I have run into people who know what they are talking about but want to tell you wrong and other who know what is right but will not tell you just to see you do it wrong.
Do you know how many boats cannot motor into a 15 moh wind with 2 - 3 foot seas.
Just yesterday I saw a boat dock 3 hrs before a front was due and their bow line was too short to be thrown to the dock. Their dog was on deck, in the way.
I have seen way to small of anchors and motors on boats as well. It as if the boat repair people want money from you and the insurance Co.
I have been told to move from my mooring because the boat at anchor next to me would swing into me.
Lynx-
If you're on a mooring, doesn't it mean that you, or at least the mooring ball, was there prior to the knuckleheads anchoring...and according to common sense and anchoring etiquette, the newcomer idiots should be moving, not you. UGH... there are some truly ferociously stupid people out there.
Quote from: Lynx on March 09, 2008, 07:55:46 AM
Do you know how many boats cannot motor into a 15 moh wind with 2 - 3 foot seas.
I'd disagree with this one belonging on your list if we're talking SAILBOATS. This certainly includes every boat cruising and making passages engineless out there, and I'd wager that most of the people doing so are BETTER sailors than even your average cruising sailor, never mind the marina moguls...
Perhaps it should be people who cannot
sail "into a 15 moh wind with 2 - 3 foot seas"
without firing up the engine...
Bill - I know that this is a bit off for some but I have been into far to many situtations where I needed to move the boat into winds above 15 and seas of 3 feet including into Harbors and docks (not much waves at the docks. Without the ability to move the boat in tight quarters I would have gotton into trouble quite easily. OR had to delay long passages.
I think that it is grand that people do not want to motor and have small outboards but the cost and weight differance of a 6 hp vrs 10 hp and a 10 hp vrs 15 hp is not that much compaired to the damage that can happen.
Sometimes I have made bad judgements that require the bigger hp to get out of it and have same me money, time and greif.
Jim Baldwin and others more exeperience sailors than me have told me that the more experience you are the less hp motor you need and I agree.
Quote from: Lynx on March 09, 2008, 07:55:46 AM
Do you know how many boats cannot motor into a 15 moh wind with 2 - 3 foot seas.
Just a week ago last Thurs, Laura and I motored Tehani dead upwind into 25 MPH winds, gusting 30, through a narrow place where we were unable to tack- about a 3 mile motor. Wasn't fun to say the least, but that 8 HP Yamaha running at the start setting ( JUST above 1/3 throttle) pushed us just fine. Seas were very short and choppy because the water was only 7 feet deep, so it was NOT a comfortable ride.
When we got past the shoals we were skirting, we turned up the channel, on a broad reach, set the jib and cranked the boat up for some miles of 7.5, 7.8 sailing ;D With one surge of 8.1!!
THAT was a blast ;D
We ran from about 12 miles out, to the marina and tied in the slip, in 1 hour and 14 minutes-WOOHOO!!!
Edited to add-
AFTER we got in, the real winds cranked up, which was why we came in- the forecast was for winds in the 40s and they didn't miss it by much.
On bigger motors, in order to get there in the bigger seas and winds like these -
(http://bp0.blogger.com/_eRaGSWGizrc/Rz0AATuMcWI/AAAAAAAAABk/i2NCmSeS3A8/s400/DSC_0051.JPG)
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_eRaGSWGizrc/Rz0AAzuMcXI/AAAAAAAAABs/PiMQIGHwgDE/s400/DSC_0058.JPG)
(http://bp3.blogger.com/_eRaGSWGizrc/Rz0AADuMcVI/AAAAAAAAABc/aW-_9xa6OBQ/s400/DSC_0052.JPG)
HE has a 25 hp on a MacGregor 25S. In about 3 hrs it got windier, about 12 miles from Bimini. If we had to turn around it would have been 50 miles to Miami.
curious about something- why didn't he have any sail up at all? Why run only under power?
Not trying to be picky here, just wish to know the reasons.
No problem. We had a wind shift about 1/2 way and had to go straight into the wind. Earlier he had up a reefed main. The coastal weather forcast turned out to be different that forcasted. If we had put up a little sail it would have taken an extra 2 or 3 hrs and we would have arrived at dusk.
We left at 5am and should have left at midnight. A hard 10 hr trip for him as he did not have an auto pilot and his wife was not strong enough to stear in those conditions. Me, my aotopilot saved the day.
Quote from: Lynx on March 09, 2008, 11:35:09 AM
the cost and weight differance of a 6 hp vrs 10 hp and a 10 hp vrs 15 hp is not that much compaired to the damage that can happen.
I think we've discussed this before. For a 5000-10,000 lb boat like many of the full keeled sailboats represented on this site are, going from 6 to 10 or even 15 HP gains you virtually nothing. The HP to displacement numbers are in a completely different part of the performance spectrum you are experiencing with a big engine, light boat. The Mac 25 you showed is operating with a HP/ton ratio of about 25. My boat with a 15 HP OB (assuming I can get all 15 hp to the water) is 3.3 HP/ton. HUGE difference, and I'd only gain an increase in weight on the stern and double fuel consumption for NO performance gain.
It's interesting also that some find sailing in 15 kts with 3-4 seas very enjoyable, even on a beat. I guess it's just one of those things that goes under the 'to each his own' category that makes sailing, sailboats and sailors so diverse and interesting.
One other question, by the way. Why would raising a sail while motoring have cost you 2-3 hours? Wouldn't having some sail up steadied the boat some (I've never sailed on a Mac25, so I don't know how they handle under sail or power), even while motorsailing?
I've got a 20 HP on my boat, and they offer a 50 hp, but I couldn't see any real benefit to having that much horsepower, at the cost of having an extra 110 lbs. hanging off the aft end of the boat. Some of the people with the 50 HP report they can only make 10 knots, while I get 7.5 WOT on my boat, and probably a lot better fuel economy.
I'm also curious as to why you wouldn't at least put up a double reefed main on that MacGregor. I've not sailed on them much, but would think that having the steadying effect of the sail would help the boat.
As for the conditions CS describes, 15 knots of wind 3-4' seas... that's a lot of fun in my book, and quite enjoyable, since I could probably go 10 knots under sail, far faster than I could under power.
We were dead into the wind on a 60 mile crossing. In these conditions we would loose 30 to 40 degrees to destination. If we had left at midnight it would have been easier although taking a few hours longer.
Being able to push through waves and wind is an advantage if you put yourself into conditions that need it. If he did not have the 25 hp then we would have had to turn back as I would not wait outside Bimini at night. The winds would have been bad for waiting.
This is my buddy boat in the Bimin crossing in Nov '07.
