't HAVE reverse- then if you ever need it,, it MIGHT work for you". I've always remembered that.

Court is still out on the new prop  :)

Oh, and on the 9.9. Yes it was way large. We started the trip to Florida with a Merc 7. It died on us before Intercoastal City, La. Made it in (through locks even) running on one cylinder. Had a friend there who had a Merc, and he pulled the part we needed off his engine- we made 4 miles and THAT crapped.

Found the used 9.9 there, installed it and went on to Fla. On the way back THAT engine crapped, again as we were coming into Intercoastal Was really sick of used engines by then, as you can imagine. Same friend hauled us around til we found the Yamaha. Couldn't really afford it, bought it anyway.

Laura was having a real fit about the problems


This was the first cruise after we relaunched Tehani.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on December 30, 2014, 11:31:04 PM
Charlie, That is one of the things about this region is that I've been fortunate to have moorings that were in areas where I can sail off and back onto them. With my old 30-footer it was in a rural area without a lot of boats, but a lot of tidal range and current. There were times when I'd go sailing and never start the motor at all. Also enjoyed doing this in the more crowded anchorages of Portland Harbor, especially in the Typhoon 19. I've had reason this last season to appreciate again how great that little boat handled in all conditions, and always did what you wanted it to do...no surprises.

This works great for day sails, weekending, and cruising around here, especially without a schedule. I can see how needing to get places on the ICW, through drawbridges and locks, is completely different...
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on December 31, 2014, 10:14:44 AM
Being able to sail off a mooring would be great. Unfortunately I can't recall ever SEEING a mooring anywhere in Texas waters. Nor Louisiana, Miss, or Georgia.  All marina berths.

Here where I keep Tehani there is a 5 mile channel, 60 feet wide, with shallows each side, full of oyster reefs. AND leaving the marina, it's almost always dead to windward into the prevailing SE winds. So we motor out for close to an hour. Of course coming BACK is usually a sleigh ride all the way into the marina.THEN we sail.

There's another marina, on the next bay over, where you can start to sail right outside, or even inside the marina. but it's an hours drive away and more expensive. So you gain nothing.

But when cruising, and when I can, I take a lot of pride in sailing in to anchor, and sailing the anchor out. And Tehani is yar enough to do that, as was Necessity.

Also- sad to say, there are marinas now that don't allow sailing in the marina!! Liability issues I presume, but still. I once was on the Sharpie (Now Traveler), engineless and got told I could not sail the boat inside the breakwater- had to PADDLE her in and out.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 02, 2015, 11:21:19 PM
Here are a couple photos of the Snapdragon 26 outboard motor, well, and rudder.

Looking at these photos, it occurs to me that one reason the outboard well is located directly over the rudder, is that the hull design does not have the kind of stern counter/overhang in which to locate the outboard. The transom is not far aft of the rudder so there is little space to separate the rudder and well. Perhaps because these British twin keeled boats like this are not designed to a racing rule as some of the US boats, which focuses on the waterline length and there is not much penalty for the hull bow/stern overhangs. These twin-keel boats appear to be designed to maximize waterline length/beam aft/transom size (and interior volume) for a given overall length. If one is paying for winter storage by overall length (as is also often true here in New England), it may offer the most cruising volume for a given cost of slip/storage cost. 

   
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 02, 2015, 11:40:29 PM
Here's a photo of an Alberg-designed Bristol 27 showing how its outboard well is in the counter, aft of the rudder and the waterline.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 02, 2015, 11:57:07 PM
I did find this photo online of a Snapdragon 26 inboard, showing the bed mounts. This must be a replacement motor...maybe a Yanmar model 1GM diesel?

 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 03, 2015, 01:16:06 AM
So...although I do believe it is worth considering an outboard motor with either an new well/reworked rudder or transom-mounted bracket, re-powering with a small inboard diesel is of course an option.

Grime's disappointing experience may be a cautionary tale of an inboard diesel going bad at considerable expense and frustration...
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=4368.0

In response he also worked on a conversion to a transom-mounted outboard motor with remote control. You would have the advantage, in a conversion to an outboard, of having a boat nearly half the displacement of his--and if a transom-mounted outboard bracket, of having a transom that is not as tall, and without the tall FG molded-in cockpit combing.

Obviously, many others have positive experiences with their inboard diesels, and find them reliable and economical. Your boat is already roughly set up for one. Even small new diesel motors are a substantial investment.

As Charlie put it below, about his purchase of a new outboard motor... "Couldn't really afford it, bought it anyway." So in the end it comes down to a personal choice about value and recovering what [may] seem to be a high initial investment with lower long-term operating expenses, perhaps especially if you are going to put a lot of hours/miles on the motor.

I would be concerned that the investment in a new diesel may not add enough value to the SD26 to be recoverable in resale. I guess a couple permutations I might also consider if having a diesel inboard seemed to be the way that I wanted to go, was to compare the cost of a new diesel re-power in the Snapdragon 26 with buying another boat with a good existing diesel (possibly including a Cape Dory 25D), and sell the SD26 to someone who would be content with a transom-mounted bracket/outboard.

