Refrigeration is not a neccessity for me. I am a minimalist. I use a cooler that runs off AC/DC for when I'm motoring or at a slip. I prefer to be on the hook when I am away from home port, so I use nothing - including NO ICE.
Sarah -
I had one of those coolers, and gave it away. Doh! It would be nice to have, dockside in the summer. Away from shorepower, I am so minimalist that it draws too much power. :)
Since August or Sept, I have been "cool" free, experimenting with the concept to see how it fits what I want. It does. It helps that part of this has been during the cooler months, the cheese doesn't go moldy so fast. ;) Other than cheese and beer, nothing I have aboard needs cooling.
One good thing about uncooled beer is that the domestic American "beers" (as a former home brewer, I use that title loosely) gain more beer flavor when not so cold. That's about all I can say good about American beer, except that it is cheaper than what I prefer. :D
Come warm weather, I'll have to add "bread" to that list, I think. This summer I did use just an icebox, but even dockside that gets tedious (thus my regret at giving away the AC/DC cooler).
It's been nice having one less "thing" to "worry" about. And it makes you *really* appreciate cold beer. ;D
One of my surprise discoveries was that there is a *noticeable* difference in the quality of different cheeses (yes, I love cheese (and beer and brats), I was born in Wisconsin, deal with it ;)). For instance, Land O' Lakes brand keeps *much* longer and with less noticeable breakdown than the gorcery-store brand of cheese. I imagine that this is due to the use of extenders/volumizers in the cheaper cheese.
I have read that hard cheeses keep better. To date I have simply been using what I can get easily at the grocery store, nothing fancy.
One food product that I have come to love since "losing my cool" is the pump-spray Smart Balance butter stuff. Good flavor, small bottle lasts a long time, and it goes great in recipes as well as right on top of popcorn. :)
QuoteMy mayo, never refrigerated, is over a month old now. Maybe 6 weeks or so.
You, Sir, are a wild man. :P
;D
I can not find any refrigeration units that come anywhere near fitting into my energy budget. I used to hike, and never carried a cooler in the woods, but my first mate is still attached to shore based tate for something cool.
So '5day cooler' for times when ice is available will 'do' just hate to store that thing when it is not needed.
If any one is interested...'good old boat' magazine this month has a GREAT article on preserving meats in jars for extended 'non-refridgerated' cruises.Very in depth explanation for doing it at home and good pics to boot. Well worth the price of the magazine.
Oh Ya....S V Faith...there is a great article on a Triton owner who took the guts out of a garage sale $20 mini fridge and rebuilt his ice box with it. I'll look for the article and post it if I can still find it. found it http://biomaterials.bme.northwestern.edu/triton411/fridge.html
No refer for us on Triska either. Most places here in the Puget Sound are within a few days of each other and most have ice. I find a good cooler keeps everything cool enough for several days. It always lasts untill we reach the next port with ice. I do use a space blanket on top of everything to hold the cool in. In addition unless your in a small bay or shallow area the waters here are very cold. 42 to 43Deg average all year long. Bag the perishables and put them overboard.
THanks Frank. I appreciate it but when I talk about my 'energy budget' I mean my daily current use expressed as Amp Hours (ah).
I have a friend who did this same conversion on his Islander 32 (the dorm fridge to boat refer) and it works great. I just can't justify the power use for the utility of just keeping stuff cold. I really like the ice box mod you have done to your boat, now that is well planned out quality work!
I do make one big concession to being at the dock in the form of a 'carry-on' ac unit that I use on the hottest of nights. I hate having anything onboard that I can't imagine taking with me across the pond. I nearly bought a small microwave once to use at the dock, but it does not fit my vision so I passed (I know many on larger boats use them, and are happy with the performance).
The ac stays at the dock, and I prefer to sleep on the hook where I can use the windscoop to get a little breeze. More quiet and draws less current too!
Here is an idea that I came across while looking for some information for someone with an S2 in my marina.
It is a spin off of the modified dorm refrigerator idea, but
without all that muss and bother of cutting up the old fridge.
Lot's of room for frosty beverege!
(http://www.s291.com/public_html/s2gallery/hull10-KeyWest/1.JPG)
(Yes, that is a full size refer box on the starboard side)
:D
yeah , that is another way of doing it.... ;D
Very organized...sea going type of cock pit. Can ya actually sit there??? Least ya wouldn't have to get up or reach far to grab a cold one
I tried the thermo electic cooler and it ran my house battery down way too fast. I purchased an Engel refrigerator/freezer unit about 4 months ago. I got the 45 and ordered it from Compact Appliances thru EBay. I find that any setting over 1 causes the food to freeze. This is great because 1 is very low power draw. You can pack a lot in it. I was going to be anchored out on a trip for 7 days, I froze meat at home, vacuum sealed and wrapped in bubble wrap. Placed it in the bottom and it really lasted. It has a brain, whatever the power source avail. it uses, electric or DC. I know on small boats, space is an issue. I have a couch with a back that lifted up to make a bunk. I removed the back of the couch and sat it on the end by bulkhead, strapped it and so far so good. If disconnected from the power source, it stays cold for several hours. Lugging bags of ice can really be a pain, so this is pretty "cool " for me. 8)
hay that boat looks like it has a Bayliner Buccaneer rudder..
I came up with an idea for mayo and ketchup, hot sauce, ect....just get those little packs like you find in the mc donalds, and burger king. everytime I go to a place that has a bunch of them in a bin, I grab a few extra. I figure I can get the stuff by the case from the supplier before I leave the docks. I figure it last longer then a single jar.
Bill
Connie - Did the company you ordered from have the best price you could find or something else which made you choose them to buy from? The Engel website shows their US base being down in Fl, I was wondering if they have "warehouse specials". :)
Bill - There is a website, maybe someone knows it or perhaps you can Google it, that sells condiments and ingredients in those small packages. That said, most of the stuff doesn't need refrigeration, so it's cheaper to buy a bottle than it would be to buy packets. And, *that* said, it is even cheaper to get it free. :D lol I don't own a bottle of ketchup, McD's and Wendys etc always give you so many more than you need... ;D
;)
Well,on First Born, I use an Ice Chest..For a sundowner I like my Single Malt with ICE..
On TPIII (32') We have a very good refrig. which uses power for 5 minutes per hr to make Ice in the Tropics(Sea of Cortez) Still like my Single Malt With ICE..
Using Solar Panels we were at anchor in trhe Sea of Cortez for 34 days, had refrig on, wifeys T.V. with antenna my computer and what ever else we needed..NEVER once TURNED ON ENGINE!!
K- I had been doing a lot of internet surfing, gathering info on units. I went with Engel because of power consumption and lots of customer satisfaction. This company had the best price through an ebay hit. There was no extra charge for shipping or taxes either so the price was the price. It was here in just a few days. The warehouse is in FL. Not sure if they have warehouse sales...maybe even a scratch and dent deal could be had. 8) Maybe contact them and check it out. Let me know what you find out. Good luck! It comes recommended by me.
Quote from: hearsejr on January 07, 2006, 11:07:15 PM
hay that boat looks like it has a Bayliner Buccaneer rudder..
The boat is an 'S-2', and a good example of what can happen when a liveaboard forgets to get under way for too long.
________________________________________
I am a 'packet grabber' too, but they run out fairly quickly. I also use regular bottles for trips though, most condaments don't need to be refrigerated anyway.... Most say 'refigerate for best flavor', if you read the lables on a couple different brands.
Ketchup, Mustard, and even Mayo (for those who like to live dangerously) can be kept at room temp. I use smaller bottles (especally mayo) and don't use anything but a clean knife to dip into them (or squeeze).
Has not killed me yet... ;D
For my cruise, I am thinking of getting an Engel. I have an average size icebox with about 2-3 inches of insulation-no way to add more without removing the whole galley and starting over-not happening!
How long does it take the Engel to freeze a 1/2 gal milk jug solid (water to ice); and how many amps does it take to do this freezing. Maybe I can use the Engel to make the ice and then use this jug of ice to cool the NorSea icebox-the NorSea icebox is bigger than the Engel and would be more convenient to use. I could make a series of ice jugs to replace the ice as it melts.
I can certainly do without ice and cold drinks; but I have approx. 300 amp hrs of battery with a good charging system and very little to use the amp hrs-just lights, caframo fans, laptop and a VHF radio. So, maybe it would be good to have a cold drink once in a while, and some cold cheese, eggs, etc.