I to enjoy sailing in 15 knots and 3 foot seas IF I am going in the direction needed getting there on time. The Gulf Stream eats boats of all sizes and I take no chances.
The fuel economy is good with the new EFI engins. In these conditions I was getting 7 mpg at 7 mph but most of the time I get from 10 to 13 mpg below 7 mph.
I split this topic off since it really had nothing to do with the other thread.
FWIW, I do believe that John is correct.
QuoteI think we've discussed this before. For a 5000-10,000 lb boat like many of the full keeled sailboats represented on this site are, going from 6 to 10 or even 15 HP gains you virtually nothing.
The HP to displacement numbers are in a completely different part of the performance spectrum you are experiencing with a big engine, light boat. The Mac 25 you showed is operating with a HP/ton ratio of about 25. My boat with a 15 HP OB (assuming I can get all 15 hp to the water) is 3.3 HP/ton. HUGE difference, and I'd only gain an increase in weight on the stern and double fuel consumption for NO performance gain.
I can tell you that having run a 6hp, 8hp, and 9.9hp on my boat there is NO gain in using the 9.9, it only increases stern squat and causes a variety of handling problems related to pushing the hull into the bow wave.
I suspect that was also part of the issue with the boat in the pictures (nice pictures by the way).
He claims to have gotton 2 extra mph with the bigger motor and I know that I can move the boat much easier at the dock from forward to reverse and a quick turn. I also know that inorder to maintain speed I have to imcreasse rpm's in harsh conditions like these. This cannot be done with a smaller outboard.
So the question could be, in what conditions to you need more hp to be safe or not damge your boat?
Most of the sailboaters that I talk to cannot motor into a 20 knot wind even if their life depended on it.
Quote from: Lynx on March 09, 2008, 10:21:21 PM
He claims to have gotton 2 extra mph with the bigger motor and I know that I can move the boat much easier at the dock from forward to reverse and a quick turn. I also know that inorder to maintain speed I have to imcreasse rpm's in harsh conditions like these. This cannot be done with a smaller outboard.
But again you are talking about boats that are 1 tonners or thereabout. If I double the hp on my boat, top speed will not change. Period. The HP per ton change is neglible.
Quote
So the question could be, in what conditions to you need more hp to be safe or not damge your boat?
Again, I cannot add enough HP to my boat for it to be a "safe" motorboat in the terms you are thinking.
I consider 0 HP to be safe. If I don't count on having an engine and keep my boat 'safe,' then having the engine can only help. It really boils down to a matter of psychology. I view my boats as sailboats. I've had engines fail on me too many times in 'critical' conditions - bad fuel, wrapped props, whatever cause - to count on an engine for anything.
I'm talking about the mindset that it's a sailboat FIRST. Period. Everything about her design centers on the sails and the rig. If I cannot sail into/out of a situation, probably best to avoid it. 15 kts on the nose and 3 ft seas is not conditions I would avoid sailing in.
Quote
Most of the sailboaters that I talk to cannot motor into a 20 knot wind even if their life depended on it.
Why would I try to motor into 20 knot winds? Why?
I lot of folks suffer damage to their boats motoring into conditions that are really not all that unsafe. The number one rule is do what the boat needs...she'll "tell' you what she needs.
I've sailed into 20+ kt winds. So again, why would I try to motor...in other words, why would I rely on my engine in conditions that are easily sailable? "If their life depended on it" to me implies that I got myself into a situation believing I was going to rely on the engine to get me out, but at the risk of being redundant, I'm talking about a mental approach that precludes that belief. I NEVER approach seamanship as "sails okay, engine if need be."
Neither of my boats are motor boats...they both handle rather piggish under power. Both sail rather well, even in conditions far more trying than you describe. On my small boat (1350 lb dry displacement), I rather enjoy sailing in 20-25 kts.
Your point is well taken. I wish that I could say the same about my boat but I did not buy it to be a pure sail boat. I motor most of the time so it makes me more a motor sailor than a sail boat. Watching the bigger boats leaving and getting into a dock makes me wonder if they would be better off with more motor.
If one knows what their boat can do under many different conditions, that would be prudent. However, the basis of the starting thread was not this but my point was under HP motors on sailboats. Having more power has gotton me out of a great many situations. I have seen a few boats where more hp in reverse or turning would have prevented problems. The same goes for going under bridges and getting out of somebodies way. Like a 3 burner stove having the extra burner is nice but not needed most of the time.
If you are happy with your boats HP and performance then do not change it.
The best is to know what your boat can do under all conditions and make it work for you.
Greg - on the squatting. I don't know. It may be a trim problem or a loading problem. He is in the Exuma's, Long Island.
Quote from: Lynx on March 09, 2008, 11:12:02 PM
Watching the bigger boats leaving and getting into a dock makes me wonder if they would be better off with more motor.
my point was under HP motors on sailboats.
Having more power has gotton me out of a great many situations.
I have seen a few boats where more hp in reverse or turning would have prevented problems.
If you are happy with your boats HP and performance then do not change it.
The point is that on most of our boats, more HP will make no difference. That's that point I am trying to get across. I could quadruple the HP of the ob on my A-30, and the handling under power would not change. There's simply too much boat, and the wrong underwater hull shape.
A Mac 25 or MAc 26 is a completely different animal. No one is arguing that for YOUR boat, a big engine gives you no benefit. But you are saying that for all these other boats, they are underpowered. That's not quite true. The are generally if anything overpowered already for what such an engine can possibly give them. They are not motor boats and will not handle like motorboats. Period.
Quote
Greg - on the squatting. I don't know. It may be a trim problem or a loading problem. He is in the Exuma's, Long Island.
Craig mentioned stern squatting with larger hp ob's on his Ariel - that's not a trim issue. That's because the boat reached "hull speed" and the bow is rising on the bow wave - it cannot climb out like a planing hull. All that can happen is the stern pushes down. So, any extra horsepower simply pushes the stern down - it does not make the hull move faster through the water or handle any better.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 09, 2008, 11:21:41 PM
Craig mentioned stern squatting with larger hp ob's on his Ariel - that's not a trim issue. That's because the boat reached "hull speed" and the bow is rising on the bow wave - it cannot climb out like a planing hull. All that can happen is the stern pushes down. So, any extra horsepower simply pushes the stern down - it does not make the hull move faster through the water or handle any better.
Exactly! On Tehani we can achieve hull speed running just under the "start" position on the throttle (8hp 4 stroke Yamaha). Increasing to the half throttle position gets us MAYBE .5 knots faster ( that's 1/2 knot), then the stern begins to squat. Running at WOT we get ZERO increase in speed, and lots of water in the cockpit because the cockpit drains go under as the stern squats even more.
