sailFar.net

Aren't they sometimes just the most incredible folks... I've run across a few lately, and the more I meet, the more I like my crewdogs.  :)

Today it was a guy in my marina, a guy who I have personally been with when he's run down a daymarker, *in broad daylight*.  ???

Yep, one thing between him and the whole uncrowded entirety of the Bay, so I stop watching, go below to grab a cold drink, and sure enough - WHAM!  ::)

...

(or maybe that should be: ...---...  ;) )

Anyway -

So today this guy is telling me that to cross oceans, I need a 40'ish boat, and that basically I don't have any idea about the mods I'm making to my boat to do so (after I told him of the research and calculations, etc etc that I've done to know righting moments, rig loads, and so on). He also took the time to tell me that instead of having a boat which can't sink, I should trust my life and fate, if need be, to a drifting inflatable liferaft and an EPIRB (to heck with the fact that I wouldn't want to endanger any rescuers because of *my* decisions...).

Sheesh.

Need I mention that the _only_ reason he was at the marina today was to remove his bent and crushed bow pulpit, after sailing his boat into a docked shrimper yesterday afternoon?  :-X

Ahh, the irony of it all...  ;D :D ;D :D ;)

I bet he's sitting on his couch right now, reading the latest authoritative story on crossing oceans, brought to you by this months glossy slick (heavily big-boat advertising) sailing rag...  :P

And he wonders why I always turn him down when he asks me to go sailing with him.  ;D

Kurt, 


   Yea, I know this guy too. _{(or his equivalent in my marina)}  :P

  May this man, and the legion like him, serve only  to inspire you (and us all).... to prove him wrong.  ;D ;D

Unfortunately, there are a lot of guys out there who believe you need to have a big boat to do any long voyages.  Most of these guys aren't comfortable with the idea that you can have a boat that is small enough to single hand, and that is capable of going into anchorages, a tub like his would go aground before getting anywhere near.  They also believe that they have a right to be rescued from their own stupidity, regardless of the risk to their rescuers or the costs incurred.

One thing is for sure, I wouldn't want to be the one to insure a sailor like that for a bluewater passage... it isn't worth the risk... If he can't manage to avoid a fixed, clearly visible object, whether it is a shrimper or a daymark, then...I'd hate to see what happens when there's a semi-submerged container in the water ahead of him. 

A lot of the projects I am doing on the Pretty Gee are to increase her seaworthiness and make her a much more capable boat. 

May we all strive not to be.....

 

QuoteNaysayers, pessimists, and people who don't know what they are talking about

 

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 09, 2008, 12:26:29 AM
May we all strive not to be.....

You are doing a good job so far!  :)

Thanks for taking the time to share with us.

Tim

lol- when I was crewing on the 50 foot schooner, we had come to anchor one evening and a sailboat, about 30 feet came in and anchored well within our swing circle. The owners wife went on deck and informed the sailboat that he would probably get bumped on the tide change and he'd probably be better off moving.

He told her to mind her own business. He was well able to anchor his boat.

She told him  "OK, but we weigh 50,000 pounds dry, and have a ferro cement hull. Have a good evening"

About 5 minutes later we watched through the portholes as he pulled his anchor and moved ;D ;D

Kurt I know how you feel just remember, iT IS EASY TO PUT UP WITH THE UPS AND DOWNS, BUT ITS THE JERKS THAT GET THRU TO YOU!!!!

I split the discussion of HP required to move a sailboat off to this thread. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1533.0)

Confession Time:

I've hit docks.  More than once.

I've hit a buoy.

I've never hit another boat, but ALMOST.  Luck was on my side.

Does that make me a naysayer, pessimist or person who does not know what I am talking about, or not because I happen to agree with you on the 'boats under 40' feet can cross oceans' position?

Just trying to figure out which part is the relevant part.   :P

;D ;D

Sitting here at anchor, less then 40 miles from where we intend to keep the boat...

...after 7 months of cruising, and 3 miles short of 2500nm later...

I recall the guy who was adamant that 'the gulf stream could not be crossed in a small boat, there is too much current'...... NAYSAYER....

  I remember the folks saying that Rose and I would kill each other after a couple weeks aboard.... PESSIMISTS.....

  I also look back to the ones who insisted we needed a bigger boat, that we were going to go broke, that it would never work taking our dog with us.... I also recall the people who went on and on about the hurricanes... and the guy who tried to tell us that the 'islands south of the Abacos are "too short" to provide protection from the winds... that we had better not try to go to the Exumas / out islands..... PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT....


  Now... that is not to say that anyone who had words of warning were in the categories above...  I REALLY appreciate the advice, and ENCOURAGEMENT.


  The people like Kurt who started this site...  and all our firends here who have really helped in the preparation, planning, and execution of the whole trip.

....My friend Vaughn, and his endless sea stories of woe (all with a cautionary note, and some even true)...

  .....My friend Bob who's ideas I borrowed as I tried my best to make my little ship seaworthy....

... My other friend Bob, who encouraged me (and more importantly Rose) in the preparation.

  ....Dennis, who worked on my boat, encouraged me, encouraged my wife, but did not spare me the truth.  His input on my dingy may well have saved my boat.

  ....Frank, who in addition to the encouragement you read on this site, took a couple of hours of time out of his life to write Rose and I a 12 page letter of encouragement, caution, and advise to help us on our way.....

...Earl who's tutelage as my race tactician, and challenges of my flawed physics made me a much better Sailor.

  ...Like Dan (Psyche) generosity and help when we stayed with him... Same for James & Mei Baldwin.....

...Mom who handled all the details of finances and mail back home... as well as the house... goats... etc. 

...Dad, who monitored our progress, provided counsel, weather routing, and long distance ship chandelier duties while rooting us on.

  ... our friends, family, and especially so many from our yacht club who helped, encouraged, and Prayed for us on this trip.....  and all those I have inevitably frogotten to mention.

THANK YOU.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 09, 2008, 10:10:38 PM
Confession Time:

I've hit docks.  More than once.

I've hit a buoy.

I've never hit another boat, but ALMOST.  Luck was on my side.

Does that make me a naysayer, pessimist or person who does not know what I am talking about, or not because I happen to agree with you on the 'boats under 40' feet can cross oceans' position?

Just trying to figure out which part is the relevant part.   :P

;D ;D

  Sorry John, I am getting all worked up... I guess it is to be expected on this (probably) last night of this cruise.

  No, (IMHO) screwing up just makes you more qualified to comment.  I have screwed up a BUNCH on this trip.... and the one before and before that... If you don't believe me just take a look back at the pictures of my boat sitting high and dry back in Georgia.   ;D

  I don't see the cautions, or warnings as anything wrong either... like the folks concerns about hurricane season I mentioned above.... To me, the difference is the WAY, the INTENT.  Those folks who say things like 'you will never make it' are IMHO the

Quote( Re: Naysayers, pessimists, and people who don't know what they are talking about )

  There is a line, and sometimes it is blurry.

Not willing to cross the religion / politics line here but as an example... in 'discussions' with some about faith some argue that 'love & positive thoughts' is all that should be shared... I believe that to simply share 'love & positive thoughts' is not doing anyone a favor... So also sharing the 'SailFar gospel' is about encouraging others to 'go small, go now' while being honest with them.. and ourselves.

Oh, I think we have all had (and/or are going to have) moments where our boats attempt to move immovable objects, or similar. I've a tale or two, myself. Even a couple of really good ones! 8)

But nothing like running down a 15' tall dayshape, striking it with the windward side of the boat, in less than 5kts of wind, in perfect visibility, after it has been in view for easily 20 minutes, and is the *only* thing marking the channel there, at the tip of a sandbar...

*That* is an example of gross incompetence that is hard to beat.  ::)

Until, of course, you sail into the side of a docked boat. At such an angle that you crush your bow pulpit...  :o

So - It's not the number of screw-ups, so much as it is the quality of them. ;D

There's a difference between "Oops, I/we/they messed up...", and "Should never have put our/themselves in a position for X situation to have happened." Mistakes are not necessarily gross negligence and/or incompetence.

Like Craig says, there is a line, and it can be blurry sometimes. But then again, sometimes it ain't, at all. I guess that's why "courtrooms" were invented. ;)

But the oddest thing is that many times, it is the folks on the other side of it who have the most vocal and/or righteous position about what is happening on *your* side of that line.

