I am doing up a list of projects I feel I pretty much have to do if I want to make Shady Lady (1975 Hunter 27) a boat I am able to keep for years to come. My wife wants to keep her and sail to the Bahamas from Nova Scotia in 5 years, which means we are on the same page and I have 90% of the battle won already. The issue is that if I make all the changes/upgrades I want, I am looking at the $20k mark.
Here is what I think I need to do:
Furling gear $1200
Reefer $600
Batteries $400
Solar $1000
Dingy $1500
Dodger $500 or less
Bimini $400
Anchor Gear $800
Auto Pilot $600
Chart Plotter $1500
New Winches $1800
New Sails $3500
For a new total of around $14K which I can certainly live with.
I see my options as doing the work and hoping she lasts as a forever boat, or selling her in a couple years and buying a little bit larger boat (32-35' range) and dumping as much or more into that boat to make it "How I want it".
So on a 35 year old boat, that I love and is structurally sound, am I crazy to want to put that much work/$$$ into her?
here is a thread with pictures of Shady Lady.
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2409.20
Personally I wouldn't spend that much on a boat of that make and year. For $20,000 there are pre outfitted boats for the same price. Lurk around ebay for cheaper gear
Quote from: Greenman on September 15, 2009, 07:37:24 AM
So on a 35 year old boat, that I love and is structurally sound, am I crazy to want to put that much work/$$$ into her?
There is no objective answer to this question; it's all a matter of personal taste, opinion and goals.
So, my opinion (since you asked): the short answer is "no," you are not crazy.
(1) You said you want to keep this boat long term. So, many of those costs will be spread over the long term. Perhaps think of them as investment in achieving your goals?
If you pay this amount for this equipment list at purchase time, it is certainly possible you'd have to borrow the money to buy a boat outfitted as you wish. By purchasing a boat (presumably for a lower price) and you refitting/outfitting over a period of years, you avoid paying interest on the equipment upgrades you describe.
(2) Quite a few of those costs are expenses you would have to spend on ANY boat (that is used, anyway). I get a bit irked sometimes with the notion of "buy new, ready to go rather than put money into a project boat," simply because UPGRADES (not talking about repairs) are the same either way. A fridge, furling, dodger, bimini, dink, batteries, auto-pilot and chain all cost the same whether on a new boat or one 40+ years old.
The only difference is WHEN you spend the money (at purchase time in the price of the boat or after during refitting).
(3) Who cares if it gets you the boat you want and where you want to be in following your dreams/goals?
I don't know what you paid for the boat, but I think by most modern metrics, $25,000-$50,000 is a fairly small price to pay, in total, for a boat capable of doing the things you want to do. Take a gander at "new" boat price tags or late year models with the equipment list you describe.
Just my opinions, again, since you asked.
I am slowly refitting a 79' 27 ft hunter. I found that if you spread out the cost over a period of time and the boat is paid for then it doesn't seem like the cost is prohibitive. I went down to the coast and looked a several boats that seemed like they meet requirements that I wanted and realized that the boats for the most part are in the same shape as mine and all will require work/cost in the long run. My conclusion was I have a good base boat to start with and again It was paid for so no payments.
Quote from: Greenman on September 15, 2009, 07:37:24 AM
...am I crazy to want to put that much work/$$$ into her?...
This question seems like asking inmate in an asylum if they are crazy. By any "rational" standard we have probably all spent a crazy amount on our boats.
That said I will offer up my opinion on crazy spending on boats, with a caveat. My views are very much outside the norm and often quite pointed (read irritating and offensive).
While I agree that it can cost just as much to upgrade a newer boat as an older boat, I don't think that all boats are created equal. And some are more worthy of excessive upgrading than others.
In a past life I trained Border Collies as sheep herding dogs. And time and time again people would buy local puppies to save a couple hundred dollars. Pups from the top breeders and trainers across the country would only be a small amount more and the cost to raise and train these pups was exactly the same.
When we would get together and chat we would often talk about the different lines of dogs and the characteristics we liked and say "I would like to get a pup from that line one day". But some would forget this and buy the cheap easy to get pup and then put all that money into training and food and vet etc.
