sailFar.net

I expect the bulk of you will have tiller pilots. In this case, I am speaking of wheel steering.

I currently have Simrad's WP30 wheel pilot. It hooks onto the wheel and drives only the wheel, no hydraulics or fancy stuff. Sometimes it gives up the ghost and hoes where ever it feels like. I'm considering replacing it - just wondering what you all use and how you like it?

Thanks

John

Hi John.  I have wheel steering and the same WP 30 on my boat.  I sometimes have the same problems you are talking about, but not often.  Mostly in confused seas.
1 problem for this could also be low battery output or voltage drops.  Not enough juice to keep it acting right.  :)
After 18 months, mine bit the dust and had to be sent back in.  It was still under warranty, but I found it was for parts only, not labor.  Bill was around $90 and took about 4 wks to get back.   Never gave me a good answer on issue, but was a board problem of some sort. 
Interested to see what comes up on responses to your question. 

Connie,

Have you tried hooking your WP30 into your GPS? or wind instruments?

I had it connected to the GPS a while back and was impressed how well it navigated itself to a waypoint. I don't have wind instruments so I've never gotten it to tack or anything fancy.

Cheers!

John

ST2000 here.

  Of course it is a tiller unit.  I find it develops 'wanderlust' at times also.

  OBTW, the ST2000 is a much better unit then the 1000 (for those who are tryig to decide and who's boats fall on the line between the two).

  I find better tracking with the gps linked in also.

Hi John,  Yes, I connected mine to the GPS and it did well.  I really have not used it much in that respect.  I tend to put it where I want it and then reset it.   I would have to even read how to do that function again at this point.   I do so much sailing in local waters that I have not experimented much with that aspect of it.  Maybe I will on my little May trip.     ;) 
I have wind instruments, but have not connected that. 

How is it done there has to be a way, i know running with the wind it theoretically would work on its own but i need ideas or experiences, ! ??? I am a utilitarian with no money so a store bought standard auto helm just wont work out!

What do you mean by 'autohelm?'  Do you mean any system to steer your boat under sail, or specifically and electronic autopilot than can be used even while motoring?

If not the latter, then I would recommend exploring "sheet-to-tiller" steering.  Do a Google search for examples or better yet try to get your hands on a copy of John Letcher's book "Self Steering for Sailing Craft."  It's easy, works great (depending on the boat), will be an excellent back-up if you ever go to a vane or electronic gear and will teach you what you need to know to properly get your boat to self-steer (ie, balance).

The concept is simple.  The input to the helm is provided by the changing force of the wind on the sails when the boat yaws. 

On the leeward side of the tiller, you rig elastic tubing (surgical tubing works best).  You also run a line from main or headsail sheet (depending on point of sail) to the windward side of the boat, then to the windward side of the tiller.

If the boat shears offwind, the force on the sail lessens and the elastic pulls the tiller down, the boat heads back up.  If she heads up, the force increases, pulling the control line lead to windward and the tiller moves that way steering her back down a bit.

It's simple and has no electronic parts to fail or suck up juice.  The first time I tried it, I was simply amazed at how well it worked.

Letcher's book, by the way, includes detailed info on designing your own vane gear.

that is exactly what i was wondering thank you soo much ;D

some where on this site is our video of Tehani sailing in the open gulf under sheet to tiller steering. We used it for several days offshore. The only time it failed us was when we were without the jib, running almost ddw the last night of a 2 1/2 day offshore passage.


We now also have a tiller pilot on the boat. After the first day of Laura's single hand trip she called me and when I asked about the tiller pilot, she claimed "if I was to ever have another kid, I'd name him 'Navico'" ;D

Another book on wind vanes is Bill Belcher's titled Wind Vane Self Steering. I'm currently in process of building one of his vanes to give it a try.  Amazon has copies. They also have used copies of Letchers book Self Steering for Sailing Craft. My copy lives aboard the boat always.

I also have an excellent write up on making the parts and using them in a sheet to tiller set up. I can email them to anyone interested. I have several good links, but they are bookmarked in the laptop, and that's aboard the boat with Laura at the moment.