Boy - it's too early, after too late a night watching the shuttle liftoff, for me to manage the task of thinking well enough to bring this to any type of coherent conclusion, other than this:

Have a nice day. ;D

I think one of the best examples of "What were they thinking?" was something I witnessed this past season.  Direction is a 66' commercial lobsterboat that sails out of New Bedford.  They've even been on a cable television show several times—The Deadliest Catch IIRC. Well, one Sunday morning, as we were coming up the channel towards the Hurricane Barrier, we saw Direction coming down the channel. 

The weather was beautiful—sunny, no seas to speak of and 5 knots of wind.  As we got closer to Direction, I noticed they were heading directly for one of the large, lit green buoys that marks the New Bedford shipping channel.  One my crew asked me what I was looking at... and I said, "They've got to see that buoy...don't they, they're gonna turn, they've got to turn soon... " 

We watched as they got closer, and closer... and then the nailed the buoy about as well as if they had been aiming for it.  I tried sounding my air horn... but no one was on the bridge to hear it. They broke the bowsprit of the boat off about half way down, and literally ran over the buoy.  There was an awfully loud BONG as they hit it and you could see someone suddenly appear in the bridge windows and run across the bridge, presumably to the helm.  The buoy left some wide scratches on the boat when it popped up from underneath it. 

Direction is a boat that probably passes that buoy twenty times a month, and has done so for almost 25 years, since the boat was commissioned in 1983. If the crew of this boat, which does this stuff day after day, can make such a basic and obvious mistake, I'm not surprised that we do.

That brings to mind a funny story regarding commercial fishermen/fishing boats. A very close friend of my family was part owner of the "Still Crazy" fleet which fished out of Murrells Inlet (and probably still does, tho' he's no longer an owner). He told me that one day, he was in the office and overheard an exchange on the VHF.

It seems that the US Coast Guard was hailing one of his boats that was just offshore, on its way back in. The CG stated that they wanted the fishermen to come to a stop so they could be boarded.

The fishing boat captain comes back, telling the CG that they are returning from over a week at sea, are more than ready to be home with just a couple miles to go to be at the dock, and so he inquires as to why the CG wants to board them?

The CG replies that they are going to search the boat for drugs.

Whereupon, the fishing captain says:

"Aw, he1l. We ain't got no drugs on board - that's why we're coming back in! If you wanna find drugs onboard, you shoulda checked us when we were on our way *out*!"...



True story. :D (And a ballsy captain!)



(So maybe your guys were going thru withdrawal, Dan... ;) ;D)

CapnK-

Direction was leaving New Bedford... and hit one of the big Green lighted buoys about 1/2 mile from the harbor hurricane barrier. If they were going through withdrawal, they went cold turkey when they were on shore leave.

disregarding the naysayers and pessimists, I wonder how many people get a boat sail a few seasons then just take off,  and not come back.  Learn on the way.  I have read many accounts of people learning along the way but just home common is it. 

Ron -

I met 4 or 5 folk just this past year when they came through the marina here, who'd done that, more or less - actually less, having sailed little or none prior to heading down the Ditch. 'Smallest' boat was a CD28, 'largest' a IP38.

The CD28 fellow had been a doctor (pathologist, IIRC). He had transmission problems nearby, and wound up staying a month and becoming a friend while fixing that and other chores, before he continued heading north. He came back through a few months later, going south.

That was about the same time that the IP38 guy, who'd been a fireman and carpenter, came in. He'd gotten beaten up, literally, by storms off of Cape Fear, and when he got here he had a 3" gash over his left eye, which was badly bruised and swollen nearly shut. I fixed his roller snarling while he was here. It was a contributing factor to his getting beaten up so bad by storms when it stopped working properly, and he didn't understand it enough to get it furled. He went through a 40kt, 10-12' seas storm with nearly a full genny out. Zoiks. Good thing for him that the IP's are built strong. :)

For me I think being out there doing it is the best experience.  However with that being said I think experience is a good thing when you only have one chance of doing it right.  If you do it wrong your swimming or calling on the GC.  Knowing the basics I guess are important but can you really get the experience for a round the world trip just sailing locally. 

I do not feel so bad knowing I am not in the minority.  I guess when my responsibilities to my kid are done, I will have  a bit of experience before i push off.

Yes and No. IF you do not know how to use a greese gun then it will do you no good to know that parts need greesing.

I agree with you to an extent. A costal long cruise with the intention on learning on how to fix everything on the boat will go a long way. Staying close to an area that has the parts is also advised.

I lot of boats do not have much problems but there are those who do. Just do not get to far away and not know what you need to know.

Everybody is different as well as what they know. Without this it is hard to say who will have problems they cannot take care of quickly.

Knowing goes a longer way than wishing and hopeing.

I am lucky I guess because every since I was a child I have taken things apart to see how they worked.  Now I am confident I can fix about anything.  I have built so many things it is almost second nature.    Outboards are a pain though, they all work on the same concept however everything is packed together like a timex watch. 

ronc98 asked about sailors with limited experience heading out for an extended voyage. I know it's best to gather a lot of experience before going across the oceans, but it seems like nowadays people are less patient to gather these seamanship skills and expect technology to make up for it. Sometimes it works - often it doesn't.

Below is a link to a friend who just started his first voyage and is in Panama now preparing to transit the canal and then head across the South Pacific. He was set on going this year with or without my help so I did what I could in the short time allowed to help him get underway. I feel he has a good chance to succeed, but it is not without some risk, which he understands.

http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/salsa.htm

James B

Thanks for the link. 

I am lucky I guess because I have a good ten years that I have to stay grounded at my current location due to my children.  I will learn everything I can squeeze into that time.  The only big body of water that is close is Lake Erie and while it is not the ocean it is big enough to cruise. 

I have alot of respect for anyone that just takes off and goes.  Perhaps if the weather is perfect the whole way then experience is not a big issue but there is always that chance you miss something and get in way over your head.

Forgive me for commenting on this thread. As a virtual novice...ie only sailing on the big puddles for a few years on vacation time, I do not have the experience of many of the posters here. Some like James B, have lived the life I only dream about.  I do feel strongly about wasting the dream however, and when I see someone just go out with out any experience and come home sick, beaten up and dreams shattered I wonder. Could they have not just sailed around bays and ports and the Intercostal waterway for a bit? Or maybe do what I did and take a few formal sailing courses?
I plan on circumnavigating, but the kids and responsibilities come first for me. In the meantime I sail on weekends and slowly learn to use the sextant, while practicing my DR and trying not to use my iron jenny...in other words practicing the skills I will need if things break while at sea.
My way is not for everyone. But seamanship and common sense is. I would trust someone who had a week sailing with good common sense more than a  boat I saw in the Tampa bay. It was tied off to a channel marker  in the middle of a busy seaway and fishing.
Just my two cents.
Newt

Last I checked, you weren't supposed to tie off to navigation markers or anchor near most of them...  especially the yellow ones marking natural gas pipelines.

Yeah I think the tanker that almost sank him agreed with you :o

Some people are more able than others. It is hard to tell who will make it, who will quit and who will just not start.

I know this next response may get a few hackles raised...but I do not want to flame, rather to ask a pertinent question:
Should sailors be required to get some training before buying a boat and setting forth? ???
It just seems like you can get in so much trouble out there, I know I am glad I spend lots of time in inland lake and then took some classes.
And I still don't feel fully qualified.
What do you all think?
Newt

QuoteShould sailors be required to get some training before buying a boat and setting forth?

IMHO... nope.  I do believe that they should have to pay at least some part of the cost of rescue, especally if the vessel did not sink......

but...

  The only regulation I am in favor of is that I believe that states should require a 'boating endorcement' on operators licenses for boats registered in that state with over 9.9hp.

Oh, and here is another idea... (speaking of  "get a few hackles raised...")

  What if every time someone bought an EPIRB, they were required to maintain either a rescue insurance policy, or post a rescue bond.... ? 



On edit.. bit more thought.  Right now they work right out of the box, even if you do not register the MMSI.  What if the software were changed so they would not work until the MMSI were programed in?  And to get the MMSI you had to prove the insurance / bond? 