Another possibility might be to find a used small diesel/transmission in good condition, and have it checked out by a diesel shop before installing it. I've occasionally seen a small Yanmar diesel motors with transmission for sale on CraigsList for between $500 and $1000. 
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 03, 2015, 02:17:20 AM
Looking back through the SD26 photos...thought this one also showed another value in terms of space that could be storage when it isn't occupied with an inboard motor.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on January 03, 2015, 12:28:10 PM
Under the stern of Tehani is very like that Bristol.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CapnK on January 03, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
Nice gate valves, there...

 ???   ;D
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Frank on January 03, 2015, 12:47:25 PM
Kurt.....do I detect just a "hint" of sarcasm there??      :o
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 03, 2015, 12:52:24 PM
Nice gate valves, there...
Yeah...archive photo...but if one was to use that space as storage, you have to hope that there is a (gasketed) hatch in the cockpit floor above to give easier access to those valves.

Or...since the outboard motor well is right aft of those drains...why not route your cockpit scupper drains directly into that well? ...[above the waterline]...no valves required. :)
(I believe others have done this, including Charlie?)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on January 03, 2015, 04:33:37 PM
Close- you remember well  :D

My cockpit drains are  1 7/8 ID and exit JUST forward of the motor well, under the counter. Here's a pic of the inside showing how they route, and one showing the lay up I did when I made them
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Travelnik on January 04, 2015, 03:29:42 PM
Nice gate valves, there...

 ???   ;D

A lot of old British boats had gate valves. My Nomad does, and they are definitely something I want to get rid of!

I'm planning to remove them, block the existing scuppers, and make some larger cockpit drains through the transom. Then there will be 2 less holes in the bottom of the boat.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 07, 2015, 10:47:46 PM
My Dutch-built Contest 30 had its original bronze 1.5" gate valves and through hulls at the cockpit scupper drains. They were located within easy reach of the main cabin. Other than taking more time to operate and not being able to tell at a glance whether they are open or closed (as you can from the handle position on sea cocks/ball valves), I never had a problem with them. The subsequent owner cut them off and told me that they were in good condition despite being 20+ years old, and seemed to regret not investing the time/effort/expense on other higher priorities. However both he and I were using the boat for coastal cruising, not long-distance voyaging, so this influenced our thinking and priorities.

The Westerly Centaur 26 cockpit is sloped to aft scuppers, away from the gasketed motor/transmission/stuffing box access panel at the forward end of the cockpit. From these scuppers 1.5" hose is run forward the length of the cockpit to valves/through-hulls just inside the motor compartment, I assume to be reachable from the cabin. this results in quite long runs of hoses and elbow fittings both aft and forward, with several connections.

I do wonder why they did not just run the drains from the aft cockpit area directly out to the transom with much shorter runs, and if above the waterline, with no valves needed. Maybe the designer/builder thought that in a following sea some water would find its way up the drain lines/hoses to the cockpit? The Centaur 26s all had inboard motors and no outboard well option.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 07, 2015, 11:53:33 PM
One other option alternative to installing an inboard, converting an inboard version of the boat to an outboard (either with transom outboard bracket or constructing an ob motor well), and selling the inboard-setup version SD26 and getting another boat with an existing inboard diesel in good condition, would be to sell your inboard version SD26 and get an SD26 outboard version (that already has a well).

Most of the Sd26s that I have seen were the outboard well versions, so finding one of those may be easier than the reverse.

I just happened to browse the EBay sailboat listings and saw an inboard version that is currently for sale. (see photo of main page/photo below). $7500 seems like quite a bit, but the boat appears to be in good shape and comes with what appears to be a great tandem-axle trailer with interesting guides and hull-support bunks (see ad photos). (and the ad has a "make offer" option. I believe that this is the same Jake that is a SailFar member and may have posted previously in this thread. The ad gives the boat location as Green Cove Springs, Florida.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 08, 2015, 12:16:27 AM
Close- you remember well  :D
...Here's a pic of the inside showing how they route, and one showing the lay up I did when I made them
Thanks, Charlie, I had not heard of anyone laying up their own fiberglass pipe like that. Resourceful guy.  :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: CharlieJ on January 08, 2015, 08:35:59 AM
I used a PVC electrical 90 as a mold wrapped in plastic , laid up one wrap of tape,, epoxied that, then when it cured, split it open, removed the PVC and then laid the rest up over that.
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Jim_ME on January 08, 2015, 06:27:21 PM
...laid up one wrap of tape,, epoxied that, then when it cured, split it open, removed the PVC and then laid the rest up over that.
A creative technique, Charlie.  :)
Title: Re: Snapdragon 26
Post by: Ghostyman on May 11, 2015, 01:30:28 PM
Thanks for all the info, but the owner before me tried putting in an o/b and totally botched the job, used glass over plywood and actually cut the transom and re-configured it. If I have to rebuild it, I would rather try to make it as original as possible. I would like to know where the batteries were located though. Thanks for any help!