Edited to add- Found the link to the video- Be sure to turn your sound on- the music is a special piece done by a firend of Laura's son.

http://sailfar.net/video/gulfofmexico2.wmv

just be aware that certain setups with the sheet-to-tiller steering work better on certain boats, and that you'll probably have to play with it a bit to find out what works under what conditions.  I've read both books and they're both quite good, but Belcher's book is probably the better one if you are interested in making a windvane. 

http://cruisenews.net/db/pagetemplate.php?cat_id=18

http://www.cruisenews.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=62

I've been experimenting sporadically with sheet-to-tiller steering for several years now. First, I read Letcher's book. (I had a week of recuperation from minor surgery, so I had plenty of time.)

Then I started looking at various websites. Here are a few. The first is very basic, mostly plagiarized from Letcher. The "jsward" and "dan.pfeiffer" sites are very informative.

And the Finnish site discusses building one's own windvane system.

$$$

www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/singlehand.htm

http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm

http://gamma.nic.fi/~poltsi/

For the first three years that I owned the Cape Dory, I was sailing with a working jib, and I was able to use mainsheet-to-tiller steering, at least when sailing from a close reach to close-hauled.

This year I finally got a genny (130 percent), and so I've been experimenting with some of Dan Pfeiffer's concepts -- basically running the jibsheet across the cockpit and using that to provide feedback to counteract the surgical tubing. I haven't had much success yet.

On Buzzards Bay, I don't often get to sail on one tack long enough to make it worthwile to set up all the blocks,  lines and surgical tubes. If I ever do extensive cruising, though, it will come in handy.

It seems like the key to this is, like so much with sailing, practice, practice, practice.

Good luck.

--Joe


Edit:  One Link Removed Because web page contains stolen content

Joe-

Wow thank you very much I'm working on building one right now, the websites were super informative, and it was exactly what i was looking for, hopfully you do get some cruising done in the near future so you can put your skills to the test!! Until then have fun!

Ted :D

This topic was discussed on another thread and I was hoping for more opinions/experience of folks . My boat came with a " Autohelm 1000" made by nautech. Last summer it decided to make 90* turns to port about every 10-15 minutes. It is in my opinion on top of the must haves for single handing. So needless to say a new one is on my short list.

Question is........ what make/model do you use. And what is the length/displacement of the boat.  Thanks
-Sandy

Autohelm2000, 20ft,6000lbs. Very satisfied ..but DO NOT have it on with excessive weather helm..balance sails 1st.Easier on batteries and the unit.

Frank,
If memory serves(which rarely happens) either Simrad or Raymarine absorbed or started out as Autohelm. Sound familiar?

So I've been checking out Simrad TP22 and the Raymarine ST2000.
My hangup is this............is a unit rated for 10-11000lbs large enough for my boat,which weighs in @ 7500# empty?

The ST2000 is the largest Raymarine makes in a basic "all in one" package,without having to mount displays etc.  Simrad does make a unit (TP32) rated for 16000#. I'm of the school that bigger is better,but I'm also of the school that a couple hundred bucks is a couple hundred bucks!

The Raymarine unit is almost twice as fast(loc to loc). Both the TP22 & the ST2000 have about the same thrust. Cost is within 50 bucks.  I'm leaning toward the Raymarine ST2000,just not too sure it is big enough.

Thanks for your input.
-Sandy

Sandy, I would go with the bigger one. Sonner or latter you will hit waves with the auto pilot on that will really put a strain on it like, going to weather under power or the ICW with big boats passing you.

I would also suggest that you get a zippered sock made to protect it from the spray.

I should note that I have a wheel pilot, Raymarine S1. Far to big for my Mac 26M which is maxed out at under 5000 pounds. I am glad that I do not have to steer those long miles.

Raymarine is 'autohelm'. I've had both a 1000 and a 2000. Balanced sails are important for either.I spunout the little drive once on my 2000.When it quit working I took the tiller and WOW...can you say weatherhelm! felt sorry for what I put it thru,used 5200 to repair and with balanced sailplan its been going ever since.