Tis the shape of the hull- it's a displacement boat, will NEVER move much faster than hull speed, other than surging down a wave front ( which is how we saw 8.1 on the GPS sailing a week ago or so). It WILL sail faster than that though- again because of hull shape- as she heels, the longer overhangs immerse and the waterline lengthens- giving a higher theoretical hull speed. Still looking at about 6, 6.2 tops though.
I'm a dealer for Mac 26 M's by the way. Got a brand new one sitting out front right now. The boat is a compromise. Pretty fair sailboat ( better than the X in my opinion) and a good power boat- but it's hull is more optimized for power- it's a PLANING hull and can use the extra HP to get up and over the bow wave. Displacement boats like John's and Frank's and KaptK's ( and Tehani ) cannot.
And as I said in an earlier post- recently Laura and I motored dead into 25 knot winds, gusting higher. We were also powering against a light tide. We did it because we had been anchored in a bay off the main bay, heard a forecast of STRONG winds with rain coming that afternoon, that night and the next day and decided to head for the marina. We had to traverse a 3 mile area with a sand bank on one side and oyster shoals on the other- no room to tack safely. So our choices were to stay anchored out for two days, or try to beat the stuff back to the marina. We chose to try to beat it. And we did- but it wasn't comfortable- it was wet going and we weren't making real good time - maybe 3, 3.5 knots. But at no time did we need more than half throttle to power the boat and keep it under control.
Interesting points and well taken.
Lets take a Flicka. Per what I have been told that it cannot motor into a wind of 15+ with the stock motor. Would this have been solved with a bigger motor?
I have heard that some sailboats have trouble stopping at the dock. Would this be solved by a bigger motor?
(moving today and will not have net for about a week)
I was very dissapointed with the flicka's performance motoring into the wind. Having previously owned a yanmar powered boat with similar displacement...I feel it was a prop issue.The previous boat had a 3 blade...the flicka a 2 blade. At no time did rpm's go down while motoring into a sea, but the speed sure did.I have recomended Jubilee's new owner get a 3 blade. On my 'new' jubilee I installed a 6hp with an extra long shaft and power prop. I love the fuel consumption,light wieght and low cost overall.I find this motor exellent for my cruising style.I have previously cruised the Bahamas on a heavier boat with a 6hp as well. Yes...at times going into the wind I wish I had more power...I think we all do "except if ya have 50HP out back ;)" but I would not change my purchase in any way. I feel 'safety' on a small OB powered boat comes from 1-a proper prop 2-extra long shaft to keep prop in the water in a seaway 3-a remote shift/throttle. This allows much beter control while docking as you are not reaching back over your transom to shift into reverse etc.
as for stopping at a dock-
I've always operated on this theory- which an old man told me when I was in my Sea Explorer days. He said"Son, always operate your boat as though you didn't HAVE a reverse. Then when you really need it, it MAY do the job"
If I'm approaching a dock, I do so at a speed where the reverse is a convenience, NOT a necessity. Coming into our slip, we lose almost all way BEFORE we get there, then bump it in with forward if needed. We lay along side docks the same way, stopping short then making the final speed adjustments with forward.
Now reverse is one failing of our boat, I will admit. With the outboard we don't have much reverse particularly backing to starboard- the boat almost will not back down that way- she will back to port once you learn how- power up, get her moving THEN idle the engine and then put your rudder over. Since the engine sits in a well, there is really no turning it, so you learn how to back up without turning the engine.
In two trips to Florida via ICW, some 3400 ICW miles, we've done quite nicely.
You should also keep another old sailing trick in mind- spring lines- properly used, a spring line can flip you out of a slip or off a dock as neatly as can be. ;D
Good Posting Charlie! :)
I couldn't agree more. Spring lines are probably not used a lot among small boat sailors, but can make all the difference with some wind or current in close quarters. I have gotten to really appreciate them with my current boat (Röde Orm) which is a Challenge to maneouver due to it's weight and looong keel.
Haven't really figured out how to work with the spring lines when single-handing though ???
Sometimes you can double the line, leading it back to the boat- then when you need to, you cast it off and haul it in from around the cleat or bollard on the dock or pier.
And sometimes you just have to dinghy an anchor out and kedge yourself into clear water, then haul the anchor when ready. I had to do that several times while living on my 35 foot tri. Pinned to a dock by winds, you just aren't getting it off another way sometimes.
And every once in a while, you just have to stay put til things improve ;)
Quote from: maxiSwede on March 11, 2008, 05:08:36 AM
Good Posting Charlie! :)
I couldn't agree more. Spring lines are probably not used a lot among small boat sailors, but can make all the difference with some wind or current in close quarters. I have gotten to really appreciate them with my current boat (Röde Orm) which is a Challenge to maneouver due to it's weight and looong keel.
Haven't really figured out how to work with the spring lines when single-handing though ???
Although not necessarrily using spring lines, here is a series of photos of Che being backed out of her slip single handed.
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4320&stc=1&d=1186552694)
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4321&stc=1&d=1186552763)
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4322&stc=1&d=1186552775)
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4323&stc=1&d=1186552788)
Grog on you Tim! ;D
On the third pic you seem to be very close to a swim though ;) Doubt that an average 65 y o would have made it onboard there...
Ok , how about some info on that dodger!!!!!???
[/quote]
Although not necessarrily using spring lines, here is a series of photos of Che being backed out of her slip single handed.
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4323&stc=1&d=)
[/quote]
LOL :) Actually that is a set of pics from the PO, who is...well let's just say a bit younger than I ...
and to be honest he is not using the stern line the way I would to control the aft.
I have on a few occasions taken my boats out the same way using just the bow and stern lines, and timed the jump, but you do need a calm day with no current for it to be safe.
Quote from: Zen on March 11, 2008, 11:47:14 AM
Ok , how about some info on that dodger!!!!!???
This was a major mod by the PO, documented on the Ariel site at;
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1120&page=5
I am now doing finish work on the underside of it and will post pics on that same thread when I can.
I can say I am quite happy with the look and performance of it.
NicE work!
The Force 10 Drop In Two Burner is ALSO NICE!!!!
Quote from: Tim link=topic=1533.msg15158#msg15158 date=
Quote from: Zen link=topic=1533.msg15156#msg15156 date=
Ok , how about some info on that dodger!!!!!???
This was a major mod by the PO, documented on the Ariel site at;
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1120&page=5
I am now doing finish work on the underside of it and will post pics on that same thread when I can.
I can say I am quite happy with the look and performance of it.
