sailFar.net

I imagine everyone pretty much will have their own gameplan in regard to 'finances,' but I thought I'd post some of my own (very preliminary) thoughts.  I got to thinking about all this after reading the Martins' story during their stay in Norway, where they had to pay a $17,000 fee to remain in-country (it was a mess, and too long to go into here) due to some paperwork snafu with the Norwegian immigration officials.  Anyway, this is never a fun subject to talk about, but I thought I'd throw a few morsels out there and see what kind of feeding frenzy occurs.

For us, I am basing my numbers on roughly $1000 per month on the low side, $2000 on the high side.  This amount precludes staying in a lot of marinas and careful management of "extras."  However, I think it is doable, even with a family of four.

We are exploring putting our cruising funds into some sort of either self-managed or managed investment plan with a shore-based family member as our contact.  A recent conversation with a financial-investment type revealed the following stat: self investors generally see a 3-6% growth over time, whereas managed funds can generate 13% or so (even the fairly conservative ones).  That increase in growth should significantly offset the trade-off in paying loads.

Anyway, it got me to thinking about cruising with simply a cash-kitty vs. a managed investment.  With a trusted family member stateside to be the local point of contact for the fund (and to send us money if we need it), this seems the 'safest' approach to me.  Any growth our investment sees will outpace inflation of the dollar and that growth is our added safety net.  Of course, I'm also in the 'pay as you go' camp, so hopefully this type of "cushion" would not even be needed.

I assume none of us on SailFar are independently wealthy, so I am curious to learn what strategies others have for 'extended' cruising (let's say extended = greater than three months from 'home waters').

I'm planning a 10 month cruise this coming fall from Toronto to Florida (Bahamas, Cuba?) and back. I'm planning on about $800 US/mo. with a few thousand for re-entering the "real-world" when I get back(assuming I can't find a long-term sailing position along the way). My goal is to work along the way wherever possible, try to get seatime and masters papers, and preserve as much of the kitty as possible...

I have an ING direct USD account, and for the past few months, have been buying greenbacks with our Canadian money because of the exchange rate. Any other Canadians cruised south with ING debit cards? Do they work in the states, bahamas? Also, I'll keep a positive balance on a pre-paid credit card (THE BEST kind of "credit" card) for emergency use. Also, a well hidden cash stash...

I appreciate any feedback about my budget expectations, etc.

For more info on the boat and a couple of cool small boat voyage links, check out my page at http://seastrutter.googlepages.com

QuoteI appreciate any feedback about my budget expectations, etc.

  From the number crunching I have done, and the reading of others accounts I think that an expectation for sub $1k a month is realistic on a small boat, especally if you are ok with avoiding spending much time in marinas.

  If your debit card carries the 'visa' name on it (as many do) I doubt that you will have much trouble using it anywhere.  I have used a visa card all over the (northern) hemisphere with out a bit of problem.  I actually find that I usually get a better exchange rate through the bank then I can get locally (probably not everyones experience, but true of mine).

  I personally do not like the debit card idea, since a compromise of the number allows your account to be zeroed, and you can not get access to your money until it is sorted out.  A credit card, that is paid before the balance comes due is a safer alternative.  They SWEAR your debit card is safe too, but the delay in getting them to honor the problem is going to cost you more time.

 

 

I'd second s/v Faith's recommendation about the difference between a debit card and a credit card.  The credit card offers you a lot more protection as a general rule, especially in foreign countries.  You also might want to check with your bank and see if there are any countries that are "blacklisted" for rampant fraud, and will require you to tell them that you will be in them prior to using the card there. 

I have not (yet) done any extended faraway cruising on a boat..........but I have spent quite a bit of time on extended trips in far off places.

However one of my greatest frustrations I have had is running out of money in my hand when I have money "back home" - but just can't access it. Card (s) rejected / lost / stolen / damaged / eaten by ATM / Bank Errors / Cash drunk  :o / Money transfers getting lost or delayed enroute (rare, but it does happen), even though they have all been sorted eventually.

Basically what I am saying is not to rely on your main source of funds working 100% of the time, especially when you really need it to. Although perhaps "Old fashioned" I do like having Travellers Cheques and Cash as I can see them in my hand. Even if I have been known to spend them all before any replacement funds get sent to me!  ;D

And I suggest thinking what you would do if your passport gets lost / stolen or damaged beyond use.......and you use it to access funds.

And don't assume that just cos' a type of card is accepted "everywhere" back home (wherever that may be) that it will be widely accepted elsewhere. I still recall the "fun"  >:( I have with a Mastercard many years ago. and it happens to others as well. From my past experiance VISA is just about everywhere - but I am sure their are places it is not........

Oh yeah, and replacement cards being sent to your home address are not always much help............

One of the advantages of American Express is that they do have offices in many foreign countries, and are fairly widely accepted world wide, even if their acceptance domestically in the USA has dropped quite a bit.  The AmEx offices will even hold mail and packages for customers IIRC.

One advantage of using a credit card is that you can often get a better exchange rate on it than you can with a debit card. 

Just a quick note in case anyone wants to modfy their vote.  I made two changes to the poll.

(1) You can now vote for more than one item.

(2) Prepaid credit card is included with the Debit Card item.

Hi, been lurking on the forum for a while. I have a MacGregor 26 and plan to go cruising in about 1 year. When I was looking at the different options to get money to me while cruising. The first thing was the location of where I was cruising to. For me it was the Bahamas and East coast.  The other thing was cost and interest and secure. Almost every investment, after expenses for the last 2 years that had a good deal of security had less than 4% interest after cost. I have decided to go with Government Bonds - http://www.treasurydirect.gov/

Very safe to buy on-line at NO cost and when mature goes back into your checking account without you doing anything. You buy in 1g increments. Matures in 4 weeks, 13 weeks, 26 weeks, 2 - 3 - 5 years etc and draws 4.7%+ interest. It can be sold before due date.

What I am doing is that I put 1g in every month for 2 years and buy the 3 year note as well every 3 months.

Lynx-

The only real problem I see with that is if the inflation rate shoots up.  You could end up getting clobbered.  I think you'd be much better off diversifying your investments a bit.  Granted, stocks are more volatile, but the return on them is generally better.  Given the current government's propensity to incur huge amounts of debt with no real idea of how they will pay it off, the rises in the cost of oil, and the increases in the cost of most goods due to the changes in transport costs, I see government bonds as being less than an ideal investment.

AdriftAtSea-
     I thought about that as well. There is another adjusted for inflation Bond/Note that can be bought. When I was looking into this I did look at the inflation rate for the last 5 years and it was very level. So I chose not to go with the adjusted inflation Bond/Note.

Less than ideal investment - Well, you could be right. So much for the game of making money with money. All have their risk and yields. The interest rate was not as much needed as getting out 1g every month without having to pay or do anything to invest or payout.  If I had more money to invest, I would look at more options. First off, I want my money back, then interest at a profit for the next 3 to 5 years.

Then I have to go back to work, YUCK!!

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 23, 2007, 06:21:28 AM
I think you'd be much better off diversifying your investments a bit.  Granted, stocks are more volatile, but the return on them is generally better.

Yes, in the long term the market will generally have a better return. 

But every financial planner I've ever heard of will tell you that the nearer your need for the money, the more conservative your investment should be.  If the market takes a sudden down turn, it can take more than a year to recover the lost principal.  Look back to the tech bubble burst and terrorist attacks of '01..

If Lynx wants to be offshore in a year or so, I think the stream of income generated by government securities is a very stable plan.  It's a cruising fund, not retirement.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 21, 2007, 03:33:01 PM
I got to thinking about all this after reading the Martins' story during their stay in Norway, where they had to pay a $17,000 fee to remain in-country (it was a mess, and too long to go into here) due to some paperwork snafu with the Norwegian immigration officials.

Hmm, IMHO this was not a paperwork snafu, they deliberately broke Norwegian immigration law. Lucky for them, they've finally got their visas. If they were trying to do the same here, US would deport them faster.

QuoteWe are exploring putting our cruising funds into some sort of either self-managed or managed investment plan with a shore-based family member as our contact.  A recent conversation with a financial-investment type revealed the following stat: self investors generally see a 3-6% growth over time, whereas managed funds can generate 13% or so (even the fairly conservative ones).  That increase in growth should significantly offset the trade-off in paying loads.

