Hey y'all! :D
I need to get a boom for my Nomad. The foot of the main is 9.5' to 10', so I'm looking at 11'+ to make sure that I have plenty to work with. Better to have to cut than wish it was longer!
The Westerly Yahoo Group wasn't a lot of help. The only response was to get one from a Catalina 22 or something, but when I asked them for the original measurements, no one responded.
So, I found 2 booms that I could work with. (They would have to be shipped freight.) One is 11.5' x 2.2" x 3.6". The other is 12.5' x 2.2" x 5". The smaller one costs a bit more, but it's newer.
My main concern is the size vs. strength. I don't know if the bigger one would be over-kill for a 22' boat, or if I'd regret going too small, and having it get damaged in rough conditions.
What would you advise? ???
Thanks!
2 questions first-
How many square feet is the main/
Is the main sheeted at the end, or center?
Quote from: CharlieJ on May 24, 2013, 06:46:08 PM
2 questions first-
How many square feet is the main/
Is the main sheeted at the end, or center?
Depending on if the PO used sails from the Nomad or the W22, sail area is between 111 and 115 sq ft.
Sheeted at the center.
BTW, I was told that the originals came with a roller boom, but apparently mine was changed and didn't have it when I bought it.
The one it had when I bought it was missing when I got it back. :(
Thanks!
Necessity is 21 feet, main 84 sq feet, boom 2 x 3, mid boom sheeting. Has worked fine for years. BUT-Boom is only 8 feet.
Based on that, I'd say the smaller boom would more than likely be fine, but the deeper section would be stronger for mid boom sheeting, particularly with a boom that long. If it where my choice, I'd go with the 5 inch deep section.
How's that for definite? ;)
Thanks Charlie,
I'm kind of liking the 5" thickness too, but I get a bit paranoid about strength, and tend to go toward the extremes (ask my wife about that!).
Denys Rayner, the original designer, would probably approve. ;D
Hi Dean, Fellow Westerly fan here.
Here is the Sailrite website which gives the standard Nomad rig/sail dimensions...
http://www.sailritesails.com/ShowAd.aspx?id=4155&sourceid=0
It has the original mainsail foot dimension as 9'-9"
It also includes a sailplan drawing image with a scale...
http://www.sailritesails.com/ShowAd.aspx?id=4155&sourceid=0
which shows the original boom, sheeted from the end (as you would expect, if it had roller reefing).
You can print and scale the length of the boom from the scale legend, and maybe check the scale against the known sail foot dimension, and the LWL (Load waterline) length (which is given as 18'-4")
Eyeballing it on the screen it looks like the boom extends about a foot past the mainsail, so that would give you a boom length of about 10'-9".
Did you happen to see this blog?
BeBop Around The World
http://westerlynomad.blogspot.com/
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 24, 2013, 08:49:03 PM
Did you happen to see this blog?
BeBop Around The World
http://westerlynomad.blogspot.com/
Hi Jim!
Yeah, I was following his blog a few years ago. Too bad he couldn't do his trip. :( It would have been cool to follow! He did talk about using Catalina sails.
Did you see this one: http://www.geocities.ws/sabakiboy402/Andunge.html
She was a member here, but no one seems to know what happened to her.
I saw the sail plan on sailrite. I also looked at the Westerly 22 to see if there was any difference, and imagine my surprise when I saw this:
http://www.sailritesails.com/ShowAd.aspx?id=5008&sourceid=0
They used a pic of my boat! :D
Maybe I should correct them? ;)
I think I'll go with the bigger, 5" x 2.2" x 12' boom. I know I'll need to cut the length down, but I'll feel better with the stronger boom. I was a bit leery about following someone else's advice about using a Catalina 22 boom. They seemed a bit skinny for serious sailing with possible storms.
I only glanced at a few pages of the BeBop blog, so didn't learn how far he got with his plans.
I had not seen the Andunge website. Thanks. The diagram and description of upgrades is interesting-as is her writing about considering what boat model to get and finding this one. I'll have to read it thoroughly and maybe watch the video. Like you, I'm curious about how her sailing is going. I don't see any dates on the website to tell how long ago it is about. If she was a member here, maybe she will see your posts and let us know, or there may be an email in her profile that we could write to?
I guess that would be a surprise to find that sailrite sails is using a photo of your boat on their website. I see that it had a boom at the time of the photo.
