Try this for a first attempt ... All specific details are, of course, not set in stone (start, finish, date, etc...).
A Huge Thanks (& Grog, of course!) to Adam, for writing 99.9% of this so well, that I could only add some inconsequential extras... 8) ;D
The Scoot
scoot (skōōt)
v. scoot•ed, scoot•ing, scoots
v.intr. To go suddenly and speedily; hurry.
A proposed race, that's not a race, to the Bahamas. The primary objective is the exercise of good seamanship and the safe arrival of participating boats. There are no entry fees, no inspections, and minimal rules. The Scoot is an exercise of the independent judgment and good seamanship of the individual skippers in the participation of an event with a common goal. It is only nominally a race, as in any two boats heading in the same direction are always racing. We don't handicap (PHRF). We don't have prizes. We don't have protests. Seamanship should never be sacrificed for a better finish time.
Qualified Boats: Everyman Sailboats that fall under the SailFar Philosophy, typically 20-30' LOD, Multi-hull or mono hull.
Two Crew classes: Single handed and short handed (two crew)
Start Date: 3rd week in April, 2010, 9:00 AM
There will likely be some preliminary challenges recommended for Scooters to participate in prior to the Scoot. These will be done at a Local and Regional level, before the start of the East Coast-based nature of the Scoot. (We would be interested in the creation of a Scoot West, as well!).
Start Point: Off of Beaufort, NC, likely from the Lookout Bight area.
Finish Line: San Salvador, Bahamas or Eleuthera, final destination yet to be determined, and totally dependent on suitability for our purposes and in the spirit of the other considerations for the Scoot. {Anyone have charts? Or other input as to which destination might be more suitable? It will need to have designated Ports of Entry.} Costs of Entering and other such legalities will be assumed by the individual skippers.
Distance: approximately 650 NM
Entry Fee: $0.00
Deadline to Enter: The day of the race.
Deadline to drop out: The entry fee will be refunded if you drop out before the first day of the race. ;D
Minimum Equipment List: At the discretion of the Skipper ... No official inspection.
Time Limit: Before the sun burns out
Minimum Age of Skipper: 18 (ie; legally responsible for themselves)
Use of engines: This is nominally a race, so the use of an engine for propulsion would go against the spirit of the event.
Other Regulations: The Rules of the Sea
Handicaps: None.
Prizes: At this time there will be no prizes for participation, winning, placing, or completing the Scoot. It might be nice if a volunteer Prize Committee was formed to arrange some type of recognition, provided any expenses where handled voluntarily and not financed by the Entry Fee ($0).
Race Committee: Anyone want to volunteer at the start or finish line? If not, starts and finishes will be recorded by individual skippers and reported to a coordinator for record keeping. This report would, of course, be voluntary like everything else; but the only way we would be able to provide any official recognition. {Perhaps a digital photo of a GPS display, if the skipper elects to have such electronic contrivances aboard...}
The Organizing Committee (at present, S/V Godot and CapnK) will be formed by a small handful of volunteers whose only job will be to set the basic parameters of the Scoot, and make available whatever information they have regarding the event to race participants and spectators; probably via a web page or email. They have no responsibility what-so-ever for the well being of the participants, the distribution of information not already available to them, or even information they have but forgot about, notification of family members or the Coast Guard, or anything else. They are volunteers who will do the best job they can, but will accept no responsibility what-so-ever for the outcome.
Skippers are asked to report their status whenever practical, especially on arrival at the finish line, if they retire from the Scoot, or otherwise will be delayed in arriving. This is to avoid unnecessary worry and the possibility of an unnecessary Search and Rescue. Success will be defined as NOT having to call the Coast Guard.
The preliminary challenges mentioned would be something along the lines of:
- Sometime this year, each skipper who plans to participate should go out on their boat on the water, for some period of time (I'd recommend a minimum of 48 hrs, 72 might be better), nonstop, and without anchoring. The purpose of this is to serve as a reality check. :)
- Sometime in '09, participants nearby each other (within say 2-3 days of others), will get together for a mini, mock Scoot: meeting somewhere in the middle, and Scooting back home.
