Hello One and all.
As you may have notices, I'm new here, please read my introduction in the introduction thread if you would like.
I freely admit all if my specifications are based on assumptions, based strictly on reading. so if i am mistaken, please let me know. ( i do know what they say about assuming) :D
I ask you to all bare with me on this, and correct me as need be. but if you do please explain why, as i like to learn why i am wrong. :)
I'm looking for these basic specification, from my perceived needs in a boat. there is some give and take on some of course, so feel free to chime in with other options.
1: Cheap, YES i said it, say a price range Max of $20,000, but cheaper is better for me. fixer-uppers welcome (i know, no boat is cheap, but some are lest costly than others)
2: 29'-32' LOA range (once passed 32' price seems to mount and maintenance cost increases as well, this size range can still be single handed as opposed to larger boats, and offers decent space of living and stowage for longer passages.
3: 10' beam or better. or at least fairly close to 10' the wider the beam it seems, the more stowage and space, and since this may be a live-aboard, more space is good. specifically for provisioning (am i right in this?) or are there some boats with narrower beams, but better interior layout that will work?
4: Fiberglass hull (i can work and repair fiberglass with a good degree of confidence)
5: Monohull (Catamarans seem much more expensive all across the board)
6: Blue water capable, including boats that need upgrading (most will i know)
7: 5' or less draft (boats with grounding holes are not good right? ???)
8: Tiller steering, less to break seems like. easier to mount with a wind-vain and auto pilot?
9: The ability to power with an outboard motor. (just seems like a lighter simpler solution to an inboard)
this is what Ive come up with so far can anyone add to this list.?
On to the boats.
These are the boats Ive looked at that meet these requirements so far, Ive looked at A'lot of good old boats lists as well. but any input on another boat is welcome, just give me some info as to why.?
1. Bayfield 29 (i know its real length is only about 27-28 feet without the bowsprit added, but the large head would be nice it seems.)
2. Westerly Konsort 29 (really like the looks of this boat, but twin bilge keel for blue water work? Not A'lot of info Ive found about that. Also not A'lot in America and is at my upper price range usually. but standing on its own keels and very shallow draft seems like it could be useful?)
3. Cal 30 Mk1 ( cant really find much about the original Cal-30 to complain about what am i missing.?)
I know Ive missed A'lot of very good boats here mainly due to the 10' Beam spec., so don't get angry, but its hard for me to figure if a Bayfield 29 with a 10'2" beam will have more or less space inside than a Pearson Vanguard 32 with a 9'3" beam, so like I've said any and all info welcome as long as you tell me why :)
Thank you all for your time and patience
Cyric30
Welcome aboard.
Just happens to be an ongoing thread on this EXACT subject
Here's a link to the beginnings- now running three pages.
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4186.0.html
Be a good place to start ;)
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 12, 2014, 03:53:46 PM
Welcome aboard.
Just happens to be an ongoing thread on this EXACT subject
Here's a link to the beginnings- now running three pages.
http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,4186.0.html
Be a good place to start ;)
Hay Charles
thanks for the reply.
ive read this thread, and decided to start this one looking for more specifics if possible :)
I have a Bayfield 29, and can't speak to the others.
I haven't heard of any B29s with outboards. I like the diesel. It's easy enough to work on, sips fuels, and powers the boat adequately. The freeboard is high enough that I think a transom mounted outboard would be rather inconvenient. If the included motor is in good shape, if I were you I'd just plan on taking whatever came with the boat.
Most B29s have wheels. I can't figure out why, and think standing behind the wheel would be uncomfortable as the traveler is on the taffrail. Mine has a tiller which works quite well, although if there are a bunch of folk in the cockpit it does sort of get in the way while underway.
The forward head really is wonderful. I found the door to be somewhat intrusive, so I removed it and went with a curtain. Works quite well, although when used in bumpy weather its' far forward position makes it uncomfortable (keep a bottle in the cockpit, just in case). I've also went to a composting head which I really like.
I'm not a huge fan of v-berths, and haven't really missed it. I set up the starboard expanding berth as a more or less permanent double.
The seat backs on the cabin settees are not the most comfortable, and shorten the seats enough to annoy me. I've removed them for the time being (transforming the settees into bunk mode), and find it much more comfortable in general; but I occasionally miss having something to lean back against. I'm still working on the solution.
The boat is wonderful to sail with a decent breeze. A little sluggish when the wind is light; but I still manage to do ok. I think it would make a wonderful liveaboard for a single guy (which was my plan until I hooked up with the new woman...I still spend a lot of nights aboard).
Less than four feet of draft. Well outfit B29s have crossed oceans.
Quote from: Godot on March 12, 2014, 09:47:33 PM
I have a Bayfield 29, and can't speak to the others.
I haven't heard of any B29s with outboards. I like the diesel. It's easy enough to work on, sips fuels, and powers the boat adequately. The freeboard is high enough that I think a transom mounted outboard would be rather inconvenient. If the included motor is in good shape, if I were you I'd just plan on taking whatever came with the boat.
Most B29s have wheels. I can't figure out why, and think standing behind the wheel would be uncomfortable as the traveler is on the taffrail. Mine has a tiller which works quite well, although if there are a bunch of folk in the cockpit it does sort of get in the way while underway.
The forward head really is wonderful. I found the door to be somewhat intrusive, so I removed it and went with a curtain. Works quite well, although when used in bumpy weather its' far forward position makes it uncomfortable (keep a bottle in the cockpit, just in case). I've also went to a composting head which I really like.
I'm not a huge fan of v-berths, and haven't really missed it. I set up the starboard expanding berth as a more or less permanent double.
The seat backs on the cabin settees are not the most comfortable, and shorten the seats enough to annoy me. I've removed them for the time being (transforming the settees into bunk mode), and find it much more comfortable in general; but I occasionally miss having something to lean back against. I'm still working on the solution.
The boat is wonderful to sail with a decent breeze. A little sluggish when the wind is light; but I still manage to do ok. I think it would make a wonderful liveaboard for a single guy (which was my plan until I hooked up with the new woman...I still spend a lot of nights aboard).
Less than four feet of draft. Well outfit B29s have crossed oceans.
Hello Godot
Thank you for the reply and information on your Bayfield
I doubt very much I'll find a boat that is all the things I'm wishing for, all boats are a compromise Ive read.
A few reasons for my wish of an outboard are, the freeing up of the engine areas weight for the possibility of adding a battery bank for solar and wind power, or at least more stowage.
And while i have worked on diesels quite a bit in my life, I'm better with 4 stroke engines and i would think that they would be much easier to maintain and work on in many far flung places of the world?
Can you speak on the diesels fuel use vs. say the common 9.9 outboard any.?
also would a long shaft outboard be any easier a mount solution to the transom?
I can see your point about a tiller with a cockpit full of ppl, but wouldn't you have the same trouble with a wheel as well? i guess it depend on how and where its mounted.
How do you like the composting head? Its something i have looked into for where I'm at now, and seems a much better solution on a boat, with being able to do away with the complex toletry systems most boats use (compared to a composter i mean)
I would end up cramming a V-berth full of stuff instead of sleeping in one anyway as i tend to not to need much room to sleep.....but as you say you never know who might come along in life.
Can you give me a bit of idea how much room you have? and stowage area? and how it compares to any other boat you have been on? I'm not in a position to exactly go boat hoping to find out :(
Ive also have heard of B29s doing ocean crossings, whats some stuff you would outfit on your boat if you where going to do one? anything specifice to the B29?
i know lost of questions but i thank you for the time you have given me thus far and hope to continue the conversation some more.
Regards
Cyric30
This will be a big argument starter (maybe) but I've had a wheel boat. I don't want another- give me a tiller every time. The tiller can be tilted up to clear the cockpit, when anchored- the wheel is ALWAYS there.
But- that's simply personal preference :D
And I used to crew on a 50 foot (on deck) schooner with a tiller- 9 feet long, so boat size doesn't change much.
My 32 Endeavour has a wheel that we remove when anchored but would rather have a tiller, so no arguments here Charlie.
Its hard to get comfortable after hours at the wheel where it is easy and much more comfortable to lie across the cockpit.
When sailing the tiller extends most of the way into the cockpit. When maneuvering, other people can get in the way of the tiller. Also, the way the b29 cockpit is layed out, it takes a bit of figuring to find the best way to handle the sheets. That said, I've done well with three people in the cockpit while sailing. When not sailing the tiller does tip out and open up the cockpit. Perhaps the best choice is one of those wheels that mounts at the back of the cockpit where you actually steer from in front of the wheel. But those are rare (I had one on my tiny Weekender sailboat many years ago, which was useful in such a tight space). You can see the wheel a bit in the photo below...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bNWqgxQVZw0/UyGnL_Zc3bI/AAAAAAAAD3w/rxmegmeiZVg/w723-h522-no/svFandango034.jpg)
Regards fuel consumption, I'm averaging somewhere under half a gallon an hour on the diesel. I haven't done the math; but I recently installed an hour meter and know I have a full tank right now, so when I next fill up (probably well into summer, probably during my month long July cruise to New England) I should be able to tell you how much I'm burning. In any case, it is significantly less than my two stroke 9.9 Johnson I had on (smaller, lighter) Godot. I'm not sure how a four stroke outboard would compare.
I've had the composting head for a year or so. So far, I really like it. No smell, little muss, and more pleasant to deal with than frequent pump outs. It is a bit taller than a regular toilet, though, and needs some extra room to swing the mixing arm, so whatever boat you end up with you will need to do some careful measuring before converting.
Stowage seems generous compared to other similar sized boats. Under settees, in big area behind the stove, in cabinets above the settees, etc...; but will fill up quick. It is still a pretty small boat. I'm not sure you can do much better in the size range without sacrificing 1/4 berths or something, although if you are willing to do that you will be able to hold several totes worth of extra stuff.
Water and fuel tankage are both 20 gallons. I figure 20 gallons of diesel is roughly equal to 200 miles (I think more, really; but I like to be conservative). 20 gallons of water might be a little sparce on a long cruise. I'm planning on installing a new water tank where the old holding tank used to be. I'm having trouble finding a tank the right size and shape, though. Even the bladders I've found aren't dimensioned in the most efficient manner; although that is the way I'll likely end up going.
The only thing I would really want for long distance cruising is a wind vane. The tiller pilot works quite well, though, so I think I'll make the not insignificant investment in a vane if it gets to the point where I expect to spend weeks at sea. A second tiller pilot as a spare might be worth consideration in the meantime if I'm going to be away from civilization for awhile. I also wish there was a convenient place to install another battery or two. Eventually a few more solar panels will be installed, as well.
This is one boat. Do a search and you should find a thread I started on it. I like the Bayfield a whole lot; but there are lots of other boats I would have been just as happy with. Keep an open mind.
At some point during Carita's mystery refit in her past, someone paid a significant sum to install a wheel. For the life of me I can't understand why and I certainly wouldn't have chosen it, but it's what I have so it is what it is.
On the plus side it's incredibly responsive, and the U-shaped seating does suit it well, enabling a variety of comfortable helm positions. With my outboard throttle mounted in the cockpit it also helps me feel much more "in control" when docking at my slip and threading through our popular anchorage.
She also has an easily-mounted backup tiller which I have yet to use, although now that I've learned about sheet-to-tiller steering I'm going to have to give that a trial in the upcoming season.
I suspect wheels became popular as part of an advertising push many years ago.
Once upon a time the most common question you'd get about a boat was "how many does she sleep." The idea being to cram a big boat, TARDIS like, into a small boat. I think the wheel became a symbol of Yachting as opposed to Boating.
There is also the issue that most people are familiar with how to drive a car, and therefor are comfortable with a wheel. A tiller seems mysterious and scary.
I could be wrong.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 13, 2014, 01:05:31 AM
This will be a big argument starter (maybe) but I've had a wheel boat. I don't want another- give me a tiller every time.
But- that's simply personal preference :D
I'm with you on this Charlie!
Wheels are just nature's way of telling us that our boat is too big! ;)
Godot....what a pretty lil boat !! Tons of character! What was it? Wood or glass?
It's a Stevenson Weekender, a little plywood gaffer. I built it back in 98 or 99 I think over about six or seven months of very part time work. A fun project and a fun boat. I used to take that thing sailing all over Narragansett Bay, Lake George, and various other places. It was small enough to trailer behind an old Toyota Corolla (although launching was never easy as the car was simply too low). I spent as long as a week on-board, never touching land. Given the size of the interior, not much bigger than a two person tent, this was an interesting challenge in minimalism. I miss that boat.
Hay all
OK, OK, I'm not ready to be the instigator of the war of the tiller & wheel OK :)
Gogot is this boats wheel like what yours was? or is this completely diffrent.? its an intresting way of doing it i had never seen, but seems like it auto pilot might not work well?
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/41399#
B/W like the Seawind good reputation and seems like good stowage capacity as well.
Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.
the stowage is the one of the main issues with me as if /when i do something like this it will most likely be for a good bit and would like to bring alot of supplies with me in the beginning, another reason i wanted to remove the inboard, but i do see your point if it ain't broke don't fix it, if the motors and components are sound why mess with it. unless its a gas inboard, then I'll always worry about it as i have seen several old carburetter cars burn to the ground.
thanks for the info in the composting head, it seems to eliminate alot of potential problems on a boat, and it seems that the toilet being a bit to high is a fairly c common thing from my research at least, and definitely add more water storage would be one the top of the list for me at least.
and any area where someones not sleeping or setting is prime to become stowage area unless it becomes a safety concern that is :)
batteries and Solar and hopefully wind are a must in my thinking along with low power consumption items
i believe i looked at your Bayfield thread as well before posting there lotsa good info there as well so thanks for that
and an open mind is something i believe i have on this subject, so many choices to look through :)
Quote from: Godot on March 13, 2014, 09:13:57 AM
When sailing the tiller extends most of the way into the cockpit. When maneuvering, other people can get in the way of the tiller. Also, the way the b29 cockpit is laid out, it takes a bit of figuring to find the best way to handle the sheets. That said, I've done well with three people in the cockpit while sailing. When not sailing the tiller does tip out and open up the cockpit. Perhaps the best choice is one of those wheels that mounts at the back of the cockpit where you actually steer from in front of the wheel. But those are rare (I had one on my tiny Weekender sailboat many years ago, which was useful in such a tight space). You can see the wheel a bit in the photo below...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bNWqgxQVZw0/UyGnL_Zc3bI/AAAAAAAAD3w/rxmegmeiZVg/w723-h522-no/svFandango034.jpg)
Regards fuel consumption, I'm averaging somewhere under half a gallon an hour on the diesel. I haven't done the math; but I recently installed an hour meter and know I have a full tank right now, so when I next fill up (probably well into summer, probably during my month long July cruise to New England) I should be able to tell you how much I'm burning. In any case, it is significantly less than my two stroke 9.9 Johnson I had on (smaller, lighter) Godot. I'm not sure how a four stroke outboard would compare.
I've had the composting head for a year or so. So far, I really like it. No smell, little muss, and more pleasant to deal with than frequent pump outs. It is a bit taller than a regular toilet, though, and needs some extra room to swing the mixing arm, so whatever boat you end up with you will need to do some careful measuring before converting.
Stowage seems generous compared to other similar sized boats. Under settees, in big area behind the stove, in cabinets above the settees, etc...; but will fill up quick. It is still a pretty small boat. I'm not sure you can do much better in the size range without sacrificing 1/4 berths or something, although if you are willing to do that you will be able to hold several totes worth of extra stuff.
Water and fuel tankage are both 20 gallons. I figure 20 gallons of diesel is roughly equal to 200 miles (I think more, really; but I like to be conservative). 20 gallons of water might be a little sparse on a long cruise. I'm planning on installing a new water tank where the old holding tank used to be. I'm having trouble finding a tank the right size and shape, though. Even the bladders I've found aren't dimensioned in the most efficient manner; although that is the way I'll likely end up going.
The only thing I would really want for long distance cruising is a wind vane. The tiller pilot works quite well, though, so I think I'll make the not insignificant investment in a vane if it gets to the point where I expect to spend weeks at sea. A second tiller pilot as a spare might be worth consideration in the meantime if I'm going to be away from civilization for awhile. I also wish there was a convenient place to install another battery or two. Eventually a few more solar panels will be installed, as well.
This is one boat. Do a search and you should find a thread I started on it. I like the Bayfield a whole lot; but there are lots of other boats I would have been just as happy with. Keep an open mind.
The Seawind is a sweet boat. Yup, that's the kind of wheel I was referring to. Best of both worlds. Except sheet to tiller steering wouldn't be terribly practical, of course.
It looks like a nice boat, but as with so many thing in life, it might look good, but be bad when you get to looking close
Quote from: Cyric30 on March 13, 2014, 07:26:42 PM
H
Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.
I can give you some real time insight on that. First trip across to Florida aboard Tehani we had a 9.9 hp 2 stroke. On a 3 gallon tank, running at about 5 knots, we'd get 2 hours, 45 minutes on a tank.
Half way back we crapped the engine and bought a new Yamaha 8 hp 4 stroke which I've run ever since. Again, running at roughly 5 knots, we'd run 7 1/2 hours on that same 3 gallon tank!!!
PLUS, you can carry on a normal conversation in the cockpit, be cause it is WORLDS quieter.
I've got maybe 7500 miles behind me with that engine now, and day in and day out, in flat water ( no wind, no current) it delivers roughly 15 MPG.
Loaded for cruise, Tehani displaces roughly 7800 pounds.
I now have two 6 gallon tanks normally filled to five gallons, and carry a pair of 2 gallon jugs as spare fuel. I can usually run about 175-185 miles with that fuel load.
No way on earth I'd revert back to a 2 stroke as my main engine. For a small dinghy engine, fine, not on the big boat
Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isent really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 13, 2014, 09:38:15 PM
Quote from: Cyric30 on March 13, 2014, 07:26:42 PM
H
Gogot I'm not sure as to how a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke of equal size might differ in fuel economy, but would be an intresting topic to research some time.
I can give you some real time insight on that. First trip across to Florida aboard Tehani we had a 9.9 hp 2 stroke. On a 3 gallon tank, running at about 5 knots, we'd get 2 hours, 45 minutes on a tank.
Half way back we crapped the engine and bought a new Yamaha 8 hp 4 stroke which I've run ever since. Again, running at roughly 5 knots, we'd run 7 1/2 hours on that same 3 gallon tank!!!
PLUS, you can carry on a normal conversation in the cockpit, be cause it is WORLDS quieter.
I've got maybe 7500 miles behind me with that engine now, and day in and day out, in flat water ( no wind, no current) it delivers roughly 15 MPG.
Loaded for cruise, Tehani displaces roughly 7800 pounds.
I now have two 6 gallon tanks normally filled to five gallons, and carry a pair of 2 gallon jugs as spare fuel. I can usually run about 175-185 miles with that fuel load.
No way on earth I'd revert back to a 2 stroke as my main engine. For a small dinghy engine, fine, not on the big boat
Quote from: Cyric30 on March 14, 2014, 01:46:41 AM
Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isent really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?
Tehani is a Seafarer Meridian 25, designed by Phillip Rhodes and built in Holland in 1961. Hull # 10 of ?? LOL is 24'10, beam 7' draft 3'6", air draft 34 feet, dry disp 5300, loaded for cruise, I figure 7800
Here's a link to pictures in one of my albums in the Members Galleries " section here on SailFar-
http://sailfar.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=20
As to the fuel, there are a a pair of 6 gallon tanks, mounted each side of the engine in the lazerette. The pair of 2 gallon jugs wedge each side of the compass box in the very forward end of the cockpit, Not in the way and never move.
1st picture is looking down into the engine compartment in the lazerette taken when the tanks were the old 3 gallon ones.
Second pic is the opening in the bulkhead for the engine tiller access. Engine is always in the water. Can't be tilted up. Twist grip on handle has since been shortened so it doesn't interfere with the locker latch. Engine doesn't swivel at all. The valve you can see just above the inclinometer is for switching fuel tanks. They are permanently plumped through a filter and that valve, so hoses don't have to be changed.
Hay Charlie
Thank you for the info, and those first 2 pics are wicked scary man, i consider myself fairly handy, but i don't think i would have bitten off that job, so my hat is off to you man. :) and the results of your work are awesome. ;D
I have seen several articles about older boats being retrofitted with Lazerette outboards, but not alot of info on what makes them a good candidate for the refit any info.? although i see the Meridians came with them as a factory option, a shame the outboard doesn't tiller up or turn, i imagine the outboard turning would be extremely handy with turning the full keel?
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 14, 2014, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Cyric30 on March 14, 2014, 01:46:41 AM
Charles
Thank you for the insight on the 2vs.4 stroke outboard, may i ask what kind of boat Tehani is.? or a link possibly.? and say 15 Gal. of gas isn't really a whole lot as things go, how do you have yours mounted.?
Tehani is a Seafarer Meridian 25, designed by Phillip Rhodes and built in Holland in 1961. Hull # 10 of ?? LOL is 24'10, beam 7' draft 3'6", air draft 34 feet, dry disp 5300, loaded for cruise, I figure 7800
Here's a link to pictures in one of my albums in the Members Galleries " section here on SailFar-
http://sailfar.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=20
As to the fuel, there are a a pair of 6 gallon tanks, mounted each side of the engine in the lazerette. The pair of 2 gallon jugs wedge each side of the compass box in the very forward end of the cockpit, Not in the way and never move.
1st picture is looking down into the engine compartment in the lazerette taken when the tanks were the old 3 gallon ones.
Second pic is the opening in the bulkhead for the engine tiller access. Engine is always in the water. Can't be tilted up. Twist grip on handle has since been shortened so it doesn't interfere with the locker latch. Engine doesn't swivel at all. The valve you can see just above the inclinometer is for switching fuel tanks. They are permanently plumped through a filter and that valve, so hoses don't have to be changed.
Only a problem when backing up- She does not like to back to starboard. No real difference between that and an inboard boat though. You get used to that and plan for it. If needed, spring lines are your friend :D
Biggest problem is there is zero antifouling for aluminum outboards that actually works, since TBT was banned. You just get used to the fact that you scrub the lower unit every few weeks, from the dinghy. Can't used copper based due to electrolysis.
Other wise, no biggie. And I like it FAR better than an outboard on the transom. The Yamaha has the shifter right there on the tiller handle, so operates much like an inboard.
Used a 9.9HP Yamaha 4-stroke for about 12 years as the main propulsion on our 32-foot catamaran including several trips up and down the East Coast ICW. Very reliable and relatively fuel efficient. There are two problems with 4-strokes that you need to address. First, a full-size fuel filter system (not just an inline cheapy) filter will save you lots of hassles. The low-speed jet is tiny in these things and the weensiest piece of crud will plug it, making your engine hard or impossible to start and run at slow speeds. Learn to take off the carb, clean it, and put it back on the engine quickly. I had it down to less than 10 minutes and I kept the tools close to the engine so that I could do it underway if needed. Second, like all outboards they are very prone to corrosion and fairly quickly the entire lower unit will fuse solidly together. I learned the hard way that sometimes the only way to disassemble them once in this state was lots of heat and some serious pounding. When I put it back together I put goopy gasket compound in each joint in order to provide some protection and it did help.
In some areas you wouldn't be able to operate your motor if left in the water for a couple of weeks due to fouling. In SC where I lived for several years you either had your boat professionally scraped by a diver once a month, even with antifouling paint, or you couldn't move. I wouldn't really consider an outboard unless it could be completely pulled out of the water when not in use.
Hay Charlie
Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still :)
from my reading its a pain in the rear backing these type boats up, but as with everything practice makes the task easier to accomplish :)
this whole electrolysis thing still mystifies me somewhat, but i can see aluminum eroding quite easy as i have acid etched a few pieces for fun in the past.
Kettlewell welcome to the discussion :)
Could you elaborate on the fuel filter system a bit.? are you talking roughly the same type system that diesels use?
its my personal belief you should be able to work on your own equipment if its relatively straight forward stuff at least. I'm not going to try to tear down a new car motor and put it back together, but these things don't seem that complicated.
thanks for the info on the joint goop will remember that, and from what you and Charles both say, leaving the outboard in the water is best avoided if possible, seen a refit on the Atom site of a Lazerette mounted outboard that would both, pull up, store int the Laz and could be turned while in use, seems like alot of work but the reward would also be good as well.
i find it strange that will all the modern compounds and paint and such that there hasn't been something made that's a better antifouling agent that whats out there, just seems strange to me i guess.
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 14, 2014, 03:49:37 PM
Used a 9.9HP Yamaha 4-stroke for about 12 years as the main propulsion on our 32-foot catamaran including several trips up and down the East Coast ICW. Very reliable and relatively fuel efficient. There are two problems with 4-strokes that you need to address. First, a full-size fuel filter system (not just an in-line cheapy) filter will save you lots of hassles. The low-speed jet is tiny in these things and the weensiest piece of crud will plug it, making your engine hard or impossible to start and run at slow speeds. Learn to take off the carb, clean it, and put it back on the engine quickly. I had it down to less than 10 minutes and I kept the tools close to the engine so that I could do it underway if needed. Second, like all outboards they are very prone to corrosion and fairly quickly the entire lower unit will fuse solidly together. I learned the hard way that sometimes the only way to disassemble them once in this state was lots of heat and some serious pounding. When I put it back together I put goopy gasket compound in each joint in order to provide some protection and it did help.
In some areas you wouldn't be able to operate your motor if left in the water for a couple of weeks due to fouling. In SC where I lived for several years you either had your boat professionally scraped by a diver once a month, even with antifouling paint, or you couldn't move. I wouldn't really consider an outboard unless it could be completely pulled out of the water when not in use.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 14, 2014, 01:00:07 PM
Only a problem when backing up- She does not like to back to starboard. No real difference between that and an inboard boat though. You get used to that and plan for it. If needed, spring lines are your friend :D
Biggest problem is there is zero antifouling for aluminum outboards that actually works, since TBT was banned. You just get used to the fact that you scrub the lower unit every few weeks, from the dinghy. Can't used copper based due to electrolysis.
Other wise, no biggie. And I like it FAR better than an outboard on the transom. The Yamaha has the shifter right there on the tiller handle, so operates much like an inboard.
