sailFar.net

I don't know if this belongs in a seperate thread but.....about a year or so ago Good Old Boat had a short piece about using a composting head. There has never been a follow up on the story-does anyone have experience with this type of head?

Oded Kishony  ~~__/)~~

anyone try a composting head yet? Their getting very popular with the "off the grid" crowd beacuse their self contained and simple. Porta-potti's are ok but they get  unpleasant at the end and I the thought of someone bumping into me while carrying the tank gives me nightmares.

They've been brought up a few times:

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=176.msg2991#msg2991

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=752.msg2445#msg2445

IIRC, the composting heads have a ventilation fan that needs to be running most of the time, so cause a drain on the batteries that a regular marine head does not.

 you can get solar powered with a battery built in now...last one I checked out was starting at around $1200 by time it got installed. that is a bit above my price limit.
Bill

The fans are apparently very low draw, at least for the airhead.  Not sure of the others.  I know at least one or two models needs to have a heater running to evaporate the liquid matter; while the airhead is supposed to separate the liquid in another way.

I like the idea.  Just not sure if it would fit.  (fit, as in space on board and budget).  People seem to be of mixed opinion on how well they work on a boat.  Some love them.  Some hate them.  I haven't ssen many posts anywhere where someone had a middle of the road opinion; but I haven't look lately.

Well 1200 for a tiolet is a little much. I seen them mentioned as being using by various remote commercial sites so I assumed more data might be available somewhere. Standard tank setup will have to do. As long as i works its not a big priority with me.

$1200 is a bunch of cash.  But if you are just shopping price the total cost might not vary that much.  After all, you don't need holding tanks or plumbing.  If I remember correctly, it is a fairly tall object and you need to have enough room to swing a mixing handle to churn the waste for proper mulching.  If you sail in the very cold, it might not work so well either.

Still, I like the simplicity. 

I ordered one several weeks ago, they moved production, right now there is a 80-90 day delivery (as of 2 weeks ago). I will keep every one informed as to my likes --dislikes once it gets here. I intend to use 3" solar vent for ventilation.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Please do keep us informed. Carrying Port-o-potty tanks down a dock is not high on my "Life List".

<grin> I just haveta say this thread put a great smile on my face... I've been grousing and grumbling for months about cleaning around the head, knowing the problems is a slight leak on a seal which will mean either a complete break down and rebuild of the pump, or selling the last born in exchange for enough money to buy the Lavac I've been dreaming of...

But then Parrothead reminded me that before buying this boat I used to lug the portapotty every time I headed out or came back in. It was a tiny step up, and we scrimped and saved a long time, but we finally got a boat with an installed head. I got my grin back.

Now to save for not-yet-completely-blown-out sails and a non-alcohol stove...

Do keep us posted. I've been intrigued by this idea for some time, although I have no plans to replace my current holding tank arrangement at present.

I met the inventor of the Air Head at the Newport Boat Show when he was first starting to sell his product. He explained that he started experimenting with a composting head because his older sailboat simply didn't have space for a holding tank, and he couldn't/wouldn't continue using an old-fashioned "marine toilet."

That said, the fan does draw off the battery (slightly), and the liquid waste is separated into a separate compartment. It has to be dumped, either into a shore-side toilet or . . . (use your imagination).

Another drawback, I've been told, is you really can't deal with more than two people onboard at a time. I don't know what you'd do if you had guests or, God forbid, children, aboard for more than a few hours.

--Joe

It's been a while since I read up on the composting toilets, but IIRC didn't you have to have some type of enzymes that are added to the solid waste in order to get the decomposition going well?

I've always wondered: 1) how long the enzymes "keep" when not being used, and 2) how much space they would take up, say a sufficient supply for a year or so.

With the consideration of a long distance voyage to "3rd world" countries in mind, not having to/being able to get them shipped seems like a good thing. If the enzymes are like yeast (small and long-term store-able with the right conditions), they wouldn't be a concern.

It'll be interesting to hear from an actual owner soon. :D

I finally recieved my airhead.(they recently moved their operation to Maine and this effected their delivery schedule, however it was delivered as promised.) Looks well made, Airhead did change the design of attachment(to sole). For ventilation I will use an existing Nicrovent not needed since I eliminated shower in the head.. The supplied fan ,I will install on a switch and use as needed. The elimination of the holding tank will allow me to use all chain rode. I will probably add an additional exhaust fan as the head is small (30' boat). The end is in sight, build and install  a swim platform, and some work on the mast, (not sure if I want to paint) i have some s.s machine screws that are frozen and need to be removed. I finally see the end in sight.

Mr. Fixit, 

  Love to hear about your impressions of your "Air Head Environmental toilet". (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/howitworks.html)

 

Faith as a broken handle on her diverter valve.   It also appears her Marlon discharge sea cock has developed a slight 'seep'.

