sailFar.net

Cruisin' Threads => sailFar.net Discussion => Topic started by: s/v Faith on February 14, 2008, 01:18:31 PM

Title: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: s/v Faith on February 14, 2008, 01:18:31 PM
Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.

  I thought a thread might be useful to discuss prejudice as it relates to Sailors of small boats.  Believing that prejudice is a 2 way street, I also would like to discuss ideas on prevention of prejudice against small boat Sailors (&Sailors in general).

  A couple of incidents / policies got me thinking about this issue over the last several months of living aboard and cruising.  I know some of the reasons for this prejudice are simple economics and may not be preventable.  For instance, the dockage on a 50' slip boat is always going to be more profitable when filled with a 50' boat then with a 30' boat.

When Rose and I pulled into the Charleston we looked at a few options for our stay.  We prefer to anchor but wanted to shower and do some laundry.  While a dingy dock friendly marina might have worked well for us we accepted that we might have to stay a night in a marina to do what we wanted. I first haled Charleston municipal marina.  The cordial tone of the discussion changed abruptly when they asked our length. On the radio replied by saying their minimum charge was for a 35' boat.  We later learned that their dingy policy was also less then accommodating with a 'per use' charge for the use of the dock and no services (shower, head, trash or water) included with the use of the dock.

  We called the marina next door, and were informed that their 'charter' did not allow them to accept boats of less then 35'.

  We noticed that some kind of reception at Spanish Cay marina in the Abaco's. 

Things we have done to reinforce the positive view of smaller boats;

  We do not often stay in marinas, but when we do some things we do are;

~ accept (or even suggest) placement in a smaller slip.  Marinas are understandably less then excited to give up a large slip for a small boat.  We once tied to the end of a dock at Sea Gate marina on Adams creek, and a couple of times we have agreed to spend the night on the last few feet at the end of a fuel dock.  Once in the Abaco's (Black sound, Other Shores Yacht Club) we even tied up to an unused side of the dingy dock.  It allowed the marina to rent the space on the face docks to larger boats, and the height of the dingy dock actually made it easier to get Peter ashore.

Be a good citizen.  I like to think that we are pretty easy 'guests' for a marina.  We usually dock and get underway without assistance, we clean up after ourselves (and our dog) and try to be generaly easy to get along with.  We try not to let the 'vagabond' look get out of hand while in the marina (hanging laundry, using tarps as sunshades). 

Make sure to tell small boat friendly facilities that you appreciate them on a few occasions I have mentioned this web site, or presented sailfar stickers as the 'small boat seal of approval'.

What have you experienced or done about this issue?

 
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Lynx on February 14, 2008, 02:22:38 PM
The marinas that I have been to have not been a problem but some have a mininum charge. After I tell them my draft, it is not a problem. Sometimes I am almost to big for there slips like on the Atlantic side of Key Largo.

Dinghying to shore I always check the cruising guides. My main problem has been with the snobbs. I just don't put up with it anymore. I would rather be told to leave. Well worth it.

I should add a note that anchoring out in Punta Gorda Marina, Fl is considered by the locals as being bad, deadbeats. Although the bridge height is low and a lot of small boats there. I would not want to go around them again.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Captain Smollett on February 14, 2008, 03:12:10 PM
Ditto the experience at Charleston City Marina.  To put it bluntly, that place sucks.  $5 per day for use of the dingy dock, and that buys you absolutely NOTHING except a place to tie up the dink.  The week we were there, I never saw more than one other dingy at the dock at a time, so it's not like their dingy dock is in THAT high demand.

What peeved me more than anything there was the attitude when I asked to buy gasoline or worse, dump/pump-out the holding tank.  Plus, no showers.  I just don't get it.  They were turning down business - we would have PAID for our gasoline, pump-out and showers.  But all that is a business desision - okay, fair.  That does not explain the snotty attitude you get from their staff just because you are anchored out having not wanted to pay a premium minimum slip fee.