Of course, it depends a lot on the boat too.  My boat never really has a "heavy" tiller... probably because it is a trimaran and doesn't have the problems caused by heeling.  I use an ST1000 tiller pilot, and I'm very glad I have it. 

The main weakness of the tiller pilots, especially the smaller ones which are fully integrated units, is that the water can enter them if they're not protected from spray, so Lynx's suggest of making a cover for it is a really good idea.

One thing to check for, if your tiller pilot is making weird course changes, is check to see if there is anything disrupting the fluxgate compass on the unit or below decks in the case of a non-integrated unit.  On my friend's boat, it was a can of Boeshield T9 in a locker near the compass... it would roll fore and aft, and every time it rolled by the compass, the boat would turn. :)

I have found that hard-chined boats have more of an issue with auto-tiller steering systems then do boats that just heel over more. Any sort of cross waves really seem to get in and "grab" those corners on the back quarter of the boat and push it around.

Especially pronounced when going down-wind.

Also broad sterned boats.  Our last boat had a wide stern, relatively flat across, with a reverse transom. Running down wind she'd sashay from one side to another like fat dowager

Tehani on the other hand is quite fine below aft and doesn't have a transom in the water, and she runs a whole lot straighter, with much less helm action

Lynx,

How do you like the S1 wheel pilot?  I'm debating on that for the Gulf.  Durn those things are pricey!

CJ

Quote from: CharlieJ on January 06, 2008, 09:30:41 PM

Tehani on the other hand is quite fine below aft and doesn't have a transom in the water, and she runs a whole lot straighter, with much less helm action

When she sails by, all the guys turn and watch and say "OOOH, nice aft!"   ;D

S1 - I love it. No other choice for my boat. I do a lot of straight lines, in open, shallow water. Ideal for an auto pilot and for single handing it is a dream come true.

I have put about 200 hrs on it and have had 1 screw come loose and the wheel got so much dried salt spray that I had to take the cover off and wash it down.  I do way to much sailing into seas in winds 15+.

Steers the boat better than me.

When it gets to bad outside and NOBODY is around you can go below and look out every few min's.

[/quote]

When she sails by, all the guys turn and watch and say "OOOH, nice aft!"   ;D
[/quote]

Oh yeah Leroy-

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1199919117.jpg)

Forgot to mention earlier- we use a Navico TP300. Laura says if she was to ever have another kid she would name it "tiller pilot"
:D

Charlie...hate to agree........but NICE AFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just flew in...only 2 of us on the flight. Jubilee weathered well...1st night aboard tonight!! Bottom paint tomorrow

Frank-

I envy you... ;)  Fair winds to you. :)

Well, not quite, but for all intents and purposes it's no longer able to deal with much wind at all.

I will freely admit I had too much sail for the conditions. I was expecting 20kt, so had the 2nd reef in, and the 100%. What I got was 30kt winds, and was heeled over 40+ degrees for a couple hours, before I got out of the channel. And, because it was getting out of the river, I had a nasty stretch of steep, quick seas getting off Robert's Bank.

And, in the midst of this, when I needed to go to the mast and get the jib luff tight, the tiller pilot got over-powered and seemed to jam cranked all the way in. I had to kick the darn thing to get it off the tiller pin.

Today I managed to take it apart and found the power drive belt was off its gears, but even after it was put back in place there's enough slack in it that it slips in any gust..

Now, I haven't had a chance to talk with Raymarine yet, but I have no idea if this would be covered under warranty (it's only 9 months old, bought to replace a 15 yo autohelm.) Frankly I was so pissed at the time I nearly threw it overboard. If they don't fix it, well, I'll be even more angry than I was after the darn thing nearly killed me (*you* ever had an uncontrolled jibe in 30 kts in a narrow shipping channel?)

I'm really annoyed about this because I checked with several shops about sizing the tiller pilot to the boat, and everyone reassured me the ST1000 was more than enough for my 25' boat.

And I'm ordering the windvane within the hour, I hope.