I used a full-sized Mercury spin on fuel filter--looks about like a typical oil filter on a car. You just spin off and on the fuel filters and replace every 100 hours or so--does wonders for keeping water and crud out of your motor.
"Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still "
TBT is Tri Butyl Tin. Was a very good anti fouling paint, but in large concentrations, killed surrounding marine life. Places with little exchange of water and hundreds of boats. So it was totally banned, instead of being limited to things like out drives and lower units. The normal sledge hammer approach.
Can't argue against the ban as a bottom paint, but the other is a little silly. Very small concentrations didn't cause trouble.
Electrolysis is the reason most outboards have a zinc attached, and in my Yamaha, two zincs- one inside the engine, and one under the anti-ventilation plate
James Baldwin happened to be working on that engine lift system when I chanced to spend a day with him some years ago. Problem was it had to come up over the lazerette top, and also in one iteration, had a slot cut in the transom for the leg to tilt into. I refused to destroy the transom looks for a blasted outboard. I'd rather maintain the outboard more often. Besides, Tehani doesn't have room. Takes a wrench, two folks, and about 30 minutes to get the engine out, but I've installed lifting rings so I can do it alone using the main sheet- Going to make maintenance much easier
In this pic the engine is hanging in my shop from that lifting bridle
For periods of time when I won't be using the boat for a while, I have a rubberized canvas flushing bag that pulls up over the lower unit, and fills with fresh water. Not in use right now- water is way too cold to need it
On the subject of engines--they are a critical factor in choosing a boat. You will find very few boats above 30 feet with an outboard, and not too many cruising boats above 25 feet with one. One of the reasons is that long term use highly favors a diesel inboard for both fuel economy and longevity. My current boat engine is approaching 5000 hours of use and it runs like new except for a small water pump problem. But, I can relatively easily replace the very robust water pump and probably get another 5000 hours out of the next one. My main point being is that when looking at sail boats it is easy to overlook the engine, which is a critical component and often can make a cruise miserable if not working well. Things to look for include: brand and history, maintenance, any rebuilds along the way, installation (can you get at it for work), parts availability, etc.
Couple thoughts:
The old "tempo" spray on paint with TBT was the best. I still have a couple cans of it I bought right after it was taken off of the market.
I love the Yamaha 8 / 9.9hp four stroke, and the big Honda is nice too. What I don't like about them are their size and weight.
My route has been slightly different then Charlie's. I had the Yamaha 6hp (same as the 8) 2 stroke. Like the 4 stroke, it has 2 cylinders so it runs smooth and quiet... Has a more pleasant sound then a single.
I had a similar burn rate, normally between 1/2 and 3/4 gallons per hour. It was a great motor, I just ran it into the ground.
My next motor was the Tohatsu 6hp 4 stroke. As a single cyl, it was lighter then the 2cyl 8hp.... But it vibrates like crazy! I bought it brand new (it is the exact same motor as the Nissan and Mercury) and it was neither as smooth or powerful as my old yamaha 6.
After using the Tohatsu off and on for a few months, I pickled it and put it in my shop where it sits today. Worst $1,500 I spent was going from 2 stroke to 4 stroke.
I would have gone with the same motor Charlie has, but frankly the modifications to the outboard well would have been extensive but more significantly it was twice as heavy as the 2 stroke. Most small boats do not react well to weight in the stern... I trust Charlie does not have much of a problem with this, but notice many similar sized boats with large outboards who "squat by the stern" and don't float on their lines.
2 stroke motors do use more fuel, but they certainly have not lost popularity. Go to the dingy dock cruising in the Bahamas, and you will see lots of them out there... With good reason. They are lighter, more simple, and more dependable. The Yamaha 8/9.9 four stroke is a wonderful motor, but it does have its drawbacks.
I shopped around and found another used Yamaha 6hp, and if I have to replace that I will just sail to the Bahamas to buy another 2 stroke.
I also can "pivot" my outboard in the well, which makes docking much much easier....
The Yamaha 6 hp, 4 stroke is no longer a two cylinder- it's a single now. It was the exact engine other than carb when I bought the 8. But there weren't any available all over Louisiana, we had a crapped out engine 400 miles from home, and HAD to do something. I chose the Yahama over an 8 hp Tohatsu because the shifter was on the tiller, instead of the side of the engine. NEVER been sorry. I've had engine troubles exactly twice in the years (and MANY hours) of use, and both times were due to water in the fuel. I now ALWAYS run Sta-Bil in the tanks, AND SeaFoam. Since adding SeaFoam regularly, zero problems.
As for the weight, yes, it adds a good bit back there- I just keep the bow water tank full, using from the big tank under the cockpit. Plus my 100 feet of chain is up there in the bow, so that offsets. Do I wish it was lighter? certainly- I wish it weighed 20 pounds :D
I bought a Yamaha 4 hp 4 stroke for Necessity-single cyl, runs nice but vibrates. Not NEARLY as smooth as the 2 cyl engines. But that 4 hp engine weighed exactly 6 pounds more than the 6 hp 2 stroke Johnson I took off the boat.
Totally agree on the 2 strokes for dinghies, but new ones just aren't around, and the older ones are getting tired. Wish it weren't so
One other thing- I started paying attention to what was hanging on the back of boats when I was in the Keys, before heading to the Bahamas, while I was in the Bahamas, and all up the east coast. Yamaha is sure doing SOMETHING right because they OWN the market. I saw 4 or 5 Yamahas for every one or two other brands. Mercury's were next, which is strange because they are a rebranded Nissan/Tohatsu.
Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.
Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6 / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.
I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring. They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare! :)
They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro. The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.
I hope this doesn't start a big fight, but I highly recommend using full synthetic motor oil in any 4-stroke outboard despite whatever oil is recommended by the manufacturer. It is readily available now at any WalMart. It definitely extends the life of the engine significantly, in my experience.
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 15, 2014, 10:57:21 AM
Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.
Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6 / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.
I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring. They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare! :)
They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro. The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.
Neat- I'd like a 2, 2.5, or 3 HP 2 stroke please ;D I had the 2.5 Merc on the inflatable dinghy, but both are now elsewhere
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 15, 2014, 10:57:21 AM
Absolutely agree, Yamaha has a great product.
Fwiw, the 6hp 4 stroke changed, but the 2stroke i was talking about but has always been 2 cly (in the 6 / 8hp model i favor.). They are not available new in the US, but the rest of the world still sells them.
I bought a 4hp single cly 2 stroke at Abaco Yacht Services in Black Sound at Green Turtle last spring. They had shiney new 8hp 2 cly 2 strokes sitting on the floor... I almost picked one up just to have a spare! :)
They sell both the standard model (the same one that used to be sold in the US) and the enduro. The enduro is slightly lighter, and cheaper.
I just resurrected an Evinrude 8hp 2cycle 2cyl for the Ariel, weighs the same as my Honda 5. Two strokers are terrible on gas mileage, but since it is JUST auxiliary, I can deal with it.
I bought a brand new 2-stroke 8HP Johnson back in 2005 after they had been discontinued in the US--I think it was the last one Defender had. One of the best boat purchases I've ever made. That motor has been the most reliable dink motor ever. I think the only thing I've done to it since then is replace the spark plugs--once--and only then because I thought after 5 years I should do something for the motor! I use the blue StaBil in every tank of gas and I've never had a fuel-related problem. Strangely, it seems to have gotten more powerful with age. When new I could just barely get up onto plane with two people onboard, but now it does it with no problem.
But, I would go with 4-stroke for long-term main boat propulsion, and 2-stroke for dink use if you can find a good one. Here in the USA the place to look is inland freshwater places with a short season, like around here in upstate NY. You see a lot of barely used older motors that have pushed around a jon boat for the annual fishing trip on some pond. Find one of those and they make a great dink motor.
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 15, 2014, 08:55:13 AM
On the subject of engine's are a critical factor in choosing a boat. You will find very few boats above 30 feet with an outboard, and not too many cruising boats above 25 feet with one. One of the reasons is that long term use highly favors a diesel inboard for both fuel economy and longevity. My current boat engine is approaching 5000 hours of use and it runs like new except for a small water pump problem. But, I can relatively easily replace the very robust water pump and probably get another 5000 hours out of the next one. My main point being is that when looking at sail boats it is easy to overlook the engine, which is a critical component and often can make a cruise miserable if not working well. Things to look for include: brand and history, maintenance, any rebuilds along the way, installation (can you get at it for work), parts availability, etc.
Kettlewell, while i know little about boat inboards, Ive had quite a bit of experience with old diesels on tractors 1000's of hours on them and tinkering with over my life and i whole hardily agree with the "robustness" of them, some are better than others mind you, but some are just bullet proof for sure. I'm not going to take a boat with a perfectly good inboard and throw it out, but if i find one with a bad engine or a gas engine, i would replace it, and an outboard seems the best/easiest (for some boats) option. i read that the universal engines are re-branded Kubota's like they use on many tractors, which seems like would be a good one, and while i don't know much about them, Ive helped a friend with a Yanmar engine on a small tractor and it was a very simple setup, and since there Chinese, if you where cruising the pacific parts might be easier/quicker to get, but who knows.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 14, 2014, 10:06:50 PM
"Could you elaborate on what TBT is.? in new to all this lingo still "
TBT is Tri Butyl Tin. Was a very good anti fouling paint, but in large concentrations, killed surrounding marine life. Places with little exchange of water and hundreds of boats. So it was totally banned, instead of being limited to things like out drives and lower units. The normal sledge hammer approach.
Can't argue against the ban as a bottom paint, but the other is a little silly. Very small concentrations didn't cause trouble.
Electrolysis is the reason most outboards have a zinc attached, and in my Yamaha, two zincs- one inside the engine, and one under the plate
James Baldwin happened to be working on that engine lift system when I chanced to spend a day with him some years ago. Problem was it had to come up over the lazerette top, and also in one iteration, had a slot cut in the transom for the leg to tilt into. I refused to destroy the transom looks for a blasted outboard. I'd rather maintain the outboard more often. Besides, Tehani doesn't have room. Takes a wrench, two folks, and about 30 minutes to get the engine out, but I've installed lifting rings so I can do it alone using the main sheet- Going to make maintenance much easier
In this pic the engine is hanging in my shop from that lifting bridle
For periods of time when I won't be using the boat for a while, I have a rubberized canvas flushing bag that pulls up over the lower unit, and fills with fresh water. Not in use right now- water is way too cold to need it
Charlie
Thanks for the info on TBT
talking with Mr. Baldwin fore some time would be awesome, seems like an man with a mountain of useful information, and I'm sure and equal amount of awesome stories.
The Lazerrete conversion he did was inticate, but i don't think they all would have to be like that one.
Do you worry about the bridle point breaking your housing.?
Very neet idea about the rubberized bag, simple solution to problems, got to love it, although i assume theres a way to displace any sea water with fresh???
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 15, 2014, 12:49:34 PM
But, I would go with 4-stroke for long-term main boat propulsion, and 2-stroke for dink use if you can find a good one. Here in the USA the place to look is inland freshwater places with a short season, like around here in upstate NY. You see a lot of barely used older motors that have pushed around a jon boat for the annual fishing trip on some pond. Find one of those and they make a great dink motor.
On the subject of freshwater outboard, you can usually always pick up a few around here out of the local papers that aren't running, but the problem is that, no one around here can really work on them, we have lots small engine ppl, but most aren't familiar with outboard enough to do a competent job, wonder if there might Be a market for buying them up and bringing a load to the coast?, guess it depends on they type.
"Do you worry about the bridle point breaking your housing.? "
Not at all. The load is spread over 3 points and each of the rear ones has two bolts, thru the lower part of the housing- it's almost 1/4 thick right there. Front line ties around the forward handle.Engine weighs 86 pounds, so roughly 30 pounds load per point. In the pic I posted earlier, it's hanging in the shop from a chainfall while I worked on finalizing the repainting.
And yes, the flushing bag has a hose attachment so it can be filled with fresh water. Here's a link to the one I have. You can run the engine in the bag.
http://www.burgees.com/flushingbag/Model_MB1.htm
Hay Charlie
sounds like the outboards housing is both thicker and tougher than i would have thought, score 1 for a quality product :), flush bag i a interesting solution, necessity is the mother off invention as the quote goes :)
I bought one of those lifting slings for outboards made from black nylon webbing. It straps tightly around the motor and has a nice padded handle on the top. I routinely hoist my motor on and off the dink with it, using a block and tackle from the end of my mizzen boom. It also makes the motor easier to manhandle around when just lifting it. Still, I wouldn't consider using an outboard for main propulsion unless it could be fully lifted/tilted out of the water for sailing and while at anchor.
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 18, 2014, 09:17:01 AM
I bought one of those lifting slings for outboards made from black nylon webbing. It straps tightly around the motor and has a nice padded handle on the top. I routinely hoist my motor on and off the dink with it, using a block and tackle from the end of my mizzen boom. It also makes the motor easier to manhandle around when just lifting it. Still, I wouldn't consider using an outboard for main propulsion unless it could be fully lifted/tilted out of the water for sailing and while at anchor.
I used to have one of those slings- worked well, but I think for me, my set up will be far better. The engine sits below foot level in the laz, so is very difficult to hoist. Plus the tiller handle must be unbolted and fed through as it's being lifted. Really a two person job without the slings.
