sailFar.net

In the thread on the Folkboat  (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=609.new#new)Frank offered the following good advise on outboards;

QuoteMany OB's with proper use go what seems like forever.

  I have a lil 2hp dingy engine I bought new in 1983...still starts 1st pull...ya can win bets with it. An OB requires minimal maintenance BUT you gotta use your head.

  Do NOT run them with the water pick-up out of the water...the lil impeller will pack it in VERY quickly that way. Even a 'bit' will usually start the premature wear. No water-no cooling-no engine.

  The carb MUST be kept clean. A 2stroke OB left sitting with old gas in the carb will build up a greenish 'varnish' residue in the main and pilot jets. The more it builds... the smaller the hole in these jets become...too small and the engine will run lean and eventually burn a hole in the top of the piston. REAL simple. run it out of gas before storing or loosen off the nut on the bottom of the float bowl to drain it....

   OB's used right, if not oversized will give good/long service and be economical at a fraction of the cost of a diesel and free up storage space too. Really depends how/where you intend to use your boat

_{(bold added)}

  Most weekends someone will show up at the marina with a boat that won't start.  many, if not most of the problems usually are related to contamination in the carburetors / fuel delivery system. Something that would be easily prevented by following Frank's advise above.
 

 

 

  2 stroke outboards like RPM's, and do not like to idle long.  The plugs will load up, as well as the exhaust ports.  I see overpowered sailboats alot, the Catalina 22' with the 9.9hp outboard is carrying about 2x the horsepower then it needs. 

  There is a calculator for horsepower, that can help you figure it out but the 5' rule works out pretty well; 1 hp for each 5 feet of LOA (round up).  My nearly 4 ton (loaded) Ariel moves well with my 6hp 2 stroke.  I can operate through the throttle range, but find there is a point slightly past half throttle where my hull speed is about 5.25knots, and my fuel last much longer then 'wide open'.

  When I delivered Ariel Spirit, I found that the 9.9hp Merc was too much for the boat.  It would squat when the throttle was turned, and the bow wake would just get bigger without gaining any speed over ground when the throttle was turned further.


   

Another problem I have come across often is with fuel.

  Old gas can cause quite a few problems with any motor, but especially four stroke motors.  Years ago I worked in a motorcycle shop.  The tech rep gave a short course on fuels.  Gasoline ought to be sold with an expiration date, since it breaks down so quickly.  The vented plastic tanks we keep it in aboard the boat, with rapid temperature changes and high levels of moisture is about the worst environment.

  I have a 13 gallon tank that came with the boat.  I removed it, and use a smaller tank unless I need to carry that much fuel. 

  2 stroke motors are vulnerable on a couple fronts.  The oil you mix with the gas breaks down as the fuel ages.   According to the Yamaha tech rep, gas mixed as recently as 4 months ago might already be losing it's ability to lubricate the engine.  Scary when the 100:1 mixes introduced to lessen environmental impact are already marginal in providing lubrication for your outboard. 

Yep, in the their tech manual, Johnson states clearly that fuel older than ONE MONTH is of suspect quality and should be discarded.  IMO, this poses a very real problem for sailors.

When keeping my boat our the Wateree Sailing Club, I would often buy about 3 gallon of gasoline a year; Even if I motored out of the cove or back (I sailed when I could, that is if there was ANY wind and I had the time), that 3 gallons lasted me a year.  I've been known to go out with less than a pint, and even with too little to start the engine (remember, it is a SAILBOAT FIRST :) ).

Now that I am using my boat in a coastal environment more and more, and I usually have my family with me, I leave the dock with a full tank - 6 gallons.  Last time to Winyah Bay I ended up motoring about 15 miles and used less than two gallons of fuel.  Technically, according to Johnson, my remaining 4 gallons is now spoiled.  I find myself wanting to go out and be a motorboat more just to use up the fuel without wasting it, and having an empty tank for the coast so I know while we are "out" the fuel is clean and fresh.

Of course, most of this would apply to an inboard gaoline engine (like th e A4), also, except I *think* with inboard tanks and fuel lines, maybe you don't absorb QUITE as much water and don't lose QUITE as much of the low boiling volatiles.

Also, the problem has gotten worse, with the addition of Ethanol in the place of MTBE.  Ethanol allows gasoline to absorb water...once the ethanol has absorbed enough water, it no longer serves as an octane booster, which is its primary function in modern gasollines. 

The older MTBE-based gasolines were good for up to sixty days, in a marine environment.  The newer ethanol-based gasolines have a much shorter lifespan.

I did not think the purpose of ethanol was as an octane booster, but rather to reduce NOx emissions in the exhaust.  Of course, as Larry Anderson of UC-Denver showed back in the early 90's, adding ethanol increases oxygenated radical pollutants like CHO and C2H5O, which are in some ways far worse to have in the breatable air.

In either case, I agree 100% that ethanol in the gasoline makes the water absorption problem worse.  Also, some older outboards use seals in the fuel system (including inside the carbs) are incompatible with ethanol.  I *think* modern rebuild kits for these older carbs include ethanol "friendly" components.

I avoid ethonal containing fuels when at all possible.

I am  not sure if ethanol is used as an octane booster, but you are correct that it is not a good fuel in a marine environment.

 The alcohol attacks the rubber in the fuel delivery system, and on a 2 stroke it can also affect the reed valve seats.  It does absorb moisture at a higher rate as well.

 I would not recommend running ethanol in any motor unless it was specifically mentioned in the owners manual.  .

Sorry, I hit reply while you were typing.  Seems like we had the same thing to say anyway....  ;D

The reason adding ethanol reduces NOx emissions is that it acts as a oxygenator for the fuel, since it has an -OH group, being an alcohol. 

Higher concentrations of ethanol, like E20 gasoline, often result in higher engine temperatures, and that leads to engine damage.

(Edit, Captain Smollett: corrected typo)

>I would not recommend running ethanol in any motor unless it was specifically mentioned in the owners manual.  .<

All the fuel lines on my week whacker completly dissolved due (I think) to ethanol in the fuel.

I add something called 'gas stabelizer' to the fuel on a roto tiller (8HP). Claims to prevent fuel breakdown in storage.  I wonder if this would help on a 4cycle outboard? How about on 2 cycle?

Oded

Quote from: Captain Smollett on August 21, 2006, 02:25:00 PM
I did not think the purpose of ethanol was as an octane booster, but rather to reduce NOx emissions in the exhaust.  Of course, as Larry Anderson of UC-Denver showed back in the early 90's, adding ethanol increases oxygenated radical pollutants like CHO and C2H5O, which are in some ways far worse to have in the breatable air.

In either case, I agree 100% that ethanol in the gasoline makes the water absorption problem worse.  Also, some older outboards use seals in the fuel system (including inside the carbs) are incompatible with ethanol.  I *think* modern rebuild kits for these older carbs include ethanol "friendly" components.

I avoid ethonal containing fuels when at all possible.

Actually, it's primary purpose is octane boosting, as ethanol has a native octane rating of 129.  MTBE, which is what ethanol is replacing, is also an octane booster, and both ethanol and MTBE were replacing the original octane booster used in gasoline, tetra-ethyl lead.   You can read a bit about ethanol's use here:  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/ethanol.html

We are both "right."   ;)

EPA Web Site "MTBE in Fuels" (http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/gas.htm)

Quote
Why is it used?

MTBE has been used in U.S. gasoline at low levels since 1979 to replace lead as an octane enhancer (helps prevent the engine from "knocking"). Since 1992, MTBE has been used at higher concentrations in some gasoline to fulfill the oxygenate requirements set by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. (A few cities, such as Denver, used oxygenates (MTBE) at higher concentrations during the wintertime in the late 1980's.)

And a similar comment applies to ethanol.  Contemporary consumer engines "like" fuel octanes in the low nineties, and adding more "octane booster" than is necessary to reduce knocking (cylinder detonation) is actually not good for the engine either.

Note that Denver is specifically mentioned in this EPA blurb.  I was at UC-Denver in 1993-1994 teaching chemistry at the same department as Larry Anderson when his research showed, very conclusively, that the presence of these oxygenated compounds in fuels causes some pollutants that are actually far worse than NOx emissions.  Many places have ethanol concentration caps to help keep these pollutants in check.

My contribution on outboard being used to drive sailboats is; Look into getting a yacht prop. Most outboards are fitted with props for planing hulls when bought. Retrofitting a yachtprop provides more torque and efficiency at pushing the heavier boats.

Having helped a frind convert his 8hp Johnson 2stroke on his E26, the difference before and after is amazing.
All that futile egg-beating struggle ceased and the boat moved with far more certainty against waves. Basically , it came much closer to feeling like my inboard with the big three bladed feathering prop. Lots of grunt when you need it, less noise and churning water that is already too riled to provide much push.


Alex.
P.S yachtprops are available for just about any outboard brand in any size over 4.5hp.

Quote from: Fortis on August 22, 2006, 04:20:36 AM
My contribution on outboard being used to drive sailboats is; Look into getting a yacht prop. Most outboards are fitted with props for planing hulls when bought. Retrofitting a yachtprop provides more torque and efficiency at pushing the heavier boats.

Having helped a frind convert his 8hp Johnson 2stroke on his E26, the difference before and after is amazing.
All that futile egg-beating struggle ceased and the boat moved with far more certainty against waves. Basically , it came much closer to feeling like my inboard with the big three bladed feathering prop. Lots of grunt when you need it, less noise and churning water that is already too riled to provide much push.


Alex.
P.S yachtprops are available for just about any outboard brand in any size over 4.5hp.

  Good post Alex,

I changed the prop on a Yamaha on a Grampian in my marina.  The lower pitched prop made it run much better in fwd, but it was a completely differnt boat to back.  it would have been worth the price fo rthe excahnge if only for the improvement in backing.

Yes, most props on outboards are designed for powerboats, and changing to a prop that is sized and pitched for your boat is a huge help.  I personally like the new composite props, since Buzzards Bay has some shallow areas, where you can ding a prop...and on a composite, you can replace individual blades.

Improved performance forward?  MUCH improved performance in reverse?

Okay, I am definitely interested.  Can anyone suggest a vendor to reprop my 1979 6 HP Johnson "Work Horse"?

Here, here!

I have the same beastie--just under the Evinrude moniker. Would be quite interested in this info.

Nick

I would recommend writing down the model number and contacting the Johnson / Evenrude dealer.  I would expect they can look it up and see if an alternative prop was offered.
You might have to remove your prop and take it in with you to verify that you do not already have the correct one installed.

 

Yamaha calls theirs the 'high thrust' prop, and there is also a 'high thrust' outboard offered with a different reduction in the lower unit.  Some manufactures might label theirs as 'speed props' or 'torque props' or maybe by the displacement/non-displacement.  I am sure the dealer will be able to give you more info (if a new prop for a 1979 motor is still available).


  The only problem we encountered was that the dealer was not willing to let us 'try it out' so it was a gamble.  The prop was ...($220?) so it was a bit of a risk but worth it in this case.

  Good luck!



OBTW, in case anyone does not already have the option installed many manufactures offer 'rectifer' charging as an add on for their outboards.  Most electric start motors will already have the charging options which is nothing more then a pick up that you bolt onto the powerhead next to the fly wheel.  This option was rarely standard on a pull start outboard, but can usually be added with very little effort.

  I had one on the Suzuki 8 that I traded to Bill, and have one on my Yahaha 6hp that was added on.  It is rated at 10 amp max output, and does a nice job of toping off the batteries when motoring.  I have gone without charging for as much as 8 days and maintained the batteries without running the motor much.  One thing to be careful of is that the rectifier is not very good at regulation, and it is a god idea to keep an eye on the voltage.  Mine has climbed as high as 18 v  :o when I have motored for a while, not so good for the electronics but easily prevented with a charge controller, or a watchful eye on the voltage.



 
 

Some of the smaller outboards would be well served by a composite prop, which are more efficient that the standard aluminum ones, and generally about the same price or a bit less, and safer for the lower unit in the case of a grounding or hitting a submerged object.   

The two primary manufacturers are Pirahna and ProPulse, both of which have a central hub and replaceable blades.  ProPulse makes an adjustable pitch prop, and Pirahna changes pitch via replacement blades.

I'm currently using a Pirahna on my outboard Honda 20 HP.  The 20 HP Honda four-stroke is also nice since it has a 12-amp alternator built-in.  (actually it may be a rectifier unit, rather than a full-fledged alternator).

Ive never been a fan of composite props...But then again with 20hp of inboard deisel, my choice of a feathering stainless prop of doom makes sense anyway.

There is a three bladed featering prop made with composite blades available (and much cheaper then ours)...but I got to play with it at the boat show and think..."no, thank you".

It was several days later that it occured to me that given our prop shaft sits 60cm or more above the bottom edge of the keel and rudder, any grounding that snaps off a prop blade is probably already giving me a very bad day.

On a dinghy that we run right up on the beach and sometimes use to "discover" unexpected sand bars at night...a composit prop blade as the very bottom-most part of a boat seems a bad idea.


I am prepared to be convinced otherwise...

Alex.

Fortis-

I wouldn't suggest or recommend a composite prop for an inboard diesel engine.  On an outboard, it isn't the bottom-most part, most outboard motors have a skeg at the bottom of the lower unit that is the lowest part of the outboard.  I would recommend that you get a "Macs River Runner" for your dinghy's outboard.

As I posted elsewhere, the most used outboard for our dinghy is the electric, which is a Mercury that comes with a nifty and guarded prop in what looks and feels like shiny black plastic, but has certainly been tough enough to cope with years of use and abuse.

The little johnson 2stroke outboard we have sees so little use that it is almost shamefull. thing is that I can get more run time out of the little tightly packed compact AGM battery we use to power the elctric then I can from the Johnson using the same volume of 2 stroke (and being able to just plug the battery in when we step on board and know that the solar panel or alternator will have it all charged up for us within a short while is kind of nice too). Power is about equivalent...give or take.

If we come to a reason to use the little 2stroke more then we will explore getting a river runner for it. Is that the long two bladed prop that is designed to cut through weeds and such?



Alex.

that 2 stroke o/b would make a nice lamp post fixture in a bar room setting

Alex-

A Mac's River Runner is a plate that attaches to the bottom of the outboard motor's skeg, and protects the prop from grounding.  It looks like this (the silver part at the bottom of the photo):

(http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Item/01/34/90/i013490sq02.jpg)

1997 6hp Evinrude Yachtwin motor. It has a "charging system" which puts out voltage. Is this safe to use to charge the battery? Or is it "unregulated" (not sure of the exact terminology here) and will it cook the battery?

The engine will be run all day for 3-4 days along the Okeechobee waterway, is it safe for the battery to be hooked up to the engine? It's NOT electric start. Just a 6hp 2-stroke that puts out voltage....

Help?   ???

Adam

I bet the replies will be all over the board, but here is how I use mine.