Liar, liar, pants on fire (investment type guy that is).  More than 85% of the active managed funds fails to beat their indexes.
Since you seem to know your expenses (you said $1k - $2k per month), how long you need these funds to last?
Is it next 5 years or you & your spouse lifetime? Based on the time horizon I would pick up appropriate (to your age, needed yield, risk profile, etc)  asset allocation and invest the money in some index funds or ETFs.
Nowadays you can do all of it through the internet, even from Timbuktu or South Pacific Islands.

There is a lot of great advice at Early Retirement forum ( http://early-retirement.org/forums/ ) , they are very friendly to "newbies", so don't hesitate to ask.

As far as us - we hope to Sail Far when we don't need a job to survive, living off our investments, maybe in 11 years?  ;D
All the banking handled electronically, for rare paper trails, we will probably use South Dakota as our state of domicile with a mail forwarding address there.

Quote from: Ol' Coot on January 23, 2007, 10:58:14 AM
It's a cruising fund, not retirement.

For us is both - cruising fund is also our retirement fund.

During out circumnavigation we kept the finances extremely simple.

1.  We kept a cash reserve in $100 bills on board for emergencies in out of the way places where cash was essential.
2.  We kept at least one-hundred one dollar bills on board for tips and small expenditures in out of the way places.
3.  We used one Visa Card to get cash advances at a bank, or from ATMs all the way around the world.
4.  We paid one bill a month - our Visa card bill - over the satellite phone.

That kept the cash flowing no matter where we were in the world.  Paying one Visa bill a month was a great way to go.  I have never  been anywhere in the world where a Visa card was not honored.  I would not use a debit card under any circumstances while out cruising because if something goes wrong, it can be very difficult to sort out when offshore or in out of the way places.

We found that a thousand dollars a month covers everything when you are cruising in the islands as long as you are remote.  Remote is cheap.  The moment you set foot on dry land for tours, restaurants, marinas, and assorted unnecessary expenses, the budget expands exponentially.  We cruised from Turkey to Trinidad without staying in a single marina and therefore, it was cheap cruising.  You decide how much cruising is going to cost by the type and size of sailboat you choose, its condition, where you sail. 

My most positive and best crusing memories come from remote locations like the Galapagos, the Tuamotu Archipelago, the Marquesas, Fiji, Tonga, Malaysia,  Thailand, the Southern Bahamas.  For me, the most beautiful places were the most remote and the least expensive.

That's my 2 cents,

Cheers,

As I think I have mentioned on another thread, I will do a 4 month cruise within Scandinavian waters starting in the beginning of June. I am training a young man who will take care of my little company during my cruise, and my woman partner (who will join the cruise during he vacation) will take care of my bills and such.

Assuming the boat is up for it and well maintained, I guess the monthly spending -just for myself and the boat, would be around $380 per month. Consisting of food, diesel, a few spendings when on shore, as internet cafés or an occasional restaurant visit. One night/week at a marina and the rest at anchor....

This is based on what I usually spend in Swedish waters, and I assume thet Finland will be quite similar costwise.

When you talk of $1000 it makes me a bit worried, since I have lived in the assumption that Sweden is at the high end on the expense-scale. I doknow, however that for example marina fees are waaay much more expensive in the UK or France for instance. In Sweden a typical marina fee for a 30-footer would be around $ 18-20, sometimes even lower. Perhaps I would have to recalculate for when I will be heading for an Atlantic crossing....?

If this four-month cruise do not cure my 'sailing bug' I ´ll guess I'll sell my business, cars, and house during the winter and leave those docklines sometime next summer...  8)

The $ 1000 US Dollar per month includes repairs, parts, trips back home, insurance car rental and land cruising. This can add up in a hurry. If you stay in a marina and eat out you can spend more

Does anybody have any experience with a Visa card company changing a service charge for foreign currency exchanges in the last year or 2?

Quote from: Lynx on May 06, 2007, 11:30:53 PM
The $ 1000 US Dollar per month includes repairs, parts, trips back home, insurance car rental and land cruising. This can add up in a hurry. If you stay in a marina and eat out you can spend more

-That seems likely to be true. An occasional (3-5 years) set of sails and major engine overhaul/change should be in the calculating for the loooong cruise.  :D  those two would be the largest investments on my boat anyway. Don't carry much electronic gizmos...

Quote from: Lynx on May 06, 2007, 11:30:53 PM
The $ 1000 US Dollar per month includes repairs, parts, trips back home, insurance car rental and land cruising. This can add up in a hurry. If you stay in a marina and eat out you can spend more

Does anybody have any experience with a Visa card company changing a service charge for foreign currency exchanges in the last year or 2?

I think the service charge is by the bank, not Visa itself.  From what I remember reading, the currency changing charges are levied by the banks, and not all banks charge you for the service.

I appreciate all the ideas.   I will be working as I move along.   Perhaps hitting Central America or the Islands from the US when I was particularly flush and then heading back.   

I am amazed right now how little I've done and how much I have spent.   Some of you will recall, I cashed out, quit the job, bought a boat. . . .       I am looking for some work here near the boat.   I feel like I have been fairly disciplined but I am scared watching the balance go down.   Things will improve greatly when I have some cash coming in again.    I've been here in Bay City for a week and a half.   I'll not worry until I hit a month.   :o

I plan to avoid marinas and too many gizmos.   I have only loosely been thinking about the cruising budget.   

I've figured it out, what makes owning a boat expensive...

It's the docklines!

So long as you don't use those, boating is *much* cheaper! ;D




The above tongue-in-cheek comment comes from reading what MaxingOut wrote, and reflecting on the fact that any/everything I have ever read from LD cruisers reflects that same sentiment - tying up somewhere costs: costs to tie up, costs due to there being more, and easier, opportunities to spend, etc... Keeping that in mind when fitting out, provisioning, and route planning may well wind up giving your cruise a few more months "for free" (or at least without needing to spend). Never thought of it quite like that before...

MaxingOut - Welcome aboard! :) Good to get information from someone who has 'been there' recently. Will have to check out your site more, made a brief visit this AM. I think I've been there before. :)

Sonnie - Checked out your site, too. You have a goldmine, and may not know it: You should author a book that tells your secrets as to "How To Attract Beautiful Young Ladies Onto Your Small Cruising Vessel". ;D lol You had quite the bevy of them there, at least for one nights festivities! Let us know when you add content to your pages, too. :) (BTW, on a more serious note - you oughta put up some more info on that Yanmar you have for sail, er, *sale*. ;) I Googled it quickly, not being familiar with the model #, and that search revealed no info, not even basics like horsepower, cylinders, approx age and parts availability, etc... Capt Smollett here might be interested in it, too.)

Todd - Have you looked for work on OPB's? ('Other People's Boats) Most marinas have people who have jobs they are willing to pay to get done, if you just get your name out there, work starts finding *you*, instead of the other way around. :) I imagine that things are starting to get busy in the marinas and yards up there, it could put some MeowMix into your kitty... Just a thought. :)

Thanks, Cap!   I agree.   I had a really good example of that when I was on a boat down in Sarasota.   My neighbor, Hobie, had a beautifully bristol boat.   It was his calling card of sorts; and he got business painting and polishing and fixing and such that way.   I have to get my calling card fixed up some for reference. 

Also, where I am is a full service marina.   They don't mind do-it-yourselfers, like me, but I don't think they would want to scab work from their service department.  :o) 

Also, I won't get commercial, but today I started brokering boats [sound of me ducking].   It is an independent contractor/commission thing, but they have a real good set up.   Easy to sell/been around 12 years.   I liked it so far.    We'll see . . . .

TrT

Todd - Si, yo comprendo. One of my favorite sayings is (in polite, non-piratical language):

Don't poop in your own back yard. ;D

Good luck with the new job!

My situation is a little different in that my wife will probably not want to go along, so I hope to take some time sailing and traveling, then go back home for a while, then continue sailing for a while.  My cruising financial strategy is pretty much the same as my retirement strategy.  Pay off the house and save up enough money to live off of the interest, factoring in social security and pension revenue when I reach the age of eligibility.

I am putting money in index funds with a balance between Dow Jones and international funds.  I think right now I have 33% Dow Jones index, 33% international fund index, 16% small cap index and 16% medium cap index.  This changes as the market goes up and down.  I think I will shift more towards the international index fund because I don't like the future of the dollar.   I put between 400 and 800 a month away. I am also paying off my house mortgage with bigger payments, timed so that I should pay of the house and reach an adequate investment amount at the same time, when I can announce my retirement.  I intend to keep the money in stock market index funds, and will not move it to bonds, unless for some reason I have payments that must be made on a regular basis.  I don't fool around and move money between funds, I just put it on automatic payment and try to forget about it.