On the not being able to tilt, the boat doesn't give much choice sometimes- you go with what you have. Much better than giving up tons of room for an inboard. For me anyway. And I've put some 10,000 miles behind her so far.
Different ships, different long splices ;)
If you have a boat that sails really well I'd suggest going with the smallest outboard you think will do the trick, not the largest. The savings in weight and on your back would be enormous, and the performance loss only noticed in rough conditions. Our main outboard pooped out on the 32-foot cat once and we put the 2.5 hp dinghy motor on the bracket and proceeded for 40-50 miles in a dead calm. I was surprised to see we could make about 3.5 knots, which wasn't too bad considering a 9.9HP Yamaha could only do about 5.5 knots under the same conditions. I had some friends who crossed the Atlantic, cruised all over Europe, and did large portions of the ICW on a sweet sailing 27-foot trimaran that carried a little 2.5 HP dinghy motor as main propulsion. It doesn't take much horsepower to get most boats to go about the square root of the waterline length. I see a lot of outboard powered boats carrying way too much weight right aft, which impacts your sailing performance too.
Yep- I can move Tehani with the little 2.2 merc. Hard to STOP though, and backing up? Forget it.
Originally I wanted a very small engine, that I could easily remove and lay crossways in the lazzerette. Running the ICW between places where you can sail showed me the impracticality of that. There are LOTS of miles long straight ditches twixt here and the Chesapeake Bay where you simply can't sail. Some parts in Louisiana are 40 miles of rifle barrel straight. A 6 HP would do every thing my 8 does, but when I bought mine, the 6 and 8 were the same engine, same weight, different carbs. Didn't make sense to buy one.
Another point is- many draw bridges (and locks) won't allow passage with sails up, even with the engine running. Putting an engine back in place would be a royal PITA!!
What I'd REALLY like is a 4 HP, two cylinder 4 stroke, weighing around 30 pounds.
That engine doesn't exist, so I'll keep what I have, sail when I can ( which I do often) and motor when I can't.
Kinda going far off topic here, but......
I've been trying to work the Logistics of a getting a boat to and from water where I'm at, as i am very much land locked, LOL. and being as AR isn't exactly a sailing Mecca ya know. one thing you all have mentioning of the ICW, this got me to thinking, i am within 50 or so miles of a White river that is seasonal for barges and is maintained by the Corp, at a supposed 8 feet. goes through a very long stretch of national forest and shoots straight to the Mississippi no locks no dams eather, would that be something worth exploring as a possible motor cruise in a say 30' boat with the mast down for a possible route to the gulf? the national forest is so rugged not much tourism, so would make for a unique experience for sure, but also few fuel stops along the way....
http://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html
Is any part of the Loop near your location?
Hay Skylark
the White river runs into the Mississippi right north of where the Arkansas river runs into the Mississippi, in fact theres a lock between the 2 a bit north.of the rivers mouths, and from looking at the map provided on the website provided I'm about in the middle of the lower Mississippi's route, that appears to be ill favored for its lack of marinas, gas resupply, tugs and bugs , is also north of the Geenville marina so at least i would have that stop.
Quote from: skylark on March 19, 2014, 05:19:14 AM
http://www.captainjohn.org/GL-5-Scoop.html
Is any part of the Loop near your location?
There is a Bodega 30 for sale in Titusville for $12k.
The Bodega 30 is the same design as our new boat, a Golden Gate 30. They aren't really common on the east coast, but folks from the west coast seem to be familiar with them. I know of at least 2 that have circumnavigated and the rest have undertaken pretty extensive voyages (Chuck Burns, the designer, sailed one to Hawaii).
The boat is a full keel, moderate displacement boat with a deck stepped rig. The interior is -AMAZING- for a 30ft boat, there are 5 berths, a nav table, and a full galley. The rig is a pretty simple sloop rig and balances very very well. I've yet to see a full keel boat with such a nice and functional interior layout and nice sailing characteristics, which is why we bought the Golden Gate 30 we did.
The Bodega in Titusville needs a bit of work, but if you can get it down in price a little, it could make a great boat. We looked at buying it and probably would have, but I don't have the time to invest in her. She is pretty well equipped, with a Norvane, autohelm, vhf, profurl, solent stay, and a number of other goodies. One of the prior owners sailed her from Alaska to NC, so that tells you how capable the boat is.
You can find the owner's details at http://goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/sailing_classifieds/boats_for_sale.php, just search the page for Bodega.
The only issue, with your list, is that this boat requires an inboard. I don't think you are going to find something in your size range that really works well with an outboard, without significant modification (e.g. a well). I would seriously consider this boat if you don't mind putting a little work into it and don't mind the inboard.
If you are seriously interested and it's OK with the owners, I will go take a bunch of pictures for you and do an ad hoc survey on the boat. I took a bunch for my own benefit, but, despite loving the boat, knew off the bat she wasn't going to work for us, so I wasn't super thorough. I'm not sure how happy they'd be about me doing that, since I already walked away, but the offer is on the table, none the less.
Adodero
Thank you for the heads-up on the Golden Gate 30 and its sister designs, it is one that i have not seen mentioned before on any lists Ive looked at., and its fits alot of my needs well. But at this point in things I'm just looking and studying on my wants and perceived needs in a boats, it will be a bit before i can actually get serious with this dream, unless its some sort of crazy deal, but i always enjoy looking at boats so if you have any pics already i would love to look, but don't make a special trip to get any, i wish i could move my time table up, but Ive already got major projects underway, that will take a bit more time to complete then i can get more serious with things.
Quote from: Adodero on April 11, 2014, 01:53:12 PM
There is a Bodega 30 for sale in Titusville for $12k.
The Bodega 30 is the same design as our new boat, a Golden Gate 30. They aren't really common on the east coast, but folks from the west coast seem to be familiar with them. I know of at least 2 that have circumnavigated and the rest have undertaken pretty extensive voyages (Chuck Burns, the designer, sailed one to Hawaii).
The boat is a full keel, moderate displacement boat with a deck stepped rig. The interior is -AMAZING- for a 30ft boat, there are 5 berths, a nav table, and a full galley. The rig is a pretty simple sloop rig and balances very very well. I've yet to see a full keel boat with such a nice and functional interior layout and nice sailing characteristics, which is why we bought the Golden Gate 30 we did.
The Bodega in Titusville needs a bit of work, but if you can get it down in price a little, it could make a great boat. We looked at buying it and probably would have, but I don't have the time to invest in her. She is pretty well equipped, with a Norvane, autohelm, vhf, profurl, solent stay, and a number of other goodies. One of the prior owners sailed her from Alaska to NC, so that tells you how capable the boat is.
You can find the owner's details at http://goodoldboat.com/resources_for_sailors/sailing_classifieds/boats_for_sale.php, just search the page for Bodega.
The only issue, with your list, is that this boat requires an inboard. I don't think you are going to find something in your size range that really works well with an outboard, without significant modification (e.g. a well). I would seriously consider this boat if you don't mind putting a little work into it and don't mind the inboard.
If you are seriously interested and it's OK with the owners, I will go take a bunch of pictures for you and do an ad hoc survey on the boat. I took a bunch for my own benefit, but, despite loving the boat, knew off the bat she wasn't going to work for us, so I wasn't super thorough. I'm not sure how happy they'd be about me doing that, since I already walked away, but the offer is on the table, none the less.
Oh man!
I was in Titusville 3 days ago, I easily could have looked at it for you. >:(
Wish I had seen this sooner, but good luck in the search!
Greetings one and All,
Yes i am very much alive and well, with my hopes and dreams in tacked
As the title suggests, thoughts on the Tartan 30. from the information ive found seems a well built boat that might take you anywhere you wanted to go.(with appropriate upgrades and maintenance of course) feel free to ask questions leave comments...in other words lets talk :)
Hi,
Do you have one, or are you looking for one?
Sorry, unable to give you specific information on the 30.
There are many good boat out there, some at fair prices. It helps to have a few that you like. They are attractive to your taste and suit your needs. Then as you search look for those first in very good condition, then well equipped is a bonus.
It is really difficult to tell someone else what they may like.
Do not buy a project boat unless you want a project, and not to be out sailing or cruising. Projects take large amounts of both time and money. It is an expensive proposition to make major repairs or major equipment upgrades.
Just one mans opinion.
You might want to check out this link. Some pretty good info on the Tartan 30.
http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html (http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html)
I don't have any experience on the 30 but have sailed a couple of time on a 41. I must say I like the 41 very much. I think the 30 is just as strongly built as the 41.
Hello Sweetwater
I am just researching things at this point, this particular boat has alot of things i like, from just my reading, but nothing beats first hand experience and many of the folks here are much more knowledgeable than me :)
The prices on the Tartan is not a bank breaker for sure, but as you say, get the best boat you can for the money you can....
Quote from: Sweetwater Pirate on November 18, 2014, 09:34:27 PM
Hi,
Do you have one, or are you looking for one?
Sorry, unable to give you specific information on the 30.
There are many good boat out there, some at fair prices. It helps to have a few that you like. They are attractive to your taste and suit your needs. Then as you search look for those first in very good condition, then well equipped is a bonus.
It is really difficult to tell someone else what they may like.
Do not buy a project boat unless you want a project, and not to be out sailing or cruising. Projects take large amounts of both time and money. It is an expensive proposition to make major repairs or major equipment upgrades.
Just one mans opinion.
Hello Grime
Good to see you again :)
ive read the artificial an they seem to give it a pretty fair shake on things. ive even found second hand info on a couple circumnavigating in one, which is promising.
Quote from: Grime on November 18, 2014, 10:04:47 PM
You might want to check out this link. Some pretty good info on the Tartan 30.
http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html (http://sailingmagazine.net/article-1316-tartan-30.html)
I don't have any experience on the 30 but have sailed a couple of time on a 41. I must say I like the 41 very much. I think the 30 is just as strongly built as the 41.
From what I've read and heard the the Tartan 30 is a good boat. However, if I was planning to do much offshore sailing, my personal preference would be for a more of a full keel design like and Alberg 30 or Cape Dory 28 (both at about the same displacement).
The T30 is a bit more of a MORC racer/cruiser and the short fin keel will keep its wetted surface area low, and is relatively beamy. A full keel may have a bit more natural tracking ability, and its deeper forefoot and slacker bilges should give it an easier motion.
So, as previously with other boats, was curious to see how pronounced the difference was in the performance specs (see chart below from http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html)
which reveal several things...
The A30 motion comfort is a full 50% higher, and its Capsize Ratio is well below the 2.0 limit for an offshore boat, but the T30 is barely below it. Plus the A30 achieves this with 4.25 foot draft, which is considerably below the standard T30 draft of abut 5 feet (and especially the T30 tall rig with 5.5 ft draft).
Looking at the the profiles of the two boats
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=928
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284
and how integrated the long full keel is with the Alberg design and how strong it must be. Also the gradual slope of the A30's keel is much more able to ride up on any reef or shoal.
While the A30 and CD28 (and many other Alberg designs) appear on many of the lists of recommended offshore voyaging boats, I don't believe that I've seen the Tartan 30 on those lists. The [T30] was a popular, lively and roomy club racer/cruiser, but for long distance voyaging that additional motion comfort is an important feature for keeping the crew rested and well fed especially in heavy weather.
For me, the Tartan 27
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=826
is a very appealing smallish cruiser since it has a long full keel/attached rudder, and with its centerboard [up], draws just over 3 feet.
It's interesting to me that the Tartan 27 with this draft has significantly better Capsize Ratio and Motion Comfort specs than the Tartan 30. Having looked at a couple T27s, I've always admired what a great compact dinette/galley/quarter berth/enclosed head layout it has.
There was recently a Tartan 27 (needed a rudder) available for free in my area. I expect that you can probably find an Alberg 30 for about the same price as a Tartan 30.
Hello Jim_ME
Thank you for the very nice and thought out reply, it is greatly appreciated.
Wish i could find a boat like the Tartan, but with the long keel, ive yet to see one though. :(
the Albergs an Awesome boat no doubt, but it just doesn't feel like what im looking for :(
and it may be sacrilege to some, but like the look of the Tartan better than most boats im seeing.
Quote from: Jim_ME on November 24, 2014, 10:57:19 PM
From what I've read and heard the the Tartan 30 is a good boat. However, if I was planning to do much offshore sailing, my personal preference would be for a more of a full keel design like and Alberg 30 or Cape Dory 28 (both at about the same displacement).
The T30 is a bit more of a MORC racer/cruiser and the short fin keel will keep its wetted surface area low, and is relatively beamy. A full keel may have a bit more natural tracking ability, and its deeper forefoot and slacker bilges should give it an easier motion.
So, as previously with other boats, was curious to see how pronounced the difference was in the performance specs (see chart below from http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html)
which reveal several things...
The A30 motion comfort is a full 50% higher, and its Capsize Ratio is well below the 2.0 limit for an offshore boat, but the T30 is barely below it. Plus the A30 achieves this with 4.25 foot draft, which is considerably below the standard T30 draft of abut 5 feet (and especially the T30 tall rig with 5.5 ft draft).
Looking at the the profiles of the two boats
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=928
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284
and how integrated the long full keel is with the Alberg design and how strong it must be. Also the gradual slope of the A30's keel is much more able to ride up on any reef or shoal.