The other place I've gotten some attitude is, believe it or not, other sailors.  It sometimes gets a little old to me to "justify" why I wanted/now own an Alberg 30 for extended cruising.  It was OUR choice to make, but some other "sailors" act like we are nuts to have not chosen a boat at least 45' LOA with 110V (microwave, TV, etc), pressurized running hot and cold water and a million dollars worth of "systems."  I think to SOME extent, in SOME sailors' minds, your "status" is measured by the gadgetry you display - the toys you have.  To me, a sailor's status is measured by years on the water and more importantly, miles under the keel.  Gadgets don't buy experience, but I digress.

So, I think it is fair to say there is at least a LITTLE bit of discrimination/snobbery within the sailing community against smaller, leaner and meaner KISS boats.  I guess that's true of any over-broad group like "sailors."

To offer the contrast, I have encountered a few places that were right-on with smaller boats.  They did not turn down the few extra bucks by sticking a little boat whereever they had a few feet of dock open, and they treated us like any other paying customer was treated.  Specifically, Georgetown Landing Marina (Georgetown, SC) and Hilton Head Harbor (NOT Harbour Town!!) Marina (Hilton Head, SC) were two where we slipped our 18 footer.

In the case of Hilton Head Harbor, though we did have a regular short slip (30 ft, iirc), they charged us less than the advertised rate per foot for a week, then added the 8th day free and we got to use their launch ramp for free.  We did not use electricity and our boat was clean and 'well kept' -  we tried to maintain as low a profile on the dock as possible to show respect back to such gracious hosts.  So, if you are traveling on the ICW near Hilton Head, I can give me thumbs up to HHM, just East of HWY 278 bridge right at Daymark 20.

In the end, all we can do is "keep our own decks clear."  We'll remain under the radar; more importantly, we won't give marina's a REASON to hate us for having a small boat.  I guess it's all you can do sometimes.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Gus on February 14, 2008, 03:22:37 PM
come to sail in NC, I have never had a problem because I sail a 22 :)
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: CapnK on February 14, 2008, 03:53:06 PM
Good idea for a thread, Craig, and good points you make.

The marina I am at - the aforementioned Georgetown Landing Marina, Georgetown, SC, ICW MM 401-ish - is a small-boat-friendly marina, as long as you don't arrive during a big fishing tournament. ;D All the dock space gets used up during those.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Oldrig on February 14, 2008, 08:36:04 PM
This is indeed a great topic. Thanks for starting it.

In New England, I have found marinas with minimum charges (often I pay the same for my 25-footer as I would pay for a 30- or 35-footer), but I've generally been treated well once I took a slip.

But there's another aspect to this problem--and it all boils down to economics.

Boatyards are also treating smaller boats with increasing disdain, since they can earn a lot more on a boat that requires the services of five or six employees per hour (at $85/hour/person) than one that is basically just stored there.

In my case, my family has used the same yard for 30 years or more. Admittedly, much of that time the yard merely launched and hauled the boats, but for the past four years, with a keelboat, I've used the yard for storage, engine repair and bottom painting.

Every year, my boat gets moved to a more obscure corner of the yard, and every year my boat gets put into the water later than the previous season. And I know that I'm not alone: Smaller boats and boats whose owners do most of the work themselves just don't get the same kind of service that 40-foot-plus Hinckleys and the like receive.

It bothers me--but I understand that if I were running a business, I'd give preferece to the customers who pay more.

Some people, like me, simply cannot keep their boats in their own front yards, and for us, we have to pay higher and higher storage fees every year, and find our boats pushed into obscure corners of the yards.

OK, now I've vented! Thanks.

--Joe
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Captain Smollett on February 14, 2008, 10:47:10 PM
Quote from: Oldrig on February 14, 2008, 08:36:04 PM

In my case, my family has used the same yard for 30 years or more. Admittedly, much of that time the yard merely launched and hauled the boats, but for the past four years, with a keelboat, I've used the yard for storage, engine repair and bottom painting.

...

It bothers me--but I understand that if I were running a business, I'd give preferece to the customers who pay more.


From a business standpoint, and as a (small) business owner, I cannot agree that this make good business sense.

My reasoning is thus: they charge you basically the same "rate" as any other boat - for the services you are using.  You are using the lift and paying a per foot (or per ton) on that; you are storing the boat, and paying for that as well.