Amgine:

I'm afraid that the ST1000, while it is supposed to be strong enough for a 25-foot sailboat, is really too light for Alberg-designed, heavy-displacement 25-footers like our 25Ds. Based on the experience of other 25D owners, I ordered the ST2000.

Still, I'd be nervous about depending on it in 30-kt. winds in a shipping channel.

Your best bet is probably a windvane.

Good Luck!

--Joe

 I have had both ST1000 and 2000 autohelms. They are easy to use and work relatively well. I found that extreme care must be taken to balance the helm before setting them. I've screwed both up by not balancing and having way too much weather helm as the wind built up. When you take one apart to fix and see the tiny gears and mini belt...you see why balance is so important. Although I've never had one, in heavy air...I feel a vane is really the only answer.

I do plan on purchasing the ST1000 but here is a very stupid question, how do you balance a boat?  My rstoration is about 75% complete, and I think I need to know these things.  Thank you, Marc

"set the sails so there is very little weather helm". Reef the main if needed in stronger winds.

Okay, I'm temporarily back ashore, and have had just enough of the wilder conditions! Well, no, that's not true, but a sailor can dream of reasonable weather, righ?

So, a few more details. The choice was to motor into the wind downstream and get about 2 kts over the ground, or try to sail into the wind once we got to the turn. I'd already made the choice to sail 12 miles up stream, and had laid out the 100% jib and put a double reef in the main. That was a bad choice - I should have set the storm jib up, but the forecast hadn't indicated the wind I ended up experiencing.

The channel of the south arm of the Fraser River has a very long breakwater on the north edge of the channel, about 12 miles if I recall correctly. To the south the water spreads over Robert's Bank, a notoriously nasty stretch of shallow water, but there are lines of pilings a mile or so south of the channel to break up the waves for a couple of miles out from shore. Strictly speaking it's okay to sail in the channel so long as you follow the rules of the road, but you also have to keep in mind that almost *everything* is constrained to use the channel - unless your draft is measured in inches. Miles of beach appear at every low tide on Roberts Bank.

With the 100% jib plus the double-reefed main I was over-powered, and heeling far too much. This resulted in not being able to stay on the proper side of the channel, but I was actually keeping an eye out for other traffic and had anything been approaching I would have gotten out of their way as safely as possible - if necessary turning to run downwind.

End of the explanation.

Now, today I had a *different* epiphany about balancing the boat for the much-weakened ST1000. Coming out of Porlier Pass I met the predicted 20 kt winds, a bit more E than SE but at least they got the speed right. I was feeling lazy, on my way back with a time limit, but I should have had only 24 miles to go, so I set my rather fullsome 110% jib, and nothing else. This was just about the perfect amount of sail area, maybe just a bit shy of what the boat could have stood up to but it made for very simple sail handling.

But with all the sail area forward, and the sail a bit blown out to begin with, it gave the helm a sick, dead feel even though the boat was heeling 15-20. *That* is a truly balanced helm, with the boat just barely tending to head up. And, in its feeble state, the ST1000 was able to manage the steering with only the occasional screech as the belt slipped.

I've sailed several boats which had pretty pathetic feedback in the tiller, and I never liked them. I *really* didn't like how this felt, mostly because the Cape Dory 25D is very lively and responsive to the tiller if a bit more positive of feedback. But, now that I've experienced this, and seen how the tiller pilot was able to manage it, I can certainly see how sail adjustments could be used to purposely get this very neutral situation. For my boat it's clearly going to mean using that third or second reef pretty regularly, and bigger headsails than I might prefer.

I can't wait to try some of these ideas with the self-steering.

Quote from: Marc on July 06, 2009, 07:08:45 PM
I do plan on purchasing the ST1000 but here is a very stupid question, how do you balance a boat?  My rstoration is about 75% complete, and I think I need to know these things.  Thank you, Marc

I would recommend you save your money.

  I have an ST200, that I bought with the boat.  I have used it, I have even used it setup to interface with the GPS and steer to waypoints.  I prefer to either heave too, or balance the boat if I have to leave the helm when singlehanding and if sailing with crew I would rather they steer and look out then set the autohelm.

