There is a thread titled "Kiss principle --what do you think is necessary" (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1467.0) where lists of items were prepared of things folks suggested as necessary for a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) boat.
Maybe the thinking behind KISS ought better to be explored with the list of what we have found NOT to be necessary.
Here are a few items I looked at that I do not believe are necessary. This is just my current list. I don't believe that anyone can define KISS for anyone else, and there are arguments for some of these things but it might be helpful to discuss it;
1.) Sat Phone....
2.) SSB or Ham transmitter. While the idea of communications while underway seems nice, the added cost and complexity, along with the burden of keeping in touch are issues.
3.) Fancy features on a VHF radio.
4.) Microwave, breadmaker, blender, trash compactor, or other condo type appliances.
5.) Hot water heater.
6.) Any device or software on a laptop that makes one boot it up while underway, or rely on it for navigation. They are just too darn power hungry, and unreliable for practical use on a small boat. Email, and internet are great on the hook, but are best considered luxuries.
7.) Chart plotter.
8.) Electric auto pilot. While nice to have, they fail far too often to rely on. Lashing the tiller, sheet to tiller, or windvane is a MUCH better answer then a device with such a high failure rate.
9.) AIS
10.) Radar.
11.) Instruments. Other then a compass and a depth sounder, I do not see the need for electronic devices to tell you the wind speed, direction, water temp, etc.
12.) Electric windlass.
13.) Air conditioning.
14.) Spreader lights.
I have some things aboard that violate KISS, and each one brings it's own cost in terms of cost, maintenance, and most importantly TIME. Things like refrigeration make other things necessary but in the balance have been worth the effort. I do believe that KISS is a worthwhile principal and worth pursuing.
What items have YOU used or looked at, that you decided to live without?
everything you wrote is right on the principle. Though the kind of cruising has to be determined too. Is the boat your only home ? Are you sailing long distances for the rest of your life....
I found out (the hard way) that a radar can save your life,
Though electric autopilot have their downside, and are not a necessity I agree, it could be very useful and very enjoyable.
electric windlass of course on a small boat, they seem unnecessary, but here too, I have been in situation where it has same my back and may be the boat...
I believe cruising have to stay simple stupid, yes, but you do not have to suffer either, so everything that can bring a little comfort does not have to be banished.
@ Faith
I agree on all of those except a radar... depending on where you actually sail. Fog is NOT fun. Radar can be a great safety device. AIS would certainly come in handy, but a necessity - No way. the same goes for water makers in my book
My list would be pretty consistent with yours Craig.
Moving from a 19' cruising boat to the Ariel, makes it pretty easy to KISS.
In fact because power consumption is the most limiting factor, I opted for a simple digital sounder instead of the multi-function fish finder on the P19.
Another would be a built in sound system, I have opted for a battery operated multi-band radio for listening pleasure.
My electronics consists of a hand held GPS interfaced with a fixed VHF and a digital depth sounder.
I do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.
Quote from: Tim on June 10, 2008, 11:12:34 AM
My list would be pretty consistent with your Craig.
I do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.
Ok, so that no one can define KISS for anyone else, do we agree on that ? There is also a very big difference. If you go sailing for a week-end, or a week even a month and can come back to your home and all its nice conveniences, no problem you can endure to KISS. When you have nothing else than the boat, it is a little bit different my friends. Keep it simple, yes, 100 %. Keep it simple stupid.... do not know. I have an I Pod, does that agree with the principle ? (after all, I have to recharge the darn thing every 2 days,) ;)
Quote from: Manannan on June 10, 2008, 11:37:15 AM
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Ok, so that no one can define KISS for anyone else, do we agree on that ?
In the original post I said;
QuoteI don't believe that anyone can define KISS for anyone else
QuoteI have a......, does that agree with the principle ?
Again, it is your boat, and your call. I would be interested to hear what you have decided you did not need.... not to take issue with what you do.
Tim said;
QuoteI do think that off-shore cruising would up the ante, but for coastal cruising one doesn't need much.
Sure, where you cruise, how you cruise, crew, even the boat you are on will all influence the decisions.... I agree.
I guess KISS means different things.
A few questions -
Does it cost more in the long run not to have it?
Is your pleasure increased a lot by having it?
Can you afford it?
Is it a needed safety item in YOUR area?
Fridge? Well I just got a 19 liter Waeco fridge. Sure makes it nicer for one person not to have to go to the store or buy smaller items to use every day. A power hog at 3 amps pre hour.
Chart plotter/GPS saves me money on gas and time. I also get locations of gas and food from it. Mine has MX weather which is a nice safety feature when a long aways from things.
Would I have gone cruising without them, SURE!!
Great List and great topic.
Sorry so long, but here goes.
On the philosophy of what you need vs what you don't need (comfort or real necessity), I think part of it is how you have lived your life ashore. For example, grad school taught me to live with VERY little in the way of luxuries and how to eat very cheaply. I was well below the US Poverty Line for Five Years - yet still had some fun and did some things that made very solid memories. Another time, I lived a year in a 19 foot camper. I know from personal experience that I don't really need most of the stuff we call "necessity."