But those guys who are NOT working on YOUR boat are available to work on ANOTHER boat.  In other words, you have not COST them money ... you've given them MORE.  They get to employ those guys working $cool_fancy_big boat and STILL charge you your fees.  What's to complain about?  (**)

Sure, in terms of absolute $$, you don't pay as much.  But you are not using as many of their resources, either.  That makes those resources available for them to sell to someone else.  Business wise, I see this as a winning siutation.

(**) This analysis assumes the yard is not maxed out in terms of boat storage.  If they are bumping those big boats that earn more $$, then of course your point makes more sense.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: AdriftAtSea on February 15, 2008, 08:39:43 AM
The other problem I see with this...is that if you and your family have been a customer for 30 years, they should have some respect for the loyalty and length of time your family has done business with them, if nothing else. A lot of companies seem to forget that loyalty goes both ways... from the customer to the company, and from the company to the customer.   
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Godot on February 16, 2008, 11:30:37 AM
For seasonal services it would seem to be in most yards long term best interest to treat small boat sailors well.  After all, a large hunk of small boat sailors eventually become big boat sailors.  Building customer loyalty at the entry end would seem to make a lot of sense.

My current marina was actually pretty happy to sell me a slip.  It was small and in a difficult space due to some heavy silting from a hurricane a few years ago.  It's tricky to get my 24 footer in and out at low tide.  Good for them. 

Soon I'll move to Maryland Marina (closer to home and cheaper) where they don't have a slip small enough to fit me in nicely.  So they upgraded me to a bigger slip for no additional cost until a smaller one opened up.  They may lose money in the short term; but they seem to like small boaters and where nothing but outrageously friendly to me.  Surprisingly (to me) I believe they are the largest marina in Maryland.  I wasn't expecting that kind of reception.  They've earned my friendship.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Oldrig on February 17, 2008, 07:07:54 PM
Capt. Smollett and Dan:

Your analyses are correct--and it seems like what the yard is doing is the same thing that is ruining the recreational boatbuilding and selling industry right now: Following the model first established by the Detroit automakers, they're trying to make up in higher per-unit costs what they're losing in increased sales.

Look what this model did to Detroit!

New sailboat production dropped by more than 5 percent over last year; overall boat registrations (mostly powerboats, heh-heh) are down more than 15 percent, builders are going bankrupt, laying off workers, etc. etc.

If yard owners try to follow that model, they'll end up in the same pickle as the American car industry. I certainly hope my yard sees the light, because they're really very nice people, and they know boats.

Forgive the second rant: I work for a boating magazine, and our advertising has fallen off so badly that I'm going to be put from full-time to half-time as of March 1. I keep telling myself that I'll have more time to spend on my boat, and I was thinking about strategies for easing into retirement (I'm 60). But, frankly, I only hope I can continue to afford to keep a sailboat.

The so-called "boating industry" is imploding--and it should.

But that means that those of us who continue to boat should be more valuable to those who depend on us for their incomes.

Sorry for the blowup. Now back to our regular program.

--Joe
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Norm on February 17, 2008, 08:30:12 PM
Hello all:
I guess all us little boat sailors have the same gripe. 

My boat yard manager friends tell me that it is all about money.  Yards are taxed and regulated to death.  Big boats are big billable hours... fixing all those accessories.  Little-boat yards are turning into condos.  A grim reality.

If only little boats would over-accessorize and then spend hours, nay, days, in the yard having the stuff fixed.

A couple of days ago I was up in Marina Cay off Tortola's East End.  While the charter guests went ashore to check email, call the office, buy provisions, etc.  a little Albin Vega (my idea of a really cool boat) arrived and dropped the hook.  I took a picture and will try to post it.  It is the first small cruiser I have seen since arriving in November.  Hope I see them around and get to stop in for a chat.  A beautifully tricked out pocket cruiser.

On another topic... tongue in cheek... anyone want the inside info on sailing 42-45 foot catamarans?  Lovely engines!  And that flying bridge is just to die for.....  Did I say that?

Best, Norman
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: AdriftAtSea on February 17, 2008, 09:21:45 PM
Norm-

Welcome back...are you down in the Caribbean or up in Beantown?? How are Averisera and Cubemonkey??