I have an Engel M27 refrigerator/freezer unit. The unit has a dial that goes from off to 5. Anything greater than about 1.5 puts it into freezer mode as far as I am concerned...since water and iced tea freezes solid. Earlier this year, I put a gallon of Poland Spring water into the unit, that was at room temperature, and about eight hours later it was a third frozen, when the unit was set to max freeze. This was operating on shore power, so I don't know what the draw on the batteries would have been like.
Otherwise, I've run the unit for a couple of days on my boat, set to about 2 and not had much issue with battery life. My house bank is two T105 golf cart batteries, with a total of about 220 Amp hours. Mind you, I pre-cooled most of the contents, but the daily high temperature was about mid 80s.
I think you'd be pretty happy with the unit.
Wow.
2.8 amps for 20 minutes out of the hour is 19.4 amp-hours per day. It's interesting to me, from a philosophical perspective, how to many that's peanuts but to some that's a WHOPPING BIG amount of juice(*). It's also interesting that a single 100W solar panel should be able to keep up that freezer with only a few of hours of good daylight per day.
Hmmmm.
(*) I think my "ideal" would be no batts and no electricity on board.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 31, 2006, 02:47:47 PM
2.8 amps for 20 minutes out of the hour is 19.4 amp-hours per day. It's interesting to me, from a philosophical perspective, how to many that's peanuts but to some that's a WHOPPING BIG amount of juice(*).
He, he, he,
My boat (same size as yours John) outfitted in "tricked-out cruising mode" can run this freezer for two weeks without charging (assuming 80% DOD and no other electricity usage). The only problem would be finding room for Engel.
Quote from: sailor on November 02, 2006, 12:24:38 PM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on October 31, 2006, 02:47:47 PM
2.8 amps for 20 minutes out of the hour is 19.4 amp-hours per day. It's interesting to me, from a philosophical perspective, how to many that's peanuts but to some that's a WHOPPING BIG amount of juice(*).
He, he, he,
My boat (same size as yours John) outfitted in "tricked-out cruising mode" can run this freezer for two weeks without charging (assuming 80% DOD and no other electricity usage). The only problem would be finding room for Engel.
I have a good place for it in the head; what man needs a head when at sea anyway. No, I do not do the rail dangle; I use a bottle or a bucket when at sea.
Saw them at the boat show today, look real nice; think I will get one tomorrow (talking about the Engel, not the bucket).
castaway -
Connie/"Pixie Dust" has an Engel - the 45 model IIRC - that I experienced for a weeks cruise earlier this year. I came away really impressed by it. I don't like complexity, and had been planning on going with only an icebox, but now plan instead to get an Engel. It seems simple enough, quiet and efficient, and lots of users claim loo-oong service lives.
My thinking is that there may be times when its freezing ability may come in very handy, besides just for sunset cocktails, that is... :) I have been learning how to fish for deepwater species with an eye towards using this knowledge to supplement my larder while at sea. A small freezer like the Engel will come in handy when I catch a 10# or larger fish (a not at all uncommon size out there, actually kind of small), I'll be able to use more of the fish by being able to keep it cold.
This has been informative. I'll look inot one myself.
where is Pixie Dust??
Quote from: Zen on November 07, 2006, 11:55:06 AM
This has been informative. I'll look inot one myself.
where is Pixie Dust??
Here she is, here she is!! She has been dragging her Pixie Behind all over Florida and trying to get to PD to work on her on weekends. :D
I love my Engel. Kurt is right. She has 5 settings. If I put it on 2, things start to freeze and get icy. 5 is the freezer setting. 1 is adequate to keep things really cold. It holds lots of stuff and uses very little energy. I had a 105 amp house battery and my solar panel and in 1 long week, we did not have to start the engine once to charge batteries. We also ran the stereo nonstop, lights, fans, etc. I cannot recommend it enough. One of my favorite gadgets!
I found the best price at Compac Appliances online. No shipping or sales tax either. I figure with what I am saving in not buying bagged ice, I will have payed for it in a yr.
To impress Kurt with gadgets.... that is accomplishing something. ;)
Quote from: The Edge on December 24, 2005, 09:57:20 AM
Refrigeration is not a neccessity for me. I am a minimalist. I use a cooler that runs off AC/DC for when I'm motoring or at a slip. I prefer to be on the hook when I am away from home port, so I use nothing - including NO ICE.
FWIW,
I am mostly in the 'with Sarah' colum here..... I do have a minor ice habbit, but I am working one it. ;D
I will contribute that IMHO those cheap thermal plate refrigerators that you plug into a cigarette lighter plug and use in a car are not the thing for a boat.
I gave one a try for a while... sold it at the flea market. It drew much more currrent, and did not cool very well. Others I have spoken to have had similar experiences.
Connie...I tried a 'search' of compac appliances....no go. do you have the link?? Thanks F
I think she means http://www.compactappliance.com
I use to use, and still have an Igloo Survivor. It runs on AC, DC, and propane an it will make ice. It is the size of a moderately large cooler. I was thinking about converting to a built in marine refrigerator, but a recent article in Good Old Boat by a guy who is using a portable refrigerator like the Igloo (but more updated) has me thinking maybe I'll just upgrade the Igloo. The cost of the GOB project was substantially less than the cost of installing a marine unit.
From GOB...
Faux fridge (Simple Solutions) Carl Hunt Issue #50-sept/oct 06 Page 78-79
• Faux fridge: It was buy a new refrigeration system to replace his icebox or get creative. Carl got creative and added a portable refrigerator for less money. Key words: Don Birdwell, capacity, cooler sizes, power requirements, Adler/Barbour CF-50 Fisheries Supply, batteries, alternator, Powerline 100-amp alternator, Downwind Marine, Dr. Electron, Alan Katz, Isotherm compressor, controller, holding plate, testing the unit Portable refrigerator provides economical ice
http://www.compactappliance.com/index.jsp
is the web site where I bought my Engel. Sorry for leaving off the "t". Late night typing and my boat is a Com-pac 27/2. :D The 43 qt is $ 659 currentl. It only uses .7 Amps in refrigeration mode.
2.5 Amps in Freezer mode. Cannot say enough good things about it.
Quote from: Pixie Dust on November 22, 2006, 11:18:08 PM
http://www.compactappliance.com/index.jsp
is the web site where I bought my Engel. Sorry for leaving off the "t". Late night typing and my boat is a Com-pac 27/2. :D The 43 qt is $ 659 currentl. It only uses .7 Amps in refrigeration mode.
2.5 Amps in Freezer mode. Cannot say enough good things about it.
I see they also sell some neat wine coolers, too. ;) Howdy Connie, long time no see.
Mike
Hi Mike. I feel bad that I have been neglecting my Sailfar friends and site reads. I wish I could use Pixie Dust to get this house packed. :D
I had to call it quits on gadgets. :) No wine coolers this trip. Only room left on PD is for me and the food... and wine.
I did order a Grundig 5 SSB receiver for weather. It also comes with a smaller windup version. Should be here in a few days. Last Gadget!! :D ;)
Ok, I have re-evaluated my position on onboard refrigeration.
Having no icebox, and no desire to build one, I have opted for one of the small self contained units, specifically the Engle.
The other one I looked at was the WAECO ADLER BARBOUR, now sold by west Marine.
Here is the add;
QuoteWAECO ADLER BARBOUR CF-025DC 7895808 Only $569.99 USD
Fully hermetic Danfoss BD35F compressor with integrated control electronics, low-voltage protection adjustable for consumer or starter battery by means of a slide switch, electronic fuse/automatic reverse pole protection, dynamically ventilated wire condenser, aluminum rollbond evaporator.
• 24 quarts
• 12/24 volts DC
• 35 watts
• +50°F to 0°F, adjustable via electronic thermostat with LED indicator
• 26.5 lbs.
• CFC-free polyurethane foam
• DC connection cable, detachable wire basket
• Detachable lid (lid mount at the front), interior light
• Vertical space for standing 2-liter returnable bottles
CF special electronics
Notice anything missing? How about the current use?
The Engle uses little current, and fits into my energy budget. I like the fact that there is only one moving part in the compressor.
(http://www.thermaldynamicssales.com/images/Engel%2520Compressor%2520C-Section.jpg)
I looked at a few models of the Engle,
The Engle 15, 14 Quart
(http://www.compactappliance.com/images/us/local/products/detail/MRFD015DA_dt.jpg)
• Outside dimensions: 14.5"H x 11"W x 17"L
• Inside dimensions: 13.75"H x 7.5"W x 7.5"L
This would have fit best onboard, and the storage space would probably have been adequate for my needs. The issue with it (for me) is that is has a slightly higher advertised current use then the larger models (probably due to less insulation).
