Wind-vane: Now? Or wait for next boat?

[Rick Westlake]

I have a Bristol 29.9, "Halcyon," which I sail single-handed on the Chesapeake Bay; she's a great boat for what I'm doing now, but I have dreams of "sailing beyond the sunset" and I don't feel that she's big enough for me to follow them. She is enough boat for me to try out the cruising lifestyle, though, and she's perfect for me as long as I've also got a shoreside home.

Single-handing means I need an "iron helmsman" of some sort. I have a Raymarine wheel pilot which does a decent job, but it's thirsty for amps, especially if there's some motion on the boat. Even set at the lowest response level, "Otto" reacts to every roll, with a constant "bzzzt - bzzzt - bzzzt" when I'm close-reaching in that Chesapeake chop. It demands a lot of my batteries. The modest solar-panel array I've got on the boat isn't enough to keep up with it; I don't have a lot more good real-estate for more solar panels, and I'm pessimistic that more solar would keep up with Otto's demands.

So I'm pondering the notion of adding a Cape Horn wind-vane. It looks like the best choice - the cleanest, least-cluttered wind vane out there, with no lines to trip over and dodge in the cockpit. But installing it is major surgery, with a two-inch hole in the transom for the main mounting tube, braces inside and outside, and control-line leads in the aft lazarette. And if I do "move up" to more boat, some day, the Cape Horn would not be moving up with me.

I don't see myself moving up in the next one or two years, though.

Buy now, sail now - or wait for a "move up" that may or may not take place?

Any thoughts?

[sailor]

I would not do it if I was expecting to change the boat soon.
Also - $3k for the wind vane would buy a lot of solar panels and batteries.
Have you actually measured energy consumption of the wheel pilot?
How many hours per day are you running it?
Can you upgrade solar to more efficient (similar footprint,  more power) panels?
How many peak Wats total is your array now?
Can you get by installing bigger batteries (golf cart or L16 size) and charging from shore power when available?
I'm guesstimating a fully charged pair of good GC batteries should be enough for over 60 hours of Otto's work (I assumed 50% duty and came up with 3.9A for S1 Otto from here: http://www.georgesme.com/products/details.asp?prodid=199 ) without any recharging.

[rorik]

It took me six hours - alone - to install my Cap Horn wind vane on my Cape Dory 28 - start to to finish, including the blocks to run the control lines to the tiller and some small mods to the tiller.

The boat was in the water while I did this.

If you were so inclined to install a Cape Horn, removal would be faster than installation and any competent yard can patch a couple of holes and match gel coat.

My .0000000002 (adjusted for inflation).

[Rick Westlake]

I would not do it if I was expecting to change the boat soon.

That's part of my quandary. This is a near-perfect boat for me - as long as I maintain a shoreside home. I could gunkhole the Bahamas very handily, take her down into the Caribbean, 'most all of it; but I'm afraid she's too small to serve as my only home.

Also - $3k for the wind vane would buy a lot of solar panels and batteries.
Have you actually measured energy consumption of the wheel pilot?
How many hours per day are you running it?

Haven't measured its actual consumption, but Raymarine's installation manual says "Drive motor output: Continuous 5 A at nominal 12 V." Now, the motor's not running continuously, but when the chop is high, and I'm on a close or a beam reach, the A/P shifts the wheel back and forth with each roll. So maybe not quite 50% duty.

I use it pretty-much continuously, under way. I'm always single-handing; the A/P keeps the boat on course while I do everything else.

Can you upgrade solar to more efficient (similar footprint,  more power) panels?
How many peak Wats total is your array now?

Currently I've got 48 watts nominal, two 24-watt Sunwize Solcharger panels atop the hatch hood.

I'm considering some more panels on the foredeck, between the cabin-house and the anchor-rode locker. I could fit a 50-watt Aurinco panel up there - the kind that can be stepped on without getting damaged - or even three 25-watt panels. They aren't cheap, but it's true that three 25-watt panels would cost less than 1/3 the price of the Cape Horn "Jean-du-Sud" windvane that'd fit my boat.