By correct them you mean that it is a Nomad and not the later W22 model?
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 24, 2013, 11:12:21 PM
I only glanced at a few pages of the BeBop blog, so didn't learn how far he got with his plans.
I had not seen the Andunge website. Thanks. The diagram and description of upgrades is interesting-as is her writing about considering what boat model to get and finding this one. I'll have to read it thoroughly and maybe watch the video. Like you, I'm curious about how her sailing is going. I don't see any dates on the website to tell how long ago it is about. If she was a member here, maybe she will see your posts and let us know, or there may be an email in her profile that we could write to?
I guess that would be a surprise to find that sailrite sails is using a photo of your boat on their website. I see that it had a boom at the time of the photo.
By correct them you mean that it is a Nomad and not the later W22 model?
Yeah, they should use it to illustrate the correct model! :D
It was a good photo. The picture was taken when I first got her. She was in great shape then after being completely restored over a few years. The boom was missing when I got her back, along with the electronics and anything that could be sold easily. The boom was probably sold for scrap!
The first time I saw her, she was in pretty bad shape, but I actually thought she was beautiful!
(I'm working on the story of finding her, losing her, and getting her back on my blog http://www.travelnik.com/ . I'll have some before and after pictures there, but I've been pretty bad about keeping up with blogging.)
I wanted to ask cgoinggal a few things about Andunge, and her improvements, but it has been years since she's posted anything here, or on any other forums. I think the last post I saw of hers anywhere was from '07 or '08. I read that she got caught in a storm in the Sea of Cortez or something, then I read that she was getting married. After that, I haven't found anything more.
Maybe my Google-Fu is weak, but something should show up if she's posting anything anywhere. :-\
I do like the way she put the rudder on the transom. That's one of the things I would like to do to my boat too. I also plan on adding more fresh water storage, and a shower! ;D
Quote from: Travelnik on May 24, 2013, 11:43:02 PM
The picture was taken when I first got her. She was in great shape then after being completely restored over a few years. The boom was missing when I got her back, along with the electronics and anything that could be sold easily. The boom was probably sold for scrap!
So was your boat stolen?
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 25, 2013, 12:36:03 AM
Quote from: Travelnik on May 24, 2013, 11:43:02 PM
The picture was taken when I first got her. She was in great shape then after being completely restored over a few years. The boom was missing when I got her back, along with the electronics and anything that could be sold easily. The boom was probably sold for scrap!
So was your boat stolen?
It was a small marina and RV campground owned by a really nice older lady. She started having problems, and couldn't keep it going by herself.
When the original marina owner passed it on to her son, my boat and a few others were claimed as abandoned by the new owner, and sold or parted out. He didn't want to bother with the upkeep of the marina, even though he was still taking the money for it. He decided to close it down without notice. I was still making payments, and they had all 4 of my phone numbers, so they could have called.
The marina owner was a friend of the guy that restored the boat, so he gave her to him and told him to sell it and make a little money. The guy that restored her had traded her to his brother for a Hobie Cat, and I bought her from the brother. Neither of them ever bothered to get the boat titled! The guy that restored her didn't know that his brother had sold her to me. He thought his brother had abandoned her at the marina.
All the while, I was paying them to take care of her because I had to be away for work when the economy tanked. They did a lousy job at that too. 2 windows broke, and several feet of the stbd rub strake ripped off when she pounded on the dock.
I really need to get those pictures up on the blog! ;)
Anyway, this happened in the early part of 2007. I found out about it when a friend asked me where I moved my boat. He told me that he went by the former marina, and all the boats were gone.
It lead to a 6 year search, during which time, they denied having a marina, and the police were useless!
I finally got her back last year, and now I'm going to put her together my way. She's on a trailer on my property where I can keep an eye on her. I'm not letting go of her again! ;D
Geez... :(
Maybe there was some disclaimer fine print in the marina contract...?
Marina subject to close without warning.
Boats without their owner on board may be declared "abandoned" and sold or parted out at any time.
Should this occur, slip rental fees will still be due and payable indefinitely.
Please leave phone numbers so that we may contact you about collecting any overdue payments.
Customers are encouraged to pay in advance. Several years ahead would be ideal.
If you should find your boat is missing. We will not help you find it.
[Seems like a clever business plan, although it may not bring in a lot of long-term repeat customers...]