I sort of think that this happens with old sailboats as well. And once we buy them they become great by definition. And the money we spend on them makes us defend them as wonderful. Just like that pup that came home for the county fair. And I love puppies, who doesn't, and I love sailing. Sailing in any boat is better than not sailing at all (there may be an exception here or there).
But If I am going to spend crazy amounts of time and money on a sailboat I personally would like to start with a great pedigree. An even among great designer's there were certain designs that excelled in their class.
The hard part is finding objective information because as owner's we may have a slight bias. And this was the case with Border Collies as well. But you could find the cream at the top if you looked and listened hard enough.
That and ignored the siren song of a box of puppies at the fair.
I'm posting this while sailing eastward on Santa Rosa sound, sitting in the companionway while Laura steers.
Tehani was built in1961, so today she's 47 years old, and 5 years new since we totally refurbished her from a junker.
Do I thik you are crazy? Nope.
But I do think some of the things you listed can be had more cheaply, or are mot really needed.
I'm not a fan of roller furling at all for example and our two jibs only ran a grand total. The working jib has reef points and reffs to storm jib size.
If you MUST have lazy jacks, the line and blocks cost far less than a kit.
Just two examples.
I agree with CJ on things could be done a bit cheaper - my dinghy - a small inflateable that's virtually new cost me around $400, and the Honda 2 hp 4 stk was $400. My CDI roller furling was around $500, etc. And spreading the costs over a number of years makes the economic impact to your wallet a bit more tolerable.
Ya, I went high on most of my estimates, I agree I can likely get a Dingy for closer to $1500, I am not certain on the Reefer, but I do need to keep the Admirals insulin cold. I am quite handy with a sewing maching so I will be making my own Dodger/Bimini etc. The boat in the slip next to mine has the blocks/line lazy jack system i might try out and I have hanked on jibs now, but I was thinking about ease of "single handing" with the roller furling. I personally have no issues with my current Hanked on jibs.
I am just thinking worst case scenario, but I really really like this boat, and so does Laura. She's actually the one who wants to do a refit and keep this boat rather then buying newer/bigger. Which for me is a great place to begin from.
As for the pedigree, i know Hunters are sometimes frowned upon, but I think it will b
make a great Bahamas boat due to its extra ordinarily shallow draft. Great for gunkholing.
One thing I can tell ya is that you will probably spend too much and take along too much. After 25 yrs of sailing, we went 'cruising' for the 1st time in 02. Spent and took way too much on the 1st boat. Read CJ's posts. I've lived between 3 and 4 mths yearly on a boat out cruising since fall of 02 and CJ's posts reflect what I feel are reasonable. My boat now has a main with 2 deep(er than normal) reef points, jib with 1 reef point and a nylon 150,a dodger (must) a sunshade (must) icebox (no refridg) the biggest anchor Judy can haul up (22lb delta fastset) 2 secondary anchors (don't cheapout on ground tackle) an inexpensive bidata ST40 (water temp as a bonus),compass, fixed VHF, 2 handhelds, 2 cheapy GPS and a 6hp outboard for a 4600lb boat. We have a few left over from 02 guides and paper charts but the chartbooklets rule. Two yrs ago we upgraded to a 9.5ft dingy($1100)and a new 3.5hp 2 stroke @ $600. Life need not be complicated.
My thoughts exactly. After 5 years of cruising on my West Wight Potter 19 I have learned how little one needs, both Frank and CJ have it down. When I move up to the Ariel I do not expect to take much more, but it will probably be easier to find it all. ;)
Couple more points -
Sailrite sells a video on how to make a bimini. Laura has made three of them for us.
The first two used EMT tubing for a frame- I bent it using a regular tubing bender I borrowed. We made two cruises to Fl with that then I used it as a pattern for a good one.
Second, my Laura is 5'2" and single hands just fine with yanked on jibs, including reefing the one. So don't worry over much about RF. It's a nicety, not a requirment. In fact we both feel hanked ons are less trouble to use.
My last couple of boats have all had roller furlering. I getting to be less and less of a fan. It seems they get stuck when you need them the most- you have to take the jib down in a hurry because a storm is coming in fast. I broached when one got stuck, and it hasn't really worked well since. And it was an expensive Harken furler. So yeah, hanked is looking better all the time.