Would they keep up with the autopilot, though? That's the big question.

Can you get by installing bigger batteries (golf cart or L16 size) and charging from shore power when available?
I'm guesstimating a fully charged pair of good GC batteries should be enough for over 60 hours of Otto's work (I assumed 50% duty and came up with 3.9A for S1 Otto from here: http://www.georgesme.com/products/details.asp?prodid=199 ) without any recharging.

I've looked into bigger batteries, too. I'd have to rip out my battery box and build a new one to fit them, and there isn't much room for that in the lazarette. But I'd still have to charge them ... and shore power is not an option I'm going to entertain. I intend to keep Halcyon as simple and self-sufficient as I can.

Thanks for your ideas, though. I may well try adding more solar panels, it might be enough.

[Rick Westlake]

It took me six hours - alone - to install my Cap Horn wind vane on my Cape Dory 28 - start to to finish, including the blocks to run the control lines to the tiller and some small mods to the tiller.

The boat was in the water while I did this.

If you were so inclined to install a Cape Horn, removal would be faster than installation and any competent yard can patch a couple of holes and match gel coat.

My .0000000002 (adjusted for inflation).

I hope you're getting good results with your Cape Horn! Is that your boat in the photos on the Cape Horn website? It's interesting for me to see how it's rigged in a tiller boat, with the control lines attached to an elongated steering-oar arm. I suppose that's exactly what Yves Gelinas used on his original rig, on his Alberg 30.

My boat has a wheel, so I'd be installing the Cape Horn with a steering-oar quadrant inside the stern, and the lines and tackle mounted around and inside the rudder-quadrant box. I've taken measurements and photos galore inside the aft lazarette and the steering box, ready to provide it to Cape Horn if I decide to buy the rig.

Rorik, I'm curious about where and how you're sailing your Cape Dory, and how the wind-vane is working out for you.

[Bob J (ex-misfits)]

Here's another windvane that some folks are using & they are less expensive. I haven't seen anyone knock this product. http://www.selfsteering.com/Introduction.asp

You mentioned your raymarine ap is thirsty for amps. Is it tied in with the wind instrument so you sail with the wind or are you trying to maintain a compass course? Just curious..

[Jim_ME]

Single-handing means I need an "iron helmsman" of some sort. I have a Raymarine wheel pilot which does a decent job, but it's thirsty for amps, especially if there's some motion on the boat. Even set at the lowest response level, "Otto" reacts to every roll, with a constant "bzzzt - bzzzt - bzzzt" when I'm close-reaching in that Chesapeake chop. It demands a lot of my batteries.

One thought is how much more directly and quickly a tiller can react to these small course corrections than a wheel, and perhaps a tiller pilot as compared to a wheel pilot. Would that also mean using less power? Wonder whether anyone has converted a wheel to a tiller to take advantage of this? (Since boats of this size were often offered with either a wheel or tiller)

[rorik]

It took me six hours - alone - to install my Cap Horn wind vane on my Cape Dory 28 - start to to finish, including the blocks to run the control lines to the tiller and some small mods to the tiller.

The boat was in the water while I did this.

If you were so inclined to install a Cape Horn, removal would be faster than installation and any competent yard can patch a couple of holes and match gel coat.

My .0000000002 (adjusted for inflation).

I hope you're getting good results with your Cape Horn! Is that your boat in the photos on the Cape Horn website? It's interesting for me to see how it's rigged in a tiller boat, with the control lines attached to an elongated steering-oar arm. I suppose that's exactly what Yves Gelinas used on his original rig, on his Alberg 30.

My boat has a wheel, so I'd be installing the Cape Horn with a steering-oar quadrant inside the stern, and the lines and tackle mounted around and inside the rudder-quadrant box. I've taken measurements and photos galore inside the aft lazarette and the steering box, ready to provide it to Cape Horn if I decide to buy the rig.

Rorik, I'm curious about where and how you're sailing your Cape Dory, and how the wind-vane is working out for you.