Then is was the 16q, or the 22q. They both have the same advertised current use... .7 to 2.5a
• Model: MT17FU1
• Fits 24 cans (12 Fl.oz) Dimensions: 14.2"h x 21.1"w x 12"d
(http://www.compactappliance.com/images/us/local/products/detail/MT17FU1_dt.jpg)
Then it was the 22q model, (model 27)
(http://www.compactappliance.com/images/us/local/products/detail/MT27FU1_dt.jpg)
Power Consumption: 0.6 - 2.3 Amps
Fits 30 cans (12 Fl.oz • Dimensions: 21"h x 12"w x 18.2"d
From there you go to the 34 and 43 quart models.
I like them for their capacity, but they would not fit on my boat without some modification.
Model: MT35FU1
Volume: 34 qt. / equivalent to 54 12oz. cans
• Outside dimensions: 16"H x 14 1/3"W x 25 1/2"L
• Inside dimensions: 15.4"H x 10.8"W x 12.4"L
0.7 Amps in refrigeration mode; 2.5 Amps in freezer mode
Weight: 46.3 pounds
Model: MT45FU1
Volume: 43 qt. / equivalent to 60 12oz. Cans
• Outside dimensions: 20"h x 14 1/3"w x 25 1/2"l
• Inside Dimensions: L 15.4" x W 10.8" x H 16.4"
0.7 Amps in refrigeration mode; 2.5 Amps in freezer mode
Weight: 52.9 pounds
I took the measurements out to my boat, and figured out that the model 27 was the right one for me.
I like the model 43, but the 25" length gets me. I would have to stow it lengthwise in my v-berth, or rebuild my interior to accommodate it. This would take up too much space, and the lid would not open more then ½ way.
The 18.5" Model 27 should sit at the aft end of my V-berth (on the port side) and the way the lid opens from the end should make it a perfect fit.
Looking around I found Compact appliance (the link Connie suggested) beat all others, and was actually cheaper when I checked out then their own advertised price! (It lists for $569, and sold for $534!)
I will post my impressions when it arrives.
They did give you the current draw on the Adler Barbour- 12 volts at 35 watts. You just have to do the calculation yourself ;D
When installing it, think about ways to install additional insulation around it, and provide good ventilation to the refrigeration elements.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 07, 2007, 09:31:26 AM
They did give you the current draw on the Adler Barbour- 12 volts at 35 watts. You just have to do the calculation yourself ;D
And with those numbers, I think the Engel is a no-brainer winner.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 21, 2006, 10:40:03 AM
I use to use, and still have an Igloo Survivor. It runs on AC, DC, and propane an it will make ice. It is the size of a moderately large cooler.
I was thinking about one of these:-
(http://www.obrienscamping.co.uk/images/Portables/RC1180TranMed.gif)
http://www.obrienscamping.co.uk/portable/RC1180.htm
Dometic Electrolux RC1180 Camping Portable Fridge Freezer supplied by OBriens Camping. Dometic Electrolux RC 1180 powered by gas mains and 12v.
The gas attracts me for being independent of shore power, how did you get on in practice? My understanding is that when on gas they like to be level - not so easy on a sailboat!
Were you running on gas whilst moored or did you also mix it up with Electric away from shorepower?
I think I'd still stick with the Engel. Less to go wrong with it... and if you've got good solar power, as I do, you can run them pretty much all the time with little downside.
Hi all,
I am new here, but Engel does offer extra insulation for there prducts. Here is a link for one .....
http://www.compactappliance.com/xq/JSP.detailmain/itemID.14632/itemType.PRODUCT/iProductID.14632/qx/shopping/product/TBAG17G.htm
Welcome aboard, Freesail. :)
Craig - I'm still bouncing around on which one I'll eventually get, will like to take a look at yours when we come up to get the Smollett30. The larger models (35, 45) are almost exactly the same width as the Ariel's port side drawers on the main bulkhead, and would also fit well in the other 2 dimensions in this space. I've considered what I was going to do with those drawers anyway, since they waste a lot of space, even though they are convenient. Seems like as good a spot as any to put the Engel. I also pwant to add some insulation around the icebox portion of the Engel, while leaving the working part plenty of room for breathing. I think I have come up with a way to pull that off. Having even only a radiant barrier around it might help with energy consumption.
Quote from: Freesail on March 08, 2007, 04:40:03 PM
Hi all,
I am new here, but Engel does offer extra insulation for there prducts. Here is a link for one .....
Thanks and welcome aboard, I am looking at that (the $99 seems a little high to me)...
CapnK wrote;
QuoteCraig - I'm still bouncing around on which one I'll eventually get, will like to take a look at yours when we come up to get the Smollett30. The larger models (35, 45) are almost exactly the same width as the Ariel's port side drawers on the main bulkhead, and would also fit well in the other 2 dimensions in this space. I've considered what I was going to do with those drawers anyway, since they waste a lot of space, even though they are convenient. Seems like as good a spot as any to put the Engel. I also pwant to add some insulation around the icebox portion of the Engel, while leaving the working part plenty of room for breathing. I think I have come up with a way to pull that off. Having even only a radiant barrier around it might help with energy consumption.
Yes, that is probably a good location. If you were going ot mount it there, you could fit a model 45 without much of a problem... My restriction to the V-berth is what made me go to the model 27. The 25" length would have to have it sideways, and then the lid would not open very far without hitting the overhead in the v-berth.
I am looking at the insulation also. I know that the vents on the back of the unit have ot be open, but if the $99 cover that Engle makes can increase the efficiency then I think some added insulation would help also.... I will wait and see when it comes in.
Has anyone who has an Engel run it with, and without the insulation jacket?
Maybe had the unit long enough and then bought the jacket so that they could talk to the gain in efficiency?
I believe I've seen the insulation on the hot wire site for $70.00.
Hijack - wow, check this A30 out - stellar condition!
http://tinyurl.com/2b28lc
(http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/6/0/7/8/1607882_1.jpg?1164738870000)
Pretty boat... :D
"engel" report. I took Connie's leed and advice in purchasing my lil engel.While I go iceless most often while solo...the small engel is nice with Judy here. It is fairly quiet,freezes on any setting above .7 on a 1 to 4 scale and is VERY efficient @ .7 amp draw!! Nice unit. I took Connie's advice and kept watching 'compact appliances' site until a sale came on. Got it -20%,free frieght,no tax ;-) Would recomend them and an engel
Yes, the engels are very nice refrigerators, and relatively quiet and very efficient. Also, the swing motor compressor has only one moving part, so they tend to be pretty reliable mechanically.
I knew you guys would wise up to the Engels. :)) What took you so long? LOL
Cold while being enery efficient is a wonderful thing. I too am considering putting some insulation of some kind around mine to help out while in the warmer climates.
Connie-
their insulated bag seems to work quite well, from the people I know who have used it.
The Engle came in, and is on the boat. Fits very nicely, I did trim back the shelf on the port side of the V-berth so it would have some 'wiggle room'.
It ahs both a 110, and a 12v plug. Does anyone KNOW if they can both be pluggedin at the same time? I am wondering if it does not default to 12vdc when 115 is not present?
I scanned the manual, (now on the boat) and did not notice if it said.
Thanks,
I have both connected permanently on my boat....probably have had both turned on at the same time at one point or another by accident. Don't believe it will hurt the unit...as I haven't fried mine yet... ;)
Thanks,
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 13, 2007, 08:26:00 PM
The Engle came in, and is on the boat. Fits very nicely, I did trim back the shelf on the port side of the V-berth so it would have some 'wiggle room'.
It ahs both a 110, and a 12v plug. Does anyone KNOW if they can both be plugged in at the same time? I am wondering if it does not default to 12vdc when 115 is not present?
I scanned the manual, (now on the boat) and did not notice if it said.
Thanks,
I found this;
QuoteOperates off 12/24V DC or 110V AC. It automatically switches power from 12/24 volts to 110 volts
Ahh... RTFM...that's cheating.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 15, 2007, 10:30:52 AM
Ahh... RTFM...that's cheating.