I do the same thing when I'm casting off from a pier that I can actually walk (I hate finger piers) Bow line in one hand, stern line in the other, push the boat out of the slip, turned it over, and jump on it, coming back to dock its another story (bumper cars anyone?)
Gus
Hmmm... ??? I have a 6700 lb boat with an 11 hp diesel. It will power dead into a 30 knot wind, although not with any great speed. Enough to get me up a tight channel, or through an inlet, or into harbor when necessary. That seems to be sufficient for me. :)
Diesels generally have an advantage over outboards on sailboats, since they're generally able to fit a larger prop that is more suited to pushing the heavy loads of a sailboat. A 20 HP outboard can fit a 10" prop or so as a maximum... not really sufficient surface area to deal with a 3000+ lb. boat.... much less one that displaces over twice that...so you tend to get a lot of slippage from the prop.
Wow what a neat topic...
When I single hand, I usually look for a wind forward of the beam to get out my slip, although those pictures fire my imagination on how I could work with an aft wind. I also like the wind in front when I come back into the slip...I have a old dock line tied on the front of my slip, and I come in slowly and apply pressure to the line, then jump out and tie in to the cleats. This is usually under OB power. I find if I just have the OB idling, it applies enough pressure to the front dock line to keep the boat still. At most foriegn docks there is usually someone there to help (if I come during the day)
But...
i usually don't have any type of tide- just wind. So I am sure you guys are better at this than I am. The pictures above are impressive.::)
newt
There is a newer Outboard that has a larger prop with a lower speed prop. Mercury calls it "Bigfoot". My 50 hp. has a 14 inch prop.
The Smallest Merc bigfoot I believe is 15 hp.
Lynx-
Cool... I'll have to take a look at them.
Ahhh.......
Quote from: Tim on May 14, 2008, 09:21:55 PM
After taking the Ariel out today again (where I also have a long motor out to where there is wind) I feel fairly confident that the 5hp Honda is going to be plenty, especially if I change the prop out for a displacement prop.
Tim
The voice of reason..... ;)
On the topic of HP required to move sailboats...
On our trip to/from Oriental a few weeks ago, I mentioned outboard issues that I THOUGHT at the time was some bad gas...the issue arose immediately after refilling the ob tank with newly purchased fuel while underway. That is, we were motoring fine and the tank was getting low, so I refilled from a can, and about 5 minutes later the engine dropped rpms. In Oriental, I drained the bowl and she ran fine for a while, then dropped out again. So, I made the assumption "fuel."
However, I finally go to do some checking on the engine, and the ignition module has gone bad and was not firing one cylinder.
So, we motored back from Oriental, over 20 miles, on one cylinder. An 8 HP outboard running only one cylinder (so 4 hp?) pushed our 9000 lb boat 4.3 knots.
All this talk of outboards and power has got me thinking . What the devil was the PO of my boat thinking when he put a 10hp 2 stroke merc on a 2000lb boat ? ??? It is way over powered, Catalina recommends a 4-6. The 10hp is pretty heavy about 60lb's and at hull speed the throttle is barely off the start mark .
I have considered selling the 10hp and buying a 5hp four stroke as the 10hp is only 4 years old I would probably get enough for it to pay for a new 5hp. The only thing that has got me thinking it might not be a great idea is what I've read about vibration from single cylinder engines . And the fact that i cant find a 2 cylinder OB under 8 HP
Matt
Before you trade that 10 hp for a 5 a couple thin gs you may want to think of.
Do you have a Catalina 22 no ref to motor but weight considerations.
A older 10 2 cycle probably has forward and reverse gear and maybe even elec. start which means some generation power. A lot of people will correctly say that generation power is not that much but in my experience it is enough to keep your nav. lights and radio with common sense use of a cabin light running for cruising. No micro wave or refrigeration and multiple other electronics some must have on board. Also if it does have the elec. start that often makes sailing mates of the fairer type happy if they have to ever start engine in case you can not for whatever reason.
Light weight of 5 hp 4 cycle is nice but it almost never has more than forward with reverse being shifting into neutral pivoting engine around then shifting into gear. Some people are not comfortable with that sequence of operation. Never heard of electric start or any type of power generating capability.
As far as power requirements to move boat both will do just fine. On the 10 probable never use more than 1/4 throttle, low noise and viberation. The five again plenty of power, might have to run at higher throttle maybe a little more noise and viberation.
For fuel usage the 4 cycle will edge out the 2 cycle and less pollution. Nice not having to mix fuel.
All in my HOP
Quote from: matt195583 on February 14, 2009, 08:00:11 PM
And the fact that i cant find a 2 cylinder OB under 8 HP
FWIW, I've got a 6 HP that is a two cylinder. It's a 1979 Johnson 2 stroke.
I don't know about newer offerings that meet that spec, but smaller engines in two cylinders are out there...
Thanks John for starting up this motor discussion again, ;) Nothing better in getting the blood warmed up on a winters evening ;D
mrb, I use a 5hp Honda 4stroke that has a forward and reverse gear. I grant you that 2 strokes can be lighter, but likely not as fuel efficient as 4strokes.
For my Ariel the weight of the 5hp is just about right and I would not want anything heavier. Power wise it will get her to hull speed at about half throttle or less, and with a displacement prop get her outta the hole easily I believe.
I have a generator head on it but don't believe it will do much more than maintain my batteries while using minimal instruments, and that would be at a fairly high RPM.
mrb yes my boat is an Aussie made Catalina 22 and my 10 is pull start with no charging , I was considering putting a rectifier on it to charge but apparently at the RPM i run at it will do next to nothing. my electrics are fairly basic with fish finder, tiller pilot, fluro cabin lights and LED nav lights, 27 meg, bilge pump and a 35 liter Engel fridge. I want to fit a VHF stereo and a GPS also . I have a 10 watt solar panel that keeps 2x100 amp hour battery's well topped up so I'm not sure if i need charging capability at all.
the weight is a concern but what is more of an issue is the excess power , with my brother at the tiller the other day. He kept wanting to screw throttle on despite me telling him that hull speed was it >:( . and i know for a fact that of too much throttle is applied the motor mount will actually flex the transom . I am looking at reinforcing the mount but its harder with the inner skin in the way .
So that flexing issue is probably the main reason why i am considering the HP change also the risk of oiling up from low rev use . extra electrical power would be a bonus .
Matt
In those circumstances I think you are one the right path, trade that monster off.
My boat is a com-pac 16 which displaces around 1100 pounds. I have a tohatsu 3.5 hp motor which pushes it up to near hull speed at a high idle setting.
A 5 should do you just fine. Funny how some of those builders are right on sometimes.