  Know, I know some might argue that the EPIRB is a life saving device and it's use should be encouraged.  I (personally) believe that they make it too easy for folks to get into positions where they ought not to be, and too easy to decide to 'punch out' and endanger the lives of rescue crews prematurely.

Newt, Driving school is mandatory, everyone has to take it now, and they still can't drive.  Why would sailing be any different..  The schools are there for those that need them but for me personally I'm damned tired of government mandatory anything/and/or/everything.  I'd rather learn from a sailor that I know and trust and I feel like that old school of hard knocks is the best teacher. TJim

Oh yea and.....

QuoteShould sailors be required to get some training before buying a boat and setting forth?

  I am sure that if you remove the words 'be required' there would be no disagreement......

(Should sailors.... to get some training before buying a boat and setting forth?)

Quote from: s/v Faith on April 22, 2008, 10:39:32 PM


  Know, I know some might argue that the EPIRB is a life saving device and it's use should be encouraged.  I (personally) believe that they make it too easy for folks to get into positions where they ought not to be, and too easy to decide to 'punch out' and endanger the lives of rescue crews prematurely.

I agree, the recent story about the offshore passengers pulling the cord because they thought they were in danger because it was rough even though the skipper thought it was manageable is an example. Too many think that "the boat" or "the equipment" is gonna save their butts, ugh ah, it is the ability to use them correctly.

Good sailors are educated, either by years of  self teaching or through a teaching program, although I too don't want something "required" it certainly makes sense to have sailors responsible for their actions out there.

Tim

I agree I am a bit tired of mandates and the goverment trying to protect us from ourselfs.  Even if they did mandate a sailing coarse that does not really help much.  As much as it is learning how to sail it also has alot to do with working well under pressure and working the problem through. 

I like the idea of having to pay for the rescue if one takes place.  First it makes people think first before heading out, and second it forces themselves to be held accountable.  In the end stuff does happen things break, weather changes, and injuries happen.  It is all a risk that needs to be managed by the person taking the voyage.   

Touched a nerve here I see. I agree with no more laws. It would be almost impossible to enforce anyway. But the idea that someone is required to pay for their rescue is an interesting one.  Last week my admiral and I were out sailing on the lake when she spotted a boat? no a person? Hmm We get closer and it is a person laying on a half submerged kayak weakly kicking against the wind to shore. He is sunburned and red neck up (no hat) and hypothermic and wet from the neck on down. He could barely even talk to us to request help.
We get him on board, tie the Kayak to the stern cleat, start the OB and bring him into the docks. 30 minutes later (he was out there) he steps off my boat and unties he kayak and walks away. Does not even say thank you. The lake temp was about 54.
Now I believe in helping whenever there is a need. But are we encouraging this type of behavior with our current system? What if I had not been there? (i was the only boat out that night) Maybe this is a topic without a concrete answer...you can't protect these people from themselves.
Getting back to the topic- what do you think he would have done if we had demanded $$ for ruining our afternoon sail? Or salvage rights to his kayak? Of course I am being ridiculous, but there is a point there. (on my lake is there is no tow boat I know of and the park rangers would not answer my hail on 16 )
What do you think is right? What would you have done? :-\

Would do, and have done, exactly what you did. In fact, legally you SHOULD render aid.

I think the pay back mentioned was more in regards to the use of government equipment- helicopters, rescue boats, whatever. THAT could get to be a really slippery slope if they got to demand that and someone couldn't pay. I'd be against it. Besides- Coast Guard equipment and personnel are ALREADY being paid for- by US, with our taxes- that's what they are SUPPOSED to do..

Newt, the Park Ranger office is just barely line of sight...Not much chance if you were on a 5 Watt handheld and lucky to get thru on a 25 Watt with mast top antenna.. You m ight want to write this number down on your boat....801 209 9142...That is the South Marina Harbour Master's cell and his name is Dave Shearer. He lives in the Marina...The Rangers do not man the office 24 hours a
day....It's pretty much hit and miss.... It's a new world with a new attitude....
Someone is supposed to take care of (we owe them) all the idiots...TJim

Interesting discussion.

I oppose just about any notion of telling people what they can and cannot do with their own lives.  If someone with ZERO sailing experience wants to buy a boat and off into the wild blue yonder, I view that as their choice.

I cannot get my mind around people that are so critical of such choices as to be rude about it.  Discuss things - yes; learn from them - absolutely.  Criticize the choices others make?  I don't think that's right.  But sadly, we see this on the 'Net all the time - after just about ANY rescue.  "They shouldn't have been out there" or "they should have had a bigger/better/different brand boat," "they should have waited until they had more experience," etc.

Mandatory boating classes/licensure?  I oppose that as well. There are safety classes available now for those that want to take them.  I submit that forcing people to take a class does not make them absorb, or more importantly, apply the knowledge.  Those that WOULD benefit probably already are either taking classes or undergoing some form of serious self-study.

The idea of charging people for rescue is intriguing.  I like the idea of putting up a bond when you buy an EPIRB.  That makes a lot of sense.  I can then choose to avoid paying the bond by not buying an EPIRB.  Choices are cool.

Probably the only thing I don't like about the idea of paying for rescues - before or after the fact - is that we already pay for that service in the form of taxation.  The Coast Guard is funding by the federal budget which we all pay for.  Getting a rescue from another country's service is another matter.

This issue comes up a lot in mountain climbing as well.  And a LOT of the exact same rhetoric is used.  Inexperienced people should not be allowed to climb, bonds for rescues (I think some places do this), paying for rescues later, etc.

Another issue is where do you draw the line?  ANY activity can cause injury and require "rescue."  Do we start charging people for the fire department to come to their home for a house fire, the police to come when there's been a burglary, an ambulance to the park because your friend broke his leg playing football with his friends?  In each of these cases, it could be that someone was doing something they COULD have prevented.  But we don't charge in these circumstances, because we recognize these are the services we fund with the tax base.

In essence, then, it could be said we are all paying a "stupidity" tax.  You can parse that several difference ways.

Quote from: newt on April 23, 2008, 12:41:44 PM

What do you think is right? What would you have done? :-\

I'd help and not even consider asking anything in return or expecting thanks.  That's my nature.  How he acted at the dock later did nothing to diminish the Right Thing (tm) you did by helping.

On Edit:  Sorry to repeat the taxation point, Charlie; I see you posted while I was typing.

Quote from: CharlieJ on April 23, 2008, 01:38:03 PM
Would do, and have done, exactly what you did. In fact, legally you SHOULD render aid.

I think the pay back mentioned was more in regards to the use of government equipment- helicopters, rescue boats, whatever. THAT could get to be a really slippery slope if they got to demand that and someone couldn't pay. I'd be against it. Besides- Coast Guard equipment and personnel are ALREADY being paid for- by US, with our taxes- that's what they are SUPPOSED to do..

I agree, requiring payment for rescues would be the wrong way to go. But it seems as though there has been an increase in those going to sea not properly prepared, relying on new technologies to protect them. This can increase the risk to all others, professionals or not. I am required (and have) rendered aid as long as it does not put my vessel at risk. But rescue situations that start out safe can sometimes sour quickly, so the fewer one has to be involved in the better.

Tim

Woah there...
I did not advocate not rescuing people... I just wonder if people should be made responsible for their acts ? (after they are back to land, and boat and property retrieved.) I talked to my wife while this conversation was going on, and he did thank her once he had warmed up. ( I was in the back with the OB) I have always thought that we should get someone out of harms way and talk about it later- sorry if my post seemed to say otherwise.  But should there be consequences for "gross negligence"?

Quote from: newt on April 23, 2008, 02:18:35 PM

sorry if my post seemed to say otherwise.

I don't think it did.  I think we were responding to the hypotheticals you listed.  Ask for payment, etc.  At least I did not read it as you saying not to help.

Quote

But should there be consequences for "gross negligence"?

Again, where do we draw the line?  Playing football without pads can be dangerous - if someone breaks their arm or leg, we do charge for the ambulance ride?

What if someone wrecks their car because they were tuning the radio while driving...do we charge them for the 'rescue'?

In each of these circumstances, there is a social contract in place.  Part of the money we earn goes to finance rescue services for when we need them - no questions asked.  When we dial 911, the operator does not say "before I send the ambulance, I need to know if you were doing something other people might think you weren't supposed to do?"

