sailFar.net

So how do you guys ( non-gender ) handle hauling yourself or another person up the mast?

What about under way? ever had to deal with that?

Steps, ladders, hooks, chairs, redbull?

So far, I take the easy way out, and lower my mast!  :D

I use a climbing harness and ascenders, cleat off the halyards and go.
I used to just shimmy up using the halyards but now I'm old and fat.

I have these shoes, like pole climpers. They have a u-shape sole which goes around the mast. Ones weight and the non-slip covering keeping it in place.
Scary to use the first few times until I figured how to use them and tie them right. I had one come loose while I was halfway up in the begining. I also later picked up a chair, which I will use together with the climping shoes, and someone holding the halyard as a backup.
Still not the most pleasant task...

I saw someone at a sailboat expo, had a chair with which you could host yourself up. Looked cool, $imple, $afe,  and $ecure...

Lucky I guess...
Always hired someone for that task...I am getting to old for that kind of effort.  One time sailed over to Catalina had a problem with the jib so we just used the main and the iron genoa to get us back.  Then...you guessed it...hired someone to climb up there.  Well thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.

S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27 (Featured Boat Lats & Atts Oct. 05)

I ve got a buddy that I'm always doing stuff on his boat - SOooooo if I need someone to go up a mast I snag him and send him up - he only weighs 110lbs at the most vs my 230.  Most boats here we can have the mast down in a minute or two except for my Cal - which needs a pick crane or a bucket truck.

No dropping the mast on Triska. She is keel steped. My best shot would be to get someone lighter than myself to go up. Im getting to old for that stuff. I was thinking of building an electric winch type of system with remote control . I dont have that much need to visit the wind vane or lights up there. I have a redundant (extra) mast head light so if one burns out I switch on the other.

I purchased an ATN top climber a year ago and hope I never have to use it while under way.
Truth is I've yet to use it.

John

I have been up and out of airplanes from 18000 feet and there aint no way no how I m going up to the mast head.up to the spreaders I can handle thats it.

Zen,
Do you remember where you found those shoes? Sounds like the real deal for me, combined with a bosun's chair.
Larry Wilson
{with two masts that need climbing}

So far I've just hauled my wife up there :) She doesn't much like it, but she's much smaller than I am so it's a matter of physics.

We were going out with some friends on a perfect sailing day on our O'day 23, when we discovered that  the jib halyard was at the top of the mast. We were already under way so we decided to tie up to a mooring and I would climb the mast and retrieve the halyard.
I tied the main halyard to my thick belt at the back of my pants. The child and wife went below to spare having the child witness her father splatter on the deck. Then, with the halyard wrapped on the mast winch, shimmied, pulled up the mast. This sight seemed to be a magnet for all the passing boaters who then had to investigate this strange sight. Every time they came close their wake caused the boat to rock and I felt as though I was hanging on to a catapult. In the end I was able to retrieve the halyard, we enjoyed our perfect sailing day. But I will long remember the experience as the "perfect wedgie" :D

Oded Kishony ~~ __/) ~~

When I bought PD, I received a Bosuns chair for a boat warming gift.  I have a couple of friends that we help each other out as needed.  When I need to go up, they hoist me since I am the smallest.   Not crazy about the going up part, but once up there and you get focused on what you are doing, kind of cool.  I have always been at dock though.   I load up the pockets with Blaster, screw drivers, extra bulbs, pocket knife, etc.  You can bet that if you only have 1 of what you need, you will drop it..... we ran a bucket up and down to send me up things as needed that I forgot the first time up.
I need to figure out a way though to hoist myself, esp when I am on my trip.  Not always going to be willing people to haul you up.  Rock climbing equip may be the way to go.   Zen, I am afraid my legs would be shaking in those shoes.  :)
Looking forward to seeing ideas from others on hauling themselves up.

actually I have mast steps that go up to the spreaders.If indeed I need to get to the top I use a full body skydivers harness.and I am very sure not to hook the halyard up to the jetison handle.that same harness is used as a life line harness.its got all sorts of neat cumfy padding ----leg straps---chest straps---and all stainless hardware.

had to replace a halyard in mid-Atlantic on a 50' cat.  Very scary - had bigger fella down below controlling the winch. Got to be black&blue all down the contact areas...
Taught me 2 things - If it can wait - good : never trust an in-experienced person on the winch - weight doesnt count - idiot on the winch could kill you.
Now I have a special harness I clip round the mast and ease over the spreaders.
Went up a tri mast once - much worse than a cat.

Now I sail cats but my boat is a mono - much more gentle to climb - at any height...

John,

  You might wanna take that ATN Topclimber out of the package and rig it up. 

  I fell prey to the marketing, and bought one last month.  I really like the idea of being able to go aloft unassisted at will.

  I watched the video's, and read the reviews on ATN's website. (http://www.atninc.com/topclimber.html)  Well, I am very disappointed.

  I messed with the blasted thing for about 2 hours the other day, and succeeded in getting about 3 feet off the deck.  Much more effort then simply winching a person aloft.

  The issue (at least to me) was the angle of the dangle.  The climbing line tension is absolutely critical, you have to have it TIGHT or else you can not slide the releases up the line.  Then you have to have a slight angle to be able to climb, but you need it almost vertical to use the leg straps effectively.

  I used my 7/16"s main halyard, I have some 1/2" line on the way for a second attempt.  So far, I am not too pleased, or impressed with the ATN Topclimber.