"What You Need" is thus purely psychological. What I am comfortable doing without will make many others cringe, and what I really want to have along will make some sneer in derision. As you guys have said, it is truly a personal decision.
What IS a necessity to me, then? Time. Freedom. Being Left Alone.
Now, what are the things I choose to do without? Craig's List (hehe) sums it up pretty good for me. I do shun refrigeration, however, partly due to the power requirements.
As I've stated before, my "Theoretical Ideal Cruising Boat" would be:
Engine-less
Electric-less
Propane-less
Unfortunately, the first one is out since to do that (at this point anyway), I would also have to cruise wife-less, and that's not an option for me. The others, she couldn't care less about.
I've toyed with the idea of going head/holding tank-less. The idea of some of the more "natural" disposal methods talked and read about are appealing - to a point. However, this is one of those areas where I examine the simple vs convenience trade-off and say "well, having a head+tank makes some sense." Keep in mind, we are a family of four, and some of the "alternative" methods could get quite labor intensive.
I was until last year GPS-less. I like the idea of cruising without a GPS for TON of reasons, not the least of which is to put my thumb in the eye of everyone who says it is a necessity. Now, I do carry a hand-held Garmin 72, but it does not stay on. I feel like my sextant skills are "competent" but not exemplary, and ded reckoning/pilotage serves well for coastal cruising.
Definitely don't and won't carry a chartplotter. Heck, I barely turn the GPS on anyway.
The only VHF I carry is again a hand held. Don't really have a desire to add a fixed unit. May someday, but it is WAY WAY down the priority list. SSB receiver (for weather forecasts) would come before that, and that's not a super high priority, either.
I also don't have, and won't add, a fixed sound system to the boat. Actually, and I guess I'm in the minority here, I don't really care to listen to music while underway. I guess it's okay while motoring. At anchor, maybe, some, a little. Really, I look to sailing to GET AWAY from the civilization that makes me find it hard to breathe. I really, really LOVE music, but could find my fix in watching live musicians perform when in port.
On music, though, I will say that I do find an MP3 player and portable 12 V speakers to be a nice (movable, removable) addition. I listen to some music sometimes while at the boat on the mooring. We brought such a set-up to Charleston last year, and in a 9 day trip did not turn it on even once. Did not even hook it up.
No way, no how on tv or dvd player. Ditto reasons above. Now, *IF* I carry a laptop, it would be nice to have a dvd capable laptop for the occasional movie in port (my current lappy does not have a dvd player).
My children are home-schooled, which means just about EVERYTHING we do is "schoolwork" in some way, shape or form. When we are underway, there's learning opportunities everywhere. Also, they help with the boat handling. I don't really want them glued to a TV, subjected to the commercialization and materialism that entails. Ditto commercial radio. Blue sky, fish, birds, trees, other boats, our boat, fluids (wind, water), etc are, to me (and them) far more fascinating than "artificial" entertainment.
Our boat does not have, and will not have, "running" water. We use the hand-pump sprayers for pressurized water needs. We use a hand-pump for the galley sink. I know a foot pump would be more convenient, but I have not figured out the placement, yet.
My boat was wired for 110 VAC by a previous owner. I abhor that on both principle and for practical reasons. When the boat was kept in a marina slip, having 110 VAC keeping the batts topped off was nice, but to me it's just not worth the other hassles it introduces. Overseas, I'd need transformers and other gadgets to use it anyway. I will rip all that out SOMEDAY, but this project is not a high priority.
I don't have roller furling and have no desire to add it. I don't fault those that choose to have roller furling headsails, but it's just not for me/us. Also, no lazy jacks for the main at the present time. May add some at some point. Becky saw some on another boat last year and liked the idea.
I'm going to catch heck for these next two, perhaps, but I don't carry a liferaft. Probably never will. They seem like a HUGE cost (initial outlay + maintenance) and have significant storage requirements.
I also don't currently carry an EPIRB. I probably won't. Without a liferaft, what good is an EPIRB? If we're not abandoning the mother boat, we probably should not be setting off the EPIRB.
No LifeSling aboard, either. At present, anyway. Been toying with the idea of getting one. I'd be interested to hear comments from anyone WHO HAS ONE and HAS USED IT in an emergency situation.
No Radar with no desire to add it, again, due to cost and powering requirements. As for sailing in Fog, I've done that (with no GPS...visibility was about 100 ft, so I know it can be worse).
I'll probably think of more later, but that's the gist of the big stuff.
Not a simple question. Not simple at all. If you went to the barest minimum, what you need is shelter, water, food, and a way to move your boat. Even maps and a compass can be considered luxuries (I believe some folks have crossed oceans without either one ... crazy at it may seem to us).