I assume that 4% is a conservative number for the amount of cash I can pull out of the stock market investment fund annually over the long term and never go broke.  For every 100,000 of investment, you should be able to pull 4,000 out annually. So if you need 12,000 annually, you would want to have about 300,000 in investments. My goal is 600,000.  As I get closer I may recalculate this because I also have a pension and could use some of the investments as a bridge to retirement rather than as permanent income.  In other words, take more than 4% per year, depleting some of the investment amount over time.

As for banking, I would use at least two accounts and have at least two credit cards.  One of the banking accounts will probably be Fidelity or some other investment firm money market account. The other would be a bank which has branches in the cruising area, perhaps Citibank. I may also keep a local credit union account.  Set up automatic payments from the banking accounts to the credit cards in the amount of maybe $400 each so you never pay late fees, and make online payments to pay the rest of the credit card bills.  I would use credit cards to get cash and to pay for most things. Stash one credit card and use the other, switch them every month.  Keep a reserve of a couple of months of cash hidden on the boat.

I would probably continue to work somehow, I am lost if I don't have some project to do. I tried the boat broker thing last summer but found it difficult to get listings.  I may do it this year again but I am not sure.

A lot of this early retirement planning includes budgeting and living well on a small income.  If I can continue working at this horrible job (which is questionable) I should be able to retire in between 5 and 10 years, in my mid-50's.

One would think that paying off ALL debts before investing is a wise move because you are not paying the interest while investing.  Unless you have an IRA and your return rate is better than your investment.

Hey Hey Charlie J !
BRAVO!!

"Ya' got ya head on straight Kid!"

My advise to all: Take all of your credit cards (but one never carried, for medical emergency) to the shore of a large body of water. Shred your credit cards with a boat knife, wrap in newspaper, soak with rum, burn at the shoreline. Then scatter the ashes to the sea, followed by a overly generous splash of rum, and invoke the sprite of Neptune to help you sail into life debt free.
Live on a debit card. It works the same way, including a small transfer of money to your savings account, but forces you to stop spending when the balance in your checking account is gone.
Let's face it, you shouldn't be spending more than you make to start with.
If you "need" a credit card to live, then you are a disaster looking for a point in time,  to happen.
I found it difficult at first (following surgery and divorce) until I realized that if I can not pay for something today and buy it anyway, then I am trying to live someone else's life, not mine. Thereby, I devalue myself and become worth less than I was as a person.

Well- I can't totally agree here. Credit cards in and of themselves aren't bad things.

Hard to rent a car in an emergency without one. Hard to buy a tire out on the road in a strange town with a personal check. The possession of a credit card makes both possible.

Just pay it off when the bill comes.

We were in mid Louisiana coming back from Florida aboard Tehani when the engine crashed. You for sure aren't gonna sail the ICW through western Louisiana or eastern Texas with no engine- ain't happening.


We searched all over southern La for a used one, but finally decided to bite the bullet and get our new Yamaha. We bought it on a credit card. The alternative was to ride a bus home, get the truck, borrow a trailer, drive BACK to south central La, pay to have the boat hauled and loaded on the trailer and drive BACK home. It took a bit to convince ourselves to do it, but we bought the engine. Then worked to pay off the bill. Took longer than that month, but that's done.

THAT sort of thing is a reasonable use I'd think.

Also, going cruising, having the credit card (or two)  makes it simple to obtain cash and you can arrange to pay the bill from your bank account each month. Beats the hassle of trying to cash checks ( or the danger of carrying LARGE sums of cash) in foreign countries- and the Bahamas qualify as foreign.

So don't condemn credit cards out of hand- just use them wisely. Having said that, we do live on the debit cards here at home. I have and carry the two credit cards, but they are virtually NEVER used. They are for real emergencies.

QuoteI can't totally agree here. Credit cards in and of themselves aren't bad things.
Hard to rent a car in an emergency without one. Hard to buy a tire out on the road in a strange town with a personal check. The possession of a credit card makes both possible

That's true CharlieJ - I understand the comfort issue.  But, for normal transactions, including those named, (unless you can't cover the amount), your debit card works just like a credit card. In fact, most of them look like a standard Visa or Mstr/Crd, only the charge is deducted from your bank account not added to your credit balance. And, there are no resultant monthly interest charges, late fees, membership fees, etc. to you. You don't even pay for checks when you use the debit card. ;D
For me, credit cards make going in debt too easy. Impulse buying and good salespeople exist. The debit card keeps me aware of what I have on hand to spend, and to more rationally make purchases. The bank is always trying to get me to add "overcharge privilege." That privilege would  automatically transfer $$ from savings to my cking acct so I can overspend the monthly deposit to my checking account. But, I just say no! ;D

There is a valid point to credit cards re: getting funds out of country.While in the Bahamas out islands where the banks are only open for 2 hours twice a week...they do NOT take debit cards...only credit cards for cash advances.It was possible in Marsh harbour but not the smaller islands.I 'assume' this may be the case elsewhere as well.Beyond that...they cause more people more grief than any other convienance.Seems it's just TOOooo easy to 'pull out the card'. Like anything...used wisely they are great.

Shipscarver- you musta missed the next to last line of my post ;D

where I said-

"Having said that, we do live on the debit cards here at home. "

Strangely enough I can't use them in ATM machines east of the Mississippi River. We're with Wells Fargo and they don't do business in the east. So east of the Miss R they become credit cards, only the money comes directly out of your account, exactly as a debit card would. You just have to sign for the item, rather than punching a PIN number.

I totally agree on the debit cards. I think I wrote one check last month and it was from my business account TO a business account. And I think the last time we actually USED a credit card was buying that engine, three years ago. (OOPs- see addition)

But Frank also  has a point.In some places the debit card won't work. And carrying large sums of cash is foolhardy. And travelers checks are also kinda difficult because if there are two of you ( like us) then you have to have half in one name and half in the other- can't have 'em issued to two names.

So for someone cruising, out of the country, the credit card definitely has a place.

Oh- and one other point- you probably WON'T be able to rent a car with a debit card. Most car rental agencies DEMAND two credit cards as ID before they'll rent to you. A debit card is not acceptable. Nor is cash.We found that out two years ago when the truck was broke and we were scheduled for a trip to south Texas for Christmas. We HAD to use a credit card.

One major difference is that with a credit card company, you have the credit card company to protect you in case of fraud.  With a debit card, the money is gone and there's little you can do about it in many cases.  With a credit card company, they'd have to prove it was you that used the card, with a debit card, you have to prove it wasn't you...

Also, a credit card will generally issue a credit almost immediately.  A Debit card company can often take weeks to issue a credit to your account—and as soon as a debit card is used, the cash is taken out of your account.  It is a pretty good way to get wiped out.

I generally recommend that you not use or even carry debit cards. Debit cards are basically really geared towards fraud.  When was the last time you needed to use a PIN number to buy gasoline using a debit card?  You don't.  In fact, you aren't required to even sign for most purchases or verify them using the PIN # if they're below $75.  You're much better off and safer with an ATM card, rather than a debit card.  They can be used in many places a Debit card can, but REQUIRE A PIN and have a much lower DAILY WITHDRAWAL LIMIT.

Quote from: Shipscarver on July 31, 2008, 03:17:04 PM

QuoteI can't totally agree here. Credit cards in and of themselves aren't bad things.
Hard to rent a car in an emergency without one. Hard to buy a tire out on the road in a strange town with a personal check. The possession of a credit card makes both possible

That's true CharlieJ - I understand the comfort issue.  But, for normal transactions, including those named, (unless you can't cover the amount), your debit card works just like a credit card. In fact, most of them look like a standard Visa or Mstr/Crd, only the charge is deducted from your bank account not added to your credit balance. And, there are no resultant monthly interest charges, late fees, membership fees, etc. to you. You don't even pay for checks when you use the debit card. ;D
For me, credit cards make going in debt too easy. Impulse buying and good salespeople exist. The debit card keeps me aware of what I have on hand to spend, and to more rationally make purchases. The bank is always trying to get me to add "overcharge privilege." That privilege would  automatically transfer $$ from savings to my cking acct so I can overspend the monthly deposit to my checking account. But, I just say no! ;D

I couldn't agree with you more. All my life I've paid cash for EVERYTHING. It does mean that I have to save and wait. And there in lies the problem, Most folks have no desire to wait. And given that something like 70% of the US economy is comsumer spending the push is toward un-controlled spending. Advertisers know how to get it done...

