Sheet to Tiller self steering

[newt]

I think I got the question answered- for some reason (probably linkage issues) sheet to tiller steering works a lot better than sheet to wheel. Would it make sense to mount a emergency tiller on a wheel steering boat with a shortened handle and use that for self steering over the long run?  I was just looking at the older Baba  30's and Shannon 28's with an eye to convert one to a world cruiser the KISS way.

Still dreaming and thinkin....

[TJim]

Newt,  what do you do if you loose your rudder?  Sheet to tiller, or wheel, not so hot then... If you are thinking seriously about extensive cruising, think about a windvane for steering.  That way you also have an emergency rudder and a system that works much better. Just my thoughts on the subject.... I have a
friend who lost her rudder while single handling from SFran to Hilo.  She was tickled pink that she had a

[TJim]

emergency tiller as part of her windvane....

[newt]

Interesting point Tjim.  I have heard of some training exercises that you sail without a rudder.  Have you ever tried it? But the emergency tiller aspect would be an advantage of having a windvane.

[TJim]

If your talking about trimming and shifting weight to hold a course that's a whole differerent ball game
than steering without a rudder, but yeah, holding a course except down wind is not a big deal.. Steering infers more than slow modest course changes....

[AdriftAtSea]

Sailing without using the rudder is quite different from sailing without a rudder.  In one, the center of lateral resistance doesn't move, in the other, the center of lateral resistance has shifted forward, due to the loss of the aft end of the resistance plane.

There's a good video of sailing without using the rudder to steer the boat on youtube that a friend of mine did.  You can see it here.

Interesting point Tjim.  I have heard of some training exercises that you sail without a rudder.  Have you ever tried it? But the emergency tiller aspect would be an advantage of having a windvane.

[Captain Smollett]

 what do you do if you loose your rudder?  Sheet to tiller, or wheel, not so hot then... If you are thinking seriously about extensive cruising, think about a windvane for steering. 

Not all vane designs have a separate rudder.  The one I'm designing as "first try" won't - the steering lines connect to the tiller.  This design comes from Lechter's book.

I guess losing a rudder is a bad deal, vane or no vane.  There's been vane failures, too...so an equally valid question (in my mind...I'm the one that thought of it    ) is "how do you set up self steering if the vane fails/breaks?"

Pat Henry used sheet-to-tiller steering on her circumnavigation with her autopilot went TU for the umpteenth time.  Earlier in her voyage, she had to hand steer because of a similar failure, but when she finally tried s-t-t steering, she commented that she was amazed at how well it worked and wished she had tried it earlier.

I, like several others here, have used sheet to tiller steering, and I, too, am amazed at how well it works along with how SIMPLE it is.  Until I build (or buy) a vane, sheet to tiller steering how I get relief from the tiller when under sail.  The only time I've had trouble with it, and this was only because I was not set up for this condition, was light wind on a deep broad reach.

Belt-n-suspenders good.  My plan for my boat (ymmv) is to have a vane as the "primary" self-steering device with sheet to tiller as backup.  I don't plan to carry an electronic autopilot ever.

[newt]

Adrift,
Thanks for the video- I am going out now and will try it out. Capt. S.  and TJim, thank you for your advice and expert opinion. My sheet to tiller system is being set up tonight, I will share some pics later, whenever I get home.
Yea haw- its off to the docks!

[Captain Smollett]

Capt. S. ... thank you for your advice and expert opinion.

Expert?  Hardly.  Just an opinionated guy on the Internet.  I like to blow off about what works for me but you've got to remember - I seem to specialize at swimming against the current.  I guess I revel in holding the minority view.

Fair Winds, and I'm looking forward to hearing about how your self-steering set-up works out.

[CharlieJ]

Smollet- what vane are you building? I'm in the process of building one from Belchers book on windvanes. Ours will also only attach to the tiller, with no blade in the water. 

I have the control table, direction setting table and vane all built, just need to put those together and balance the vane. Then figure a mounting on the boat since we don't have a stern pulpit, nor do we want one.