I measured the spars (Procter Spars) for a Westerly Warwick 21 (21'-6" LOA)
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4489
Twin keel and somewhat comparable to the Nomad 22, I would say. The Warwick is about 500 pounds heavier and designed by Laurent Giles.
Boom is 2-1/4" x 3" section x 9'-3" long
Mast is 2-3/4" x 4-1/2" section
Warwick E dim from Sailrite is 8.60ft, so the boom is 9+" longer than mainsail foot.
Nomad E dim from Sailrite is 9.75ft, so if you add the same 9", than 10'-6+" boom length.
My thought looking at the actual 2-3/4" x 4-1/2" mast section is that it looks quite large. You might want to measure your mast section too, to get a feel for the size of the boom sizes you're considering.
This Rigrite Kenyon boom section looks a lot like the shape and size of the Warwick's boom...
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/2331-boom.html
but the example boats it is typically used on seem smaller/lighter.
This Kenyon "D" section (2.25" x 3.75") states that it is used on many "models in the 21' - 28' range", and includes the Alberg 23-foot Sea Sprite, which at about 3,300 lbs is roughly comparable to the Nomad in size and displacement.
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/D-boom.html
The 5" boom section example boats seem much larger...maybe [3 or] 4 times the displacement of a Nomad or Warwick...
http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/3550-Boom.html
It has a width of 3.50", but that is the most narrow 5" section they have.
Thanks Jim!
The measurements for the 5" boom are about the same as my mast.
The 2.3 x 3.1 seems a bit small.
That 2.25 x 3.75 would probably work well, but I haven't come across any used ones.
I have seen some 2.2 x 5 that were from Hunter or Catalina 30's that I can get for under $150 + shipping, and they come with the hardware. All I will need to do is cut it short enough to clear the backstay.
Denys Rayner designed this little boat to be pretty stout. He was less concerned with speed than survivability in the North Sea. I think the standing rigging at 3/16" would probably be considered too large for a 22' boat by today's standards, but it gives me confidence.
You're welcome, Dean.
Did you see this CL ad in Galveston, which includes some booms? They don't give the dimensions for some of them...
http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/3818401332.html
Quote from: Jim_ME on May 25, 2013, 10:08:21 PM
You're welcome, Dean.
Did you see this CL ad in Galveston, which includes some booms? They don't give the dimensions for some of them...
http://houston.craigslist.org/boa/3818401332.html
Too bad it's local pick-up only. It is cheaper for me to pay $100 or less for shipping than the gas to drive there and back in my wife's truck! ::)
(Galveston is about 500 miles round trip.)
There aren't many sailors around here. Most of the boaters in this area want 16' bass boats with 300hp engines. Some have 18-20 foot boats with twin 250-300hp outboards!
They don't want to go slow and enjoy. They want to beat everyone to the good fishing spots.
Have you checked with Dwyer's?
https://www.dwyermast.com/families.asp?cat1ID=30&cat1Name=Booms
For example, if you want to split the difference between the two you are considering, they have one that is 2.75" x 4.50"
Don't know if it's in your price range at $25.55 / ft boom only (and you'd have to install hardware, etc).
Anyway, you might want to call them and see what they recommend for your boat.
Are you married to the idea of mid boom sheeting? Not trying to talk you out of it...just there are pros and cons either way.
Thanks, but Dwyer's is a bit higher than I can go right now. The extrusion alone would be twice what I can get a similar boom & hardware for.
It would be nice to go with a new one, but I'd need a new mast to match, new mast hardware... ;)
I might give them a call anyway, just to see what they say. Maybe sometime in the future I'll go new.
I'm definitely keeping it end sheeted since the traveler is at the transom. Mid-boom would get in the way. :)
Quote from: Travelnik on May 26, 2013, 05:49:48 PM
I'm definitely keeping it end sheeted since the traveler is at the transom. Mid-boom would get in the way. :)
You told me center sheeted.
"Depending on if the PO used sails from the Nomad or the W22, sail area is between 111 and 115 sq ft.
Sheeted at the center."
That's why I suggested the deeper boom.. If it's end boom, then the smaller should do fine
OK, I feel stupid! I meant end and typed center! :-[
It is definitely sheeted at the end. The traveler is at the transom.
I still like the beefier size though. I would feel better with something larger than 2.2 x 3.6. The mast is 5 x 3, and the smaller boom would feel skimpy to me.