I merged these last few posts here from the Financial rant thread. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=802.0)

  FWIW, Rose and I used our Visa card for cash advances several times while in the Bahamas.  Just as Frank said, debit cards were not accepted.  By transfering the funds from checking via online banking we paid no interest and avoided wire transfer fees. 

  I personally do not see anything wrong with credit cards, I have used them for years as an interest free loan... as LONG as you pay it off each billing cycle.  You just have to know yourself, and your limits.  Kinda like grog..  ;)

Same here, as long as you use them correctly, we have found credit cards indispensable when traveling. And by using them all the time at home we have accrued quite a bit of free mileage.

OK!  I consider myself properly chastised.  :-[
I guess I am biased. I retired from Chase Manhatten. My debit card looks like a Visa Card and works like one, as well as a debit card. And, yes I do have to enter my code to buy gas. Actually, I was very opposed to Debit Cards when we started them and didn't come around until about 2 years ago. Then when I was traveling, I experienced culture shock. American Express checks were extremely difficult to cash. I carried and used travelers checks for decades. Ye Gads, when I was young and bicycling we lived from Amex Office to Amex Office. Just like I later lived from check to check.  ;)  It seems T CK's are too easily counterfeited (or the clerks are too easily taken in).  So, while traveling: cash, credit cards, and an honest face, are all necessary. But, at home, I'm with you CharlieJ, live on the debit, and hide the credit cards. A friend of mine (practices BK law) once told me she advises everyone to put the credit cards in a sealed freezer bag of water, frozen in the frig. so the urge to spend will pass before they thaw out. ::)

"put the credit cards in a sealed freezer bag of water, frozen in the frig. so the urge to spend will pass before they thaw out"

Now THERE'S a sure fire slow down for ya ;D Fortunately we have enough self control that that's not necessary- But for people like my first wife----------

Of course she would wear out the freezer refreezing the cards ;D ;D ::)

Charlie....same theme....an ex would say..."I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left ?"

My bank is starting to use the debit card as part of the ID system when going into the bank teller and the Bahamas would not give cash to debit cards and would not accept checks. Most "Marinas" on the Erie Canal is not accepting credit cards and will take cash or checks.

Sorry, if you are cruising you will need all 3. I just take out what cash I need for the week and not use the cards unless budgeted.

Not done any extended cruising on Boats - but have spent a lot of extended time on vacation well abroad where nipping home is not a practical option.

What works for me is cash for day to day living. I like knowing how much I have to spend and no worries about some dodgy shop ripping my card number or simply making multiple transactions (by design or in error).......when I am not around to check statements. Or from worrying that my card will be rejected.

How do I get the cash? I like Travellers Cheques - cos' I can count them! Have yet to try ATM freindly pre-loaded credit card styles T/c's, but on my list. I also tend to take a chunk of Sterling notes, just in case. And sometimes I used to open a local bank account and wire money from home once a month or so - and then just visit a bank once a week. And having someone at home able to Western Union funds is also useful.

But Debit Cards on home bank account are great to have "Just in case" (as long as they work in "Your" location) - especially if they are on an Account that does not have yer life savings in! But my preferrence is to use only for obtaining cash.

Credit Cards? Not had one for years, BUT their have been a couple of times where having a large chunk of ready money in an easily accepted form would have been really really useful. and where "Paying back" the money was a secondary consideration  ;D. Sometimes in life a large chunk of money solves a few problems.

Ok, (sorry long post!!) I may be a bit naive in this subject, I have never been out of country... but I am basing these thoughts on what others have done and what I have learned on shore.

First off, the Martins maybe had trouble in Norway, but remember they spent 7 years on a 25' boat with a growing family with literally no money. They got money only after (some unknown incident) they got an inheritance, and then bought their new boat and moved on to the north latitudes. Prior to that, on their 25 footer, Dave took odd jobs around the globe, he expressly says that you can get a job anywhere in any country if you are hungry enough.

Now, I don't intend to get that hungry, but It probably will happen nonetheless.

Also to note: 
Alex Dorsey from www.projectbluesphere.com left the US with less than $2000 in his pocket, and managed his way to australia before someone bought his boat and he in-turn bought a new boat. He made his money by charters (only a few) for around $800/month and his DVD sales, which didn't even start selling 'till he was 2 years into his cruise. He took odd jobs also, but he states in his logs that he was living on less than $300 a month while in the San Blas Islands and  in Columbia. He continues to make his living almost exclusively by deliveries. charging  around $4 a mile.

Now to me:
I currently live on a budget of around $1000 a month, I can easily cut that down to around $800 (and intend to do so for savings). Now, if you take away RENT and a few other things that I would be doing without on a boat, (and ad in moorage and fuel/on average) I am averaging around $500/mo conservatively.

Thats $200 a month in food (conservative) and $100/mo in fuel (guess) and $100 for repairs (Hopefully) and $100 for misc.

Working in the US at this  rate, making $10/h, I can save well close to $10000 a year... (subtract quite a bit for whatever and average around $7000) I plan to work for a few years and leave with around $15,000 in the bank.

Thats a 3 year cruise, suppliment that with odd jobs and deliveries, if all goes well, then its indefinate. If all does not go well, then I will just cruise the caribbean and mostly south america until money runs low, then return to US for work.

Even if you look at it by a worst case cenario, its still well over a year of cruising, and maybe a year or two saving back up,  then eventually, off across the pacific, who knows what time will bring.

I have spent my life making similar choices, leave with nothing and go hundreds of miles away with no prospect of work, with the knowledge that something will eventually work itself out, and in the meantime, I am self sufficiant.

Obviously, its all relative. If you can do without marinas, if you can scrape your own bottom, if you can fish, sprout, bake, make your own wine, and so forth, you can live on alot less than what is even considered less than average. From where I am standing, that is what the cruising life is all about.
Self Sufficiency.

So it all boils down to how much you have now, how much you can make in a year, and how much can you NOT spend in a year.

Figuring in Luck is  not such a bad thing when you are talking about crossing oceans in a small boat. I can consistantly plan on obtaining work in any state in the US, I can put my last dollar in my gas tank without worrying if I will eat tomorow, I have been doing it for years... Is it just me? I consistantly plan on 'things just working out'.

Obviously comfort is important. If you can't live without certain comforts, then you have to plan for those costs. I personally have lived without, and any comfort I come across is a blessing.

Now, if you have the money to put aside for emergencies and major repairs, obviously do so, And I would imagine any high yield savings account is better than a long term money market account. Unless you have LOTS of money. If you have enough for long term investing, of course do so, hopefully with the prospect of living off of a few hundred dollars a month in returns.... I can't comment much on those aspects of finance, but I know if I had +$50,000 in savings, I wouldn't have to worry about anything.

Me again  ::)

Quote from: dnice on August 27, 2008, 12:27:40 AM
Ok, (sorry long post!!) I may be a bit naive in this subject, I have never been out of country... but I am basing these thoughts on what others have done and what I have learned on shore.

I have not done extended travels on my boat, but have been to a few places in the world for extended holidays. In the long past I have left a few countries with less than a dollar in my pocket, but always had a means to get home already in place.....and knew that when I got home that a) I would not be homeless and b) could work pretty much straight away and c) that being a Westerner means that anywhere in the world I am never going to starve to death.....I have never worked abroad (always came back when funds low / gone!) but their were always people managing to live / get by on a limited (or non-existent!) budget.......it's a matter of motivation, whether you can and whether you want to.

QuoteI plan to work for a few years and leave with around $15,000 in the bank......... Thats a 3 year cruise, suppliment that with odd jobs and deliveries, if all goes well, then its indefinate. If all does not go well, then I will just cruise the caribbean and mostly south america until money runs low, then return to US for work.

I think that is a great plan - if it works on an ongoing basis then great, if not it's not exactly a failure - more one helluva adventure under your belt! But also remember that you may not like that life on a boat (nothing wrong with that!), may hate abroad?! or simply decide that you prefer to travel by land on a bus / car or motorbike. Or simply sit in one place under a palm tree somewhere  8). I like plans, but flexible ones.

But I think you are in a good place for making some plans / getting some ideas..........

It can be done, one of the cheepest is in the USA for somebody from the USA.

you need a boat paid for and in good shape, the smaller the cheeper.

enough of a cruising kitty to last until you are ready for w***.

This is a different lifestyle. Can be hard and adventureous at the same time.