  I HATE dealing with the head.  My original WC 'Shipmate' has served long and well, but the legal implications of my current arrangement require that I look at other options..... (I understand it is a $500 fine if I were boarded right now)  :o

  I have been looking at the Airhead, and  the 'Nature's Head' (http://www.natureshead.net/).  The rumor is that the Natures head was built by a former employee of Airhead, but with better hardware and for a lower price.... good combo in my book.

  I really like the idea of no through-hulls. I am not particularly fond of the idea things sitting in a pot in the v-berth as they turn to dust... but I certainly do like the idea of that better then the 'poop & urine in a bag' idea or of carrying it in a vulnerable 'bladder' (some irony in that).  :P

  Gotta figure out if this thing will fit aboard Faith.... what say the peanut gallery?

  (http://www.natureshead.net/Natureshead_tolet_main.jpg)

Another option is the SUN-MAR.

  Their SPACESAVER toilet (http://www.sun-mar.com/prod_self_spac.html) is another to add to teh conversation, but frankly for the price it is not on my list...  ::)

I have worked with Sun-Mar products on land and although well designed, they do require maintenance.

It would seem that any of these would require a greater commitment of space on our small boats. A typical v-berth installation would have access issues for emptying I would think.

I think you could make your own "composting" toilet out of a 5 gallon pail. 

Make a base that holds the pail in place, maybe use the bail to strap the pail down to the base so it does not move, but can be easily removed when needed.

Use a pee bottle, dumping it overboard to avoid adding moisture to the pail.

Food service pail tops have tabs that snap back on and the tops are very secure when snapped back on.  If you snap just a few of the sections, the top will be secure, it will be easy to get the top off when you need to use it, and there will likely be small openings for air to get in.  Or you can snap down all of the tabs and it will probably be water and air tight, but it will take a minute to unsnap all the tabs prior to use.  For extra security you could strap the top down (velcro?).

Use the original top of the pail and put a fitting on it to attach a tube leading outside.  Add a small electric fan inline with the tube to vent air out of boat, with make up air coming in from around the pail top.  Another way to promote air flow (important for composting) would be to use two tubes both of which lead outside the boat, one for exhaust, one for make up air.

After use, add a layer of peat moss, cedar shavings or sawdust if you want to compost.  If you just want to have a lot of time between dumpings, you could use kitty litter.  I'm not sure kitty litter will compost properly though.

When the pail is half full, remove it and dump it.

I think that this is pretty much the same way the expensive composting toilets work.

i've wonder about that, paul.  composting seems like a pretty simple process.  however, i think i'll let you do the trial run with the DIY system.

I had found this article a while back.  Luckily I was able to find it again.  A DIY compost toilet.  As the author states, this method probable will not be appropriate for live aboards.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/toilet/index.cfm

Since Toucan (28ft) is in the backyard and won't be used for a while, info on operation will be a long time coming, but I installed an airhead about three months ago.  It takes up no more room than the porta potti did.

I checked out the SanMar, too, but it was just too tall to fit.  Nor did it separate the liquids.

Macdiver.....a great link and an intriguing alternative to the holding tank.  Thanks for posting it.

Macdiver:

There's a fellow who lives year-round aboard a wooden Crocker-built ketch in my little harbor off Buzzards Bay. In summer, he uses his holding tank and avails himself of state-mandated free pumpout services. In winter, when the pumpouts are closed (and the harbor is often iced over), he uses sealed buckets of sawdust.

He's a skilled carpenter, and he fitted a toilet seat to the bucket--and he separates his urine. He might not have read the Duckworks article, but his setup is similar.

For several seasons, he was engaged in a running battle with the local Board of Health. But they seem to be satisfied with this arrangement. (Of course, his parents' house is within easy dinghy distance of his mooring, and he disposes of his urine with them when required.)

--Joe

How do I phrase this... But are you not allowed to take a leak off your boat in the USA? Do you need a holding tank for everything?

 ;D

Technically, you can pee directly overboard, legally, in  most places. What you CAN'T legally do is pee into a bucket and dump the bucket overboard!!!

This is technically speaking of course, and may not be true nationwide- some spots have total "no discharge" rules. But I'd think it would be a bit difficult to enforce.

Incidentally, the same technicality pertains to OTHER output also :D although I'd be VERY selective in where I tried that.

Thanks Charlie - Just curious, because I'll be up there soon, and I will no doubt be boarded by the USCG, who will ask about why I don't have a holding tank - My heads haven't worked since I've had the boat (and the seacocks are probably seized by now), so best to know exactly where I stand when they start asking questions!!

Quote from: nick on May 24, 2008, 01:13:29 PM

My heads haven't worked since I've had the boat (and the seacocks are probably seized by now), so best to know exactly where I stand when they start asking questions!!

Nick,

From the "ounce of prevention" department, even if the seacocks are seized, you might still want to 'lock' them in a way that shows, visibly, that they are not open-able.

It's kinda stupid, really...if YOU put the lock on, YOU can take it off to open the thing.  Just because it's locked when they board/inspect, does NOT mean you are not using overboard discharge.