To even begin to answer this I think I need to categorize the sailing. For me, I am almost always short or single handed. Forgive all the commentary. It is in my nature.
| Object | Day Sailing | Coastal Cruising | Long Distance Off Shore | Comments |
| Sat Phone | No | No | No | If I had folks tracking my progress back home I would need something. I'd rather buy a sat phone than have an unnecessary search and rescue started. Plus, I really don't want to cause any additional stress to loved ones. Ah, the price of family. Perhaps the new Spot Satellite tracker would suffice. It would certainly be cheaper. |
| Fancy features on a VHF radio | No | No | no | I assume you mean something in addition to DSC? I don't even know if you can still buy a non DSC radio anymore. |
| Microwave, breadmaker, blender, trash compactor, or other condo type appliances | No | No | No | Good grief, is this a joke? Seriously, though, some small microwaves are becoming practical for small boats, I'm told. Certainly not a necessity, unless you where living at a dock and not going anyplace (at which point your boat becomes a floating condo). |
| Hot water heater | No | No | No | Again, only if living at a dock. If I had a shower (which I don't) |
| Any device or software on a laptop that makes one boot it up while underway, or rely on it for navigation. | No | No | No | Laptops are great tools; but are too fragile and power hungry to take a necessary spot on most small boats. |
| Chart plotter | No | No | No | I like paper charts. Besides, you can't trust electronics |
| Electric auto pilot | No | Yes | No | Having sailed single handed up and down the Chesapeake without an autopilot, I can tell you it is tiring. For long offshore trips a windvane would be better. Some type of self steering is necessary, in my book, for anything more than day sails or very short cruises |
| AIS | No | Maybe | Yes | As a single hander I would need to do whatever I can to supplement the necessarily shoddy watchkeeping that would occur on a long passage (offshore or especially coastal). This is cheaper and less prone to failure than radar. Uses considerably less electricity, too. Would go without if it didn't exist; but prudent since it does exist. |
| Radar | No | No | No | I would probably change this to necessary if I sailed in areas that tend to be often socked in with fog. Sailing in fog is the scariest thing I have done. |
| Instruments. Other then a compass and a depth sounder | No | No | No | A handheld wind speed meter would be nice for story telling purposes. |
| Electric windlass | No | No | No | For my small boat, never. If I was far afield a manual windlass might come in handy. Not necessary, though (yay for small boats!) |
| Air conditioning | No | No | No | In a small boat only really practical if you have a generator (yuck) or are tied to shore. For me, certainly not a necessity. If my wife comes along, the rules might change (the price of marriage) |
| Spreader lights | No | No | No | Never used them. I guess they would be handy for changing headsails or something; but then you would lose your night vision. |
| Spot | No | No | Yes | Ah, finally. A reasonably priced satellite tracking tool. Not necessary for me; but family? Again, that price of family. |
| Roller Furling | No | No | No | It would be nice. If I bought a boat that came with roller furling/reefing I would enjoy it. I doubt I'd go out of my way to install it though. Definitely not Necessary. |
| GPS | No | Yes | Yes | GPSes are cheap (handheld) now-a-days, very useful, a fun to play with. If you couldn't get one for sub $150 I'd probably say Unnecessary; but the price/utility ratio pushes this into my must have list. Just a simple GPS, though. Anything more is luxury. (If I where to head off shore I guess it would be prudent to learn celestial. Man, those sextants are expensive, though) |
| Pressure Water | No | No | No | If my wife was aboard she would appreciate it. But then she would probably run the tanks dry the first night. Not necessary. |
Quote from: s/v godot on June 10, 2008, 01:58:09 PM
Even maps and a compass can be considered luxuries (I believe some folks have crossed oceans without either one ... crazy at it may seem to us).
Very true - the Polynesians navigated without either for centuries - long crossings on dug-out canoe and similar "lightweight" craft.
Seamanship of the highest order, and we could learn a LOT from them and their KISS-y ways.
By the way, on another note, could we adopt Keep It Simple, Sailor, rather than Stupid for our purposes?
Hey, maybe it's just semantics, but I think it is a fair distinction and one that may help to emphasize that if Sailor A chooses to outfit his boat one way, perhaps against the mainstream, it's not really "stupid."
Just a thought.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 10, 2008, 02:25:24 PM
By the way, on another note, could we adopt Keep It Simple, Sailor, rather than Stupid for our purposes?
Hey, maybe it's just semantics, but I think it is a fair distinction and one that may help to emphasize that if Sailor A chooses to outfit his boat one way, perhaps against the mainstream, it's not really "stupid."
Just a thought.
I like that ;D grog on you!
Just want to remind you that if they had the choice, (Polynesians, Vikings and the rest) they would have chosen to have maps and compass. On long crossings anyway. Do not forget how many of them probably got lost at sea. If we go this route, sails could be considered luxury.... ;)
Ok.. lashes for me I guess ;D But I agree on one thing definitely : less drop the stupid !!