With two jibs (and the ability to reef one) it seems you could also sail a yardarm too. You ever try that CJ?
Newt (and others),
Might take a look at this thread to discuss the relative merits of roller /hank on.
Hanks or Roller: Question for the Hank-On Crowd (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=113.0)
Greenman,
First, a couple of things that I was told that have been VERY helpful.
1. Do not EVER make a list, or keep account of how much you have spent. It can make it truly uncomfortable. You are investing in your quality of life (a great salesman line) not in equipment.
2. Tell yourself that it is 'not real money'. ;) Not sure how this works... but for instance I spent MONTHS debating over a digital camera (for ~$250) but did not hesitate for a second to drop a grand on a new head and solar panel in the last month. ;D
To be perfectly frank, the Hunter would not be MY choice. I like the layout, lots of space and stowage. Great for coastal cruising but a bit too beamy for off shore (IMHO). I like a lot of things about the boat. I have one gripe with the design, and that is the rudder / ruddershaft. They are known for being less forgiving of groundings then other similar designs. It is funny, the Pearson 30 has a much scarier design (big dog leg that just seems like it wants to bend / break... BUT it but does not break and jam as often. Not sure why Hunter used (uses) a hollow aluminum tube for a rudder shaft... but they have done so for many years. That said, many thousands of them are afloat with the original rudder / shaft having not had a problem. With proper caution
I see no reason why your boat would not be suited for your plans.WRT your list;
QuoteHere is what I think I need to do:
Furling gear $1500 (maybe)
LazyJacks $300
Sails $3,500
Spinnaker $750
Engine $1000 (Recondition) - $5500 or more (if I go new)
Refer $1,500 (Maybe)
Batteries $400
Solar/Wind $1,500
Dingy $3,500
Dodger $800
Bimini $400
Chain $300
Auto Pilot $800
If the items on the list were keeping you from going... cross off the entire list. ;)
Furling gear - I love it. I would not put off leaving if I did not have it though.
Lazy Jacks - I have full batten sails. No real need for lazy jacks, but did not miss them with my old partial batten sail.
Sails - New sails are a good investment if you are planning to keep the boat. What is the issue with what you have?
Spinnaker - Don't use one. Don't see the need with your stated cruising goals.
Engine - Not sure what issues you have, if the A-4 you can rebuild for less. If the Yanmar (1GM10 IIRC) that was OEM for your boat I am not sure I understand what you would want to change... ???
Refer - I like my Engle, SMALLER IS BETTER. I hear good things about the Sterling coolers, but think SMALL. My wife asked for something cool to drink, we maybe kept some small food there for convenience, but the fridge need not be shore sized.
Batteries - Look at the thread below, figure your energy budget. Probably be happy with about half that money.
Solar... look at this thread. http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=33 (//http://Power:%20Solar,%20wind,%20lights,%20towed....???)
Dingy - Have heard good things about the Saturn 260. ~$700. That and a small outboard.. maybe half of your number.
Dodger / Bimini - If I had to I would sooner go without a motor then a dodger. The Bimini is good gear if in southern climes in the summer. Sail-Rite has a kit, if I had not left it till last, I would do that.
Chain - & GOOD anchor. Don't skimp here. Manson, anchor Latina, whatever...
If you search on the various topics you will find lots of info on each of these things.
Whatever it takes... do go. You will not regret it.
Thanks all,
My issues with the engine, is really that the boat really needs to be rewired, I will do that this winter, then address the motor, it actually runs great, but the wiring issue has my wife thinking it's suspect. It is hte original SVE-8 which means parts are nearly impossible to get. Nearly.
I do NEED a reefer of some sort, even if it's tiny, my wife is diabetic and needs to keep her insulin cold.
The sails are also original, 1975 sails, they work for the Halifax harbour, but I would not want to leave for a long time without a new suit.
I have not made up my mind about the Spinnaker, I love sailing with one on other people boats, but you are correct, I do not absolutly need one.
I did actually just find the saturn inflatable webpage last night. I think thats how I will go.
Thanksagain for all the advice.
Quote from: Greenman on September 16, 2009, 05:17:31 AM
I do NEED a reefer of some sort, even if it's tiny, my wife is diabetic and needs to keep her insulin cold.