Dan
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Shipscarver on February 18, 2008, 12:58:56 PM
Stateside, IMHO, the problem is lack of voice. That unheard voice should be strong and well heard in every state touched by the ICW, the Great Lakes, and all areas touching inland lakes and rivers. The ASA, and other sailing/cruising organizations should be in a leadership role here, focusing a combined effort to generate political pressure, community self-interest, school programs to build interest and a committed participant base, and to generate effective lobbing at every level, but . . .
So, how do we kick these organizations in the logistic derriere, and create effective pressure that can, albiet slowly, improve the situation ?
   
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Mr. Fixit on February 18, 2008, 02:32:25 PM
I wonder what the current trend of the financial condition in this country will bring. Will recession bring out admiration for small boat owners that kept their expenses reasonable, or will the animosity increase. One thing for sure if business drops off, we may be more welcome at the docks!!!
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: nick on February 20, 2008, 02:18:39 PM
I must be one of the few, but whenever I turn up into the marina, the marina staff don't bat an eyelid, and in crowded places I can always squeeze in - I'm probably a money spinner because they can't actually fit any more boats in, except teeny ones like mine!

Also, people on the dock look at my little boat and instantly want to talk to me about how I managed to get so far alone in such a small boat!

In fact, I can't recall one negative comment or experience by having a small boat... Maybe that's Europe?
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: mrbill on February 20, 2008, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: Mr. Fixit on February 18, 2008, 02:32:25 PM
I wonder what the current trend of the financial condition in this country will bring. Will recession bring out admiration for small boat owners that kept their expenses reasonable, or will the animosity increase. One thing for sure if business drops off, we may be more welcome at the docks!!!

The folks at my local West Marine are moaning about the decrease in business, even after adjusting for the season. Of course their business is heavily oriented towards power boats, and they figure the price of gas and upkeep is finally starting to have an affect. Similarly, at the recent New England Boat Show in Boston...also very heavily power boat oriented or big sailboats...all the boat dealers were complaining about the lack of traffic and interest. I suspect there will be more boats stored for the summer in the boatyard rather than pay the expense of putting them in the water. It will be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: s/v Faith on February 22, 2008, 09:26:11 PM
Nick,

 
QuoteIn fact, I can't recall one negative comment or experience by having a small boat... Maybe that's Europe?

  I am glad to hear this.  I suspect that a lot of these issues are related to country specific issues (bleeding over into the Caribbean... )  I remember when Zen was discussing sailing in Japan that as I recall these issues were non-existent.

Mr Bill,

  I think that the downturn has a lot to do with the (perceived) economic state.  I will admit wishing just earlier today that the price of fuel would cut down on the number of power boats on the water...
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: s/v Faith on February 27, 2008, 06:03:22 PM
Another thing Rose and I thought of the other day.....

  Smile and wave.     ;D

I was warned that when we left NC, we would not see others many continue the habit we have of waving at the boats we pass.  Fortunately, we have not found that to be true, although we have been snubbed quite a bit lately.  Probably has to do with the number of boats on the water down here.

  Rose and I wave to pretty much everyone.  If they are in a small boat it we often try to get close enough to say hi as well.  We wave at the other boats whatever they are.

  While it is easy to be preoccupied with navigation or other pressing matters we do notice that we can often predict who will not wave back. (no utility in going into that).

  We always make sure to wave to those on the shore... especially children.  Much like the duty to dockwakers, it just seems to us to be the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Frank on February 27, 2008, 06:11:54 PM
not much to do with 'boaters'...but a lot to do with 'life' ..hussle-bussle etc....and yes.. smiling and waving.In Green Turtle-Man Of War-Hope Town...people 'look' at you..then smile and wave..or say 'good morning'. Here in Marsh Harbour with its traffic, hussle and seeming 'rush'...I often go ignored even after smiling and waving. The 2 seem to go hand in hand. "slow and simple= enjoy life and people"....busy = "what people...I'm in a hurry with LOTS on my mind"
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: s/v Faith on March 07, 2009, 12:42:21 AM
I wonder if some of the marinas / facilities that may have been less accommodating to small boats may be more interested in the business now?
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: chris2998 on March 07, 2009, 03:45:51 AM
Captain Smollett

good write ups I have a guy I work with I mentioned i wanted a sailboat for liveaboard he said oh you want a 45 footer I was like what? are you smoking crack? i regret ever telling him seems like every few days he's like hey there's this 40 footer at the marina near my boat for sale I'm like no I told you I want around a 30 ft what the **** I admit I was DUMB at first thinking bigger is better no if I own something that freaking big I'll be working till i die just to pay to keep the thing at the dock. Sorry just venting here LOL but really good write up I always thought all people who were into sailing were snobby as all heck get out, I'm happy to be hearing that isn't the case. good thread