I'm in agreement with Craigs list.Had a chartplotter..didn't use.Much prefer charts on the bridgedeck for the 'bigger picture'.Hate anything that uses power...but really like an autohelm...between breakdowns (Craig IS correct..they fail often) I use a $99 garmin..ain't fancy but will show ya where you are (I couldn't even do a waypoint till last march) I like the cheapy butane stoves and the old force 10 rd BBQ's. I still like hank on sails. I did buy the ST40 combo...cheap/small and works (depth/knotmeter/log and water temp) I use solar yard lights at night (I know..not legal) I don't even use ice, but have a small engel (.7amp) when wanting a treat.Still like a reefing jib..saves $$ and space.Use those cheapy crank-up flashlights a lot.great on the dingy and onboard.
Great detailed list Adam about the only thing I disagree with is where you say that a handheld windmeter would be good for storytelling, I think the lack of one allows for a greater range ;) ;D
I would say that if you were in Canadian waters and stopped by the coast guard, and didn't have adequate charts, you would have some trouble on your hands. As for no dingy, especially with a family on board, not a good plan, unless you really don't leave the dock. as the word says KISS, keep it simple stupid, it goes with out saying somethings are safety related. Its okay to be home schooled, but when does the street smart training start, in order to fit in with the general public.
Quote from: Artful on June 10, 2008, 09:16:11 PM
Its okay to be home schooled,
Thanks for your approval. ;)
Quote
but when does the street smart training start, in order to fit in with the general public.
If you are talking about social development, you might be interested to know that recent research has shown that home schooled children demonstrate HIGHER social development than US Public School children. This research was done by a group who set out to prove the opposite conventional wisdom, by the way. Yes, I've got published, refereed journal citations to back that statement up, but I'll have to look them up. PM me if you are interested.
Choosing to home school, like choosing to sail far on a small boat, often invites criticism. I guess any time we choose to swim against the current, either with our boats in particular or with our lives in general, others find it necessary to point out the error of our ways.
This sort of thing is, I believe, exactly what this thread is about.
Ok, what I see and read here, is that everybody agree on the principle and I guess it is why we are on this site isn't it ?
For the rest, there is no rules to tell someone how to live his life, raise his kids or outfit his boat. What I see coming up is endless polemics about what is a KISS ''way of life'' or not. In general, I do not like rules, and do not like being a sheep... We still have the right to debate, if we keep an open mind and respect someone else ideas and way of life.
Quote from: Manannan on June 11, 2008, 05:00:43 AM
What I see coming up is endless polemics about what is a KISS ''way of life'' or not.
Interesting. What I see for the most part is each of us answering the question that was asked:
"What is KISS for
me, on
MY boat."
I think it is fair to offer some explanation as to WHY these decisions were reached, and maybe to defend them
just a little if someone disagrees. That's how we all learn from each other - someone may well offer something new or a new way to look at things.
I see a distinct line, however, when sentences contain phrases like:
"What you should do/have"
"X is stupid"
"Everyone should"
"How can you not"
and other such absolutes that infringe on each charting their own course (aboard or in life).
I believe that in many cases, such opinions of self-superiority (assuming one has all the answers) indicate a closed mind. There are enough sailing sites populated by folks with that attitude out there.
One thing that unites the members of this board is not only our view on "small boats," but also our method of solving problems. This is very much an "engineering style" board. Ideas are floated in a freestyle or brainstorming fashion, some are tried, some things fail, improvements are made, tried again. There's no fear of failure or admitting "I was wrong on that" or "I tried it and it did not work" here.
I don't think anyone here assumes they have all the answers for everything. Discussions like this one ("what do YOU consider KISS?") help re-organize, flesh-out and consolidate such 'free-form' discussions that happen in various places on the site.
My Two Cents.
Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.
I feel this is a sufficient sacrifice to the principle.
Quote from: Fortis on June 11, 2008, 09:38:23 AM
Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.
I feel this is a sufficient sacrifice to the principle.
Ahh true ;), under those conditions knowing where you are, how fast your going, or where your going is of little importance ;D
Quote from: Fortis on June 11, 2008, 09:38:23 AM
Having considered this question carefully, I have decided to limit myself to only three nubile, bikinni-clad, swimwear models on the foredeck...provided at least two of them are redheads.
I am not sure that this is correct. Please send me 3 for research.
I must have missed that part of the manual. I was sailing simply to get away from the women that nag me. Are you tell me there are different kinds out there that do not nag?
;D
Quote from: ronc98 on June 11, 2008, 01:44:13 PM
I must have missed that part of the manual. I was sailing simply to get away from the women that nag me. Are you tell me there are different kinds out there that do not nag?
;D
Yes there is, but beware they may argue... or debate (depend on which side of the pond you are) :D
I'm a late comer to this thread, but it is interesting... I wish I had joined this group earilier- I gave away a lifesling when I was parting out a Cat -27. You could of had it for free and see if it was useful Capt S.
I am going to open a can of worms- What if once we decided was is essential for cruising that we established a triple redundancy for it on our boats? Take fresh water for example-
First line- foot pumped out of boat tank.
2nd line-second tank that can be hand pumped (involves buying a hand pump and extra)
3rd line- Water jugs that are clorinated and sealed for emergency use.