I also know how it is when trying to explain hull speed and motor rpm to some.
Good sailing down there
mrb
i have a 26 ft swing keel, how much HP should i be looking for in a outboard motor?
Hi there, I have been doing a lot of research in this area ( most of it on this site and a few others ). Not sure what / where you are looking to use it, but I would say your probably fine with a 6 hp.
I have 10 HP on a 22ft swing keel and it is about 6 too many . :)
I have a 26' fix keel shoal and I use a Nissan 4 stroke 9.9 which does a great job. ;D
It mostly depends on your experience and your cruising grounds.
No current and little head winds. a 6 HP will do.
Lots of experience - a 6 hp will do.
Strong current,
Strong head wind and seas,
Not much experience, Get the bigger motor. I know of a man who had a 25 HP on a MacGregor 25. He was in the Bahamas Nov 07 to Mar 08.
The bigger motor will handle a lot of operator errors. A smaller motor can work well. a lot of discussion on this forum about this. Make sure that you get a high thrust prop (low pitch).
Quote from: Lynx on March 01, 2009, 07:05:48 PM
It mostly depends on your experience and your cruising grounds.
No current and little head winds. a 6 HP will do.
Lots of experience - a 6 hp will do.
Strong current,
Strong head wind and seas,
Not much experience, Get the bigger motor. I know of a man who had a 25 HP on a MacGregor 25. He was in the Bahamas Nov 07 to Mar 08.
The bigger motor will handle a lot of operator errors. A smaller motor can work well. a lot of discussion on this forum about this. Make sure that you get a high thrust prop (low pitch).
James, I don't know how to put this any more tactfully, but you are wrong. I say this not to argue, but for the sake of those who may not know.
Other then a hull like yours, designed to plane in one mode and sail in another, 25 hp is not only not helpful on a 25' sailboat, but dangerous.
The boat you posted about earlier shows exactly why this is such a problem. A displacement hull will not respond well to attempts to cause it to exceed hull speed. There are times you can do it, when the conditions are right.... but the application of horsepower beyond the fixed mathematical formula causes more problems then it solves. While we have largely discussed issues of weight and fuel use, there is a valid safety concern as well.
Too much hp will cause the bow to 'dig in' This resistance eats up the hp, so it does not translate into anything productive. In calm water, it only makes the boat 'squat' maybe lowers the stern... in a seaway, it can be disastrous. Plowing into waves with too much hp applied is going to cause you to have a very rough ride... as born out by example you cite.
Please, anyone considering this do yourself a favor and re-read this thread from the beginning. IF you have a Mac, or a non-displacement hull (multi) put whatever you want on the stern*... if you have a regular displacement mono hull less really is more*.
* Within the rated HP range
This thread is another good one to read.
Outboard motors; Cruising, dingy, tips, maint, & reviews (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1032.0)
Some discussion of this same topic there too.
No, it actually depends mostly on what boat you have. I'd have to agree with s/v Faith on this point. Overpowering a smaller sailboat with a displacement hull is both unsafe and a waste of money/fuel.
Quote from: Lynx on March 01, 2009, 07:05:48 PM
It mostly depends on your experience and your cruising grounds.
No current and little head winds. a 6 HP will do.
Lots of experience - a 6 hp will do.
Strong current,
Strong head wind and seas,
Not much experience, Get the bigger motor. I know of a man who had a 25 HP on a MacGregor 25. He was in the Bahamas Nov 07 to Mar 08.
The bigger motor will handle a lot of operator errors. A smaller motor can work well. a lot of discussion on this forum about this. Make sure that you get a high thrust prop (low pitch).
I do agree with you Faith. A 25 hp was a bit over the limit. I think the most he should have gone with was a 15 hp to push through wind and waves. If he had a 6 hp we would have not made it to Bimini as the last 12 miles was dead into a 20 knot wind and 4+ foot seas. It was rare that I needed more than 1/4 the HP of my 50 hp but in those times when I was not making headway and I wanted/needed to it was good to have. There is a major thread on this. My boat has a high freeboard and not much underwater unlike someothers and the extra hp sure made a safer 1 year+ voyage of over 5500 miles.
My point to make is to go with the biggest HP motor that your hull can take to help you get through those situtations you put yourself into safely. I do recommend that you find others of your make of boat and see what the biggest motor used and what happens with smaller motors going into wind and waves. I must admit that when I remotor I will go with a smaller motor or a much bigger. The 50 hp is overkill at displacement speeds.
Quote from: Lynx on March 02, 2009, 08:43:00 AM
If he had a 6 hp we would have not made it to Bimini as the last 12 miles was dead into a 20 knot wind and 4+ foot seas.
I know we've been over and over this, so I'll try it from a different angle.
What basis do you have that he could NOT have motored into 20 kt winds and 4 ft seas with a 6 HP on a one ton boat?
Because I HAVE motored into 25 kt winds and 4 ft seas on my 4.5 ton 30 footer... with a 8 HP outboard not even running at full throttle.
I guess what I am saying is that on consideration of the experiences I have had, I reject your premise that it is an underpowered outboard that causes problems in 20-25 kt winds aboard some boats. Mine will get me there.
Still, though, given searoom, I'd rather sail than motor anyway.
While I agree that having ample engine power is a very nice thing to have, relying on that power to get you out of trouble is a recipe for disaster. Engines do quit.
The old wisdom was 2hp per TON. Now days I believe it's 3hp per ton.
I sail a 6000lb Cape Dory with a 6.5hp Yanmar diesel. I've never NEEDED more. At times I would have liked more...
One day last winter we were sailing in 40+, Coming back in I had to increase the Yanmar to 2k rpm in order to get the bow to tack through the wind. Going dead to windward was not an option even if I had 100hp. The ride was just too wet and rough. By motoring a few degress off dead to windward all was swell.
Quote from: rtbates on March 02, 2009, 11:03:23 AM
By motoring a few degress off dead to windward all was swell.
Excellent. Grog to you, sir!
Therein lies the problem. I think too many people refuse to work WITH the boat and the conditions and try to force a bad line. That can be as simple as trying to sail to a schedule or perhaps running off when heaving-to might be better. Or, not working with the tides. Or, motoring dead into the wind when a few degrees off is the better, more comfortable and safer course.
I think I have come up with a stock answer for this discussion,
"for Posedin's sake man, it's a SAILBOAT"
I have 6hp 4 stroke outboard with a standard prop (not a high thrust) mounted in an outboard well for a full-keeled boat w/displacement of 5120#'s (manufacturers number). That 6 hp engine has done me fine in lots of weather and strong winds, except for once - in the winds out in front of an approaching hurricane. It was blowing sustained over 25, gusting to 35 or better, and I was running both straight upwind and upriver against ~3 knots of current+tide.
