Sail Far Folk,
This question has been burning in my mind, which is odd given that my new boat was just hauled out and I won't be able to sail until early May. In any event, I just bought a new (old) boat that included not just a symmetrical spinnaker, but an asymmetrical or gennaker or drifter (or whatever you want to call it). It is a very large headsail with no hanks. I noticed that on the tack of the sail is a length of rope, about 4 or 5' long. I assume this is used to attach the tack of the sail to the bow of the boat ahead of the forestay. The boat has no bowsprit. There is an anchor roller in front of the attachment for the forestay/furler. (See attached photo).
Does anyone have any suggestions about how and where to attach the tack of the gennaker to the bow?
Where do you attach any other headsail? it looks like that block is for the headsail attachment (maybe below?); that pennant should attach as any other headsail or spinnaker.
For what it's worth on terminology, I use the term "drifter" to specifically mean a large genoa cut headsail but of very light weight (like 2 oz nylon, for example) rather than a heavier "cruising genoa" would have. It has hanks, but can be set flying as well if off the wind.
A drifter is essentially a light air genoa, cut in a way that makes it useful upwind.
To my mind, gennakers and asymmetrical spinnakers are cut differently and not for use with the wind higher than the beam.
Now, none of that may be how others use the terms, but that's how I've used them in communication with sail makers who also used them the same way (ie, we communicated).
Not trying to be pedantic on terminology so much as throwing it out there for discussion. We are in need of a good "Debate." ;D
Captain,
The block in the photo is aft of the forestay attachment. I assume that block is there for a downhaul halyard for the jib (before the furler was added).
As the sail I'm talking about has no hanks and is flown in front of the forestay, I'm assuming I need to attach the tack ahead of the forestay.
Ok. It looked like the block leads below. I was thinking that there are rigs that have a jib pendant leading below like that, but I'd be hard pressed to imagine a use on a cruising boat.
Does it really matter on an asymmetrical sail if you tack it behind the stay? Hoist with regular jib halyard rather than spin halyard...should fly free ok I'd think. That's how drifters are rigged, even when unhanked for ofc the wind.
Any chance to ask the PO how he rigged the sail?
If there is a cleat on centerline just aft of the stem fitting, it could be that the 4-5' long pennant on the gennaker gets led *thru* that block, then cleated off as an attachment point...?
CapnK, you could be right. I'll check that this weekend.
Captain Smollett, "Does it really matter on an asymmetrical sail if you tack it behind the stay?" I don't know. I'm interested in everyone's viewpoint. I had thought best to fly it in front of the forestay, but I could be wrong. The previous owner never once used either spinnaker apparently. I was amazed when I heard that, but, hey, I guess not everyone is a big sail junkie.
I would think that with the small distance 'tween that block (if pennant anchors there) and the forestay, and given the 4-5' length of the pennant, that the tack would be well clear of the forestay when flown. Likely clear of the bow pulpit as well, if you have one.
Leading the pennant to one side or the other of the forestay to affect how it flies might be a bit of 'strategery', too - using where it crosses the stay as a "stop" of sorts to help keep the tack in a couple feet closer when using the sail higher on the wind, and vice versa...
I've always flown an assymetric from in front of headstay and from a spinnaker halyard, if for no other reason than that lets you gybe the thing AROUND in front of the headstay. Need double sheets for that of course.
Other than that, I can't see it making a lot of difference. On Necessity I'd probably tack it aft of the headstay.
I have a North Sails G0 (that's gzero) on my CD28. It's an asymmetrical spinnaker in 1.5oz nylon.
It's flown free, on a short pendant, aft of the forestay so that double sheets are not needed.
My guess is that your sail is flown in the same manner and that your longer pendant is actually a cunningham of sorts to adjust the luff tension.
Thank you for your thoughts gentlemen. I'm dying to get this sail up and flying. I'll snoop around the foredeck again this weekend while I'm at the marina to put a tarp on the boat and will report back.
Quote from: gregorygraham on November 29, 2012, 04:18:44 PM
Captain,
The block in the photo is aft of the forestay attachment. I assume that block is there for a downhaul halyard for the jib (before the furler was added).