While the A30 and CD28 (and many other Alberg designs) appear on many of the lists of recommended offshore voyaging boats, I don't believe that I've seen the Tartan 30 on those lists. The [T30] was a popular, lively and roomy club racer/cruiser, but for long distance voyaging that additional motion comfort is an important feature for keeping the crew rested and well fed especially in heavy weather.
For me, the Tartan 27
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=826
is a very appealing smallish cruiser since it has a long full keel/attached rudder, and with its centerboard [up], draws just over 3 feet.
It's interesting to me that the Tartan 27 with this draft has significantly better Capsize Ratio and Motion Comfort specs than the Tartan 30. Having looked at a couple T27s, I've always admired what a great compact dinette/galley/quarter berth/enclosed head layout it has.
There was recently a Tartan 27 (needed a rudder) available for free in my area. I expect that you can probably find an Alberg 30 for about the same price as a Tartan 30.
"and it may be sacrilege to some, but like the look of the Tartan better than most boats im seeing."
That's why there are so many different boats. The one for you is the one that makes you turn around for one last look as you are walking away down the dock, or rowing away in the dinghy.
I found mine :D
For me, I've usually chosen a boat based on its seaworthiness and sea-kindliness more than its looks, which may be unrelated to these qualities.
Often when I've looked at boats that had a good reputation for these qualities, did not always initially strike me as good looking, but were sometimes an acquired taste.
The Rhodes Meridian 25 is exceptionally seaworthy and sea kindly, especially for its size. Perhaps the reason that these qualities and visual appeal coincide for Charlie is that he has so much experience and knows what is important and works (for him).
I remember Charlie posting a few years ago about his voyage to Mexico delivering a Tartan 41, no doubt a beautiful looking boat, but if I recall correctly, he was not particularly impressed with the boat's sea-kindliness during the long slog hard on the wind.
Of course, when you are delivering a boat and trying to get it somewhere as fast as you reasonably can, comfort is a secondary consideration. If Charlie was cruising and had time, he would certainly have done that trip a more comfortable and enjoyable way.
I'm sure that boat is fine for the kind of cruising that many people do, with much of it being coastal where you can pick your weather window and stay in port or motor along the sheltered ICW. This is why I prefaced my comments about the Tartan 30 by saying that if you are planning to do much offshore sailing, in my (and I believe many others with more experience) opinion, you can do better.
There are indeed many different boats out there, but some are far better at certain uses than others. Like many things we all gain experience from our mistakes, and from owning boats that we discover are not the best ones for us. The qualities in a boat that seemed important, may tend to mature and shift over time and with experience. The type of sailing/cruising that we do may change over time, and so may the needs in a boat.
When someone asks for advice or comments on a particular boat, or type of boat, I'm happy to give it, but understand that people have to do what they think is best from where they currently are, and will learn from experience what is important and works for them. That's what we all do, more or less. so make the best decisions that you can and get out there and start gaining experience, and make changes as you go.
As I recall, the Tartan 30 had the engine way forward in the cabin under a leg of the U shaped settee. I always thought of this as being a very convenient place for working on the motor. Perhaps less pleasant if you are trying to take a nap there.
By the numbers, the Tartan 30 compares very favorably to my Bayfield 29 in every category except draft (and then only if shallow draft is important to you). I'm certainly willing to take my Bayfield across an ocean (once I replace the rigging) and hopefully will some day even with a slightly above 2.0 CSF. Those numbers are, after all, just guidelines, and I feel very secure in the Bayfield when the weather picks up. In any case, even stringently following those guidelines you would come in under the threshold.
All this to say, if you wanted to do offshore sailing, I think the boat (as usual) will take all that you can handle. Perhaps not the best choice to round the horn in the southern winter; but then, few boats are really built for that, and so are fewer sailors.
Compared to the Alberg 30, the Tartan is bigger with a more comfortable interior (I like the galley along the side layout...others disagree). Probably more nimble. Probably easier to back up (full keels suck here). I think the benefits of full keels are probably a little over stated, although if I have to run aground a full keel makes me more comfortable. Full keels are also less likely to get tangled in lobster/crab traps, though with the big protective skeg on the Tartan's rudder you would probably be OK here. The Alberg may have a more comfortable motion in big seas.
I haven't heard much bad said about the Tartan. If you like the way she looks, can find one in decent shape for a fair price, and feel comfortable aboard, I figure you could do a lot worse.
In the end I guess it depends on what type of sailing you are going to do (really...few of us cross oceans with any regularity), and what floats your emotional boat.
JUST completed a re-model of the main cabin of a Vanguard 32. It had a dinette and a side galley and the owners were talking of buying a different boat because of the lack of room. There was literally no way to pass by the cook without sidling .
I ripped out the entire galley- stove, sink Icebox and replaced it with a large settee berth. Lots of Sawzall work :D
The first pic shows before, the second after all the deconstruction and placing new bulk heads, the next the settee minus the lid to the new under settee ice chest
Then of course, the boat needed a new galley. Edited to read-It had a Qtr berth on both side, open to the cockpit through the cockpit lockers-BAD idea!!!
Closed off the opening on the port berth, and put in a new galley
Couple of pics
First is making a pattern to close off the opening, second is the finished galley. She now has a U-shaped space where she ( or he) can work and be totally out of the way of the passageway.
And lastly, a pic showing how delighted the owners are with the new layout. They now have room for more than two people to sit in the main cabin, and talk.
I detest dinettes on smaller boats.
Thank you Jim, Gogot & CJ for your replies :)
Ok we've been talking motion comfort, and i wonder, what range is acceptable for boats in this size category? obviously higher is better :)
Gogot,
I believe i once read that you didn't think the Bayfield was suitable for offshore? am i remembering wrong or has your thoughts changed.? and if so what brought you to this ?
Yes the engine is in the forward Cabin, and while ive not worked on an engine in a sailboat, i have worked on engines in alot of other places, and i know it is much easier to work on one and maintain it well when you have easy access to it. so to me thats a Plus.
The Draft is 5', which is the limit for most boats ive been looking at, i wish i could just pull it up on the beach at night and tie it to a palm tree so it doesn't run away on me, but haven't found one yet :) ( See, this is where someone will post such a boat for me, see im sneaky like that :D )
the
Gogot you hit on one of the reasons im liking the boat, its a bit beamier than most in this era, and has more room, so a bit more space to live and to provision. extra water, fuel, and food is always nice, as long as your not adversely effecting the boat.
As to the Side Layout, i think i will stick with the traditional aft layout, it just seems like it takes up to much room, and CJ makes a valid point i hadent thought of about always having to move out the way if someone needs by. but if someone can make a valid argument for one im all ears,
Also, i cant find anything specific, i dont think its is a boat with a liner, as that wasn't a thing until after this boat was designed and being built for many years, but would like to make sure is it or is it not a liner boat.
And i imagine you are right the boat will be able to handle more than most ppl including me.
keep the discussion going, this is how we learn new things
i am especially interested in Jims Motion comfort assessment as i had seen it but not understood it well :)
My, what a disjointed and ugly post i have made for you...LOL
:D
I'm not sure I ever said the Bayfield was unsuitable for offshore work as such, although it's possible some of my ruminations went that way at one time. I probably wouldn't take it around Cape Horn. But then, I'm not likely to go around Cape Horn in any boat, so that point is moot.
There are some limitations worth considering in the Bayfield; but they are manageable. Only twenty gallons of water tankage. Eventually I'll at least double that with a new flexible tank under the port settee, and maybe another where the holding tank used to be. The stove is not gimbaled making cooking underway a challenge. I picked up a Force 10 Seacook stove on ebay which works well enough when things get too bumpy for the regular stove. The head is in the bow of the boat, which is a great place for it except for when at sea where the motion makes using it a challenge. There is always a bucket if necessary. Otherwise, the Bayfield seems like a suitable boat, strong and stable. I feel super confident in it, although I miss the nimbleness and windward ability of the little Seafarer. Heck, if I suddenly found myself with enough cash to not have to work for a few years I think she'd be fine on a circumnavigation.
I had the side galley on my Seafarer 24 and generally liked it. It was a very workable space. Occasionally I would wish I had a starboard settee; but not all that often. Of course, I mostly single handed that boat, so never had to worry about bumping in to other crew. Also, I think the long galley is easier for two people to work at simultaneously, and perhaps makes the companionway a little less crowded. I like the layout. Lots of others don't. Definitely a personal preference thing.
Oh, and very definitely not a big deal but I've seen my screen name misspelled a bunch of late: it is Godot with a D, after the Samuel Becket play Waiting for Godot, which was a favorite of the ex-wifes and what she named the Seafarer. I'd change it; but I'm afraid that would get confusing.
On the side galley- couple points that sealed the deal for them.
First, he's 6'2 and 220 pounds, and she's slender, but 5'9, so sometimes it was a squeeze.
Second, he play's guitar and with only the dinette seats, one at each end of the table,, there was zero place he could sit and do that.
Third, before, there were only two readily available places to sit below, if they had company. Now, another couple, or even several people, can come below and sit comfortably to visit. Plus, now the two of them can snuggle on the settee and watch a movie on a computer sitting on the dinette ;)
So all in all, for THEM it is a much better deal.
Hay again All.
Godot, with a D :)...my bad i do not know where i got the G from...
Ok
In my constant wandering of the internet i keep running across things so here's a new one
All right im a bit confused on this and cant find much of an answer
Tartan 30
sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1284)
Vineyard Vixen 30
sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=834 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=834)
the Tartan is listed as a Fin Keel w/Skeg
the Vixen is listed as a Long Keel
So what makes the Vixen a Long Keel?
i realize the Tartans Keel is bolted on, but is that the difference? is the Vixens Keel internally keep thus making it a long keel in some way im not understanding?
Also how would the keels compare to each other in various sailing/motoring conditions.?
im just curious and trying to learn :)
I don't think it has anything to do with the way it's attached to the hull. I think a long keel is just that...longer than what they consider to be a fin. It looks a like a little less draft which probably had to be compensated for by extending the keel aft slightly. I guess. I have no idea what the threshold would be. The Tartan 30 looks like it has better prop protection, though, which could be something worth considering.
I think that the term meant by whomever filled out the sailboatdata form is "Long FIN keel" to distinguish it from a short fin keel, which may just be called a fin keel (as for the Tartan 30).
I find the Vineyard Vixen 30 very beautiful with its double ended form, traditionally lowish free board, and cabin form and proportions. the club-footed jib is easy to handle especially when solo sailing, and quick tacking up a channel or inlet.
The keel-stepped mast is a structurally strong design, eliminating the possibility of the mast compression loading of the deck/bulkhead/beam. It is the type that most of the larger wooden boats used.
I like the way the keel is integrated into the hull form with internal ballast and probably has somewhat slack bilges which would help give a sea-kindly motion.
I'm not a big fan of the short deep fin external-ballast keels that are bolted to the hull on cruising boats. You can imagine how much torque they put on that short connection to the hull if you hit something hard. I had seen a few fin keel boats that had hit rock reefs hard and the amount of damage that it did to the hull, where a typical full keel (or even a long fin keel the the Vineyard Vixen, or the Tartan 34, has) with a gradually sloping keel leading edge will ride up on a reef. Have seen those too, where there is just a scrape on the keel.
From the amount of the boat that is dedicated to the cockpit (you can especially see it in the profile drawing) I would say that the Vixen is optimized for coastal cruising with some daysailing/weekending with a lot of people aboard who can spread out in the relatively large cockpit. For primarily offshore sailing/voyaging all that cockpit volume could be a liability. Maybe there is another version with a bit less cockpit and a bit more cabin length? (Like the Pearson Ariel 26 versus the Commander 26 versions for these different purposes).
On the Vixen keel form, it is interesting that the ballast is all forward of the sump, so there is none in the extension. It does increase the lateral plane, but they chose not to have the aft end of the keel rise vertically to meet the hull, which makes me think that they did not want that much area, to keep that cutaway between the keel and rudder large, and make it more maneuverable. Perhaps it is done with that heel extension to decrease the distance that a lobster pot line would have to rise up and foul the prop (or rudder). It would also provide more keel bottom length and make the boat more stable fore-and-aft if you careened/dried out the boat against a dock to clean the bottom without having to haul it out on a lift, and spread the load of the boat out over a greater keel length/area.
Hay All
Jim, you are correct in the Vixen is beautiful with the canoe stern and the traditional style. really like the look, but as you say not the best suited for a long distance boat.
The internal ballast is preferred by me as well im still looking for a boat with all the design features i like, but "perfect boat" may not be out there for me, at a price i can afford, at any rate.
Ive done a bit of looking, and see if you all concur, the keel here, i think is termed a "Brewer Bite", after Ted Brewer, still not sure if that makes it a long keel or a fin keel, most likely its something in between, seems like it might be an interesting compromise between the 2 types, wonder about how it performs compared to the other two.
The Vixen Data may just be a typo, as i looked at a few others of the type such as the Hullmaster/HM-27
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5517 (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5517)
And I really like the lines on this boat as well, but i never heard of it till i looked at Mr. Brewers designs.
Thanks all for contributing to the discussion, this type of stuff, spurs me to look at new and different stuff and re-evaluate things some times.