In that situation, the boat would not move dead straight upwind running forward (in reverse, she would - but then the engine was towing the boat, not pushing it, and the going was very slow...). She would fall off the wind+current to either side about 45 degrees, and only then I could make progress. "Tacking" under motor power, you could say. I was able to make 2-3 mph over ground upriver despite not being able to do it in a straight line. So IMO, 6hp should be plenty sufficient, especially if you'll get a high-thrust prop.
-----------------
Regarding X amount of horsepower and displacement hulls and whatnot: Look at a photo of a boat with a displacement hull (or a planing hull, going at displacement speeds), and you will see 2 distinct waves along the hull; one at the front of the boat created by the hull pushing water up and out of the way, and the second wave at the after part of the hull where the bow-wave water has 'fallen down' and rebounded back up.
A displacement hull is forever stuck between those two waves.
A planing hull has enough power and speed and is designed specifically to lever itself up and over the first wave and begin 'surfing' across the top of the water out in front of the very wave the hull itself is making. While having the power available to do this is important, having a hull shaped to optimize the process is equally, if not more important.
For most sailboats, in particular those not designed to ever leave the area between the hull waves, the amount of horsepower needed to drive the hull at basically a mathematically proven/predicted speed is pretty small. Going over that amount of horsepower becomes somewhat of a self-defeating strategery - you carry more weight (in fuel and parts) to go faster, but it takes more power to move that more weight.
Given calm water and winds, if all it takes is 6hp to move a given hull/boat at its maximum speed, then a 25hp motor is not really going to be able to make the boat go much faster at all than the 6hp engine. It's not because there isn't more power available, it is because of all the other factors - things like prop type and size, hull shape, displacement and weight distribution, etc, so on and so forth.
A sailboat (well, most of them :) ) is designed to perform best while staying between the bow and stern waves. Because *this is how it is designed*, you can't just slap a much bigger motor onto the same sailboat in order to make it go much faster. It simply doesn't work that way.
I could put an engine into my boat that would make it go faster than "hull speed" - a military jet fighter engine has more than enough power to make my boat go quite fast! ;D BUT - I would also have to make sure to do all the other stuff a naval architect does in order to make it work: put the engine in the right place, make sure it is geared properly so that the propeller - the carefully chosen propeller - can drive the mass of the boat optimally, make sure that the hull and fittings on the boat could stand the stresses of that much power *and* the stresses that would change with the boat moving through the water at much different speeds than it was originally designed for. I would have to change *the whole system*, not just one part of it, in order to meet the goal of speed..
Most of the boats like mine originally came from the manufacturer with a 30 hp inboard gas engine. While that is 5 times the hp of my outboard, I can guarantee you that one of those won't go even .5 knot faster than my boat under power in calm wind and waves, despite having 5X the horsepower.
What might be different would be in those pre-hurricane conditions; There, that engine would probably be able to go straight upwind - but still not faster than hull speed. It would be able to do it because of the design of the drive train was likely optimized to produce the thrust needed in those kinds of conditions.
Whereas my 'outboard in the well' is being used for a much different purpose than what it was designed for. I could improve it's capabilities by changing the prop to something more suited to the use, but even so it will not be optimal, because the engine itself was not designed for the task it is doing.
The only outboards I can think of offhand that might be would be the British Seagull line, or perhaps the Johnson Sailmaster series (which I am not very familiar with). I do know that the Seagulls were specifically designed to produce the high thrust needed for pushing displacement hulls, with engines and props suited to the specific task. I would love to see and hear a Seagull run, because I have heard they are noisy and smelly. I do know they are also dirt simple, reliable, and designed to do just what I need from an engine, so they are still not off my list of possible auxiliary engines.
So think of it as a 'auxiliary propulsion system'***, and consider not just the question of 'how many horsepower', but also the things needed to properly apply whatever horsepower you *do* have - prop, engine placement, the weight involved and how it is distributed and what effect that will have on how the hull/boat performs. All these things are a part of the question.
Well, that turned into a long ramble, for no particular reason! ;D But maybe it'll help someone someday if they stumble across this thread...
-----
*** (note the word "auxiliary" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/auxiliary), as in 'functioning in a subsidiary capacity' - these are first and foremost 'sailboats', after all... :) )
Good post.
In regards the Seagull. Had one. Noisy, smelly and drips oil The early ones had a 25-1 fuel to oil ratio and much a pretty good sheen on the water. The later ones went to 50-1 which is SOME better. Another point is vibration. I had a Silver Century 5 HP on a San Juan 21. The engine would vibrate the screws out of the fore hatch hinges. Every once in a while I'd see one dancing around up on the fore deck >:( Not fun. In addition you COULD NOT hold a conversation in the cockpit while the engine was running.
We'll keep our 8 hp 4 stroke on our 7500 ( loaded disp) boat, thank you very much. The 6 HP version would have been totally sufficient, BUT- the 6 HP Yamaha is exactly the same engine as the 8 HP, weight wise- they just change the carb, so we figured if we had to carry the weigth, we might as well have the HP to go with it. Beside- it was the ONLY Yamaha available in the entire southern half of Louisiana when we bought it. We were broken down with a shot 2 stroke and HAD to get an engine.
The only time I run it past the "start" setting is once in a while to blow it out for a few minutes, and we accept the squatted stern during those times as something to live with. Oh, by the way- from a medium idle, to full WOT gives us .1 more speed. ONE TENTH of a knot.
CharlieJ, you are like my nentor, I think I will go with and * hp but how does one determine how big of heavy you can put on a boat? I have no plates on there telling me anything. I'm just hoping that an 85lb 8 hp will be oka. the PO had a 9.9 merc two stroike if that means anythin. And as far as I want to travel I need fuel economy and torque not speed when I need it. I'm still open to suggestions. Marc
Good discussion and good points. It is good to see that your boats are performing well in winds over 20 knots under power. Most sailboats with inboards are not fairing as well. People are saying they cannot go into 20 knots of wind under power if they had to. I have just pushed it past the limit a few to many times and had to use the extra hp to get me through that bridge or squall or into or out of a harbor or make that port in time. Voyaging is the extreme sport of sailing. No need to take the extra chance if you do not need to, but then again, why spend the extra money if you do not have to.
A very interesting thread on how much hp is excess.