Only when absolutely required... 8)
Quote from: Pixie Dust on January 07, 2006, 10:16:51 PM
I tried the thermo electic cooler and it ran my house battery down way too fast. I purchased an Engel refrigerator/freezer unit about 4 months ago. I got the 45 and ordered it from Compact Appliances thru EBay. I find that any setting over 1 causes the food to freeze. This is great because 1 is very low power draw. You can pack a lot in it. I was going to be anchored out on a trip for 7 days, I froze meat at home, vacuum sealed and wrapped in bubble wrap. Placed it in the bottom and it really lasted. It has a brain, whatever the power source avail. it uses, electric or DC. I know on small boats, space is an issue. I have a couch with a back that lifted up to make a bunk. I removed the back of the couch and sat it on the end by bulkhead, strapped it and so far so good. If disconnected from the power source, it stays cold for several hours. Lugging bags of ice can really be a pain, so this is pretty "cool " for me. 8)
Good info Pixie. I just bought an Engel 45 from Compact Appliances to replace my old Igloo Survivor. The Survivor worked great, but was a real DC energy hog.
I used to have one the gas (propaine) frig's in a travel trailer. Worked ok. However, it must be LEVEL to work, unless you have a cat, these do not work well.
2.5 amp curent draw for 24 hrs = (2.5 amps x 12 v = 30 watts) X 24 hrs = 720 watts per day. There is also heat generated by this inside the cabin. If you get 8 hours of sun a day, you will need a 900 watt solar pannel working at 100 percent.
A bit much for me. I will stick to the ice chest or do without.
on edit corrected math
Quote from: Lynx on May 21, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
I used to have one the gas (propaine) frig's in a travel trailer. Worked ok. However, it must be LEVEL to work, unless you have a cat, these do not work well.
2.5 amp curent draw for 24 hrs = (2.5 amps x 12 v = 300 watts) X 24 hrs = 7200 watts per day. There is also heat generated by this inside the cabin. If you get 8 hours of sun a day, you will need a 900 watt solar pannel working at 100 percent.
A bit much for me. I will stick to the ice chest or do without.
FWIW,
Mine has a stated draw of .7a in refrigerator mode, or 2.5a in freezer mode. It seems to run between 20% and 30% of the time.
Quote from: Lynx on May 21, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
I used to have one the gas (propaine) frig's in a travel trailer. Worked ok. However, it must be LEVEL to work, unless you have a cat, these do not work well.
2.5 amp curent draw for 24 hrs = (2.5 amps x 12 v = 300 watts) X 24 hrs = 7200 watts per day. There is also heat generated by this inside the cabin. If you get 8 hours of sun a day, you will need a 900 watt solar pannel working at 100 percent.
A bit much for me. I will stick to the ice chest or do without.
Ummm.. 2.5 A x 12 V = 30 Watts last I checked. Also, most refrigerators do not run 24x7, but only a portion of each hour, unless you're in Death Valley at high noon and have painted the refrigerator black and left it out in the sun.
My Engel M27, runs less than 20% of the time when it is set as a freezer. I don't remember what the current draw is, but the batteries seem to have little trouble with it.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 22, 2007, 04:19:15 PM
...... unless you're in Death Valley at high noon and have painted the refrigerator black and left it out in the sun.
And the sailing sucks too... ;D
(unless syou are on one of those land sail car things.. but this site is not about those now, is it?)QuoteMy Engel M27, runs less than 20% of the time when it is set as a freezer. I don't remember what the current draw is, but the batteries seem to have little trouble with it.
Yes, the figures I quotesd were the ratings for the Engel M27. .7a ref, 2.5a in freezer mode.
AdriftAtSea - thanks, I correct the math. Per my understanding, inorder to keep meat good for days, you need temps below 38 degrees. I also understand that there is a few factors that determing how much the frig runs, like outside temp and insulation and times opened and inside temp and size of unit and how cold things are before putting then in.
What are our estimates of total daily wattage?
If you figure the unit uses 30 Watts in Freezer mode, per s/v Faith's numbers, and that it runs about 25% of the time, you get a daily use of 30 W x 6 hours or 180 WH...
If you have a 130 W fixed mount solar panel, working for five hours a day at 50% efficiency, you'll get 130 W x 2.5 H or 325 WH, even accounting for conversion losses due to the charging system, you'll probably be able to power the refrigerator off of the solar panels for a very long time, and I am being fairly conservative in my estimates of how much power an 130 W panel will/can generate... and probably a bit conservative on the power the Engel M27 will use, since mine will start to freeze things at any setting above 1.5 (out of 5), and probably uses less than the 2.5 Amps that s/v Faith has quoted.
Thanks, I do not think that I have enough space for 130 w of solar panel. The 2 - 20 watts take up quite a bit of deck space when deployed. I may have to put this off for some time.
Lynx-
You could probably get by with a 60W panel. :D Or add another 20 watt panel to the two you've already got.
I may do that. The only thing that I want the frig for is to keep meat in. That would mean freezing temps and a little more power usage. I could also get by with a smaller unit.
So often we hear sad stories about suppliers, I to have had my share of "experiences", however sometimes we hear of suppliers who go the extra mile so to speak. I had an experience this week of that nature. Last week I ordered an Engel ref/freezer for the boat. It arrived yesterday, The cardboard box had a black mark in one area (perhaps a forklift truck tire mark) when I opeoned the box there was damage to the unit in that area, rear -side corner of the unit pushed in approx 1/2 inch. I called Compact Appliance (supplier) and spoke to "Kelly". We live in a rural area and we are usually not around to sign for things when UPS makes their deliveries. I told her about the damage and that I did not know if this would effect operation of the fridg, as I had not plugged it in. She told me I had two choices, I could reject it and they would immeditally ship another unit and have UPS pick up damaged unit at the same time, or if I was satisified with the operation of the unit they would give me a price adjustment for the damage. There are still suppliers that care about their relationship with customers, and they deserve recognition--thanks Compact Appliance.
I also ordered my Engle from Compact appliance. I was very happy with the service, and the unit is great!
Which model did you go for?
Just make sure that the tubing hasn't been damaged at all. If the tubing is kinked in the least, it will leak coolant, and the system will stop working. I don't think that will be a problem, but it would depend on where the damage is and what unit you have.
not sure of the model#(I'm at work) it is the 43 quart size. I am not too concerned about the damage it appears to be cosmetic only---- however when I ordered it I was promised a 5 year extended warrenty. along with free shipping I could not refuse!!!!
I have an Engel 45 on my 30 foot boat. I installed a davit and I am placing 2 - 130 watt solar panels on top of the davit. Yes it will take up most of my stern and I will need to board my dink from the side of the boat.
Freesail--
Welcome to Sailfar.net. :) Where do you normally sail???
I purchased my 1st engel @ compact appliance. Had good pricing and service. Seems they no longer carry them. Any leeds as to a new (cheap ;D) supplier?
I've been thinking about useing one of the conversion kits like this one http://us.binnacle.com/BBQ-/-Stoves-/-Heaters-Portable-Freezers-Refrigerators/c7_307/p5682/WAECO-COOLMATIC-COOLING-KIT-(DIY)/product_info.html to change my ice box over, has anyone had any experiance with these?
We have been super happy with our Coleman Stirling engine cooled fridge/freezer. While Coleman is no longer selling them you can still get them from Global Cooling ...Or Twinbird
In one word..AWESOME
http://www.globalcooling.com/products.html
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Loosemoose - Not much info --Price-- availability --- etc. on the globalcooling website. Sent them an e-mail. How would you rate them against say the Engle 40 qt marine model? Best price I've found is $641 on the engle. I second Frank - know of a cheaper source - I know where to find a cheaper buyer....
jim
I paid about $425 for our Coleman which is this model http://fpsc.twinbird.jp/en/sc_c925_box_e.html I believe the Global Cooling Price is around $700.
We have had flawless performance... Three years running and never problem.
I have been told that some of the Coleman outlet stores still may have these at super deep discount...
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
we have 3 engel fridges in the family, a 22l 30l and a 42l . we also have an 80l waeco. the 30l engel was purchased in the early 80's and has traveled millions of kilometers in an interstate prime mover. The 30l was only replaced by the 22l because of size restrictions in the prime mover my father purchased in 1996. it also has traveled in excess of 1.5 million kilometers in its time. On substandard Australian roads. neither have given any trouble in all that time. testament to the brand :) also there is an insulated bag/cover thing available for the engels . they make a big difference.
here is an article on fridge consumption done by an Australian 4x4 magazine ..... scroll down about half way to see it
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=cf4d82845d4a1bd252a439a7accf4799&t=34490&page=3
Matt,
Thanks for breathing life into this thread. As it happens I have been contemplating adding an Engel cooler to use as a supplemental freezer. I think there is room under the aft berth.