  The motor does not use a alternator, or even a generator to develop the voltage, it uses a pick up and a rectifier pack to charge the battery.  Some have a crude type of voltage regulator (zeener diode) that will kinda control the voltage.

  I have mine on a switch, and I keep an eye on the voltage as the motor is running.  I usually find that it will slowly rise and I shut it off when it is around 18v.  Where there is no load, it can get much higher but it only goes higher as the battery approaches being fully charged so it won't hurt the battery.  I switch mine off to protect the radio and depth sounder from damage.

  Depending on how much current I used the night before, the batteries are usually charged in 10-15 minutes and it has never taken more then an hour.

  FWIW

If it isn't regulated, then it might be wise to put a small charge controller inline with it.  The FlexCharge NC25A should do the trick and is really simple to hook up. :D

ahhhhhh...very interesting indeed.

Thanks for that!



Alex.

I've been using gas stabilizers for a number of years. I have a number of both 4 cycle and 2 cycle engines that I rely on around my property ( a 4cycle rototiller, 2 cycle chain saw etc) I also add a biocide to my diesel fuel. I worry about the condition of my diesel fuel since I only burned about 2 gal in the last 2 years. Should I pump out the tank? Or should I filter it? There is a service at my marina that pumps your fuel through a special fuel filter an a nominal cost, but does this address the problems of old fuel? I try to keep the diesel tank topped up to minimize condensation. I'm interested in what other folks are doing.

oded kishony

Oded-

I think that the gasoline-powered engines are going to have far more trouble than the diesel owners, especially as the percentage of ethanol creeps up.  The ethanol leaves gasoline far more vulnerable to water-absorbtion/degradation than diesel is.  Also, if the gasoline/ethanol blend absorbs enough water, the ethanol will essentially separate out from the gasoline and stop working as an octane booster.

Diesel is pretty stable, and as long as you can keep the algae that grows along the water/diesel interface in check you should probably be okay.

Dan

Good thread, great info everyone. :)

Quick linkage for a couple of the products mentioned (you may find more info/better prices by searching):

Flexcharge NC25A (company site, just for product info) (http://www.flexcharge.com/flexcharge_usa/products/nc25a/nc25a.htm) - and - US$115 here (retailer site). (http://www.absak.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/444)

Mac's River Runner - US$72-92 (http://www.sportsmansoutlet.com/propsaver.html)

Alex-

Anytime...

BTW, the Mac's River Runner is sized by the type of outboard you have. 

I'll share my experience with my outboard and old fuel.

A little background:

I use an old - late '70s vintage - Evinrude 6 HP on Prelude.  It was last serviced in August 2004.

Two years ago on our first trip to SF Bay, I seriously underestimated our fuel needs and only took 6 gallons of fuel.  It wasn't enough - not by a long shot.

Last year we carried 15 gallons, but, because conditions were very favorable, we used less than 3 gallons. 

Getting in and out of the marina during the year nearly used up 2 gallons.   So, when it was time to depart for the Bay this year we had about 5 gallons of fresh fuel and 10 gallons of year old stuff.

Conditions this year did not favor sailing back to the Delta, so we motored the entire 52 miles, enjoying the benefits of a flood tide for about 2/3s of the distance. 

I didn't use any stabilizers and noticed no ill effects during the trip.  I still have one full 5-gallon can of fuel that I'll use this year - I am hoping to get out of the marina more often.

I don't run the motor dry and, when I remember to use the deadman switch, the motor starts on the third pull.

I realize this is counter to conventional wisdom, but I guess there is always an exception to the rule.

Quote from: BobW on March 07, 2007, 06:44:48 PM

I realize this is counter to conventional wisdom, but I guess there is always an exception to the rule.

Hi Bob, thanks for the info.  Is your area really humid?

We live in a humid area and do notice fuel age problems (mostly water absorption).  As a matter of fact, when I rebuilt the carb on my ob, I wanted to start with fresh fuel, so I emptied my old gasoline into transluscent milk jugs.  It was about 1/5 water!!

Your comments just made me wonder if some of this "conventional wisdom" is environment dependent.

Capn Smollett-

I think you'll find the water-absorption related fuel problems just getting worse as the ethanol-mix gasolines become more and more common.  Not exactly a good thing for us that have gas-powered outboards as our auxiliary engines, since we often don't have to burn that much fuel during the season.. I still have most of the 12 gallons of gas I bought over last season left over.... 5+ gallons in my main tank, and 3 gallons in the reserve tank.

John, I wouldn't call the Delta "really humid," not like the Gulf Coast.  But it is a marine environment.  Reported humidities range from 35% to 95% (the site I use for that info is currently down).  Prelude lives in a slip and her fuel tank and extra fuel cans live in the cockpit lockers.

I don't know whether the "conventional wisdom" is environment dependent or not.  I guess we each have to understand what works for us.

I was reading the recent messages in the outboard thread, and it occurred to me that maybe it would be better not to run last seasons fuel in my outboard.  So, what do I do with it?

Can I pour the old gas with the two stroke oil mix in my truck?  Will it run ok?  Or do I need to find another option?

There is probably about 5 gallons of excess fuel, and my truck tank holds 15 so I'm thinking that things will dilute fairly well; but I really don't know.

Yes, you CAN run it in your truck.  I'd do it a little a time, maybe a gallon or so per full tank, but that's just me.

But...if it's okay to run in your truck, it is PROBABLY okay to run in your outboard.

What 'kills' ob fuel is the length of time it sits around - absorbing water and possibly evaporting volatiles.  In our cars, we usually burn through a tank of gasoline faster than that can happen.  So, it's not that the ob is necessarily more sensitve to these things than a car engine would be.

As an alternative, you could also dilute it for use in the ob.  Having made sure there is no 'standing' water (visible by separating out from the gasoline), just dilute it 2 or 3 to one with new fresh gasoline (plus oil mix).  The fuel I mentioned in that other post was WAY bad - not just a little bit, so it was unusable.  But, unless you can SEE water in the fuel, mixing it 2-3 with fresh mix should save you from having to throw it out.

My two cents....

I have never tried using pre-mixed fuel in my vehicle, but I know people who do just that.  They dilute it as you describe, and report no apparent ill effects.

I use a 3-gallon tank to run my outboard, and add oil to the tank when I add fuel to the tank.  I do not pre-mix my fuel in the extra cans, so maybe I could use my old fuel in my vehicle without worrying about the oil.

The other problem is that the new ethanol blend gasolines tend to have much more affinity to absorbing water.  Once they absorb enough water, the ethanol/water mix tends to separate out.  The remaining gasoline is very low octane, usually about 83 or so...since the ethanol was primarily being used as an octane booster.

Burning pre-mixed two-stroke fuel in a truck engine really won't hurt it, unless you have significant amounts of water in the gas... and in the case of ethanol blends, it will be pretty obvious if that has occurred.  On some older car engines, people use additives to help clean up the valve seats and such, and most of these additives are very similiar to the oil used in two-stroke engine fuel mixtures.

While doing the regular maintenance on my outboard I had an interesting 'discovery'.

  I have an 98 Yamaha 6hp 2 stroke (sold in 99).  It moves the boat well, and I have yet to figure out any valid reason to change it out... I had looked at the 4strokes but can not justify the cost for the slight benefit of potential fuel savings.

  Anyways, I opened the lower unit to change out the impeller (I have had the same one for 4 years) and found the woodruff key was half sheared off.  This is suprising because the key is much larger and thicker then I would expect would be required for this application.

  I had waited for months for the zink, so I was hesitant to go back to my local dealer for the part.

  I found; http://www.boats.net/ they have an excellent online ordering system that allows you to access the exploded parts diagrams online to see the exact part you want to order.

  I checked the prices on a couple of items and found they were lower then the dealer I have used locally (who is much More interested in doing business with the bigger motors then wasting their time with me).

Thanks for the heads up on that... always good to find another good vendor.

Update on these folks;

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 09, 2007, 10:39:53 AM.......I found; http://www.boats.net/ they have an excellent online ordering system that allows you to access the exploded parts diagrams online to see the exact part you want to order.

  I checked the prices on a couple of items and found they were lower then the dealer I have used locally (who is much More interested in doing business with the bigger motors then wasting their time with me).

  I got my parts in, they were shipped quickly.  The throttle on this motor takes two cables, they are listed as a 'throttle cable assembly' in the IPB.  The quantity needed in this IPB is listed as '1'.  I ordered the one assembly, and received only one of the cables I needed.

  So, when the order came in I called outboards.net and had a person on the phone withinn 30 seconds of making the call.  She looked at the situation with me, and is fed-ex'ing me the second cable.

  Pretty happy with their service.   ;D

I just picked up something that might be of interest to the majority of the people here, since most of the boats here are powered by outboards, rather than diesel inboards.

It is a very small Racor designed specifically for outboard motor type applications.  It will act as a fuel/water separator too.  Very cool.  It's about 4.25" high, to give you an idea of the size, and you can read about it at the bottom of this page here. (http://www.parker.com/racor/gas.html)  BTW, it is the middle one in the specs column, the other two are fuel filters but do not separate out water.

(http://www.parker.com/racor/images/gas_fltr08.gif)

I've been wanting to get a high thrust prop for a while, I finally did the research to find what I needed. Below are some links I turned up, to/about high thrust props for the Tohatsu/Merc/Nissan small 4 strokes. Maybe this'll save someone some time when they want to get one. :)

http://www.tohatsu.com/tech_info/prop.html  Tohatsu part #369W645120, specs: 7.9" diameter, 6" pitch.

http://www.nissanmarine.com/tech_talk/prop_chart.html Nissan uses the same numbers as Tohatsu.

http://www.usboatsupply.com/Mercury_Propellers.php

http://www.pws9.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=USBS&Product_Code=48-812951A+1

The last 2 links are for the aluminum Mercury Black Max High Thrust prop, 8 3/8" diameter, with a 6" pitch. The site in the last link has it for sale @ US$77.20.

Neat filter/separator, Dan - cool.

I decided to get one, given the recent problems I've read about with ethanol mix gasoline.  Also, having additional filtration between possibly bad fuel and my engine is never a bad thing IMHO. 

Do you know if they make a high-thrust prop for the Honda 20 HP.  I've been looking for one, but haven't been able to find one yet.

Thanks Kurt links.

I've been planning to get a High Thrust prop for Prelude's old 6 HP Evinrude.  I haven't done much research but I'll start with the links you posted.  As an alternative, I have an 8 HP Mercury Mariner I could - and have - used on Prelude.

Dan, thanks for the link on the filter/separator.  I picked up a fuel filter but haven't added it to the system yet.   I'll look into the filter/separator and perhaps will install one of those instead.  No sense in pushing my luck since I wrote about my using old fuel.

Anything that helps eliminate engine problems and reduces engine maintenance problems is a plus in my book.  Also, making the fuel delivery system on my boat more reliable is definitely a plus as well. 

While there is alot written about using filters and water separators for diesel inboard engines, there isn't really much said about them for auxiliarry outboard motors... 

Probably wouldn't hurt to add one to your dinghy's fuel system either.

When I researched removing the inboard and switching to an outboard on my 28' Tanzer, one of the goals was to get adequate performance from the smallest motor possible, this was for cost, weight and fuel efficiency reasons. 

A high thrust prop was one of the ways to get more thrust from less motor (in theory).  It was on my list of things I wanted when I ordered the motor.  I found out I could not buy a new motor with the thrust prop, but would have to order it separately and pay the additional amount.  The guy on the phone said, why don't you see if the regular prop works for you, you can always order it later.  So I did not order the thrust prop at the time. 

The standard prop seems to work fine and has gotten me out of harbors dead into the wind and 6' waves.  I'm not sure how a thrust prop would improve on this, maybe better efficiency, or better engine braking?

The critical issue with my outboard is not a lack of thrust, it is cavitation when coming down off of a wave, which limits how high I can set the throttle.  I have to run it at low rpms in wavy conditions so it doesn't over-rev coming off the wave peak.   I don't think a high thrust prop would help with this. 

If props are listed as 6", 7" 8" and 9", which is the high thrust prop?  I think it would be the 6", is this correct?

The idea with the high thrust prop is that you can get the outboard up to proper rpms and the prop will be matched to 4 to 6mph travel through the water, instead of 15mph that you might see with a runabout.

I like to run my 4 cycle at low rpms so I am not sure that a thrust prop is the best choice.  The standard prop moves the boat well and doesn't use much fuel. It works in flat water as well as wavy conditions.

we push Tehani's loaded 7000+ pounds with an 8 hp 4 stroke Yamaha, with a standard prop. 

We've got some 2700 miles behind us in the ICW using that motor. We usually run at hull speed or just under that, with the engine set at a high idle. Less rpm than at the "start" position.  Aginst tide, against current in locks, and against winds where we could not sail. That prop has done extremely well for us.

Running at a setting higher than the "start" position just squats the stern- she ain't running any faster.

We get about 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 hours of run time from a 3 gallon tank of gas, or average about 45 miles per 3 gallons.

Can't ask for much better than that.

The ONE thing a power prop MIGHT give us would be a better reverse. I have to admit with the stock prop, reverse isn't something spectacular. But then Tehani has a long full keel, so I don't think we'd do a lot better reversing with ANY power plant, including an inboard. She's just slow to back up and very slow to turn. Once you learn her ways, it can be done, but slowly.

I'd be afraid we'd lose the gas mileage if we went to a power prop, for little gain in performance.

I run a 6hp 4-cycle Tohatsu. I have never felt that I was underpowered.  I don't have to deal with tides and not much current, just river currents.  I also sail whenever I can, I will beat to wind rather than start up the motor.  Its open water and usually windy here.

Another theory:  thrust props are important for two stroke engines, where they need to run at a higher rpm to run well.  Thrust props are less important for four cycle engines which can run well at lower rpms.

I bought a Tohatsu 3.5 -4 stroke prior to leaving Panama City.  The distributer told me to ALWAYS lay it handle side down or oil will go in the carb.  The book said differently, so I followed the book and placed it on the little legs.  When I took it in for servicing, the very helpful guys put it in my trunk for me.  When I opened it, it was handle side down.  THEN... when getting it off the back of my boat and onto the dinghy and back onto the boat, she got rolled a little in mid air and in the dinghy.  That did it, my always start on second pull Tink pusher was not willing to start or even sputter.  2 nice guys stuck in the same anchorage as me due to weather spent about 2 hours with me troubleshooting it. They were headed north to KY. Tohatsu was great!!  Gave me a dealer here in St. Pete they like, told them to put it under warranty for me and bingo!!  I had my outboard back and running by Monday evening.  Thank goodness.  I am ready to move further south!!  4-strokes are very finicky about which side you place them on.. and prefer to be straight up.   If oil gets into the gas and or carb, they will not start for nothing.  Lesson learned with 4 stroke, if this happens again, take out spark plug, open screw on bottom of carb. pull out choke and pull start over and over until all runs clear.   Thank you Tohatsu for great service!

