I didn't time it; but I think from unpack to assembled took about an hour. I expect that time to improve now that I've done it once.

I had my new Porta-bote delivered this morning. Holy smokes, I don't remember it being this big and heavy at the boat show!

Of course, it wasn't this big and heavy at the boat show. I ordered and paid for the eight footer. What I got was the TEN footer. Yowzer.

I just unpacked and assembled it for the first time. Here's hoping it lives up to the hype. And I can not only fit her aboard Seeker, but that I can actually fold/unfold her while there.


As it came.


Assembled.

The closest I had to a leak when I did have propane was noticing rub marks on the supply hose where it went through a bulkhead to get to the stove. There was no grommet in the hole as it wouldn't fit over the end fitting and stay on the hose and I hadn't found a substitute for a grommet yet. Granted, it may have taken years to get to a point where it would actually develop a leak, BUT...

I cut the old propane hose out, and I got to tell you that the hose was pretty tough. That said, I have these vapor proof thru-bulkhead connectors that should stop any errant rubbing at the penetrations. I think I'll be ok.

The CO detector was listed on the survey, therefor became an insurance requirement (darn BoatUS).  I don't have a smoke detector onboard (and the survey didn't mention it, therefor the insurance doesn't require it); but I probably will install one. It would be trivial to wire it into the CO detector circuit, although a 9-volt unit might be cheaper (Defender has a Xintrex-Fireboy smoke detector that is supposed to be suitable for marine use for $12.99). They are very cheap on the electrons.

I tend to agree with Capt Smollett on the sensors and think I will wire the boat up the way I originally mentioned (control/sensor panel to a dedicated circuit on the electrical panel) and use it as required. If the required juice was similar to the smoke/co detectors, or if I had significantly more battery capacity, I'd leave them running all the time as a Best Practice; but battery capacity is limited, and the value seems limited as well. They will certainly be running whenever the gas is on. They have to be, as they are powered by the same panel that controls the solenoid. I'll probably just plan on leaving the switch on for a few minutes after I'm done cooking just to feel good; but I'm not sure I see any real advantage.

I have a CO detector.

The manual for a next generation system suggests that the sensors should be on whenever the boat is occupied.

sniffer at lowest point in bilge below waterline would seem prudent, maybe on timer, just $0.02, cheers

Sniffer one is currently in the bilge sump (not at the lowest point...I don't want the thing covered in water!). Sniffer two is under the cooktop which sort of makes sense as that is the only place in the boat where a propane connection is made. The current system will draw more than 12 amp-hrs a day from the battery (currently a 90 amp-hr group 24, but soon to be upgraded to a pair of group 27s). Recognizing that it is undesirable to have the battery drop below 50%, and that getting that top 10% of capacity can be a challenge, the battery really only has a useful capacity (without unduly stressing it) of 36 amp hours. The sensors will use a third of that capacity up every day.

A timer, while possible, would be a pain to implement. Especially considering the sensors aren't exactly "instant on" and take a few minutes to warm up. Not to mention, it always alarms (by design) during the self test phase of bootup. (can you imagine the alarm going off every thirty minutes or so?).

As a point of comparison, my "chartplotter" (a glorified mounted GPS maybe a little bigger than a typical handheld) uses somewhat south of 3/4 of an amp if the screen isn't at max brightness. These sensors alone are using just slightly less juice than the GPS. Prudent, maybe;  but I'm not sure it is practical to keep it running all the time.

I figure my solar panels might be generating 25 amp-hrs a day (they aren't hooked up yet, so I'm making some guesses based on anecdotal evidence from other sailors...4-20 watters will be installed on the dodger). The sensors would use up HALF of my daily solar capacity.

Basically, while half an amp doesn't seem like much, it does seem to add up pretty quickly in real terms.

So, given the criteria I outlined in the original message, I just don't see a significant benefit, safety or otherwise, to leaving it running all the time. I can see the use of having it power up every time the boat is occupied (via the battery switch) if the boat is only occasionally used (especially with the motor topping off the battery at the beginning and end of every day trip). And I can see its' use in a boat with a large amount of storage and generating capacity. I'm just having a hard time justifying it in a small cruising boat (even if I'm only cruising for a week or two at a time, currently).

