As a new member I want to tell everyone how much I'm enjoying the site. There is such a wealth of information to be had. I've systematically read most of the posts, and feel I have gotten to know many of you through your comments. It is amazing how much we all seem to have in common.
Special thanks to Captain Smollett for telling me about this site, and also for inviting me for a beautiful sail on his 18 footer (I can never remember if it is a Captain's Mate or a Sanibel...they are all very similar).
My first sailboat was a Hunter 23 that I bought about 3 years ago. I loved the boat but while it was technically trailerable, it was not easy to do...even with all the masting raising equipment I built for it. I sold it a few months ago and am now looking for a small, EASILY trailerable boat.
At 63 years young, maybe I'm just getting lazy, but I'm looking for a small boat with good sailing qualities for lake and coastal gunkholing along with 10 minute set up. I'm intrigued with the Compac SunCat 17. At CapnK's suggestion, I checked out all the posts from Jim B at the Trailor Sailor Cat Forum, and it seems to be a good boat. I'm just wondering if any of you have any experience sailing cat-rigged boats, especially the SunCats?
Happy to be here!
EdD
Perhaps you've seen this thread by member Frank who has a SunCat.
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=483.0
He also has a Flicka 20 on a trailer.
I sailed on a friend's cute Sanibel 18. Seems one easy choice for a trailer sailer...along with the Montgomery 17. I like the lapstrake style hull of the latter.
One question I have about the cat rig is "how well do they heave-to?"
I'm just curious.
The Sun-Cat sure is a pretty little boat.
Frank's pics speak for themselves:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1387
Thanks for the info on Frank and his SunCat. I will contact him by e-mail. Actually there are 4 boats I'm considering... the Montgomery 17, the Seaward Fox, Sanibel 18, and the SunCat 17. I also looked at a Victoria 18 - what a sleek little beauty she was. I'm sure any one of them would provide great sailing although as I mentioned in my original post, I like the set up time of the SunCat. Will be interesting to hear what Frank has to say.
The decision is hard...the search is enjoyable.
EdD
Quote from: EdD on June 20, 2006, 12:42:58 PM
his 18 footer (I can never remember if it is a Captain's Mate or a Sanibel...they are all very similar).
Mine's a 1982 Skipper's Mate. :)
Here's my 2cents on a Suncat....There is not a quicker,easier,simpler boat to trailor sail,rig and launch ..PERIOD !! I just returned from a group cruise on the Chesapeake sailing with Monty 15's and 17's. Once at the ramp, they had to step their mast,fasten their boom and attach their sails-mainsheet etc. On a Suncat you simply lift the hinged mast and attach the 'quick connect' forstay attachment=DONE !!! It honestly takes LESS than one minute !!! The boom,sails,sheets,halyards etc are ALWAYS in place !! Take down is just as simple....disconnect the 'quick connect' forstay,lower the short mast onto the boom gallows,put a few bungie cords around it and go home !! Compac has done a wonderful job of their 'mastender' (spelling?) system to make this SOOOO simple. If you wonder how they sail,...day one was light air on a down wind run (snicker snicker)....these fast little Monties got to check out the name on my stern....that is until it was too far ahead to read it. Honest...they sail WAY better than you would expect !! Even the M17 guys complimented her on it's pointing abilities. They are well finished and stable. The only down side is that they are a 'recent' boat so there will not be any older inexpensive ones around. But if you want a new or 'newer' trailer sailer'....they truly sail well,are super easy at the ramp and ooze character.....just my opinion.
PS...a little birdie tells me that if you contact Gerry at Compac yachts he will tell you that they are doing a total re-design of their 16.... Hull/keel mods so it will sail and point better,a BEAUTIFUL new cabin-cockpit look(it too oozes character) and a quick set-up mast/boom arrangment. Best for last...it will be fairly priced to boot !! I am sworn to keep this secret so destroy this paper after reading
Frank,
Thanks for your comments about the SunCat. I was going to contact you via e-mail but you beat me to it. I visited the link that xroyal posted with pictures from your Chesapeake trip...looks like a great time. I also love the look of the dark green/gold accent SunCat...what a beauty!
My main concern was sailing characteristics...which you answered except for one thing...will it heave-to? BTW, I won't tell anyone about the new Compac 16...you're secret is safe with me.
EdD
I haven't tried although Larry Pardy speaks of heaving to with just a main sail in their storm tactics book/video , so I assume you could. PS...the green IS beautiful and they have a dark blue also....BUT beware...dark shows marks easily and way more prone to fade , so if you plan on leaving it in the sun....get biege.
Frank, Your ease of setup/takedown is enviable. Up to now I had been charmed by the features, but, man, do you pay for them. Looks a new one w/trailer and extras could run to $20,000 in a hurry. Here's a link to factory pricing:
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1285272&ybw=&units=Feet¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1456&url=
As you say, used ones not far behind. Still, if one wants to trail, and be on the water in style, it looks a charm.
I found a Monty 17 with Trailer and extras for $4000, but then I opted for my Santana 22 to get the 1230 lb keel for our windy (!), often white capped lake.