Chris
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: mrb on March 07, 2009, 10:23:16 PM
This attitude of bigger is better is in all aspects of American society today.

Concerning boats, there are many mega yachts in Pacific N.W. but last time We were in the San Juan's all the we were never charged for launch dockage and showers and laundrymats were for all to use.  I think it was Friday Harbor even had short term dockage free.  First come basis.  We stayed in Inner Harbor Victoria and they had very large motor vessel move so they could fit us in beside another sail boat then the mv moved back into his space.  They stack them 3 and 4 deep whatever it takes to get everyone in.  You may have to walk across a 40ftr to actually reach dock.  We just asked permission if owner was aboard and had some extra large dungeness crabs we gave them. 

When we left they had boats on outside move so we could get out.  Every one Happy.

I agree with its the pace of life which contributes to rudeness today, along with a lot of self important people who forget where they come from.
melvin
Title: Re: Size fees
Post by: Amgine on March 10, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
One of the interesting things about dockage fees is that when the price is linear ($$$ per foot), the profit margin goes down the larger the slip is. This is because larger slips are also wider, so fewer slips for a given amount of surface area, and tend to be in deeper water which increases the initial construction and ongoing maintenance costs.

However, it's easy to think of the large single payment from a 72' boat, rather than the six payments from 25' boats (twice as much) that could be fit in the same space. The reality is that McDonalds is going to sell more burgers and make more money than the best steakhouse will make on their prime rib.

How to improve the image of small boats? Thank-you postcards go a long ways. You can get a hundred printed up pretty cheap with a picture of your small boat, and they're great to send a heartfelt thanks that's going to get tacked up on the wall for years to come. They also are handy to invite people for sundowners, to send a note to family back home (with a great stamp from far-away!), and to yacht clubs and sailing magazines to brag just a bit. In these days of e-mail and text messages, even a single sentence sent through the post has an inordinately large impact. When was the last time you got anything but junkmail and bills?
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Bubba the Pirate on March 10, 2009, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: Amgine on March 10, 2009, 04:53:04 PM

How to improve the image of small boats? Thank-you postcards go a long ways. You can get a hundred printed up pretty cheap with a picture of your small boat, and they're great to send a heartfelt thanks that's going to get tacked up on the wall for years to come. They also are handy to invite people for sundowners, to send a note to family back home (with a great stamp from far-away!), and to yacht clubs and sailing magazines to brag just a bit. In these days of.....

I REALLY like this idea.  Thanks and Grog to ya! 

Todd
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: keelbolts on April 16, 2009, 11:11:05 AM
For all but the last year or so of my twenty-some years on the water I owned & sailed the 32'. African mahogany sloop Favona.  If anybody thot they were going to impress me with their big boat, I just told them that their boat was ugly and probably had the windward ability of a garbage barge and offered to race them, upwind, for pink slips.  Nobody took me up on it.  Just as well, I couldn't afford the upkeep on all the boats I would own now.  I still have Favona, but I picked up a Westerly Pageant about a year ago so I could go to all the places I couldn't get into with Favona's 6' draft.  I've gone from a small yacht to a floating Winnebago and I'm loving it.  Several years ago I crewed on a boat to Bermuda.  She had every possible bell & whistle and was a constant worry to her owner.  I'll take small and/or simple everytime.

