New sails!

[thistlecap]

In searching for a sailmaker, I'd recommend including Concord Point Sails and Rigging in your search.  Contact Vince Townrow at 410-939-2196 (311 St. John Street, Havre de Grace, MD 21078).  After getting sails from a number of places, I settled on Vince's work, and have used his work for the last 40 years.  He's done anything from racing sails to heavy sails for Arctic expeditions, dinghies to square-riggers.  He has a low advertising budget, but has a devoted and appreciative following.  Most sailmakers consider everything you might want as an add-on for an additional charge.  Vince has always held to the idea that there are certain things you should expect in a well-made sail---triple stitching, heavily reinforced stress points, leathered head-tack-and clew cringles---and they should therefore be included in the standard sail. 

[Amgine]

Oldrig: You'll be happy to learn that during discussions with the sail loft today he assured me the 100% jib is being cut to work exclusively on the inside track. Which is really cool. The sail will set well inside the spreaders, and the leech will come about 1" forward of the spreader, so it should theoretically be able to sheet in amazingly close to the wind. Of course I have no clue what the polars will look like - probably they'd show nothing inside of 50° is effective.

On the other hand, I now know I will *not* be getting roller bearing cars, but will be getting the next best thing. And I have a bazillion other pieces of hardware to figure out before the sails are delivered too. It was an enlightening and confusing meeting.

[Amgine]

Word today from the sail loft that the new skirts are completed except waiting on some hardware for the battens and new hanks, both of which are expected within the week.

So now I'm getting even more impatient, and wishing the weather would give us a warming break!

[Amgine]

The sails were done today!!

Okay, picking up new sails is kind of a weird experience. We unrolled all the sails, and I ooohed and aaaahed over all the details. I was stunned by the look of the new skirts, a nice café au lait color with much better stitching than I'd done on my kit sail jib. I oggled the hardware, asked questions about the reefs. I signed on the dotted line and paid the shot.

Now, 6 hours later, I'm kicking myself for not looking more closely at the batten hardware (I asked for luff cars, but I don't actually remember if, during my inspection, they had been installed!) I'm a little annoyed the reef patches were somewhat minimal - yes, I knew this sailmaker was race-oriented—all local lofts seem to be race-oriented—but I had specified long-distance cruising sails and I guess I just sort of assumed they'd plan on a reef band plus large patches and penants. What I got was pretty minimal patches and grommets—good enough for furling the reef, but not enough if the reef clew fails for some reason. I still need to purchase the new boom hardware to rig at least two of three reefs, plus pennants or a reefing line to sew through.

At the same time, I'm soooooo psyched about bending on this intense 4 full-length battens mainsail and new jibs (100% and 130% genoa) and putting them through their paces, and ordering the new assym we've been talking over for the past 6 months.... I think I may just move aboard in the next few weeks so I can take the boat out and practice every time there's a faint breeze on the Indian Arm...

[AdriftAtSea]

Congrats on the new threads for your boat. :) When can we see photos. :)

[Amgine]

::Laugh!:: I didn't even think to bring the camera! I should have, because it was gale warning (but sunny!) at the boat, and back to the more usual rain, rain and storm, rain pattern today. I think the only chance I'll have to see the sails was that 15 minutes at the loft!

But I'll get the camera out and down to the boat at the first weather break. There looks like there may be a weather break on Friday or Saturday.

I did want to ask everyone here about a 'feature' of the main - a 'foot-pocket'. Instead of a cunningham/flattening reef, they used a stretchy panel which, when the outhaul is tautened,  flattens to a horizontal wrinkle. The footrope apparently is cut long (or is also stretchy). I've never even heard of this technology, and being pretty conservative I'm kind of dubious, so I figured I'd ask the members of the forum if they've ever heard of, seen, or worked with this kind of rig?

[AdriftAtSea]

That's a new one to me... now I really want to see photos. :)

[s/v Faith]

Wow!

  Sounds like a great idea, as long as the material they make the 'stretchy' pannel out of lasts over the long haul.
I would have to see more, but as you describe it I see great opportunity for developing lift in low winds, with no impact on flattening out in a blow.

  Hope the design works out for you, I will look forward to hearing more.

[rtbates]

Full batten, lots of roach? Does your 25D need or even want all that main?

My 25D needs/wants little main. My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.


I hope you and your 25D enjoy the new sails.

[Captain Smollett]

My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.

As will mine.  I'm thinking loose-footed as well.

[CharlieJ]

My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.

That's what mine is NOW. 3 rows of reef points, slightly hollow leech and zero battens- I'll never go back  to a battened sail on a cruising boat.

[Amgine]

Not roachy. In fact, there didn't seem to be much of any round, but I have to admit I was looking far more closely at the dog bone rings (never had those before) and the erector-like headboard. I'll have to look at the roach when I get around to taking pictures/bending on the main. Four full-length battens evenly spaced up the sail should mean quiet and shape control, but I don't know since I've never sailed with this kind of main before.

Three reefs; the maker said the third is actually the same area as a storm trysail would be for the 25D. I'm adding hardware to the boom to rig two reefs. I'm actually a bit indecisive about rigging all three all the time; I think I'll keep 1st and 2nd rigged, and if I put in reef #2 I will take the time then to rig #3 using the #1 reef line. Which means measuring the #1 line for the #3 reef. No, strike that, both the reef lines need to be able to be the #3 reef in a pinch.