As stated, the purpose of these exercises is to serve to make Scoot skippers fully aware of the realities of what they will be getting in to, prior to heading out from Beaufort and across the Gulf Stream. :)
Great stuff CapnK !!! ;D
Hooray and Grog on ya from my side of the pond... ;D ;D ;D
The Scoot Nouveau has arrived !!! vive the new vintage of a wonderful idea :D :D
It should be fun, as well as a challenge, and will also be a great way to put some faces to names when we finally meet! :)
Cool. Sorry I cannot take my boat as it is a coastal cruiser but I may be in for crewing.
Hmmmm....I guess now that I have a trailer I don't have this big mass of land to use as an excuse. ;)
I guess I will have to see how the next year goes regarding work on the boat and gas prices. :)
Thought I could hear the sound of cogs whirring ;D
Sounds cool 8) Although I would have been tempted to brand it "the Sailfar Scoot" ;D....as I would guess that having a forum happy to accomadate these folks would be very useful for the participants.
IMO a good choice of start date with 2010 - hopefully give folks a good chance to hear about it and then plan / prepare for it......IMO the plan / prepare / dream is a lot of the fun (and 90% for non-participants :D).......always plenty of valid reasons why folk cannot proceed as hoped, so IMO if only a few folk end up making the trip first time then IMO not a disaster......so once the rules and destination have been agreed I would not wait for a large entry list before going public - it being a chicken and egg thing..........
Would deffo also go for a dedicated website (plus this forum).
Nearly forgot..........
.......cracking good idea on including a "shorthanded class".
On the starts, in the absence of a shorebased starter (and finisher?!), the GPS photo thing sounds a bit too heavy handed.
I would suggest that the boats registered as starters get recorded as starters even though they may not have crossed the start line at the official start time............whether or not at the starting point on set off day / time - perfectly possible for folk to get delayed enroute to the start point / have a last minute problem at the start point delaying them for a day or two.....but IMO yer do not want to exclude folk simply for being late leaving / being prudent .........and arrivals are simply taken on Trust with the accepted norm being posting a photo of self and yacht at destination. If anyone cheats, they are only cheating themselves........
James - it *is* coastal cruising - just a few hundred miles out... ;D
Tim - good idea! You could splash her here in G-town, park the rig safely at my bro's house 12 miles away, we could sail up to Beaufort together (maybe w/Smollett, or whoever else). And having your rig here would lessen the distance back for you by over 100 miles, and a big cape. :)
David - the GPS photo - is only if someone wants to. I would, it'd be easy, and what a great memento. :) Not a requirement at all.
sailFar will be donating the web-space as a personal thing from me, but isn't not an official sponsor of any sort, because I cannot be held liable for what a buncha crazy arsed small boat sailors might be doing in their spare time... ;D Besides, if someone wanted to sue me, they would be wasting their money - they'd do a lot better going to some fast food joint and scalding themselves with coffee... ;D
I figure that we can use a section of this board here for the discussion, because the setup is already done, and the things like board rules and a great team of moderators is already in place. I don't think it will strain our resources. :) (he says, crossing fingers). Maybe if it gets bigger, that might be needed, but not now I don't think...
Good point about the start. Even so, the "start time" is set more as a *goal* for the participants, than as any hard-n-fast rule. :) That is, at least as much as anything else, what the Scoot is for - it is a goal-setting/reaching tool, something to give the participants a definite date to *Get Out There* and do what they _all_ say they want to do. It gives you a reason to not have an excuse. 8)
Oh boy- wait'll Laura sees THIS thread!!!!
I have a very funny feeling we'll be on the east coast in 2010 ;D
Quote from: CharlieJ on June 21, 2008, 06:24:25 PM
Oh boy- wait'll Laura sees THIS thread!!!!
I have a very funny feeling we'll be on the east coast in 2010 ;D
...and *that* is why Adam and I thought having a double-handed class would be really cool. 8) 8) 8)
Cue... the
Faiths? Norm & Elizabeth? Anyone else? :)
Maybe we can even get Greg to come around here from their Baja hideout... ;D
Quote from: CapnK on June 21, 2008, 06:15:40 PM
James - it *is* coastal cruising - just a few hundred miles out... ;D
Hmmm, let me see what Mods I need to do. I have a few days to work it out. As long as I can get to port before that big, bad storm hits. I guess hug the USA coast and then cross over.