Thanks connie... good to know.. I'm planning on getting a 2 or 3.5 HP four-stroke for the dinghy at some point this year.

I have a 8'9" air floor Mercury Dink and it pushes it pretty well.  Difficult to get on a plane, so added an extension out of PVC to the arm  and it does much better.  If I get in the bow for even a minute and get it on the plane, she will scoot.  I had to stick with 3.5 due to wt- it is 35#, but if you can move up to 4-5hp, it should plane much better.
I now have a motor sling and lift it on and off Pixie with a hoist.   SOOOOO much easier and the engine stays level.  I highly recommend the motor sling.  Makes controlling the relocation of the outboard so much easier. 

I've heard it is unwise to lay a 4-cycle outboard on its side, particularly the "wrong" side.  This causes oil to flow into the wrong places and damages the motor.  In a chat discussion the other night, there was some debate whether this is a real problem or not.

Since I don't have a 4-cycle motor, I need not worry about that particular issue.  But what I didn't ask is whether that same caution applies to a 2-cycle outboard.

The reason I ask is I am rebuilding my outboard well and trying to figure out how to raise the motor out of the water while sailing.  One option - admittedly not the best one - is to manually lift the motor out of the well and stow it on its side in the lazarette.  I would test this method while working out the details ofraising the motor mechanically.

Can I do this without damaging the motor?

Thanks.

BobW-

Doesn't apply to two-stroke engines AFAIK, since two-stroke engines don't have and oil sump, like a four-stroke engine does.  The oil used for lubricating a two-stroke is in the fuel, while the oil used to lubricate a four-stroke motor comes up from the sump, and if the outboard is laid down on the wrong side, the oil can pour out and get into parts of the engine where it will cause problems, like the carburetor.

Certainly Bob. The problem with the 4 stroke motors is the oil sump. The 2 stroke has no sump, no oil inside the case, except when running, since it's mixed with the gas. So unless it runs out of the carb bowl, there's nothing to leak over.

And it WILL screw up a 4 stroke.  We both know someone who tilted a small 4 stroke to far over while it was on a transom and almost ruined the motor trying to start it with the oil in the cylinders. Remember T.P.?

Thanks.

That's good to know (should have been able to figure that out on my own!).

Bob- What you heard about 4 strokes is absolutely true.  I was living proof of that little error a week ago.  Now that I am fully educated and have a motor harness with a hoist on board, this hopefully will not be a problem in the future.   Finicky little things when it comes to that.  Can you imagine sleeping on one side only for ever???  ???

Is there a way to measure/determine the pitch of a propeller?

I pulled the prop off my 6 HP Evinrude to see what the diameter/pitch are, but the numbers are nearly gone.  I can read 8.5 x ... but the pitch is illegible.  (What I need is some of the acid they use on "CSI" to recover serial numbers ground off handguns.  :) ) 

I may have to take the prop to the shop and let them match it.

I've been trying to track down a high-thrust prop (9 1/4 x 6 1/2).  On Kurt's suggestion, I contacted onlineoutboards, but they don't carry props for Evinrudes.  I went to the local shop, and they discovered the high-thrust prop for my motor is no longer available.  They referred me to Seaway Marine (in Seattle) who specialize in old out of production parts.  They don't have any in on hand but referred me to 4 other possible sources.  Email inquiries to those 4 have gone unanswered.

But if the prop I have is 8.5 x something, I may not get $80+ worth of improved performance.  However, I probably need to replace this prop soon as it is showing some pitting.

So, is there a way to determine the pitch?

Thanks.

If your motor is long shaft/sail drive, it should be the high thrust prop.

I cannot advise on if it is worth the additional cost but a replacement prop and sheer pin would be. I do carry a spair prop.

Well, I agree I should have the high thrust prop.  But I am having a hard time finding one to fit my Evinrude.  The prop is no longer in production so it cannot be ordered through "normal" channels.  As I noted above, none of the four old/used/out-of-production sources has responded to email inquiries.  A fifth source - with the prop listed on their website - responded with an apology that they no longer have it in stock (and haven't updated the website).

I also agree I need a spare prop and shear pin.  I guess I'll order the next best prop that is available.

Do you know what the specifications of the "high-thrust" prop were?  It might be available from one of the aftermarket composite prop manufacturers.

Dan - 

The prop I'm looking for is OMC Part No. 392183, 9 1/4" x 6 1/2", for an early 80's Evinrude 6 HP outboard.

Two local dealers told me it has been discontinued. 

Sea-Way Marine in Seattle specializes in old outboard parts.  They don't have the prop, but referred me to:

P.Y. MARINE LTD (PORT ALBERNI  BC V9Y4H6)  (
SCHERMERHORN HARBOR LLC  (HAMMOND  NY 13646) 
CROCKER'S BOAT YARD INC (NEW LONDON  CT 06320-4971)
EAST HAMPTON MARINA (EAST HAMPTON  NY 11937-2069) 

None of them have responded to my emails.

I did find the prop listed on Advantage Propeller Discount Center's website.  They did reply to my inquiry (tried to order it), telling me it is a discontinued item and they are out of stock.

I have looked at every website I could find searching for just about every combination of "OMC Parts," "Propellers," "Evinrude," "High-Thrust," "Discontinued," "Used," and anything else I could think of.  Still haven't found it.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Thanks.

Decided on a slight redirection.  I have a Mercury Mariner 8 HP long shaft motor.  I'll use that instead of the Evinrude.  I ordered a 9 3/4 x 5 1/2 prop from Advantage Propeller Discount today.

8 HP is more than I need, but the Mariner is in better condition than the Evinrude, has the long shaft, and weighs about the same as the Evinrude.

BobW-

I was going to recommend that you look at a composite prop, like Pirahna Propellors (http://www.piranha.com/propellers.php).   I know they make a 9.5" diameter x 5" pitch, and a 9.5" d x 7" p prop blade.  I have the 9.5 x 7 and will be trying it later this month, when I put my boat back in the water.  :D 

I've been using a 10" x 9" blade set, but think I might be able to get a couple more knots, with less slip if I go down to the 9.5" x 7 prop.   If that works, I might even order a set of the 9.5" x 5 blades to see if they improve things even more.

Dan

The new prop arrived today!  I'll take it out to the boat on Saturday and put it on the Mariner.

Dan -

I checked out the Pirahna Propellers site.  Interesting concept.  The results of a search for a prop for my Evinrude came up empty.  They have a prop for the Mariner, but the cost for all the components came to better than $140.   

Odd.  that was about the price I paid for the entire propulsion kit—which consists of a hub, six blades (two full sets) and a prop wrench. 

The $140 included a hub, 3 blades, and a tool.  Plus shipping.

I paid $68 for the prop from Advantage Propeller Discount (plu $7.50  for shipping).  I'll probably order another one to have as a spare in the not-too-distant future (I lost the prop off the Mariner a couple of years ago, so I don't have the old one as a spare).

OBTW,

  Make sure your spares kit includes an impeller..... I had one for my main motor, but somehow overlooked adding one for the dingy motor... 

  Just a thought.

Hi,
I am new to this forum. I just followed the 'outboard motors' thread, but didn't want to hijack it. We are thinking about removing inboard in our 31', 4.2 ton Hallberg-Rassy Monsun and replace it with outboard (currently thinking about Tohatsu 2-stroke 8HP). We never used outboard to push our boat, so looking for advise. We don't motor much (mostly in/out of berth in tight marina's), other than that we ran the inboard mostly to keep it in shape.
Our biggest concern are waves. Are there any tricks to get the most out of the outboard even in bad conditions? Anything else we should think about?
Many thanks

I think a 31 footer of that weight is almost totally incompatible with safe and comfortable outboard motoring. There are a few (usually home built form plans) boat builders that use outboards to power boats in this range, but like Bolger (Ugliest boats in the known universe!...And it takes a lot to win that prize away from Roberts) they use a special well or engine platform/engine room configuration in the designa dnc onstruction stage to get the motor in more or less the right place.

Then your problems are all about revs and torque.

Basically, I think you are proposing a bad idea.

This is me, who has specialised in trying some really insane boat building ideas....It is not exactly like I am closed minded to the "out there" in how to do boat stuff....And I think that staying with the low rev/high torque, safe fuel (and if you go over to gasoline you will need to more then triple your tankage for the same range in fuel, a little more in the two stroke), and propellor in the best possible place option is the way to go.

I have some various wild idea on how to dispense with inboard diesels as they are today and how to optimise boat space and efficiency...but at the minute they all cost more then doing it the standard way, and none of them involve slinging an outboard off a bracket on the transom.


Alex.

Many thanks. We really intend to motor only in ports and marinas with the outboard, so we wouldn't definitely take much petrol anyway. We are mostly using the boat as if she was engineless, but we are naturally cautious to take out the engine out.

Well there are several schools of thought on this.

I had a friend in Florida who powered his 39 foot steel Roberts design with an outboard on the stern. He had a center cockpit and it was a royal PITA to use, but it moved the boat ok. He eventually decided to install a small diesel, just because getting TOO the OB was such a pain, not because it didn't work

I had a friend in Florida who powered his 36 foot Piver trimaran for 6 years with a Honda 10 HP in a well in the cockpit, well offset to starboard. He made more than one or two multi year cruises in the Bahamas with that set up and was happy with it.

I have a friend on the east coast who is seriously contemplating removing the inboard from an Alberg 30 and building a well in the lazerette for an OB.

I can't recall his name but the guy who makes the Cape Horn self steering gear used an outboard on a side mounted mount on his Alberg 30,  Jean Du Sud,  during his circumnav and still uses the same set up today.

James Baldwin powers Atom, his Triton, with a 3.5 HP Tohatsu on a stern bracket. He and Atom have been twice around and he often just doesn't mount the engine.

And of course Lin and Larry Pardey sail a heavy 30 footer with no engine at all and have done 2 circuits of the world now, engineless.

We power our boat with an OB in a well I like having it in the well because it's easily operated from the cockpit and the prop is far enough forward that we have little problem with it ventilating. We've run it in six foot seas down wind with no problems. Of course my boat is only 2.5 tons. Our engine is an 8 HP four stroke and fuel consumption is very low. 1/3 what we used with a comparable sized 2 stroke. I'd think a 4 stroke would be the only way to go, but they ARE heavy.


Having said all that, that is a big boat to be running with an OB. If you are really well versed in sailing basically engineless, it should work. Although I'd take a close look at where the thing would be mounted and how you'll be accessing it. starting, shifting running the throttle, etc. Some engines make it easy- Yamaha for example has remote tillers you can obtain to move the one off the engine into the cockpit. But that's an area you'd have to really look hard at.

And I don't think that one engine or the other or even having one at all is a matter of "safety". Depending on an engine isn't being safe- it WILL fail you, often when you need it most. So I'd say analyze your own sailing and make the choice based on what YOU do and how you sail your boat. If you learn to SAIL the boat and exhibit good seamanship in going into places, you should do ok.

It IS a big decision I know, but boy- the storage space you'd gain doing it would REALLY change your cruising abilities :D

Welcome to sailfar.net.

A Monsun is a bit on the large side for using an OB as an auxiliary engine.  There are two problems you would have.  The first is mounting the OB in a location where it is low enough to properly work, since the Monsun doesn't have an outboard well or mount of any sort.  The second is getting a prop that is pitched properly a boat of your mass and displacement. 

If you do decide to go this route, I would highly recommend you get a high-thrust version of the Yamaha 9.9 HP outboard, which was essentially designed for use on sailboats and has an extra long shaft as well as a slightly different prop and gearing than most other outboards. You would definitely want a remote throttle and transmission setup for your boat, since reaching down to get the tiller of an outboard mounted off the stern is not feasible or safe.

My boat is outboard powered, but weighs considerably less than yours, massing about 4000 lbs, and was designed for an outboard.  It also has a 20 HP outboard.

Another problem I see with you using a small outboard for powering your boat is that the outboard would be sadly overmatched in any sort of heavy wind or current, and probably suffer in any sort of chop or rough seas. 

Quote from: klubko on December 12, 2007, 11:13:26 PM
Hi,
I am new to this forum. I just followed the 'outboard motors' thread, but didn't want to hijack it. We are thinking about removing inboard in our 31', 4.2 ton Hallberg-Rassy Monsun and replace it with outboard (currently thinking about Tohatsu 2-stroke 8HP). We never used outboard to push our boat, so looking for advise. We don't motor much (mostly in/out of berth in tight marina's), other than that we ran the inboard mostly to keep it in shape.
Our biggest concern are waves. Are there any tricks to get the most out of the outboard even in bad conditions? Anything else we should think about?
Many thanks

If he had a tri or cat, mya dvice would have been different. The characteristics for pushing a heavy mono displacement hull as opposed to a multi-hull by outboard engine is really markedly different. A point frequently driven home to me by the nearly totallly different engine characteristics between two coast guard boats I work with. Both are fitted with twin 200HP Yamahas with hi torque props (helps with the towing). One boat is a displacement hull with retractabe planning plates, the other is a tunnel hull (essentially a catamaran). Identical engine rigs, comparable ages of hull, both motor setups less then a year old.
TOTALLY, FREAKILY, DIFFERENT HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS in terms of how the hulls responds to their engines and where your power bands and "rough" bands are.

On a different note, While I have a great deal of respect for the gentleman with Atom...I do not think his ways are for everyone. His approach and philosophy of cruising is very idiosyncratic. It works for him, and I admire that....But ye gods and little chompy fishes, I would not do it the same way.


The notion that engines will fail anyway, so best to treat them with bland disregard as if they are of no practical use beyond being an oar to get your in and out of the pen is a very OLD way of looking at things. It is all lubberly, but it is nowadays very obsolete. Think of your engine like a parachute, maybe one that you did not pack yourself. When something really bad DOES happen, sure it may not open, but having it is way better then not having it at all...and you certainly would spend a moment of fall-time wishing that you had either taken the time to pack it yourself or hoping that whoever did believed in it instead of being a fatalist.

Sure engines fail, so does everything else, but if you treat the engine like the same valuable peice of gear that could be a major player in getting you out of trouble and keeping you and your boat alive, then in a situation where all else would be lost...it just MIGHT have a chance of doing that.

One of the best books I can recommend for the old-timey sailing crowd on this is Smeeton's Once Is Enough, Complete with Neville Shute's introduction.


Alex

Quote from Alex-

"Sure engines fail, so does everything else, but if you treat the engine like the same valuable peice of gear that could be a major player in getting you out of trouble and keeping you and your boat alive, then in a situation where all else would be lost...it just MIGHT have a chance of doing that."

Of course.

But I see way too many people who are motor sailors, rather than sailors. They rely on that engine to the exclusion of knowing how to SAIL THE BOAT. And lets face it- on a sailing vessel those sails ARE your primary "engine" the other one is an auxiliary and should be USED as an auxiliary NOT the last ditch safety device- that's your sails.