Quote from: Jim_ME on December 01, 2014, 12:43:25 AM
I think that the term meant by whomever filled out the sailboatdata form is
"Long FIN keel" to distinguish it from a short fin keel, which may just be called a fin keel (as for the Tartan 30).
I find the Vineyard Vixen 30 very beautiful with its double ended form, traditionally lowish free board, and cabin form and proportions. the club-footed jib is easy to handle especially when solo sailing, and quick tacking up a channel or inlet.
The keel-stepped mast is a structurally strong design, eliminating the possibility of the mast compression loading of the deck/bulkhead/beam. It is the type that most of the larger wooden boats used.
I like the way the keel is integrated into the hull form with internal ballast and probably has somewhat slack bilges which would help give a sea-kindly motion.
I'm not a big fan of the short deep fin external-ballast keels that are bolted to the hull on cruising boats. You can imagine how much torque they put on that short connection to the hull if you hit something hard. I had seen a few fin keel boats that had hit rock reefs hard and the amount of damage that it did to the hull, where a typical full keel (or even a long fin keel the the Vineyard Vixen, or the Tartan 24, has) with a gradually sloping keel leading edge will ride up on a reef. Have seen those too, where there is just a scrape on the keel.
From the amount of the boat that is dedicated to the cockpit (you can especially see it in the profile drawing) I would say that the Vixen is optimized for coastal cruising with some daysailing/weekending with a lot of people aboard who can spread out in the relatively large cockpit. For primarily offshore sailing/voyaging all that cockpit volume could be a liability. Maybe there is another version with a bit less cockpit and a bit more cabin length? (Like the Pearson Ariel 26 versus the Commander 26 versions for these different purposes).
On the Vixen keel form, it is interesting that the ballast is all forward of the sump, so there is none in the extension. It does increase the lateral plane, but they chose not to have the aft end of the keel rise vertically to meet the hull, which makes me think that they did not want that much area, to keep that cutaway between the keel and rudder large, and make it more maneuverable. Perhaps it is done with that heel extension to decrease the distance that a lobster pot line would have to rise up and foul the prop (or rudder). It would also provide more keel bottom length and make the boat more stable fore-and-aft if you careened/dried out the boat against a dock to clean the bottom without having to haul it out on a lift, and spread the load of the boat out over a greater keel length/area.
I would say that "Brewer Bite Keel" is a full keel with a cutaway (bite) aft [and slight forefoot cutaway] to make it a bit more maneuverable.
I've always admired Brewer's Jason 35 design
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4413
This layout appears to me to be optimized for a cruising couple, with only two sea berths (the settee berths in the main cabin). A design choice was made to have an aft galley, large chart table/nav station, and maximum storage in the aft main cabin and cockpit lockers, instead of a quarter berth (or two). (He may have done another layout with extra sea berths for a cruising family.)
In this design the "bite" is even relatively smaller, and the rudder gets virtually all the support and protection that a full keel design would offer. Notice how compact the cockpit is, giving more space to the cabin.
Looking at the profile, and the beautiful hull form and cabin proportions, sheer, I think that this design is about as close to perfection as can be found.
The interior layout plan is incredibly clean, symmetrical, and aligned...everything is integrated and nothing appears to be an added afterthought. Even the drawings are exceptionally clean and straightforward.
Joe, I kinda ran with the topic of Brewer's Bite keel and it gave me a chance to post on his Jason 35 design, and although an interesting subject to discuss, as a practical matter, there may not be many Brewer boats on the market in your price range.
I did see this ad for a Jason 35 in the PNW...for $20K
http://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/4730676078.html
although the seller does write
"I'm open to offers at this point".
and includes a link to a blog about Another Jason 35
http://svpisces.blogspot.com/about
I did just post an ad that I saw for an Alberg 30 near Galveston, Texas in the SellFar section.
The boat is missing it's rig, but you should be able to find a used rig fairly reasonably with some time. [Or at least a mast & boom, even if you redo your standing rigging.]
The ad price is $3k, but does say "Moving, need boat sold. Make offer."
Also "Boat was dis-masted in the Atlantic but made it home safely."
Quote from: Cyric30 on December 12, 2014, 01:33:59 PM
Jim Thank you for the info, and also the time you spend writing them.
Quote from: Jim_ME on December 11, 2014, 05:58:48 PM
Hey Joe, In general, I wouldn't recommend an Alberg 35 (such as the one in this thread), or any boat near this size, to anyone that was just getting into cruising and planned to do much single-handed cruising.
For me, personally, it is more an issue of [initial, use, and maintenance] cost than difficulty [though they are related]. I would, at most only be cruising/living aboard for a part of the year, so the boat would not be my only home, and I would want to keep the costs of hauling out and storage reasonable. I have a heavy duty boat trailer so could have a boat hauled out and loaded onto that trailer, and then could tow it home to park in the driveway/yard for the winter. My personal limit would be about a 28-30 foot/9000 pound boat [Alberg 30, Cape Dory 28]. With an Alberg 35 [12600 lb/9.7-foot beam], it would mean having the boat hauled out and stored in a boatyard (for up to 8 months) per year in this area, or hauled out, the mast unstepped, and the boat delivered to my driveway by a commercial hauler with hydraulic trailer (and special permits for beam over 8.5 feet). Both of these options are considerably more expensive than my being able to take care of this myself independently, and provide a strong disincentive to get a boat so large. For others with more financial ability, the additional cost is worth it, but not for me. Some may take their boat South most winters, and so then the cost of hauling/storing a larger boat and the short season here is not as much of a consideration.
[If cost was not nearly as much of a consideration, or I would be taking the boat South in winter, an A35 would be on my short list of "ultimate" voyaging boats.]
If affordability is an important factor, I would [as others have previously] encourage people to start with the smallest (within reason), seaworthy boat that will allow them to do the kind of sailing/cruising that they plan to do, in reasonable comfort (which varies for different people).
There are many threads in the SailFar - People, Boats, and Stories > Boat Discussion Section that discuss boat selection size, use, and affordability, so yes, it may be better to review and add to those, so that whatever we may add will be useful [that is, easier to find in a broader discussion thread] as a reference in the future.
You're welcome, Joe. I'm posting my reply here in this existing thread and editing the title because it seems like it would be better to tell the story of your search for a boat in a more holistic and comprehensive way, reviewing the features that you had initially sought in a boat, and how your thinking about those may be evolving (or not on some) as this process proceeds, and perhaps including what specific models you are considering here--rather than in separate threads, which may tend to break what is one narrative up into fragments, about one specific feature or one boat model, etc.
This is the thread where you introduced your criteria for a boat, and since the thread may serve as a reference in the future to what that whole process is like, and since SailFar does keep these threads for that purpose, why don't we try to tell that story (including advice and comments from the rest of us) here?
I'm including the your quote about what I wrote about the Alberg 35, since that applies to any boat of that size, and your search, so should be part of this thread (I believe).
I am interested to learn how things are going with the search in general, whether you may have adjusted some of your criteria as you you use them in the actual marketplace, on the actual boats that are available in your price and geographic range. Also, whether you feel that you are actually ready to get a boat, and if so, what you may be finding are other barriers to getting one, and aspects of your search like this, for instance...
[Edit: Since the thread on the Tartan 30 seems like just a specific part of your boat search, Joe, I've taken the liberty of merging it with your earlier one, and retitling it "Cyric's Boat Search".]
[Also, I thought that the original title that focused on only the beam of a boat, which was just one of many of your initial criteria, could be made more general to reflect the whole range of features that you were interested in.]
When I posted the ad and photo of the Alberg 35 in the SellFar section it was intended as a post of general interest, especially since Alberg designs are so common among SailFar members, and also the unfortunate aspect of such a good design being subjected to sinking, and on the market as a project as a result.
I didn't intend it as a recommended boat for you Joe, but when I added the offhand comment "If I had to get a boat with about 10 feet of beam, I wouldn't mind too much if it was in the form of an Alberg 35...", it was in part in response to boats of this beam, which was one of your initial criterion in this thread.
Also, my comment "That is a keel..." in reference to the photo of A35's robust full keel, after we had been discussing the Tartan 30's and other boats keels, I may well have blurred the discussion between the A35 and these boats which you were considering the features of in your search.
I believe these are all good discussions to have, but [I/we] may need to clarify whether [we're] speaking in terms of general universal principles, or whether in the context of your search in response to your particular needs in a boat.
I should also probably mention that although I may give an opinion about beam, size, keel type, etc. in general, in response to someone who is asking for advice as part of a process of trying to figure out what he/she may want in a first boat, I probably would not to someone that is not asking.
So when Adam [Godot] joined in this discussion, pointing out that the Tartan 30 performance specifications are very similar to those of his boat, I do want to say that my advice to you [Joe] is not intended as a critique of his choice of boat. Adam was not asking for my opinion, and it is somewhat moot for him since he already has his boat, and his boat seems to be serving him well, as we can see from his blog of the recent trip to Martha's Vineyard.
Yet, since we have gone there to some extent, even indirectly, I do seem to place more stock and weight on the performance specs, especially the Capsize Ratio and the Motion Comfort figures than he does. I do believe that when your boat design has these qualities, it is of benefit in more situations than at the kinds of conditions that one would encounter when rounding Cape Horn.
For example, I can remember taking my Typhoon out and enjoying sailing in the harbor in conditions that would make other boats (of that size or even larger) uncomfortable, and when I would pass some of them heading back in. There were times when I would take people out that were new to sailing and more sensitive to the motions of a sailboat, and I often believed that it was more comfortable for them. (I especially noticed this after selling the Typhoon 19 and taking people out in the my Rhodes Mariner 19.)
Yet I do, of course, understand how someone that is living on a boat in a slip that may charge by the length of the boat, [or for other considerations] might favor the roominess that a wider beam provides over motion comfort in rougher seas, to suit those particular priorities.
Adam has written that he would be okay taking his boat on a voyage across an ocean, and I admire that kind of spirit of adventure, but if I am being candid, I would have to confess that I would be interested to hear how he felt after being out in the kinds of conditions that boats with more favorable performance attributes have are reported to be better suited (or more optimized) for.
So it seems like when this happens we have to sometimes respectfully agree to disagree to some extent, and allow for that the other person's beliefs and priorities may evolve over time, as I expect mine will, as well.
So, Joe - in 10 months you've looked at a lot of boats and hopefully learned a lot as well from that and in the discussion here. That got me wondering:
Any changes to your "specs" as you wrote them back in March? :)
Interestingly, just the other day there was posted in article in Duckworks Online, that references this exact thing- Buying a boat. He's not discussing long term cruising, but You may still find it of interest-
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/15/columns/guest/lily/index.htm#.VI5GW8lvaXg
That article looks interesting Charlie, I'll have to read it in depth, but at a quick glance I do see that the writer ended up buying boats considerably smaller than than they initially envisioned.
Many of us have probably already read it, and it is posted elsewhere in these threads, but I like James Baldwin's discussion...
Choosing a small voyaging sailboat
http://atomvoyages.com/planning/good-old-boats-list.html
...including his Good Old Boats List and discussion of the individual designs, which seems to have been expanded since I last read it.
Looking through the list of good boats, I notice how many don't have 10 feet of beam...that don't have 9 feet. (Baldwin himself has circumnavigated twice in a 28'-6" LOA Triton with an 8'-3" beam.) Charlie has cruised thousands of miles in one of these good old boats--one that is about 3 feet shy of 10 feet beam.
So my concern about giving one feature, such as beam, so much weight in your consideration, is that you may exclude so many of these good boats, limiting your options over something that may not prove to be as important as you initially think.
With talks like these...I think one of the most important factors is for the purchaser to be totally honest with him(her)self as to how they will actually use the boat. Not in their dreams...but in reality. By doing this, mistakes can be avoided. Coastal cruising is a totally different set of needs than offshore. A great offshore design compromises beam and interior room and often shallow draft (if the Keys or Bahamas are planned). Likewise...a great coastal cruiser will compromise comfort and safety offshore. I should add that (in my opinion) going to the Bahamas really isn't worthy of a true "off shore design" and can easily be accomplished in good weather by a well found coastal cruiser. Honesty of actual use will make decisions easier....and the owner happier in the end. Just my 1 1/2 cents
Quote from: Frank on December 15, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
With talks like these...I think one of the most important factors is for the purchaser to be totally honest with him(her)self as to how they will actually use the boat. Not in their dreams...but in reality.
Frank, I wholeheartedly agree. That is a critical part of the search and decision process.
Part of that honesty is also that when you don't know how you will actually use a boat, to be honest with oneself and tell yourself "
I really don't know." Buyers may have hopes and dreams, and we admire and encourage this, since it is what often brings us to sailing and cruising in the first place.
But cruising is usually about building on those dreams with plans and boats that will work in the real world. Working out our finances so they work in reality. I appreciated Adam's statement after returning from cruising and experiencing a kind of withdrawal (to the effect) that he would like to find a way to keep cruising and get his work done at the same time.
Sometimes it is what kind of cruising that you will actually do as a couple, or even a family, and this can pile on even more layers of uncertainty about what actual kind of cruising and how much you may do... This was my experience, but this topic could probably fill a thread of its own, if it hasn't already somewhere.