Welcome to 'new boat' pricing....yet...what does a new toyota corrolla with air/frieght etc cost AND will you be driving it in 20yrs ?? and if so...what kinda shape will it be in?? FYI..a new M15 with trailer is approx $12000 before shipping but has no lights or even a topping lift !! And ya can't even sit up below alone let alone 2 people. Really...the prices are NOT high....simply 'current' to our economy. Those 'cheap' 25yr old boats most of us compare to, probably cost the same back then relative to wages and economy at the time and have depreciated a lot less than a car over the same period. REALITY sucks some times !!!
Quote from: Frank on June 21, 2006, 01:01:07 PM
Those 'cheap' 25yr old boats most compare to probably cost the same back then relative to wages and economy at the time and have depreciated a lot less than a car over the same period. REALITY sucks some times !!!
I have the original sales slip for my boat from the previous owner; the boat was less than $6000 in 1982, brand new, with trailer, wired for lights and included an (admittedly undersized) anchor AND a porta potty. I bought her for $2800; that's pretty good retention of value.
As comparison, I bought a 1983 Nissan Sentra new in 1983 for $4000. I sold it around 1991 or so for $500.
But, does $6000 in 1982 = $20,000 now? That's over 300% devaluation of the dollar. My boat is comparable to a Monty 17.
I think a cat rigged boat is cool, and I would love to sail one some time.
'Good old boat' has a write up on the no such 30 (?) this month, they extoll the virtues of a cat rigged boat. Sure seems to simplify the rig.
Leave it to Frank to 'discover' them for us. ;D
Capt Smollet...just for fun...As I recall..in 1982 I made approx $24000 at what was then a much better than 'decent' job.So , in comparison to today would a $72000 (3x24000)per yr job be better than 'decent'? I really don't think things have changed too much. .boats are 3x the price..Also,a compac does cost more than a 18ft catalina etc,but is not mass produced and has better fittings etc.The lil sun cat has an opening screened hatch,2 cats eye opening screened ports,a traveler,SS rubrail,stayloc fittings and nice teak trim and teak/holly floor , their neat quick 'mastender' set-up and a boom gallows. Old addage "ya get what ya pay for" still holds true. I hate paying that much,but I sure like earning more !!!
S/V Faith...the nonsuchs were built here in Canada. One of their last new models was a 22 with an unstayed mast and standing headroom as well as an enclosed head !! 1st they had diesals,then they brought out an OB model ,slightly stripped of some teak etc. to keep the price down. Neat lil boats...kinda like the 'flicka' of catboats.
EdD..the boats you are considering are all worthy , but as pretty as the victoria 18 is...its keel makes shallow ramp launching real hard and it is TINY inside so if you plan on short cruises , I would look at the others.
I certainly appreciate all the responses to the Cat-Rigged post. Between what I've read here plus the comments from Jim B at the Trailer Sailor site, I think I'll start looking for a used SunCat. I know they are hard to find but I'm not in a great hurry. I have a sailable boat, a 1971 Venture 21. She ain't cherry, but she floats. I agree that the Sanibel, the Montgomery 17 or the Seaward Fox would all be good boats, albeit with somewhat longer setup times.
Will keep you informed on the progress of the search.
Thanks again!
EdD
Ed, you probably found all these already, but:
2001 Suncat for $13,970 (http://www.mastheadsailinggear.com/boats/usedboat/usedright.asp)
Several Sun Cats listed (http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/COMPAC/1)
2006 Sun Cat (http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/index3.htm?fno=300) is listed if you do a search for Com Pac.
Best of luck, and I hope I get to see her when you find one!!
Ed, Yacht World has 5 17' SunCats listed.
Frank: I'm almost 67 and retired (since age 50) from my excellent salary so I go for the oldies. A new Santana 22 with all the extras I got (including custom trailer, 7.5 hp Evinrude ls and 7 bags of sails) cost about $40,000. Mine is looking good and ready to sail for $2400 (+ new trailer tires and hauling her home from Vancouver, WA = total of $2900.) I was tickled to get new navy blue Sunbrella covered cushions in the cabin and v-berth in the deal. Local dealer for those cushions said he would charge $1000 for same. The price of foam has naturally tracked oil $.
John...you wrote..."Frank: I'm almost 67 and retired (since age 50) from my excellent salary so I go for the oldies. A new Santana 22 with all the extras I got (including custom trailer, 7.5 hp Evinrude ls and 7 bags of sails) cost about $40,000. Mine is looking good and ready to sail for $2400 ". Who could doubt the great deals on older boats !! Thats the problem for new boat builders...they simply last too long !! My only point was that they really are not priced that high when compared with everything else in todays economy. I build homes and recently built one for a fellow that I had sold a smaller one to back in 1986. I asked him what he had paid back then??..A nice lil 2 bedroom with cedar siding and brick accents was $65000 lot and all 20 yrs ago!!! ( even I had forgotten how cheap things were back then and the same home recently sold for $139900 ) ...I now pay that for the dam lots !! So how can ya beat up on a new boat builder trying to put a nice 'package' out the door and pay a dealer his %..all for the price of a small car ?? It has to be a tough business to be in with all the 'oldies' still hanging in at these great prices. You are totally right that there are fine used boats at great prices......but 'new' is really not that bad when put in the perspective of our present economy-expected longivity-potential for lower depreciation etc. .....especially when compared to a car or power boat. The way housing appreciates,I can still offer a new home for just slightly more than the used home market....those poor boat builders have their hands full....I'll stick to houses
Frank, I got it the first time. Guess I needed to say what a bargain my purchase was. And, nice old '60s bulletproof hull too. My debt is to the prior owners who took such good care of her.
