Well boys and girls - I was introduced to a nifty product the other day and thought I would share it with you. It is a GPS reciever that plugs into your USB port on your laptop and the information is displayed on the screen. There are several of these available from 65.00 to around 200.00 The Marine unit from Fugawi is compatable with several chart software programs so that your laptop is now your chartplotter as well.
http://www.deluoelectronics.com/customer/home.php?cat=27
This link will get you started - I was also told that some office supply stores have the non marine versions in stock
I also have the Fugawi program. A little primitive but I like the fact that it can use several chart formats. Other programs often wont do this. I also have
MapSource and Map Send/Blue Map. I use them all on my lap top. I also have them loaded on my Desl Top computer. I plan my vacation and routes at home then up load to my lap top and also the hanf held . Its easyer to see the route on the computer and then uplad the weigh points and route to the hand held.
I have been experimenting with many different setups over the last 4 years with GPS and laptops.
Most required a serial port to USB adapter cord as USB wasn't available.
However, I know keep my Garmin 76 at the helm and use a Microsoft GPS (which came with Streets & Trips 2005). This GPS has no screen, but it is USB and every charting program (I currently use Cap'n) I've tried it with recognizes it right away. Price wise it is one of the cheapest, smallest and also runs off of the laptop's power - which I consider an asset.
John
I experimented with laptop chartplotting in the past, but for my purposes it didn't work out (too much energy, cables, and my low-vis-in-daylight laptop screen). However, it is a lot of fun, here's a neat link if you'd like to try it for free...
SeaClear (http://www.sping.com/seaclear/) is a free chartplotting program. Used to be that its main drawback was that you had to scan in your own charts, then, on a per chart basis, set the scale, projection, and "register" the scanned chart (provide known coordinates on the chart so the software could calculate where you were). None of this was really hard, it just took time. Recently, though, NOAA has put on the web for free Raster charts, so to use SeaClear anymore you don't need to do the scanning-in part. Cool! I don't have a link to the NOAA raster charts, maybe someone else can provide that. Once you have the charts on your system, hook up your GPS and go! :)
The NOAA raster charts (AKA ENC charts) is located at:
http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/mcd/enc/download.htm
Read the "EULA" first as there is several important regulation changes noted in there, the actual button that allows you to access the free charts is at the bottom of the link page.
Doug -
The ENC and the Raster charts I was talking about are two different things. The Raster charts are simple scanned-in raster format charts, where, IIUC, the ENC charts carry data in their formatting, and are not just a scanned image.
OK, you made me Google it :P - here's a couple of links, first a brief explanation of the differences, and the 2nd is the page where you can download/get the charts of both types. :)
http://chartmaker.ncd.noaa.gov/mcd/rncenc.htm
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/staff/charts.htm
The Captain.
I have experimented with 'the Captain' and think it would be great..... if you had a very low power laptop, and display that was viewable in daylight.....
Personally, like Kurt, I don't see it fitting into my navigation plans. That said, I do think it is useful for trip planning (for those who plan) ;D
I think the only time this would be a great help would be coming into - well heck just about anywhere on the ICW. I dont see using it out in open water but getting into an anchorage I think I could spare the power to have a detailed screen that I could see vs the 1.5x2in greyscale on my HH GPS. On my boat I can stand in the companionway with the puter at the nav station and still have my hand on the tiller and be able to see where I'm going. Add this to the array of other nav tools and it could be a great asset and for just 80.00 it sure is cheap enuff to consider for even the most frugal boater.
Laura and I tried to use the ENC charts this spring on the ICW. We found them to be practically worthless, even as a planning device on the laptop. Bridges, bridge clearances, locks, etc just plain aren't shown. Plus we had a VERY hard time figuring exactly WHERE on each chart we were- the markers are shown, but the NUMBERS on those markers aren't always shown. So you see a marker, and can't corrolate it to the chart. Makes it damned hard to locate yourself. Besides that the zooming function is not user friendly at all. aLSO, THE NUMBERS THEY CHOSE TO USE ON THE enc CHARTS BEAR no RESEMBLANCE TO THE REGULAR CHART NUMBERS, SO IT'S EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO FIGURE which CHART YOU WANT TO LOOK AT. (Damned CAPS Lock- live with it- I'm not retyping it :))
We are looking with interest at the newer chart releases however.