Maybe I'm just paranoid about strength.
Here's a photo from the Nomad brochure to give a visual sense of the size of the original boom compared to the mast.
It doesn't look too skimpy in the picture. :D
Maybe 4" +/- ?
Thanks for posting the picture.
Don't know if this is something to consider or not, but ...
Going larger to gain strength is one thing, but you are also adding weight. Getting too heavy a boom could (in my theoretical mind, anyway) adversely effect light air performance by holding the sail down too much.
We all like to put a tremendous effort into beefing things up and thinking about the bigger winds, but (in my opinion) too often ignore the other end of the spectrum.
You asked about sailing on the ICW. I think being set up for light air to be important in that case.
The question is not is the smaller boom as strong as possible, but is it strong enough. It only has to not be the weak link in the system. You have a 115 sq ft sail and a boat whose displacement and righting moments are "known" quantities. The boom only has to be "strong enough." If a 3" or 4" section meets that criterion, the 5" does not really give you anything but may cause other problems.
I do not know the answer, of course. I'm just throwing it out there as something to consider. How likely are you really to bend/break a 3" section boom? If the 3 is too weak but a 4 meets the need, I'd go that route (even if it costs more, but that's just me) rather than the 5.
Everything is a trade off. If you make something as strong as possible but stronger than it really needs to be, something else is likely getting traded off in an adverse way.
There really should be a chart somewhere showing recommended minimum boom sections as a function of boat size + sail area. Short of that...contact a designer/naval architect and ask them. I would not guess, but nor would I just go as big as I could find blindly either.
Hope that makes sense....
PS: In that picture, the boom is very clearly smaller than the mast. If the mast is 5" section, the boom is 4 or smaller, maybe even 3.
And man, I LOVE the lines on that hull. That boat screams "seaworthy shape" to me.
I'll have to research the weight issue.
The Nomad isn't famous for being a racer, but I don't want to upset the balance bu making her too top heavy either.
Thanks for bringing that up.
I love the lines too. I think Denys Rayner was really on to something there. ;D
If you want to save a few dollars, you could always build a wood boom. There is something to say for do it yourself.
Quote from: Godot on May 27, 2013, 12:01:31 PM
If you want to save a few dollars, you could always build a wood boom. There is something to say for do it yourself.
I have seriously considered it, but I don't know anything about spar making, even though I have done some construction work in the past.
Plus, I don't really have much in the way of woodworking tools anymore. I had to sell most of them before we moved to Texas.
I don't think there is a real need to do anything fancy like building a birdsmouth spar or anything. I'm not sure of the best size wood to use; but I would start with a couple two by fours (or I think I'd be reasonably comfortable with maybe three 1-by boards) of the appropriate length, glued and screwed together, and tapered an inch or two at the end. I would use something clear and reasonably durable, maybe douglas-fir or the equivelant. You can lash the foot of the sail on the boom. Grab some blocks to manage outhauls, and some cleats the tie them off. I would think the gooseneck would be the only difficult to source part.
I'm not sure of the strength required and I'm not qualified to do the engineering math. For something like this I usually just eye-ball it and see how it works. I bet you could build several booms locally (including buying a few tools) for the price of buying one commercial aluminum spar.
Quote from: Travelnik on May 27, 2013, 11:46:29 AM
The Nomad isn't famous for being a racer, but I don't want to upset the balance bu making her too top heavy either.
I'm not talking about weight from a racing or a weight above waterline standpoint. I simply mean that in light air, a too-heavy boom will pull the sail down when there is insufficient wind to blow the sail into proper shape. Imagine trying to sail with a flat sheet of plywood rather than an airfoil...in light air, even very small imperfections in shape mean a lot of lost efficiency.
This is the reason light air sails are made of lighter weight nylon than dacron...it's easier to blow out into airfoil shape. I'd love to have a lightweight nylon mainsail for those light air days around here.
On protected areas of the ICW (and even some open ones) you will have a lot of light air days...in summer, far more light air days than heavy air days. Summers can be hot and still; being able to catch the slightest breath may mean the difference between moving some each day and sitting still for days (weeks) at a time.
Heavy weather gets all the attention, but light air requires some serious thought, too, especially if you plan to mostly move the boat under sail. That's why I say make it just heavy enough to withstand what it needs to withstand, but no more. There should be some engineering chart somewhere that shows what size boom is NEEDED to hold up to the forces on a 115 sq ft sail with boom-end sheeting. I'll bet it is smaller than one might expect.