Typical bureaucratic solution....

I'll second what Smollett says above, Nick. They can be right bastages about yer poopy touching water after passing through a pipe in your boat.  ::) ???

And this attitude despite the fact that the ChemLawn truck is sitting over there on the bank, spraying Lord knows what liquid onto a lawn that drains right into the water...

Macdiver - Grog fer the link! "Humanure" pdf downloaded and ready for reading. :D

I checked the measurements the other day.  The WC 'Shapmate' (circa 1964) is ~ 13" high.  It is tough to picture sitting 7" higher.  I know Ebb from the Ariel site has re-worked the sole on Little Gull (A-338) to fit an Airhead in.

  Kurt, do you still have access to that spot?  If it is not too much trouble maybe you can play with the dimensions for me and see what you think?

  I wonder if the seat being ~ 6" proud of the v-berth bunks would be an issue.  ???

  Then there is that darn crank.... neither side seems to give much room for the organ grinder to work.....  :P

A bit more fodder;

  I came across an article about an Airhead installation;

Upgrading my Marine Head to a COMPOSTING TOILET by By Charles E. Kanter (http://www.marinesurveyor.com/articles/kant06a.html) Interesting thing abou thtis link, the article is linked to by AIrhead, as well as being cited on the Nature's way web site.

  Some good discussion on the Seven Seas Crusing Association thread; Composting Marine Heads: Nature's Head or Air Head ? (http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=5900)

  Found a couple of other discussions on various forums, but more speculating then anyone who actually knows anything....  ::)

  I am inclined to go for the the Nature's way head;

They answered my email promptly;

Quote> Hello,
>
>     I am looking at options for heads for my small cruising sailboat.  I
> have started a thread you may be interested in. SailFar.net is a board
> dedicated to the idea of 'going simple, and going now' in small boats.
>  We have many members who I believe will be interested in your
> product, and I would like to invite you to take a look, and maybe
> consider registering to answer questions.
>
>     Thanks in advance.
>
>   Craig (s/v Faith)
>
Craig, that is a good discussion group. I would be happy to talk to you
when you have time, if you would like to, give me your number and the best
time to call. Just a note, we have several using the unit with far more than two people using the head.

Here are some advantages;

Full size molded in seat for comfort and safety angle cut at the back of the base to sit further back on a hull side All stainless hardware heavy duty
self supporting bottle, no thumb screws Easy front latches and a slip hinge in the rear for easy servicing,No thumb screws Larger volume for liquids and solids Fan is attached to unit and can be change side to side
Agitator can be changed side to side Slip hose connections, no clamps
bushings on the agitator and trap door arm

Units can be shipped same or next day No waiting lower price
Let me know how I can be of more help.
Best Wishes
Larry
251-295-3043

(http://www.natureshead.net/Images/SailboatInstallation.jpg)

  It seems like the better head, I just need to figure out how to get it to fit....  :P

Quote"The Head" is very compact and space effi cient
measuring 13" wide at the base, 17¾" front
to rear, and is just under 20" tall.

Hi gang:

I recently returned from a week's cruise, during which my first mate dealt with getting seasick in the (forward) head compartment by using way too much toilet paper, thereby plugging up the tube from the head (forward) to the holding tank (aft).

Stupidly, I rented an "Kinetic Water Ram" from my local hardware store to blow out the blockage. Then, like an imbecile, I decided to blow the system out a second time, just to be sure. What I actually did was blow off the top of the pump cylinder assembly on my Groco head. Result: New assembly on order ($200).

So, I'm wondering if this winter would be the time to remove this head altogether and replace it with an Air Head or other composting head system.

This topic has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if any SailFar-ers have had personal experience with composting heads.

Here's my reasoning:
1) Creme Brulee is a small boat, and rarely if ever carries more than two persons aboard at a time.
2) The New England sailing season is short.
3) Getting to a pumpout station is sometimes a problem.

But I'm still skeptical about the system. There are some articles floating around the internet, but they're the same ones that showed up several years ago. I'm looking for real experiences by real people.

Thanks as always.

--Joe

P.S. After her seasickness ordeal, Lynne says that she's "definitely had it" with accompanying me on long cruises. She said that after a 200-mile round-trip two years ago, but agreed to take this year's 100-mile cruise to a Cape Dory rendezvous on Narragansett Bay. Now, I fear, she really means it!

We have now had our home brew composting head running for a few months of full time live-aboard and the bottom line is it works.

As for the nitty gritty...

1. Odor is not a problem.

2. We are using popcorn and peat moss as our composting mediums it would appear that a $6 bag of peat moss from Ace Hardware will apparently last us for a couple of years.

3.Our solids container (a five gallon bucket and the Airhead also is 5 gallons as I recall) seems good for two people for two months.