;D
Lynx-
I remember reading some place that the Hiscock's had an 8 hp gas inboard in Wanderer III. He was commenting that going into some of the passes in the south sea islands he wished he had a larger engine- he was talking about putting a new one in- a 10 HP ;D ;D
I had a 20 HP diesel in my 35 foot trimaran. LOTS of windage. I can't recall a single time when we ran that at more than about 2 k RPMs, and never had any troubles in 2 + years of cruising the east coast, Annapolis to Dry Tortugas, then around the gulf to Galveston. I can recall times when it wasn't fun, and times we weren't moving very fast, but it was a great HP for that boat. In fact we could have done as well with a 15. A buddy of mine ran a Piver AA 36 tri for 4 years in the Bahamas, with a 10 hp Honda in a well in the cockpit.
I CAN recall times when we both just kept the anchors stuck for a few days because it was totally senseless to try to move. :D
Marc- I'm not familiar with the Venture 242, but I think it's a fairly light boat. You will pay a penalty for having the weight on the stern, but some of that will be offset by weight up front. I know the gurus talk about keeping the boat light, and balancing with most weight amidships. Fine, until you take off cruising. Then all bets are off. I've NEVER seen a loaded up cruising boat that was floating on her lines. Usually they are at LEAST 2 inches down ;D I mean, it takes a lot of *C*R*A*P to keep people when away form an easy home port .
So if you are just weekend sailing, that 8 HP) 4 is probably gonna be to much most times. But if you will eventually take off for a while, you'll never notice that weight..
Of course, one advantage will be you'll not need to carry as much fuel for a 4 stroke than you would with a 2 stroke. Like you can go twice ( or more) As far on the same fuel load.
We had looked at a four HP 4 stroke. Two reasons we chose the 8- 3 actually.
Smaller engines were all single cylinder- the 8 hp ( and the 6 hp Yamaha ) are the smallest 2 cylinders they make in 4 stroke, and the 6 is the same engine- same weight.
Secondly, we had limped into ports on the ICW running on one cylinder on two occasions. You ARE NOT GONNA sail the ICW in Eastern Texas and Western Louisiana, unless you can afford to wait for weeks for the right winds. So a reliable engine is a must there.
the third reason is that we were sitting in Intercoastal City with a crashed engine ( the second one, both 2 strokes, on that trip), needed SOMETHING to get home on and that 8 HP Yamaha was the ONLY engine of it's type available in the entire southern half of Louisiana . We really didn't want to spend the bucks, but we gritted our teeth and handed the man the credit card ( that's the only time we use credit cards by the way- urgent stuff)
By the way- if I sound sold on Yamaha's you are correct. For one thing, on our boat with the engine in a well, the shifter and all other controls being on the outboard tiller is great- handling is about like using an inboard controls. And they have a very good reputation for reliability. If it was on a mount on the stern, I think it would STILL be easier to use
Oh, and Marc- if you have not already done so, I'd recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read the entire thing. VERY interesting and informative
I agree on a Venture 242 an 8 to 6 should be fine unless you want higher charging amps then a 15 should be tops.
for info on the thread. I have had to push my 50 hp to 3800 rpms to keep up at 7 mph in wind and seas. However, I have a high freeboard and not much underwater. Bad gas mileage!
The questions of weight and horsepower have been addressed well, but for outboard powered sailboats a critical concern is shaft length, which I haven't seen discussed. Even with an extending engine bracket, the engine can come up and cavitate when motoring into a chop. There are several situations in which I'd rather have a 6 hp with a 25" shaft than a 9.8 hp with a 20" shaft on a typical small sailboat. More power is no good if the engine is busy cavitating.
Tom,
That is an excellent point. There is another thread where that issue (and many others) were addressed as well.
I posted a link to it in this thread here;
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 02, 2009, 12:47:50 AM
This thread is another good one to read.
Outboard motors; Cruising, dingy, tips, maint, & reviews (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1032.0)
Some discussion of this same topic there too.
I know this is a losing battle, because the term has solidly ensconced itself in our (as boating people) language,
BUT-
It's highly unlikely that one of our outboards is ever gonna "cavitate". while it is VERY likely they might "ventilate". In fact, the thing up above the prop is known properly as an "anti- ventilation" plate.
Ventilation is when the prop sucks air down alongside the leg, and makes that funny sound we all know and hate.
Cavitation is when the prop is moving through the water fast enough to pull oxygen from the water in the form of tiny bubbles that "explode" on the prop surface, causing tiny craters. High speed racing boat turning many many RPMS have the problem.
Here's the definition of cavitation-"Cavitation is defined as the phenomenon of formation of vapor bubbles of a flowing liquid in a region where the pressure of the liquid falls below its vapor pressure."
I know it's a lost cause ;D but I HAD to point this out.
Used my dinghy as a pusher today to help a dude get his boat where he wanted in the anchorage. Boat was a Pearson 23 and the ob would not start (he had drug down too close to the channel, and needed to reposition).
Lashed the dink to the quarter and pushed him up. That's with my 2.5 horse ob on the dink pushing BOTH boats.
Incidentally, this was dead into a 15 knot breeze with gusts topping out around 25 kt.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 03, 2009, 09:06:59 PM
I know this is a losing battle, because the term has solidly ensconced itself in our (as boating people) language,
BUT-
It's highly unlikely that one of our outboards is ever gonna "cavitate". while it is VERY likely they might "ventilate"
Push that wet string up that hill, Charlie! ;)
One thing I keep seeing in this thread is everyone is talking HP but there is HP and then again there is HP...
Outboards measure their HP in a different way than people who make diesels or electric drives. The big thing to keep in mind is that outboard HP is very much a product of revolutions on a smalliish prop. and Yes outboards often cavitate on dislacement sailboats unless they are geared low as in the old Yamaha four stroke high thrusts which had a 100 rpm/s less than their normal motors as well as a bigger prop.
George Buehler ( a smart guy) makes the case that a big sand barge can't be pushed by a 200 HP but will move ( albeit slowly) with a 9.9.
My take on HP is from another smart guy, Tom Colvin ( another smart guy) whose HP rule is 1HP per ton for a boat doing coastal cruising and 1/2 HP per ton for a boat doing voyaging. Which seems to work for me but then agin I don't ever sail to a schedule...
If the engine is too large and the prop too small or too steeply pitched for a given boat's displacement, there's a good chance it may cavitate rather than ventilate. A bigger concern is the outboard coming out of the water due to the boat's motion.
My boat has a outboard mount on the back and I plan on getting a 25 inch outboard and have been following this thread, my question is what height should I mount the bracket at (25" would give me standard depth) but I want to make it deeper to avoid ventilation, how much deeper than standard would you go?
Thanks
As low as you can.
The only caveat being, the lower you mount the engine, the more likely it is to get swamped by a wave pooping the boat.