Oh- and by the way- coming into an anchorage on the east coast ICW you'd be far better served to be watching your depth sounder or as we often do, have someone on the bow swinging a lead. Charts aren't much use once you get down to the act of slipping in ready to anchor ;) On the gulF coast ICW (GICW) anchorages are where you find them anyway and the charts won't tell you if they are useable or not- the lead saved us more times than once, and we only draw 3'3".
does anyone know which laptops are the most energy efficient? i know that the more upscale screens (e.g., plasma) can draw more current, but i'm having a devil of a time finding a comparison the overall amps drawn by various laptops.
For a boat computer, low amps is king. Recently there has been a growing interest in low power laptops (apparently the One Laptop Per Child program has received interest from outside of developing nations). I don't really know; but when the time comes I'll be interested, too.
No currently made computers use Plasma screens. An easy way to figure out what the average draw for a laptop will be is to look at the wattage of the power supply. An 85 watt-power supply will draw about 7 amps on a 12 VDC system. Smaller laptops, with lower power processors, less capable video cards, smaller screens will all lower the power requirements. The latest laptops use LED-based backlighting for the screen, and this will lower the power requirements compared to a comparable machine using the older cold fluorescent tube backlighting.
BTW, most of the navigation software and such doesn't require a very high-powered machine, and would probably run just fine on an older 1 GHz Pentium III-type machine or one of the newer sub-notebook machines.
this is a link to dc cigarette lighter adapters for laptops. i believe it lists output volts and amps, and there's a fairly significant difference (in amps) among laptops models, but the adapter still needs x-number of watts. so the energy efficiency of a particular laptop may get defeated by using this type of adapter, yes?
http://www.powerstream.com/ADC-p006.htm
Hi vinegar -
Also, take a look at "miniATX" and "microATX" computers. Most of them (if not all, I don't know for sure..) are powered by 12V, and some contain no moving parts - not even fans - so they are very efficient, stable, and quiet.
Ideally, hooked to one of these, would be a touchscreen monitor, but last I looked (which has been a while), the supply for those was sporadic, and they were quite small (like 8 inches). That may well have changed.
But I've found that some of the 'normal' flat screen monitors run on 12V, after the power brick attached to them has converted the 120V wall current. SO there are some possibilities there as well.
Some companies are selling ready-made car and boat 12V computers, too. Maybe search for "12V computers" as well. :)
The one disadvantage of solid state drives are relatively high cost and low storage. The current largest SSHD is about 64 GB and fairly expensive when compared to its regular hard drive counterparts.
Well, if we get away from laptops, the fit-pc (http://www.fit-pc.com/new/) could be a solution. 3-5 watts. 5v. Splash and dust resistant enclosure.
Would still need to find a low wattage display to go with it. It's the system that counts, not necessarily the individual pieces.
Sure, SSHD's are more expensive, but they draw less energy, can't 'break', etc... - all trade offs, as with everything...
Re: storage capacities - you're a bit behind the times there, Dan. :) There are SS drives with lots more storage than that. A quick search found this one, available last October (9 months ago), that is 128 Gigs. http://techreport.com/articles.x/13163 Yes, the listed price is $4,600.
But now, at Newegg, you can get a 120G SSHD for $619 - what's that, only maybe ~15% of what a similar drive cost 9 months ago? Prices drop fast...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820609304
I also saw a story the other day for a laptop that is a really high-end system, which had spec'ed a hard drive at least that large, I think larger. It was not cheap, but then, new tech never is.
Besides, with the 12V system, you can run your OS on a small SSHD (4G is way more than needed for Linux or XP (configured properly)), and use cheap USB thumbdrives to boost your storage.
Newegg sells 4G thumbdrives for under $15.