4. Our liquid container (2 1/2 gallon) on the other hand needs to be emptied every couple of days which is a bit of a pain but not really problematic. We have added a second container to make it easier to sync into our schedule. Both bottles have screw tops so if needed taking them to be emptied in a local marina toilet is a no muss no fuss affair. For passages and where legal it is simple to just pour the liquid overboard.

5. the total cost of our home built head was about $120 which breaks down to ...
  A. bucket...$3..
  B. small computer fan 12V $9.
  C. Liquid containers were free as it is how our kitty litter is purchased. Finding the right container was somewhat  problematic as finding a container that fit in the space was more difficut than expected.
  D. We bought the Privy kit from Ecovita (http://ecovita.net/privy.html) for $112. as it seemed simpler than making my own urine/solids separating seat.

Our install is very similar to the "Baja box" plans available here... http://ecovita.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/PrivyKit-Baja-Box-Directions.pdf

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Thanks, Bob.

I never even thought about actually building my own composting head, and I might not have the skill to do so. But your project looks like it is doable.

BTW, how and where did you hook up your ventillation fan?

Also, did you install an agitator handle to stir up the peat-moss mixture, or do you have to open the head and churn it with a kitty-litter scoop or similar object?

Anyway, your experience seems to prove that the Air-Head approach is a sound one.

--Joe

Lot to be said doing it yourself The vent fan is mounted to the back of the box over a half inch through hull that goes to the old vent (another half inch through hull just below the deck) You don't need a big fan just enough to have a slight constant out take.

Building to the plan is simple as you'd simply be using your bulkheads so you are really only looking at three pieces of plywood to create the box.. It also makes fr a much nicer head compartment...

For the stirring system (which I don't really think is really needed) I just adapted a paint stirrer i had laying around. But have not been using it as the popcorn and peat moss combo seems to make for a good static composting situation...Gravity works.

Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

I am a cheapskate.

  That said, I took the plunge today and bought a Nature's way head for Faith.

  I have spoken with Larry, at Nature's way for a few months now.  I bet I have been his most labor intensive 'pre-purchase' customer to date.   ;)  He has been very patient with me and I would say that based on the 'feel' of our conversations the company has a higher then average level of customer service.

(http://www.natureshead.net/Natureshead_tolet_main.jpg)

Some of the reasoning behind this is;

1.) Eliminate the liability of the discharge through-hull.  I may use the smaller inlet for something else.  My discharge through-hull will 'seep' in fresh water.  I would like to get away from the current set up.  Interestingly I have never had an issue in Florida (where everyone claims to have trouble) but future travel plans would include some inland waters that may be a bit more picky.

2.)  My diverter valve is broken, and I can not see paying the silly price for a decent replacement.  I hate this peice of gear, since it serves no real purpose onboard other then to be quasi-legal.  I really am looking forward to getting rid of this, and the silly 5 gallon bladder that if I ever filled it with 'product' I would have nightmares about...  :P

3.) My venerable 'shipmate' head (circa, 1964) is in need of maintenance.  I am quite sure I could re-hab it into shape, but would still be stuck with the current set up.

4.) I was able to get a 'factory second' head at a substantial discount.  If I would buy new hose, diverter, and seacock I would have paid more then I am paying for this one.  The 'defects' are that this one has a 'flat' finish (not polished) stainless hinge, and a scratch on the lid.  I had been asking for this for some time, and Larry had 3 of them assembled from parts they would not put on full priced heads.  He said he had one more available as of this afternoon.

5.)  Having monitored those with composting heads I can find no one who has anything bad to say about them.  As a matter of fact, there is a company making a high end cruising boat (A Hess drawn cutter) that is installing them as original equipment.

6.) While I like DIY better for most things, I felt the supporting documentation that came with a production unit would be preferable to trying to explain to a boarding party in the middle of the night why my bucket and hose contraption was legal.

Look for future updates as I receive and install this head.

QuoteHere is a little more from Nature's Way's brochure (PDF) (http://www.natureshead.net/NaturesHeadBrochure.pdf)

Quote1. No holding tank, no pumpouts, no odors, no clogging, no kidding.

2. "The Head" has a unique molded design (with a gray granite color) and incorporates stainless steel components and hardware into a high quality product.

3. This composting toilet is self-contained and waterless.

4. Uses 1½-2 gallons of peat moss in the base for your composting matter.

5. Because of the waterless urine separating design, this unit has extraordinary holding capacity. This could translate into a month usage by a cruising or traveling couple, or perhaps an entire boating or camping season of weekends.

6. "The Head" is very compact and space efficient measuring 13" wide at the base, 17¾" front to rear, and is just under 20" tall.

— Plus! Easy installation in most applications, simply mount brackets to fl oor, vent unit to outside, and hook to 12V power source! (Several options available.)

  From the Owner's manal (http://www.natureshead.net/NaturesHeadInstructions.pdf) (also PDF)

QuoteNATURE'S HEAD OWNER'S GUIDE
Congratulations on your acquisition of a Nature's Head!

Although the concept of a composting head (toilet) is not a new one, the
unit which you have purchased is the freshest of the new generation of this kind of product.