On my recent cruise in the Bahamas I discovered that freezer space was of greater value than reefer space. I had to take a bunch of frozen veg to Janet's house (and to her sister's!) and replace it with canned. It put a bit of a crimp in some of my cooking. Edible, but not up to usual standards.
So I'm thinking I can squeeze a small Engel in under the bunk between the battery box, A/P controller, an A/C, and the steering gear box. I've got to go in there to run some wires anyway so I may as well measure.
Auspicious?
If you're going to install an Engel under the berth, make sure it has decent ventilation, as that will make the refrigerator more efficient. :D Adding a small 12VDC muffin fan and a louvered opening might be a good idea.
Grog for the input, Matt. :) I hope to be able to get my own Engel this year, and join the happy family. ;)
Okay, I am confused.
Looking at the Engel Specs, they say it draws .7 - 2.5 amps. My question is; does that mean .7 - 2.5 amps over a 24 hour period for a total of 60 amps? Or, because it's temperature controled, does it only run 25% (shot in the dark number) of the time drawing between .7 and 2.5 based on ambient temperature? I know there are more than one variable, but there has to be some ideas out there.
It seems too vague to me when trying to figure out how much capacity/charging capacity is required.
If someone can explain that to me, it would be much appreciated.
That's the amperage for while it is running, so worse case scenario is the 60 amps you mentioned.
But, using as a fridge is generally the lower number (the higher number is for 'freezer'), at least that's my understanding. If so, that's less than 20 amp-hr per day in fridge mode.
Looking forward to hearing from Craig, Dan and any other Engel owners (Connie, too if she will chime in).
Actually, I did find a great thread here on sailfar. I just forgot to search for the most important key word "Engel" Doh!
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,738.0.html
.7 Amps about 30% of the time so around 17 amp hrs on reefer mode and
2.5 amps on freezer mode for similar time so around 60 amp hrs.
Thanks again, I just need to be smarter about my searches.
Good job. ;D
I read this and was thinking that the numbers were in another thread...
... I went ahead and merged this into the refrigeration thread.
Does the Engel heat the boat cabin when it is already VERY hot outside (and inside)?
the linkt i posted on the last page has some really good information on engal power consumption.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 19, 2010, 09:13:56 PM
Does the Engel heat the boat cabin when it is already VERY hot outside (and inside)?
It has to. Any refrigeration is essentially pumping heat from one place to another, to which is added waste heat from the machinery.
Quote from: Auspicious on July 20, 2010, 11:44:31 AM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 19, 2010, 09:13:56 PM
Does the Engel heat the boat cabin when it is already VERY hot outside (and inside)?
It has to. Any refrigeration is essentially pumping heat from one place to another, to which is added waste heat from the machinery.
Yes, of course. :'(
I mean, how much do you NOTICE it. Craig, for example, used his in the Bahamas, and I just wanted to know his thoughts on the COMFORT CHANGE of using the Engel inside the boat.
Ahh -- it was a PRACTICAL question. I spent a couple of weeks in friends in the Bahamas in '08 who used an Engel freezer. It didn't seem to make a discernible difference in temperature inside the boat. I'm pretty sure that Jay and I had a bigger impact on boat temperature than the freezer. Diana of course simply glowed and didn't sweat at all. *grin*
It really doesn't have a practical effect on the interior temps CS.
My better half bought me a Norcold from Defender last week--from all I can see it is identical with my Engel. I have not taken covers off yet to view the compressors. Grandkids on the boat for the next week- i will take cover off and check when they are gone. The lids are interchangeable Norcold MRFT40 and Engel MT45F-U1. Lovers in sheet metal identical. Other than name plate and labeling everything is identical. Norcold instructions say that both low voltage and 110 can be connected at the same time. Ref will try to run on 110 first then switch to 12 if necessary. My instructions that i received with the Engel do not say this--previous posts say Engel works the same way. A call to Engel confirmed this. This is a great feature when traveling and hooking up to 110 as I am at the present time. In 2 weeks or so I will be away from 110 and will be able to tell if my 260 watts of solar can keep up. I do not use my fold up table, so both units sit on the sole. 1" strapping secures them from sliding around.
Engel and Norcold are sister companies, and the units are made in the same factory. BTW, I run an Engel MT27 (22 qt) unit off of a single 130 Watt panel, so, unless you have some high load devices running other than the refrigerator, the panels should be able to keep up with one unit, but two might be too much.
I'm about to get WAY too technical here, so skip this if you like. If you're a nerd like me, you can read on.
Regarding cabin heat, the frig or freezer is simply a heat pump, so it "adds" whatever heat it "removes" from from inside the frig/freezer. So, putting in cool stuff or ice will obviously not only save you amp hours, but also cabin heat. Most of the heat being removed is simply heat coming in through the insulation from the cabin, so it can basically be ignored when you're trying to figure out how much hotter it's making the cabin. Think of that heat as simply moving in a circle.
In addition to that, it's not a perfectly efficient machine and all the electrical energy is rejected as heat. So, if you figure you use 20 amp hours (12 VDC) a day, that would be roughly 240 Watt-hours of energy a day. That's about equivalent to running a 1500W space heater for 10 minutes of the day. ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air conditioning Engineers, to which I belong) estimates a person puts out about 116 Btus per hour. That's about 815 Watt-hours a day. However, unlike the frig, only 2/3's of this number is "dry heat." The other third of it is moisture being added to the air from either breath or evaporating sweat. So, not only does a person make it feel hotter than a decent frig, but they also make it feel muggier :o
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on August 12, 2010, 02:27:26 PM... that would be roughly 240 Watt-hours of energy a day. That's about equivalent to running a 1500W space heater for 10 minutes of the day. ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air conditioning Engineers, to which I belong) estimates a person puts out about 116 Btus per hour. That's about 815 Watt-hours a day.
So my estimate that Jay and I were much more detrimental to heat below than the Engal is correct by a substantial factor!
I'll have to remember to cut down on breathing also. *grin*
Of course, that assumes you're in the cabin all day....
The other day I found a jar of Kimche, that I had made before we had left. It was still good after 2 months. Indeed it may even have improved from ?aging?. It reminded me that I had wanted to share our ideas and experiences about SBLD food and ?going fridge-less?.
The first thing to say is that eating well and good food is important on Louise Michel. ?Good? means meals made mostly from scratch, using simple, wholesome ingredients, organic where possible, with plenty of fruit and vegetables. Our diet is a mix of Mediterranean, South and East Asian dishes.
This means lots of grains, some beans and plenty of vegetables. It's not really vegetarian because we do eat meat, fish and dairy; but only in small quantities.
Beans and rice, it sounds ascetic even boring, but there's more to beans then pintos and kidneys, or pork & beans in a can. Black beans for example with carrots and other vegetables, make a wonderful soup. Garbanzos [Chick peas] can be used for Couscous [a spicy Moroccan dish], curry and all kinds of other stews. Soaked, dried beans cook in a pressure cooker in a few minutes. We have an old Miromatic I got on Ebay. We do keep a few cans of beans for a quick meal.
Other beans for example mung, aduki and lentil can also be sprouted. Sprouts are simple to do and very nutritious, and best of all don't need cooking, a blessing on a hot day. We also sprout a mix of alfalfa, radish and clover seeds which provide us with fresh greens.
Similarly, grains are more than brown rice and oatmeal. There are dozens of kinds of rice. We eat basmati and jasmine but there are many others. We also eat buckwheat (my favorite), quinoa, bulgar and couscous. The latter cook as fast as ramen noodles. For breakfast we eat a porridge made of thick-cut rolled oats, barley, rye and spelt, and dried fruits. For a cold cereal we have muesli or granola.
Other dried foods we carry include herbs and spices, fruit [apples, raisins, dates, prunes, pears, bananas], seaweed and vegetables [mushrooms, onions, kale, mashed potatoes]. The kale and herbs we grew in our plot at a community garden: the fruit we either foraged or dumpster dived. We dried them in a food dryer before we left. I wish I could say we dried them on the boat.
In the book ?Sailing the Farm? the author talks about a solar food dryer but it was not clear to me whether he had actually made and used one on a boat. It's on my list of projects along with a solar oven. For now we make bread in the pressure cooker following Skylark's recipe.