In short, the arguments you post against solid state storage are quickly being, if not already have been, pretty much obviated. Seems like the smart way to go, especially in the marine environment, and on a small boat which might periodically be subjected to sudden harsh movement.
My Toshiba Satellite uses an AC adapter that is rated at 1.2 amps. I plug it into a 60W inverter and never have a problem with it. That's not much of an electrically correct answer, but I use it around the clock becuz I like the good old music, and about the newest stuff I have (about 3000 songs) is some of the older Willie Nelson stuff. Excuse me, I have down loaded some Nora Jones music, but let's face it, most of her stuff is more than 20 years old. Anyway I have two 2 battery banks plus a starter battery, all isolated, and I have never run dry. Oh I forgot to mention that I also have a 65W solar collector. One other thing, the inverter doesn't get hotter than just barely warm. It's a cheapy that I got on sale (3 of them) at harbour frieght about 3 years ago for $7.00 each. I lost (or gave) one but the two that remain still working good.
CapnK-
The reputable brands of SS drives are still pretty expensive... the one you pointed out seems to have a fairly high failure rate, which is not a good idea if you're using the computer for navigation. :) I have yet to see a reliable, name-brand, SSHD that is greater than 64 GB for less than $1,000. :)
Personally, I wouldn't go with a laptop for shipboard use. I think a modular MicroATX machine makes far more sense. Even a Mac Mini would be a pretty decent machine for boat use, if you can mount it in a location that is relatively protected. Then you could use a weather resistant mouse, keyboard and screen. :)
The current Mac Minis are relatively inexpensive and have a decent size hard drive, an optical drive and relatively low power requirements. They can also be setup with either Windows or Mac OS X.
Oh, that drive was just for illustrative purposes, making the point that SSHD's are going up in capacity (production units well over 64G *are* out there), and coming down in price (under $1K) - though the SSHD corollary to Moore's Law has yet to fully kick in, at least it's starting. I'd imagine that in a couple years, the price-per-Gig differences between a normal drive and a SSHD will start to become relatively small.
Like I said, IMO the best way (value for price point) to go at the current time if you want a mini/microATX system is with a smaller drive + external memory. That way you can have a reliable, natively 12V system for about the current price of a laptop.
There is a product due out soon that I am keen to see reviews of, the Elonex One (http://www.elonexone.co.uk/). It's a ultra-mobile laptop using Linux, with a twist. You can remove the keyboard half of the clamshell, and use the screen part as a tablet computer. It will also be very cheap. Get *that* ruggedized, and you might have a good solution for a computer/chartplotter, as far as being able to use it belowdecks or above, on the boat and off...
Hi everyone!
I'm considering buying a 23' sloop, which has only dc power.. no house batteries..
Can anyone tell me what electrical requirement I'd need to power a laptop pc on board?
Would a solar panel and wind generator and say, 2 batteries be enough?
I would be intending to spend extended periods offshore..
How does everyone else manage?
Warm regards,
Mark.
Welcome aboard, Mark! :)
That's not an easy Q to answer - there are a lot of 'depends' involved. No, not adult diapers... ;)
Depends on the power draw of the laptop.
Depends on the output capacity of your solar panels...
...as well as the same for the wind generator.
Size of your house bank.
Intended use of the system - an hour a day, or all day?
There are some similar discussions around here. I think that your most efficient system would be one of the 12V computers, mini- or micro-ATX form factor. By having a system that runs natively on 12V, you aren't losing any of your generated power to a conversion process, like you would using and inverter to produce 120V or whatever for a laptop.
Also, as another possibility - seems like most laptops run on 18-20V, so you could install a 24V power system in your boat, and thus power a laptop with house current, and without having to use an inverter.
I just encountered this issue and was surprised at how much power a laptop draws. Not something that's an issue when you have an A/C source.
I have two laptops aboard, a high powered Sager system, and a moderately powerful Gateway. My Xantrex Link 20 (battery monitor) reports a draw of around 9 to 12 amps depending on which computer I use (Sager draws more) and if the refrigerator kicks in. I use the Sager for running my navigation software (XP) and the Gateway for email (Vista) via cellphone link and hauling around in the dinghy since it is a less expensive system and I do not lose the nav stuff if it goes in the drink.