That is, I think at least part of the problem is going to be defining "gross negligence."  You might have a clear idea in your mind what that means...someone else might see it differently.  Most of us on this board have at one point or another faced the attitude that sailing "far" in a "small boat" is gross negligence.  Kurt's post that opened the thread illustrates this.

I don't disagree that there are people doing things they lack the experience or equipment to do.  I just happen to believe that is their choice.  I wish they would not call for help when THEY screw up, but I don't see a single simple remedy.

That's why I like Craig's notion of linking the payment to the device that enables people to call for help way too easily.  EPIRBs are touted as wonderful things, but I think we are all saying they encourage unnecessary abandonment on the one hand and are creating overburdens on the rescue system on the other.

LIfe has no safety net, no matter what the American Legal System says.

Licences???? In my little part of the world don't even need the boat to be registered.....

No matter the bit of paper issued by whoever, their is no substitute for experiance, having said that I am all in favour of folk obtaining training - formally or informally - after all, if I decided to take up Paragliding or even Golf I would get at least some lessons out of sheer basic commonsense, whether if it was from "a mate" or a Proffessional.....but neither would make me equipped to take on an F15 in aerial combat or Tiger Woods at The Open.....no matter what piece of paper we all shared from the Govt.

I am a great supporter of the Darwinian approach to those who jump in feet first without any thought, harsh but fair.

Charging for rescue? The French already do! As France is only 10/15 miles away at the nearest point this is something that we need to be aware of.....Insurance I think is meant to pay out for the French Rescue and something makes me think they do not charge in all circumstances......I should know the rules involved, but I do not!......but basically the rule in practice is make sure where possible that the British RNLI is coming to get you!

Should the French (or anyone else) charge? My opinion is that it is up to them how they spend their money.....if I venture into their waters I accept the possibilty of a large bill if requesting rescue. or I choose not to go. and it is up to me to take insurance accordingly. or not. IMO ignorance is not a defence.

Thanks Jim for the phone number.  I will keep it on my boat. I did notice that the NW side of Antelope Island is out of cell phone range.
Newt

That really depends on the particular cell phone you have and the service provider.
With the bunch of guys I sail with you really notice it when certain people have service all the time and other people with the same provider do not....In general
it seems to me that Samsungs work the best and even better with AT&T for a provider.  I used to have T Mobile with a Nokia and couldn't communicate with anyone.  Then my son had T Mobile with a Samsung and  had no trouble at all so I shifted to a Samsung and things got really good but not quite as good as the guys with AT&T....All of the above is based on my personal experience on the GSL and is by no means guaranteed..... TJim

Back when the earth was flat, we farmed on a hill out in the middle of nowhere.   The only one visable for many miles.   My stepdad was in ill health, so we went south for the winter.    We'd leave the house unlocked.   Every year we had 2-3 notes telling us thanks for the use of the phone etc. when they went into the ditch, stuck etc.  We do what we have to do to help others, stupid or not.

That a look at the stats on boating. Some say that 80% are drug or booze related. Madatory classes will not solve that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't those stats related to boating accidents? Most of the people I see are sober even if they are an accident waiting to happen. :)

True, true. I also understand that people use their boats 4 times or less a year. Sad. Hard to get good at it.

As a counter to some of these guys mentioned on this thread.....

... Took a friend and his 2 sons sailing for the first time the other day.  They loved it, and were really interested in getting a boat and going cruising.

  The question?  "How long would it take to sail to Brazil in this?"   ;D

Hmm - maybe the answer would be  "a Brazillion minutes"? ;D

Heh... reminds me of a line in a Chevy Chase/Dan Akroyd film, somebody had clients defined only as Brazillionaires.

I remember reading a couple stories about Vertues which were sailed to Brazil during circumnavigations of South America. Little boats can go far, even rounding Cape Horn. And it takes less time to sail there than it takes to get the boat ready to sail there. At least, that's my impression.

We were basically called white trash today at the marina because our boat needs some additional cosmetic work.  She is not the worse looking boat in the marina, but we have a couple of projects underway that make her look worse than she otherwise would.

The guy who told me this told me that although an Alberg can cross oceans, he would not recommend we do so with our current boat - we should do so with something bigger and more 'comfortable.'

There seems to be an underlying assumption among several of the 'armchair Admirals' here that either we as a family, or at least My Wife, is weak and will bear no discomfort at all underway.

I personally find this insulting.  My wife is anything but weak.  I challenge anyone to accomplish what she has done.  When I first met her, it was not uncommon for her to go 50+ hours without sleep and she still maintained functional mental processes.  Currently, her day begins at 04:30 and ends after 21:00, sometimes mighty "after,"

Weak my ass.

I told him "I like our boat" and before I could finish the thought - that WE like our boat AND the way she is outfitted, he spouted, "oh, like her too...she has "nice lines."  His tone dripped with the sarcasm of one who would NEVER stoop so low as to cruise with a family in a boat under 50 feet.

The minute my wife and I decide we need/want something else, we'll make a change.  And not a minute before.  Yes, it's hard sometimes, but we come to grips with things and we solve problems - even if that means just by "acceptance."  I hope we are teaching our children that not everything in life is about "I want" or "comfort."

He then went on to mention Lin and Larry...I remain undecided if he was trying bad mouth them or not.

What a total ass! Wonder how many oceans he has crossed if any. Or if his boat even leaves the dock.

He actually tried to talk smack about Lin and Larry? I don`t agree with the Pardeys entire sailing philosphy, but I would never question their seamanship or choice of vessel.

These are the kind of jerks that scare new potential sailors away. Telling everyone that you need a 40ft+ boat that cost over a $100,000 to do anything other than daysail.

When I first bought my Cal 29 about a decade ago I ran across one of these know-it-all types. He was walking down the dock as I was clearing the previous owners junk out and we got to talking. I knew nothing about sailboats at this time but I knew BS when I heard it. He starts going on and on about how he couldn`t understand how anyone could live on a boat "that small" and it was only good for daysailing and in no way should I ever cross the gulfstream over to the Bahamas in a boat "that small". So after sizing this fool up after a few minutes I ask him what kind of boat does he live on? I forget what kind of boat it was, but it was in pretty neglected shape and had about a foot of barnacles growing off the bottom. He had never sailed across the gulfstream or anywhere else for that matter. Turns out he hadn`t left the dock in years. He did own a sweet Cadillac so I`ll give him props for that.

PS: I believe the name of jerks boat was Nomad or something to that effect. Go figure! ;D

Rofl- The other day someone cmplimented me on our "nice little daysailor"

THEN he saw the Texas numbers!!!

When I mentioned we were on our third cruise from Texas across to Florida, he wanted to know more about the boat-grin.

Here in Gulfport we'gotten nothing but respect for the boat.

I've been getting a lot of naysayer "you're going to die" talk from the people I've met while I took my courses and while I've been shopping for a boat.

The "you can't do that in a boat that size". You will be so uncomfortable (I lived in an M1A1 tank for a year straight), "boats that size were not meant to sail oceans" etc... I point out to them the history of small boat circumnavigations and they all reply... "Well, your not them" I say I will be.

Some of the people in my courses even admit they are defering their dream until they can afford a large boat and took the class to decide if this is the next toy on their list.

I may be naive yet at the point we are at. But I've always been a firm believer in the best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't do it.
I take risks but mitigate them. I jump into everything I do with both feet but remember how to get back onto whatever I jumped off of.

Greg

Sadly there are far too many reasons for the nay-sayers and whether it is lack of knowledge on their part, Being an ass or simply the inability to imagine anyone doing anything outside "their" personal comfort zone putting up with those folks is  just part of the gig.

My advice to folks mostly is always to just do it and let the actual experience teach you the error of your ways ( if there are any). Over the year we have met lots of people who started small then went bigger or smaller and so on... Nothing changes your plans like simply doing it...and that is no bad thing.

When we sailed off into the sunset we thought we'd left the negative folks behind but sadly you will find is they are a constant and no matter where you go there will be smeone to tell you you are an idiot...

My means of dealing with the naysayers is simply not listening... Selective deafness being a wonderful thing to have!