I'm sticking to houses too, that's why my sailing time is down now...got to repair the siding and paint my best investment. Paid $36K in '92, and may go for 200K when I finish painting and steps to second floor. The latter price, as you say, would make new boats more attractive to some, but not me. :)
John...I figured ya did...Being in business..I always look at 'other' business's and have dreampt of havin a lil boat building shop, but after a lot of thought...WOW..it would be a real tough go for a small guy I think. Way too many used boat bargains out there. Good luck with your renos and happy sailing!! Have FUN
Frank, from all I've read of your exploits, seems you're having a ton more fun in your travels aboard than you would get anchored to a boat shop. Thanks for the good wishes, and I'll look forward to more of your fun posts!
Don't know if the thread will end here but I want to thank everyone who responded. If you didn't know better you'd think Frank likes his Suncat 17!
The more I hear and read about them the more I'm convinced the Suncat 17 is the best boat out there for my current sailing requirements. In my research I've also gained a new respect for cat-rigged boats in general. I had always considered them to be awkward looking boats with poor sailing characteristics...boy was I wrong! Like so many things in life...preconceived ideas usually lead us in the wrong direction.
Anyhow, great discussion...great site. Glad I'm here
EdD
Wish I checked this forum more often, since I'm a veteran of catboat sailing, having grown up on Buzzards Bay and learned to sail on one.
I might suggest that you look at the Catboat Association's website, as they have all sorts of forums for answering questions, and they also have a "Cats for Sale" section.
As for the technical question about heaving to: some catboats will. My old Marshall Sanderling (wonderful boat, but much too heavy for the average trailer), and the Menger Cats do heave to. Here's how you do it:
1) Sheet in the sail so it's almost amidships, and secure the sheet.
2) Lash or secure the tiller to leeward
3) Raise the centerboard
As I said earlier, not all catboats will heave to successfully. I'm not sure about a Sun Cat.
Another tip when sailing a catboat: If you find the weather helm is getting really strong, try raising the board a little bit.
Catboats are wonderful, fun vessels that are comfortable (except that they don't have standing headroom, unless you get into the big ones like Nonesuches). But as one of my catboating neighbors on Cape Cod told me, after beating me time and time again in races: "It's easy to sail a catboat; it's not that easy to sail one well."
Enjoy your cat; I love my Cape Dory 25D (with its standing headroom and inboard diesel), but I also miss my cat.
--Joe
EdD, 'tis satisfying/relieving when you finally zoom in on a boat that fits your needs. I don't miss the countless hours of scouring the ads non-stop!
Funny how folks change boat needs tho. Here Frank has sold his beloved Pearson after making her seemingly mint, and is now in love with his Flicka 20 and his SunCat. A neighbor of mine declared about 6 weeks ago he'd never sell me his very clean, loaded Catalina 25 he bought late last year, about perfect for our lake. Yesterday he told me he was getting a Catalina 30, and was sorry I had gotten another boat 2 weeks ago. Sort of a kick when you read about someone who has been sailing and loving the same boat for 25 years. :)
I can't help but add again that Frank was my chief inspiration to stick with smaller is better!
Thanks Oldrig for the tips on how to heave to on a catboat. Will also check out the Catboat Association.
There have been a number of articles touting the advantages of smaller boats. When I bought my Hunter 23 I was hoping to get a much bigger boat. I got a sweet deal on the Hunter so I bought it. After 3 years of enjoying sailer her, but hating the setup and take down I sold her.
Later, as I read the "small boat" articles I thought the authors were talking directly to me. Every point they made was true (for me anyhow). I think it is human nature to think that bigger is better...ain't necessarily so with sailboats!
Frank has been a great influence on me also. It was his comments, both on the site and in personal e-mails, that helped me finalize my decision to go with the Suncat. Frank definitely gets some "karma" from me.
EdD
QuoteFrank has been a great influence on me also. It was his comments, both on the site and in personal e-mails, that helped me finalize my decision to go with the Suncat. Frank definitely gets some "karma" from me.
;D
Frank, how do you fix your bacon and eggs on a SunCat? :)
lil single burner butane stove....works great and is compact.
Quote from: Frank on June 29, 2006, 04:17:55 PM
lil single burner butane stove....works great and is compact.
Thanks. I've got Coleman single burner and double burner propane camping types I'll probably give a try. We've got a group that cruises up our 30 mile lake, and rafts near a nice rustic restaurant. Darn, I need a berth! The SunCat looks better and better. ;)