Nature's Head designers, both sailors with many years of boating experience, and their wives—one a research biologist and one an RN, have used earlier versions of composting toilets on their boats. The concept has been refined and reworked to provide you with a more user friendly product which is aesthetically pleasing, more space-efficient, and a more
affordable alternative to previously offered models.

Your new Nature's Head will provide you with years of worry-free sanitation solutions without the inconvenience of holding tanks, frequent pump-outs, or smelly portable potties.

Excellent. I was looking at a flyer the other day, thinking  this is the way to go!. Now I can get a first hand opinion!

I've considered this, but when I look at the pictures the unit seems dramatically higher than the currently installed traditional head. I'm considering a lavac with a post-holding-tank pumpout option (currently there is *no* overboard option, which turned into a surprising fiasco during the latest trip.)

I look forward to your reports of living with your composting head.

We used to have a Lavac and it is far and above the best marine head made...PERIOD. But it is not frugal on the water front if using with a holding tanks so if planning a system that does not allow for pumping overboard when needful (and legal of course) you will either need a BIG holding tank or plan in a lot of visits to pumpout stations.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

It arrived within a couple days, well packaged.

Box looked like it would not fit on the boat;

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHmpu-XOI/AAAAAAAAASY/zALblivyCh4/P9190014.JPG)


The head it's self was a tight fit through the companion way;

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHnGdFRgI/AAAAAAAAASc/1cBiDGq0OAA/P9190016.JPG)

Another shot... getting it in.

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHom_HIzI/AAAAAAAAASo/zq-Yy6dB6kg/s512/P9190019.JPG)

I really like the hardware.  Looks stout and well made.

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHnjIiheI/AAAAAAAAASg/ZNOVkvfqq9c/P9190017.JPG)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHoI2iIqI/AAAAAAAAASk/JIartgzTE9o/P9190018.JPG)

We tried a couple of alternative placement locations...

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHpuiqHhI/AAAAAAAAASw/ICMGnLmBbHU/s512/P9190024.JPG)



THey had drawbacks....

So we set it in place, and covered it up with all the gear adrift we could scrounge up to see if it looked at home.

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/SrhHqNkE5GI/AAAAAAAAAS0/rXHRH8zUPX8/P9190031.JPG)


Issues;

The base fits on the pad that Pearson put there. The problem is the OEM head is 13" high, and the Natures way is 20". My feet don't touch the ground.

I can either drop the floor, or raise the rest of the platform.

Sure don't want to rip out that floor to find that if I go an inch or 2 lower I loose the width....

Anyone have any suggestions here?

Also have to widen the v-berth bunk slightly to allow for the vent hose discharge... not a big deal.

  Other then this, I am pretty happy.  It was nice to remove all the old head parts!

After last summer's discussion, I went so far as to measure the available space on my 25D against a template from the AirHead and Nature's Way composting heads.

Unfortunately, both units are much higher than my original head unit. In addition, the Cape Dory builders made a triangular platform that doesn't allow quite enough room for either unit.

I've been trying to be water-frugal with my current, holding tank-based system by flushing solids into the holding tank with fresh water and relying on a Gatorade bottle for liquid waste. This system works well enough when I'm the only person aboard, but doesn't work at all when my wife condescends to spend time on the boat.

Also, since Buzzards Bay is a no-discharge zone, I could be in deep doo-doo (pun intended ;D) if anybody ever caught me emptying my Gatorade bottle over the side. (Of course almost every workboat and small fishing skiff on the bay also seems to have a Gatorade bottle stowed under the helm seat . . .)

I'm still mulling over the possibility of somehow building out the platform where my existing head is located -- but my technical skills aren't that great. And, while my yard would be happy to do it for me, I don't think my unemployment checks or freelance-writing fees could cover the $86/hour fees.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

--Joe

Oldrig?

If you need a hand, let me know. :)

Thanks Dan.

It's still too cold to even think about getting under that shrinkwrap right now!

Stay warm,

--Joe

Haiden, Massachusetts (and Buzzard's Bay) has "zones" desigating how much and what kind of discharge can occur at what distance from shore. Direct discharge into Buzzard's Bay would cause a real stink (pun intended). IIRC, there is a zone designation for when you can dispose of the liquid waste, and one further offshore for more solid effluent.
Mass Gubmint. Your friend in every part of your life.

Tom?

Buzzards Bay is a NO DISCHARGE ZONE.  Any black water discharge, including pee from a Gatorade bottle is illegal.  Discharge of any head or holding tank system, for either solid or liquid is illegal until you are out past the THREE MILE LIMIT.

Quote from: tomwatt on February 05, 2010, 07:01:30 PM
Haiden, Massachusetts (and Buzzard's Bay) has "zones" desigating how much and what kind of discharge can occur at what distance from shore. Direct discharge into Buzzard's Bay would cause a real stink (pun intended). IIRC, there is a zone designation for when you can dispose of the liquid waste, and one further offshore for more solid effluent.
Mass Gubmint. Your friend in every part of your life.