Sorry, I posted my 'financing the cruise' plans, but forget to address the original post, 'managing'...

I would keep the bulk of my finances in a savings account and use a debit/check card whenever possible.
I would also keep one or possibly two (one MC and one VISA) credit cards, for emergency (or major repair) use only.
then I would keep around $1000 cash on the boat for provisions and such, replenishing it with the debit card when it runs low.

I think it was the book "Blown Away" where a guy cruising in central america suggested keeping cash in One dollar bills. Even though US currency was widely accepted, getting the correct change back (or any change at all) from a $20 bill was unlikely. Sounds like good advice to me, unless you can do the exchange rates in your head, or are staying mainly in resort area's.

edit: I don't think it was "Blown Away" now, but I can't remember where I read that. some cruising book... they all sorta run together in my memory now.

This is the most depressing or maybe upsetting thread I've read here in a long, long time.  You guys are down right scaring me.

I don't want to come across as a buffoon, or, an idiot, as far as that goes.  But what exactly is it that costs so much money to sail about?  Sure, a cold one every now and again at a sea side dive is nice.  As is a prepared meal.  But is the $1K number representative of what it takes or what we need or what we expect? 

If you start with a sound boat, well stocked with supplies does it really take that much?  Granted, you will eventually have to restock, pay fees, buy fishing license, top up the tanks, etc..  I met a number of back packers in Belize that seemed to do quite well for considerably less untill they hit the clubs. 

Barring the unforeseen repairs does anyone here have a past cruising budget they could share that shows where their money went and how much they spent?

I don't think I have it in me to wait another 5 or 6 years to build up a cruising kitty...go small, go now, go unfinanced!

No, it is just the lifestyle that you are used to. Sure you can eat rice and beans and a few fish. Sail all the time and not motor. Or just not move the boat.

However if you want more out of life, you need to spend money.

A good description of this is  in"Sail Away" by the Shards. They give a good description of what the budgets can do for you. After a while the "vacation" think goes away and the cruising lifestyle sets in. You then find out what makes you happy. That is what this is all about anyway. Why be miserable for a couple of yeas spending $ 500 per month when you would be happy spending $ 1500  per month for 9 months. You are going back to land someday anyway.

I have spent as little as $ 200 per month already having food and I have spent as much as $ 2500 per month.

how many people ask you how to finance your life ?.... that is up to every one to answer. No one can tell you how to do it, no book, no wizard can help.  You know what you like in life,  what you like  to eat, to play with. Only YOU can tell. When you go cruising, you  have only the boat to take of and yourself, it is pretty easy, no need to ask anyone else. It is up to you, and it is pretty easy depending on where you go, what you want (stay in marina or not) , and that is it. the rest is : If you have stuff to take care back home, health insurance, boat insurance, family, kids, etc... You can go crazy asking around about a budget. There is no recipe, just try it for a few months see if it fits you. I agree with Lynx, it is about life style...so just try it and write the book yourself. advices are good, but sometimes too much of it is upsetting. It is a wonderful life, full of avdentures, sometimes very smooth, sometimes stormy, but do not wait, do it now. Just go.. :)

I am one of the pension option guys. My biggest isue now is how long to hold out? I can bug out in 3 years with a $2400 a month clear pension or wait 5 years and be pulling in $2700 clear with an extra 50K in the kitty. I know everyone says go now go small, but those numbers are pretty appealing for two years extra work.

LOL Or I caould go now with much less savings and $1900 a month.

The problem with retiring early is that the pension is forever, cruising may only last a few years or less.......who knows  ???

Aside from the money, there is the "how long are you going to live and be healthy" issue.  There was a guy in the boatyard back in Truth or Consequences who was planning on retiring and going cruising. He was in his mid 40's.  Had a massive heart attack and died.  That was when we decided I'd retire a bit early, even if it meant less money, and full fill my life long dream to cut the dock lines and head out. 

Finance-wise (So far I'm the only "Other"), use CC pay it off monthly with retirement income.  May get a job down the road if an interesting one presents itself.

Greenman - Hard to say. How old are you, your health. Did you take care of the body, family history with related habits/jobs and their age of medical problems.

I suggest that you take as much time on the water as you can to get in shape. If 2 more years makes a differance of $ 70000 in 10 years then you should take it you think you can be sailing for those years.

However, as is pointed out above, If you cannot go then why do the extra 2 years? This is why I went cruising/vacationing now but I am 50+ and will still have to work but I did go. If I waited until I was 68 I do not think I could have stood up to the stresses of small boat voyaging. But that is me.

I suggest that you take off 6 months to a year and do a coastal/Bahamas/Mexico cruise now.

Hey, thanks for the reply. I am only 37 now and in pretty good shape. Just the odd ache and pain 20 years in the Military gives you.

I am actually pretty sure I will complete 25 years to get the complete pension, I will be 43 and have an excellent Kitty built up.

I get itchy feet when my job sucks or the weather turns nasty, but I know it makes the most sense for me to stick it out a couple extra years  to get a better pension.

Good to hear your in good shape.  It's that military stuff that comes back to haunt you around 55.   ::) 

Quote from: Joe Pyrat on December 19, 2008, 11:51:47 AM
Good to hear your in good shape.  It's that military stuff that comes back to haunt you around 55.   ::) 

sheesh! I wish mine had waited till 55  ;D

Given the state of the economy, I have come up with a new funding method...

Lottery tickets!

I'll be striking it rich any day now!

i've thought of this alot so many say wait till retirement but heck i'll be like 60 and can't do anything well no thank you.. I'm single no kids I plan on doing this in 3 and a half years is my goal. I have heard more from older people who say yeah do it while you're young and while I don't want to work forever I am saying I will make this trip before I am 34 for sure. I can't wait till retirement to full fill my dreams screw that. I'm living for today.
sorry to get worked up a little I guess I'm very passionate about living. I come from a very hard working family and I am the one who wants to travel and explore life and everything it offers.

Chris

Then get a job on a schooner like the Virginia (http://www.schoonervirginia.org/career_opportunities.php (http://www.schoonervirginia.org/career_opportunities.php)) put in your sea time, get your captain's license and move on to captaining your own boat.  Check out the crew exchange sections of sites like the Seven Seas Cruising Association (SSCA) board.  Or if you can, attend something like the Maine Maritime Academy take the small vessel operations degree (http://dean.mma.edu/newcatalog/Default.htm (http://dean.mma.edu/newcatalog/Default.htm)) to get a leg up on a sailing career.  Nothing says you can't get paid to go sailing, if you are single and your finances are such that you can afford to take a crew job or go to school, go for it.

Joe - ture but it is not quite the same as going out on your boat and not working on the water.

If one starts out without a boat, it is quite possible to get in a years cruising for $ 15000 or less. That includes buying and outfitting a small cruiser for coastal cruising.

A friend of mine had made sailing and boat work his life.  He was a school teacher, and decided he could do such work at any age, but wanted to see the world while he was young. I asked him about his financing, and he explained he'd stop and work--carpenter, boatyard worker, laborer, truck driver. He would stock the boat for a year except for a bit aside for perishables, a newspaper, or trip ashore.  Then he'd go.  He then reached into his pocket and pulled out some change, counted, and said, "A buck thirty-five.  I'm good for another week."

As for me, right or wrong, I went the other way.  I just turned 65.  I've been dreaming of cruising since I was 20, but providing for a family was priority one.  My wife has a hyperactive nesting gland, so instead of living our lives now that we're "retired," we're living the grankids lives.  Life doesn't stand still.  The conditions of live, health, economy, family that you're expecting to be in place when you retire I can almost guarantee will not be what you expect.  Waiting for retirement is a crock.  It means you're living for security, the security some CEO or pension manager will steal, or the economy will devalue. Or, as happened to an uncle, a week after he retired, the company  closed its doors and the pension he worked 35 years for just vanished.  Life is nothing more than the sum total of your decisions, so there's no sense crying in your beer later if you're the one making the wrong decisiions.  You have to decide what's important, go for it, and be willing to surrender everything else.  You can end up with a large collection of memories, or a large collection of receipts from all the bills you've paid.  If it's important enough, you'll not start planning for it, you'll start doing it today.  As the Pardeys said, go simple, go now, or you'll not go at all.     

If there is anybody interested there is a 16 foot Nortica sailboat for sale in Marathon, Fl for $ 2000.

Small but usable.