How many ports can we stop at along the way? ;D
Can I take a Year or 2 to get there? ::)
Well, I can guarantee I will not be going without the first mate , Mary
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10375/normal_IMG_0672.JPG)
And now for a little inspiration, Tarpum Bay, Eleuthera
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10375/normal_IMG_0076.JPG)
((CapnK Writes: Tim - that was weird. Had a devil of a time getting them to post... Maybe a software bug. But anyway - your's didn't show because you had used the Page URL, instead of the Image URL, inbetween the img tags. ANyway, works now. :) )))
Duh! Thanks
??? ??? ???
Well there was supposed to be a couple of pics in my previous post
Thank You kind sir, What did I do wrong?
OK, some pic's
Sun setting over Miami 30 miles out -
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/veenjt/GulfStreamtoMiamifromBiminiMay06.jpg)
Bimini, Bahamas 8 miles away (it was really that smooth in Late May '06)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/veenjt/BiminiMay06.jpg)
Tim, if you want to do a sailfar prescoot this next year- I can trailer my boat to San Fran Bay. Anybody else want to do a prescoot on the west coast? Or you can join me in the Salt Lake- 2 laps would be about 200 miles.
It was pointed out to me this evening by a quite experienced east coast sailor, that April just might not be THE best time to try this, weather wise. The feeling was that mid May or slightly later would be a much better time frame for getting across the stream.
Food for thought
Quote from: newt on June 21, 2008, 09:14:47 PM
Tim, if you want to do a sailfar prescoot this next year- I can trailer my boat to San Fran Bay. Anybody else want to do a prescoot on the west coast? Or you can join me in the Salt Lake- 2 laps would be about 200 miles.
We shall see, at this point when the work is done on it I plan on towing her up to the PNW for next season. But these days I let the wind decide which direction to go. ;)
Quote from: CapnK on June 21, 2008, 06:15:40 PM
sailFar will be donating the web-space as a personal thing from me, but isn't not an official sponsor of any sort........I figure that we can use a section of this board here for the discussion, because the setup is already done, and the things like board rules and a great team of moderators is already in place. I don't think it will strain our resources. :) (he says, crossing fingers). Maybe if it gets bigger, that might be needed, but not now I don't think...
Am probably being a bit thick here ;D....but in addition to using the forum are you going to add some webpages to Sailfar.net? I am thinking a good idea partly to promote the Scoot, but mainly to distil info from the Forum into an easily read place for those initially browsing / thinking? (as well as those participants with bad memories!).....over time their will be a lot of discussions and threads on this subject (from "what Kettle to buy" to "how do I get back?" :)) which is all part of the fun, but will tend to hide the stuff that it would be useful for all folk to know.
Quote
because I cannot be held liable for what a buncha crazy arsed small boat sailors might be doing in their spare time... ;D Besides, if someone wanted to sue me, they would be wasting their money - they'd do a lot better going to some fast food joint and scalding themselves with coffee... ;D
I can understand you being cautious on this one, as even without major assets to have at jeopardy to lose, yer wouldn't want to simply be on the receiving end of legal stuff.........but if this would prevent you from attaching a couple of pages to Sailfar.net itself how about doing the same on one of the free website builders / hosting sites - and simply link to it on the Sailfar frontpage / forum........for a degree of seperation from both the Sailfar.net AND the Scoot (non!) organisers could call it the "Scoot Supporters Website" - i.e. clearly
NOT run by the (Non!) organisers of the Scoot itself.
If this would still not give you enuf seperation to be comfortable with, although webtrickery is not my thing - quite happy to set up some sort of basic "Supporters Website"............as me being accross the Pond in a very small, obscure and very expensive legal jurisdiction (100% seperate from England, with some weird laws still based on old Norman law - from 1066 and all that :)) gives me great practical comfort from folk with a writ to serve..........in addition to genuinely and proveably having no connection to organising the Scoot.
Of course if you don't think a Website / some pages are needed, that is your call - and of course can always be revised in due course.......
Quote from: CharlieJ on June 21, 2008, 09:33:44 PM
It was pointed out to me this evening by a quite experienced east coast sailor, that April just might not be THE best time to try this, weather wise. The feeling was that mid May or slightly later would be a much better time frame for getting across the stream.