I see them motoring, with sails all nicely covered,  in areas where if the engine did stop, they'd be screwed before they could do a blasted thing. In and out of inlets with rocks on both sides, around bridges- You have seen them too.

We use our engine quite a bit, regretfully. On two trips to Florida via ICW, we found we HAD to use it- cannot sail in the ICW in eastern Texas and western Louisiana. Plus getting out of our marina entails a 4 mile power straight upwind until you get to wide enough waters to safely sail. But I've always got the sails ready to go if I have to use them. Same as always having an anchor ready to let go instantly. Hedging your bets is seamanly.

And I wasn't trying to talk him INTO doing away with the engine- just giving him something more to think about.

Well, I'll say it....

Switching to an outboard would be foolhardy--unless the diesel is shot and there is no budget for a re-power

If the primary intention is to use the engine for docking situations, or other short-term situations, have you considered an electric motor?

Here is a very interesting thread (http://renegade-cruisers.net/bb/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=7106) of a fellow who did it (been a while since he's updated any info, however). He removed a venerable Perkins 4-108, replaced it with pancake electric motors. Neat stuff, and great food for thought.

Taking everything into consideration, if the above use is what you intend, then electric might be the way to go...

Oh, and BTW -

Welcome aboard! :D

CapnK has a very good suggestion.  It may be well worth considering, especially if you're planning on having a significant size house bank to begin with.  Recharging the batteries will be a challenge, but that could be done passively using a combination of wind, solar and water generation.

Quote from: CapnK on December 13, 2007, 07:33:29 PM
If the primary intention is to use the engine for docking situations, or other short-term situations, have you considered an electric motor?

Here is a very interesting thread (http://renegade-cruisers.net/bb/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=7106) of a fellow who did it (been a while since he's updated any info, however). He removed a venerable Perkins 4-108, replaced it with pancake electric motors. Neat stuff, and great food for thought.

Taking everything into consideration, if the above use is what you intend, then electric might be the way to go...

CharlieJ, have you been talking to me son?

We needed to move a sailboat from one berth of the marina to another so a barge could get in and do piling maintenance. I had Miles (2yo) with me, so I sat him down in the cockpit and went to fire up the engine so we could put put across to the temp mooring. Miles knocked my hand away from the starter button and with a very serious expression on his face pointed to the mast and said "SAILBOAT!"

2 years old, and already a sail snob!

But yesterday he came fishing and crusing with us on an 80year old couta boat. He steered us out of the creek with a very good hand on the tiller (while standing on the bench!) and was a very deft hand all round (except the putt putt of the diesel made him sleepy, after a while)  Once he had his nap, it was time for a spot of fishing. three trolling lures hit the water, Miles's was the one that actually caught a fish...that was about an inch longer then he is tall!
The only crying of the day was that he was not allowed to use the knife for dispatching the fish (HIS fish!). he surervised as I filleted and cooked his catch for dinner and was very proud to be able to "feed mummy and daddy" with his skills.

I'm a very proud father....And have wandered off topic.

(http://home.armourarchive.org/members/sasha/jester/apug/PC130260s.jpg)


Alex.

lol- That's simply great- and don't worry about being off topic. Things like that fit ANYWHERE. And he's obviously a very intelligent young man.

My youngest could steer a compass course when he was two. He HAD to use the compass because he wasn't tall enough to see over the cabin. ;D

He's now 44 and has a 10 year old- enjoy your youngster while you can- before you turn around twice he'll be graduating high school.

Seriously now and on topic-

I've been rereading the Pardey's book called "Self Sufficient Sailor" the last few nights- just finished a reread of Roth's "After 50,000 Miles".

In there there are a few small paragraphs about about engineless sailing that really caught my eye.

The first was about the late Peter Pye who sailed and old fashioned boat named Moonraker. He was on a dock at the San Diego Yacht club and was asked to move his boat to another dock across the harbor. Rather than power over, he and his wife made sail and sailed it over. When asked why he didn't just motor over he replied-

"Motoring on the ocean is simple, But if I don't practice sailing in close quarters, I might not be able to when I need to."

The other story was a story written by Jane DeRidder ( of Magic Dragon) for Pacific Yachting about voyaging in the Tuamotus

Nine yachts left Victoria that season, four of which were engineless. Four of the nine yachts were wrecked in the Tuamotus. Of the five that safely made the journey, four of them were the engineless yachts.

It ain't the engine- it's the people running the boat that make it safer. Perhaps voyaging with no or limited engine power makes those sailors more aware and more careful. I suspect so anyway.

Of course we have an engine and where we sail we need it often. these days most people do because marinas and yacht clubs aren't as user friendly toward sailing in and out as they were even 25 yeas ago. But we sure love being able to NOT use it when sailing is an option. That's a big part of the sport (addiction?) to us

I'm not sure I would recommend an outboard on your boat, but I can tell you a little about how it works on mine.  I have a Tanzer 28, a fin keel boat with a vertical transom.  It was easy to put a Fulton Four-stroke outboard bracket on it. I needed about 4" of wood block as a spacer between the outboard bracket and the transom when mounting the bracket.  I just epoxied two pieces of 2x6 together.  Lots of caulk, a few big bolts, a backing plate of plywood inside the boat and the deed was done.   

I use a Tohatsu 6hp four cycle single cylinder long shaft.  It has plenty of power.  I usually run just a little over idle speed.  I would recommend a four cycle for pushing a sailboat, the four cycles seem to work well with the non-planing slow motoring speed. I have the regular prop, not the thrust prop, it works fine.  It doesn't use much gas.

When running into the wind, like down a channel into a 6 foot chop or higher, the prop will catch some air.  This means you can't run at full throttle into the wind when you would really like to push it.  But if you put your sails up and have a little patience it does work.  I motor sail into the wind and try to get an angle into the wind to get a decent set of the sail. It helps.  Sometimes I kind of tack across the channel if it is not busy.  But even at low power running into the wind, the outboard has enough thrust to move the hull.

I pulled the old gas Volvo out and cleaned up the gunk out of the "motor" room, painted it and put some plywood floors in it and now I have a sail locker.  The boat is cleaner, smells better and I have more storage room than I need.  I could put a transverse bunk down there if I wanted to.  I left the old shaft in place thinking if it didn't work out I could put another motor in but no way am I letting one of those stinky oil burners into my living area.

The other benefit is the cost compared to repowering with an inboard.  I think I spent about 1400 on the motor and 150 on the bracket (I'm guessing, my memory has faded).  A replacement diesel would be approaching 10 grand.  And if my motor dies, it takes about 15 minutes to replace.

One down side is that to drop the outboard bracket, I have to lean over the transom and grab a handle and push the motor down.  Sometimes I just leave the motor down and sail with it in the motoring position, out of laziness.  But it is not too hard to pull it all the way up and take it out of the water leaving a clean hull to sail with.

I start my motor with a pull start.  I do not have a generator on the motor.  All my electric power comes from a solar panel.  I don't have a fridge or any power hog loads other than an tillerpilot and a ham radio. I have never been without power and I don't need any noisemakers to generate it.  A 9.9hp Yamaha would be nice but the Tohatsu is still light enough that I can lift it up (barely) and mount it when the boat is on the trailer.  I would not want a heavier motor.

(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/46.jpg)

(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/79.jpg)

(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/81.jpg)

(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/82.jpg)

(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/144.jpg)

And here's the same setup on our boat. We can't easily get the motor out of the water- It's a Yamaha 8 HP and takes about 30 minutes to remove- plus it needs a wrench to remove the tiller from the motor. We LOVE the shifter right on the engine tiller by the way.

Could NOT use a bracket on the stern- way to hard to reach, plus the transom is just not suitable for it. So it'll live in the well, and we'll accept the small amount of drag.

We make hull speed at UNDER the start setting on the motor. At 5 knots it gives us about 8 hours out of a 3 gallon tank. That's from roughly 3200 miles of waterway running experience so far.

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1197600768.jpg)

Here is the payoff:

(http://www.cruisenews.net/tanzer/2002prelaunch/14.jpg)

(http://www.cruisenews.net/tanzer/2002prelaunch/47.jpg)

now THAT is a lot of extra storage space

It really depends on how good of sailor you are. If you encounted much counter wind or current, this is to small of motor for you. Put a bigger motor that you have in the boat and a bigger prop. You may be supprised at how well this handles and corrects any problems that you create.

I know I'm a bit late on this, but wanted to chime in since I think our boats are comparable in size.  We sail an Alberg 30 (30'3" LOA and 4.5 tons) with the inboard removed and stern hung outboard.  The outboard is an 8 HP Johnson Sailmaster UltraLongShaft.

I absolutely LOVE or LIKE the following about this arrangement:

• opening up the engine compartment - that's the battery bay now, and I will be adding some slide-out shelves over the batts for tools and spares.  Also pick up the storage capacity of the inboard tank
• built-in redundancy for dingy propulsion
• I get to lose a couple of underwater thru-hulls in this spring's refit
• The engine that came out was an A-4 - and (personal opinion) I am not a BIG fan of gasoline inboard propulsion, and thus would not want to replace with a rebuilt A-4; to replace this engine with a diesel would be quite expensive; operating with an outboard is a MUCH less expensive opotion, thus letting us get out, some anyway, sooner.
• It lets me, or forces me, to think 'sailboat first.' As you said, I like to move toward an engineless mindset.  I'd prefer an engineless boat, but having mechanical propulsion is one of the 'concession' I make to my wife (even though she has seen, numerous times, when the sails get us there that the engine has not).

Things I don't like or HATE about it:

• It really is a flat water solution; anything above about 4 footers and she tachs out.  Then again, if you are thinking "engineless" you are not relying on the ob in sea states like that, are you!
• It sure is uuuuugly
• Not the best for fore-aft trim; but the ob can be removed and stowed (I have not done this on my boat underway)
• With the small prop on an ob, compared to an ib, the acceleration is sluggish at best.  Heck, you are underpowered anyway at 8 HP pushing a four tonner.  It WILL get the boat moving, but it takes a while.  As in, you have to be CAREFUL in tight maneuvering - you don't stop-start with the engine like you do with a larger propped inboard.

I would like to make a quick observation about the electric solution.  It's a neat idea, but it takes an ENORMOUS amount of juice.  Look at the actual test results (A 35-37 footer, iirc).  To me, it's just not practical:

• enormous wiring, though short runs, to handle the current loads
• 48V or 60V system with sufficient capacity to actually be useful works out to 8 or ten Group 27 wet cells. How heavy is that inboard you are removing?
• Gen-Set + fuel for gen-set; ooops, there goes the weight/space savings of getting rid of the inboard
• extremely limited use potential; don't forget Peukert's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peukert's_law) when doing those amp-hour calcs, and keep in mind you'll be drawing off those batts to the tune of 30-100 amps.  In other words, you won't get anything near the 'advertised' capacity per battery (note in the tests, he didn't), since the test current draw is typically 5 amps.

So, in my mind it loses in the old engineering cost-benefit analysis, especially considering your stated use profile: an overly complicated, heavy, multicomponent system for something you plan to use a few minutes at a time on each end of your trip.  Sorry to be the nay-sayer on this one, but that's my read.

Given that, doesn't the simplicity of an outboard sound MUCH better?

John at Hazzards Marine showed me a honkin' BIG ole Minn Kota thruster (OK, trolling motor :) ) that they've mounted on the stern of a single-screw trawler. I'll see if I can get some pics for y'all. If it's size is any indication, it might be well suited for basic use as a few-minute auxiliary, and it is submersible, so it could be mounted to a contraption that was dropped into the water when needed.

Looked at websites, and found out it's either the 80lb thrust (24V) model, or the 101lb thrust (36V) model. I do not know how that translates into "oomph" for pushing a boat, but the cost for the 80lb'er from BassPro (http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&partNumber=73585) is US$829, the 101lb'er is US$929, so price-wise (even with a set of batteries) they are affordable in some sense, or at least cheaper than a brand-new outboard of greater than 6-8hp...

FWIW, random thoughts - I'm an 'outboard-in-a-well'er', and I like it much more than my former diesel inboard (that was in a different boat). I've got 6 horses back there, a 4 stroke Merc (Tohatsu). The fuel burn is minimal (.25gal/hour), and she'll push the boat at hull speed in wind up to about 15-18, I'd guesstimate. Over that, she takes a hit, and when it gets to 35 or so, the wind begins to overpower the o/b if going straight to windward.

I wish I could put a Seagull-sized fan on a smaller motor, trading speed for pure torque, while saving weight. I've never quite ruled out getting a 'Gull, eventually...

Wow,

  I know I am coming to this discussion late (if you are even still reading this thread).

I like what Charlie brought to the table with this idea;

QuoteI have a friend on the east coast who is seriously contemplating removing the inboard from an Alberg 30 and building a well in the lazerette for an OB.

  I have an outboard in a well, and find it to be an ideal setup.  The prop stays in the water, the motor is easy to remove, work on, and replace if necessary.

  Don't know if this would work on your boat, but if there is an overhang and a lazaratte you might take a look at James Baldwin's "The Inside Outboard"  (http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/outboard.htm) Where he converted an 28' inboard powered boat to an outboard in a well.

CaptnK - I have a 6 hp Merc on the Clipper.  I swapped to a high thrust prop and made a world of difference.  Your boat is a bit larger than that one is (23', 3,000#), but if you haven't tried it, its worth a shot.  FWIW - I probably won't be getting that boat wet this year, so if you would like, I could jerk the prop and send it to you to try before you dumped $80+ into one

Kewl - Thanks for the offer, Leroy! I just might take you up on that. :) If I do, I'll send you a PM or an email. And some 6 pack money fer yer offer and trouble.  ;D

Quote from: CharlieJ on December 13, 2007, 10:00:12 PM
And here's the same setup on our boat. We can't easily get the motor out of the water- It's a Yamaha 8 HP and takes about 30 minutes to remove- plus it needs a wrench to remove the tiller from the motor. We LOVE the shifter right on the engine tiller by the way.

Could NOT use a bracket on the stern- way to hard to reach, plus the transom is just not suitable for it. So it'll live in the well, and we'll accept the small amount of drag.

We make hull speed at UNDER the start setting on the motor. At 5 knots it gives us about 8 hours out of a 3 gallon tank. That's from roughly 3200 miles of waterway running experience so far.

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1197600768.jpg)

Very cool photo Charlie! I want to install a tiller pilot in my boat, and I have the same cockpit configuration as Tehani (I didn't knew if it'll be ok to drill a hole in the cockpit locker lid) :)

Gus

Quote from: CharlieJ on December 13, 2007, 10:00:12 PM

We make hull speed at UNDER the start setting on the motor. At 5 knots it gives us about 8 hours out of a 3 gallon tank. That's from roughly 3200 miles of waterway running experience so far.