Amorous mentioned ascenders (aka jumars), and there is a lower tech solution that is similar: prusik knots.

A prusik knot (http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm) is functionally similar to a rolling hitch, but the fall forms a loop.  You use two (one for each foot) or three (one for each foot and a third 'safety' one tied to your harness).  I've never used one to climb my mast, but I HAVE used them for rock climbing and crevass work on glaciers.

I've been thinking about adapting another technique from rock climbing: the use of etriers (http://www.canyoneering.com/gear/ties_frostknot.html).  One way you could use these is to tie a long one, clip it to a halyard, hoist and climb the ladder-like steps.  You could carry a few small bungees to tie to the mast as you go up to prevent it from swinging away from the mast as you climb I suppose.

Again, I've never used etriers to climb a mast, but I HAVE used them in rock/mountain climbing scenarios.  They are dirt easy to tie (webbing prefered, but regular line would work in a pinch).  In Aid rock climbing, we carried two - one for each leg and usually a four step and five step.  Sometimes, you would carry four (two short and two long).

As far as my current boat goes, it is WAY easier to drop the mast than climb it - even on the water (though perhaps not in a seaway - never tried that).

I use a Brion Toss bosun's chair and a couple of good friends. I usually go up on the spinnaker halyard and use the topping lift as a safety line.

I don't like it up there, but I have to see what is going on.

I agree with comment about needing good people on the winch(es). There are only a few people I trust even with the safety line.

When I am at the top and will be there a while I use yet another line tied off to whatever sturdy thing I can find.

Had another session with the ATN Topclimber this evening.....

  Used 1/2" double braid, worked a little bit better.  I made the spreaders, came back down and then went to the top.

  I am still not too impressed, this was WORK to get up and as much work to get back down.  THe main issue seems to be with the releases which want to twist 90 degrees as they load and unload.  This makes the first foot or so of each climb wasted effort, as you are just releasing your weight to untwist the release, and then you can only slide it a few inches at a time.  It took much longer, and was a bunch of work.

  My anchor light fitting is toast...  :(  I was hoping to wait to replace the fixture when I replaced the standing rigging, but now I will have to either struggle with the job aloft, or drop the mast to mount a new bracket and re-wire it...  ::)

  Anyway, I am still not a great fan of the ATN Topclimber, but I was able to climb the mast with it today.

I carry a maste mate. I am very pleased with it and feel much safer than swinging and dangling. I can also use it by myself. Dan

Just be careful with the ATN TopClimber.  There was an issue with the shackle being installed upside down, and unfastening itself IIRC.

I have a pair of climbing rope ascenders, and a climbers waist harness to use as a bosuns chair. Much like the ATN thing, I believe. It does allow one to climb the mast - at the dock. I tried it once offshore, and sincerely believe that I would have been beaten to death had I gotten more than 3 ft off the deck. :D It is a lot of work to go up, just as much or more to come down, and it is far from quick to use.

What about those mast climbing shoes mentioned earlier? Any specs, links, pics on those?

I think it was me about the shoes. I'll post a picture.
I tried them last week or so, but I could not use them on the new boat the mast is too wide. They did work perfect on the Ariel.

Zen-

That's what you get for having bigger boatitis.. :D

I'd like to see a photo of the shoes.  BTW, I don't have an issue with dropping the stick, even afloat.  I just have to knock out the bottom headstay clevis pin, and then down it can go...one hand, one line, one winch.

Dan

Re: those shoes - they give me an idea -

Why not a mast climbing system similar to bicycle shoes, where there is only a small socket mounted on the mast, and a shoe which is engineered to click in/out of the sockets? Put the clip on the inside of the shoe, at the arch of the foot. This would reduce weight aloft and windage, since the 'steps' would be built into the shoe itself...

Now, whoever decides to take my idea and develop then market it, all I ask for is attribution, and free sets of socket shoe mast climbing systems for my boat(s). :)

Not a bad idea...and if the sockets were properly designed, they'd snag halyards, lines and sails a lot less than most of the current mast step designs out now do.  Also, they'd probably be a good deal lighter than the current mast steps.

But instead of designing shoes for them, design something like a crampon, that would hook into them.  That way, they could be used on most shoes, and you wouldn't need a specific set of shoes for every person who might go up the mast, just a couple of pairs of the climbing adapters.

Quote from: CapnK on October 27, 2006, 09:12:37 AM
Re: those shoes - they give me an idea -

Why not a mast climbing system similar to bicycle shoes....

  I remember when a friend I used to ride with got his first pair.  It was scary watching him stop at an intersection and fall over...... cause he could not get the hang of 'clicking out'.  Now, this went from concern to just being absurd after a while, as he persisted in wearing the things, and falling over, nearly every ride.  He would go on and on about how much more efficient they were, while bleeding profusely......


  I am seeing some poor soul hanging from the mast, by their shoe......  :o I am thinking I understand why you are willing to let some one else develop and test the prototype...  ;D

No one said that CapnK had a death wish... bad enough that he lets wet crewdogz bunk with him.  ;)

The shoes - Masteps

(http://www.electronicfiles.net/files/3784/steps-2.gif)
(http://www.electronicfiles.net/files/3784/steps1.gif)

Made /was ? in Santa Rosa, CA

worked really well on my Ariel, it did get hairy at the spreaders though because of the cable and the reach. once past that it was all good.