All the best

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Yeah, and I just bet that when the s/v Maltese Falcon went in the water the first time, some idiots walked up to Tom Perkins and said things like "What do you need with that much boat? " "I sure wouldn't want to have to deal with something that big" and "If I were you, I'd sell it and get something more managable."  Just goes to show that what works for you and yours, works for you and yours. No on elses opinion matters.

You're absolutely right MJ. The only opinion that really counts is the owners. I just came back from a short business trip to Vancouver and was lucky enough to spend 2 nights on a friends trawler rather than a hotel room. Early on the 2nd  day there were 3 people washing a 60 + foot power boat that the marina owner stated rarely gets used. Around 5pm about 12 people showed up to the polished yacht and headed out. We BBQ'd on the trawler, drank wine and had a wonderful evening. Around 10 pm the yacht returns and approachs the marina, swings around to back in with thrusters blazing fore and aft, then began backing into the wrong slip.Upon realizing this, the capt.... well lubricated....began a series of manouvers to get out and around to his proper slip. Engines revved, the thrusters blasted...over and over. He did manage to get backed into his own slip with no harm done....all the while with music playing and his guests...looking splendid in their  'proper attire'  continued chatting and drinking. About 45 minutes later all the guests were gone and the owner was headed towards the parking lot as well.
  NONE of this is bad.Here is a guy taking friends out for an evening cruise.They were not that loud nor was his seamanship that bad. What saddened me was he will never know what it is like to truly own a boat.I'm sure the next day the cleanup crew will be back to make it prestine again.I'm sure it will again sit for lengthy periods until another 'deal' must be made and guests taken out....at which time they will re-appear to once more have it looking great for the owner upon his arrival.
  It is 'his' boat and only 'his' opinion counts. I simply cannot relate on any level. I like to truly know my boat.I maintain it, I wash it and I hang around on it. I'm sure he doesn't care about my opinion of the way he uses his vessel. I certainly don't care what he would think if I was tied up beside him with my 45 yr old 22fter either. Point being....the view aft would be the same from both.

Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on August 22, 2009, 01:53:59 AM

What a total ass! Wonder how many oceans he has crossed if any. Or if his boat even leaves the dock.

Interesting story here.

Several years ago, he lost a boat offshore along the east coast.  He got hit with some weather.  In all candor, I don't remember much of the story, or if she went down or if he just abandoned her.

Last year, after a decade or two away from sailing after that 'adventure,' he bought a Morgan 41 OI ketch and started getting her ready to "complete his trip" as he put it.  I thought that sounded pretty cool.

As he prepared to leave in December, repeatedly putting off his departure date due to weather or some system or other not being quite ready, he was catching a LOT of grief from the Armchair crowd.  They were criticizing him for even considering going and were trying to talk him into NOT leaving.

I was quite vocal in my defense of him.  "He's a grown man, a sailor with some sea time, and I'm sure he can make his own decisions."  My words tended to fall on deaf ears, of course.  Finally he DID leave - without fanfare and with no (or few) goodbyes.  Just one day his slip was empty.

So you can imagine my surprise when I was getting the 'naysayer' treatment from him. ???

Robert Heinlein introduced the idea of 'rational anarchist' in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress.  This philosophy basically states that no law, rule or convention causes a man to behave a certain way.  Each man is ultimately responsible for his own actions and must bear the consequences of his own decisions.

If we choose to sail a boat at all, inland or offshore, big boat or small boat, whatever happens "out there" is on our shoulders - individually - good and bad.  For my part, well, I've never since adulthood needed others to make decisions FOR me.  I might ask for input, but the 'buck stops here' as they say.

I have always suspected that there was a hint of envy in the minds of the naysayers. Seems as is they are trying to stop everyone else from going to justify why they have never done anything themselves.

I was at work (hospital/nurse)  the other night and browsing the forum and a co-worker glanced over my shoulder and asked what I was looking at.  I explain the sites purpose and my 2-3yr plan to get out there cruising. At first the comments are positive and a few " i wish I could do that" thrown around. Then the conversation takes a turn to financing the cruise. I explain the market for sailboats right now and that a there are a lot of good deals around if you know what to look for and keep the boat simple and small.  Then showed her a few examples on some classifieds. I go own about I`m just gonna take off with whatever money I have after making the boat seaworthy and comeback find employment when the money runs out. She ask if my amount will be around $100,00? I`m asking where did you pull that number from? She says I would need at least that much to do what I would intend to do (sail around the Bahamas). So I explain that a 100 grand would be nice but I have a far lower number in mind like 5 to 10 grand. Oh you can`t do it on that, she says. So I ask her how much she had when she sailed around the Bahamas? That shut her up and she left.

Only a few minutes later another coworker starts on and on about pirates and I was a fool to sail those "dangerous countries".

OK my point is that when we talk to others that have never sailed or never had the testicular fortitude to have any kind of an adventure and make negative comments. The comments are really not reasons why WE should not go out and do it, but their  subconscious coming thru justifying why THEY are a bunch of chicken shits. ;D

I was comming into Oreintal N.C. after a day of voyaging down the ICW. I had small carft winds and seas of 3 to 6 feet in the bays. I saw almost no boats. I went to the fuel dock on a Sunday afternoon and the "yachties"  raised up cards with numbers on it just like in the games and gave my boat ratings of less than 4. I had been over 7000 miles in my boat then.

I could care less what the Land people say. I know better.

Living in Key West Fl, A lot of poeple have heard of my travels and are respectful, green with envey, ect.... for what I have done.

Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on August 23, 2009, 02:22:32 AM
Only a few minutes later another coworker starts on and on about pirates and I was a fool to sail those "dangerous countries".

LOL   ;D - next time you may want to mention that for some of us your coworkers are in one of those "dangerous countries".

Methinks making your own decisions and living with the consequences is a less common concept that times passed  ::)

Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on August 23, 2009, 08:16:21 AM
LOL   ;D - next time you may want to mention that for some of us your coworkers are in one of those "dangerous countries".

I actually brought up that point. Far more dangerous parts in the good old USA than the Bahamas. A lot of my coworker have never ventured outside of the USA and have no real concept of how the rest of the world lives. I have been fortunate to live in Italy for 5 yrs and traveled thru the rest of eastern Europe during that time. Never once felt unsafe. America is a far more dangerous country with a lot more violent crime. Hard to explain that to people that have never traveled outside their comfort zone.

Quote from: Lynx on August 23, 2009, 07:53:09 AM
the "yachties"  raised up cards with numbers on it just like in the games and gave my boat ratings of less than 4. I had been over 7000 miles in my boat then.

That is at once funny and rude. The question one must ask was whether they were rating your boat or your docking? *grin*

I hasten to tell a story or so of my own.

A year or so ago I was having a rainy Sunday morning brunch with my girl friend's family at Severn Inn just outside of Annapolis. The Inn is on the Severn River and has some rather challenging docks (at another time the only way I could get in was to drop anchor and snub against that as I backed into a slip in a modified Med moor). The noise level in the dining room raised noticeably and attention clearly focused on a small-ish (28 - 30 foot) sailboat trying to make the dock. Janet knows me well enough to know what to expect when I took off my coat and tie and headed for the door. One of the waiters and I helped them dock and the Janet had rustled up a towel for us by the time we got back inside.

The summer I spent sailing a Catalina 22 with my then girl friend was lovely. We often started early or where last to arrive (or both) among the boats we sailed with. Everyone was lovely and made room for us in rafts. The caliber of our cooking probably didn't hurt.

Perhaps it is off-topic for this thread, but there are some very decent people out there.

As long as they're not being disrespectful about my plans and dreams, I try to use the opportunity to expose the naysayers to something they've had no exposure to.  They don't think your plans 'compute' because they have no perspective, and their point of view, IMHO, is a perfectly natural human response.  Some people have an inquiring mind, but the majority don't.  Like many animals who have a limited hunting radius and often die within a couple miles of where they were born, humans often live their lives with blinders, are short-sighted, insular, and very narrow-minded.  They know what they were raised to know, and don't reach beyond that.  Some naysayers are rude with their opinions, but I try to consider that they're that way because they simply don't know any better, and such is the pity.  The bright side is that if most people understood the beauty, peace, fulfillment, and enrichment of sailing, our anchorages would be a lot more crowded.  