Too much? Perhaps, but I am seriously thinking along these lines for propulsion, navigation and basic necessities of life before I sail over the horizon. In order not to hijack this thread, I will start a new one with an identical post....
A lot of that depends on destination and length of time to get there.
I am definately with the Captain on this one and you may also add to much stuff and something is gonna get broke, and could make life heck for one at sea
;D
I missed most of this thread also- since I was out on a VERY KISS boat doing a 5 day cruise. We had no lights other than stick on running lights ( didn't need them), no cabin, no refrigerated foods at all, only water in jugs.
ALL of our food for this trip was carried in a pair of the clear kitty litter buckets with snap closed lids.
EVERYTHING else was stowed in dry bags because at times it was a WET ride.
We did carry a hand held GPS for speed and distance calcs- no need for position when inshore the Texas coast, and a hand held VHF. Otherwise it was an open boat.
And a real blast. We had a BALL. The only trouble was it was over too soon.
And by the way, my nubile lady was bikini clad early each day, but after about 10 AM only a fool would continue to wear only that ;D But she was seldom on the fore deck- about half the time she was on the tiller
Here was our food lockers. The ice chest was loaded with frozen water jugs at the beginning, plus ONE beer per night
Quote from: CharlieJ on June 17, 2008, 08:41:21 PM
And by the way, my nubile lady was bikini clad early each day, but after about 10 AM only a fool would continue to wear only that ;D But she was seldom on the fore deck- about half the time she was on the tiller
Once Again, ::) What no Pics ;D
Huh Oh I can hear Laura running in now.....(covering my ears) :)
You guys steered for the entire 5 days? Without a place to get out of the sun? I think you get the polonesian award! Throw that GPS over the side! No need for that here! :D
Just for the record I have lots of stuff on my boat that is definitely NOT KISS, but I am prepared to do without until I can fix it. I am currently sitting in my bathrobe after the shower that followed an extended period in my engine room (yes it is a room albeit small) replacing the v-belt on my generator. Fortunately it ate itself on the last day of my latest cruise. <grin>
Some thoughts based on one ocean crossing and lots of long-distance coastal cruising:
1. Sat phones are grossly over-rated. You often can't get a signal when you want one and connections are frequently dropped. They are a power-consuming exercise in frustration.
For long-distance communication HF radio (marine SSB and/or HF ham) is the way to go IMHO. If you do carry an SSB, a small portable shortwave receiver for weather fax and shortwave broadcast (like BBC) will reduce power consumption.
2. Spreader lights (and a plug-in flood/spot-light) are very very useful. If something poops out forward in bad weather at night your night vision is among the least of your issues. I feel having light on deck during some evolutions (torn sail, major sail change, etc) is a big safety factor. In addition it is a big help in getting the attention of medium-sized ships.
3. Regardless of how you do it, some self-steering is the difference between civilization and survival. Period-dot.
4. AIS is of more benefit coastal cruising than offshore. If you are headed for Europe or the South Pacific don't worry about it. If you are going to be heading up and down the East Coast or Gulf Coast of the US (I can't speak to the West Coast) it is worth some thought. If NY harbor or the Delaware Bay is on your itinerary it's worth a lot of thought. I'm still thinking about it and haven't decided, but I do have radar ...
sail fast, dave
I have been thinking about stowage aboard Faith. Specifically, the v-berth stowage that is probably much like the extra stateroom on a larger boat. It is mostly used for storage of those things you need, but not right now. (well, that and the head).
I was thinking of building lockers to contain all of the various things that were in boxes, bags, and just lashed here and there.
I have been taking things off of the boat forever, but somehow there is always more.
That extra roll of no-see-em netting, the spare prop for the dingy motor, the little propane lantern that was the last resort for emergency lighting... this that AND the other.
I am a 'fix it' guy, and carry way too many tools. I had spares for spares, and enough fasteners to replace most of the hardware onboard.
QuoteMaybe the thinking behind KISS ought better to be explored with the list of what we have found NOT to be necessary.
I was thinking of systems when I started this thread. I am now looking at another level of 'reductions'. I weighed the extra large Plano tackle box I kept the spare fasteners in. This box weighs 41 pounds. I think I can be comfortable with about 5#.
KISS is where you find it.
41 pounds of spare fasteners!!! And you thought my bench vice was too much ???
P.s. Good thread though...
The recent trip on my friends boat both challenged and ultimately re enforced my position on chart plotters.
I have used them before, on other deliveries... most all large power boats have large plotters. I understand the attraction, but know better then to rely on them. If you can not tell what your heading is, or what chart you are on at any time I think you are destined for trouble eventually.
I think this list is valid, but eventually I think the new generation AIS equipped VHF radios will probably become pretty standard...
Just to establish a reference point, this is for a Marconi-rigged cutter that'll be used for coastal cruising initially and then probably offshore voyaging as well.