Dan's correct. In fact, most of the Massachusetts coastline, and all of Rhode Island's, have been designated No Discharge Zones.

You can still discharge urine directly into the water, but that raises a number of other problems, particularly in heavy weather.

I brought up the subject because urine separation is one of the essential ingredients of a successful composting head. Keeping liquid waste out of the holding tank also makes conventional systems last longer between pumpouts (my tank is about 10 gallons), and reduces odors as well.

As somebody who has sailed on Buzzards Bay for more than 50 years (I started as a kid), and who has watched that body of water deteriorate over time, I try to be conscientious and law-abiding. That means when day-sailing I take my Gatorade bottle off the boat and dispose of its contents at home; if I'm on a longer trip, and I'm stopping at a marina, I can also do the right thing. Other circumstances raise different problems.

And this issue is one of the concerns I have about installing a composting head: You've got to dispose of the liquid waste long before the solids have turned into garden mulch.

--Joe

Quote from: haidan on February 06, 2010, 02:20:16 PM
Is there much checking going on around your areas in the states.

Not really. That's why I mentioned that you'll usually find a Gatorade bottle under the helm seat of almost any outboard skiff in the area.

There are places where your holding tank setup will be inspected, though. I keep my overboard discharge seacock sealed according to specs.

In Lake Tashmoo on Martha's Vineyard, for example, they check to make sure that your overboard discharge is sealed according to USCG standards. I'm told they do the same in Rhode Island waters. I've never heard of anybody getting busted for dumping out a bottle of pee, but the potential for a heavy fine is always there.

Places like Tashmoo are almost totally enclosed, have lots of visiting boaters (and a free pumpout boat on call during the high season), and would certainly hit you hard if you added nitrogen to the water.

But I agree with you that it isn't the occasional sailor who is responsible for degradation of coastal waters. Industry, agriculture, suburban development and the proliferation of powerboats all stand higher in the hierarchy of polluters than cruising sailors.

And some places seem to harass liveaboards almost as a matter of principle--unless they're at a marina.

--Joe

OK, I'm going to have to explain that my post was a little muddled. I knew what I was trying to say and I know BB is a complete no-discharge zone... Mass. waters in general have designated zones, depending on distance offshore, indicating how much "more" can be discharged.
I was tryin' to 'splain it for Haiden and made myself pretty unclear. It's marked on the charts though. Pretty hard to miss.

Quote from: haidan on February 06, 2010, 06:21:45 PM
no, I'm serious Officer it's just Gatorade here taste it....
I think I'll stick with the old bucket when I'm doing there.

Haidan,

You've got a good point there. Perhaps an opaque laundry detergent jug would be more appropriate. ;D

--Joe

There is a new kid on the 'composting head' market...

Seen elsewhere;

Quote

Quote from: fireboat52;829542There has been a recent discussion on the Forum about my product, the C-Head portable composting toilet. Both the system and the product are unique. I would be glad to explain how the system works and answer any question about it's application. You can view the C-Head and get information at www.c-head.com (http://www.c-head.com).

This is very interesting ... and much less expensive.

It also looks like a system that one could build easily.

No fans, no ventilation system, and a smaller footprint.

My question would be: Does it really work? Is it odorless?

Has anybody actually seen or used this system?

--Joe

Joe,

  Looking at it, I believe it does include a provision for a ventilation system (would seem mandatory).

Also, what I like is that the 18" height seems to be established by the height of the 1gallon (milk jug?) and the 5 gallon bucket....

They sell the molded seat / diverter set up separately (the part I was dreading making out of fiberglass) so one could make it with a 'shorty' 2.5 gallon bucket and a smaller / shorter jug.

I think I want something more like ~14" high... but did not want to make a fiberglass mold...

This may put some pressure on the Natures Head / Airhead folks to get more realistic on their $$$ too...

Quote from: s/v Faith on December 01, 2011, 09:26:01 PM
Looking at it, I believe it does include a provision for a ventilation system (would seem mandatory).

Yep. I looked more closely at the website, and there's a video on how to build a ventilator fan.

Also, I'm not sure that I'm that happy with a system that essentially asks you to store your solid waste in sealed buckets until you can dump them someplace. But it does seem to be a cross between build-your-own and the higher-end Nature's Head and AirHead systems.

--Joe

Quote from: Oldrig on December 02, 2011, 12:28:59 PM

Also, I'm not sure that I'm that happy with a system that essentially asks you to store your solid waste in sealed buckets until you can dump them someplace.

Don't all the composting heads require this...that is, the solid waste is turning into or has been turned into 'compost,' and during that process, it must be stored.

Or, is this not really a composting head?  I looked at the site, but could not really tell; is it merely a porta-potty with the solids and liquids separated?

My understanding is that one of the BIG advantages of the composters is disposal...you are disposing (mostly sanitized) compost, not actually sewage.