My wife got me something for use on the boat that I thought was unique enough to pass on, and it relates to managing cruise funds.  Rather than sitting on your wallet all day, or risk losing it overboard from deck or dinghy, this puts all your funds management in one place and large enough you won't lose it. It's the Fishpond Rimrock Travel Wallet.  It measures 9.5X5 inches, zippers all around, has a zippered compartment inside for currency or traveler's checks, 11 pockets for cards, a place for the checkbook, passport, a pen holder, a large pocket on the outside for anything---they say it was designed for flight boarding passes, is made of almost indestructable materials, and has three loops on the outside to attach it to a chain or belt-loop if carried ashore, making it nearly impossible for anyone to boost your wallet without you knowing it.  You can check it out at fishpondusa.com or flyfishingoutfitters.com.

I am going with less than 1k in paper money, several silver coins and a French franc on the boat. I have a couple bottles of rum and a several new t-shirts in several sizes to barter with but during these times, I don't want to be in the US dollar while the FED constantly devalues it. I am going with several fliers stating I am looking for small side work for food or something that can be used to barter with.


Anybody need a Volvo waterpump?  ;)

Cool plan. I hope it works out  8)

Quote from: Volksdraggin on January 02, 2009, 01:29:26 AMand a French franc on the boat.

I hate to be the one to break it to you about that French Franc..............  :P

LOL I meant a single gold franc coin  :D

Quote from: Volksdraggin on January 02, 2009, 01:29:26 AM
I am going with several fliers stating I am looking for small side work for food or something that can be used to barter with.

Hate to be rude on my first post here, but this is a staggering bad idea outside of your home country. 

In Oceania, if you try to work in a country without a work permit and you are caught, you will be ejected at best.  At worse, you will be fined and if you do not have the resources to pay the fine, your vessel will be siezed and sold to pay the fine.

Moreover, in this day and age, every country in Oceania, including New Zealand and Australia, are notified in case you might go there.  Thus,  you are accorded 'extra attention' wherever you check in as a scoff-law, whether or not you've committed a crime in that country (working illegally).

Working in most of these countries also includes running unofficial ferry services on your yacht, whether or not you are compensated in currency, or in kind, for the service.

Yes, this may not be fair, but there it is.

It is certainly possible to do it all legally (not only ourselves, but other friends have), but it takes a bit of a time commitment (often measured in years), and often a financial investment, in the host country to do so.  People who have specialised skills (sailmakers, riggers, etc.), and where there is no local competition, can sometimes be 'overlooked' if it is done very, very quietly.  For general labour, you are displacing a local person who needs food for themselves and their families.

Addressing the thread as a whole, finances needed are really dependent on whether the sea will become a lifestyle, or if you are going on an extended vacation.

I too, had a grand plan in 1986.  But it's never been easy.  I did a delivery (cash money) early on.  Quickly realised that being paid what amounted to US$0.25/hr (at the time), on a boat with the wet stuff coming in at a horrid rate, that this was not a cost/life effective solution. 

From that time, I've turned wrenches in American Samoa and Hawaii, flogged off hardware, have done financial management stuff in Tonga, ran a gas manufacturing plant in American Samoa, and currently own and operate with partners an electronics manufacturing business in Fiji (Bebi Electronics, http://www.bebi-electronics.com (http://www.bebi-electronics.com), all the while sailing/cruising betwixt and between.

It's been a grand life (so far!) and no complaints, but I can't honestly say how many people I've met in life that I'd recommend it to.

Hi Michael, welcome to Sail-Far.
Looks like you survived New Years  at the Planters Club ;)
Good bunch of sailors here, they've got some opinions but pretty respectful, glad to have you aboard.

Tim

Second the welcome aboard Michael, We just recv'd one if your anchor lights and are delighted with it.

I think your experiences will make a welcome addition to this forum. Please stick around.

Unfortunately opinions are like.....everybody has one :)

Micheal: Its always refreshing to here a first hand account... always puts things into perspective.

Volks!: unfortunately, handing out flyers is not a good idea...you don't see illegal mexicans handing out flyers for construction work do you? (erm...maybe hanging out at home depot is just as bad?) :o But there are always ways to work illegally in any country... of course there is risk, but if you are taking the risk of leaving without enough money to begin with, then you are probably willing to risk working illegally. you just need to be a little smart about it.

From what I see here, I am one of the biggest proponents of the 'go cheap, go now' way of cruising on this site... with that said, I am planning on having an appropriate amount of money saved up.
I think the most 'sensible' (I've been reading "Sensible Cruising" :) ) way to cruise, is to have money saved up, proportionate to your plans and lifestyle choices.
I am planning based on a $500/month budget... that is only because, I currently live on $500/month quite well (minus rent and the various bills that will disappear once I leave).

So if I want a six month cruise, I should have $3000 in the bank, etc.. etc..
I also think its sensible to have a contingency plan... some money put away, or maybe a credit card, that will secure your boat, and get you home in case of an emergency.

I don't think its too out of line to plan on working illegally in other countries.. but I don't think its smart to make it your only plan. If I plan for a 1 year cruise... then end up spending 3 years cruising by spending less money, and making money along the way, then hey, its all good! But the plan at the beginning should be a solid one.

Not that its not possible... I truly believe if you have the will, and some common sense, you can make it on next to nothing.
But the sensible thing to do, is plan for a cruise according to your budget (NOT planning your budget according to your cruise). If all you have is a few grand, then it should be a short cruise.... Don't plan on sailing around the world with no income or proportionate savings. There is nothing wrong with meandering around the bahama's for a year :D

Though not necessarily cruising, I have traveled around cruising areas some, Bahamas, Mexico, and Central America.  From what I have seen you are taking a risk not just from the authorities but also the local people themselves if you try to work illegally doing work they could be doing. It is a quick way to build up resentment that would travel with you.

There might be some skills that you could bring in that where not available but would be appreciated and bargained for I guess. But you have to be real careful you don't step on somebody's toe, because they could belong to big feet. ;)

Quote from: Tim on January 03, 2009, 12:14:37 AM
Though not necessarily cruising, I have traveled around cruising areas some, Bahamas, Mexico, and Central America.  From what I have seen you are taking a risk not just from the authorities but also the local people themselves if you try to work illegally doing work they could be doing. It is a quick way to build up resentment that would travel with you.

There might be some skills that you could bring in that where not available but would be appreciated and bargained for I guess. But you have to be real careful you don't step on somebody's toe, because they could belong to big feet. ;)

I agree completely... I don't mean to suggest anybody should go to a low-income, bad economy area,(or any area) and take jobs away from the locals... But (as you said) having an in-demand skill in any country does not take away from the locals (generally speaking). then again, having an in-demand skill, will most likely be a good way to get a legit work permit.

Having done construction in New Orleans for years, I have plenty of respect for immigration laws... But at the same time, I worked along side with illegal aliens and they were not taking money out of my pocket. Granted, every country/state/city will be different.. thats why I suggest being "smart" about it. Not only to keep from getting caught.. but also to be respectful of the locals.
Working illegally in any country will be similar to illegal workers here in america... you take what you can get, and you don't complain, and keep you nose clean, and you stay out of trouble...
The people that are hiring illegal aliens are likely to understand what that means, and therefore, not likely to put you into a situation where your safety will be at risk. Of course, again, that is all dependent on where you are and what the specific situation is... Just be smart.

I am only basing this on the reading I have done, and from what I see, there have been plenty of people who have done ok working all types of jobs in all types of countries...I am definately not saying this is the way to go!!!!! I am just suggesting that you shouldn't fear it, and if you are careful and hungry, you can work anywhere.

Or if you were really smart, save the money and leave without having to worry about work :)

Although I have spent a fair amount of time in foreign countries (albeit without boat) I have never worked abroad - basically out of laziness, and of course Visa / Work permit issues  ;D But their are always Western folk "getting by" - although some better than others..........

My plan would be (is?) to work out in advance where you will be able to find work and plan your trip accordingly - and just accept that in some places this is unlikely or only for fellow cruisers. In general the best places to work illegally would be in a western style economy, but not exclusively. And of course you have the opportunity to not only work for other people but for yourself, especially if you are comfortable trading - of course speaking the local lingo is a big advantage, if not essential - at least to improve your take $$$ wise. And just because you do not intend / need to work somewhere doesn't mean not research the place for work opportunities as next year you may do......and sometimes things turn up unexpectedly which would be silly to turn down.

I also would not be afraid to decide that the best place (Dollar for effort / time) to work is home (wherever that is) and to hop on an aeroplane back if no longer in sailing distance. That is something you can plan / research for before you leave. Indeed no reason why hopping on an aeroplane back to somewhere else you already know could not be an option, if the numbers $$$ stack up.