Those are some seriously funny looking shoes... does Lady Zen allow you out in public wearing them??

those are BRILLIANT!, I can see some areas I would change about them, At the moment they seem like they would put too much of a focused load on the sidewall of the mast at both contact points.

did you climb with one foot always leading and just sliding up one after the other, or did you actually disengage the shoe that was not holding you in place in order to put the next step above it?

I have to say that based on the description I was expecting something rather different. I have seen the special shoe rig that linesmen that go up metal posts use. They are used in combination with a belt that has a loop that goes around the bacl of the pole, and shoes that are linked by a soft squiggy and very hi-traction strip that gets pressed around the fornt of the pole so that their feet end up on either side of it. They then dolphin their spines working the belt loop and the shoes and walk up and down the steel poles.

By the way, the major problem with the idea of the mast-setp cleat shoes is that most everyone alos used the mast steps as hand holds for hauling themselves up. If you are going to go with cleat type shoes you are also going to need some sort of wrist braces that also have cleat locks in them (you would not have them as gloves, poeple could not actually work on what they went up there to do)...this would make the system somewhat less attractive. A variation of the climbers belt and loop that I mentioned above may be an alternative to this.

Personally, I have a wiffe that is almost weightless and mostly willing...and who trusts the bosun's chair I built for her. If I had to go up the mast myself, I would probably rig an 800kg capacity electric cable winch I have to haul me up. It runs 12volt as well as mains and could be secured at the mast foot and then have the hook attached to a halyard (the plan would include needing to use a messenger line to get this started) via a knot, the halyard would then be pulled down in order to send up the cable. the winch would then reel in the cable which would pull me up on the halyard....Actually, if I secured the winch at the samson post in the bow, I would have some extra hoist space to take me all the way to the top of the mast, which sounds like a better option.

Do I want to put 160kg 11meters above the deck...not especially, I would make a superb pendulum.

Alex

Alex-

160 kg at the top of the mast would probably have serious adverse effects on the boat's stability. ;)

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on October 28, 2006, 05:59:35 AM
Alex-

160 kg at the top of the mast would probably have serious adverse effects on the boat's stability. ;)

Ever seen that movie WIND (starring Mathew Modine and Jennifer Grey)?  It has some great cinematography in general, but notably relevant to this thread is the shot in which a crewmember climbs the mast (during an AC race) to secure the head of the mainsail after the halyard breaks.  The camera angle is from the masthead with the boat doing some wicked rolling.

On another related note, I saw this pic in a Sig on TSBB a few months ago.

(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/normal_boat_shark.jpg)

Be careful going high; you might not like the view.   ;)

Quote from: Fortis on October 28, 2006, 03:32:50 AM


disengage the shoe that was not holding you in place in order to put the next step above it?

Foot over foot

The first time up it was  abit scary, shoe almost came off! :o
after I figured the right way of putting them on it was a piece of cake. Until the spreaders. I think there was a lot of betting going on in the marina whenever I used them  ;D

But Zen, we'd never bet against you...honest...well...maybe...if the payout was big enough...;)

Craig - sounds like your biking buddy needed to adjust his clips a little better.  ;D You have to twist your foot a little to get them to pop out, but you shouldn't be falling over all the time trying to do it. LOL!

Well, Zen, those don't look anything what I envisioned. :) Are the made of cast aluminum? That what it looks like... They also look as if they are circa-Brand-New-Ariels. ;D So by "foot over foot" you mean as if you were climbing a ladder? I agree that they look like they might point-load the mast wall, but an interesting concept and good idea!

As are the rubberized ones which Fortis mentions. I'd like to take a gander at those as well...

I will try and take some photos the next time I see the linesmen using them in my travels.

Alex.

I noticed on the tales of the Flecka in the Pacific they used mast steps.

Anyone else using these? Are they cost effective? They seem simple and somewhat safer. Easier on singlehanding passages or almost single handing...

Hmmm good points. I have seen the kind that fold, perhaps more costly and less sturdy.  ???

One thing you don't hear much in discussions that have the phrase "windage aloft" is the (negative) effect of almost ANYTHING in low wind conditions.  As others have mentioned on SailFar, and many have written in books, when cruising, it is vitally important to have good light-air performance from the boat.

In fluid dynamic terms, the biggest enemy to high efficiency extraction of energy from the wind is turbulence.  Turbulence is essentially tying up kinetic energy in vorticies - you use energy causing the air to 'spin' rather than generate lift on the sail.  Turbulence is the enemy of aircraft wing designers and it is the enemy of light-air sailors.  If you want to explore the details, check out the k-e (kappa-epsilon) model of turbulence.

The thing is, when the wind is light, even very, very small things cause a high percentage of energy bleed.  Putting ANYTHING on the mast that does not have to be there is lowering your light-air performance in general.  For example, if the wind is 6 kts, the airflow is effectively destroyed for up to FOUR TIMES the height of any obstacle the air must flow around*; a 2ft jerry can on deck is wiping out the bottom horizontal 8 ft or so of sail area.  Putting steps on the mast produce a similar result.

The mainsail is already at a 'disadvantage.'  A disproportionate amount of the drive upwind is from the first 1-2 FEET of sail; part of the reason the jib/genny provides more than its 'fair share' (in a sail area sense) of drive upwind is because of the mast-induced turbulence killing the air flow on that critical 1-2 feet of main.  Adding steps to the mast, even small ones (which can have a large cumulative effect), only exacerbate the problem.  The main becomes almost 'useless.'