Right?

(Genuine question...trying to sift through all the marketing glitz and get to what is really going on with these things because I really like the concept).

I'm going to throw in my limited understanding of composting heads here in reposonse....  Composting heads do not really ever fully compost the material, but they do take advantage of the process.  I think the main benifit to the composting action of a composting head is that the material within the container degrades enough that you can go a good deal of time without emptying it (it shrinks in volume), and the smell is not offensive.  I'm not sure, but I think more time, and probably a larger mass of material than is allowed by a 5 gallon bucket would be required to acheive true compost.  In other words:  What you end up with is a non offensive substance, but it's still poo...    (this is coming from a guy who does not yet have a composting toilet though, So I'm mostly just yappin)  Of course when asked what you just dumped overboard the answer is always "compost" :)

Well I've just finished sifting through the C-Heads website, and it seems that Old Rig has a point in that the C-Head compared to it's competitors fills up quicker.  So now I'm left wonder why?  What about it's specific design is different?  Does it just have less storage space to begin with?  Does it not compost as well? (perhaps because it starts with less space to begin with?)  It's my understanding that a couple cruising with a Natures Head or an Air Head can go quite some time before emptying the solids container (considerably more than a week).

   Even so, I think the C-head looks very interesting and perhaps perfect for what we have in mind.  I do appreciate that they have made an obvious attempt to avoid proprietary and expensive parts.

Please note:

Dave and Sandy, the inventors of the C-Head composting system have started a thread, in "Gear Here(**)," where they are, I hope, willing to answer questions about their system. The subject is a bit different, "Composting Toilets." Here's a link to that thread.

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3470.0.html (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,3470.0.html)

I, for one, look forward to their feedback.

--Joe


(**) On Edit:  I moved that thread to "Man-O-Facturer's" due to the commercial interest of the C-Head folks.  Other than changing boards, the thread is intact as it was, and the above link works to the correct thread.
(**)On Edit Edit: Thanks, John! I was thinking I would invite them to post here, until I saw they've arrived. :)

Ahoy,
      Has anyone here tried a composting toilet aboard? I've been reading a blog from a fellow I really like http://www.sv-galena.com/. He has a Westsail 32 with a composting toilet. I havn't found what type yet but it seems to work great for him. Back in my hippie days I built a straw built house and made a composting toilet from a 55 gallon drum that worked pretty good. I have to say I'm a little tired of the pumpouts and would love to get rid of the holding tank and not have to deal with it.   Any feed back?     Sail far,  Wade

I know there are a few good threads on this already, but I'll give my 2 cents since our new boat came with an Airhead.  We had a chance to try it out on our month long trip back from Ft. Lauderdale.  You can find pretty good descriptions of how they work else,where so I'll just give my impression from personal experience.

The composting head is pretty good at dealing with poop as long as you go offshore pretty frequently.  Ours came with some bricks of coconut fiber and doesn't seem too stinky even if we don't run the vent fan every day.  It comes with a good locking lid, so there were no accidents when the time came to carry it through the cabin and up on the deck to dump.  I threw on some latex gloves for the job, but it wasn't too traumatic.  Anything left just composts with the next batch, so it's not like you need to scrub it out.   I think it's worth pointing out that it's unlikely that most folk's heads are making safe compost in the time it takes to fill them.  If you're using the head frequently, there will be fairly fresh poop in there at any given time as well as toilet paper, bowl liners, and anything else that is slow to break down.  You're not going to go home and spread it on your flower bed and I don't think it's legal to throw it straight in a dumpster either.  The best course of action would probably be to transfer it to a shore-based composting system for a couple years afterward and even then you will probably be advised only to put it on ornamental plants.  It works for us because we go offshore regularly.  I wouldn't want to deal with it if we didn't.

We've had more complaints about the pee jug.  Firstly, it took all of a week before I managed to bump the hose that lets you view the fluid level.  One end popped off and we had 30 exciting seconds of pee fountain while I scrambled to reattach the hose.  It has hose clamps now.   >:(  Whereas the composter isn't too stinky, the pee jug will knock your socks off.  Even if it's emptied everyday and shaken and rinsed, emptying it is still foul.  Someone suggested we try RV tank deodorizers and I plan to do so, but I wonder about the cost.  We stay well hydrated and two of us can fill the jug almost every day.  The emptying timeline on the Airhead website seems like total BS to me.  If you have more than two people or if you're drinking beer, I can't imagine making it through even a weekend trip without overfilling the jug.  Airhead sells extra pee jugs, but they're expensive.  If everyone on your boat pees over the rail anyway, I don't suppose it's a drawback, but if you're in Boot Key Harbor with nosey neighbors and want to stay above the law, you'll be making a dinghy ride with the pee jug daily. 

Speaking of authorities, I don't know if we would have gotten away with the composting head in the Keys or not.  We were booted out of Boot Key Harbor after 7 days in our last boat for only having a port-o-potty.  The mooring field at Ft. Myers Beach asked for our holding tank details but no one hunted us down when we told them we had a composting head. 