So Charlie, (or anyone for that matter) I am going to have to get a new motor for the Ariel, and since a shift in the cockpit would be wonderful, I am looking at the Yamahas. I excpect to be dealing with some fairly serious currents up north so I am leaning towards the 9.9 as opposed to the 8. The weight difference is about 10 lbs. (91 for the 9.9) Am I being foolish? (wouldn't be the first time) ;D

Quote from: Tim on February 07, 2008, 10:01:40 PM

I excpect to be dealing with some fairly serious currents up north so I am leaning towards the 9.9 as opposed to the 8. The weight difference is about 10 lbs. (91 for the 9.9) Am I being foolish? (wouldn't be the first time) ;D

Hull speed through the water is hull speed through the water - how does the current effect what size OB you get? Assuming the 8 HP will push your boat at hull speed, the 9.9 won't do any better than that (assuming also you won't plane your Ariel with a small outboard).

Just curious, because I see this kind of statement all the time.

Two replies here- first Gus.

Under that hole in the cockpit seat is a block thick enough so the little sleeve for the tiller pilot doesn't come through to LEAVE a hole. Then the sleeve is epoxied in place. So it can't leak

Smollet- get the 8- we've run agains some pretty  stiff currents and NEVER  used more than half throttle

Here's a point I'd like to make- I just last week  did a delivery of a damaged 34 foot trimaran- 160 miles using a heavy aluminum  flats boat  ( tunnel hull) as a push boat, strapped to the stern of the tri, like a tug would be. Over the majority of the trip, we ran about 5 to 5.5  mph pushing BOTH boats with a Honda 10 HP, running at 3/4 throttle. We used the big motor, a 140 hp, when we were passing through bridges and through locks, because we had better control of it, via the push boat steering. In the first shot the big motor is running also as we had just passed under the Galveston Causeway. In the second we just have the Honda going, steering from the tri. We previously ripped up the prop on the other small engine so it was out of commission.

But the point is that that 10 hp pushed a WHOLE lotta rig quite nicely, with wind, against wind, with current,, against current.

We  put the 8 HP on Tehani for two reasons- It was the smallest two cylinder available- we did NOT want a single cylinder engine but would have gotten a 6 HP if one had been made in 2 cylinders.  And it was available with the shifter on the engine tiller, which makes it REALLY nice. Well, three reasons really- we were broke down in southern Louisiana and that was THE only reasonable engine we could get with every thing we wanted ;D

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1201830322.jpg)

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1201830602.jpg)

Charlie, It was I who asked about the Yamaha motor, it was Captain Smollet who questioned my sanity ;)

I just wasn't sure about the displacement difference between our two boats, and whether there would be any advantage in some of the narrow straits to having a little more power.

I realize I am not going to get her past hull speed but wasn't sure if cross currents could make a difference.

I have seen underpowered boats being pushed around up there.

Tim

Thanks for the tip on the block under the seat! I could have never though of that myself.

My boat came with a 9.9 Mercury, and it is waaaaaaaaay over kill. It weights a ton (like 85 pounds), and I usually don't run it at full throttle. I like the alternator in the motor, so if I ever get another motor it'll have an alternator. I like the shifter in the tiller too, but I'm looking to get cockpit controls since my outboard sits a bit too far out the transom.

edit: punctuation

Tim -

I've a 6hp 4stk Merc (Tohatsu) on my Ariel, and IMCO that'll do the job for you just fine 95+% of the time. I think 8hp would be overkill, weight-wise (and in the end of the boat, no less), with not a lot of benefit to show for it.

Currents here run 3-4 kts on a regular basis. The 6hp is plenty of engine, it's the prop that could use some help, I believe, for maneuverability as much as anything (o/b in a well doesn't handle so well at low speed). Pivoting the engine in the well seems to help with the maneuverability a lot - too big an engine would not allow you to do that.

Only time I've needed more than what I've got was in really stiff wind (25 or more sustained, w/gusts) and current (at least 2-3 kts) from the exact same direction; the 6hp with a standard prop didn't have the uumph to head straight upwind, but I was able to make way on by 'tacking', or taking the wind on the forward quarter instead of right over the bow. Had I not been intently heading to my before-mentioned hurricane hole (left a little late that time...  ;D), I would have just anchored for a while, 'til the tide slowed or changed.

I have internal arguments all the time about selling the 6, and just using my 3.5 dinghy motor, actually. :)

Additionally:

IIRC, my 6hp weighs around 55-60 lbs - which means you will have 20-30 more lbs of weight in your stern with those larger motors, Tim. Gotta watch weight when it's aft on these Ariels - with their fine, fine butts  ;D, they like to squat. :)

And like CJ, I rarely use much throttle once underway. I tick along at hull speed burning about .25 gal/hour.

Longest run yet was (IIR these #'s correctly) 125 miles, took 7 gals gas, was 32 hours underway. That nets a lil over 4 kts boat speed, but take 4 hours off for breaks & drawbridges, and consider that the first 15-18 miles was into 30 kt winds, with 3-4 seas on the Cape Fear River (thankfully, I had an ebb tide to help), and it works out close enough for me. :)

Hey Gus - what's it like, getting a 22' sailboat up on plane? ;D

(Yep, that's a whompin big motor!)

Quote from: CapnK on February 08, 2008, 01:24:00 AM
Additionally:

IIRC, my 6hp weighs around 55-60 lbs - which means you will have 20-30 more lbs of weight in your stern with those larger motors, Tim. Gotta watch weight when it's aft on these Ariels - with their fine, fine butts  ;D, they like to squat. :)

Thanks Capn K, That's what I needed to hear, "8 hp is already on the over powered side." I have a brand new 5hp for the Potter that I would  probably use if it weren't for the shift lever position, it currently had a 3.5 Nissan on it.

Tim

Tim - there is a small company making an aftermarket tiller mounted engine control setup. I cannot recall the name of the company, and my Google-fu is not so strong this morning, so I don't have a link yet, but I'll tell you what I remember... I've posted about it somewhere before, here, Ariel site, or TSBB...

It is a unit that mounts to the tiller itself (tho I think you can cockpit mount it as well) that allows for remote operation of smaller outboards from different o/b makers: throttle and gear, I remember, I don't recall if it had steering or not, but I don't think it did.

Maybe that will tick a memory in someone else's brain, and they'll recall the name or the product maker. In the meanwhile, I'm doing some more searching - if I turn anything up, I'll post it. A friends bro-in-law has one on his Hunter 28, so I'll call him later today if I can't find the info elsewhere...

Yamaha has longer cables available so you can remove the tiller from the outboard and remount it elsewhere. I've seen a tri with a Yamaha engine on the stern and the tiller mounted on the boats tiller, some 8 feet away or so. The shift and throttle are both cable driven.

The problems with getting to full displacements speeds is the ABOVE water problems, like high winds and rough seas. This increase the drag thus needing more hoursepower to move the boat at speeds. As well as turnring the boat and stopping the boat.  A bigger motor will help going to windward and in heavy seas where a minimum hp outboard would send you back. The same with getting into and leaving a dock. I use my 50 hp on my Mac 26M to help move and stop the boat at the dock all the time. People are impressed. I can reverse directions so fast/hard that I have hurt myself. The weight difference in the stern is not that much of a problem as most boats are rated for 4 or more people in the cockpit.
     
       When I crossed over to Bimini my buddy boat was a MacGregor 25 and he had a 25 hp. It would not get the boat on plan but would and did keep pushing the boat into 20+ winds and 5 foot seas. He was in his 30's and in good shape but exhausted at the end of the crossing. Other displacement boats could not have done this with smaller motors.

The other advantage is with the bigger motors you can charge your batteries more/faster than with the smaller ones.

I have a 8 HP Yamaha 2 stroke on my Commander (same outboard well as the Ariel). I believe it weighs the same as a 6 HP 2 stroke, and a little extra push comes in handy. 

I don't think an 8 or 9.9 4 stroke will fit in the well (although the engines seem to be getting smaller lately). Some 6 HP 4 strokes will fit.

You definitely want the ability to swivel the engine. Makes all the difference backing up.

I have the Yamaha 701 remote engine control in the cockpit. You can sometimes find them on ebay

(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/commanderpete/twins.jpg)

Quote from: CapnK on February 08, 2008, 08:53:40 AM

Tim - there is a small company making an aftermarket tiller mounted engine control setup. I cannot recall the name of the company,

Tohatsu sells 'em for their engines; I imagine each manufacturer does likewise?

There has been some discussion about this on TSBB with, iirc, some folks showing some home-made setups.  Might be worth it to search the archives over there.

Quote from: Lynx

The problems with getting to full displacements speeds is the ABOVE water problems, like high winds and rough seas. This increase the drag thus needing more hoursepower to move the boat at speeds. As well as turnring the boat and stopping the boat.  A bigger motor will help going to windward and in heavy seas where a minimum hp outboard would send you back. The same with getting into and leaving a dock. I use my 50 hp on my Mac 26M to help move and stop the boat at the dock all the time. People are impressed. I can reverse directions so fast/hard that I have hurt myself. The weight difference in the stern is not that much of a problem as most boats are rated for 4 or more people in the cockpit.
     
       When I crossed over to Bimini my buddy boat was a MacGregor 25 and he had a 25 hp. It would not get the boat on plan but would and did keep pushing the boat into 20+ winds and 5 foot seas. He was in his 30's and in good shape but exhausted at the end of the crossing. Other displacement boats could not have done this with smaller motors.

The other advantage is with the bigger motors you can charge your batteries more/faster than with the smaller ones.

An apples and oranges comparison.  Those two Mac set-ups are on a completely different part of the performance spectrum than a full keeled, relatively heavy displacement cruising boat.

You are talking about a MUCH bigger difference in OB horsepower/boat weight ratio than Tim is.  He's talking about going from 6 or 8 hp to 9.9; The Ariel has a dry displacement of 5120 lbs, or lets say 2.5 tons. Your Mac is about 2860, or about 1.5 tons.  For grins, lets say that we are getting all that engine HP to water, which is a pipe dream, but the math is easier.

For the Ariel with a 6 HP, the HP/Displ ratio is 2.4 HP/ton.  Going to a 9.9 HP gives a skosh under 4 HP / ton.

Your Mac with a 50 HP has 33 HP / ton.  Shoot, even if you run at 1/4 rated HP, you are still over TWICE the HP/ton as the Ariel with the larger HP ob.

The numbers are similar for the Mac 25 - at 2100 lbs, lets call it 1 ton.  That 25 HP OB gives her an HP/Disp ratio of 25, more in the ballpark of your 50 on the Mac26 running at 3/4 throtle.

The key point is that Tim with an Ariel is NOT going to gain a whole heck of a lot in wave/wind pushing ability (I stand by my initial thesis that CURRENT makes no difference in and of itself) going from a 6 hp to a 9.9 hp (all else being equal...prop efficiency, yadda yadda, etc).  For that marginal increase in on-paper performance, he will burn more fuel and put more weight in the stern of his boat.

Let's face it: a two and a half ton boat with an outboard is a sailboat, not a "motorsailor."  It's not going to perform like a motorboat, period.  The numbers are even worse for my Alberg, at 4.5 tons with an 8 HP outboard, by the way.  I will NOT, under any circumstances, rely on that engine to get me out of trouble.  It is a convenience, nothing more.

And just out of curiosity, why was your friend motoring and not sailing?

Living pretty large there, C'Pete!

Hope yer watchin yer consumption while underway, wouldn't want to see any lactose-induced sailing accidents happen!

IIRC, it's called a power tiller, and they advertise in the back of GOB magazine pretty regularly.  Their website is located here:  http://powertiller.net/

Quote from: CapnK on February 08, 2008, 08:53:40 AM
Tim - there is a small company making an aftermarket tiller mounted engine control setup. I cannot recall the name of the company, and my Google-fu is not so strong this morning, so I don't have a link yet, but I'll tell you what I remember... I've posted about it somewhere before, here, Ariel site, or TSBB...

It is a unit that mounts to the tiller itself (tho I think you can cockpit mount it as well) that allows for remote operation of smaller outboards from different o/b makers: throttle and gear, I remember, I don't recall if it had steering or not, but I don't think it did.

Maybe that will tick a memory in someone else's brain, and they'll recall the name or the product maker. In the meanwhile, I'm doing some more searching - if I turn anything up, I'll post it. A friends bro-in-law has one on his Hunter 28, so I'll call him later today if I can't find the info elsewhere...

Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 08, 2008, 10:49:02 AM

(I stand by my initial thesis that CURRENT makes no difference in and of itself)

Agree totally- with boats like the Ariel and my Meridian, more horsepower isn't gonna give you one bit more speed through the water. Hull speed limits and if you are heading into a 5 knot current, on the Meridian you are gonna get another 1/2 knot- well MAYBE 1 more knot, before the stern starts to squat and pull up a huge wave- The hull form just won't GO any faster.

Now into a wind, yeah- then you can gain something, but most of us rarely power into THAT much wind- at least we don't.

Thanks to all,

The add on tiller control like a true remote control looks to me to a bit more cockpit crowding than I care for, so I will probably go for the 8 hp Yamaha with the shift on the tiller.

The actual hole that motor drops into is 13x13, Is that any smaller than the one you have in Tehani Charlie?

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1202267758.jpg)

Meantime I may try my Honda out, putting and an extension on the shift control.

Tim

I can see that there is about a 25%+ change in hp and it may not be that much of a difference. However if he went to a 20 hp with a high thrust prop/gear ratio, there would be a good deal of difference in to the wind performance and handling at the dock. the weight of the motor is a good size person and may take some beefing up of the transom.

My friend and I was crossing the Gulf Stream and had strong wind on the nose. About 1 1/2 hrs he was able to use the main to help the ride.

I try not to get into situations where I have to depends on the motor but it can make all the difference due to poor judgment on yours or somebodies else's.

The reality of my plans are that if I was to have to buck serious winds I would probably stay put.  :)

I've often thought of replacing my old 9.9 Johnson, on my old 25' Ericson(5500lbs disp.), with an electric motor but don't know how to compair OBhp with electric "lbs of thrust". Is there a secret formula or some esoteric book of comparisons that I might look up? I have two group 27 battery's but would only have to push "Perigryn" about 200 yards out and back from our slip. I know that our 9.9 is over kill and would like to save some weight on the back side. Any ideas ????

Far winds,

Pappy Jack

I suggest that you get a dinghy and use the motor for it. I justed towed a 23 Compac about 500 feet with a 2 hp, no chop with about 10 mph winds without a problem.

Recharging the batteries might be a problem as well as an incomplete charge.

The small hp motors are under $ 1g. Very common on dinghies in the Bahamas now.


1 HP = 746 Watts. Volts X amps = watts. This should give you the hp rating of the motor give or take 20%.

Thanks Lynx,

I know about Ohm's law and that 1 hp=750 watts. Also that the efficiency rating for gas engines to electric motors is about 5 to 1 (iirc). I've been looking through WM and all they say about their motors is voltage and thrust ::). If I had something else to work with, like ohms, amps or the like, I might be able to figure it out ;). Well, I suppose I could just call Minn Kota and ask them. I talked to the people at Johnson (OMC) and they didn't know a thing about this. Oh well, thanks again for the help :).