Note, the Sager has to be operated using an inverter which contributes to its power draw, the Gateway has a separate power supply with a 12v connection.
Due to the high power consumption (the frig only takes a bit less than 3, but of course it runs 24/7) I do my computing while running the engine to recharge the batteries. Due to the nature of computing (time seemingly disappears) it makes the battery charging go much more rapidly.
The Gateway will operate on battery for a fairly long period if you are not running the CD drive or accessing the hard drive frequently. Storing files on a thumb drive seems to help with this.
I have an old Toshiba A45 (XP Home) which which will run quite a long time on its battery (although I have not tried the nav software on it) so my suggestion would be to find the lowest power system that will operate the software you want to run and go with it. I haven't ever tired one of the 12v computers CapnK suggested, but that might be just the ticket. I did build a a Micro-ATX system, but it was not a 12V system (120VAC) and by the time you added in the power for the monitor, and inverter, I decided to go with a laptop.
Like Cap said, there is really no easy answer, it will depend on what you want to do with the system, and how much you want to use it.
You say you are looking at a 23ft sloop, usually boats of that LOA use an outboard for power, in which case your battery is your house battery. If it has an inboard engine, and you are planning on more of an electrical load than just nav lights (and even then), I'd suggest you try an fit a house battery so you have some options if one battery dies. Also WRT the outboard, if so equipped, take a look at one that offers battery charging so you can get the benfiit of both purpulsion and battery charging when you use it.
Ramble, ramble. ;D Oh well, that's my 2 cents worth, enjoy...
Define extended periods offshore, and define what your typical use patterns for the laptop would be. How much power is generated by a wind generator depends on how strong the wind is, and how much the solar panels contribute is pretty much determined by how sunny it is. If you run into a overcast windless stretch of days, neither will contribute a whole lot to the battery bank.
Most of the time, solar panels and wind generators are installed to postpone having to run the engine to top the batteries off. Unless you're going with the very new TPL-type batteries, you really should only discharge the batteries to the 50% charge level, and unless you have a lot of passive charging capability, you'll generally only be getting the batteries back to the 85-90% charge level. This means that your daily electrical budget should be:
( .35 * amp-hour capacity of battery bank / # of days without running engine or using shorepower) + average power generated passively
If you have a 500 amp-hour battery bank, two 130 Watt solar panels, and you wanted to go for five days between running the engine, your daily electrical budget would be:
(.35 * 500 amp-hours / 5 days) + (5 hours * 2 panels * 8 amps)/day = 35 amp-hours / day + 80 amp-hours / day = 115 amp-hours / day.
An 85 Watt laptop uses about 7-8 amps / hour. If you use it for navigation, and sail 10 hours a day, you're going to use 75 amp-hours alone on the laptop. A small tiller-pilot can draw 5-7 amps per hour. If you use it for self-steering on a longer passage, you might be using as much as 60 amp-hours per day. Lights, refrigeration, radio, instruments and other electrical loads aren't accounted for.
A 500 amp-hour battery bank is a pretty sizable bank, and probably weighs in the neighborhood of 300 lbs. or so. You'd need to have a sizable solar panel array with an MPPT charge controller to really take advantage of it.
Finding space on a 23' boat for a 130 watt panel, which is about 2' x 5' is going to be a neat trick. Finding space for a wind gen might be easier. Finding space for the batteries would be a neat trick too.
Quote from: majdrew on July 06, 2008, 08:58:44 AM
Hi everyone!
I'm considering buying a 23' sloop, which has only dc power.. no house batteries..
Can anyone tell me what electrical requirement I'd need to power a laptop pc on board?
Would a solar panel and wind generator and say, 2 batteries be enough?
I would be intending to spend extended periods offshore..
How does everyone else manage?
Warm regards,
Mark.
well you could save a few amps here and there by replacing the old light bulbs with new L.E.D. bulbs the use less power...just a thought.