When you add stuff like this, you end up throwing away effective sail area when you need it most.  In my mind, it is no wonder many cruisers, who often clutter up the decks and their masts with gadgets and trinkets and junk, must resort to the iron jib when the air gets light.  And running the engine costs money.

Food for thought on mast steps and clutter in general.

* from Lin and Larry Pardey, The Cost Conscious Cruiser, Chapter 11 - Keeping Her Moving: LIght Air Sailing, p 141.

My experience of the triangular steps is that they catch things, and on a masthead rig with a big 160-170% genny, they tear the poop out of the leach if the wind is iffy and the sail starts flogging.

I have actually been on the foredeck when someone much younger and fitter needed to go up the mast to the spreaders during a race. the 38 foot boat had the folding/locking mast steps (which by the way, are surprisingly heavy compared to the bent triangles...comes from being cast aluminium with steel hinge pin I guess). The poor kid came down exhausted because it actually takes work, effort and concentration to unfold the next step you are going to need, put your weight straight down (no loop on the end to compensate and keep your foot in like a stirup) and then fiddle around on the way down locking them individually back closed, so you are effectively pausing at every step, needing to secure yourself and free up a hand (alternate hands) to work the step. I have seen this guy monkey clib masts and even forestays to pretty near the top of the mast, and he was not as knackeed when he got back down as he was form using these steps. I myself have never had cause to use them, but thought I would pass on the anecdote.

Alex.

Good stuff.

I have always wanted them. I'm sure they would make maintenance and inspection easier. They would help when trying to see far distant things. They would be a great place to go for sunset. :)

But they do have these disadvantages.

Makes Zen's mast shoes sound even better. :D

Anyone else remember Waterworld, with Kevin Costner?
;D

The best way to go up the mast to conduct inspections is to sail around normally with these huge weights tied off up the mast. That way you can just grab the other end of the halyard, cut a knot off a railing (when it wwould be quicker to just undo it) and go flying up the mast at about 2.5G's as the huge weight comes falling down the mast (...theoretically unto the deckhouse below, though somehow it is a special weight made out of hollywoodium, and thus has no effect on sailing characteristics beyond rasiing you dramatically but reliably into the upper rigging of your boat!)


Alex.

In Yang, there is Yin. In Yin there is Yang...

In other words, everything is a trade off.   :-\

Happiness is finding the balance.  8)

or

as another wise man said


being happy with what you have  ;)

Quote from: Fortis on December 08, 2006, 11:11:48 AM
Anyone else remember Waterworld, with Kevin Costner?
;D

.... huge weights tied off up the mast. That way you can just grab the other end .....go flying up the mast at about 2.5G's as the huge weight comes falling down the mast .....reliably into the upper rigging of your boat!)


Alex.

  I should very much like to see pictures of this when you get it rigged up on your boat.  ;D

This is some pretty funny stuff. I wonder if there is room for a stand-up team of comics out there. :D :D :D :D :D :D ;D ;D

Still, climbing up there under way has to be quite an experience - at night - no moon. Like a nasal radiator landing on the deck of the bonny richard in yankee station at night after helping some jarheads out.

on the 'getting high' theme...the marina I'm at insists on a crane to step a mast.While stepping Jubilees...after attaching the rigging and going to undue the cranes strap,it became 'caught' at the mast head.we untied the other end from the cranes ball and I sat on the ball (legs wrapped around it) and held on with one hand as he lifted me to the mast head to undue the snarl. While not high as compared to most boats...it was still on the trailor so higher than normal and I know one thing for sure.....I AIN'T going up NO mast unless a life depends on it !!  That's not for me. I have bruises inside both thighs from the 'death grip' my legs had on the ball.  Nothing a dbl rum didn't cure after.

Alex-

I thought Hollywoodium was a hazardous material...and was strictly controlled.  If you get it setup, I'd love to see photos of it...especially, if you can get us video of you going up the mast.... BTW, try to avoid hitting the spreaders...your head might damage them. ;)

I once read a VERY funny story which very well could have ended in tragedy, about a single hander going up a mast at sea.

Seems he had this idea- he'd take a line and tie it to hhis halyard and attach his sea anchor to that. Put a trip line onto the sea anchor, then hook his bosuns chair to the halyard.

Got it all set up and climbed into the chair. dumped the sea anchor over board.

As the sea anchor filled and fell astern, up the mast he went, quite nicely.

But-

JUST before he reached the top, the trip line came taut- seems he had led that UNDER the stern pulpit, rather than OVER it. :o So it tripped the sea anchor and down he came-

ALMOST to the deck

at which point the SA refilled and back up the mast he went- almost to the top, at which point every thing repeated.

After about five trips up and down, being bashed against the spreaders, masts and what have you, he finally decided he was gonna have to jump out of the chair at the low point, or he'd be a yoyo forever. Which he did successfully, but not without some futher battering.

I think he decided that was NOT a great idea after that ;D

Thanks for this LOL CJ!!!  I needed it today.  I am packing instead of sailing on Pixie and attending the lighted boat parade tonight.   
I can just picture this guy shooting up and down his mast.  :D ;D :o
I have been trying to come up with a way that I can get up mine without locating someone to hoist me up AND without spending a bunch more green bills.  My money now is all for cruising and provisioning.  Gadget girl has drawn her line in the sand.  :)  Now I have to figure out how to get everything onto Pixie and she will still have some freeboard above the waterline.   That little job will have to be my focus AFTER the house closing on the 27th.   