For now we are coastal cruising which makes possible fairly regular access to grocery stores, although anymore this means a very long walk, or if you are lucky a long bus ride. We stock on onions, potatoes, carrots and other root vegetables [beets, turnips, parsnips, sweet potatoes], cabbage, ginger and garlic. We store these loose in a wicker basket in a cool location. We keep eggs, hard cheese, salami, olives in brine under the floorboards...with the kimche.
Kimche is easy to make and doesn't need refrigeration. There are recipes on the internet. I use green and red cabbage, ginger, thinly sliced root vegetables and some hot spices.
Fermented and dried foods are easy to store and make not having a fridge not a problem and IMHO, provide a much healthier diet than the standard western one.
In the spirit of full disclosure I should admit we drink wine not beer and don't mind non-dairy creamer in our coffee. Ultra-pasteurized half and half keeps for days in the bilge........
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 20, 2010, 11:52:25 AM
Quote from: Auspicious on July 20, 2010, 11:44:31 AM
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 19, 2010, 09:13:56 PM
Does the Engel heat the boat cabin when it is already VERY hot outside (and inside)?
It has to. Any refrigeration is essentially pumping heat from one place to another, to which is added waste heat from the machinery.
Yes, of course. :'(
I mean, how much do you NOTICE it. Craig, for example, used his in the Bahamas, and I just wanted to know his thoughts on the COMFORT CHANGE of using the Engel inside the boat.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on August 08, 2010, 05:07:56 PM
It really doesn't have a practical effect on the interior temps CS.
No, it had no appreciable effect. Heat is removed from such a small area, that even with inefficiencies there is very little difference.
PS....Engels ROCK!!! :o ;D ;)
Quote from: s/v Faith on June 13, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
No, it had no appreciable effect. Heat is removed from such a small area, that even with inefficiencies there is very little difference.
Wow. A three year old question!
Thanks for the answer. I'm still intrigued by an Engel. Not sure it fits my electrical budget, but I remain on the fence.
Gonna be triple digits here today...outside. Inside the boat? Whoa. This is the kind of heat I don't want to supplement AT ALL with extra gadgetry running and what prompted the question. Even a degree or two can make a big difference in perceived comfort.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 13, 2013, 12:19:15 PM
Quote from: s/v Faith on June 13, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
No, it had no appreciable effect. Heat is removed from such a small area, that even with inefficiencies there is very little difference.
Wow. A three year old question!
Thanks for the answer.....
You know I am a little slow..... :P
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 13, 2013, 12:19:15 PM
This is the kind of heat I don't want to supplement AT ALL with extra gadgetry running and what prompted the question. Even a degree or two can make a big difference in perceived comfort.
But on the other hand, the beer will be cold. very cold 8).
My solution:
http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator (http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator)
Ice trays! :D
:D
Quote from: NOMN on June 19, 2013, 06:09:18 PM
My solution:
http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator (http://www.amazon.com/Haier-HCR17W-Cubic-Refrigerator-Freezer/dp/B004R21JK2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370808625&sr=8-1&keywords=haier+refrigerator)
Ice trays :D
:D
? ? ? Why ? ? ?
a year aboard my 35 foot tri with zero refrig, including ice, and 3 months in the Bahamas aboard Tehani with zero refrig, including ice.
It gets to be a royal PITA for long term, away from the dock, cruising.
If it were me, I'd learn to live without. All I use ice for coast wise is to keep drinks cold anyway. NEVER have food in there.
115 V AC on the boat while underway? Are you going to have a 115 V AC live system on your boat full time (ie, a generator)?
Listed spec is 315kW-hr per year, which roughly works about to about 3 amp per day....at 115 V.
That's an energy budget of 30 amp per day just for refrigeration. That's not counting efficiency losses (upwards of 15% or so) if you run it off an inverter on a 12 V system.
An Engel can beat that if you think you really need refrigeration, AND they are designed to run on 12 V so they are more efficient.
However, I agree with Charlie on the need aspect.
I love my Engle.
Just sayin..... ;D
Quote from: s/v Faith on June 19, 2013, 09:20:09 PM
I love my Engle.
Just sayin..... ;D
Lots of emoticons these days... Something in the water? Chemtrails? Chronic pesticide poisoning? GMO's? Facebook overdose?
Just noting... ::)
Quote from: s/v Emerald Tide on June 19, 2013, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: s/v Faith on June 19, 2013, 09:20:09 PM
I love my Engle.
Just sayin..... ;D
Lots of emoticons these days... Something in the water? Chemtrails? Chronic pesticide poisoning? GMO's? Facebook overdose?
Just noting... ::)
:o :o
;) ;D
I for one will have refrigeration on my boat when we go coastal cruising. I've thought about the 40 qt Engel but have decided on the ARB 50qt. Its a little cheaper than Engel but the reviews are just as good if not a little better than Engel.
I can't see going without refrigeration. Catch a fish eat half and throw the other half away. Its like driving a car in south Texas without A/C. Why suffer if you don't have to?
Quote from: Grime on July 29, 2013, 01:45:29 PM
I can't see going without refrigeration. Catch a fish eat half and throw the other half away.
Just to play Devil's Advocate: Is this what people prior to about 100 years ago did?
No. They did not. The human species survived quite well for somewhere around 1 million years without refrigeration.
And, I don't recall ever throwing half our meals away because we did not have a fridge.
The problem is the meme that refrigeration is NEEDED to eat or survive...or just be comfortable. There are lots of things that simply do not need to be refrigerated to be kept safe and edible.
Quote
Its like driving a car in south Texas without A/C. Why suffer if you don't have to?
Nor is it true that lack of refrigeration = "Suffering."
If you want a fridge on your boat...fine. Cool. More power to you.
But PLEASE to do not spread the myth that NOT having one is equivalent to suffering. This use of "suffering" is largely a mindset, anyway.
These things are lifestyle choices; we trade the CONVENIENCE of refrigeration for something gained elsewhere. I promise you we did not "suffer" by not having a fridge, and coastal SC/NC is every bit as hot as Texas, so it's not due to our climate being milder.
Yes human race has survived for a long time without refrigeration. They canned they dried meats, they milked cows daily to feed the baby just to name a few. For some reason that I can not explain I have not seen any cruising boats with meat or fish drying on the life lines. Where do they store the leftovers after a meal? Oh I know there are no left overs because they (2 of them) eat 12lbs of fish they caught today. What about milk. I know there is boxed milk what do you do with the 2 cups left after mash potatoes. The blue water has a white spot.
Since you don't have a frig and no fresh meat or chicken how about bacon. I know there is Spam. There's Roman noodles. Chef Boyardee all those gourmet foods that store without a need for a frig.
Come on over to my boat for dinner anytime and I'll feed you what I eat. If you can get it down at room temp your a better man than me. But then I can get it down with no complaints through my PEG. My meal sure taste better cold. ;D
Suffer might have been the wrong word to choose. For you not having a frig is a inconvenience for someone else its let me off this boat now. Women like the comforts.
Quote from: Grime on July 29, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
For some reason that I can not explain I have not seen any cruising boats with meat or fish drying on the life lines.
Where have you been looking? I know cruisers how have done exactly this.
Quote
Where do they store the leftovers after a meal? Oh I know there are no left overs because they (2 of them) eat 12lbs of fish they caught today.
Food does not have to be kept that cold for a short period of time (a day or two) in most cases. The bilge is often cool enough to store food for a short period of time. Cook only what you can eat in one meal. Eat only foods that can be stored without obsessive refrigeration.
There are many books on the subject. Eric Hiscock's wife, Susan, wrote an excellent part of "Voyaging Under Sail" on this exact topic. James Baldwin has given it attention in his writings. Yves Gelinas solo circumnavigated on an Alberg 30 without refrigeration and yes, he caught (large) fish underway to enhance his diet with fresh protein.
Quote
What about milk.
What about it?
It's an ethnocentric American idea that milk has to be refrigerated. This is 100% a problem with the way the milk is treated to meet government regulations, and nothing else. There are milk products that do not require refrigeration (and I find them quite suitable substitutes myself), and these are the norm in many parts of the world.
People in those areas would think we are nuts that we keep our milk in the cold box.
Quote
I know there is boxed milk what do you do with the 2 cups left after mash potatoes. The blue water has a white spot.
Why throw it away? Save it. It's simply a sold fear that this is a problem. Good grief. Milk in mashed potatoes has been COOKED (killing bacteria) and presumably, you will heat it again before you eat the leftovers the next day...killing bacteria. Keep in reasonably cool (in the bilge, for example, out of the sun anyway), and just how fast do you think those bacteria are going to grow, anyway?