As for marina's not appreciating small boats, I believe you'll see that change, in a big way, too soon.  The economy is in free fall and it won't be long before the marinas that survive will be rolling out the red carpet to an arriving Sunfish.  Two years from now, you are going to see people all but giving away 45' and 50' boats to get out from under the slip fees.  I'm worried about how many marinas and boatyards will end up going belly up.  One of the reasons why I chose my Westerly is so that I can run it into 3' of water & do her bottom while the tide's out. Let's face it, if you're not living aboard, your boat is a luxury.  We are entering a period where luxuries of 50' will be possible for very few people.   We could do a whole thread on whether or not you're going to want to be seen pulling into town on a 50' yacht.  Can you say target?

On a more proactive note,  it seems to me that there should be a section of this site devoted to listing small boat friendly marinas.  Maybe the forumites could work together to create a short, but informative questionaire to be sent to marinas.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: AdriftAtSea on April 16, 2009, 04:11:01 PM
Welcome to Sailfar Keelbolts. 

Unfortunately, the media hasn't helped the situation much... the media, for the most part, seems to think that it is both unsafe and difficult to sail long distances in anything less than 40' LOA.  What they seem to forget is that people have been sailing small boats for a long time, and that it is only in the past 20 years that the size of boats has slowly crept upwards.

One thing I've noticed is that as the size of the boats has gone up, the average seamanship has gone down.  This may be partially due to a lot of the larger boats being basically floating condos that were bought as status symbols by people with more income than sailing experience and were bought for the lifestyle, rather than to be actually sailed.

If you look at a lot of the newer boats, especially the higher production volume boats, you'll see an emphasis on open interior layouts with huge double berths, high head room, and a fair bit of automation that is IMHO fairly unnecessary, were the boat designed properly.   These boats, while very pretty, don't have the stowage, the handholds or decent sea berths to make a serious passage in comfort and safety. 

I remember one story Norm and Elizabeth (cubemonkey) were relating a couple years ago about a passage on a fairly big production sailboat that ended with some injuries due to the open layouts and lack of handholds.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: maxiSwede on April 16, 2009, 04:43:45 PM
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on April 16, 2009, 04:11:01 PM
Welcome to Sailfar Keelbolts. 

Unfortunately, the media hasn't helped the situation much... the media, for the most part, seems to think that it is both unsafe and difficult to sail long distances in anything less than 40' LOA.  What they seem to forget is that people have been sailing small boats for a long time, and that it is only in the past 20 years that the size of boats has slowly crept upwards.

One thing I've noticed is that as the size of the boats has gone up, the average seamanship has gone down.  This may be partially due to a lot of the larger boats being basically floating condos that were bought as status symbols by people with more income than sailing experience and were bought for the lifestyle, rather than to be actually sailed.

If you look at a lot of the newer boats, especially the higher production volume boats, you'll see an emphasis on open interior layouts with huge double berths, high head room, and a fair bit of automation that is IMHO fairly unnecessary.   These boats, while very pretty, don't have the stowage, the handholds or decent sea berths to make a serious passage in comfort and safety. 

I remember one story Norm and Elizabeth (cubemonkey) were relating a couple years ago about a passage on a fairly big production sailboat that ended with some injuries due to the open layouts and lack of handholds.

Adrift - well spoken and a grog to you!   ;D
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: AdriftAtSea on April 16, 2009, 06:54:31 PM
Thank you... :)  The people who want a status symbol and the status owning a YACHT brings, love having a big open salon and a huge open cockpit, since they're excellent for entertaining... but not so useful when sailing in crappy conditions. :) But, it isn't a problem for most of them, since all they're really looking for is a floating condo... :)
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: keelbolts on April 17, 2009, 11:41:12 AM
Thank you for the welcome AdriftAtSea.  I guess I've been lurking around here so long that I didn't realize that that was my first contribution. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Size fees
Post by: Captain Smollett on June 17, 2014, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: Amgine on March 10, 2009, 04:53:04 PM

How to improve the image of small boats? Thank-you postcards go a long ways. You can get a hundred printed up pretty cheap with a picture of your small boat, and they're great to send a heartfelt thanks that's going to get tacked up on the wall for years to come.


This is an EXCELLENT idea, and I regret I have never implemented it.  I think I will this week, and send some to some of the places we visited in Florida last week.

Speaking of the Florida trip and "small boat bias," we had an interesting comment from a fellow as we pulled into the parking lot of a store.