THanks Charlie,

SHoot, that could have been me...  :o


  FWIW, I started reading that and thought... that sounds like a good enough idea.    :D   Might have tried something like that had I not read your post..

  Thanks man.   ;D


 

 

It could be apocryphal, but the version I heard had the single handed sailor decide to rig a line between the halyard and the rope gypsy on his electric windless. The windless had a remote control...not a wireless remote, but one with a cord long enough to do the job, he thought. He was 9/10 of the way up the mast in his luxurious powered bosun's chair when the cord jerked tight and pulled the remote out of his hand.

The good news is he did not fall back to the deck....the bad news is that he had no way to descend at all.

He apparently got tired of being a "big overweight courtesy flag" after a couple of hours and used his shirt as a mashift loop to assist in making what could laughably be called a "controlled" slide down to the deck. on either the forestay or one of the shrouds (cannot recall). Going down the mast was out of the question as the main was still up!

Anyone have any experience with "mastmate" flexible nylon ladder as a mast climbing method?

It would appear from their web site that someone tailing a safety line to a winch is still required and it isn't a good means to climb a mast singlehanded.

I've used the MastMate... you don't necessarily need to have a line led to a winch.

If you have a spare halyard, you can use a rock climbing ascender as a safety device.  Just fasten the bottom end of the spare halyard at the deck level after putting an ascender on it.  Then tie a safety line from your climbing harness to the ascender.

(http://images.backcountry.com/images/items/medium/PTZ0020.jpg)

I bought MastMate this year and I love it. I use a halyard clipped to a harness for safety. I've never used an ascender but I'll get one for next season.

The MastMate makes it very easy and quick to get up the mast to adjust something.

The line tied to a harness is fine, if you have someone on the deck to handle the line...but that often isn't the case.  I like the independence having an ascender allows me... Of course, the ascenders are a bit of a pain when you're descending, but that's okay in my book.  Better safe than splattered over the deck.

Though the MastMate looks like a good idea and that it would work fine, I see some (possible) drawbacks, especially for the singlehander - maybe y'all that have used it have some input?

My random thoughts:

• The flexible foot straps might get very uncomfortable after just a short while. I say 'might' because they look nice and wide, and maybe that'd help spread the weight stress on your feet. If I were using it, I would be sure to put lots of tension onto my harness/bosuns chair once in position to do so for work, so that it would be taking weight off my feet.
• Can't use it under sail, or at least when the main is up.
• I wonder how long it takes to hoist, and how hard is it to do so? Think in terms of doing so while at sea for repairs, etc...
• Fixed steps are always ready for use, making it easy and convenient to go aloft and check/inspect your rig, so you'll do it more often.

I'm putting these folding steps (pictured below, from defender.com) (http://"http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C118%7C319697%7C311636%7C312069&id=74836) onto my mast. At about US$17 each, it will work out cheaper to have this solution than to use MastMate. I've climbed masts well in excess of 50' tall that have these steps, and they seem to be a good compromise between convenience and weight/windage aloft. Though they might not be as secure as an enclosed step, I don't see that as much of a drawback. Because they don't have a surface that your safety strap could slide over/off of like the enclosed steps do, the safety strap will (most likely) catch on the steps if you were to fall, quite possibly saving you from bouncing off the deck (yowch! :) ).

Ascenders: Yes - have 'em, use 'em, and they work good as a backup, but it's hard work and a bit of a pain to use them as a means to ascend, and all but impossible to do so when the boat is moving; you pendulum just too much. I have gotten the bruises to prove it. ;)

(http://www.defender.com/images/612117.jpg)

CapnK-

I agree that you need to split the weight between the bosun's chair and the mast mate... but it can help a good deal.

You can use it under sail, with the main up, as long as you have a spare halyard to attach it to hoist it with.  Preferably, two spare halyards, as you will want one as a safety line.  It isn't as comfortable or safe to use, but you can tie the bottom end of the ladder to the deck rather than using the sail track.

Hoisting it isn't much of an issue, but it really depends on how well the mastmate fits your sailtrack.

Fixed steps add weight aloft, can weaken the mast if improperly installed, can snag halyards and lines, as well as cause corrosion problems.

This would be one of those moments when Mr Drifty and I are in agreement.

I have installed mast steps on boats, I have considered, designed and prototyped some alternative designs that I thought would overcome the problems that I saw with the commercialy built varieties....And my conclusion is that for small boats...no steps at all is the way I prefer to go.

Besides, travelling with a pet gorilla that can winch you up and down the mast in the bosun's chair on command is very practical. He also doubles as the security system.


Sasha

A good compromise I've installed on a few boats is two or three mast steps up at the top of the mast and two or three installed at the bottom of the mast. 

The ones at the top of the mast allow you to take some of the weight up off the bosun's chair when working at the masthead.  They also allow you to get up a bit higher than the mast top if necessary, and give you solid handholds when getting hoisted to the very top in a bosun's chair.

The ones at the base of the mast allow you to get up the lower part of the mast to help cover the sail, adjust the lazyjacks, look for coral heads, etc, without the need to go and rig a bosun's chair. A safety strap around the mast makes the lower steps fairly safe to use without a safety line run aloft.