The longer one is in a country the easier it is to understand yourself in practice what is doable and what is not advisable.....hence maybe having places to work on your circuit as returning to areas and people / contacts you know already saves a lot of learning curve.

I've gotta get off me backside myself  ::)

I have duel citizenship for Mexico so I am not worried about being illegal but I don't mean to come off tactless or even racist, but when I lived in Mexico, I noticed many people who found it reassuring to have a blonde haired/blue eyed person walk their dog down the beach while they cleaned their boat or other trivial bits of labor they needed tended to buy were to shy/scared to ask a local.  I will be stopping near family property about 80 miles Southwest of Cancun where I am looking to go for a month or so before I decide where I plan to bum about next. I have also considered working at resorts for a short period of time to bring in a little income.


Gosh and I figured I was being clever with my little flyer.  :-\  :D

I have never been to Mexico, but if you are a "local" and also speak the lingo that's a big big plus coupled with knowing how to deal with the Gringos (no idea if that is a non PC term  :o) you describe and what they want then could well be onto a good thing........from my experiances of "abroad" foreign visitors tend to trust (and over trust) those of their own foreign nationality or at least those who share a native tongue or are a fellow Westerner........especially those who accidently (or deliberately) isolate themselves from day to day ordinary life and lack the lingo skills and confidence to deal with the locals......not saying this is good or bad thing, I reckon just human nature (I can be as good or as bad as anyone else on this).....albeit, as I said, I have never been to Mexico.

As they say "cut out the middle man"....or be one  8)

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome, I promise not to wear it out.

Volksdraggin, David_Old_Jersey  has things pretty much sussed in his post about working.

I've been thinking more about the people I know who have survived for long-term sailing (>20 years) without large amounts of cash, or trust funds, and what they have in common.  In addition to what David_Old_Jersey wrote:

Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on January 03, 2009, 04:49:18 AM
...My plan would be (is?) to work out in advance where you will be able to find work and plan your trip accordingly ...etc.

, these are our (this is a joint effort between Kendra and I) thoughts:

First is attitude.  Just like 6 people in a life raft will die in the first week (without teeth marks  ;D ), but the 7th will make it 190 days, not accepting anything less than thriving is key.

Second is personal skills.  All of the folks I'm thinking of are highly skilled in at  least one field, most many more than that.  I'm a firm believer that the best investment a 'wanna-be' cruiser can make is in themselves, not gear and gizmos (but don't let that hold you back from buying our lights, I meant everyone else's stuff!  ;) )!  My Uncle Eddie told me when I was young that if I had a trade AND a profession, I'd never go hungry, and he's been right.

Third is a willingness to live at a level approximating that of locals.  Lots of beans and rice, light on alcohol (a very expensive hole which is all too easy to fall into).

Lastly (at least for right now) is flexibility.  If you are a surgeon, but the only thing open is pouring concrete, learn to love concrete!

I'm beginning to think that I may not be able to make the scoot,  but now my tentative date for leaving on a cruise is mid may 2o1o.  I am planning on taking some cash , have money in my debit card available, taking some items to barter with and doing handyman jobs.  That 's my plan for now depends upon how the lawyers come out.  Marc

Purchase some gold.  :D

May I sugest DON'T USE YOU'RE DEBIT CARD because say you go buy something and they double charge you well that money is GONE, out you're account. I would say it would be alot safer to use a visa card or whatever that will be accepted anywhere in the world. I recently bought a book and was double charge now I got it all worked out but learned it is safer to use a visa card then a debit card or you can have a debit card just make sure when it is empty it is empty and have someone back home put more money on it. This is what I plan to do when I take off
not sure how much cash I will have on me I'll figure that out when I leave.

Chris

Using a "debit check card" is a really bad idea.  Any losses from a debit check card are far harder to dispute, especially if you're overseas at the time of the loss and the losses are overseas where you are.  The money that is "charged" to a debit card is cash taken out of your account electronically, and gone forever in most cases.  I generally recommend carrying an ATM card, which can be used for cash withdrawals and can be often used to purchase things, but requires a PIN code.  Copying the name, number and expiration date off of it does nothing for most common thieves—unlike a "check card".

Some credit card companies have "disposable credit card numbers". You can make a purchase online with a one time number, and not worry about someone stealing your card info. I would think there would be a use for one time numbers on a cruise.

I recently got an online-only account from hsbc, (hsbcdirect) it comes with a debit card, and you can move money to and from any bank accounts you have with other banks.

I was thinking this would work out well while traveling.

I could keep my kitty in my main account. Keep all the account info/cards/checks safe at home. Then once a month or so, get online and transfer whatever I plan to spend that month into my hsbc account. I could then either withdraw cash from atms or use the debit card for purchases (or a credit card if need be), with the security of a worse-case loss of one months funds. If need be, hsbc can also cut a check from your account and mail it to you. Deposits are done by mail as well.

In the case of a total loss from the hsbc account, I would still have access to my regular account at home by the usual bank-to-bank transfer, or get something (a card or check) sent by mail.

BTW: as far as I can tell, even the 'debit only' cards, can be used at POS without a PIN... maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen an ATM-only card in years :) the debit cards these days work just like a check card, but with the option of using a pin at the store (usually for a fee!!).
Are atm-only usually available and i just haven't  seen them, maybe on an ask only basis??

Quote from: dnice on January 10, 2009, 11:27:57 PMThen once a month or so, get online and transfer whatever I plan to spend that month into my hsbc account. I could then either withdraw cash from atms or use the debit card for purchases (or a credit card if need be), with the security of a worse-case loss of one months funds.

I was thinking something similar - maybe with a regular standing order monthly transfer from Deposit to Debit card account.....which I could top up online as and when needed. The internet access thing to online accounts makes me nervous when abroad, unless I was using my own connection rather than from an internet cafe.

Was also thinking of having 2 (or even 3?) Debit card Accounts (whether at the same bank or not), so that if I ever lost a card I could still easily access funds (15 years ago I had an ATM eat my card when abroad - really frustrating having money, but simply not being able to access it  :() I haven't had any Credit Cards for around 15 years, but I would probably apply for one as an emergency use only back up.

My plan is also to have my mail sent to someone I Trust back home to sit on for me, but also so that if I ever need a replacement card they could DHL it to me anywhere in the world. I would probably also leave them a couple of signed cheques so that they could Western Union cash to me. But I only have a couple of people I would trust with that one  :P But it is something I have done before when down in Asia for extended periods and works ok for me, as well as opening a local bank account if in an area for quite a while.

Quote
BTW: as far as I can tell, even the 'debit only' cards, can be used at POS without a PIN... maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen an ATM-only card in years :) the debit cards these days work just like a check card, but with the option of using a pin at the store (usually for a fee!!).
Are atm-only usually available and i just haven't  seen them, maybe on an ask only basis??

In this part of the world (UK) it is now normal for POS to require a PIN. Same in France, can't remember elsewhere in Europe  ???. For a Debit Card to work internationally the bank needs to be part of an international network. IME Visa seems to be the most widespread...........but I have not been to the Carribean. (I can't remember if Mastercard is still seperate  :P but also a good one, not sure whether the US banks routinely have the symbols for these on their Cards - both Credit and Debit).

American Express also now sell "Travellers Cheques" in the form of preloaded Debit cards. I have not used them yet or checked their cost closely, but as usable the same way as a Credit or Debit card (ATM or POS) seem a tempting way of keeping some emergency cash onboard (not sure whether they have an expiry date though  ::)).....even though the downside is no interest on your money.......

Quite interesting is the number of establishments I've seen lately with signs on the registers or doors-

"We no longer accept American Express"

Wonder why?

Different cards charge the retailer different fees.Wondering if amex has upped their fees?

We don't take American Express, because the fees are close to 5%. That's almost twice as much as other cards. Everyone seems to have a Visa or MC anyway, so we don't lose any sales.

At least here, in Scandinavia, Amex always had a kinda bad rep. with the retailers/shop owners for charging them a LOT more than Visa/MasterCard etc.

That's not just in Scandinavia... :)

I agree with the other comments about Amex.

However, when I was living in Europe (about 15 years ago now), I had my Amex card linked to my personal checking account back in the USA.

I was able to write myself a check at any local American Express office (there was a $200 maximum in some countries, but not in all), and draw the equivalent in local currency with no extra charge. It was mighty convenient.