Food for thought
That's why we are still discussing it, and not posting hard and fast plans. Lot's of things still to iron out. Including exactly when we start, where we start, and where we finish. Hopefully we will have enough input in the next few weeks to lock it down cold.
Some issues we've been banging around ... Best time to start. Don't forget; we need to leave a decent window open to RETURN as well, ideally with a couple of weeks leeway to explore (it would be a shame to sail all the way to the Bahamas and not poke around for awhile).
Exactly WHERE to start. I think we've nailed down Beaufort, NC as the starting area (unless someone can come up with a convincing argument for someplace else? Not really looking for someplace else; but maybe you know something we don't?). The starting line is the troubling spot. My initial recommendation was "Off of Beaufort, NC, start line between Fort Mason State Park and Shackleford Banks" which is right at the COLREGS Demarcation line. A beautiful clear starting point.
(http://[quote%20author=charliej%20link=topic=1748.msg17273#msg17273%20date=1214098424)
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10231/normal_Scoot_Start.jpg)
I realized shortly afterwards, though, that this is a pretty narrow gap that might have a lot of traffic. It might not be a good place to start, especially if we get a lot of participants (with almost two years notice, anything is possible). CapnK then recommended Lookout Bight as a decent staging area (read about it here (http://www.crystalcoast.com/capelookout/CGNC/) if interested). It looks good; but I'm not sure what we would use as a starting line. I would like to keep the line reasonably short so that we can all pretty much start together. Local knowledge would be useful.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10231/normal_Lookout_Bight.jpg)
Where do we FINISH? A Bahamian destination is the plan. CapnK suggested Eluethera. I came up with San Salvador. I'm not sure either of has has enough information to suggest one over the other. Eleuthera is a little closer; but also looks a bit more crowded and difficult to me (it is in amongst several islands). San Salvador is a bit further away but might have an easier approach. They are both of ports of entry, and I think either one would work. I'm not sure what to use as a finish line, though.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10231/normal_Scoot_Bahamas.jpg)
Quote from: David_Old_Jersey on June 21, 2008, 05:57:33 PM
I would suggest that the boats registered as starters get recorded as starters even though they may not have crossed the start line at the official start time............whether or not at the starting point on set off day / time - perfectly possible for folk to get delayed enroute to the start point / have a last minute problem at the start point delaying them for a day or two.....but IMO yer do not want to exclude folk simply for being late leaving / being prudent .........and arrivals are simply taken on Trust with the accepted norm being posting a photo of self and yacht at destination. If anyone cheats, they are only cheating themselves........
That's more or less the way I feel. In order to have some structure to the Scoot perhaps we should define a DNS as not starting before the first participant arrives at the finish? Too heavy handed? How about as not starting before Half of the participants arrive? Perhaps that wouldn't allow for the possibility of more than half retiring. Start within one week? We should probably define some criteria so we don't hear of folks starting the Scoot three years later. That would kind of defeat the purpose of a community event. I don't see any reason we have to put any deadline on finishing, though. I noticed the Jester 06 Challenge had a participant finish better than a year later (he had to put in for repairs, I believe). I don't really have a problem with that.
Hmm, looks like someone has already registered 'thescoot.com'...
Wonder who that could possibly be??? ::)
(I ain't saying nuthin to nobody. ;D )
RE: departure time - I'm thinking late April/early May because:
- By then, most of the nasty northern weather/cold fronts do not penetrate this far south that often or quite as far. There will be good windows for crossing the Stream w/out having to deal w/NE's.
- At the same time, S and SW winds become more prevalent.
- Starting in June, there is a strong trend towards S's - right on the nose, for the direction we'll be heading.
- And though unlikely in June, that is also the start of the tropical storm season.
- Last, once well offshore, the Bahamas are much less likely to be on a beat.
I'll post some images from the pilotcharts here for y'all to check out.
...and here is June...
So to me, May looks best. Perhaps assemble the last week of April, and take the first good Stream-crossing window that comes...