[AdriftAtSea]

Capn Smollett-

Just remember neither sheet to tiller lines or windvanes work when you're under power.  THat is one advantage of an electronic autopilot. 

[Captain Smollett]

Just remember neither sheet to tiller lines or windvanes work when you're under power.  THat is one advantage of an electronic autopilot. 

No doubt.  But I have two little autopilots (they aren't electric, but I do have to feed them) who both like to steer.  I just give one of them the tiller when I need a break while motoring.   

[CharlieJ]

 

Laura likes our tiller pilot so well for powering that she claims-"If I were to EVER have another kid, I'd name him Navico"

And she HATES powering.

[TJim]

Why won't hydrovane windvane work under power....I haven't tried it but I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.....in fact if you locked it down and the tiller down.  It would probably work as a wind directed tiller.....

[Captain Smollett]

Smollet- what vane are you building? I'm in the process of building one from Belchers book on windvanes. Ours will also only attach to the tiller, with no blade in the water. 

I have the control table, direction setting table and vane all built, just need to put those together and balance the vane. Then figure a mounting on the boat since we don't have a stern pulpit, nor do we want one.

I'm going to try the "Running Lines" horizontal axis vane outlined on p 206 for some experience before I attempt anything more complicated.  It also has no blade in the water.

Probably be a project for next summer, as this summer is new head/holding tank (the head came in this week...sitting in the box in our closet  ) and bow roller plus some other odds and ends.   I'm supposed to be that boat NOW, but a work project ran over and I'm not going until in the morning.

[Godot]

Why won't hydrovane windvane work under power....I haven't tried it but I can't see any reason it wouldn't work.....in fact if you locked it down and the tiller down.  It would probably work as a wind directed tiller.....

Never tried it, of course, but I think the problem with powering on a wind vane is that vanes are controlled by apparent wind.  Motoring is going to add a huge forward wind component which should pretty effectively confuse the vane.

Besides, wind vanes need wind to steer, and why would you be powering if there was a breeze?

[TJim]

Actually when you motor you create your own wind.  If there is nothing but apparent wind the vane will still read it and maintain a course relative to the apparent wind and the course you set up to steer. It don't need much wind, just more vane in the air and maybe less weight on the windvane.

[Captain Smollett]

If there is nothing but apparent wind the vane will still read it and maintain a course relative to the apparent wind and the course you set up to steer. It don't need much wind, just more vane in the air and maybe less weight on the windvane.

i don't think that's correct...given the parameters you propose.

*If* there is nothing but apparent wind, ie no true wind, then there is no input for the vane.  The apparent wind is dead on the nose all the time.   If the boat yaws, this wind "yaws" with her, and there nothing to push the vane to get her back on course.

Now if the wind is slightly blowing, very light air, that light air "could" provide an input.  However, if the wind is blowing 1 kt true and you are motoring 5 kts, that wind on your nose is still WAY bigger.  The net apparent wind will be the wind you have to trim your vane for, and again, slight yawing by the boat brings MOST of this apparent wind with her.

In any kind of wind where the vane MIGHT be expected to work while motoring, you probably would be sailing.

[TJim]

Well the only reason to be motoring would be no wind.... so all you will have is apparent wind and in that case it would always be from dead ahead and would be equal to your speed, say 5 knots, and that is more than ample to steer you windvane and cause it to maintain your course which would be dead ahead.
Now don't that make sense???  If not explain why not??? Tnx

[s/v Faith]

Well the only reason to be motoring would be no wind.... so all you will have is apparent wind and in that case it would always be from dead ahead and would be equal to your speed, say 5 knots, and that is more than ample to steer you windvane and cause it to maintain your course which would be dead ahead.
Now don't that make sense???  If not explain why not??? Tnx

  Wow Tim, that was a head scratcher for a minute.... 

The wind vane needs a shift in apparent wind to make a correction.... if your only wind was apparent (motoring), it would not shift but appear to be directly on the bow all the time.... so any shift would immediately be negated when your direction changed and would not be present long enough to make a correction.....

  However, if you had a windvane that was controlled by an electric autohelm... the windvane might be made to work while motoring  and use much less current to steer then just the electric autohelm would use.