My list of unneeded items:
1. Roller furling, but alas I have it ... I do plan on going to only hanked on headsails when I need new sails made.
2. Battens in my sails. I also have these, but they'll probably go with the next round of sails, too. Less cost, less maintenance, and I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. In fact, there is a variety of performance enhancing equipment that doesn't appeal to me. As long as I can sail at a decent clip under normal conditions and beat my way off a lee shore in a gale, I'm happy.
3. Pressurized water. I don't have it aboard or on land. Hot showers are nice though. Need to make friends ashore :)
4. A standard marine head. I have one though, so I'll probably keep it. If working from scratch, I'd probably do a composting setup.
5. More than 7 feet of chain on any of my anchor rodes. I know this is less than many folks are comfortable with, but this boat has already cruised extensively, as-is, and I'm comfortable with her considerable ground tackle: 75# yachtsman (storm), 35# & 42# yachtsman (working), 15# Northill (stern), and I'll be adding either a Danforth (Hi-Tensile) or Fortress for muddy anchorages. All anchors are easily accessible at bow or stern (none stowed below.) Of course, I expect other cruisers to have very different opinions and ground tackle configurations. Hopefully, we'll get to "debate" them over a grog someday...
6. An outboard for my dinghy. Oars and sails are just fine by me.
7. A liferaft. For off-shore voyaging, I believe in modifying the dinghy to double as a liferaft, by the addition of inflatable flotation (ala the Pardeys) on my, of course, hard dinghy. With the addition of sails; hopefully, I'd be able to reach shore or at least a major sea lane without assistance.
8. An engine, but I have one, so I'll keep it. I will configure rowing and sculling setups though to have an additional backup form of propulsion and one that's quicker to get going than the engine.
9. EPIRB. Sailor, save thyself. SPOT, I am considering, though.
10. Radar, AIS. YMMV, of course. I'm comfortable with the idea of navigating the fog with only GPS, a depth sounder, and a compass. I should get plenty of practice on the coast of Maine, too. And I will be following COLREGS the whole time! So many folks don't bother with sound signals here in the fog. It would be nice if they did.
11. Sat Phone or SSB. Alas, I need to send/receive email from anywhere to keep my business running, but I'm not particularly fond of either of these. As bad as it is, I'd probably need a Sat Phone for international cruising (I need email & at least minimal web for work, even though I would do very little on a passage, and with someone else keeping watch.) For coastal, I'm fine with my powered Wifi antenna and a Verizon MiFi.
12. Stanchions and knee-high lifelines. I have stanchion-less lifelines that begin chest high at the boom gallows and run to the base of the fore stay (with a eyelets lashed to one of the shrouds on either side.) I trust this arrangement more anyway.
13. A spinnaker. I am considering a drifter, eventually, though.
14. An autopilot. I have one now, but will remove it as soon as it breaks or when I make a wind vane, whichever comes first.
15. A wind speed or direction indicator. Ok, I will have a pennant and know my Beaufort scale, but what else would I need?
16. Heel indicator. Does anyone really find these useful?
17. Cockpit led lines. My deck is safe, steady, and I'm not afraid to go out on it in any weather. Plus, I like having a clean cockpit.
18. Marconi-rig. I have one, so I'll keep it, but I'd love to experiment with other rigs someday. Plus, lower profile rigs seem more cruising friendly to me. Gaff and junk are at the top of my list, but if the boat was small enough there are some other rigs I'd like to play with. Oh, and it would be great to have a schooner just to say, "I think it's time to hoist the gollywobbler!"
19. Gear for hoisting yourself aloft (single-handed.) Seems too dangerous to me. I'd prefer ratlines going up at least as far as the spreaders, but that'll have to wait until I replace the standing rigging.
20. Stainless steel standing rigging. I love the idea of fully wormed, parceled and served galvanized rigging ala Brion Toss. Only really worth it if you'll be cruising a LONG ways, full-time, for many years, in my opinion, though.
21. Any dock line fancier than three-strand nylon. With decent chafe resistance, good elasticity, and low cost, who needs anything else.
22. Any line fancier than Sta Set. (Although, Sta Set-X is under consideration for when I replace some of my Sta Set.)
23. Shore power hookup, wind generator, towed generator, or fueled generator. I do have electrical, but solar and the engine alternator should be enough for me. I am going for thin-film foldable modules, though. Extra glass, metal frames, windage when I don't want it, and associated hardware I can do without. I'll pay the premium to have something that won't cut me and I can stow easily when not needed or when wanting to reduce windage. As a plus, thin-film does much better in cloudy/shady conditions.
24. An inflatable life vest. Not that they don't seem nice, but I do worry about them not inflating or deflating when you need them most. A comfortable life vest that you can work in seems essential, though.
25. Davits. :o
26. TV. Lived without that for years, thankfully. I do enjoy my music (radio/iPod at anchor, mainly) and the occasional videotainment downloaded onto my laptop which I need for work anyway which happily pays for the cruising. Anything that helps you make an income while cruising is certainly a huge plus and worth sacrificing some KISS.
Always easier to think of what you have/need than what you don't. I'm sure I've left plenty off this list...