The general rule of thumb around here seems to be if the wind is light enough that boat speed is less than about 3 knots, they fire up the engine.
Think about that, though. 2 knots for free vs burning fuel. 2 knots with nice, peaceful quiet vs the droning of internal combustion.
Light air makes the sailor. ;)
Boy! Things would have been a lot easier if I still had the original! ;D
OK, not to be argumentative here, I'm just trying to get the best for my all around use, both ICW and open water. That's why I'm asking so many questions before I lay out the cash. The more I can save, and still do the job right, the more can go into cruising!
I checked the weights on Rig-Rite, and the smaller weighs in at about 1.3# per foot, the larger at about 1.42#.
Over a 10-11 foot span, that's under 2# total difference.
Will that severely affect the light air performance?
I would rather sail than drive as much as possible (now that I know I can). If I wanted to drive to Maine, I could just take the Cougar! ;D
Ok, by my (ultra simplistic) calculation, the effective windspeed force loss to boom weight at 5 mph differs by 2% for the two booms and at 3 mph it is about 1%.
In my experience in light air, I think 1-2% in some metric of efficiency is huge.
IF the 3" is "strong enough," I'd opt for lighter. That's just me I guess.
I welcome others' thoughts on this, though.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 27, 2013, 05:42:47 PM
IF the 3" is "strong enough," I'd opt for lighter. That's just me I guess.
I welcome others' thoughts on this, though.
Agree. Only reason I even suggested the larger was because I thought it was mid boom sheeted.
Tehani carries a wooden boom that I built. Fir, box section, 12 feet long, end boom sheeting and it's 2 inches by 3 1/2.
And it's heavier than I'd like, but in light air, I just take the load of it on the topping lift, which is after all, what's it's there for.
Thanks guys!
I'll go with the lighter one. I'd rather pay more for the right thing, than go cheap and regret it later.
OK, I just bit the bullet and ordered a Dwyer DM-5 Boom! ;D
Shipping is almost half again the cost of the boom, but at least it's new.
Thanks again everyone for all your help!
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 26, 2013, 05:27:19 PM
Have you checked with Dwyer's?
https://www.dwyermast.com/families.asp?cat1ID=30&cat1Name=Booms
For example, if you want to split the difference between the two you are considering, they have one that is 2.75" x 4.50"
Don't know if it's in your price range at $25.55 / ft boom only (and you'd have to install hardware, etc).
Anyway, you might want to call them and see what they recommend for your boat.
Are you married to the idea of mid boom sheeting? Not trying to talk you out of it...just there are pros and cons either way.
Good luck!
Well, I got the boom 3 working days after they shipped it, and it looks like it should work. I may need to cut it down a little to clear the backstay. I will know for sure once I get it all set up.
The only problem so far is that the 2 little tangs (?) that hold the sail tack on the gooseneck broke off in shipping. The cast aluminum seems very fragile, and I don't know if I should get a couple more from Dwyer (1 to use, 1 for a spare), or if I should take the cast piece to a machine shop and have the whole thing made from 316 stainless, or billet aluminum. ???
I didn't think the parts were so fragile.
Well, I guess the stresses on the tabs are very different in shipping then in use (lateral loads, likely impact with sheer and irregular compression).
Any recourse with the seller or shipper?
Quote from: s/v Faith on June 15, 2013, 12:35:59 PM
Well, I guess the stresses on the tabs are very different in shipping then in use (lateral loads, likely impact with sheer and irregular compression).
Any recourse with the seller or shipper?
I mentioned it to the seller, and he said that he would see if he had any that would fit. No further response.
The piece is only 30 something dollars, so that isn't really a big deal. I just don't know about trusting a replacement made from the same quality cast aluminum. :-\
Billet may be too expensive to have made, so I was seriously considering having it made from stainless.
Just make your own.When mine snapped off Berkeley I looked for 2 months for a suitable aluminum extrusion.One morning I woke up and remembered that wooden spars worked for for all the old boats.So I went down to the lumber yard and ordered 4 spruce 12' 1x4.
Made some calls and borrowed a bunch of clamps then epoxied them together,cut to length,chamfered with a skillsaw and rounded with a belt sander. Worked great and lasted through some heavy weather 65kts.
Ericson 27 mid boom sheeting.