I was a bit geographically challenged on Beaufort NC and the Bahamas, so I did a Google Map ;Dhttp://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Beaufort,+NC+&ie=UTF8&ll=31.353637,-72.421875&spn=16.808518,27.070313&z=5 (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=Beaufort,+NC+&ie=UTF8&ll=31.353637,-72.421875&spn=16.808518,27.070313&z=5)
For a starting point - what about a local restaurant / bar the night before?.....or a civilised start time in the same, around lunchtime? ;D For some a Le Mans style start ;D - for others 100% no pressure to leave the dock until they are ready (cos' they have already crossed the start line by being in position)....and avoids tryingto co-ordinate a fleet (of whatever size) on the water.....milling around wondering WTF is going on especially for folk in unfamiliar waters / unfamiliar with starting a race could be a Challenge in itself!........and when making up yer own rules, be a crying shame if yer can't include some beer ;D and would reinforce the image of the relaxed nature of the event as less about a race, and more about a Challenge (mainly against yourself).
Late Starters? I like the Jester idea of recording entries of boats and folk on their website - so entry can close when the Scoot date arrives. After a month those who have entered and not managed to cross (arrive at) the start can be requested for their intentions - I would guess that by then most will be happy to confirm they are a DNS (if they have not already advised that themselves) and the odd exception can be dealt with on a case by case basis, and after 3 months / end of the Season automatically being moved into "The Scoot Stragglers Club" :) and the main event closed.......albeit the event does not 100% "close" until the last actual starter has arrived (1 month or 1 year later)......save for the start of the next event!......or someone having reached Greenland!
Appreciate that don't want folk starting at their own conveniance, but also do not want to exclude folk with some last minute bad luck who may have spent 2 years planning for this event......and the comfort of knowing that their is flexibility may well help folk to decide to commit to entry for something that preparation could take many months / years.
Good stuff, David!
One of the reasons that Adam and I talked about using the Bight is because it would allow the skippers to get away from the shoreside distractions of "pre-leaving", before heading directly out. A chance to regroup, get rested, make sure all systems are nominal, maybe socialize within the group (again without distraction), and perhaps be able to effectively and efficiently communicate any last-minute info - like weather forecasts, intended routes, comm protocol, whatever...
There could still be, the night before the night before - a "public" get together at a pub or restaurant or something. And some hours at anchor after that might be welcome, before heading right into the Gulfstream - both it and the shipping routes are close inshore there.
All food for thought! :)
I'm a bit out of spec to "race" but I think the idea is wonderful. I would be pleased to sail down a bit early and set the finish line. The line could be between my boat (I have a big yellow battle flag that is hard to miss) and a pin (I have a big round fender I could anchor separately). Participants could take their own time if I happen to be off the boat in a beach bar or napping below. <grin>
Great idea!
I would also be happy to be of service to the committee. I could collect names of people that start and document their intentions... Perhaps hand out a favorite beverage at the beginning.. ;D
Seriously (and I can be serious) I would be willing to help, and I am already prepping my wife "I'm going honey"
Well, you could 'race' Dave - but there would have to be a handicap, of course.
Let's see...
2x LOA of most participants basically = 2x LWL (& therefore Hull Speed), so...
You just have to sail halfway there, turn around, go back to the Start, then turn around again and blow by the fleet to the Finish! ;D lol
But seriously, I don't have any any objection to larger boats going. It might be a little demoralizing to watch you drop below the horizon so fast that first day ;), but I can deal with that! :)
Newt - try subliminal messages. Make dinner, and write in the mashed 'taters or pudding, before serving it. Print out the Scoot discussion, and tape it to the wall next to that Mark Twain quote about "twenty years from now...". You know, that sort of thing!
See you at the Start! ;D
Thanks Kurt!
I am a real believer in SB/LD even though I have a longer boat -- I'd rather be the finish line.
Maybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?
sail fast, dave
Quote from: Auspicious on June 23, 2008, 04:10:42 PM
Thanks Kurt!
I am a real believer in SB/LD even though I have a longer boat -- I'd rather be the finish line.
Maybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?
sail fast, dave
That would be cool. I think we would appreciate it. Although, the finishes could stretch out over days.
-Captn K,
Now might be a good time to get some legal advice as to liability. As this would take some shekels (lawyers are not cheap ::)), it might be adviseable to ask for donations. Not much, just $10 or so for the lawyer and for phone calls etc. Just my .02 worth.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Quote from: s/v godot on June 23, 2008, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: Auspicious on June 23, 2008, 04:10:42 PMMaybe I can borrow a good digital camera from someone and capture all finishes?