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

Hi Pappy,

The problem is that it is actually kinda hard to compare lbs thrust from an electric to engine HP on an ICE.  Part of that is due to the fact that the electrics can deliver constant torque no matter of rpm; speed through the water is another variable.  In other words, HP vs Thrust are two different things.

The conversion is not straightforward.  See for example, the following links:

Aerospaceweb.org (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0195.shtml)
OnlineConversion.com (http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_1010767512.htm)

Finally, perhaps a useful page if you are considering electric power:

Electric Boat Powering (http://www.mindspring.com/~jimkerr1/sebc&t.htm)

Hi Captn. Smollett,

Huh? I think that is just too much for this old sailors mind to comprehend ::).I did some snooping on line and found out that Min Kota makes a 2hp 48v motor that should do the job. The fly in the ointment would be the 48v power supply. That would mean four 12v battery's in series (too much weight :o). I suppose that when all is said and done, a smaller OB, say, a four or six horse would be the best and simplest way to go ;).

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack
P.S. Thank again for taking the time to help ;).

I think that it is a sales game. An electric 2 hp 12v motor at 760 watts per horsepower would draw 116 amps roughly per hour.

The dream of going pure electric is not here yet.

I like you folks, but I have given up trying to argue or discuss electric outboards with you all. I seem to be the only one that uses them, have done for th elast 6 years and have loved it. It only ever got overpowered once, but a 5hp IC outboard would have been feeling the crunch too. Just a bad situation all round.
all the other dozens of times I have loved it. That was my old 28# thrust Mariner...

Today I took delivery of a brand new 68# thrust unit!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looking forwards to trying her out, perhaps tomorrow.

Oh heck...I can't stop arguing...

48 volts will get you up to a 6hp equivalent. Upping 5the voltage is actually really good as it allows you to stay with smaller cables and not be dragging 8pounds of copper cable around. getting 48volts out of a space that would fit one decent battery is not difficult. 12volt battereis come in all sizes. if you want lead acid then use four motorcycle batteries starpped iside a plastic battery box (the box even gives you the option for carrying straps etc...) If you want to use AGM batteries (And I know I love them and recommend them highly) then there are small units available that allow you tot do the same thing.

Zero problem. A little creative wiring will see you able to plug nto a 12volt recharger and have everything behave as per normal.

The 68# thrust unit is about the largest 12volt motor you can get.

As always it is also an issue of finding the prop that gives you what you want...
Fortunately nearly all companies now offer a selection fo props to choose from. I was surprised that I did not have to choose, my unit arrived with a total of four props all optimised for pushing different weights of boat and hull types.

Oh well, to each their own...Personally I love moving almost silently and cleanly.

Alex.

Oh, I'd love going electric. But for where we sail and how we currently use the boat it simply isn't a practical option. Leaving our marina we normally must power 4 to 5 miles straight up wind in a very narrow channel, which we share with ocean going ships , tow boats and shrimpers, before we get to a wide enough section so we CAN sail. If the wind happens to be such that we CAN sail ( rarely) that channel, then we frequently must power the same 4 to 5 miles to get back.

If our marina was on a different part of the bay where they are able to just duck outside the marina break water and hoist sail, I'd do it for sure. But that would mean a 50 mile drive instead of a 12 mile drive to get to the boat. And the same drive getting home.

So for now we'll stay with the gas engine.

I honestly wouldn't recommend an electric trolling motor for moving the yacht around, except to get in and out of a pen and maybe out fo a quiet marina....
I have my 20hp diesel for my 26 footer, and I like it!

My love of electric outboards is for pushing around the tender. No smells, no spills, no service and no noise when it is running...It means you get to run over ducks who never hear you approaching. It means you get to chat with people on other boats and at the docks.

Also, there are no emition restrictions (so we get to take it on lakes and reservoirs that normal motor boats are forbidden) or licensing requirments...My 2 year old son loves driving the boat, and the water police just grin  and compliment him on his skill.

It's a niche thing. It works for us really well, it may not work for everyone.

The week after next I am taking my wife and son exploring up the yarra River...I plan to go about 7 miles each way and the river flows at around 4 knots... Add in the time to explore around a few of the little islands and the battery is just not going to hack it, so for that trip, for the first time in something like four years, the 2stroke outboard is coming out of mothballs. I'll have the electric strapped to the transom as well. use the 2stroke to motor upriver, then turn it off and putter around the islands with the electric...Should be perfect for coming back with the current as well!

Alex.

The no license requirement depends on where you live. If you put that electric motor on a dinghy in Texas you MUST register the boat, and put numbers on it, along with the yearly sticker. ANY boat that isn't rowed, paddled, poled or oared is the way it reads. Also sailboats 14 feet and over. Sailboats 13 feet, 11 inches and under don't require registration

But yeah- we have a small aluminum fishing boat- 10 footer- that works really well with an electric- and oars ;D

If you want to be a purest ::), you could use an oar(sweep). I think that we all know that the Pardee's have always used one and James Baldwin used one on his Triton. Both have double circumnavigations to their credit ;D. Just my .02 cents worth ::). If anybody is interested, here is a website that might be interesting to you,  www.oarclub.org

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

I am trying to get a sculling oar finished for use on the Potter, if I get good enough at it, I may try it on the Ariel

Tim

I do envy you being able to move the boat like that. I just want to go to far and fast I guess. Good luck All of us are different as well as the cruising areas and needs.

Fair winds and safe seas.

Quote from: Tim on February 07, 2008, 10:01:40 PM
I am going to have to get a new motor for the Ariel, and since a shift in the cockpit would be wonderful, I am looking at the Yamahas. I excpect to be dealing with some fairly serious currents up north so I am leaning towards the 9.9 as opposed to the 8. The weight difference is about 10 lbs. (91 for the 9.9) Am I being foolish? (wouldn't be the first time) ;D

Tim,

  FWIW I have some experience with this.  I currently have a Yamaha 6hp (2 cyl, 2stroke) in the well of my Ariel.  It has been a great motor and has pushed the boat just fine through all kinds of conditions.  Yahama makes both the 6 and 8hp models on this same platform. 

  I had an 8hp Suzuki (2 stroke) and saw the same speeds with it that I do with the 6hp.  I gained nothing with the extra 2hp, and in choosing which motor to get rid of I let the Suzuki go.

  Rose and I delivered Ariel #3 (Ariel Spirit) from near Annapolis to NC.  It has a 9.9hp Merc with an external shifter/throttle.

  IMHO, the 9.9 was much too hp for the Ariel.  Anything more then enough Hp to approach hull speed just makes the stern squat and increases the bow wave.  Hull speed has nothing to do with your speed over ground and it is only relitive to your speed through the water so I add my voice to the others who say the extra hp is not going to do anything to help with 'extra current'.  In a boat with bunches of freeboard the effect of wind might be a consideration, but I have not found that to be the case with the Ariel.  I will say that if there is wind, I normally have at least some bit of sail up.

  In the couple weeks aboard that boat I found the external shifter / throttle on the Ariel to be more of a PITA to use then the lever on the side of the outboard powerhead and would not want that on my boat.  THe owner later had problems with the set up, not to mention having the powerboatish appendage in the cockpit to trip over and deal with while underway.

  I keep the tiller arm folded up and operate the throttle and shifter with the lazy-rat hatch open.  Even a few degrees of being able to turn the motor makes a world of difference especially when backing up.

  My Yahaha weighs 66# and is about the most I would want to try to lift up out of the well.  I did install and lift the 9.9 and it was no fun (may well have assisted in my needing surgery for hernia).

  If I were to replace my motor, I think I would go for the mercury/nissan/tomatsu 5 or 6hp 4 stroke.  They are all the same motor made by tomatsu with different stickers.  I have a 20" (medium) shaft on the Yahaha and have never had it come out of the water even in pretty rough stuff.  I would not opt for the 25" shaft as the extra 5" will just add more drag when sailing.

  If I read correctly you have a 5hp right now, maybe you could give that a try for a bit and then decide. 

Good luck

I would really like to hear about how the sculling oar works on the Ariel.  I also think the trolling motor idea is a good one for just moving the boat short distances.

He makes a good point about windage, My Mac is about 1.5 feet taller that his and it does not track well to windward.

Figured this would be a good topic. Want to praise my new Tohatsu 6HP extra long shaft (25in) 5 amp alt., 4 stroke. It is under 60 lbs, starts 1st or 2nd pull and ...drum roll please....gets 21 1/2 hrs on a 6 gallon (thats 5 Canadian eh) tank.I replaced the prop for more 'push' and it shoved us into the wind, fully loaded with gear and 3- 200lb + guys at 2.8 to 3.6 knots . Very happy with it...cheap too ;-)

Very nice... I like the new Tohatsu four-stroke outboards. I have the 3.5 HP for my dinghy... and I've been very happy with it.  I have a 20 HP Honda four-stroke for the big boat...and been very happy with that too. :) I'll have to see what I get for run time on it though... Gives me about 6 knots at 2/3-3/4 throttle, 7.5 WOT. 

Tohatsu used to be an unreliable joke...then they came up witht he extremely nice diesel outboards...and pretty much went broke doing it. Being bought by Nissan was the best thing that ever happened to them. Quality went up amazingly,but they kept the ruggedness and oomph of the original beasts. If I did not have an inboard, I would have a tohatsu.

When I researched a new 4 stroke outboard before we left I was surprised to learn that the smaller HP Nissan's and Mercury's were the exact same motor as the Tomatsu.

  The cost for the 6hp Nissan and the Tomatsu were both ~ $1,250 (Alex post below makes this make sense) but the same motor with Mercury stickers was as much as $1900! 

  I stopped by a local mercury dealer and asked about the difference.  He said 'You get what you pay for'.  When I asked what other then the sticker he was talking about he said 'if you can get the same motor for $1250 then buy it'.

  I still can not figure out why some one would pay ~$700 for brand loyalty...  ::)

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 27, 2008, 10:59:49 AM
Very nice... I like the new Tohatsu four-stroke outboards. I have the 3.5 HP for my dinghy... and I've been very happy with it.  I have a 20 HP Honda four-stroke for the big boat...and been very happy with that too. :) I'll have to see what I get for run time on it though... Gives me about 6 knots at 2/3-3/4 throttle, 7.5 WOT. 

With the limited drag of your multihull, you could probably use the 3.5hp to power your main vessel.  20hp is way more than you need.

A little research reveals the merc is not the same engine. It just uses the same cowlings.

The key si to look at replacement part lists form aftermarket companies that don't care about brand. So for example the Nissan and Tohatsu brands woudl both have carb kit number 755a88 regardless of brand....But the Merc would have kit number 433t7...This means that the cowling is stuffed with merc's home brand gear like their carbs and pumps and such...with just the basic engine block and cowling being generic between the brands. You will also likely notice differences in prop between all three brands (even though two are actually the same brand). Merc gets very insistent about always supplying their own props (and not for bad reason, they are a good unit)..as opposed to Honda, who's "quality" fit out for outboards include your choice of Yamaha or Merc props. Only the very most basic and cheap options come with honda's own props...Oh well, at least they are honest and aware of their stuff's limitations.

I would suggest that in a side-by-side test, even though the three motors you mentioned are identical in specs and looks, they would perform somewhat differently based on final fitout and such.

Alex.

Actually, 3.5 HP would be a bit anemic, given how much my multihull displaces.  It's probably about 4300 lbs. or a bit more the way I have it rigged, including food, gear, and crew.

Quote from: skylark on February 28, 2008, 08:05:41 AMWith the limited drag of your multihull, you could probably use the 3.5hp to power your main vessel.  20hp is way more than you need.

Looking for a 6hp outboard.

  Thinking about pulling the trigger on the Outboards.com Tomatsu 6. (http://www.onlineoutboards.com/6hp_tohatsu_outboard_motor.html)

  Anyone have any experince with the company?  How about a tip on a good used one?  :D

Thanks,

Craig, do a search on TSBB, there have been a few people that have bought through them.

Went ahead and bought a new Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke from

Couple of interesting things I learned;

  The motor comes with a 7.8" pitch prop.  They also sell an 7" and 6" prop.  The 6" is recommended for my boat.  There is also a 5.99" pitch prop, actually mfg by Merc, that has wide flat blades like a Yamaha 'high thrust' prop.  My experience with the Yamaha prop is that it causes more drag, but has more thrust in reverse. 

  I also learned there is no difference at all between the Merc, Tohatsu, and Nissan other then the stickers.  Merc has no special parts at all, nor did they have any input in the design (other then the EFI on the 25hp model).

  I also came across a write up on the Tohatsu site about "SMALLEST MOTOR TO EVER CROSS THE ATLANTIC- A 2.5HP TOHATSU BRINGS SEIKO NAKAJIMA SAFELY TO NEW YORK" (http://www.tohatsu.com/news/seiko.html)

Quote
On April 30, 1995, Seiko Nakajima, his 21ft boat and a 2.5hp Tohatsu outboard motor arrived at the historic South Street Seaport in New York City, concluding an eight-month voyage..... powered solely by his 2.5hpTohatsu

  Kind of a 'motor far' boat.  ;D

(http://www.tohatsu.com/news/pics/seiko3.jpg)

(http://www.tohatsu.com/news/pics/seiko2.jpg)

He built another boat that looked like a whale, and is now building another boat with a sail.

Apparently he was going to cross the Atlantic and Pacific with the whale, but had to stop due to health issues?

http://www.2hon5.ch/index-e.html

click on the boat links

Update on the Tohatsu 6hp I purchased a couple months back;

The new Tohatsu is sitting out in my shop right now, the oil is still draining from the first oil change. It has taken me almost 2 months to get the 10 hours on the motor, since I usually only motor a few minutes at a time to get in and out of the slip.

I had some oil burning in the first couple hours, mostly noticed it on start up. I think it was just the rings seating. I did notice that it was worse for the first couple minutes after starting, which normally would indicate leaky valve stem seals... but I think it had more to do with the fact that the motor was stowed on it's side in the lazy rat. (yes I did only stow it on the side with the tiller handle as per the manual.)

The motor starts on the second pull every time, and has a short warm up time. I like the angle of pull through the original cut out in the cockpit and am no longer interested in the 'vertical pull' option. I think it would be awkward for me, and looking at the $100 + kit I notice that it does not have a pulley to change the direction of pull, but just a curved tube. I wonder what the friction would be like... but don't think the option is something I want anyway.

I opted for the 20" shaft (really more like 23"). My Yamaha had a 22" shaft, and did not cavitate even in much chop so I saw no reason to go longer. It is a close fit in the lazy-rat hatch anyway, so I would not want the 25" shaft for fear it would not fit (or at least be tougher to put in).


I do notice a bit more vibration then I did with my old motor (2 cyl, 2 stroke Yamaha 6). Not so much that it is distracting. A 1 cyl inboard vibrates much more then this outboard.