People generally make their opinions based on their personal experience. While in Vancouver on my friends trawler, I stated how it would be really nice to have a Cdory 22 out there to explore on. He replied "you couldn't spend much time on a 22....it would be way too small. I explained that it would be a great boat, easy on fuel, trailerable, cheap to store and on top of that....I was used to a much smaller interior. I went on to say what a luxury it would be to have room out back for a few deck chairs like you could on a Cdory....something I couldn't do on my sailboat. He looked at me like I had horns or came from another planet. It simply 'did not compute' to his reality. His trawler is a 42. In his mind...how could I possibly find 'luxury' on a 22fter. We agreed to dissagree.

Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on August 23, 2009, 09:36:16 AM

Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on August 23, 2009, 08:16:21 AM
LOL   ;D - next time you may want to mention that for some of us your coworkers are in one of those "dangerous countries".

I actually brought up that point. Far more dangerous parts in the good old USA than the Bahamas. A lot of my coworker have never ventured outside of the USA and have no real concept of how the rest of the world lives. I have been fortunate to live in Italy for 5 yrs and traveled thru the rest of eastern Europe during that time. Never once felt unsafe. America is a far more dangerous country with a lot more violent crime. Hard to explain that to people that have never traveled outside their comfort zone.

How true. I read a rating once about the safeness of countries. The US was ranked something like 12 out of say 15. with Iraq being 15.

It comes back to the old adage....

  "Be careful with whom you share your dreams, those who have already abandoned theirs will try to get you to do so also."

  The world is full of those people.  Thankfully, there are some like those who have replied already on this thread.  ;D



 

With all the viable and beautiful choices that exist in boating, I often wonder why each choice isn't satisfying enough for those who chose them. But alas it seems that many, many folks need to negate other people's choices that are different to rationalized or justify there own.

I run across this often when I mentioned that I sail without an engine. I am newly rediscovering sailing (about 5 years now) and have been slowly increasing my/our capabilities and range (and I have a few crazy dreams). But each step along the way there has been no shortage of naysayers with stories of the dire fate which awaits us since we don't have an engine to "save" us.

It could be a full time job debating the issue but it is easier and more fun to just go sailing.

Cheers, Bill

Good for you, Bill.  I love to hear that.  There are indeed those times when an engine may "save" us, but sailing without an engine is really all about planning ahead.  Plan ahead so everything goes smoothly, and plan ahead so we don't get into those predicaments to begin with.  That's really good seamanship even with an engine.  If the spot is a little too tight to sail into, well, that's what they make warping lines for.  Right?
A friend of mine had a John Alden version of the English pilot cutter.  I had watched it for him while he was off making some money, and when he returned, he was heading for the Mediterranean.  He said, "I'm getting sick and tired of hauling that engine around.  It just doesn't earn its keep.  Would you be willing to help me haul it out, and sell it for me while I'm in the Med.?  You can send me the money when I get back to the V.I."  So he sailed all over the Med., an area loaded with teeny little over-crowded harbors, and did great.
The previous owner of one of our boats allowed water back into the engine, and let it go until the engine was good for nothing but a dinghy mooring, and that's what it was used for.  We sailed all over the VI without an engine, and even got pretty good at sailing it backwards when needed.
Another fellow we knew had a 38-ft. schooner, which he kept in an inside slip on one the marina's inside piers.  He'd back it out of the slip under sail, spin it around between the piers, and sail it out of the marina, all under sail.  Coming in, if he had momentum enough, he's spring into the slip.  If not, he's grab a windward piling or boat and hand on a line until he ran a warp.  And this was a boat with a full keel and keel-hung rudder!!
Ignore the naysayers.  There was a day when the world was covered with sailboats, and none of them had engines.  You're enjoying a true art form.

:sigh: I'm currently moored up the lower arm of the Fraser River. There used to be warping buoys from the Sandheads buoys to both Steveston and Lund, which were simply particularly well-anchored buoys with fittings designed to take the strain of biggish ships warping against the river current. No more, they're gone like the windlasses of the Seattle Ship Canal and the many structures of Boston Harbor.

There are places it is unsafe to manage without motors, because the infrastructure has changed.

On the other hand, I've sailed my little boat into places that have had others - especially people on the big shiny boats - fearing for my safety. Everyone up island was surprised to see me sail in from the fog without radar; a couple of them actually got angry with me for it. Yes, it's foggy up there, but we were making the required sound signals, and we'd have been perfectly safe if everyone else had done so too (btw: none of them did. I mean none of them, other than the ferry.) Luckily by sailing we could hear everyone else, and be prepared to get out of their way.

Our little motor (~8 hp) doesn't help us too much. Even with the motor we have to carefully plot the tidal currents, and if there's any wind at all I prefer the sails (I can go faster with 'em, too.) Knowing I have to keep track of the tides, have to plot where we're going to drop the hook until the current turns again, makes me more familiar with the waters I'm going to be traveling through. I have to keep track of my speed more closely too, know exactly where I am, and make changes to my piloting and navigation constantly. I hope it is making me a better seaman, a better navigator, even though I seem to get caught out by more things the more I sail.

My mum is terrified of water, can't swim, and thinks I'm crazy to be boating in big water. But the more I do it, the less she says bad about it. I figure the same thing about the landbound naysayers.

My intent was not to bring up the whole engine verses engineless debate because I just don't think it matters anymore. I imagine that most of the coastal place in the world were discover without any infrastructure by travelers with oars or sail. But as time went on it was only natural that we wanted less risk and more convenience. I get that, no worries.

But in the Pacific Northwest people happily cruise the inside passage in kayaks, rowboats, sailboats, motor sailors, power boats, tug boats, fishing boats, ferries and cruise ships (and I am sure I missed something). And I am pretty sure that they feel that their choice is pretty safe but many others with different choices might just shake their heads.

I like to look at this topic a different way. If some has the confidence and capability to do something that I don't feel comfortable doing, like say kayaking to Alaska, I salute them.

After all, we are all pushing the boundary in someone else's mind.

Cheers, Bill

I too am cruising the PNW. My wife mentioned that she finds it refreshing...very little snobbery as we pull up in Friday harbor next to a $$$$ yacht. The mooring fields are full of big and little boats. Nobody seems to care. There are a lot of nice people out there.

I woulda give them the 'two fingers' salute, middle finger that is, but that just me and I'm rude like that.

Quote from: Lynx on August 23, 2009, 07:53:09 AM
I was comming into Oreintal N.C. after a day of voyaging down the ICW. I had small carft winds and seas of 3 to 6 feet in the bays. I saw almost no boats. I went to the fuel dock on a Sunday afternoon and the "yachties"  raised up cards with numbers on it just like in the games and gave my boat ratings of less than 4. I had been over 7000 miles in my boat then.

I could care less what the Land people say. I know better.

Living in Key West Fl, A lot of poeple have heard of my travels and are respectful, green with envey, ect.... for what I have done.

I think it would be more fun to bring up a piece of paper and magic marker and give them a "1" right back.

or better yet, rename your boat as "I'm paid for, suckers!"  :D

Good list Bluenose. I paddled a 16ft Sears canoe from Victoria to Uclulet in 77 and then all over the Bedwell Inlet area north of Tofino and Mears Island.

Like anything if you use your brain for something more than keeping you ears apart your usually way ahead of the game.

My current boat Turtle is a PSC25 and has been sailed all over the western and northern pacific and then to the caribean (before my ownership). I hear regularly how this guy or that guy wouldn't feel safe in such a small boat.

Having paddled in close enough to touch a gray whale I don't know what they mean.

Now if I can just get her back in the water(she survived IKE) soon I might get another adventure or two before I croak.............martin

Sorry, but I gotta vent because right now I'm feeling a bit sick of "People who don't know what they are talking about" when it comes to boats and boating.

Is it just me, or have ya'll noticed that it is JUST these people to which others tend to listen and from which noobs seek advice?

I'm sick of it.

Each of the following three points relate to one person, that ONE person that EVERYONE listens to and seeks out for advice. Let's call him "M."

(1) M: "When I'm out at sea, if I get uncomfortable, I just call for a tow."

Note he did not say if something was damaged, just if he is 'uncomfortable.'