That would be cool. I think we would appreciate it. Although, the finishes could stretch out over days.
Just keep me stocked with Kalik and I should be fine out there.
If I cannot go, I will DEFINITELY help out.
Lookout Bight is a MOST EXCELLENT idea for staging/start: Sheltered anchorage in most winds, plenty of room and beautiful surroundings. Starting in the Bight, you'd not have to deal with going out the actual inlet to get underway. Only tricky part MIGHT be watching for shipping traffic as you cross the lanes to head south.
Ideas for recording start times:
Cell phone call to someone playing role as "shoreside support" for the start - perhaps a marina in the area or a private citizen? Whatever time they record is "your time" over the line.
VHF call to marina/'start support boat' again with them recording the time they receive the call.
Cell phone: send a text message to someone, an organizer perhaps. Text messages are date and time stamped.
For each of these, we'd have to use the honor system for when the call is made.
These could be "options" so as to not require cell phone or VHF (per discretion of each skipper).
Quote from: Pappy Jack on June 23, 2008, 08:27:10 PM
Now might be a good time to get some legal advice as to liability.
I'm sorry, do we have to ask lawyer's opinions to go sailing together now? Is this to where we've come?
This is nothing more than an 'invitation' to go sailing. If you and I are talking on the dock, and I say, "Hey, let's take our boats out next weekend and head to Point X," should I contact a lawyer to see if I am liable for you if you agree to go sailing on your OWN boat?
If so, I think there are a LOT of afternoon/evening beer can races throughout the country that have no idea about the precarious legal position they are in.
My two cents on contacting lawyers....
That said, it might not be a bad idea to consider not calling it a race, not hinting that it might be a race or anything of that nature. As CapnK said, the goal is to finish successfully.
When I read "Challenge" in an event like this, I think of it as a shared set of personal challenges, not a challenge of one against another. Maybe that's just me.
We could say that each records start/end times "for their own purposes;" how individuals compare them at the dock on the other end is up to them.
What rating system would we be using, since some of the under 30' boats are far faster than others... :)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea
What rating system would we be using, since some of the under 30' boats are far faster than others...
Already answered:
Quote from: CapnK on June 21, 2008, 02:18:49 PM
Handicaps: None.
We are calling it a Scoot, which means, more or less, to go speedily. We carefully are not calling it a race, which implies rules and regulations and protests, and a change in focus from safely travelling to going fast at all cost.
Still, I suppose the Scoot is a race. Sort of. I would expect skippers to do their best, and for there to be some good natured, gentlemanly, competition. While it is certainly true that some boats are significantly faster than others, I would leave it up to the skippers to kind of judge themselves against the other participants. A 20' overloaded cruiser/racer mono-hull with a dirty bottom isn't going to compete with a 28' Trimaran rigged to race. But the skipper of the 20 footer might happily measure himself against a participating 24 footer.
But then, the competitive aspect is really a side bar. Primarily this is an individual challenge with skippers (and crews) competing against themselves, doing the best they can to arrive safely, and if they are personally motivated to do so, quickly.
One reason (there are several) we are not setting this up as an all out race is the Scoot would become an organizational headache (establishing entry requirements, measuring, fees, handling protests, all the stuff which I don't find fun). Also, we don't want to be responsible for skippers choosing to push on past prudence JUST because there is a race on the line. Or to discourage anyone from participating just because they have a slow boat (handicapped or not). There ARE still a few real ocean races that accept boats our size (the Single Handed Transpac, for instance) if you are so inclined.
With that said, if we get some sailors who really want to seriously race, I will leave it up to them to figure out what handicap system to use. If a bunch of scooters want to arrange PHRF scoring as a kind of side bet, I encourage that. Heck, I might even get a rating for my boat just to participate in the side event. But please don't look to our little Scoot committee to handle it.