Item 1: My new Bayfield has a propane cooking system. It used to have a propane water heater, too; but I didn't find it worth the trouble and removed it (eBay, soon). Propane works, it is convenient, it is already installed, it is staying (for anyone thinking about talking me into kerosene or alcohol). The tank lives outboard on the stern pulpit.

Item 2: I've been so frustrated with a phantom drain of amps in the boat, I decided to redo the entire electrical system. It is now much improved (and almost done). I've used modern, properly sized boat wire everyplace. I've broken circuits out into a couple different panels. I have a battery monitor. I'm happy. Or at least I was...

The problem: I finally got around to hooking up the xintrex S-2 (preexisting) propane sniffer/solenoid control to house power this past weekend. As expected, the solenoid burns about one amp, which is totally acceptable. What is less acceptable is the propane sniffers (one in the bilge, one in the cabinet directly under the stove) burn around .5 or .6 amps. Now, given that you'd think that the sniffers should be turned on whenever the boat is occupied (and maybe always, depending on your philosophy), I find that the 12 amp-hrs or more a day, just for monitoring, to be an overly serious drain on my limited battery (and charging) capacity. THIS is clearly a big contributor to my phantom battery drain.

The solution: As far as I know, sniffers are not required equipment. However, they do seem rather prudent. I'm thinking of wiring the Xintrex control/sniffer system up to a spare switch on the circuit breaker panel. I figure a decent compromise might be to throw the switch whenever the valve on the tank is on. When I'm well done with whatever cooking I'm doing, I could close the manual valve, and kill the Xintrex at the panel. This has the advantage of saving some electrons and giving me a third place to kill the propane if necessary (at the xintrex control panel, at the tank, and now at the electrical panel). It has the disadvantage of losing full time monitoring.

I post looking for the opinions of those who may be seeing something that I'm missing. I think with the tank at the rail, the solenoid at the tank, and the new propane line entering the hull through a vapor tight fitting, that I'm covering the important safety bases. Am I missing something?

The current setup includes a little Lowrance Elite-4M chartplotter (rather small display...this is my primary GPS), my android phone which does a pretty decent job as a backup plotter, an old IBM Thinkpad T40 running linux and OpenCPN with a hockey puck style GPS reciever just because I'm a geek. When I finish wiring it up, the GPS will connect to the VHF which will give me some basic nav data, although this is mostly just relayed stuff, plus it is an AIS reciever which really just seems like a good idea. I have papercharts of my cruising areas, and dividers and parallel rule.

Nothing celestial. Given my current cruising grounds (Chesapeake), celestial makes little sense. Perhaps when I'm ready to head further afield I may pick it up. Or not. I can buy a whole bunch of handheld GPSs for the cost of a decent sextant. So long as the satelites don't fall out of the sky...

I used to have binoculars (I took them with me to Costa Rica where they got stolen, along with everything else I brought that I wasn't physically carrying on me), and will replace them soon. I still visually look for bouys, and they help a lot. They are also handy for just looking around. I have a handheld LED spotlight that is pretty bright and very useful for finding bouys in the dark (where they are actually easier to identify due to their reflective markings). I think it is fair to include my depth sounder in my navigation tools, as well.

I have a couple old hiking compasses on board usually, along with the ships compass.

The GPS chartplotter is pretty light on the electrons (specs call for 0.75amps...I'll probably check that this year with the battery monitor) so I have it turned on most of the time. I do periodically turn it off and just run on pilotage, just to keep in practice.

You are in Annapolis? Shoot, I'm just up the bay a tad in Baltimore. Maybe I should come by sometime for a chat...

Oh, yeah. Anchor lights. A Bebi Owl LED anchor light would set you back a little less than an amp-hour every night.

Given the criteria you've given and the minimum needed electronics, it sounds like your seven watter will be OK. No VHF radio, though? Even a hand held will draw some amps, although last I checked a radio was not required gear. At least a simple GPS is pretty standard equipment now-a-days as well, although no one says you have to have one (it's hard to believe that GPS is only a couple decades old, and it wasn't all that long ago that people meandered the earth without it).

7 watts should be a pretty darn small panel. I have currently installed a 15 watt panel and it isn't that large. I have a bunch of 20 watt panels (well, 4) that I'm going to install on my dodger (I figured more smaller panels would give me more tolerance for the inevitable shade given the location).