Quote
Since you don't have a frig and no fresh meat or chicken how about bacon.
Who said I don't have fresh meat? We ate fresh meat all the time. Are you planning to be away from markets, like on a blue water cruise?
Deep freezing meats and storing in a well insulated ice box (with block ice, and properly packed), and you can have meat for a couple of weeks. We've done it.
Maybe that's not what you mean by 'fresh meat.' But, even with a fridge, you are not going to buy 50 lbs of meat for a blue water passage and store it unfrozen for the duration of the passage.
Quote
Chef Boyardee all those gourmet foods that store without a need for a frig.
This is just wrong. We've lived aboard for 3 years without a fridge and cruised weeks at a time other times and NEVER ONCE ate Chef Boyardee. The closest we came to that sort of thing was canned soups like Progresso, but by no stretch every day.
On a cruise, for example, we've enjoyed chicken piccata and trimmings. That's just one example.
I don't know where you are getting your information, but it completely does not jive with my own experience. We have eaten quite well aboard, and managed to throw leftovers away no more than we do living in a house with a fridge. ::)
Quote
Come on over to my boat for dinner anytime and I'll feed you what I eat.
Better yet, come to MY boat and see how WE eat. The fridge does not make the meal, the cook does. My wife is a supremely good cook, and I do okay when it's my turn.
Quote
If you can get it down at room temp your a better man than me.
Not sure why I have to eat the meal at room temperature and what that has to do with having refrigeration on board.
No offense, but I think you are looking at the problem one dimensionally. You are assuming that there is only one way to solve a set of problems.
A LOT of people cruise now and have cruised in the past without a fridge. I don't care one way or another if you have a fridge on your boat...it's completely your business. You don't have to justify it to me.
But...I do care that other people will read this, maybe lurkers who never log in to discuss it further, and leave with the idea that refrigeration is the ONLY solution the "food aboard" problem. Quite simply, it is not. There are other choices, and none of them lead to suffering or even discomfort.
This is what sailfar is, and always has been, about...dispelling myths regarding cruising in small boats. This is a very classic example of such a myth...that one HAS to have a fridge to be either safe or comfortable.
My comments are aimed at those other readers, those that want to go cruising and wonder, "Do I need x on my boat?"
I can see that no matter what I say we would not agree on anything. What ever I say will be placed as a myth.
I'm just a dumb old country boy that grew up without refrigeration until I was in high school. I also lived in cow camps up in Montana without refrigeration. No you don't have to have it.
How about some photos of boats out there with meats and fish drying on the life line? This would be neat to see.
Quote from: Grime on July 29, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
I can see that no matter what I say we would not agree on anything. What ever I say will be placed as a myth......
I have refrigeration. I have cruised with it, and feel it is well worth the investment....
... Nothing beats a cool drink of water on a hot day.
Never had refrigeration on a boat.
But I DO use Ice and have worked hard to make coolers that will hold ice as long as possible.
I virtually never keep any FOODS cold, but man does that cold iced tea or a beer go great ;D And I detest milk, so if I HAVE to have some for cooking, I used dried. And dried mashed potatoes. ;)
I can well understand the desire for refrigeration- doing without is a personal choice, just like it's a personal choice to not use air conditioning here at my house.
...of sweet Acidophilus milk and other goodies developed in north cackalacky... cheers !!!
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/fft/foodrich.htm (http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/fft/foodrich.htm)
one Engel plus one 135W panel= cold drinks ;D :o
not needed....but SOOooooo nice
Well, we cruise largely without refrigeration. With knowledge and relevant skills, it's easy. We actually have a fridge, but it mostly gets used as an icebox to save amps. Not a big deal for us as we mainly only eat meat fresh or when we can keep it on ice. Can't believe Grime's claims on how hard living without a fridge is. It's just different and takes more knowledge and a willingness to accept the tradeoffs. My gal is proud of our new found knowledge and skills from living without one. Heck, we've even talked about ripping out the condenser/compressor to have space in the lazarette for a folding bike which is high on her list. Some foods become less convenient and you don't eat them as much. Cold beer is dearly missed. Lots of cruisers can/dry/smoke meat/fish. Read a book or talk to a cruiser without a fridge some time.
Colin, my memory is probably failing me, but was it you and Anne who introduced me to Dark and Warmies?
Quote from: Grime on July 29, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
I'm just a dumb old country boy that grew up without refrigeration until I was in high school. I also lived in cow camps up in Montana without refrigeration. No you don't have to have it.
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on August 02, 2013, 09:53:32 PM
Can't believe Grime's claims on how hard living without a fridge is.
Obviously, I'm having a Missoula moment, but, marujo, are we reading the same prose???
Yep, Dark and Stormy, hold the ice (because you don't have any.)
SA, I was reacting to a post two older than the one you're quoting.
"Why throw it away? Save it. It's simply a sold fear that this is a problem. Good grief. Milk in mashed potatoes has been COOKED (killing bacteria) and presumably, you will heat it again before you eat the leftovers the next day...killing bacteria. Keep in reasonably cool (in the bilge, for example, out of the sun anyway), and just how fast do you think those bacteria are going to grow, anyway?"
As a microbiologist by training, I feel compelled to stick up for Grime a bit. There are two types of food poisoning, "infections" in which the live bacteria are responsible for symptoms (ex~ Salmonella) and "intoxications" in which the disease is cause by a toxin secreted into the food by bacteria (ex~ botulism, Staphylococcus aureus). In an intoxication, it makes zero difference if the bacteria are dead or alive upon consumption. Furthermore, some of the toxins (ex~ S. aureus exotoxin) are highly heat stable and unaffected by the cooking temperatures required to kill bacteria. In fact, autoclaving is not enough to deactivate many bacterial exotoxins.
S. aureus is a ubiquitous bacteria that's a natural resident of the skin, nose, and throat of about 25% of humans and many animals. It'll grow and produce exotoxin in temperatures from 39-115 deg. F, in up to 20% salt concentrations, and in the presence of nitrite preservatives. It also produces a very heat stable exotoxin, 1ug of which will produce acute effects. Deaths are rare, but you're going to be miserable for 1-3 days. This is the microbe that most food safety folks probably have in mind when they're telling you to throw out your food after 2-4 hours without refrigeration.
If you have food that you haven't cooked to sterilization and kept sterile or at temperatures below 39 deg. F, recooking that food later will do nothing to prevent S. aureus food poisoning. In your example, you cooked the food to begin with. The question is, how well did you cook it and how good was your aseptic technique between heating and eating a day later. Safe cooking recommendations are meaningless without a temperature and a time component. You also need to know whether your recommendations are for killing all the bacteria or temporarily reducing them to a level below the "infectious dose" (the number of cells required for clinically significant infection). I highly suspect that most public recommendations were formulated with the expectation that you will eat your food and put your leftovers in the fridge. For instance, an article in Applied and Environmental Microbiology concluded that going from 1000 cells of Salmonella or Staph. per gram to nondetectable levels requires 45 minutes at 140 deg. F. That's 45 min from the time the center of your mashed potatoes reach 140 deg. It's also assuming that you cooked your meal once, let everyone serve themselves with their staphy little fingers and then recooked it.
Most people don't have great aseptic technique and don't want to treat every meal like a canning operation, thinking about pH, temperature, pressure, and time. Most people just turn the stove on for awhile and say, "Meh, that's pretty good." I thin that's why most people have refrigerators, not because everyone drank the Kool Aid. People lived for millenia without refrigeration, but they also probably puked and pooped their guts out occasionally when someone didn't reheat the mashed potatoes long enough.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it's very relevant to living without refrigeration. For the record, we've never had refrigeration on our boats, but we also tend to waste a lot of leftovers. I think you have to weigh the improbability of getting sick against the seriousness of a crew member being incapacitated. For a 2 person crew on an offshore boat, I usually try to cook small portions and throw out the extras.
Quote from: ralay on August 04, 2013, 01:52:36 PM
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it's very relevant to living without refrigeration.
very valid, but, as a nematologist specializing in genetic origins of parasitism, I could post an entire "wall" on these subjects... cheers !!!
I have sailed very little on the ocean on a small boat but when I did we used freeze dried meat and other dried canned food from a site called emergency essentials. It is a little expensive but it doesn't take all that long to reconstitute the dried meat and other food and it taste very good. I enjoy a cold glass of water and a cold beer or other adult beverage . the question is would I take a refer on a smaller boat and the answer is yes I would but I don't have to have one. Just my 2 cents worth.