Since I primarily sail singlehanded and also have an extensive climbing background, I've moved away from a bosun's chair to a climbing harness and a pair of Petzl Basic ascenders with etriers (webbing foot-ladders) attached to each.  I use a webbing runner from the harness to each ascender, and with feet in the etriers can pop up the mast in half the time that a gorilla could winch me up.  It's ideal when you don't have a (dependable) person to help on deck, and by running the ascenders on two different tied-off halyards (jib and spinnaker, for ex) you have built-in redundancy.

Several decades ago many practices in climbing were borrowed from the sailing world...  today we're starting to see good ideas, techniques and gear flowing the other way!

Bill-

That's basically what the ATN Top climber is....  The climbing harness I use is made by Petzl, as is the sailing harness I use.  :) Spinlock makes their deck harnesses in a joint venture with Petzl. :)

Disagreement time again! Woo-hoo!  ;D ;D ;D

Climbing a line stretched between deck and masthead while underway is *extremely* difficult, and that is actually an understatement, IMCO, because of my own personal, direct experience in trying it.

I have to ask - has anyone else ever actually attempted it, in any appreciable seaway?

I have - using a pair of Petzl ascenders, with a Black Diamond climbing harness - and you simply get battered, within feet of the deck. These were mere 2-3' roll-y seas. There is no way to both hang on to something solid (to keep from swinging) and climb at the same time. Traveling perhaps 6-8' vertically and back down again took me 20+ exhausting cursing swinging bruising minutes, so making it to the masthead and back down was well nigh impossible. I *might* have been able to do it, had you pointed a gun at me. Might. But even then, I doubt it. Perhaps a world-class gymnast might be able to do it, but even they would suffer many bodily indignities and take quite a while, I'd wager. :D

Think about it - 150+ pounds suspended on a line that on any of our boats will likely be in excess of 25' long - there is no way to get it taut enough to keep it from snapping you back and forth. Maybe if you use a large diameter line, and put it under truly enormous tension, maybe then it might prove stable enough. But even then, I doubt it.

Just go try it sometime. :)

Regarding corrosion at the steps - yes, it's certainly a possibility. Just as is corrosion from a number of other things likely bolted, screwed, or riveted to your spar. Having an easy way to go aloft frequently and check on said fittings (as well as the components and rig themselves) is to my mind a good trade-off.

One of the reasons I chose my boat is that the spar is wa-a-ay oversized (Ariels have the same mast and rigging that the Triton uses, at nearly double the displacement), and so there is a very large safety/strength factor built in.

Plus - If you are in conditions that are capable of snapping your well-attended spar, I think it will be more likely to fold at the spreaders, where the compressive forces are located *and* the holes in the spar wall are much larger.

Everythings a gamble, and a trade-off, eh? :)

Ideally, I would be in the type of physical shape where I could simply shinny up the mast, but, being on the backside of 4 decades now, that possibility will likely remain a remote fancy. :D

I've seen boats with ratlines to the spreaders, and steps beyond that. To me, that seems the ideal compromise, and I'll be testing it on my boat. Especially before putting steps all the way down to deck level.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 13, 2007, 04:17:58 PM
That's basically what the ATN Top climber is.... 

Similar, but not the same.  The topclimber has both feet on the same ascender, and the bosun's chair on the second.  In glacier travel a similar rig (harness instead of seat) is known as "Texas prussics" (although what connection Texas could have to glaciers totally escapes me).  When ascending with a topclimber you first raise your feet, then stand up in the loops and slide up the seat ascender, and continue alternating feet, stand, feet, stand, etc.

My system is based more on big wall climbing, with one foot in an etrier on each ascender.  I have two webbing loops (sewn slings) from the harness tie-in point to each ascender, but these stay pretty slack while I'm ascending.  With my rig I ascend left, right, left, right, like climbing a ladder.

The reason I prefer my system is that I waste very little energy in "body gyrations" and remain upright using my leg muscles.  With the Topclimber one involves more of the core "situp" muscles in the process...  check out this guy fron the Topclimber site...

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/CaptSail/Misc/top04.jpg)

My system is a bit more complex to rig & use safely with the harness instead of the seat, but certainly isn't rocket science.  Plus (if I didn't already own the gear) I can put my setup together brand new in a climbing shop for less than half the price of a Topclimber...   (like anything else sold for use on boats! ;))

As to the swinging around issue, well yes, it's not going to be easy but if you're going aloft in rolly conditions you probably have a good reason.  You can't rely on halyard tension to stop swinging, it has to be controlled laterally.  In conjunction with my setup described above,  I've used 2 webbing slings & carabiners clipped around the mast and a shroud (or around two shrouds if the main is set) when underway.  It minimizes the swinging and allows me to pass the spreaders by moving one sling above, then the other after the first is attached.  The traditional way (ratlines) is much easier and safer though...  All in all CapnK is right though, going aloft underway is definitely difficult, and I'd prefer not to do it underway unless absolutely necessary.

Bill -

My setup was basically what you describe, a "DIY" very similar to the TopClimber. Part of the difficulty was in ascending a one-line setup - you can only inchworm up or down so far per thrust, with both ascenders on one line (as is shown in the picture you posted). It takes a while, and is pretty tiring even at the dock.