That said, for your very minimal needs, and assuming a pretty small battery, I think you will be OK. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you have a flexible panel. If you can find the room, on a rail or cabin top or someplace out of the way that will get a reasonable amount of sun, a smallish 20 watt crystalline panel might take around the same amount of real estate and give a little bit of extra wiggle room.

Lets work some numbers...

A group 24 battery might have a capacity around 85 amp-hours when new. The self discharge rate is somewhere around 5%/month, or a little more than 4 amp-hours/month, or about .14 amp-hours/day. That is really not a lot on a daily basis. Let's say a quarter amp-hour/day to be conservative.

A seven watt panel, charging at 17 amps for let's say an average of five hours/day (being conservative...clouds happen) should give you a little better than 2 amp-hours/day, subract your .14 amp-hours self discharge and you are just a little under 2.

Are you planning on sailing at night? You will need to run nav lights (I don't know, maybe 3-4 amp-hours using LEDs over an 8 hour evening). That would put you at a power deficit with the seven amp panel that you probably wouldn't have with the 20 amp panel. If you aren't sailing at night and only need a LED cabin light for a few hours, then you will probably be working at a minor surplus. I'm not sure how much your phone will take to charge.

I've never done the crew thing myself; but I know of offshore passage opportunities (http://sailopo.com) is a crew matching service. Their name suggests that they kind of specialize in the offshore stuff; but they may be a resource. There are others, too.

Or you can just post in the "crew wanted" sections of the various web forums.

As to making them "good crew;" well, I haven't a clue.

I love my tiller pilot. And while it was a hunk of change, it cost way, way less than a kilo-buck. Oddly enough, it really doesn't seem to suck down the electrons as much as I would have expected. Keeping the boat balanced does seem to help. I like a few gadgets anyhow, so a reasonably robust electrical system is part of my game plan, regardless.

Someday I'll get around to playing with sheet to tiller steering. My Bayfield seems to track pretty well most of the time anyhow, and it probably wouldn't take too much tweaking. Perhaps I'm too lazy.

For certain, as a single hander, the tiller pilot is far more convenient for being on a course for a short while, sometimes only ten minutes or so. I don't often get to spend hours on a single point of sail. And, like I said earlier, I'm lazy.

At the risk of repeating myself, I love my tiller pilot.

Oh, and it hasn't broken yet.

Divorced. Was it that she didn't like (hated, actually) sailing? Partially; but only as it related to the bigger picture. She didn't like sailing; but didn't mind if I went so long as it wasn't on her time. From her point of view, it was always her time. So I rarely got to the boat (or any adventurin' at all, really), and became fairly unhappy. Different lifestyle desires were one of several issues that we simply couldn't come to an agreement on.

The new girl seems interested in sailing and travel (we just returned from a great trip to Costa Rica...yeah, the nomadic life is the life for me!), and I think is considering the whole cruising idea. She has been sailing with her step dad; but mostly day sailing as a passenger not as crew. My fingers are crossed that once I take her out on a few multi-day trips (I'm just not really thrilled with having my departure and destination having similar GPS coordinates) that she will get into it as much as I am. Regardless, from the outset of the relationship she understood that in a couple years I'm taking off over the horizon.

I learned the hard way that sacrificing one's dreams to please another just results in two unhappy people and no dream. That is a bad bargain.

I like to think I wasn't judging; but throwing out a fair warning. It would be irresponsible, in my eye, to just say "you know how to tack, good enough for me!" I just went through this a couple months ago with the buyer of Godot. Someone once told him that sailing was easy and the best way to learn was by learning on the way.

Well, sailing is easy, and it can be learned on the way. It's been done many times. As I recall, Nick Jaffe just had a couple classes under his belt when he took off for his trip. Tania Abaei had spent time sailing with her family before hand, including across oceans as I recall, but was apparently not the best of students (ah, teenagers) and really didn't start paying attention until the day she took off (without so much as a sea trial).

But, on the other hand, we've had a few people cross our forum with big plans who quit shortly after starting. I remember one gal who was going to make a circumnavigation attempt in a Flicka, as she ended up quiting after some difficulty on her first leg. What ever happened to the guy in the pink Triton who was planning on a non-stop speed record? I'm going to guess that the fantasy was no match for reality.