It would be great to have a composting head where the solids were composted and the liquids diverted to a holding tank with a deck fitting and overboard option.  It would save the trouble of needing to empty the stinky, always full pee jugs and you'd never have to worry about clogged pipes in the holding tank.  If the pee tank wasn't flushed with water, I think you could go a long time between discharges.  I suppose if there are folks who have pump outs for their port-o-potties, it should be possible to have a pump out for a gravity fed pee tank?

I have wonder about those things. It looks like they might be fine for weekend trips and such, but I dont think I would want one for a live aboard.

We've been living aboard and cruising full time with our home made composting toilet (a five-gallon bucket and a 2 1/2 gallon jug) for several years now and it works out just fine.

We only have to dump the solids bucket about once a month, while the liquid jug is more of an every two or three days. We've since added a second jug so we can go longer if dumping is problematic.

The bottom line is it works, does not smell, and if you diy it seriously cheap!

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

We installed a Natures Head composting about 2 years ago. very satistified with it. Some problems but every system for the head has some problems. The fan( a cpu cooling fan) has gone bad twice and the power plug need to be upgraded. Still looking for a good fan replacement. You have to keep the media damp not wet for the composting to work. We clean ours after about 2 months of use (two people). The pee-jug we try to empty every other day. To help control the ammonia smell we put a couple of spoons full of sugar in the jug. The DIY units probally work just as well for a fraction of the cost. The most talked about problem, the extra height of the unit, was only a problem for about 2 weeks by then we had gotten use to it and it was no longer a problem. Both of us are short people 5'3" and 5'7".

I installed the Nature's Head after having an unfortunate experience last year with an over filled holding tank (a very messy version of Old Faithful was the odorous result). I had considered making a home brew version (off the shelf parts would be sweet); but my time is not unlimited and I had other things to spend it on (rewiring the whole boat, for starters). The boat show price was high; but not unreasonably so.

With me and my gal (who turns out to be not at all squeamish about the whole thing), the liquids container (2 gallons? Maybe 2.5?) generally needs to be emptied every other day. I have a spare jug (if I recall I got it for free when I bought the Natures Head at the Annapolis Boat Show, though my memory has been known to be a bit unreliable).  It gets emptied in an appropriate manner. I will soon be making a custom fit storage area to snugly hold the spare jug to reduce the chance of it going flying and spilling the contents all over the interior (a terrifying thought).

The solids container does seem to last quite awhile; but I'm not convinced it makes the 60 uses that are advertised. Of course, if putting the toilet paper in the head (and it can be somewhat distasteful to put it anywhere else), it will fill up much faster. The TP takes some time to break down. The poop becomes fairly inoffensive in a couple days, although as mentioned above, is not nearly fully composted at that time. There is rarely a smell. And the small fan barely registers on the amp meter (it is so low that I think I'm going to install a couple other muffin fans in strategic places, the battery compartment for instance, to give a helping hand to natural ventilation).

Dumping:

From a philosophical point of view, I think that discreetly pouring pee overboard is not much of a health risk anyplace that is not unusually sensitive (correct me if I'm wrong) and not morally shaky, unless it is done in a really crowded harbor at which point it is bad manners. Legally is a different thing altogether, and I'm pretty certain it is universally frowned upon by those men with shiny badges and side arms. You makes your choices and you takes your chances.  Finding a shoreside facility every few days shouldn't be too hard, though. 

By the same token, I think that putting partially composted solid waste in a thick contractors trash bag and putting it into the dumpster is no more offensive or generally harmful to mankind than putting baby diapers in there (what difference does it make if it completes composting in a back yard pile somewhere or in a landfill?); but it may still be illegal. Choices. Chances. I read somewhere (the c-head thread, perhaps) that sealing it in a pickle bucket (aka Home Depot 'Homer' bucket) with some bleach qualifies it as "treated" and it suddenly becomes legal for about the same price as a pump out. I'm not sure; but it sounds like a reasonable compromise assuming an offshore dump is not practical. I emptied mine after using it occasionally all summer plus regularly for a ten day trip for two (cheap one ply TP went in the toilet, and seemed generally degraded within a couple weeks). It was not anymore distasteful than a pump out (without the need to regularly go to the stinky dock), and more pleasant than dealing with a porta-potti. I expect the next time I empty it will be when I recommission the boat next spring (although I'm now living aboard part time, so that estimate might not hold true in the end).

The bottom line: Everything in life is a compromise. But as far as compromises go, this one ain't that bad. And I no longer have nightmares of exploding holding tanks. Bonus: By pulling the holding tank, I now have room for a new water tank to augment the somewhat anemic twenty gallons of the primary tank.

We've had a Natures Head all summer.  We love it.  There's never been a smell and it's gone all summer of day sails and a 5 day trip without having to dump.

I can't imagine going back to a holding tank.

John