I do like that I can close the lazy-rat hatch and not have the motor choke out on it's exhaust like the 2 stroke did. I have not tried to do this for prolonged running so I don't know that it can't happen, just that it does not happen as quickly.

I did get the optional charging system. I have seen 2.5a on my Link battery monitor, but suspect that the charge rate would be higher if my solar panel were not keeping the battery nearly full all the time.

The zink has only spent about 3 weeks in the water total. I pull the motor and lay it in the lazy-rat when I am sailing every day or nearly so. I was disappointed to see that the zink was nearly 2/3 gone after a total of 3 weeks. I used to get 6 - 9 months on the Yamaha zink but it was at least 4x as large. I also don't know how hot this marina is, so that might have something to do with it.

I did buy the 'high thrust' prop (5.999 x 8). I changed it out pretty early in the break in period so I have to re-mount the stock (7.8 x 8) prop to do a real comparison. I bought the prop as much for it's big flat blades as anything, as the one I had on my Yamaha seemed to back better. I did notice some difference in the backing, but will do more testing later.

Let me see if I can post some pictures

Sorry for bumping up a pretty old thread, but I have a question that pertains to this. How good is the new technology with 4 horse engines now? I know that there is not much to gain, and im an avid believer in KISS. I read the entire thread, and was very educational, however, here is my specific question:

Why even go that high to begin with? (ie 5, 6 etc) Couldn't you use the smallest (say a 2.5 horse) engine if you were just using it for navigating marinas? Especially as the water tends to be alot calmer. I mean, if you were trying to keep weight savings/costs down, wouldn't that be the option because you could then use it on your tender also? A 35 lbs, 2.5 horse that runs towards 6k rpm, 4 stroke, pull start. Seems pretty simple to me, and would sip on gas.

Or am I just way off?

As a general rule, going with the minimum horsepower for a sailboat auxiliary engine is a bad idea IMHO.  There is always the chance that you'll need to run the motor in heavy seas in an emergency... and if it is underpowered, you'll have a far lower safety margin than if you had a larger engine.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on October 29, 2008, 08:39:32 PM
As a general rule, going with the minimum horsepower for a sailboat auxiliary engine is a bad idea IMHO.  There is always the chance that you'll need to run the motor in heavy seas in an emergency... and if it is underpowered, you'll have a far lower safety margin than if you had a larger engine.

That I can understand, but for the purists, that are talking about oars vs engine, etc, it sounds like most still have the 6 - 9.9 range, yet lament the fact that they even have it.

Again, just curious, I might be missing the intent via typed vs spoken word.

Quote from: nowell on October 29, 2008, 07:16:42 PM
Sorry for bumping up a pretty old thread, but I have a question that pertains to this. How good is the new technology with 4 horse engines now? I know that there is not much to gain, and im an avid believer in KISS. I read the entire thread, and was very educational, however, here is my specific question:

Why even go that high to begin with? (ie 5, 6 etc) Couldn't you use the smallest (say a 2.5 horse) engine if you were just using it for navigating marinas? Especially as the water tends to be alot calmer. I mean, if you were trying to keep weight savings/costs down, wouldn't that be the option because you could then use it on your tender also? A 35 lbs, 2.5 horse that runs towards 6k rpm, 4 stroke, pull start. Seems pretty simple to me, and would sip on gas.

Or am I just way off?

  No problem with the age of the thread, grog for using it rather then starting a new one. 


WRT the "new technology" I am afraid we are actually losing ground rather then gaining it.  The trend from 2 stroke to 4 stroke has produced some gains in economy, and they run cleaner but they cost more, require more maintenance, and are heavier.  Sadly, the boatUS magazine I got yesterday says that catalytic converters are going to be mandatory for inboards AND OUTBOARDS! by 2010.  The extra weight, heat, expense, and maintenance of this will be a real issue for small boat Sailors.   :P

My 6hp 4stroke is more efficient then my 6hp 2 stroke Yamaha, but is not IMHO as good of a motor.  I would like to find another Yamaha, but would not buy a 4 stroke again if I had it to do over.

  I differ with Dan in that I do think you should go with the smaller motor when deciding between more hp and less.  I do think you should not do this if you see your sails as the back up to the motor.  I have, and use a motor so I am not a 'purest'.  I do have much more faith in my sails then my motor.  Without getting into a debate about it I will say this;

  1.) Good seamanship trumps more HP every single time.  No contest.

  2.) The very best of motors, inboard, outboard, or warp drive will fail you exactly when you are relying on them the most.

oops... I forgot to answer the original question...  :P

  Yes, I like a 4hp for a primary.  I like a 2 cyl, which is tougher to find in lower hp.  My Johnson 3 is a 2cyl, unfortunately it is a 15" shaft, which is a little short (but useable) for my well.  If I found a 4hp that I liked, I would consider it.  I have also moved Faith with a 2hp Johnson, but it had an even shorter shaft and the cav plate was just touching the water so I would not trust it for any distance.

QuoteI differ with Dan in that I do think you should go with the smaller motor when deciding between more hp and less.  I do think you should not do this if you see your sails as the back up to the motor.  I have, and use a motor so I am not a 'purest'.  I do have much more faith in my sails then my motor.  Without getting into a debate about it I will say this;

1.) Good seamanship trumps more HP every single time.  No contest.

  2.) The very best of motors, inboard, outboard, or warp drive will fail you exactly when you are relying on them the most.

Having too small a motor can mean that it can't do its job when you might need it.  That said, I fully agree with your two points, and prefer to use sails to power... but then again, I didn't practice what I preach when it came to fitting out the Pretty Gee... She's got a 20 HP and they do offer a 50. :)  Thought the 50 HP would adversely affect her ability to sail well...so didn't get it.  The better a sailor you are, the less necessary the motor is IMHO.... but I can't do the Cape Cod Canal without one... they get awfully pissy if you try. :)

I will be buying an outboard some time this early winter,  probably the Tohatsu 8 or 9.8 4 stroke, I like the idea of remote but that all depends on dollars.  I have a Johnson 9.5 2 stroke but can't get the thing running. 

I've also been thinking about replacing my outboard.  Maybe.  If certain conditions are met.

As things stand now, my 8hp 2 stroke Evinrude Yachtwin works fine.  If the weather is warm.  Otherwise it is very (very, VERY) difficult to start.  A week or so ago the weather was somewhere in the upper forties, I was anchored out and tried to start the outboard so that I could get on with my day.  It didn't start.  I absolutely needed it because the weather was calm, I was 50 miles from home, nasty weather was on the way, and my vacation was coming to an end (sailors should never have schedules ... it just isn't natural).  I pulled the starter cord probably 100 times.  I cleaned, and later changed the plugs.  I even tried using starter fluid.  Nothing would start the beast.  Eventually the temperature made it into the fifties and then I was able to start and run it just fine.  The same thing happened at the beginning of my trip when I needed the motor to leave the marina.  Something is wrong.

So I need to do maintenance.  But then I think, maybe this is a good excuse to replace it with a cleaner, quieter, more fuel efficient 4-stroke. 

Advantage 1: less pollution!  Of course, this is mitigated by the fact that finances dictate I would likely sell the smelly thing to someone else who would then run the beast at least as much as I do.  Therefor, no real benefit.

Advantage 2: better fuel efficiency.  I'm not sure how much better, of course, but I know it is an improvement.  However, this is mitigated by the fact that I can buy a LOT of gas for the price of a new motor (even if I subtract whatever the repair cost would be for the old motor).  The most gas I've bought in a season is probably 18 gallons (and usually far less).  Even if I doubled my fuel economy and saved 9 gallons a year at $5/gallon, that is only $45/year.  It takes a long time to make that pay.

Advantage 3: slightly more convenient as I wouldn't have to mix oil with the gas.  But then, I do have to worry about oil changes.

Disadvantage 1: It's heavier. 

Disadvantage 2: It's expensive.

Disadvantage 3: It's harder and more expensive to work on (hearsay, but I believe it).

Disadvantage 4: Bad things happen by doing something as simple as laying it on the wrong side.

Ok.  I've talked myself out of it.  For now (I'm a fickle beast).  Perhaps if I do long range cruising some day out away from easy fuel sources I may change my mind.

Datapoint: I probably ended up motoring for 35-40 miles while pushing the boat (somewhat dirty bottom, I suspect) in the high four to low five knot range for most of the way.  I used somewhere around 8 gallons of gas giving me a fuel efficiency of something under 4.5 to 5 miles per gallon.  I know by slowing down the efficiency goes up. 

Quote from: s/v godot on October 30, 2008, 10:36:23 AM


Datapoint: I probably ended up motoring for 35-40 miles while pushing the boat (somewhat dirty bottom, I suspect) in the high four to low five knot range for most of the way.  I used somewhere around 8 gallons of gas giving me a fuel efficiency of something under 4.5 to 5 miles per gallon.  I know by slowing down the efficiency goes up. 

That's pretty poor fuel economy. We use an 8HP Yamaha 4 stroke on Tehani- 5300 pounds dry, we figure 7000+ loaded. We run the engine at high idle- just under the start setting and get 5.1, 5.2 . At that speed a THREE gallon tank lasts about 7 1/2 to 8 hours. If we drop the speed to about 4.6 or so, we get close to NINE hours out of that same tank.

So our mileage is running roughly 15 MPG. And we've checked this over some 2000 miles of ICW travel- 1 1/2 trips to Florida and back.

A second HUGE advantage is we can actually TALK to each other in the cockpit with the engine running at cruise- with the 2 stroke- either of the ones we had- you had TO YELL TO BE HEARD. It became nerve racking.  SO the 4 stroke is MUCH better in that regard.

In 3 1/2 years now of use, we have had absolutely ZERO troubles with the engine.

And I LOVE the Yamaha shift, etc being right on the handle- makes handling the engine when docking, etc, almost like an inboard.

Granted our engine lives in a well  so the access is much easier..

Firstly, I was in no way trying to offend anyone with the "purist" comment. Second I just came back from Aquila getting her ready for the trip up the ICW to my new home off Oyster Creek, so im in high spirits.

Anyway, back on topic, the thing that intrests me, is that I can see, on passage crossings, you would hardly, if ever use your engine (inboard or out). With solar/wind you batteries are pretty much set. I was more curious about the people like the Pardey's, do they just stay out of busy marinas? Take the north east area (lived and sailed the patomic/chesepeake) even up to the NY area? I understand seamanship can give you the ability to handle almost any situation, but, like cars, its the OTHER guy in the boat bearing down on you that you have to worry about.

I guess im wondering at what point you rationalize that you need something for the times when you seamanship can't influence the other idiot? And with technology you wouldn't need much I would think.

That and after lugging my 8 horse johnson out of storage, to the boat, on and off the transom mount, lets just say that small 2.5 - 3 4 horse coming in at 40 some odd pounds looks like the best thing since sliced bread!

They often mention getting towed.

If we were sailing predominately offshore, I'd change out the 8 HP we have for something like a 4. The 8 takes about 1/2 hour to get in or out of the well, and you must use a wrench. Plus it really takes two people. A much smaller engine would be nice, for just getting in and out of harbor.

But for now we go places where we MUST motor to get there- sometimes for hours. For example, the ICW in eastern Texas and western Louisiana.  Not to mention the narrow channel, usually dead up wind we must run for 3 miles to get to open enough water to sail. So we'll keep the 8 for the time being. But on the other hand, we don't use it any more than we must.

Quote from: CharlieJ on October 30, 2008, 09:02:22 PM
They often mention getting towed.

Wouldn't that make the argument for a small outboard in favor of "cost effectiveness"? I guess if money was no object and you were dead set on no motor power what so ever, I could see that. I don't know. Having read a few articles by them, im just not buying some of these peoples arguments.

Anyway, great thread! Really enjoyable reading, and hearing everyones views!

So Charlie, do you think an 8hp would run my boat?

I don't think it would take that much. I can't find info on the disp of the 242, but I know it isn't as heavy as Tehani.  A 6 HP would do the job. HOWEVER, for instance, the Yamaha 6 HP 4 stroke is the identical engine, with a different carb apparently. Same bore,stroke, disp, weight, etc. So if you are gonna put the weight back there, you might as well get the most HP you can for it.

Too bad it's so hard to find a new 2 stroke in the smaller engines isn't it?

There were really two reasons we bought the 8 HP. First, we were crusing and the engine crapped in southern Louisiana, 3 or 4 hundred miles away from home. We had already bought a used engine for the boat on the way over to Florida and decided we didn't want another used one. That Yamaha was pretty much the ONLY small engine immediately available in the entire southern half of the state- we could get most anything, IF we waited two weeks.. Which we couldn't do- so we bit the bullet and bought the Yamaha. We've never been sorry for the purchase.

The second reason was that we had crept into a port on two occasions with only one cylinder firing. Laura vehemently wanted a 2 cylinder engine.  And the 6/8 HP models were the smallest 2 cylinder engine we could get. Anything smaller in a 4 stroke was a single cylinder.

Part of the problem with using a small outboard for sailboats is that most don't come with or have available to them a high-thrust prop.  They're designed for relatively light displacement skiffs, dinghies, etc.  That means that the prop that is available is often one that isn't going to be efficient for the engine, given the loads a sailboat puts on it. 

I'm actually a bit surprised that Tehani gets up to 5 knots with an 8 HP outboard.  What pitch prop are you using and what is the WOT RPM of the outboard?

Standard pitch- and WOT??? Never run there- we run at a high idle, just UNDER the start setting. Probably around 1/4 to 1/3 throttle. Any more and the stern begins to squat.

On a long day's running, once in a while I open it up WOT, just to let it run that way for a few minutes, otherwise the engine is pretty much at idle.

I can move the boat with the 2.2 Merc we use on the dinghy. Takes a bit to get it going, but once moving, it does just fine.I have used that engine to move around in the marina. Sure wouldn't do against a strong wind though ;D

FWIW,

  I believe Faith is slightly heavier then Tehani, and will motor over 5 knots with much less then full throttle with either the 2 stroke Yamaha 6hp, or the 6hp Tohatsu 4 stroke.  I do not recall the speed when motoring with the 3hp Johnson, but would not be surprised if it would make, if not approach 5knots.

  As many have stated, the average sailor overestimates the horse power required to move their sailboat.  Take a look at this thread;

Discussion of HP required to move sailboats....  (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1533.0)

More fuel for the fire...Gaelic Sea runs at 5 - 5.5 knots at about 2/3 throttle or less with an 8 HP outboard, assuming no major headwind.  That's 9000 lbs hull displacement, more in cruising trim.

I usually run 'er up to WOT to get her moving a bit quicker, then back the throttle down.  I've seen her actually speed up when going from WOT to 1/2-2/3 throttle as the stern lifts and the prop rpms better match speed through the water.

Stock prop for this engine, but it IS a "Sailmaster" outfitted from the factor specifically for use on a sailboat.  I'd guess they matched the prop to the use profile.  But I don't know this for sure.