I agree with what you say Frank about this inverse relationship between these qualities, and we are talking now about between a good coastal boat and a good offshore boat, but it could also be between racing and cruising, "luxury" and simplicity, number of berths vs amount of stowage space, economy vs quality, beauty (lots of teak trim) vs maintenance cost and effort, draft and stability, and probably many other such characteristics.
But it is mostly at the more pure extremes that they are a binary thing...like a switch...mutually exclusive. there are usually a middle ground that is a reasonable blend or compromise of these qualities. So it is when you buy a boat that is out of that middle ground and specialized toward one of these types of sailing that there is the most risk that the boat will be unsuitable for the other type of sailing or cruising than it was optimized for.
So if there is a good chance that one really doesn't know what kind of sailing that he/she/they may be doing, it does make sense to get a boat that is moderate in these many qualities.
And one that is a good deal and reasonably well-regarded on the market so that you can recover the investment and get a boat better suited to what you discover you actually need as you figure out with experience what that is.
I do also believe that you minimize that risk by starting with a modestly sized boat. If you can set it up on a trailer, especially here in the North with our short sailing and long storage seasons, that is a real plus.
If you are uncomfortable making the initial leap of investing in a 30-32 foot boat, especially with very particular qualities that make it more expensive-- there are probably very good reasons for that discomfort. Listen to them. I wish that I had been more reluctant than I was when I bought my 30-foot boat based on what turned out to be wishful thinking about needs of myself and my partner at the time. I believe that is is much better to start modest sized and work up than to overreach and discover that at great financial and emotional expense. Having a white elephant that is difficult and time consuming to resell as it strains your finances and relationship, whether you use it or not, can be be an unforgiving experience.
ABSOLUTELY!!
Better to start a tad on the small size, and then move up (if desired) than to over boat up front
You are right CJ....there are SO many fine boats out there in the 25-28ft range that it certainly makes it easy to start on the smaller side. Jim...I agree with your mention of not burying yourself with a boat until you learn how you will actually use one. Often dreams aren't the reality. Oceans don't have to be crossed for great adventures ;)
A good while ago, I started a Cross 35 trimaran, building with the dream of the southern islands- Tahiti, etc.
Seven years later I launched the boat. As it turned out, the only cruising I managed was the Florida Keys, and the only ocean sailing she got to do was when my son and I brought her around from Florida. Started the boat in 1976, sold her in 1986.
I've done more cruising, both with two aboard and single hand, in my 25 foot Tehani than I ever managed aboard the tri. The ONLY way I'd want a larger boat would be if I was to become a full time live aboard, with zero shore side facilities.
And the upkeep is SO much less. I get two coats of bottom paint form a gallon on Tehani- the tri took two gallons for two coats.
Tehani is smaller than James Baldwin's Atom or CaptK's Katie, but she suits me just fine- there are HUNDREDS of ports on the US coast, and in the Bahamas, that I've never seen ;D
Picture is of the day we launched the tri, I'm circled- had hair then :D
Hay all,
im a bit under the weather right now, stomach bug, im keeping up with thread, but cant concentrate enough to get solid responses yet, give me a day or 2 :(
Charlie, that is an impressive accomplishment to have built that trimaran. Glad to see the photo of her.
I understand that you had a larger crew in those days, and if you were thinking at the time of going to the Southern Islands, then you would have been cruising and living aboard for extended periods. I can understand why you would have thought that you needed a larger boat then. :)
Quote from: Cyric30 on December 15, 2014, 11:28:07 PM
...cant concentrate enough to get solid responses yet...
As you can see...this never prevented me from posting... ;)
Speaking of Baldwin, Charlie...Just posted an ad for a nice old Triton 28 in the SellFar Section (to try to tempt Joe)...and she's two years older than
Tehani! ;)
Get well, Joe!
Very nice guy. Spent an afternoon ( and lunch) with he and Mei some time ago.
Yep- wife and teen aged son. Here's a very fuzzy pic of the boat sailing in the open Atlantic
Couple of points on the SailFar idea. ALL of my boats have really been sailFar boats.. Simple, basic.
NONE of my boats has had shore power built in. When we DID need it, we used an extension cord. Wind generator on the top of the mizzen mast. NOISY!!!
NOW I prefer solar- it's quiet ;)
None of my boats has had refrigeration- only ice chests. Ice not readily available? We did without.
And in my entire final year of cruising that tri, she didn't touch a dock a single time- ALWAYS on her own anchors
Quote from: Jim_ME on December 15, 2014, 11:43:57 PM
Charlie, that is an impressive accomplishment to have built that trimaran. Glad to see the photo of her.
I understand that you had a larger crew in those days, and if you were thinking at the time of going to the Southern Islands, then you would have been cruising and living aboard for extended periods. I can understand why you would have thought that you needed a larger boat then. :)
Thanks- yep- for 3 years she was my only home. And part of that time my wife and I were both working as computer Programmers :o and the boy was attending school.
THEN we went cruising :)
That Triton at $7800 is a *steal*...
Hello All,
Feeling better now, thankfully i didn't get as sick as most at work.
Jim-E thanks for consolidating all my Messes into one large mess :o
There is so much to relate, and i have been remiss in posting most of it.
I guess i should start with a State of the Cyric address LOL :)
Alrighty Then, lets back up. In Late Aug. I bit the bullet and Hopped a train (first time on a train, if you've never been across country in a train, try it some time, was fun)to Galveston. where i took ASA 101, 103/4 at a school down there, got a taste of sailing both good and bad. spent a week living on the boat in a marina (the school was nice enough to let me stay instead of having to find a room) can say on the whole it was very enjoyable, and productive experience. The instructors said i did better than about 95% of the other student that come through ( which unfortunately i can believe having been on the boat with some other students, and which is frankly sad, as all i did was read the book and learn to tie some knots). but i digress. Anyway I'm still here after the experience, dreams intact.
After that i got some other projects i was working on to a decent stopping point, and now saving money for the next sailing endeavors.
If you would like more info feel free to PM me as there's alot more story behind the classes.
So that's where I'm am at the moment.
Ok. i seen CapnK ask if my thoughts had changed over the course of time since i originally posted this. yes and no. :), let me expand on that :D
my thoughts have changed a little on my ideal blue water boat. the inboard vs. outboard motor, if its got a diesel for sure keep it , a gas inboard is a tossup to me, i can work on gas engines pretty good, but I've also watched a few vehicles burn to the ground from old gas engines as well, am not keen on having that chance on a boat. I still would like a outboard mount though, just in case of an emergency, could use a dingy motor if worse comes to worse. the beam of 10' still would be nice, but most likely will have to compromise on that one, just to few boat fall into that category. but that's about all the things i would like to change for a blue water boat i would like to find.
What has changed the most is my perspective on things. while i still would like to own the boat in my beginning post, and hope to some day. i now know that i don't need that much boat to go some of the places i would like to go, so i have scaled my original goal back to a long term thing to work toward.
What i hope to do initially is find a smaller boat that will take me around the Bahamas for a few winters to gain much needed experience. i think that would be more cost effective use of my time and money. the Article Cj posted from the Duckworks was an eye opener. i had labored under the impression that once you bought a boat that was it, you would never get your money back when you sold it, it was always a loss situation, and i guess outfitting a boat for blue water work that might be true. but finding a boat that will make the hop to the Bahamas, that is simply neglected and needs some TLC, seems a much easier boat to find at a good price, and get your money back when you move on, than buying the "Bluewater-Walletbuster5000 MK IX-B" :)
So my scaled back initial goal is Cheap 25-26' shallow draft boat that needs some TLC (trailorable would be nice as well) to make the hop to the Bahamas for the winter i could work on as i sailed, bring it back and get my money back out of it.
Any ideas, comment, am i messing up.?
So That's how my thinking has evolved since i posted 10 Months ago. what do you guys think.? short term Experience and Bahama, Long term the Worlds the limit LOL :)
I still would like to get some more experience before i tried to do anything on my own, hope to find someone who needs some crew for a week or 2 over my vacation to get some time in. still so much i don't know how to properly do. :(
I would like to keep things going, these post encourage me to keep at it.
Cyric
Hi Joe, Glad to hear that you are feeling better. :)
You're welcome, It's true that by consolidating and generalizing, I can pile on and help make this into an epic marathon of advice and encouragement...
[Edit: to remove State of the Cyric30 response humor...tired...] ;)
Quote from: Cyric30 on December 17, 2014, 03:06:27 PM
What has changed the most is my perspective on things. while i still would like to own the boat in my beginning post, and hope to some day. i now know that i don't need that much boat to go some of the places i would like to go, so i have scaled my original goal back to a long term thing to work toward.
What i hope to do initially is find a smaller boat that will take me around the Bahamas for a few winters to gain much needed experience.
...that is simply neglected and needs some TLC, seems a much easier boat to find at a good price, and get your money back when you move on,
So my scaled back initial goal is Cheap 25-26' shallow draft boat that needs some TLC (trailorable would be nice as well)...
Any ideas, comment, am i messing up.?
I (and many here, as some have already written) do believe that this will give you the minimum risk and best chance of success...that is, getting out there and enjoying yourself.
If you find a good deal or opportunity, it doesn't have to be a "cheap" [low quality] boat.
If you are thinking about trailering the boat (as I am myself) any distance behind a conventional vehicle, then that puts some parameters around your options. For instance, a Triton is a large boat to trailer any distance, without a super heavy duty tow vehicle and trailer.
I think that an Ariel/Meridian 25-26 ft/5500 pound sized boat is about as large as is reasonably convenient as a trailer-sailer without having to go heavy duty with tow vehicle/trailer, etc. I like the Cape Dory 25/Allied Greenwich 24 at around 4,000 lbs and 3 foot draft, I've seen some great deals on the CD25s and they are quite seaworthy and can be made offshore capable, if you should need that. I especially like the Hurley 22 as a small trailerable voyager, in the 4000-lb range.
From reading CJ and Craig's reports, the Bahamas can get quite choppy with those winter fronts so if you go much smaller than that...say to a Catalina or ODay 22 shoal keel/centerboarder then it is going to have a pretty uncomfortable motion to sail and try to sleep aboard. You can ask Charlie what he feels Necessity would be like to cruise aboard in the Bahamas in winter. I suspect he would say that it is possible, but with considerably less comfort (and seaworthiness) than Tehani.
Having a trailer-sailer will allow you to keep living where you are, if you want to. You will be able to tow the boat to wherever you want to which is nice if your time for cruising is limited by a job part of the year.
Well...3 am, so I will leave it here for now and get some sleep. [to be continued...]
If I was looking for another trailer sailor I would stay with the Starwind 22. They are heavier built with a heavier swing keel than the Catalina 22. I was told a number of times from people that had been to the Bahamas that Miss Froggy would be good to cross on a good weather window.
Quote from: Frank on December 15, 2014, 03:23:34 PM
With talks like these...I think one of the most important factors is for the purchaser to be totally honest with him(her)self as to how they will actually use the boat. Not in their dreams...but in reality.
I agree with Frank also. I dreamed of sailing around the world, and living on a boat, but the reality is that I probably never will.
I may cruise around the US coast, Canada and the Caribbean, but a RTW sailing trip has lost some of its appeal to me.
So, what I really needed is a boat that I can trailer to the local lakes, or less than 100 miles to the Red River, and from there to the Mississippi and the ICW.
I don't need a large liveaboard boat with its large cost of upkeep. I did end up with a boat that has crossed oceans, and is perfectly capable of doing it again.
In my situation, the boat called out to me, and it was love at first sight! I go into some detail on this blog post: http://www.travelnik.com/2013/04/love-at-first-sight_29.html (http://www.travelnik.com/2013/04/love-at-first-sight_29.html)
Be honest about your real needs, and then see if a boat calls out to you!
Oh man- do I ever know that feeling :)
That's why I have Tehani. I'm in love with the boat :)
I know some may be tired of seeing these pics, but here's before, after, and in full cruising mode
Quote from: CharlieJ on December 19, 2014, 11:08:38 PM
I know some may be tired of seeing these pics, but here's before, after, and in full cruising mode
Never tired of seeing those Charlie, and being inspired. :)
Thanks, but personally I much prefer seeing her like this-
At anchor, Pipe Creek, Exumas
Jim, Seeing Charlie doesn't really inspire me, but looking at his boat sure does ;D
Sorry couldn't resist :)
Charlie
Much prefer the Exumas, they look good on Tehani, you should wear them more often :)
Quote from: Jim_ME on December 20, 2014, 01:37:22 AM
Quote from: CharlieJ on December 19, 2014, 11:08:38 PM
I know some may be tired of seeing these pics, but here's before, after, and in full cruising mode
Never tired of seeing those Charlie, and being inspired. :)
Quote from: Cyric30 on December 20, 2014, 05:44:01 PM
Jim, Seeing Charlie doesn't really inspire me, but looking at his boat sure does ;D
Maybe seeing Charlie
on his boat... :)
Hey, I saw this boat for free not that far from you (far as I can tell...). Looked at one of these to buy many years ago, and it made quite a good impression on me.
Maybe see if you can get the "Sails (bunches) and all deck hardware" from the previous owner for a reasonable price. A bit larger than the 25 footers we were last talking about, but not too much heavier than the Bristol 24 that you last mentioned...(and the price may be right?)
http://knoxville.craigslist.org/boa/4842256375.html
Hello Jim.