Sounds like an Engel will be perfect. Small size, low current draw.
But, I'll throw this out there just for consideration. Don't underestimate the utility of a well designed (read that as "beefed up from factory designed") passive ice box. A reasonably sized well-frozen chunk of block ice should last WEEKS at a time and requires no amps to run on board. Resupply is the down size, though.
Quote
I have not made up my mind about the Spinnaker, I love sailing with one on other people boats, but you are correct, I do not absolutly need one.
I've never sailed with a spinnaker, but I consider one not only unnecessary but unwanted on a short-handed boat. From my research into looking for good downwind/light air sail choices, I personally think a better choice (for us, anyway) is a drifter. Useful far higher into the wind than a spin and almost as low - so my read is that it is a far more versatile sail.
That's just my thought. YMMV.
Quote
I did actually just find the saturn inflatable webpage last night. I think thats how I will go.
We have a Saturn 290 and really like it. We've given it some hard use just as a 'pleasure' boat (exploring, gunkholing, joyriding and fishing). I put a 2 HP Suzuki 4 stroke on it and get about 5 kts or so with my two children and I aboard...actually faster than when I am aboard alone (better weight distribution).
Not Hypalon, though, if you care about that sort of thing. I'm not into the old Hypalon vs PVC debate; I just don't leave it in the sun unnecessarily.
Agree on the drifter. We left our assymetrical at home more from lack of room than anything else. A poles out genny does pretty good and we can dump the main and put the wj out the other side too.
We bought brand new Achilles (hypalon) for 1100. 7'6" one. Our 2.2 hp pushes it around just fine. It'll plane with Laura aboard but not both of us- still does 5.5 though.
Is this the model of Engel you have? It looks quite promising size wise. I may see if I can find one locally to check out.
http://www.coolerdirect.com/engel-12v-cooler-12-volt-freezer-3865-prd1.htm
This seems to be the only model locally available today, although I am sure the 2 Chandleries here could bring in the smaller version.
http://ca.binnacle.com/product_info.php?products_id=3709
Big Price difference though.
No, I have the model 27 (http://www.coolerdirect.com/engel-12v-cooler-12-volt-freezer-3868-prd1.htm). It is a 22qt model and I settled on it since it fit the space allowed. If I were to buy another I would probably get the next size smaller, or the first one you posted. We were happy with it, but the long tall profile was a little awkward for where I have it (in the V-berth). The next smaller model is the same, only shorter.
This;
(http://www.coolerdirect.com/images_products/12v-cooler-engel-12-volt-b3867.jpg)
vs
this;
(http://www.coolerdirect.com/images_products/12v-cooler-engel-12-volt-b3868.gif)
Really don't need the extra space, at least we did not. The main job of the reefer was to keep a few water bottles cold (we like the vitamin water bottles, we re-used the same set for ~9 months). We bought blocks of cheese in the Bahamas that would start to mold pretty fast if left out. The occasional left over or what-not. Did not buy or store any sides of beef, or have misc jars of taco sauce and misc like the home fridge.
I definitely would agree with most of what S/V Faith has said, excepting the point about the lazy jacks. I have the same Engel refrigerator that he does and it is well worth it. I have a 130 watt solar panel mounted and that is enough to keep the refrigerator running and the batteries fairly well topped off.
I've written about solar power on boats on my blog and would recommend you read the article, which you can find HERE (http://blog.dankim.com/2009/02/02/solar-power-on-boats/). I think that solar makes more sense if you have a limited budget than does mixing solar and wind. I'd point out that a good battery monitor is also a very worthwhile addition to any boat's electrical system.
I've also written about how I setup my lazy jacks and main sail furling setup on the blog, and you can read about it HERE (http://blog.dankim.com/2008/06/21/lazy-jacks/).
Decent ground tackle is key. You'll really want at least two decent anchors with decent rodes on them. My primary is a Rocna 15, which weighs 33 lbs., with 60' of chain 5/16" G43 chain, 200' of 5/8" octo-plait line and a Crosby load-rated 3/8" shackle. The entire setup cost less than $1000. The secondary is a Delta Fast Set 22 lb. with 30' 5/16" chain and 180' of 5/8" three-strand nylon.