We did not use it one time on our trip.  Not even on passages.  I still carry it on board, but removed the installed cable connection and have it rigged to just plug into a lighter plug if and when I ever use it again.

I, too, have misgivings about sailing with my autopilot, even though the wiring was installed flawlessly by our own Dan, aka "Adriftatsea."

I primarily use mine for motoring and for holding the boat into the wind while I raise or lower the mainsail. It's wired for sailing to GPS waypoints, but, again, I think I'll only use it as such while under power. The winds around here are usually too gusty to leave the tiller unwatched for prolonged periods of time.

Amgine, as for sail balance: The more I sail my 25D, the more I appreciate the importance of reefing the mainsail early (15kts for first reef). I now primarily use a 130 roller-furled genny, which I often reef/furl to about 110 percent.

On Sunday we had gusts of up to 35 knots, along with heavy chop (typical for Buzzards Bay). I tucked in both reefs while on the mooring and rolled the genny to about 100 percent, and was able to enjoy a rigorous but comfortable sail. When the wind velocity diminished, I'd roll out more headsail. When it picked up--as it inevitably did near the end of the day--I furled it down to slightly less than 100 percent. Doing so kept weather helm to a minimum, except when tearing downwind and surfing down the waves.

Sailing downwind, I didn't dare let go of the tiller, and noticed that my GPS recorded a maximum speed of 7.4 knots. I don't think I could really believe that reading, but it's pretty exciting for a heavy, short-waterline boat like a 25D.

--Joe

Again, I'd point out that anyone using a tiller pilot, especially one with integrated controls, like the ST1000/2000, getting a splash cover sleeve made will greatly extend its lifespan.

Sunday was an amazing day of sailing on Buzzards Bay... I was down in Cuttyhunk for the Fourth of July and we came up to South Dartmouth in a nice run with speeds of over 9 knots on a friends catamaran. :)

This is a good read. I order the ST2000 mostly because I sail alone, and raising or lowering sails alone its a PITA. Also a friend in a Mac 26 showed me the auto-tack, and works pretty sweet IMO. It must be in back-order from Defender, I got everything I order but the auto-pilot.

Gus

Amgine- Welcome to the ying and yang of sailing grasshopper. May your journey be fruitful :)

Almost 800 nm under the keel since then, actually!

The ST1000 is able to manage motoring in flat calms, and sailing in lighter going from beam reach down. Getting the right sail balance has been critical for the autopilot to work in its weakened state. But during the largest part of the summer cruise I had 'crew' who is prone to mal de mer, and deals with it best by steering, so I had no worries about the autopilot. I still plan on bringing it in, but the season isn't over yet and I'm too busy to get it fixed!

Actually, at the moment the boat is moored back up the Fraser River, but I'm hopeful I'll be setting out early next week. May be heading back up to the Broughtons for another looksee at a piece of land.

Land? A mooring buoy maybe- the only thing land is good for is raising veges. I am sorry about the seasickness. I am having a lively discussion on the merits of various cures on Cruising Forum.
BTW- I did get out some, but never North of Sucia so I didn't bother you. She is looking tons better.

Try ginger candy or crystalized ginger. I have had several cruisers say it helped their seasickness. Dan

Quote from: newt on September 05, 2009, 09:15:32 PM
I am sorry about the seasickness. I am having a lively discussion on the merits of various cures on Cruising Forum.

Apologies in advance for the digression. There is one absolutely infallible cure for seasickness: sit under a tree.

Newt: Land is useful also for docks, power supply, and fresh water! Although where we're looking it's is-land, so maybe not for the water and power. Looking forward to seeing the boat, though! Who is managing it again? I may want to look at possibilities for next spring/summer.

I knew a boat growing a palm over the cockpit to disprove that chestnut, and for shade. A coconut they had in the lazarette started sprouting, so they kind of adopted it.

Wayne- PM me when you get some plans and I will see if I can get you a discount. Oh yea- I guess land is good for sea sickness too!