I seen that boat on another list im on, But Im afraid thats one that i'll have to pass on, its more than i want to bite off for a firsts timer Pretty boats when there maintained well, but all that Teak seems to take alot to maintain :( also seen a Free Columbia 34 with fiberglass damage for toe rails, but thats more boat than i need :). right now, if not forever..LOL here it is for your viewing pleasure. http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/boa/4843834299.html
Quote from: Cyric30 on January 13, 2015, 08:37:25 PM
but all that Teak seems to take alot to maintain...
Here ya go...Cheoy Lee with a teak planked hull...that will keep ya from watching too much TV... ;)
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/31590
I know of a Watkins 27 1978 for sale for $1,000 over in Wanchese, N.C. Don't know much about it other than running engine, jib and main. I could message you the guys email if you like.
Haya Grime
Nice to Hear from you :)
Sure Send me any info you have, on it. i like the boats from what ive seen.
Sent you a PM with what info I have and his email. Maybe this one could work out for you.
Have a good evening
WHewww.
just went and looked at a boat today, 800 mile round trip, poop im tired, more info tomorrow, after some much needed sleep.
Hello Again All.
Made it back, a little rested but not really recovered.
Me and a Very Good Buddy headed out Friday morning at 5:00 AM, to look at the 1963 Pearson Triton "Cervantes" and meet up with the Surveyor, who came up to inspect the boat. The trip down was relatively uninteresting, except for Ms. Garmin deciding to make a few "interesting" course choices for us.
Got to the boat about 12:00 about the same time as the Surveyor, so we went out and hunted down the boat. First impression, Yep that's a Triton For Sure how could you not pick it out., Second impression Was, Owner really Likes Don Quixote and man an 8" Dink (dinks name is Sancho :D) sure takes alot of room up on the fordeck.
So we get out start looking it over, Surveyor get out his mallet and starts tapping hull as we search for a ladder, thankfully a short search,
I'll try to go through the ships major systems with an overview
Hull: Hull sounded out good, with no blisters, had a slightly elevated moisture reading on both sides above water line about where a interior girder ruining between where the cabin separates head and wet-locker area, but it was not overly high and went on, well see what report says. he recommends new through hulls, as a precaution due to unknown age, and I'm pretty sure new bottom paint as well.
Rubber: Rubber was decent no excessive play, needed sanded and repainted and one small area (about the size of a dollar coin of outer glassing was showing some separation, but moisture meter didn't read anything and sounded good. attachments where all solid nor worn excessively. Tiller stick was not in best shape, not sure on it.
Deck. Deck was a poop shoot of good and bad. Hardware had been re-bedded recently, don't know how quality it was, unfortunately there was some delamination on deck by windows about 1'x1' area on starboard, and on the Foredeck was the real bad spot not real sure how big an area, but maybe 2'x3' area maybe larger i suspect from the Windless is culprit, but i don't know. Port side seemed Ok, Wood needed a good varnish, some may need replaced. Ports where good in that there where no signs of them leaking, which was the obvious best thing, but the Lexan was cloudy and the just look like they need a rebedding.
Cockpit: Overall, good. Locker hatches need a new seal, and locks, but hinges where still all solid. the Icebox lid is gone and a wood and lexan box was built in its place, More on that in the cabin section.
Mast, Boom & Rigging: Mast & Boom was good, Surveyor found no glaring problems that he pointed out to me, the mast step was a piece of laminated wood, and while not in bad shape, he said he would prefer new wood for that, (and i had noticed it as well before he mentioned it and i agreed). Rigging was average, but need of a good tuning (mast had been stepped, but i don't think it had been tuned at all, and some cotter pins needed to be put in the turnbuckle ends, chain plates and pins did not show excessive wear or stress. Roller furling is either new or freshly rebuilt
Engine: the inboard Atomic 4 had been taken out at some point with a transom mounted electric start Yamaha 9.9 attached with a new mounting bracket, motor turned over, but no gas to attempt to start. so while i think the motors ok, who knows for sure.
Cabin: Down below was a mix of good and bad. The boat was not molded or musty smelling. there was some water in bilge, but not alot and (surveyor said) could be explained by simple condensation. and no telltale's of water intrusion could be found, Surveyor didnt rule it out, but seemed to think there would be alot more water in the boat if there was any kind of leak, (the boat had been setting on the hard for over a year. the interior while not destroyed has been altered in a way i personally don't like but is fixable. Also the Icebox has been removed, which is ok with me as i most likely would have done it anyway, but remember me telling you about the icebox lid in the cockpit ya nothing.....straight into cabin.
Electrical: O My....where to start. Remember my buddy who went with me, Hes a Master Electrician by trade...he was able to get the juice flowing but the wiring looked like rat had built a nest of thrown-up red and green spaghetti. took him and Surveyor to figure it out as my Buddy didn't know boats had a round battery disconnect switch, which was hidden under rats nest. the only up side was once we figured it out, we managed to get all the stuff working, electronics are older, but a knot meter, wind meter, VHF, autopilot cabin and ruining lights all came on and seemed work, My Buddy assures me the electrics its not as bad as it looks, and if he said it, its true.
Sails: Excellent to Brand New, sails where awesome, and roller furling Jib/Geno never been untied to use. Main Clean and exellent shape, Storm jib. Same
That's the main Stuff,
Boat has 4 anchors, 2 danforth type 1 unknown, and a CQB type in bow roller with manual windlass
lotsa lines, tools, set of nice looking bigger Lewmar winches not installed, tons of extra stuff, that we didn't even go through.
Awaiting the Final Survey. We'll see if its worth it
Cant find a Price guide to even give me a ballpark on price.
You could expect to spend anywhere from $4000 to $10,000 for a Triton. Would depend on the survey I would think and how much dealing you can do with the owner. Check SailingTexas website to get an idea on prices.
I know out here in the west where there are a few Tritons around, your description would put it at the bottom end of that range. They are great boats and can be worth the work which it sounds like it may take.
I have to ask this question. What do you want to do most Sail or work on the boat?
I wanted to sail but ended up working and working on the boat. Now health issues forces me to put her up for sale. Never got to enjoy her.
Take your time the right boat with the right price will come along.
Joe, Congrats on going to look at the Triton. Even if you do not get this boat, each boat that you inspect and evaluate will build your experience.
What you have described about the deck is a common condition with these older boats. Deck cores can be repaired but it is a substantial project and if you take on such a project, it is important to buy it at a good price.
I understand that the "West Coast" Triton models (that Tim mentioned) have a solid fiberglass laminate deck with no core. I saw one for sale at a very reasonable price a few years back.
Some can take on project boat that needs extensive work and successfully complete repairs and eventually sail, so these activities are not always mutually exclusive. Charlie has done it, Woody and RaLay, and others. But it is definitely not for everyone, and boatyards, backyards, and marinas have many derelicts the give testimony of underestimated projects and overestimated skills..and endurance. It is an exceptional owner(s) that can realistically evaluate their own abilities and willingness to do the hard and long-term work that such a boat requires. Although I have more experience with age, I seem to have less energy and drive, and miss having a partner to share the process and sailing--so it can vary with time and situation even with the same person.
I saw the ad below a couple weeks ago, for a free Triton in Baltimore, and thought seriously about pursuing it. It was in the water and tempting to make a go of sailing it back, even expecting to find that it needed deck core work. Yet the worst time of year to attempt such a cruise, even in a boat of such a seaworthy design, but unknown condition. I considered what would be involved to get down there and prepare for the trip. One bonus would be to meet Adam...who is in the area. It would have been a stretch in many respects...time, cost, effort, commitment... I found it daunting and decided to consider it for a day or two...knowing that it would likely soon be taken by someone else closer by, or with deeper pockets, or other advantages. Emotionally, though, the photo in the ad sure tugged hard on my sailing heart.
Told myself that if I decide that it is definitely too much for me, I will post it on Sellfar, and tell you, Joe. Although I found it difficult to commit as I would have had to, I found it equally difficult to rule it out with finality...
In a day or two the ad was gone.
Guess that I'll post this here and not in SellFar, since it is an update of the previous post (and you are looking at Tritons in particular, Joe)...
Just saw this same 1964 Triton in Baltimore for sale on eBay.
Auction ends Sunday 9 am. Current bid: US $520.00
"#677 has the original Atomic 4 engine (not running) - also outboard motor bracket as backup. Needs sails and a good cleaning. Good furler on forestay. "Winchers" on main winches. V-berth cushions ok. Decks rough but feel solid."
Thanks for the Comments Guys, Grime, Your are correct, i am willing to do some work on any boat i buy, but i don't want an over large project either.
Jim, The de-lamination problem is a big deal for sure , if it was a few small patches no biggy, but a good chunk the fordeck would need redone, couple that with the interior work as well and i don't think I'm up to the task.
Also, the boat just didn't do it for me, there was no spark to it i guess, I'm pretty practical bout things ,but there needs to something a bit more than practicality in this i think.
Also, I'm not just limiting my self to Triton's, Albin Vega's, are nice and the Tarten 27 is up there as well, i keep looking at boats all the time, found a boat called the Halman Horizon 27, that i absolutely Love the looks of, just not many of them around. i will keep looking and eventually find what I'm looking for this was a good learning experience for me i have a better idea of what to look for now for problems.
Quote from: Cyric30 on February 10, 2015, 09:27:21 PM
Also, the boat just didn't do it for me, there was no spark to it i guess, I'm pretty practical bout things ,but there needs to something a bit more than practicality in this i think.
I definitely get a very appreciative feeling when looking at the photos of the Triton, but I believe that it comes from its cockpit being so similar to my Typhoon (also by Alberg), and how much fun I had on that boat, how well it performed and kept its crew comfortable and safe. I believe that it took much time and experience on the boat for that to grow.
In contrast, the twin keel boat that I tried this summer looked quite salty, but was profoundly disappointing in the way that it handled, performed, and especially its motion and comfort. I decided that it was far too large and that it did not have the motion comfort that I expected from its 27 foot/8500 lb size. In many respects, the Typhoon out shined it, even though only one quarter its displacement. So looks can be deceiving, and fleeting, but seaworthiness and good motion comfort grow more important over time, and emotional connection and appreciation will follow.
Hello All.
its been awhile since i posted, and since the forum also has been a bit quiet, i thought i would try to jump-start something.
First off i haven't gave up, im just working and saving money up right now, hopefully by the end of the year i'll have a chunk saved up and can get serious.
Also been looking at more boats that i previously dismissed or didn't know about
Really grown fond of the Bristol 29/30 of late, seems a good boat
A few more ive found and considering, but aren't on any good old boat list are
Pearson Wanderer: can anyone give me a reason why the Smaller Triton, and the larger Vanguard are considered good small offshore choices and the Wanderer is not? im truly curious.
Contest 31: European built boat that seems tough as nails and is heavy built, also has a good reputation across the pond,can be found in the states occasionally
Yankee 30: Cousin to the Tartan 30, i really like the mid-engine setup on these boats,
Feel free to drop in talk, pros, cons, just say high, we've let the forum get a bit boring :)
Hello All
Just Back From Vacation
Me and a Buddy went down to Tampa for some R&R and to look at some boats as well.
Looked over several Catalina's and Hunters, i was not impressed by them really while roomy they just felt meah (which i guess they are) but they just didn't do it for me.
Looked at 2 tartan 27s 1 was a Yawl and the other was a 27-2. the Yawl was a basket case and wet supposedly guy had everything to redo it but couldn't look at it cause he was away, even with it on a trailer it was to much money and to much work IMHO.
The 27-2 was nicer. at least it felt like it had some room. and wouldn't have needed much work, kept it in mind as a definite possibility.
Also looked at a Nordica 20, which is darn cute little boat, and darn if it if it had been a bit bigger it might have came home with me, just not enough room for 2 ppl.
Looked at a Irwin 10/4 very roomy boat for the size, 10' beam on a 24' boat also had a bowsprit so its total length would be like 26' or so, boat needed a few things, but overall i think i liked the boat enough to at least add it to my possibles list just wondered how it would sail being that wide and tubby, but really not a bad little boat. build quality seemed better than hunters or Catalina's although ive read Irwins whern't to well built either.
And being as we where time limited we couldn't see everything unfortunately, but we did make the trip to look a a Westerly Centaur, and ive got to say this boat out of all them impressed me the most, while the design isnt much in the looks department, and this boats pretty plain to look at as well, what did impress me was this boat was dry, and i mean bone dry inside there was not a drop of water anywhere and while the boat needs some cleaning and some work inside it impressed me the most of everything ive looked at, this was an "A" layout which isnt as common and it makes one of the V births a bit of fun to get into, is a side galley, but so is the common B layout. gentleman who owned it redone the exterior 2 years ago and only launched it last year. unfortunately the inboards gone but it had a 15HP outboard off the back, but he said he kept the stuff to put an inboard back if someone wanted. inside need some work its a bit unkempt, but not filthy at least, didn't smell bad like some the others. took a few picks will post them for input.
P.S. i dont know why some thes pics is sideways there not that way on my PC.?
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Just sent PM
missed on of OB
Seems to me that is the boat for you. Jump on it, afore someone else does... 8)