It occurred to me that having a 2-line setup like you use would be much better, easier, and quicker to use. A line-per-ascender would allow farther travel of the ascender in either direction of travel, and use muscle groups better suited for climbing as well. But the experience I'd gotten of the swinging basically put me off of the whole climb-a-rope idea. The day I really need to get up the mast (and fast!), for some reason I just doubt that that day will happen to be sunny and flat calm...  ::) :D

Capt K....what's this stuff about 150lbs suspended in the air??? try 218 ;D

Franky -

Clearly you fall into the "+" category.  ;D :D ;)

 ;D ;D ;D

That's why LAURA goes up and *I* do the hauling

;D ;D ;D

Her 108 pounds is way easier to get aloft

Well, I just read today about this guy named Francis Joyon ascending his spar recently.


Actually, he went up it *twice*, while at sea.



Oh - it's a 105' tall spar.

:o



And he did this while setting a new singlehanded circumnavigation record - 57:13:34:06 - which included a new record for farthest day as well 614nm/675.4sm... :)

8)

Some people... ;)

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/auto/newsdesk/20080014102603ymnews.html

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ihqQ9BEZ1zPQzXKlU-kOfFLEaYNQ

And he did it on a boat with training hulls... :)

Ben, a member here and the owner / admin for SailingPensacola.com had a new take on going aloft;

(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/bfharris/Lift/IMG_1929.jpg)

Read about it here. (http://www.sailingpensacola.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=399&p=1120#p1120)

I'd like to see Ben pull that trick off on a mooring... or at anchor... :)

I'm quite surprised no one here has mentioned Hervey Garret Smith's Patent Mast Climber. Better known as a rope ladder. (See The Marline Spike Sailor, pg 49 in my copy.)

I made my first one three boats ago. It was easy, the mast head was only 20', but I made it of 3-strand and it was bouncy as all heck. For the last boat I made it in dacron double braid, and other than an unfortunate twist in the loop it was very satisfactory at 22'. The current ladder is 28', a touch longer than necessary, but again it works great.

Just attach it firmly to deck fittings or gooseneck, and hoist on a halyard. Tension more firmly than you would for a heavy wind. Use a harness and your preferred safety technique as you climb the ladder to the masthead (I admit I usually use a rolling hitch on about a 12" tether sliding up the halyard fall, which involves a bit of jigging at the spreaders.) If you're going to be there a while, by all means figure out how to get a bosun's chair up there because yes, your feet are going to get uncomfortable on the 'treads' of the ladder.

It usually takes me about 5-10 minutes to get up to the masthead on this ladder, a bit more getting back down carefully. Longer about the third time I'm coming down for some vital tool I set down between trip one and two (and *that* one was because I forgot the part I was going up there to install/replace to begin with.) It's usually at that point that I sort of regret doing the maintenance aloft without spotters/help. I've never used it in a sea way, but have done so at anchor and tied to the doc.

Hi all,

Okay, this is my first of many noob-questions I plan to ask over the next few months as I research sailboats in order to figure out what I should look for, avoid, aspire to, learn how to make, etc.

The question is... What are the pros and cons to "mast steps" (steps for climbing the mast, not where the mast is stepped)?

Here's an example:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/displayPhoto.jsp?&photo=5&boat_id=1957297&boatyr=1969&boatname=Alberg+30+%28Yanmar+FWC+Diesel%29&photo_revised_date=1218354926000&photo_name=Mast+Steps

I would *think* they'd more trouble than they're worth unless you like to climb your mast everyday. Wind noise, chances for lines getting caught or tangled, wind-resistance when sailing upwind, creating turbulence for the sail?

Greg

Since we just got dismasted and having to replace our rig we have been spending a lot of time looking at how the new rig is going to be. Short form is the new masts will be free standing.

One of the downsides of going with freestanding masts is we have to give up having mast steps which come in quite handy. We never had problems with them snagging lines or excess wind noise ( stays are much more likely to be the real noise makers in that regard) we had this sort http://foxyurl.com/Nqa but if I were building another stayed mast I'd go with a folding composite sort like this one http://www.maddogoutfitters.com/products/Mast_steps/Mast_steps.htm.

Hauling yourself up a mast and various other cunning plans that involve hardwear don't work as well and when you need t be able to free up a halyard or change a bulb mast steps make it a simple no brainer operation.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Bob,
   Alright I'm going to have to admit total ignorance here (yet plenty of curiosity).  Why does a freestanding mast necessitate giving up mast steps? 

Because the new rig is going to be balanced lug so the masts need to have nothing that will hang p the sails.

Bob

http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

Bob,

  I went ahead and merged this thread into the existing one.  You may want to go back and read the last few pages of discussion on the merits of mast steps and other means of going aloft.

Hope this helps,

Maybe this is a stupid question, but one that came up reviewing this thread.  Has anyone placed cleats on the shrouds on one side and built a rope ladder to the spreader? I am thinking about those cleats that attach over the wire but do not crimp (or weaken) it. That would leave mast steps only from the spreaders to the top, and would leave a ladder that is secure, but could come down and stow away easily.

Quote from: newt on January 12, 2010, 05:13:02 PM

Maybe this is a stupid question, but one that came up reviewing this thread.  Has anyone placed cleats on the shrouds on one side and built a rope ladder to the spreader? I am thinking about those cleats that attach over the wire but do not crimp (or weaken) it. That would leave mast steps only from the spreaders to the top, and would leave a ladder that is secure, but could come down and stow away easily.