As the sail I'm talking about has no hanks and is flown in front of the forestay, I'm assuming I need to attach the tack ahead of the forestay.
I use my downhaul as a tack for my Asy Spinnaker, works like a champ and since its already run to the cockpit I can adjust it depending on the point of sail, tighter to the bow when close to beam and further out when more downwind.
An interesting technique Cruiser B2. I'll keep that in mind. Below is a photo of the foredeck I took this past weekend. I reckon the drifter tack could be run through the block and cleated off to one of the two deck cleats (or, as suggested by Cruiser B2, attached to a downhaul).
And yes, that is snow on the deck. Frightful sight, eh?
I ran my downhaul all the way back to cockpit with stanchion mounted fairleads. At the base of the stanchion closest to my primary winch i mounted a block to turn it into the cockpit. I only fly the asy spin about once a year so 99% of the time its a downhaul. at the bow I mounted a block to the stem head of the boat. It is actually inside of the bowrail. When I use the Asy spin I just make sure to route the line outside of the bowrail when I attach the tack. I can get you some pics if you can wait a few days-week....judging by the snow...you might have a couple of days anyway.
Some pics would be great Cruiser2B. And, yes, alas, I have many days to wait :(
I have just found an interesting Youtube video where what looks to be a regular spinnaker pole is used as a bowsprit. Here is the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_cCmc1y3Ms
The pole is lashed to the cleats on the foredeck. It seems to work in this video, although I'd be concerned the sprit would stay in place if the wind were stronger than in this video. In any event, looks interesting. Has anyone tried this?
I would NOT try that here on the Texas coast, except maybe in the dead of winter, right after a front.
Do it in our normal air and you'd have a VEE shaped pole, because the outboard end would bend up. NOTHING to counter act the upward force on it.
Does the rope lashing it to the deck not provide the counteracting force?
Talking about the upward force vector from the lashing forward. ALL the pull of the chute would act on that end. Best be a really beefy pole to stand that.
Do you need/want a bowsprit? What's the point?
With a large downwind sail, the center of effort is already well forward and it's not like adding a sprit for this purpose can be used to increase sail area.
Notice how the name of the youtube video is "How NOT to rig an asymmetrical spinnaker"?
{my emphasis}
Beware of overthinking attachment of your sail.
It's asymmetrical, so there is no NEED for it to fly forward of the stay. None. Use your existing headsail halyard.
You have a pendant and an attachment point - through the block to a cleat. Adjust the pendant to give the luff tension you want. You don't need/want a super tight luff on a running sail. You are not pointing with a gennaker.
Gype it like you would if it were just a big genoa.
No fuss, no muss. What could be easier?
This is a KISS site...and we often emphasize that simpler is better. Overcomplicating your sail attachments will very likely cause problems, probably at the worst possible time (increasing winds, single handing, whatever).
I stand embarrassed. No, I didn't notice the title was "How NOT to rig . . . . ". It did strike me as pretty unorthodox. Thanks Captain.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on December 10, 2012, 04:38:21 PM
This is a KISS site...and we often emphasize that simpler is better. Overcomplicating your sail attachments will very likely cause problems, probably at the worst possible time (increasing winds, single handing, whatever).
I thought this site was for sailing far in small boats, different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: Cruiser2B on December 10, 2012, 07:35:28 PM
I thought this site was for sailing far in small boats,
It is, but we've also always had a very decided KISS bent. It's both.
From time-to-time, we've had discussions about is one of these "more important" than the other.
Personally, i think they go hand in hand. I think, and this is just one point of view, that sailing far in a small boat almost demands the boat be much closer to KISS than otherwise. Especially if you clipping the margin of safety even further by sailing single/short handed.
If you look at the body of accomplishment of those who have sailed far in small boats, about 30-32 ft and under, in general, the success stories come from those that are more simply appointed.
Of course, "simple" means different things for different skippers.