If someone shows up here I have no interest in squashing dreams or being one of those "you can't do it" people. On the other hand, I can't, in good conscience, just yell "go for it" when it is clear that the person is completely unprepared. The way I figure it, pretty much anybody can do a major trip; but there needs to be a realistic set of expectations of knowledge and skills. I make no claims about being massively experienced, or even being more than an average sailor. But I know what I know, and I have a pretty good idea what I don't know. I just wanted to give the guy an understanding that there is a lot that he doesn't know.

</defensive mode>

You guys just saved my life.

Nah, probably nothing so dramatic. There is a good chance you would have discovered that there is more to know than you expected fairly early on. Then you would have been on the path to enlightenment in no time.

Personally, I don't think I'd buy a first boat thousands of miles away. Some people do; but, personally, before buying a boat I want to crawl all over it. I think the Cape Dory would probably work better for you and would probably be a very decent training boat that could take you further afield when the time comes; but buying a boat is almost as personal as selecting a wife, so do what you think is best. Be advised, every single boat I've ever looked at in person looked different from the advertisement. As well there is almost certainly going to be some repair work needed (sigh, there is ALWAYS repair work needed).

Panama is a long way from Washington. Be prepared for some delivery skipper sticker shock. Perhaps, if you really, really love that particular boat (there are lots of boats on the market, so you are certain to have options), it would make sense to fly to Panama and learn how to sail there? Just an idea.

So I guess the answer, for me anyway, is to go all LED with no electronics and a big battery bank with a smallish solar panel.

Sure, that should work. A minimal system doesn't need much. If you really wanted to you could probably run your whole system on dry cell batteries.

I've got a few gizmos here and there, and an autopilot that eats some electrons. I'm guessing right now as to how many. I also have a laptop which when I'm using it is probably my biggest current draw. What can I say except I'm a geek and like to have a few toys.

Mechanics, electrics, food preparation, rest management, rules of the road, communications, sail repair, first aid, anchoring, docking, nutrition, at least a few knots, passage planning, weather forecasting, etc...

Like I said before, NOTHING about sailing is difficult. Nothing about driving is difficult either; but you don't send a kid on a learners permit onto the race course. Nothing about flying is difficult; but you don't put a guy with a student pilot certificate in an F16. Really, anyone can build a boat; but a steam bent wood planked schooner is probably not the best first project. Everything about sailing can be learned without too much difficulty; but reading about it in a book isn't going to be enough. Start slow and work up. Book knowledge really needs to become second nature.

A lot of people who probably wouldn't qualify for Mensa cross oceans. Some even learn on the way. But your continued survival is best assured by taking a graduated approach. Buy the boat. Spend some time sailing it. I'm guessing that you will begin to understand the skills you need to pick up on your own pretty quickly without having to ask us here. Slowly increase the degree of difficulty, pushing a little beyond your comfort zone each time you go out. Nobody here will be able to tell you when you are ready to cross oceans. Most of us haven't done that ourselves. But I think you will quickly figure out how much there is to learn once you start sailing. heck, there is no way to know if you will even like sailing without actually doing it. Some people who enjoy sailing can't stand going offshore. There are a lot of boats abandoned out there where dreams met reality.

As to how the new owner of my Seafarer could run ashore, the simple answer is he got himself in to conditions he wasn't prepared to handle.  It is extremely arrogant to assume it couldn't happen to you. Skilled sailors shipwreck every year.  It's one thing to read about what to do, it is quite another to go out there and actually do it. Really. I know that the new owner was out in some wind, probably mid to upper twenties, which can be a handful, especially for an inexperienced sailor, in a small boat. He was likely overpowered, and having a bear of a time controlling the boat. Reefing is not easy when the boat is bouncing around all over the place and you not only have to think about the steps involved in pulling in the reef, you also have to think about every movement so as not to fall overboard or otherwise injure yourself, especially when single handed. It isn't automatic. He was likely exhausted, scared, and confused. Believe me,  it takes more than reading how to do it in a book. You actually have to go out and do it, over and over again, before it becomes second nature.