Ain't it amazing how many Alberg owners seem to have that same respect for their Alberg boats no matter what they've owned before. Just a couple weeks ago ran into a fella that had a 35' Ericson, which I have always thought of as being a great boat tell me "I wish I had my Triton back, things were so much simpler then." TJim
Sorry if I ruffled some feathers about the lawyer thing but we all know what kind of a litigious country we live in ::) and thought that it might be a good idea to C.Y.A. If nobody objects, I could ask a lawyer friend of mine what he thinks. For what its worth, I hate the idea of having to asking a lawyer to... It's the Libertarian in me :D.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Pappa Jack - I think your point is valid. Most of us cannot or do not want to pay for something like this. If there is some paperwork saying the event organizers are not liable for anything would be better than nothing. The laws of the Sea are a bit old and strange to most of us.
A proper "Pappa" comment.
Hiya Pappy -
No probs! I'm with ya. In fact, I jokingly refer to my boat as "my own floating Colorado"* ;D, and don't believe in lawyers, myself. But I do know that some of them are out there, circling, just looking fer something to stick their overly litigious teeth into... ::)
I do have a friend who lawyers for a living, and so I know that not all of 'em are bad. :D I fix his computers, do his website. I've been/will be talking to him more, and Yes, there will probably need to be some kind of statement of release signed by folks who sail in the Scoot. A necessary evil, in this day and age. It will, I imagine, release everyone from everything, confirming and enforcing the fact that this is an event of a solitary nature, done collectively, simply for fun, and solely by and of individual choice and responsibility.
It's funny, but sad, that the lawyers make the laws which require more lawyers to get into court over, to make new laws, to... And that's why I maintain that the only vote common folk have in the USA anymore that *really* counts any more is up there in the Jury box*.
---
On to more pleasant topics! :)
Dan - I think we should handicap on total waterline length.
For you, that would include the waterline of those training hulls that stick out on the side of yer boat.
You better sail fast, sonny! ;D :P
Just pulling Dan's third leg, of course. No handicaps. Just get there, finish "the course" safe and sound, and have fun doing it. That's the whole point. :)
Now, if Frank was to sail in it, and maybe David Old Jersey, we might have to introduce some type of a Beer/Booze Handicap! ;D
I'm with Adam - anybody who wants to make it anything more than a brag, go for it. Me, I'm just looking forward to meeting more of y'all, and then - the days offshore. :D
Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.
I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)
If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?
-------------------------------------------
*"floating Colorado" - anyone who didn't get this reference and wants to, should read "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand :)
*This is WAY off topic, but IMO important to US citizens. If anyone wants to discuss it, we can start another thread. But here is some info in brief that I think is too important to let the opportunity slide to tell others about it:
See, read, understand FIJA.org (http://www.fija.org/index.php?page=staticpage&id=1) - know your duty, your rights, and why you're there, *before* you go. Don't tell the Judge that you know what you know about your Rights and power as a Jurist, though - because if you do - they'll put you under a Court Order to shut you up, so that you won't tell the other jurists.
I'm kidding, right??? Wouldn't that be a miscarriage of Justice?
No. I know this because - It happened to me, and boy was that a shocker and an eye opener, as well as being infinitely saddening...
Glad to see your not scared by some darn lawyers, there easy to deal with, just toss 'em in the drink and cannibalism will take over! ;D
Thanks for the fija.org site, very informative
LOL,Tim.;D
I know that they aren't all bad.
How's the joke go - 99% of lawyers give all the others a bad reputation?
;D ;D ;D (told to me by a lawyer! lol)
What's funny is that I was on my way to being one,.......then I went sailing and found my TRUE calling ;D
Kurt...what's with the beer thing? rum good man...it must be RUM
Quote.."Now,if Frank was to sail in it, and maybe David Old Jersey,we might have to introduce some type of a Beer/Booze Handicap!";D,...remember...getting there IS the fun
Quote from: CapnK on June 25, 2008, 07:37:40 AM
Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.
I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)
If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?
My thought... the start time is the start time. We should start the clock then. If half the fleet is tied up to a dock too hung over to start, then they will perhaps finish later with a greater overall time; but otherwise there is no problem. Weather delays the fleet and no one starts for five days? Well, the clock would then indicate a bunch of REALLY long trip times. Someone takes longer to get to the start line than expected and starts a week late? Ok. See you when you get there. Sorry about the long finish time.
The start time is one of the few things we can really control. Without it folks could make the trip six months later, cross in great time, and take the honor for the fastest time. I don't like that. While this is an individual challenge, it is also a community event. (Of course, I'm not trying to discourage doing the course six months later; just that you would be experiencing a whole different set of conditions and wouldn't be playing with the rest of us).