I burn about a gallon per hour of gasoline (more than I'd like), but that's partly because she's almost always running a bit cold.  A mechanic removed the thermostat last year saying "better burn a bit more fuel than crack a head."  This model outboard is prone to sticky thermostats, and mine was, in fact stuck when he removed it.

I'll throw a bit more fuel on. My old ariel displaced 5200lb...then cruising provisions (remember beer is expensive in Bahamas) 6HP 2stroke,good on fuel.Only complaint was fumes on a run and once wishing for a bit more power into wind/seas. My CP 25, 4500lbs before provisions,6HP 4 stroke, great on fuel and again only once wished for a bit more power. I still feel the compromise between cost/weight/fuel consumption make the small engine worth while. Easy to remove for service too ;)  PS  better prop WAS available for both.

Hmm.  I wonder if my prop isn't making my efficiency worse than it should be.  Or maybe the motor just needs a rebuild.

Well, if I still have money left over after fixing my kitchen, deck, porch, and driveway at home, and adding roller furling, solar panels, more sails, and a dodger to the boat, maybe then I'll consider the four stroke again.

Of course, my current problem is that I don't have enough money to START any of the above projects; which may slow things down a bit.

Check the motor make's web site to see if they have a table for prop size and pitch. With my extra weight I should have less pitch. I cannot max out the RPS where it should be. Not much of a problem.

Hey guys!  Everbody jump up and dow amd clap with joy, I have finally got my 1963 9.5 Johnson Seaking running!  Did it yesterday in a 42 gallon trash can, newplugs got spark changed out the fuel filter which a guy just north of tow happened to have a new one (free).  Went to wal mart ( II hate that place but was able to buy a 12 gallon tank a new fuel line with bulb pump new gas and oil, a lot og tinkering between my neighbor and I and by 2230 last night we had her running like brand new.  I even came home from work tonight and it started on the first pull!  That is really gonna save me a couple G's.  Maybe for electronics.  Just so excited I had to tell you guys.  Marc

Congrats Marc... :)

On the topic of outboards, how do you guys store yours? Between my little apartment, and storage on the boat, I need to figure something out. Right now I keep it tied up and covered on the stern rail. I wish I had the ability to flush it after every use, and then put it on a stand, but its just not an option.

How about just storing it in your apartment, it would probably fit into a closet.  When I'm done working on my motor, it will be taken down into the basement for the winter.  I live in Iowa and snoe flurries are predicted for Thursday night.  Marc

Marc,

I didn't have to hear about the snow comming Thurs. night even though I know about it :'(. Every year the thought of winter comming gets harder and harder to take  >:( :P >:( ...oh well, my rant is over. By the way, I keep my O B on an old two wheeled hand cart that I modified to hold my Johnson 9.9 and keep it in the garage

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

P.S. If Winter is around the corner can Spring be far behind?  ;)

Pappy Jack spring will arrive as soon as saylorville ices out.   Marc    We should try to meet up this winter.

Hi everyone, I am switching over to an outboard, probably a 6hp for my Islander 29.  Just wondering if anyone has any points of consideration they would like to offer up.  For this season I am going to use an adjustable motor mount on the transom. 

I am aware that the resale value would be greatly affected,

I also understand that there are some people that think this is a bad thing to do to a beautiful boat.

I am curious to know about how well they function powering a boat that size in good and bad weather.

To answer the "Why?'s" that will follow.. quite simply I have brought myself to say the most Un - Manly thing a guy can say... " I have to get rid of the motor.. its in the way of my new kitchen"  And its loud, smelly and unreliable to top it off.

Cheers

Paul

The outboard will probably work in calm seas/good weather, but probably not be very useful in heavy seas/bad weather.  Also, make sure you beef up the transom where the outboard mount is going to attach and use a good solid backing plate to spread out the stress.

Of course bad weather typically means you have wind.

Tingira,

  I think it is an excellent option.  Some disagree, however James Baldwin with his multiple trips around the globe and other experience advocates the 'outboard in a well' so weigh his opinion against others you hear.

  The transom mounted outboard has some detractors, which have been discussed at length in this thread (I merged your post into the outboard thread).

  I would suggest reading the thread from the beginning, I think you will find a good amount of information to base you decision on.

Quote from: s/v Faith on February 22, 2009, 06:29:33 PM
Tingira,

  I think it is an excellent option.  Some disagree, however James Baldwin with his multiple trips around the globe and other experience advocates the 'outboard in a well' so weigh his opinion against others you hear.

  The transom mounted outboard has some detractors, which have been discussed at length in this thread (I merged your post into the outboard thread).

  I would suggest reading the thread from the beginning, I think you will find a good amount of information to base you decision on.

Thank you very much, I have been emailing back and forth with James about doing the outboard well thing, I am not ready/ qualified to do that conversion which is why I want to go with the transom mount this year.  I will read the thread, thanks for the help!

I was on the condo docks visiting James and Mei yesterday and looked at the Pearson 30/35 that he had built the well in. It looked original and they have not experienced the prop coming out of the water. They have had some problems with the Mercury though. When you are sailing you can remove the motor  and put the lid on the opening and store the motor on the lid. The problem is they have had some problems with oil draining into the carb. They have tried storing the motor in all 3 positions suggested by Mercury with the same problem. It does let you have a huge cavern of space for storage where the engine was. James used much of this space on Atom for a built in water tank. Dan

Dont waste your time/money building a well.  Buy a mount slap it on the back and go, life is too short.  Best advise I can give(I just did this this week) is to completely block it up before mounting.  You want the cavitation plate to be as low as possible but you still need to be able to reach the motor till comfortably.  I used a 1/2 in steel backing plate and 3/4 inch mount pad made of teak.  Thats 2" total for everything.  I am taking off the horrible plastic pad that is standard and replacing it with a teak one.  The Tohotsu extra long shaft is actually 27" not 25" and every bit helps.  Outboards are a total PIA but it will definately make you a better sailor. A friend of mine has a 6hp on his 33' 16k pound boat and sails more than anyone I know.  He also lives aboard in Friday Harbor Wa lots of tide.  see pictures at boatyardpirates.com under march newsletter.  Ali

this might be slightly off the main conversation on outboards

but what about those new electric trolling motors?  Easy to store, no fuel needs, rechargeable batteries.

though they might only go to 6hp at the moment, but perhaps one could link up two together? they are extremely light.

The problem with electric trolling motors and things like the Torqeedo is range and cost.  They don't have much range, and the costs involved, in having a large enough battery bank, etc, are fairly prohibitive, especially if you're long-term cruising and don't have the option of charging the batteries using shorepower every night.

This looks like to the place to ask this question. 

I have a 9.9 Nissan  2 stroke, which is carborated.  Unfortunately the fuel filter is the style built into the bowl.  I am planning on installing a additional filter on the line that runs from the portable tank to the engine.   Should the filter be ahead of or behind the priming bulb.   Or does it make a difference.

I presume an additional filter is not a bad idea. 

We have ours before the primer bulb because that's where there is room. I doubt it makes much difference.

I do think it's a very good idea. I've had one on all the outboard boats I've owned and we carry several spares.

Ok,

  I have had my Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke for a few months now.  I hate to say it, but I like the Yamaha 6 hp 2 stroke better.

  Take a look at my earlier post (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1032.msg19373#msg19373) for more info on the positives of this motor.  This post is really a 'full disclosure' to share my honest impressions.  I honestly think I may have made an error buying this motor.  :-\

  The Tohatsu has to come out of the water for anything more then a day or two.  The zinc is really really small and erodes fast.  I had left it in for a couple weeks earlier, and had to change the zinc.   :P  This would be less of an issue on a boat with a transom mount where they can pivot the motor out of the water when not in use.

  The Yamaha is a 2 stroke so it has more thrust.  I tried the pricey 'thrust prop' for the Tohatsu... it did make it back better, but it at higher RPM's (too high).   ::)

  I would like to try the Yamaha 6hp 4 stroke.. but I doubt it would fit in an Ariel well.  CJ sent me the measurements for his well and it might make it but I would not want to buy one to find out it did not.

  The Tohatsu that I bought was ~$1450 with the charging option, and I paid another ~$115 for the thrust prop.  I am sorry this is not working out for me, but wanted to post to share for others consideration.

  If anyone is looking for a well cared for Tohatsu 6 with the charging option let me know.  Also, if anyone has successfully mounted a Yamaha 6/8 4 stroke in an Ariel / Commander  well I would like to know of it.

  Finally if anyone comes across a Yamaha 6/8 2 stoke in good shape (20" shaft) I would appreciate your letting me know.

Thanks,

Since CJ was SUPPOSED to send me those measurements ;)  could you post them? as I am doing extensive work on the transom for the propane locker and can enlarge my well if necessary.

I am thinking down the road if I ever have to replace the Honda 5 I have, I might consider the Yamaha

Sure Tim,

  I doubt CJ will mind my sharing the PM he sent me;

QuoteOK- measured the well today- it's roughly 12 inches square, but at the after side I had to cut out a circular place to get the rear of the engine to clear. We raised the engine about 2 inches on the mount and I had to remove a piece of the cowl. It's just a cosmetic part that wraps around the leg- held on by two bolts. Wasn't a major job.

OBTW, how is that Honda 5 working out for you?  I would like to consider that too.

Thanks,

I have only used the engine to push her in and out of Richardson Bay a few times with the standard prop. It moved her fine, but I am getting a displacement prop for it (6.50 I think) which should make it a little easier getting going. 

Quote from: s/v Faith on April 25, 2009, 02:25:36 PM
Sure Tim,

  I doubt CJ will mind my sharing the PM he sent me;

Actually I PM'd a request to Charlie about two weeks ago for those measurements ;)

 I too have a tomato  ;D 6 hp. I bought the extra long shaft/charger combo. The biggest pros from my perspective is the relatively light weight and honestly unbelievable low fuel consumption.Not sure what Craigs is like, but my best tank to date lasted 21hrs.....or a bit over 3hrs to the gallon..With only 2 aboard you have some serious range. I too find the zinc a joke...ya buy them six at a time cause ya know you'l be using them.Not too bad 'out there' but any marina or tight anchorage and away they go.Noise/vibration is far worst than a twin. My initial delight at not believing how little fuel it uses changes while motoring into wind/seas or listening to the singles 'drone' for extended periods. The $1400 +/- for a 25 inch shaft with an alternater is a bargain....but I'll be looking at a 8hp yamaha as well next time.  

 >:( >:(

I'm sorry guys. I KNEW I measured and sent the measurements to SOMEBODY. Call it CRS ( Can't remember S***) or "old timers disease" - Which ever.

I sometimes get a bit behind in replying to PMs and emails.

This past Tuesday we sailed out to Matagorda Island and came home on Thursday- running up the bay in front of 22, gusting 30, sailing on JUST a reefed working jib, logging 6.5 to 7.5

Here's what it looked like ;D

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1240544827.jpg)

(http://data.sailboatowners.com/photos/1240544863.jpg)

Quote from: Frank on April 25, 2009, 02:45:03 PM
I too have a tomato  ;D 6 hp. I bought the extra long shaft/charger combo. The biggest pros from my perspective is the relatively light weight and honestly unbelievable low fuel consumption.Not sure what Craigs is like, but my best tank to date lasted 21hrs.....or a bit over 3hrs to the gallon.......

  I don't know yet.  I used part of a tank for the 10 hour break in and have yet to use half of the 2nd 3 gallons yet.  ;)

Quote from: CharlieJ on April 25, 2009, 03:29:03 PM
>:( >:(

I'm sorry guys. I KNEW I measured and sent the measurements to SOMEBODY. Call it CRS ( Can't remember S***) or "old timers disease" - Which ever.

I sometimes get a bit behind in replying to PMs and emails.

This past Tuesday we sailed out to Matagorda Island and came home on Thursday- running up the bay in front of 22, gusting 30, sailing on JUST a reefed working jib, logging 6.5 to 7.5

Here's what it looked like ;D

What!!! You trying to use going sailing as an excuse  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

CJ...funny how waves never look as big in a picture. Even rough conditions usually look moderate at worst in a still shot. PS...good shot for ...ah... (CRAFT)..whoever was asking about a reefed jib a while back. Guess I'm suffering too

Yeah, something about the camera, whether it is still or video, flattens the waves out a lot...so it never really gives you the impression of how bad it really was at the time.  Maybe a stereo-camera would fix that. :)

Quote from: Frank on April 25, 2009, 04:57:35 PM
CJ...funny how waves never look as big in a picture. Even rough conditions usually look moderate at worst in a still shot. PS...good shot for ...ah... (CRAFT)..whoever was asking about a reefed jib a while back. Guess I'm suffering too

That was me, and kinda funny, I was lamenting the fact I missed last week to do some sailing down in your area also CJ! Glad you had a good trip!

Yeah, I know- that's why I included the shots of the tow coming towards us, and particularly the second one with the spray coming over his front barge.

And in there where we were when I took those shots, it had calmed a good bit, since we were coming more under the lee of the land- at least there were shallows between us and the main bay, so conditions were better.

I'm glad we were running with it though ;)

Hey its been a while since i have been on this site. I have been getting lots of over time and been sailing my Catalina 22 as much as i can . One thing that I have read here and experienced last time i was on the water, Is swamping of outboards when they are transom mounted as mine is.

The last time i was on the water there was 3-4 ft swell and the peaks were about 12-15 ft apart.... such is life on a shallow bay .  The result of the swell was that when the bow would ride up one wave the following wave would get way too close to the outboards air intake which is right at the top on the back of the outboard (tohatsu 9.8 2 stroke ) . these conditions were not all that bad and the possibility of getting caught out in worse is always there .

I can see 2 options to get around this is to close off the original intake and glass in a 65 mm PVC water pipe fitting thus making a snorkel for the outboard raising the intake level by about 1 foot or fitting a flexible hose to the 65 mm fitting and running that back to the transom and picking up air from the cockpit locker .

Hi Matt,

That's interesting.  Did it actually get TO the air intake, or you just noticed it looked like it was getting 'too close?'

I've had my 18 foot sailboat, with transom mounted ob, out in conditions as you describe with none of the trouble you mentioned.

Let's see, I've motored into 3-4 footers on Port Royal Sound (SC) and the water never got close to the power head.

On a lake in a squall I had the engine running and the waves got up to about 5 feet or so and I did not notice an issue.

I'm intrigued by this.  Is the ob perhaps mounted TOO low?   Is the boat perhaps sitting by the stern (a trim issue)?

I'd say that the water was within about 4-6 inches of the intake, which is enough to make me a little concerned . The outboard bracket was on the lowest setting the next one up and the motor wants to cavitate when the bow dips over a wave ( the motor is a long leg ) I think it wasn't so much the wave height that was the issue but the distance between the peaks. that was about 15 foot so when the bow was still on the back of one wave the following wave was rising under the transom.
     The bay that i sail in is reasonably shallow i think in that area it was about 3-4 meters or 10-14 foot or so