Got a 'rescue' request from the Dockmaster today. A boat from the marina was about 1-1.5 miles away with engine failure. Winds 15-20 kt with some big gusts and the dude felt overpowered trying to sail. He anchored and gave a holler to see if someone could come out.
I went on the dinghy. I lashed on the starboard quarter and pushed him in. We did not go fast, of course, but we did go. We were dead into 20 kts with 2-3 ft choppy seas for part of the way, beam-to the rest.
The outboard on my dink is 2.5 HP.
;) Just goes to show ya! Good for you, here's a grog
Nicely done Capn... what kind of boat was he in???
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 11, 2009, 06:59:50 PM
Got a 'rescue' request from the Dockmaster today. A boat from the marina was about 1-1.5 miles away with engine failure. Winds 15-20 kt with some big gusts and the dude felt overpowered trying to sail. He anchored and gave a holler to see if someone could come out.
I went on the dinghy. I lashed on the starboard quarter and pushed him in. We did not go fast, of course, but we did go. We were dead into 20 kts with 2-3 ft choppy seas for part of the way, beam-to the rest.
The outboard on my dink is 2.5 HP.
As for HP, I've routinely run a 31-footer with a 5 HP. Seagull. On height, my experience has been that the movable weight of a crewman on the boat will make a substantial difference in the engine height. When I bought Thistle (25 ft. Dufour), it came with an outboard already mounted on a raising adjustable bracket. The top of the mounting bracket pad was 19" above the waterline, and the engine clamping pad 5" higher, so even in the lowered position, the engine's ventilation plate was just below the water surface. The very first time I tried to go out, when I went forward to cast off the bowlines, my weight on the bow raised the stern enough that the water pump lost suction. I heard the engine pitch change as soon as I cleared the shrouds, and ran back to cut the engine, but the damage had already been done. The waterpump impeller was gone, and the engine was old enough that the lower unit had frozen in place, meaning I had to replace the engine. I lowered the bracket 7 inches to 12" above the waterline, got an outboard with a longer lower leg, and haven't had a problem since. The point is you also want to know how much the trim of a small boat changes if you're on the bow tending lines or anchoring.
It seems like the trend is for more recommended HP than in the past. I recently read a recommendation for about 3 HP for every 1000 pounds displacement. Is that much really needed? I agree that maybe the correct prop size and pitch is more important than HP alone. My 6000# boat has a 33 year old Yanmar YSE8, that puts out 7 HP at full throttle. The only time I've needed full throttle was to get off a grounding. It has been enough HP even against gale force winds and mean chop. If I followed the advice I've seen in print, I would need an 18 HP diesel to move my boat.
Maybe because newer sailors are less willing to work with the wind and seas and not as skilled in getting the performance out of their boats as earlier generations of sailors. There are many times when I'm out on the bay, and sailing along at 3-5 knots, and so many of the other sailboats are motoring to get whereever they're going.
Too true, too very true.
We call them "motor sailors"
Laura HATES and detests cranking that engine, even now since we have the quiet four stroke. I'm almost as bad. We'd much rather do things under sail if at all possible, and 4 knots offshore for our boat ain't bad speed ;D Not for a 17'9" waterline anyway ;)
We almost always come to anchor or get under way using sails alone, unless some real reason exists to not do that. Seldom happens though.
Of course we use the engine when needed, such as transiting the boring GICW run from Galveston Bay to NOLA . But after we get past the Mississippi River, or ANYTIME here when possible, we be sailing.
I feel like those people are truly missing something. I was told once- anybody can sail in 10- 15, takes a REAL sailor to sail in 2-3. :D
Thanks for the replies on the motor mount height.
After reading the HP thread I think 6 HP is plenty for my boat, but I also want a 25" shaft but I have two reservations:
1. The only 25" shaft 6 HP is one cylinder (I think two cylinders are safer then one)
2. Most motors at 6 HP have side motor shifters (I have a high transom and would have to reach way over the back for shifting)
So to overcome these objections I have narrowed my search to either a Yamaha 8 HP (It has a shifter on the tiller and comes in a 25" length) or a Mercury 9.9 (It has the shifter in the twist grip and comes in 25").
I am leaning toward the Mercury because of the shifter in the twist throttle, I think that would be the most convenient, does anybody know of any problems with this arrangement or have any other ideas.
Thanks
Jay
If you are considering the Yamaha 6 HP 4 stroke, may as well opt for the 8 HP instead- it's exactly the same engine, same weight, everything, but has a different carb. If you are gonna tote the weight, might as well have the extra two HP, don't ya think??
Of course our engine lives in a well, so the shifter on the tiller makes it almost like an inboard as far as control is concerned.
All I can say otherwise is - we LOVE our Yamaha. The shifter on the tiller is why we bought it. Did you also know that you can buy longer cables and mount that tiller handle, with throttle and shifter, anywhere you want it, including on the boats tiller?
Quote from: okawbow on April 12, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
It seems like the trend is for more recommended HP than in the past. I recently read a recommendation for about 3 HP for every 1000 pounds displacement......
Wow, that is overkill. Maybe for a multihull, or a motorsailor... but not for a regular displacement hull.
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 12, 2009, 07:32:15 PM
I feel like those people are truly missing something. I was told once- anybody can sail in 10- 15, takes a REAL sailor to sail in 2-3. :D
That's a good point taken. ;D
QuoteI rather think that refusing to have an auxiliary motor aboard is an admission of weak-mindedness, for there is no need to use it except in times of emergency; but I know perfectly well that if I had one I would seldom attempt to enter or leave harbour without its assistance, to the ruination of such seamanship as I may have acquired. I once believed that the solution of that problem would be to have an engine of such low power that it would be useless in anything except a calm; but that will not do for it is then useless in a swell also, and the sea is seldom smooth.
...
QuoteThe internal combustion engine ... allows the owner who has but limited time to get much farther afield with the certainty of being able to return when he wants to, and it has opened up some of the more difficult creeks and anchorages which he might not have attempted to reach under sail alone.
In my very limited experiences, almost solely aboard boats with very small inboard diesels (the smallest being a lovely Lister AC1W, which survived sinkings and groundings and never failed to start for me) having enough horse power to move the specific boat at hull speed in calm water is enough. Somewhere between 1.5 and 2x that much gives great confidence when setting a hook, or pushing into a steep wet chop. More than this has little noticeable effect on either confidence or speed through the water, but does seem to cost more than the multiplier to run per hour. (Perhaps because when motoring I tend to push more rpms than beneficially turn into speed.)
The one boat I've owned which had an outboard, in a well, I swore at more often than not, and the outboards and I never got along well.