Still, the fee is high and retailers don't like the card. I don't know if other cards will do the same thing.

--Joe

Quote from: Oldrig on January 11, 2009, 04:28:53 PM
I agree with the other comments about Amex.

I think AMEX is called a "Charge Card" for more than the one reason  ::)

In this part of the world also known for charging the retailers higher fees, and accordingly not welcome everywhere.

I've always just started off with a debit card and a stack of hundreds.. and watched it all disapear. Only in 2005 when I was hurt in Santa Catalina did I have to simply work off the island where I was moored...

I am considering using a prepaid Visa that is/was available through Western Union.  My plan was to have several cards of some standard amount.   I would stash them somewhere on the boat and use one at a time.  Therefore if it, or the numbers, got stolen I would only be out some percentage of the kitty.   Same philosophy as separate water tanks or so. 

Todd

Has anyone on this list gone to school and got their shipwright technical training, then tried living in marinas with their tools and their smarts? I know that is what L&L did for a while till they became famous authors. (that is live off their tools, I don't know if they had training) I am seriously considering doing the same.

well, I didn't go to school for it, but when I was cruising on my Cross 35 trimaran, I made money stopping and working in boatyards.

Pulled into Ft Pierce Florida one Tuesday with a quarter aboard as my only hard currency, and by Friday evening had made $500 cash. The yard manager asked me what experience I had and I pointed to the tri riding at anchor and told him " I built that". I was working on a job doing some wood work on a boat ten minutes later.

That's just one example. I also worked as deck hand on a tow and salvage boat in Boot Key Harbor for a month or so. And since I had Hookah gear aboard, I worked as a salvage diver on occasion.

I was MUCH younger at the time- 41 years old. Now, at 68, I'll depend on my retirement checks instead of diving, thank you ;D ;D But I WILL have a certain amount of my woodworking tools aboard.

A bunch of the live aboards here do boat work for hire.  I don't think any of them have been to school for it.

The services range from simple brightwork finishing, light glass work, canvas work, etc, to major engine repairs and the like.

There are so many, in fact, that I have not thrown my hat into the ring.

I agree, I have done odd jobs around boats too (mostly on my own) but I am getting serious about increasing my skills. Looked at Northwest School of wooden boatbuilding the other day, and I think I could spare a year of my life to learn boats in depth, including building beautiful canoes and small wood ones. I will be building big boats too, but probably won't do that professionally. Now cabin renovation- that looks fun.

When I was 'camping out' on an Irwin 25 in Sarasota, one of my neighbors was a guy who called himself 'Hobie.'   He had a very nice boat, I can't recall the Make.  But he kept his boat in Bristol order and used it as his calling card.   I don't think he did a lot of major surgery, but he seemed to eat fairly well on painting, polishing, varnishing and general upkeep of other's boats.  Sort of the low tech version of "I built that." 

Ironically, he claimed that he had hurt his back at work and bought the boat with the settlement.  The back didn't seem to bother him much. 

I plan to get my CD28 to that point and keep her that way, so that I can point to her, and maybe a "before" picture, and say I resurrected that.  :o)

Todd

Quote from: sailorbum on February 18, 2009, 08:57:37 AM

I plan to get my CD28 to that point and keep her that way, so that I can point to her, and maybe a "before" picture, and say I resurrected that.  :o)

Ya mean sorta like these two- before and after on Tehani

Quote from: sailorbum on February 18, 2009, 08:57:37 AMhe kept his boat in Bristol order and used it as his calling card.   

I think that is a great idea  8)

Grog to CharlieJ.   His before and after are much more dramatic than mine are going to be.  However, I failed to get a good picture of the .50" of black mayonnaise that I cleaned out of the bilge.   One of the diesel tanks failed during the PO's tenure.   They did a great job of cleaning her up except the last aft 5' of bilge.   :)

Todd

CharlieJ

Hats off to you, most wouldn't see the boat through the debris.

Of all the unlikely places as Arkansas there is a fellow at the marina on Lake Dardanelle who does upkeep on other peoples boats and stays fairly busy. Mostly paint and wax and other small jobs.  Also makes a good cup of Coffey, used to be a tow boat Captain on Arkansas, Mississippi and Ohio.

I have run into men and women in most ports who get by by working around on others boats or commercial fishing boats in season.  One skill that seems in short supply is GOOD marine electricians.  Lots of wantabes but few good ones out there.

Lifted from the Scooter Finances (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2266.0) thread:

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 05, 2009, 10:27:15 AM

  Suffice to say that as it relates to cruising, it is likely that today's dollar will buy quite a bit less in a few years.  Those with fixed income streams, or a pile of cash that they are planning to cruise on will likely have some challenges ahead.

This part got me to thinking (a dangerous thing, I know).  Could this then be an argument against ANY kind of investment or attempt at savings?

All investment is a risk.  Saving cash under your bed does not keep pace with inflation.  So, my theory goes, the only way to insure that the money you have is worth as much as it can be TODAY is to earn it TODAY.

Another pro for 'earn as you go' cruising or hogwash? 

Depends on how bad the inflation gets... If inflation stays relatively low, then having good investments is probably a worthwhile thing... if inflation goes up significantly, then earning as you go might be the better option. :)  Or investing it in hard goods, like gold, and using that as a trade good. :)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 06, 2009, 08:06:06 AMThis part got me to thinking (a dangerous thing, I know).  Could this then be an argument against ANY kind of investment or attempt at savings?

All investment is a risk.  Saving cash under your bed does not keep pace with inflation.  So, my theory goes, the only way to insure that the money you have is worth as much as it can be TODAY is to earn it TODAY.

Another pro for 'earn as you go' cruising or hogwash? 

If inflation goes up, real estate has always been great. At least as long as I remember... which is back to the 70-s, if I recall THAT right. ::) 8) ???

wish I had gone cruising 30 years ago, but was a coward ;) ;D ;)

Inflation

OK wasn't the reason for inflation related to supply and demand.  If a lot of people have a lot of money to spend, price goes up because of demand.

If that is true then shouldn't price go down because of high unemployment and stolen investments and retirement funds,  shouldn't that mean that cash hidden in jars in back yard become more valuable.

Oops just figured that out, paper money has no value as gov. just prints more and gives it away to friends.

QuoteOops just figured that out, paper money has no value as gov. just prints more and gives it away to friends.

Yeah, that's the problem. The more dollars that are out there, the less each is effectively worth.  Simple supply and demand.  If dollars are a scarce resource, then they're more valuable than if they're plentiful.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 07, 2009, 06:15:07 AM
If dollars are a scarce resource, then they're more valuable than if they're plentiful.

;D ;D

Is THAT the reason they are SO valuable at our house?? Cause they sure aren't plentiful

;D ;D

Adequate yes, plentiful, no. But then they never have been and we've done well.

Finally an answer to all our questions!!!

the cruising expense calculator (http://www.geocities.com/bill_dietrich/MoneyNeeded.html) :)

"I spent most of my money on women and boats, the rest I wasted."

Hello everyone,  I'm sorry to be a pain in the....  I  am still concerned about making  at least "some" $ out there.  What do you think about bartending ?  I've done a fair amt. of that although I really prefer the other side of the bar of course.

Once I feel more confident about this I can relax a bit.

BTW  If anyone is in the Tarpon Springs area of Florida we have had some great sailing days lately havn't we ?

Besides you can pull into the dock and have some souvlaki and maybe ouzo !!!

Anyway, has anyone had the experience of bartending in the islands ?  I gotta know....Thanks,Jerry

This week, my daughter, age 6, earned her first "professional" boat project money.

A dude at the marina needed her to access a small space to clean it out.  He COULD do it, but decided it would be quicker and easier for her, so...

She earned $2 to do it for him.  Not bad for a few minutes worth of work.

Goes to show...you got to play to your strengths.  One of her strengths at present is her small size.  She used it to advantage.

;D

Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 02, 2009, 12:14:00 AM


Goes to show...you got to play to your strengths.  One of her strengths at present is her small size.  She used it to advantage.

;D

Great! She needs a business card "Am Small Will Work"

Quote from: Tim on May 02, 2009, 12:17:29 AM

Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 02, 2009, 12:14:00 AM


Goes to show...you got to play to your strengths.  One of her strengths at present is her small size.  She used it to advantage.

;D

Great! She needs a business card "Am Small Will Work"

Or better:

"Will Fit In Bilge...Will Work"

;D

Good Luck, Not much work out there. What there is does not pay well.

Learn to work in a bar.

Good luck.