My results so far are almost nil due to very, very limited time to actually sail right now combined with fluky winds and short trips. The last trip I made of 36 miles there was no wind and fog going to my destination and no wind and rain on the return drip.  ;D
The boat on the website is not my boat. If you want pictures of mine, I can try to find my camera.
Yves and his nephew Eric were great to work with, answering questions, etc. I think they're the single most helpful vendor I've ever worked with.
I don't really have any "plans" per se..... other than being a singlehander 98% of the time.
I dislike having to rely on electricity which means a tiller pilot is out of the question.
Even if the Cape Horn only gets used for half an hour at a time in my home waters of Puget Sound so that I can make a meal, use the head, etc while still making progress, rather than heaving to, I still think it was worth installing.
And sometimes, the helmsman just needs a break to enjoy the scenery.
Or, to let the helmsman rest a bit, or find the magnifying glass for the 3 point font on the charts.

As for the Norvane, to my eye it doesn't appear as robustly built as the Cape Horn or as simple to install or operate.
The single hardest part of the Cape Horn installation is the last really deep breath you take right before you drill a really big hole in your transom.

[CharlieJ]

I think that depends totally on the boat. Tehani steers so easily, with so little tiller movement, almost anything will work- watch the tiller move in the video with sheet to tiller driving. Turn your sound down- the audio sux

Edited to correct link to video. Sorry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

I had a trimaran with a wheel, and it seemed to work a bit more, although it's hard to recall.

I have a wind vane about 2/3 built, from the Belcher book, but really haven't felt the need to finish it

[Cruiser2B]

As for the Norvane, to my eye it doesn't appear as robustly built as the Cape Horn or as simple to install or operate.
The single hardest part of the Cape Horn installation is the last really deep breath you take right before you drill a really big hole in your transom.

As far as Norvane goes, I have been looking at one for my Alberg 30. It is recommended and sold by James Baldwin of Atomvoyages.com. He recommends this unit and has a quite a bit of bluewater small boat experience. I dont have any personal experience, but Kirk of sailingsalsa.com just completed a circumnavigation earlier this year on an Alberg 30 using one. He said if he had the money he'd of bought a Monitor but the Norvane held up well. I believe he did a review on his site @sailingngsalsa.com.
I do think that the Cape Horn is a good vane as well but I dont think there is anything wrong with durability or strength of the Norvane.

[rorik]

When I looked at the Norvane 3 -4 years ago, there was/is a geared piece that looked like it could have been better braced than it was/is.
I wasn't trying to disparage James or the Norvane.
I have a tendency to over build stuff ( which, one time - when the 52' fishing boat ran into my 26' sailboat while I was tied to the dock - saved my boat from being crushed and sinking) so when I look at stuff and say "that looks more robust than that" it's not necessarily meant disparagingly.
And if I didn't think James sold good stuff, I wouldn't have bought his Atom stove.
Some other things I really liked, and still like, about the Cape Horn is it doesn't look like I backed up to a plumbing shop, and it weighs less than anything other than sheet to tiller which keeps the levered weight at the end of the boat to a minimum.

[CharlieJ]

Just edited my previous post to correct the video link. Sorry bout that ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

[Cruiser2B]

Just edited my previous post to correct the video link. Sorry bout that ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NokZpCJIuBg

I have tried sheet to tiller and have only been successful a hand full of times. Winds on the bay here are kind of all over the place. I also need to work on sail trim. Sheet to tiller seems like the way to go if I could ever get it to work. Cheap and Simple!

[CharlieJ]

Yep- I haven't used it in a while, since I got the tiller pilot. But all the gear is always aboard.

Once the bugs are worked out, it's simple to use- just don't use bungee cord- surgical tubing is the ticket.

Longest stretch I used it was 2 1/2 days offshore, SW Pass Louisiana, to Freeport Texas. Worked beautifully

[s/v Faith]

As I read the OP, there is a wheel on this boat.

Sheet to tiller steering may not be an option for him, or is at least less practical to use (might be workable with an emergency tiller installed, but really.... Who is going to do that?)