BTW, the reason I went with a Rocna over the Manson Supreme is the because of the quality of the design. The Manson Supreme's fluke is made of two thinner sheets of steel, which are edge-welded then have the edge weld ground down to shape the fluke, has the stock welded to one plate only, and then is hot-dip galvanized. This means that the area between the plates is not galvanized and the only thing holding the stock to the larger plate is the ground down edge welding... The fluke on the Rocna is a single, much heavier steel plate, and doesn't have the inherent design defects the Manson Supreme has IMHO.
One thing about dinghy motors... it is easy to get one that is too large to be really useful. IMHO, most people don't require a lot of HP for their dinghies, and usually buy too much engine. I'd highly recommend getting something like the 3.5 HP Tohatsu that both Connie and I have bought. It's a solid little engine and weighs about 40 lbs. That's a relatively manageable weight for dink motor, and light enough that your wife may be able to handle it alone. Going any larger generally results in the engine weighing 70 or more pounds... Now, if you want to know how well the 3.5 Tohatsu works, my friend used it on a 10' 6" RIB with three people aboard (about 600 lbs. of people, since none of them are small), and was able to move in 20+ knots of wind.
I split the next few (anchor related) posts off and moved them here (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=385.msg27605#msg27605) so as not to sidetrack this thread.
I'm also gutting and refitting a '77 H27'...but it isn't costing me ANYwhere that much.
If you like the boat and want to travel south in her I don't think you're crazy. However your list can be either shortened or modified in my opinion. Lazyjacks can be handy but can be made rather than bought. If you need new sails the main could be purchased new but any headsails could be bought used. A production boat like yours should be quite easy to find headsails for at Bacons or any of the other used sail places near you. A lot of people sell older sails that have had little use. I like the Engels portable fridge idea and will probably purchase one and use my icebox (very uninsulated from the manufacturer) as dry storage. Roller furling isn't necessary. Reef points in a jib are easy to deal with. Another solution I will probably install is a solent stay. This is a stay just inside the forestay - maybe 5" or 6". It parallels the forestay so doesn't need runners. This lets you sail wing and wing easily with 2 jibs (spinnaker not needed) and if offshore where tacking is not as frequent as inshore you couls have a storm jib ready to go. This stay is attached to the bow fitting with a release lever so it can be removed easily and tied off at the mast. Invest in good anchoring gear - AdriftArSea's advice is good both on that and solar. I'd skip a wind gen and go with just solar. What engine do you have? Unless it's a disaster I'd rebuild rather than replace. Get a shop manual and do it yourself - saves money and you learn the engine whicj will pay off when you're down south. Good batteries like Trojan T-105 (x2) are a good investment as is a battery monitor like the Xantrex link series. You're not leaving yet so I'd keep my eye out for a good used dinghy - you never know what might turn up. Then buy a new or newer small outboard for it.
Brian
It depends on how good of shape the boat is in and where you are planning on going. All of this stuff adds up. My list was well over 500 items. I had a safe 5000 mile coastal voyage with only 3 breaks that was easily fixed.
I spent more than what has been said. If you are going coastal or upper Bahamas you do not need that much and you will motor a lot and anchor most of the time. AND you can get parts easily and can get help!
Find out how to do your on survey, How things look bad, and do that.
You can design and make your own lazy jacks for a lot less than the purchase of a new kit. All that's really involved is a couple of small pad eyes on the mast and one on the boom (more if you intend more "web" to your design), some line, some bronze, SS or nylon rings and a cleat. There are several different websites that can give you design ideas.
Our boat, Fiddlestix (a Rob Roy 23 yawl) was already set up with the pad eyes on the mast/boom and boom cleat - all I had to add was the line and a couple of bronze rings. Even adding the eyes would not have pushed the cost up much. The lazy jacks are nice to have in heavy weather, but frankly I'm finding I don't use them too much - usually leave them tied off forward at the mast. We didn't have lazy jacks on our Catalina 30 and didn't particularly miss them. First thing we do when we drop the main is to get a sail tie around the sail about 2/3 of the way down the boom from the mast, that gets the sail out of the cockpit, and we clean things up from there. Didn't have much of a problem with the sail getting in the water with either boat.
Overall, we've found lazy jacks nice to have but not essential.