He saw the boat on the trailer and commented, to both his wife and mine (!!), "That's about the perfect size boat.  That's exactly what we need."

I have to confess that this was very gratifying to hear.

Trailer boats in general have a lot to recommend them (even as "cruisers"), but even in that realm, there's a 'bigger is better' mindset that too-often is prevalent. 

It was very nice to hear a guy just see her for what she is, and where she could take him (and his family).  I wish I could have had a few minutes to talk to him in more detail, but by the time I found a parking spot, he was not around.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Kettlewell on June 18, 2014, 11:26:40 AM
I think the big-boatitis that infects the market is more a function of a lack of people starting when they are young in smaller boats like sailing dinghies and then working their way up. When your first experience sailing is in an 8-foot pram everything after that seems like a "big boat." Picture a couple of retirees looking to buy their first cruising boat with not much experience. First, the only boats they will see, for the most part, at the boat show are big expensive ones, and second their entire life they have lived ashore in houses or large apartments. The interior of a 45-footer looks tiny to them, and they want to be "comfortable" in retirement. You see the same exact thing in retirement homes and RV sales. I can't imagine driving those ginormous RVs that seem to fill the highways now. My father was invited to a friend's retirement home custom built for a couple with 12 bedrooms and more bathrooms than that--they wanted plenty of room for guests. It isn't just boats.
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: Jim_ME on June 18, 2014, 08:05:11 PM
I would also add that it is those who have not had any experience cruising that are especially vulnerable to this "bigger-is-better" marketing, as you say, because the closest thing in their experience is a house, so it is easy to push the idea that the boat that is closest to the house, and with as many house-like features, will be the best one. When appealing to a knowledge and experience vacuum, marketers can get away with this.

When I talk to people who grew up in a sailing/cruising family, they seem almost universally inoculated against such campaigns. I think about John's children, for example...nobody is ever going to be able to tell them that they need a 45-foot sailboat to enjoy cruising.

I think that this also applies to simplicity. My friend with a cruising family tradition, owned a spartan Vertue 25. He liked to bring much of his water in jugs. Not many moving parts, or much to go wrong with them. Gravity being fairly reliable. Can clean them easily and see how you're doing. Crush them when they're empty to save room.

They were a family of modest means, so there was a strict cost-benefit test applied to everything that came on board. when you maintain-it-yourself, there was an equal PITA-benefit test. After a couple generations of experience doing this, you have a fairly well-developed culture and sense for what brings success and happiness (and safety...which is probably and important part of the former).  :)

Anyway, their whole tradition centered on time-tested KISS principles, and they grew up with those expectations, and saw the benefits first hand.

[Edit: Since my earlier post/article reference on house size may have been somewhat off this topic, yet a good separate topic to continue to pursue, I took the liberty to split that part of my reply (and the replies to it) off and merged it with an existing thread on that topic. http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=3736.msg47864#msg47864 ]
Title: Re: Small boat prejudice: experience, causes & prevention.
Post by: DarrenC on June 30, 2014, 01:34:10 PM
There is no problem with prejudice at my home marina, which is essentially a private cruising club run by an older gentleman on his own property mostly because he loves the boating life and wants to be around it. We have a half dozen or so of us "small" boats, about the same in 30-35 footers, a few 36+ and several powerboats. For the most part we are a friendly and social group regardless of vessel type or size.

Where i experience a personal prejudice against larger boats and inconsiderate sailors in general is when it comes to transients. Our little cove is an extremely popular destination and the marina charges a modest $1.50/ft for a slip or $1.00/ft for a mooring. While the sub-30 footers dont hesitate to take advantage (often joining in the social gatherings as well) larger boats inevitably opt for the hook. Completely their prerogative,  however what irritates me to no end is how many of them have the sheer audacity to bring their dinghys ashore on private property to stretch their legs, let their dog do its business, dump their garbage or even try to use the showers without so much as checking in at the office. If it wasnt so pathetic it might actually be amusing how when confronted they try to play dumb or even act indignant.  Having grown up on power cruisers , i have many times heard sailors referred to as freeloaders.  When we feel we are being looked upon or treated in that manner, we have these a-holes to thank for it.