(2) Several weeks ago, while "encouraging" a newbie couple to "go to the Bahamas with us," the lady was asking about sailing since in her mind, her boat was "too slow" to keep up with the rest.

(Quick aside - I cannot stand the thought of 'buddy boating' on an extended trip like this with EIGHT other boats, but I guess that suits some folks).

Anyway, she did not want to slow the group down or be a nuisance due to their slowness or inexperience.

M: "Oh, don't worry about that.  We motor everywhere we go.  Even the crossing from Florida; there's just no point in putting the sails up."  He said some other similar stuff, but, well, that's the idea.

::)

3.) On the subject of a Grampian 26 for sale, it was mentioned that it had a 15 HP outboard on it.  Against my better judgment, I mentioned that was way too much engine for that boat.

M: "Oh no, that boat is big; it needs the horsepower."

Huh?  It's still a displacement hull with a LWL well under 30 ft, and not that heavy.  Just Wow.

Okay, so M is also the same guy that argued that I "GOT to have roller furling, you should not sail without it."  Interesting position for a guy that 'motors everywhere.'

Also, there was a fellow here last year that was just getting started in sailing and was asking about anchors and anchoring out - for lunch or the occasional overnighter, all on good, soft sandy bottom.  I told him that FOR NOW, forgo buying chain and just use a nylon rode.  M shouted me down saying "you GOT to have as much chain as you can carry, AT LEAST 200 feet."  I still wonder why for a fellow mostly interested in day sailing and overnighting in 8-10 feet of water 200 feet of chain is the MINIMUM "required" ground tackle, but oh well.

Some people just have that personality that draws in others; no matter what they are saying, people will listen with rapt attention and heed their words.

I just don't get it.

I dunno why, but one can see it all the time, he with the biggest mouth gets listened to. The only good part is that often those listening are just wanting somebody to tell them what to do, not really wanting to take the time to learn for themselves.

Capt. S     .......b r e a t h   i n .....   
                 ......b r e a t h     o u t ......

Some people have that "power" over others, be it their voice, over confidence...whatever. We all know a few. Aggravating lil buggers ain't they  >:(

Quote from: Tim on August 23, 2010, 11:34:04 PM

The only good part is that often those listening are just wanting somebody to tell them what to do, not really wanting to take the time to learn for themselves.

Is that really a GOOD thing?  I mean, isn't that part of the problem...that the ones that don't know are listening to others that don't really know, either, but talk a good game?

I guess "know" is the operative word here.  My problem is that I imagine that everyone aboard a boat is striving toward some (reasonable) standard of seamanship; I have finally learned that is simply not true.

Most of these guys are happy enough to hop aboard and do nothing more than point 'er in the right direction.  Apparently, running a boat requires nothing more.  Not my way of looking at things, but oh well.  They accumulate miles under the keel, so they keep doing what works for them.  So, if it works, I guess I have no place to complain.

Quote

Capt. S     .......b r e a t h   i n .....   
                 ......b r e a t h     o u t ......

Oh, I'll be okay.   ;D ;D

QuoteIs that really a GOOD thing?  I mean, isn't that part of the problem...that the ones that don't know are listening to others that don't really know, either, but talk a good game?

I guess "know" is the operative word here.  My problem is that I imagine that everyone aboard a boat is striving toward some (reasonable) standard of seamanship; I have finally learned that is simply not true.

Ahh, no it is NOT a good thing IMHO (just to be clear on that point ;)) 
But I have seen  it over and over on forums(and this is where Mr. Bill steps out from behind the curtain :))
that some "sailors" just want to ask and be told "the" answer, kinda just like they want to look at a screen that tells them where they are and where they want to be.

OK now I will go take a couple of breaths

I am a big believer in accountability.

  We are accountable for the decisions we make, and for the voices we heed.

I know that guy too, and am disgusted when I see those who decide to place value on his words.

  I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...  I am thankful that there are times I might
even have the honor to speak to someone in a way that might counter what 'that guy' says.


Accountability is applicable in many of the examples on this thread.  There will always be voices to lead some to the rocks.  Worse yet, there are voices who lead people to abandon their dreams.  It is unfortunate, but in each case those who listen and heed these voices are receiving the fruit of their decisions.

  I am grateful for those voices that speak Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness... self control.  I am thankful for the effect they have on my life when I listen... I am thankful the the honor it is to count mine among the voices speaking these things.

  These things change the world.;

We decide what we speak.  We choose who we listen to...

We choose which camp we are in.



I am thankful to be here among you all.

Fairest of fair winds to all who read. :)

Well said, Craig, well said.  I believe those are good words to live by. ;)

Quote from: s/v Faith on August 25, 2010, 10:43:30 PM


  We are accountable for the decisions we make, and for the voices we heed.

...

  I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...

Beautiful.  Thank-you for posting this...AGAIN.

I think it is starting to soak into my brain a little bit what you are saying.  The first part I got, but the second part...BIG stuff.  Thanks again.

Quote

  I am thankful that there are times I might
even have the honor to speak to someone in a way that might counter what 'that guy' says.

I never know how my words are taken or might effect someone, but I do get myself into the depressing circle of thinking my words are completely ignored by EVERYBODY: Persona Non Grata.  I find this comes on the heels of conflict with the naysayers, pessimists and those that don't know what they are talking about.

I recently had the opportunity to share some boating "tips" with some friends who just got a boat.  They are in a unique situation as they are boating with a fellow in a wheel chair (brain injury in Iraq) as well as a small child.  I tried to express the cautions we see in this thread (watch who you listen to, including me...weigh everything yourself), though I fear I gave more than was asked for (me longwinded?  ::) ).

Quote

Fairest of fair winds to all who read. :)

And to you, my friend.  Thanks again for that wonderful post.  Time for some introspection.

Amen    grog to ya

Captain,

This is a quote that is quite apropos for these times. When the B.S. really starts to fly, I'll try to remember it...that is if my emotions get the better of me ::).

Fair winds and full sails,

Pappy Jack

P.S. Have a grog on me.

I don't really know what youse guys are talking about, but I just wanted to add:

"So many freaks, so few circuses."

Skylark the Uncontrollable, 1631

Well I worked in hotels and rest. for many years and i developed a formula for deal with people- An ignorant man will talk at you, an intelligent man will talk to you and a wise man will talk with you. It works pretty good! I have trained myself to attempt to listen to everyone because I'm kind of slow and I find that a lot of people are helpful but also because i listen to a lot of people i get a lot of flak, so i try to carry my experience forward to help me do the right thing but sometimes that doesn't help.
Back in the seventy's i had an old town canoe i decided to put a Sun Fish sail on it and the day it was completed a buddy of mine stopped by i asked him if he wanted to join me on the trial so we pushed off into the harbor it was afternoon and a good breeze was developing and we were moving along i had plans to build some leeboards but hadn't got to it yet i was useing my paddle as a rudder and it worked just fine soon we were in the channel heading out into the sound. I had  a first date that night so didn't want to go to far  also the sound can get pretty wild so i decided to come about when i realized that we had know keel and we were whipping along my buddy attempted to move forward on the bow hoping that would bring us about   that time we were coming out of the channel and a northerly gust hit us broad side and over we went i was a good swimmer and was able to break down the mast and secure it to the thwarts and we began to swim with the canoe towards shore a stinkpot came by and threw us a line and brought us in close to the shore and we were able to get a ride back to my place. I had completely forgotten i had know way of turning about- so i keep this tale in my backpack so that hopefully it will help me to take stock before i head off in zeal.

Here on the tail-end of Earl, I am taking the chance to contemplate the past few days and what it means to this thread,

The kind of folks mentioned in this post (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,699.msg32397.html#msg32397) were certainly around and creating their havoc.

The most unfortunate example of this is the lady who's husband was out of town; some of the 'naysayers' got her really frightened on Tuesday.  Luckily, he was able to cut his trip short and return.  He seemed to provide just the right counterpoint and the two of them, of course, managed just fine.

I'm interested, too, in the comments she herself made to me just prior to all of this; she told me that she does not like to listen to "them."  But sadly their force is very strong, and when they literally run down the dock nearly yelling "there's a WATCH in effect for US, we have a WATCH" three days before the storm even got here, and with her defenses already down, she got sucked into their mayhem.

But Craig's words

Quote

I am however, grateful that I have the choice not to listen...

rang true.