I got a 1000w ...(1350w peak)..gen. for $160 (new), just for those bad days , and I'll be adding a set of 80-100 watt solar panels and maybe a wind generator, but not sure yet. I'll also be converting the light bulbs to L.E.D. type bulbs to help save power.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 06, 2008, 05:31:17 PM
An 85 Watt laptop uses about 7-8 amps / hour. If you use it for navigation, and sail 10 hours a day, you're going to use 75 amp-hours alone on the laptop.
Does a laptop used for navigation on an ocean passage
really have to be on 24 hours per day? Do folks that use chartplotters or laptops with nav software keep 'em going
all the time?
Personally, there is no way I'd budget 75 amp-hours per day to run a nav instrument. A sextant uses no juice at all, and getting a fix from a GPS once or twice a day would use a negligible amount.
Quote
A small tiller-pilot can draw 5-7 amps per hour. If you use it for self-steering on a longer passage, you might be using as much as 60 amp-hours per day.
Score points for a wind vane or sheet to tiller steering on this one.
Drop those two power hogs alone, and you cut the budget by 135 amp-hours (using Dan's numbers)...PER DAY...that have to be generated somehow.
Think KISS, Mark. Simplify your electrical budget and you simplify a TON of other areas of the boat - less charging, less fuel if you 'top off' with the engine, less wear-n-tear on the engine if using it only for charging (which is really hard on engines), fewer batteries, less stuff that can break. And, you earn a simpler, 'cleaner' lifestyle that is a benefit difficult to quantify.
It is possible to design an electric-less cruising boat. The Pardey's used to do it, though I think they've made some concessions in recent years. I think one should start here, pretend you have ZERO electrical capacity, then plan a reasonable charging system. Set a budget you can meet (at the 50% discharge level) and add conveniences only that fit within that budget. In my opinion, starting with all the conveniences and building a system to power them will yield huge headaches in the long run.
Totally agree.
We carry at present a single Grp 27 battery. We have a second waiting for me to install. We have a 32 watt solar panel. I can't visualize finding space aboard the whole boat for a 130 watt panel, much less TWO of them- we'd have to carpet the boat.
On the boat I lived aboard, we had a wind generator- mounted way up atop the mizzen mast. On Tehani it would be a problem mounting a wind generator and getting it both high enough to be safe and well enough braced to stay put.
We use a handheld GPS that runs 24 hours on a pair of AA cells. We plug it into the ships power, but the draw is extremely low.
We carry a laptop which we power from an inverter. But we only use it for short periods as a planning tool, or when we are anchored somewhere where we can access wifi. We also use a tiller pilot ( the reason for the second battery) but I'm working on a vane and we carry S.T.T gear aboard always.
Our 32 watt panel has provided the juice we needed for month( or longer) cruises with zero problems. We don't have AC power connections aboard- should we NEED AC power we have an extension cord.
The simpler your boat is, the easier it is to feed the power requirements
I split the posts about Joe's "old Monitor in the boat barn" off here. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1794.0)
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on July 06, 2008, 08:47:53 PM
With regard to a wind vane, I considered this, but it's bulk and my intended use decided me on an electric autopilot that interfaces with my instrumentation. Coastal cruising and island hopping in the Caribbean are mostly short sails with ample opportunities for recharging the batteries.
However if you absolutely have to have a wind vane, I've got an old Monitor in the boat barn. ;D
Vinegarj, got this from Sailnet this morning and thought of you. ;D
XANTREX XPOWER POWERPACK SOLAR 400
(http://shop.sailnet.com/images/cwr/31602.gif)
http://shop.sailnet.com/product_info.php/products_id/43619?campaignid=06072008s10 (http://shop.sailnet.com/product_info.php/products_id/43619?campaignid=06072008s10)
for now i'm going with a 40 watt panel and controller that i switch between batteries. until i add some power hungry devices to the boat, this is providing plenty of juice from two nicely charged batteries.
as to a more energy efficient computer...does anyone have an opinion about the fijitsu tablet computers? it looks like you can get a used one with a pentium III level processor for less than a couple of hundred bucks.