For what it is worth, when I first bought the Seafarer I got myself in over my head. Way too much wind (gusting into the thirties). The boat wasn't configured properly. I couldn't make distance to weather. I tried and failed to beat into a sheltered cove. The waves were to high and steep to use the outboard, which almost got torn off the stern when I tried. I tried putting up the jib (too much power), taking down the jib (unbalanced boat). I almost got washed off the foredeck. My anchor broke free and tried to poke a hole in the bow. Water was crashing over me every few minutes and I was getting cold and making bad decisions. I was ready to give up on sailing altogether that day. I ended up finding a fairly shallow, but very exposed, part of the bay where I managed to anchor and crawl below for much needed rest. Over the next couple years I kept increasing my seamanship, and outfitting the boat, to the point where the conditions that did their best to kill me that day became conditions that would qualify as exciting, exhausting, and uncomfortable, but not exceptionally dangerous. It took time, though.

From what I have seen and understand, the smaller diameter wind gens are pretty much only useful for "maintenance charging" rather than being really useful for recharging th batteries. 

That is the comment expressed in some of the reviews, but then again many of those same reviews would consider most of our boats suitable for an afternoon sail. 

  I have an update on this thread. 

A friend bought a Rutland 913, and installed it on his Islander.  He said it was pretty easy to maintain 5a output, but said the charge rates you see with the larger, more obnoxious wind generators are seldom seen. (KISS, Air-X).

For me, I would gladly trade the wounded helicopter sound of the Air-x for a light hum if the power output were still sufficient (for me).

  It sounds like the Rutland 913 would be more then enough, but that makes me think the 503 (now the 513 IIRC) might be more like a 20w solar panel then a serious contributor to the overall E-budget.

Excuse me for bringing this back; but I've been doing a lot of thinking on systems lately. I'm going to think out loud a bit here...

Faith's friend claims that it is pretty easy to maintain 5amp. That sounds pretty good to me for the types of systems I'll be running; but doesn't make much sense from looking at the manufacturer charts as the wind would pretty much have to be blowing 40 knots to make that much. So I guess we are really talking 5 amp/hours/day, which is helpful; but pretty minimal. Figure a 20w panel, brightly lit for 5 hours a day, would probably do a little more than that.

The way I figure it, looking at the chart for the "new" Rutland 504 (which is supposed to do up to 80 watts), that is running the generator at a startup speed of ten knots for about 16 hours. That's not a lot of amps for the money.

Of course, wind generators are only valuable when the wind is blowing (just like solar panels are only useful on sunny days). If the wind increases just five knots to an excellent sailing breeze of 15 knots, the claimed output triples to 1 amp, which over a blowy 16 hours would roughly better the five hour output of 3 20watt solar panels. At twenty knots, the output almost doubles to two knots which starts being a bit useful and is just about enough to supply my theoretical energy usage (probably in the 30-35 amp/hour/day range), and maybe a little extra. At 25 knots (3amps) I'm definetely working a surplus unless I'm being extremely profligate with energy useage for some reason.

Soo...is it worth it? In theory I'd say a definite maybe. It seems like it will come into its' own on breezy/stormy days when it may just seem better to snug into an anchorage (but not a too well protected anchorage) and read a book, and when the sun is likely obscured by clouds. It will also be a welcome boost on windy sailing days when it can easily overtake the generating capacity of a modest solar bank (I have three 20 watters to install). Plus I think it will be easier to find the room for this than for a much larger solar bank on my boat. BUT, the amp/hour/day/dollar ratio seems a little shaky once you get the mounting hardware.

Interestingly, the manufacturer seems to recommend this for battery banks up to 100 amp/hours or so, which is pretty low. That is enough to make a guy go "hmmm." Still...I think this might have a place on a small boat with a modest energy budget.

The unit remains in the "future consideration" bin...

Read through this.... there's some good stuff in here.....
http://www.cruisinglealea.com/cruisingphilosophy.html

Excellent link.

I wonder if they are members here.  The name(s) seem familiar.

Good stuff regardless.

They are members here, Chuck and Laura Rose, Vega1860, although they don't post often. I guess they are too busy out sailing (currently in Alaska).

We talked about them a bit in the thread Vega. Their Youtube videos are interesting to watch.