[sailor]

I use it pretty-much continuously, under way. I'm always single-handing; the A/P keeps the boat on course while I do everything else.

So let's say 8 hours a day. and with 5A motor and 50% duty we get 3.5A (1A for controller). Roughly 28Ah a day. 386Wh @13.8V. If you assume 3hrs of equivalent sun a day and a decent charge controller, that gives about 130W of solar needed just for the autopilot (granted in normal conditions it would not have 50% duty and further south you go, 3hrs of equiv sun might become closer to 4).

Currently I've got 48 watts nominal, two 24-watt Sunwize Solcharger panels atop the hatch hood.

Wow these are expensive panels - I see them for more than $200. Too bad that we don't have more room.
Nowadays you can get big 250W panels for $200. Smaller panels are much more expensive on per Watt base.

I'm considering some more panels on the foredeck, between the cabin-house and the anchor-rode locker. I could fit a 50-watt Aurinco panel up there - the kind that can be stepped on without getting damaged - or even three 25-watt panels. They aren't cheap, but it's true that three 25-watt panels would cost less than 1/3 the price of the Cape Horn "Jean-du-Sud" windvane that'd fit my boat.

Wow - talk about sticker shock there - $850 for 50Watt panel

Would they keep up with the autopilot, though? That's the big question.

Probably not, if the duty cycle is really 50%.

[Godot]

I don't think my tiller pilot works at anything close to a 50% duty cycle most of the time. When I get everything set up right, I think it is probably closer to 10 or 20%. When conditions are lumpy the duty cycle does dramatically increase, though. I work hard at trying to keep the boat balanced, which keeps the force on the tiller light, which seems to greatly ease the amp draw. While certainly it sucks some electrons, it just doesn't seem that bad.

I have found that with a single small 20W panel and incidental use of the diesel engine the batteries stay fairly well charged, even while frequently using my laptop computer, chart plotter, VHF, and occasionally the stereo. Most lights have been converted to LED which really helps. On my old Seafarer 24, which had an outboard with only a trickle charger, I found I had power left over on the two group 27s after close to two weeks sailing while using the tiller pilot rather extensively, although I did watch the amps pretty carefully.

[Frank]

Don't want to hijack this thread...but if in search of panels...these guys are very hard to beat. typically a 100 watt panel will be about $125ish. Yep...they ship. I've done 2 cabins with them as well as boat panels. Inventory changes, so its best to call and ask for their best deal on whatever size your looking for.

http://sunelec.com/


we will now take you back to your regularly scheduled program    ;D

[s/v Faith]

Don't want to hijack this thread...but if in search of panels...these guys are very hard to beat. typically a 100 watt panel will be about $125ish. Yep...they ship. I've done 2 cabins with them as well as boat panels. Inventory changes, so its best to call and ask for their best deal on whatever size your looking for.

http://sunelec.com/


we will now take you back to your regularly scheduled program    ;D

Wow!  That is a great link!  Less then a buck a watt? 

[Rick Westlake]

Whew ... I've been away from this for a while.

Misfits posted a link to the Norvane rig; there's one on the Tartan 37 next to my slip. Unfortunately, the owner of this boat was crippled in a severe car accident and I've never seen it leave the slip, winter or summer, in 3 years ... no chance to ask him about it.  Conceptually, though, I prefer the Cape Horn; it's a cleaner-looking installation, outside, and the control lines & blocks mount directly on the Edson steering-quadrant mounted to the top of the rudder. (If something did happen to the wheel-to-rudder linkage, the Cape Horn would go on steering the boat.)

"Anyone gone from wheel to tiller?" Hal & Margaret Roth, on their second Whisper, a Wauquiez Pretorien 35. My emergency tiller is an awkward rig that sprouts out of the helm seat (and aft lazarette) ... and I'd have to leave the seat up and the hatch tied open to use it. (I should cut a hole and install a cover for it.) As I see it, the Monitor and Norvane look better-suited to a tiller-steered boat, for just that reason.

I've got Halcyon on the hard, now, till late March or early April. A little more time to think it out.