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on June 21, 2010, 09:09:22 PM
Just to establish a reference point, this is for a Marconi-rigged cutter that'll be used for coastal cruising initially and then probably offshore voyaging as well.
My list of unneeded items:
A fair amount of this is personal preference, but I would like to make a few comments. Overall, I like your list and your willingness/commitment to do without. It is very refreshing. I only have a couple of "dissents."
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5. More than 7 feet of chain on any of my anchor rodes. I know this is less than many folks are comfortable with, but this boat has already cruised extensively, as-is, and I'm comfortable with her considerable ground tackle: 75# yachtsman (storm), 35# & 42# yachtsman (working), 15# Northill (stern), and I'll be adding either a Danforth (Hi-Tensile) or Fortress for muddy anchorages. All anchors are easily accessible at bow or stern (none stowed below.) Of course, I expect other cruisers to have very different opinions and ground tackle configurations. Hopefully, we'll get to "debate" them over a grog someday...
Seven feet, huh? That's a little "light" if anchoring in rock/coral doncha think? ;)
If only seven feet, why even bother with that?
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6. An outboard for my dinghy. Oars and sails are just fine by me.
That's what I thought, too. Until I encountered two little words: cur-rents.
I could NOT row into the tidal current in Charleston, SC with my family and I and a load-out for a day ashore. Well, I COULD row into it...making good about 2 inches upstream with each stroke of the oars. This was not a sailing dink, of course, so you have me there, but since the upstream portion was INSIDE a marina and there was NO WIND, the sails would not have helped much.
Okay, so 2 inches upstream per stroke and about 750-800 or so feet to row...that's what, about 4-5000 strokes? No wonder I dropped them off on a finger dock and rowed myself in the otherwise unloaded dink the rest of the way.
Our dinghy is a work boat - we haul loads, sometimes pretty big ones (she's rated for 950 lbs). Using the dink is not ALWAYS in ideal conditions.
Your mileage may vary, of course, and my hat is off to you if you don't use one/...but to me, the 30 pound outboard we now have for the dink was WELL worth the expense and added ex-KISS-ness.
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9. EPIRB. Sailor, save thyself. SPOT, I am considering, though.
I too am considering a SPOT. My only hold-up at this point is paying $150 per year for the service when I am NOT using it. If they would have a plan that lets me activate it and deactivate it at will, I would jump all over that. I've been thinking about writing them with this suggestion. I'd love to have it to keep family appraised while on passage and what-not, but I see no reason to spend the $$ for it to just show my location "in port" for 6 months or a year (or whatever) while we refit or earn $$.
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16. Heel indicator. Does anyone really find these useful?
I do find them useful, but not as a must-have. I bought one for my little boat, but more as 'training aid' than anything else. Low-tech and low $$, so no real draw-back.
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19. Gear for hoisting yourself aloft (single-handed.) Seems too dangerous to me. I'd prefer ratlines going up at least as far as the spreaders, but that'll have to wait until I replace the standing rigging.
Probably not "too dangerous" in port where you need to make repairs or do inspections. Ratlines are and look way-cool, but there *IS* stuff going on at the mast-head. Again, as the inclinometer, relatively low cost, so why not?
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20. Stainless steel standing rigging. I love the idea of fully wormed, parceled and served galvanized rigging ala Brion Toss. Only really worth it if you'll be cruising a LONG ways, full-time, for many years, in my opinion, though.
As opposed to what? Fiber (amsteel, et al)? Hmm. Gonna flat-out disagree on this one. SS rigging is tried and true and can be repaired underway, at sea, if you have the stuff to do so.
It is only my opinion, but the fiber stuff sounds cool, but has not been 'real world' tested yet. I personally don't want to be beta-testing for rigging. We don't know yet how long that kind of rigging is going to last when constantly to sunlight, intermittent near-peak loading and the like. Maybe it's great and will be all the rage within ten years, but I'll wait for some longevity data before I go that route.
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23. Shore power hookup, wind generator, towed generator, or fueled generator. I do have electrical, but solar and the engine alternator should be enough for me.
I thought I would not like shore power either, but I have to admit I've come to appreciate it. Our boat came wired for it. Anyway, when in a slip, it does come in handy. Needed? No way. Handy? Not bad to have the capability.
Personally, I am not a fan of relying on the engine for battery charging. That requires fuel, engines fail, it generally is not good for the engine, etc. You said no fueled generator, but how is that really different from using the engine (other than the engine is already there)?
I like the idea of a towed generator, but it does have its drawbacks. Better for me is the idea of a minimal energy budget backed by no reliance on the electricity should any/all charging plans fail.
Anyway, good list. Thanks for posting it. This is always a good discussion to have and the revisit.
ANother item I find pretty 'un-kiss' on a small boat are wind instruments.... maybe a windex at the mast head, or a but of yarn on the shrouds but no need for some tick-tack things to break.... IMHO
Thanks for the feedback, some responses below.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 21, 2010, 10:20:21 PM
Seven feet, huh? That's a little "light" if anchoring in rock/coral doncha think? ;)
If only seven feet, why even bother with that?