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on August 02, 2013, 09:53:32 PM
Can't believe Grime's claims on how hard living without a fridge is.
Obviously, I'm having a Missoula moment, but, marujo, are we reading the same prose???
[/quote]I can't for the life of me find where I said how hard living without a fridge is. Since I've been refereed to again I'll try to get my feeling straight. A fridge on a boat in a home, RV or out back in the shed is personal choice. I frankly don't care. I stated that when we go cruising we will have a fridge. That is my personal choice. I spent 7 days on a boat with no way to cool my food. It would take me 2 hours to eat though a tube in my stomach instead of drinking it. I also made the comment as to suffer. That was a bad choice of word. It should have been primitive. If you want to sail, live in a house or what ever with out a fridge or A/C I don't care.
For you that say put it down in the bilge that would be great but here the water temp is pushing 90 or more and in the winter it is still to warm to keep anything in the bilge. They wade fish here year round.
I'm no scientist but drop on down to Mexico and just drink the water. How about eating from the street carts. I rest my case on wanting a fridge on my boat.
Frank - noted you said 135w panel pulled your engel well. Is this actual or calculated? at what ambient temp?
I've used an engel marine 40 for a couple years now and love it - but charge 2 grp 29 batteries as when needed and only trailer sail up to a week or so at a time. Was kind of wondering what actualls were - thinking of installing a panel and leaving the 1 KW gen to home.
jim, Sooner
It is niether actual or calculated ;D my 90 watt panel worked well on sunny days and had no problems keeping our engel going using 2 100amp hour batteries. When I purchased the 90 watt panel, they had 135's on sale as well. On days with variable clouds I always wished I had gotten the 135.....hense my comment. Hope that helps. I think Craig ran his off a 100
Have never had the luxury of refrigeration. Always something else that needed the $1000 spent on it. For me it just costs too much in installation plus care and feeding. 1000 bucks will buy a lot of ice.
That being said, the hardest decision I have to make when porting in is what I want first.... Cold beer or hot shower.
Thanks Frank - practical information beats spec sheets every time. A cold beam & coke will smooth out many a hard day...
jim
Just to be clear, I don't mean to discount any concerns with certain foods being kept at warm temperatures, spoilage, etc. Obviously, this becomes more and more of a concern the closer to the tropics you get. That said, in most cruising grounds and even for week long offshore passages, this can be dealt with just as effectively with ice as with a fridge. Whatever works for you and your boat is fine. If ice isn't available or your fridge is broken (both of which are not uncommon occurrences,) then you have some choices to make, and in any case, the more you know about storing food simply and safely the better off you'll be. At the very least, you'll be able to figure out which foods store better outside your fridge and use it more effectively.
Grime, I was mainly reacting to your claims about people having to throw away large amounts of food, or eating poorly. This isn't necessary nor have I met anyone without a fridge that's been throwing out lots of food or getting sick. Some planning, cooking talent, and know-how is all that's needed. Is it nice to have a fridge that works, sure. Heck, I'd like one that made ice! We don't have the power budget for it, though, and wouldn't want to run the engine every day for the fridge's sake. Even when we run out of ice, we eat very, very well aboard and throw out very little food. YMMV, of course.
marujo_sortudo I was just making a point about catching a large fish with only two on board with no way to save the uneaten part. I don't recall saying that people throw out large amounts of food or eating poorly or unhealthy. Even tho I've seen some live of a breakfast bar for days. Each to their own.
I know full time cruisers that run a generator or have large solar panels to run all their electrical requirements. I'm not talking about power hungry units for us or anyone. A Engle only pull 2.5 amps same with the ARB frig. Sure you have the cost of the unit.
We are not really experience cruisers. We spent 60 day going to N.O. and back. Also a number of short cruises.
With out a frig we did throw out some foods. Why? Because Lisa has to cook for one 90% of the time. It is hard for me to eat solid foods. Cancer does wonders to you. If we had something more than an ice chest she could have re heated most things.
I have read articles and articles about food storage and handling. I read another one just the other day. She had pictures of her bilge where she stored her can foods. She also talked about raising 2 kids and cruising for years without a fridge. It is easy to feed a family of 3 or 4 with no leftovers. There was a time when in this family a batch of cookies were gone just as soon as they came out of the oven. Now they get stale because only one can eat them.
On our Starwind 22 we had no bilge and now on our Watkins 27 the bilge is the size of a match box. So there is no way to store items that need a cooler area for storage. I have a hard time finding places to store cases and cases of Boost.
I invested in solar that will carry our electrical need for under $300. I can afford the $800 for a ARB where most have bills to pay and I don't.
Each person has their on personal needs. Sometime we assume that everyone is like us and we tend to try and teach them without all the cards. I've read the books I've done some cruising so I know what works for us.
Disclaimer:
Aside from contaminants, raw seafood can also be the vector for various pathogens, viral, bacterial, as well as larger parasitic creatures. According to the 2009 Food Code published by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA), specific microbial hazards in ceviche include: Anisakis simplex, Diphyllobothrium spp., Pseudoterranova decipiens, and Vibrio parahaemolyticus.
That being said, here is my solution when that trollihg line catches more fillets than I can fry in butter and soy. No cook, no refrigerator (never lasts very long anyway). Haven't got sick yet off my own Ceviche or anyone elses for that matter. And some of those of were rather suspicious. (Ceviche con what?)
Cube your fish to 1/2"
For each pound of fish add in glass container
Juice of 6 limes and 1 lemon (Change ratio to taste or what you have. Need enough juice to cover fish)
Onion
Red pepper to taste (Fresh, Dried, or Tabasco sauce)
Dash of "English Sauce" (Worcestershire)
1/2 tsp salt.
Optional:
Celery
Cilantro
Garlic
Stir it up, and let sit for at least 8 hours. Good for 2 days with no reefer or ice. I have never been able to make it over 2 days before it's all eaten I usually make in large mason jar. Flip the jar a couple of times while it is marinating to keep mixed.
Serve with soda crackers on the mid- watch.....
And read the disclairmer above again. Your mileage may vary.
(I keep my open mayo on the shelf as well.. Have been known to run with scissors)
And besides that, when cruising down here on the Gulf coast, putting beer or other food in the bilge would just heat it up :D :D
Bay water temp right now is 85 degrees.
For some reason I can not find a Ceviche Recipe that does not require some form of refrigeration.
Quote from: Grime on August 13, 2013, 09:20:31 PM
For some reason I can not find a Ceviche Recipe that does not require some form of refrigeration.
;D :o ::) :D ;) :o
cap-couillon, appreciate the recipe. :)
I remember being served some Cerviche scallops at a friend's years ago. One way to make sure that you don't overcook the scallops... ;)
Now Colin has got me curious about how better to eat well without refrigeration... Do we have a Galley and Rations thread dedicated to recipes/menus/food favorites that keep well without refrigeration?
I remember the thread on canning aboard that Charlie started.
Update: And now see that John had started this thread on Cerviche (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2814.0.html)
These will give you a starting point-
Galley and rations section (where these posts are)-
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/board,11.0.html
Sailfar Cookbook-
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html
Pressure cookery-
http://www.foodiegazette.com/cat/recipes/pressure-cooker
Non refrigerated foods-
http://www.foodiegazette.com/cat/recipes/non-refrigerated
Thanks, Charlie.
I don't mean to sound biased against refrigerated foods...(to me known as just "food"...which I have some experience with already on land). ;)
I guess that what I need is to go cruising long enough that my ice in the cooler melting is an issue...
Quote from: Jim_ME on August 15, 2013, 03:19:28 PM
I guess that what I need is to go cruising long enough that my ice in the cooler melting is an issue...
Don't we all, don't we all :D
Working hard towards doing that again.
Quote from: Jim_ME on August 15, 2013, 03:19:28 PM
.... I guess that what I need is to go cruising long enough that my ice in the cooler melting is an issue...
Wait....wut? You can do that? All this time..... >:(
;D
Hey David,
Sorry to hear about your cancer. It wasn't so long ago I was the only person eating aboard and there was more food going to waste then. I think it's a lot harder, as you mention, to cycle through food fast enough with fewer mouths to feed. I'm sure if we had a couple of teenagers around to add the crew, we'd probably be more worried about running out of food than wasting it. Food is such a personal thing that I guess everybody just needs to find what works for them. Thankfully, we can exchange ideas here and benefit from each other's experience.
Cheers, C
8)