Quote from: wallo9

An ignorant man will talk at you, an intelligent man will talk to you and a wise man will talk with you.

Beautiful!  Saw this a few times this week, too.  Some of "them" just don't stop talking long enough to even hear anyone else's thoughts.  That is a great quote.

Finally, as The Hour (tm) approached yesterday, my daughter and I were on our way to West Marine to get a new piece of hose for one of my cockpit drains.  She and I had a long talk about how differently people reacted to the stress of the week.  We also talked a lot about making decisions and taking action from fear (which I think a few folks did) compared to rational thought.

(Incidentally, her reply was "okay, I'm a LITTLE scared, but I am mostly excited).

Fear is another common theme we've talked about here on sailfar and it permeates the behavior of the naysayers and pessimists...and those that listen to them.

Reading this thread just made me stop and imagine how quiet the world would be if people only spoke when they knew what they were talking about...  :-X

I'm saddened by some remarks made by a friend of mine earlier today.  He was not really being a 'naysayer' (he was not telling anyone NOT to do something), a 'pessimist' (he was not telling anyone what could not be done) or 'someone who doesn't know what he is talking about' (since I guess what he was saying was technically true enough...on its face anyway).

But as a matter of boating 'philosophy,' I think it was patently 'negative' in the sense that it basically ignores some fundamentals of seamanship and self sufficiency.

The scenario: A lady and her husband are planning to travel South from here sometime in the coming weeks or months.  Their plans included getting to Florida, most likely via the ICW, then crossing to the Islands.

I was sharing with her some of my experiences regarding anchorages I have actually used, inlets I have actually used and places that I have "discovered the bottom."   I like to think I was passing on a bit of "local knowledge" from having traveled those waters.

Aside: a number of boaters have done this for me over the years and I am ALWAYS extremely grateful for the remarks.  I try to 'pay it forward' when I can (which is not very often, actually), but have found that few folks are even open to hearing.  Maybe they just don't want to hear it from me.  ::)

Anyway, so my buddy came in while she was jotting down a few notes on the back of a sheet of paper based on what I was saying.  I think we were talking Snow's Cut and the Cape Fear River when he came in.

Him: Why not just get a chart or a map, so you don't have to write stuff down?

(she then explained to him that even with charts, she likes to take notes, transfer them to the chart...it helps her plan her travels).

I was talking about the some places where it is VERY important to stay IN the channel...not to cut corners.

Him: Do you own a GPS?  If so, you will have no trouble.

(she then explained she DOES own a GPS, but she likes to 'look outside the boat' [I'm paraphrasing] and knowing places where particular attention needs to be paid is helpful to her).

After a few more minutes of hearing me make my own personal marina recommendations and the like, he piped up again:

Him:  Do you have Skipper Bob (http://www.skipperbob.net/publications.htm)?  That's all you need.  It's all in there.

(she DOES have Skipper Bob and likes it, but she said she likes hearing from others, too).

I won't badmouth his seamanship (or mistakes he has made) directly, but these remarks just struck me as HIGHLY negative.  He went on to call me a "purist" in regard to my OWN boating style as if that is somehow a negative thing.  I think part of that was in jest, but there was an underlying negativity to it that said, to me at least, "take what John says with a grain of salt, no one really cruises like HE does."


??? ???   :'( :'(


When did "local knowledge" go out of fashion?  Just because we have a cruising guide, no matter how good it is, does that FULLY replace hearing the experience of those that have been there that we can interact with face-to-face?

First off Captain here is a grog for doing the right thing. 

I know exactly what you mean because I have the same kinda guy right down the street. He is quite sure the way he does it is the only way.

Yes he has done some sailing over the years, but in my opinion he is far from an expert. I have only been sailing with him one time, and he and his wife argued so much I would never go back.

It is very telling also that I have NEVER mentioned the forums I participate on  to him ;)

John- I can say for sure that the crew of Tehani are ALWAYS happy to get "local knowledge", even if we do file it in the "probably, but we'll check for ourselves" category sometimes.

We had all of the info and materials you mention, I'd been through Snow's years before, so we knew what to expect, but we STILL somewhat surprised (amazed?) by the actuality of the place.

Keep on doing what you're doing. We do the same thing and have found most people are appreciative. Those that aren't really aren't worth worrying about.

Quote from: CharlieJ on October 05, 2010, 03:15:30 PM..Keep on doing what you're doing. We do the same thing and have found most people are appreciative. Those that aren't really aren't worth worrying about.

Agreed!

  Sounds like your friend has never been there, or was not wise enough to learn.  Sad caution for any reading this thread.. may none fall into this trap.

  (* the more shared about places like Snow's cut, the better)...  ;D

To his credit, he agreed with cautions about Snow's Cut and the Cape Fear area in general.  Sorry if I misled, but that just happens to be the point he came in.

We talked about waters from Beaufort down to Savannah.

His message started with "why write things down in notes, when you can look at graphical charts" and seemed to morph into "why listen to THIS GUY anyway, when perfectly good cruising guides contain all the info you REALLY need."

As he IS a friend, I don't think he meant any malice (intentionally), but I thought it was a strange vibe...like why bother talking to anyone when books and charts and gps's and chartplotters, etc have already done the thinking.

When I talk about this stuff to folks, I TRY to make my comments VERY specific to their style of boating and what I gather they want to get out of boating in a particular area.  Do they want to do a 'delivery' type run just straight through, slow down and see the sites, gunkhole, bar-hop, etc?  What is they are after?

I usually try to offer positive stuff that may make the trip more enjoyable to that individual.

Oh well...

I couldn't imagine not asking for 'local knowledge'. Typically more info than charts and usually a great "where to go to get?"at the same time. Her smart...him dumb  ;D   grog to ya

And in addition, since cruising the entire gulf coast, and a portion of the east coast (and the Bahamas) you have no idea how many times we've found those charts and guides to be just plain wrong.

It's often many years between resurveys and new charts, and cruising guides only get seriously updated every couple of years. We've found info in the latest, up to date guides, that was FIVE YEARS out of date. And we have Skipper Bob- he ain't always right either- things change.

And charts that showed 6 feet of open water where we found ACRES of marsh, covered with head high marsh grass. An example is our local bay- the old ICW channel across it was discontinued and the markers pulled two years ago- the new charts just this year show the new channel, and not the old. But the locals all knew.

Local knowledge is not to be spurned and the Mark I eyeball is still the final word.

Quote from: CharlieJ on October 05, 2010, 11:14:50 PM
And in addition, since cruising the entire gulf coast, and a portion of the east coast (and the Bahamas) you have no idea how many times we've found those charts and guides to be just plain wrong.

It's often many years between resurveys and new charts, and cruising guides only get seriously updated every couple of years. We've found info in the latest, up to date guides, that was FIVE YEARS out of date. And we have Skipper Bob- he ain't always right either- things change.

And charts that showed 6 feet of open water where we found ACRES of marsh, covered with head high marsh grass. An example is our local bay- the old ICW channel across it was discontinued and the markers pulled two years ago- the new charts just this year show the new channel, and not the old. But the locals all knew.

Local knowledge is not to be spurned and the Mark I eyeball is still the final word.

Sadly, all of these points were made in some fashion and fell on deaf ears.  Counter remarks that were made:

** Skipper Bob's web site has "updates," so if you use THAT you are 'current.'

** The GPS 'charts' have been found to be more accurate than paper charts; never had a problem

I wonder if what is bugging me about all this is the apparent lack of "my boat, MY responsibility," or a seeming willingness to put the cruising guide or the GPS "in charge."

Example:  The lady said that she likes to have her Plan A (and maybe Plans B and C) mapped out in her head the night before...so that during the day, she does not have to worry as much about trying make decisions on the fly.

The dude this discussion is about said that around 13:00, he starts looking for a place to get to for stopping that night.

I guess there's no one "right way" to some of this, but my old "luck favors the prepared" line also seemed to fall on deaf ears.  There may be a time and place for full-on seat-of-the-pants attitude, but I guess having it be daily SOP strikes me as fraught with "bad luck."  This dude has had his share of "bad luck."

I'll just have to say "to each his own" when this comes up again...

(OBTW, yes, I DID get some sanding and glass work done today, believe it or not).