That's similar to how Yves Gelinas' A-30 was set up on his solo circumnavigation.  He had ratlines on the lowers and mast steps the rest the way.

He made a helmet cam and in his movie, there is one scene in which he filmed while climbing to the masthead.

I read about a neat trick and tried it the last time I climbed the mast on my old boat. I was hanging a radar reflector from the triatic stay of my Dickerson ketch.

I filled two 5-gallon buckets with water and clipped the handles into my jib-halyard snapshackle. I used another shackle to attach that mess to the forestay.
I then winched the (full) buckets as far up the forestay as I could, until they were dangling 40 ft directly above my head.

I then used a pruisk knot to hold the halyard in place while I tied myself into it, using my rock climbing sit-in harness. Since I only weigh 170 lb, the water in the buckets offset almost half my weight, making it quite easy to shimmy up the mast!

Quote from: jmwoodring on January 20, 2010, 01:46:02 AM
I filled two 5-gallon buckets with water and clipped the handles into my jib-halyard snapshackle. I used another shackle to attach that mess to the forestay.
I then winched the (full) buckets as far up the forestay as I could, until they were dangling 40 ft directly above my head.

I then used a pruisk knot to hold the halyard in place while I tied myself into it, using my rock climbing sit-in harness. Since I only weigh 170 lb, the water in the buckets offset almost half my weight, making it quite easy to shimmy up the mast!

Reminds me of the Irish folk song "The Sick Note", lyrics below...   ;D
You might want to rethink this method a bit...

Dear Sir I write this note to you to tell you of my plight
For at the time of writing I am not a pretty sight
My body is all black and blue, my face a deathly grey
And I write this note to say why Paddy's not at work today.

Whilst working on the fourteenth floor,some bricks I had to clear
To throw them down from such a height was not a good idea
The foreman wasn't very pleased, the bloody awkward sod
He said I had to cart them down the ladders in my hod.

Now clearing all these bricks by hand, it was so very slow
So I hoisted up a barrel and secured the rope below
But in my haste to do the job, I was too blind to see
That a barrel full of building bricks was heavier than me.

And so when I untied the rope, the barrel fell like lead
And clinging tightly to the rope I started up instead
I shot up like a rocket till to my dismay I found
That half way up I met the bloody barrel coming down.

Well the barrel broke my shoulder, as to the ground it sped
And when I reached the top I banged the pulley with my head
I clung on tightly, numb with shock, from this almighty blow
And the barrel spilled out half the bricks, fourteen floors below.

Now when these bricks had fallen from the barrel to the floor
I then outweighed the barrel and so started down once more
Still clinging tightly to the rope, my body racked with pain
When half way down, I met the bloody barrel once again.

The force of this collision, half way up the office block
Caused multiple abrasions and a nasty state of shock
Still clinging tightly to the rope I fell towards the ground
And I landed on the broken bricks the barrel scattered round.

I lay there groaning on the ground I thought I'd passed the worst
But the barrel hit the pulley wheel, and then the bottom burst
A shower of bricks rained down on me, I hadn't got a hope
As I lay there bleeding on the ground, I let go the bloody rope.

The barrel then being heavier then started down once more
And landed right across me as I lay upon the floor
It broke three ribs, and my left arm, and I can only say
That I hope you'll understand why Paddy's not at work today.

The Corries recorded version of that song is hilarious. And honestly reading that, it did come to mind.

When it rains it pours, I can relate to Paddy thats why I bring the mast down not go up the mast

I don't know if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but I just went up the mast thrice using a harness with a prusik at waist level and a prusik with a long loop for my foot. I climbed the main halyard (tied off and winched tight), and used the jib halyard as a safety line. I can describe the experience in greater detail if anyone's interested. The pic below show the basic process.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk181/moor8302/up%20the%20mast/IMG_3809.jpg)
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk181/moor8302/up%20the%20mast/IMG_3810.jpg)
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk181/moor8302/up%20the%20mast/IMG_3811.jpg)

Went aloft twice today...

... just for the record, I still HATE my ATN Topclimber.

What a terrible bit of gear...  ::)

  Just a reminder in case anyone is considering gettingone.

I realize this is an old thread but...

I use a rope ladder that uses 6" rungs.  Used it in two ways so far.

Harness for both methods.

Replacing one of the halyards because the other came down.
I raise the ladder with the other halyard and have extra clips I slide into the mast track as it goes up to keep myself from swinging around like a pendulum.  The harness has a 1/2" short line that wraps around mast and clips to the harness, unclip and reclip once past spreaders so if I screw up the farthest I drop is the distnce from top to spreaders or spreaders to boom.  Ouch for both, but keeps a 40' drop out of the equation.  I also clip into each rung as I go up with two safety lines.  Clip top rung, unclip lower rung, then alternate.

Two halyards.
Almost same as above, but buddy or even weak person on winch keeping tension on the safety line. then they can loosen in stages as you climb down each step. 

I have yet to try using the second halyard alone with a line lock, such a repellers use, might try it in the tree in the backyard first, with a kid on the 911 speed dial.

Mast climbing in general is not my favorite, I seem to always be the one that gets Murphy's laws.

Yes, the kid is a necessary part the equation...

But might I suggest a slightly different approach? 

....  I normally offer him some kind of a bribe to set down the phone and go up the mast for me....

  ;D

Unfortunely, my kid's mom says "No!"