Author Topic: Drogue Attachment points??  (Read 576 times)

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Offline Cruiser2B

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Drogue Attachment points??
« on: October 03, 2015, 08:22:03 AM »
I am currently rebuilding/recoring the decks of my Alberg 30 and am considering adding some reinforcement to the lazarette decks where I would attach a jordan series drogue if I ever needed one.

 I will be adding G10 board where core would be at the attachment cleats but my question is how large of an area should I replace? I will be putting G10 under all deck fittings to prevent water from getting back into balsa core and keep the deck from compressing. Is this the best option for attaching the drogue or should I consider another area, maybe adding some chainplates attached to the hull stern quarters???

Would like to see where others attach their drogues, what if any special reinforcements were added to strengthen area.

Thank you
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Offline misfits

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 01:51:41 PM »
Here's a thought. Why not bolt a chainplate on each side of the hull where it meets the transom?
This would give you two attachment points to share the load. You'd be able to reinforce the thru bolting with backing.

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Offline SeaHusky

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 01:58:41 PM »
I was thinking about the Jordan series drogue and came up with a couple of questions.
Sure, I could research but I rather get your input.
The JSD is launched from the stern, thus there is no need to leave the cockpit. Why?
I understand not leaving the cockpit but para anchor- type drogues are generally launched from the bow? Isn't it better for most boats to have the bow to the weather when on a drogue?

Also, why bolt on designated attachment points instead of using the mooring cleats/pollards on the aft deck?
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Offline Frank

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 05:25:38 PM »
Long answer extremely short:

Different schools of thought...
I’m saying drogue...insert para anchor, series drogue, life jackets tied to an anchor...whatever 😄

Drogue off bow...keeps “bow into the waves” while slowing boat drift
   
Drogue off stern...keeps boat from broaching while headed in direction of wind. Slows drift somewhat.

Drogue about 45-65 degrees off bow, hold boat in “hove-to” position, creates biggest slick of the 3. Slows drift the most. Considered by m@ny (remember anchor talks) to be the best

“Your mileage may vary” 😄
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Offline Godot

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 08:55:32 PM »
I think the point to special attachment points for the Jordon Drogue is because of the potential for huge forces to be involved. Tied to a dock, outside of hurricane conditions, the forces on the cleats would be far less than the forces of the drogue slowing down a speeding boat in rough conditions.

Frank is right about the different schools of thought. I'll take his extremely short answer and make it longer.

Different  boats handle heavy weather differently, as do skippers. And different conditions can call for different responses. There are a lot of different heavy weather techniques that can be utilized including heaving to, laying ahull, running under bare poles, dragging drogues, laying to a sea anchor, curling up into a ball and praying to your god of choice, and probably some more that I'm not thinking of.

A drogue, generally speaking, is something dragged over the stern to slow a boat down. If you are heading downwind and a big blow comes up, your boat could be pushed above hull speed leading to an uncontrollable mess and quite possibly a broach which could put the boat broadside to the waves and risk capsize. Scary. The drogue (and it can be a series drogue, parachute, tire, looped line, whatever) is there to slow the boat down to a point where control can be maintained. As long as downwind is where you want to go, this can let you continue making progress towards your destination, or possibly to a point where the storm isn't so bad.

Laying to a sea anchor is pretty much parking your boat. You shouldn't be going anywhere fast. The waves would usually hit the pointy bow. Like Frank says, the Pardey's (and others) are fans of using the sea anchor to heave to by streaming it at an angle to the bow, in order to have a more comfortable and safe ride.

My experience in this matter is strictly mind exercises. I've hove to in thunderstorms several times quite comfortably; but haven't tried anything else. But I can see where having multiple choices is a good thing. For instance...you are happily sailing downwind in the trades and the wind slowly starts picking up. Since you are going downwind you don't really notice until things start getting a bit hairy. In a bought of optimism you say "how much worse can it get?", maybe drop all sail and continue on downwind in increasing conditions. Until (insert dramatic music here) things, get, really, serious. Since you are already heading downwind, perhaps turning upwind, necessarily going broadside to the waves, in order to heave to or stream a sea anchor is no longer safe. A drogue seems like a really good idea to me at that point.