I've had a couple sail maker friends, and was the program director for a yacht club which had a small fleet of keelboats heavily used by college students. I'm pretty aware of the additional chafe and damage caused by battens, and I expect to lose about 10% of the life expectancy of the sail compared to a battenless set up. If I were sailing a few weekends a month during the warmest months of the year that would be a couple years lost. But if I were cruising full time that would be about 6 months lost. I hope I can live with buying sails 6 months sooner than I otherwise would need to, in exchange for the benefits the battens can provide, but I'm very aware other people don't have the same values.

[Oldrig]

Amgine and Randy:

As another 25D owner, I'm really intrigued by the idea of that third reef point--although I've been out in some pretty heavy weather under two reefs. Keep us posted on how well it works.

I guess I'm too much of a fuddy-duddy to eliminate battens--although they do get in the way whenever you reef down.

--Joe

[AdriftAtSea]

Why not setup a third reef line for the third reef???

[CharlieJ]

I guess I'm too much of a fuddy-duddy to eliminate battens--although they do get in the way whenever you reef down.

Originally a racing ploy to increase sail area. as the roach was not measured area. I've had sailmakers tell me that repairing torn batten pockets was  "bread and butter" for them. I got rid of them long ago I had battenless sails ( main and mizzen ) on my Cross trimaran. By the way- one of the things the Pardeys advocate also.

One huge advantage is not having to come head to wind ( or close to that) to raise and lower sail- we commonly do that on whatever heading we are sailing, including downwind. With battens you run the risk of hanging them on shrouds, particularly when hoisting sailing downwind. And when cruising in out of the way places, sometimes you just plain don't have time or room to come head to wind to get sail up.

And don't say "well, I'll just crank the engine" If you're gonna cruise long distances, you BETTER be able to SAIL the boat- relying on the engine can get you in deep doodoo.

(stepping down  off the soapbox now) ;D

Of course, your full battens might negate that "hanging up" problem- I've never sailed aboard a boat with full battens other than a Prindle 18 or a Chinese junk rig, so  don't know.

Why not setup a third reef line for the third reef???

I keep my third reef point empty also. I figure that if and when I need it, I'll be able to rig it.   But for day sailing, and the shorter cruises we are doing now, I see no need to have the chafe on the line.

Now if I were sailing offshore for a longer passage, I'd certainly reeve that line. But for coastal cruising, I figure I'll have plenty of warning. Of course I really hope to never need that third reef point :)

But I would most certainly NOT ever plan on using the line from a previous reef. Mine are color coded- red white and blue, for first, second, third. If I must take that third reef, I sure as H**L won't be wanting to remove the first one before taking it.

[Amgine]

Third reef line:

Most boats will, literally, never use the third reef. I sure hope *I* never use it. So having the longest reef line constantly exposed to sun, chafe, and - most importantly in my opinion - swinging and chafing the stitching across the largest number of sail panels seems less than useful all of the time.

For my boom there just isn't enough real-estate to have three reefs on the starboard side. I consider it a safety issue to have the reefs on the same side of the mast as the main halyard; it seems dangerous to me to top up and drop the main on one side, then hop around to the other to haul in the reef, than hop back around to tension the halyard and release the topping lift, then back to coil down... I have plans at some point to bring everything back to the cockpit which would make this issue moot, but that's not what I have today.

For the same reason - safety by minimizing actions required - I figure moving the #1 reef to the #3 reef is less dangerous. I will have just put in the #2 reef, and while at the mast I can release the #1. Then at the boom end I untie the bitter end from the #1 strap, unreeve from the #1 clew and reeve through the #3, and down to the  #3 strap on the boom. Then back to the mast to tension the halyard, coil down. I figure this is fewer steps than reeving a third line from the gooseneck aft.

When you're coastal cruising you should have plenty of time to avoid being surprised by weather. I don't know about you, but I've been regularly surprised while coasting, especially when the navigation is tricky and I have guests aboard and I'm trying to pull off something more than opening a can in the galley... On the other hand, when I've been off on my own for a while with the autopilot going I fall into pattern of listening to the weather and logging it along with my barometer readings and random notes about what I see (I move into the cockpit for the entire time I'm moving, going below mostly for food, gear, clothing additions/removal.) I hope I'll continue this trend, and be more aware of the weather offshore than nearshore.

Battens:

I'm trying this full-battened sail for the first time. I've had battenless sails, sails with short battens, and sails with more than one spar, but full-battens are new for me. Maybe they'll be better for me, maybe not. I'll find out. I have an open mind.

[Captain Smollett]

Re: reeving higher reef lines vs chafe.

Saw a heavy weather sailing video a few months back that had a good approach to this.  On that boat, they kept the first reef line rigged all the time, with a very light messenger line reeved for the second reef.

When the first reef was tucked in, they used the messenger to pull the second reef line up to the second reef clew and were thus ready to tuck in that second reef in a flash - all without leaving the line in place all the time.

Seems like this approach could be easily adapted to the third reef as well.

[CharlieJ]

Now THAT's a decent idea ;)

[s/v Faith]

I have been very happy with my full batten main.  I would probably not want to go back to partial battens, but love the shape, and control the battens give me.  I also find it easier to stow the sail with full battens.

  I have not seen wear, and most who have had long term full batten sails do not report problems with it either.  The same in not true for the batten pockets in partial batten sails.

[rtbates]

My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.

As will mine.  I'm thinking loose-footed as well.

Loose footed for sure. I had my present main made loose footed from slugs.