I guess we could be "The people who think 'Hey advertisers, boat builders, and glossy publications - the guys who did it first back in the olden golden days didn't have ginormous boats or tons of conveniences, and *they* made it just fine over and over again, so we are gonna try and see past the hype because we think maybe they were onto something, and it didn't call for 45' LOA or a dishwasher in every hull, even though some of us have 45' LOA or a dishwasher, if that's what we want'... website".
But that's kinda hard to repeat that all the time... ;D
...and almost as if to prove the point above ::) ??? :P ;D - I've flown a spinnaker using a waaay undersized whisker pole (NOT a spin pole) and another time a common telescoping boathook, and it worked.
But - that wind, could barely be called wind. ;) If it was blowing 10kts, both would have been reduced to scrap. :)
Quote from: CapnK on December 10, 2012, 11:56:01 PM
...and almost as if to prove the point above ::) ??? :P ;D - I've flown a spinnaker using a waaay undersized whisker pole (NOT a spin pole) and another time a common telescoping boathook, and it worked.
But - that wind, could barely be called wind. ;) If it was blowing 10kts, both would have been reduced to scrap. :)
I've used a boothook, a rather cheap one at that, as a whisker pole. Light air, same story. Good expedient in the
right conditions.
Added just for completeness:
Boothooks and undersized poles for poling out a clew are a far different animal from than using a pole as an unstayed bow sprit and tacking the sail to the outboard end.
For a "pole," most of the force is compression. For a sprit with sail attached to the outboard end, if the end is "fixed" by strong enough lashing on the inboard end, ALL of the force is bending. Small tube sections are very good in compression, but pretty darn poor in bending.
Urp - I used them as sprits - and they were curv-vy, even in very light air... :D
Boathook as whisker pole on Godot...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EyfK2aAFYTg/TndV1TPl5LI/AAAAAAAAA-g/AtJtjdZBH6M/s400/2011-09-19_10-46-18_103.jpg)
Quote from: CapnK on December 11, 2012, 10:28:44 AM
Urp - I used them as sprits - and they were curv-vy, even in very light air... :D
Oops. My bad. Thought you talking about poling out.
I'm very curious why use of a sprit. What does that gain? Nothing for symmetrical, and I cannot figure an advantage for an asymm.
I can't see a use for it unless you have have weather helm you need to correct or there's just no way fly the asym inside the fore triangle, but here's a way to do it right:
http://www.pyacht.com/selden-bowsprit-kits.htm
Oh, just playing around in light air, trying weird stuff when bored... :)
That made me reflect, and then I remembered some relevant pictorial info - here's an undersized whisker pole being used as a spin pole of sorts on Pixie Dust back when Connie and I took her to P-cola for a shakedown, from my album in the sailFar Gallery. You can see it is undersized for a spin pole in any real wind, very obviously :), but in the puffs we were getting that AM, it helped keep the sail from collapsing in the 'tweentimes...
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/under_spinnaker.JPG)
Slocum used a large bamboo pole as a jib boom (aka extension to his bowsprit) to set a flying jib and I believe it was unstayed. Of course, his flying jib was probably a smaller sail, put away when the wind built up, lashed on well, and I'm sure it was a very beefy piece of bamboo.
Quote from: gregorygraham on December 04, 2012, 09:42:45 AM
Some pics would be great Cruiser2B. And, yes, alas, I have many days to wait :(
If you still want a few photos of my complicated 3/8line run thru some fairleads to one block downhaul/adjustable tack for my asy spinnaker rigging I will be headed to the boat on Sunday....as long as the weather holds out I will be going sailing too.
Yes to pics and yes I'm jealous!
Here is our 1.5oz nylon asymmetrical, tacked down with a 3 part purchase inside the forestay:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Jnx6yBdXJsA/ULL3atBva9I/AAAAAAAAbOg/lKFfGXABa2M/s726/C360_2012-11-25-17-35-16_org.jpg)
We were making 3.5 kts in a 5-10 kt breeze. This sail seems to work best in protected waters, as the larger waves/swells in light winds will cause it to billow around. Any thoughts on this problem? Lighter weight sheet line?