I'm sure if we put our minds to it we can come up with all sorts of scary scenarios.

For what it is worth, I do have a Fiorentino sea anchor sitting in storage. I got it for a really good price on one of the forums. It's not on the boat at the moment as I don't expect to need that kind gear on the Chesapeake; but I am slowly gearing up (years and years behind schedule...<sigh>) for some offshore adventuring. I don't have a drogue; but I may in the end. We'll see.
Adam
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Offline CharlieJ

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 10:04:33 PM »
one answer- but

MOST production boats have cleats that are woefully inadequate.

When I got Tehani she had a SINGLE 6 inch cleat on the bow, with washers backing it up.

She now carries a PAIR of 12 inch Herreshoff bronze cleats, with TWELVE inches of backing plate under the two. 1 1/2 wide. BOTH cleats bolted thru

I ALWAYS upgrade any boat I sail to at LEAST one size larger cleats- the builders want to save money YOU want to save our boat

Recently rode thru Harvey- cleats stood the test

If I can't put at least two of my normal lines on a cleat it is NOT large enough- upgrade

Now i realize I may go places and sail where many don't but still??

Charlie J
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Offline Frank

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 10:08:18 PM »
To make the longer answer just a bit longer....
The loads are extreme in those conditions on the lines and attachment points. Line must be constantly checked and “let out” in very small amounts as chaff starts before it gets too bad.
I have never been a believer in running under bare poles alone feeling that in extreme conditions sooner or later you will broach be it a huge wave or a mistake as you become overly tired. A drogue of any kind strung behind would help slow the boat and maintain control. Those little series drogue seem a very good thing. My own experience in a true Gulf Stream gale is being “hove to” so I could go below to get a fix. Simply could not believe how calm it seemed compared to the violence outside.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:11:30 PM by Frank »
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Offline Norman

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 10:23:38 PM »
As Adam so appropriately said, this is from reading, not personal experience.

The waves are broken down by the turbulence from the hull going sideways if hove too.

If the waves get too loo to be broken down before they reach your vessel, you set a parachute drogue to both slow the drift to leeward, but more important, create the turbulence further to windward, and allow more distance for the waves to collapse.  The problem with parachutes is that they can be overrun and collapsed, resulting in tangle and becoming in effective.

The series drogue spreads the large number of small cups over a long distance, so that if a wave tosses a part of it, no harm.  Each of the small cups produces a string of turbulence over the whole length of the drogue, and they break up the organization of the incoming breakers over that long distance.  This results in a long avenue of disorganized waves, getting weaker as they approach your vessel.  The resulting surges that reach you are more like swells, and smoothly lift your boat, then let it back down.

In the conditions that you wish to use a drogue, the cockpit is the safest place to be, so it is deployed off the stern, attached to the stern cleats, often from both on a Y harness.  Once it is in use, the wide stern rises to the swells more readily than the bow, so the motion of the vessel is smoother than from the bow.

The goal is to produce an area of small turbulences as long as possible to windward, so the waves have maximum time and distance to fully collapse.

It has been some years since I read the Jordan series drogue explanation, but having watched how far downstream from a piling a river has significant swirls, the idea of a hundred small swirl generators spread out behind you makes sense to me.

Remember, I read the books, and that is what I understand from them, not what I have done myself.

Norman

Offline SeaHusky

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Re: Drogue Attachment points??
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 04:21:56 AM »
Thanks!  Multiple options are best, as always having a bridle for the stern as well as for "heaving to" or attaching to the bow. On chafe I have a few feet of rubber hose on my mooring lines to protect them.
Of coarse the cleats have to be sized and mounted with the forces of a drogue in mind if this is the intention. I seem to recall, but I don't know where, that cleat sizes are not arbitrary but sized according to the thickness of line used for making a "correct" cleat hitch. Having an oversized cleat may interfere with the inherent strength of the correct knot used?

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