Well, this boat has cruised extensively in Maine (lots of rock) and been to the Bahamas (coral) twice via the ICW. Chafe on the well-used rode is minimal. Of course, I'm even going against Earl Hinz's opinion here by leaving her with less chain than he recommends. With the heavier yachtsman anchors, I think this makes sense and certainly they've held up well with extensive cruising, but I don't expect many to agree with me here ;). I would not go with so little chain on lighter, stockless anchors.
As to why bother with 7 feet? It helps considerably with the way they stow on the side of the bowsprit, provides chafe protection near the anchor, lets me replace the chain often to keep rust off the nylon rode, provides more catenary than you would think (I've done the calcs), it has already been shown to work well on this boat, and some other reasons that aren't in the fore of my mind at the moment...
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6. An outboard for my dinghy. Oars and sails are just fine by me.
That's what I thought, too. Until I encountered two little words: cur-rents.
I could NOT row into the tidal current in Charleston, SC with my family and I and a load-out for a day ashore. Well, I COULD row into it...making good about 2 inches upstream with each stroke of the oars. This was not a sailing dink, of course, so you have me there, but since the upstream portion was INSIDE a marina and there was NO WIND, the sails would not have helped much.
Okay, so 2 inches upstream per stroke and about 750-800 or so feet to row...that's what, about 4-5000 strokes? No wonder I dropped them off on a finger dock and rowed myself in the otherwise unloaded dink the rest of the way.
Our dinghy is a work boat - we haul loads, sometimes pretty big ones (she's rated for 950 lbs). Using the dink is not ALWAYS in ideal conditions.
Your mileage may vary, of course, and my hat is off to you if you don't use one/...but to me, the 30 pound outboard we now have for the dink was WELL worth the expense and added ex-KISS-ness.
It really depends what kind of dink you have here. My dink rows REALLY well, and I've been in her against significant wind and current and made good progress. I can add another rowing station which should really give her some power when I have extra crew. That said, my dink is an old school (Atkin Vintage, 1919) design made to sail and row well, and while it could take an outboard, its design would only work with a small one which I could probably compete with myself.
Plus, I've worked in computers for years, so I cherish the physical conditioning I can get in everyday exercise. I also love the sound of moving over the water sans-engine. Especially nice at night.
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As opposed to what? Fiber (amsteel, et al)? Hmm. Gonna flat-out disagree on this one. SS rigging is tried and true and can be repaired underway, at sea, if you have the stuff to do so.
It is only my opinion, but the fiber stuff sounds cool, but has not been 'real world' tested yet. I personally don't want to be beta-testing for rigging. We don't know yet how long that kind of rigging is going to last when constantly to sunlight, intermittent near-peak loading and the like. Maybe it's great and will be all the rage within ten years, but I'll wait for some longevity data before I go that route.
I guess you haven't read the Complete Rigger's Apprentice by Brion Toss. I'm not talking about new technology or fiber here. I'm talking OLD technology: fully served GALVANIZED rigging. When fully served, galvanized rigging can last forever (80+ years) and responds to stress and strain much better than stainless. The downsides are that it requires a good deal of labor to fully serve a rig (about 1 hour per 20' if you're good,) will require spot re-serving when chafed, you have to slush the rig yearly, and it might look a little out of place on a modern boat. As a plus, the galvanized is about 1/3 the cost of stainless (but you will have the added cost of serving materials and slush,) reduces chafe on sails/lines (when served), makes installing ratlines easier, and can last nearly FOREVER while retaining it's strength as has been proven on many old, old boats. His book is HIGHLY recommended, and will even teach you a better way to tie your shoes 8)
That said, I'm completely happy with SS wire rope rigging (not rod, too hard to carry spare rod,) provided it is adequately inspected and replaced when needed. This seems to be something often delayed too much these days and is a likely contributor to the many dismastings we hear about, IMHO.
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Personally, I am not a fan of relying on the engine for battery charging. That requires fuel, engines fail, it generally is not good for the engine, etc. You said no fueled generator, but how is that really different from using the engine (other than the engine is already there)?
Bingo! See my bold in your quote above. I probably wouldn't install this myself, but it's already there, so why not leave it. I'd prefer a minimal energy budget driven completely by solar. That said, it is nice to have some form of backup for when the sun's not shining and you need power. But yeah, I abhor running the engine just to charge batteries. Just feels wrong to me.
Thanks for the feedback, naturally I expect us all to KISS differently. That's what keeps things interesting...
Personally I wouldn't go with the seven feet of chain, but that's
MY feelings- if you are comfortable, then go with it. We use 75 feet and find it really nice in both the keys and Bahamas. Settles the boat down and usually we are lying to just the chain.
On the dinghy- I would not consider cruising the Bahamas without a small O/B on the dink. Not because of winds- because of distances in many anchorages. I expect you'll miss a lot of fun especially snorkeling trips, simply because you won't go-too far to row. Your mileage will vary