I think there should be some sort of deadline for crossing the start line. Nothing too tight or difficult. Just something so that we can eventually say that all starters have finished. Maybe a start before the last previous boat finishes? Maybe a month? Something just to bracket when the event is.
This is not to encourage going during a bad weather window. Nope. That is an advantage to it NOT being a real race. Sure, times may vary widely; but it really doesn't matter. Seamanship first.
Actually, hmm, maybe there is an advantage to keeping a fleet clock as well as individual passage clocks. Maybe we'll give out an award (might just be a toast at a bar ... no plans on trophies or anything) for fastest overall time and fastest individual time. Lets just try and set it up so that everyone should leave somewhere around the general date. I really would like this to be a group as well as an individual event.
BTW... if we keep the prizes simple and cheap (or better free ... just having an "official" Scoot title might be enough), we can get really creative with some if it. Fastest time; first to arrive; smallest boat; best demonstration of the SailFar spirit; etc... Likely half the "awards" would be invented at the finish to cover unexpected events. Could be fun.
Nah it's too darn sweet, kinda like kool-aid.....It must be Anejo...Tequila Jim
Quote from: CapnK on June 25, 2008, 07:37:40 AM
Now, about Start times. What I think about that is this: I'll be up there, wherever everyone else is. By then, we'll have said "We start at such-n-such a time." I think that so long as anyone gets to the start place, and doesn't leave *before* the start time, that's good enough.
I will be aware of how long it takes me, and I think it'd be fun to sail away from the line with several of y'all, but if it suits someone elses needs or style to start an hour or a day later for whatever reason they deem sufficient, then that's fine with me. So I don't think we need to get formal and officious about recording times, start or finish. I'll write my own down, or take a pic of my GPS at the start and finish. That'll do for me. :)
If a group of Scooters wants to jockey up to the line together, and try to cross it 1/2 second after the Start time while stealing somebody else's wind :D, I say go for it. I might join in on that. But for the overall purpose I think that "We'll start on this day at this time or after" is probably good enough. Thoughts? Opinions?
I think simply setting a day (and an hour) for kick off - and then leaving the exact details down to the participants (nearer the time) is the way to go - some may want to do the starting line thing (and then
they get to organise it ;D) and others will be happier to start from the dock at the appointed hour (or later for whatever reasons - last minute technical problem. or hangover!)......having flexibility designed in as part of the plan means no one will feel they have "Missed out" or have become second class by not crossing a line in the water to the sound of a gun at a certain hour - after maybe 2 years preparation.....and IMO would encourage folk to sign up in the first place by making it as informal / pressure free as possible - albeit still with options for those who want them to be part of a more usual "race" style start.
I don't actually see a problem with the start date being missed by everyone due to bad weather! - even a week! The record books may look a bit strange some years, but IMO irrelevent - it's about participating in both the event
and the build up / preparation plus the Challenge of simply finishing.
I see no problem with the start and finish time being a Trust thing - the only person someone would be cheating is themselves.......as after all even claiming fastest time is never really going to mean anything to anyone else - even within that Scoot year. Being the quickest may be nice ;D, but is not the object (it not being a "race" against anyone else).....so no time pressure on anyone to set off from "the Scoot" at the appointed hour. In any event the boats (and Sailors) are likely to be so diverse that comparing times would be meaningless, with or without a handicap system.....folk will know who they are "Competing" against within the Fleet - no need to be a formal thing.
http://www.thescoot.com/ (http://www.thescoot.com/)
Date change?
I feel a bit out of place doing this as I more than likely not be doing the Scoot, but, if you change the date to Mid Nov to early Dec, some of those who start could make it down to the end of the Carib to avoid the "H" season.
You would also have warmer waters and less people.
Just a thought.
Maybe the next Scoot?
The problem with November/December is that some of us have families...and they want us around for things like Thanksgiving/Christmas. However, I'd say we need to look at the pilot charts and give this some consideration in any case. :)
Quote from: CapnK on June 25, 2008, 07:37:40 AM
Just pulling Dan's third leg, of course.
:o :o :o :o
On Nov/Dec as an event date: Didn't you guys look at that already and find the frequency of NE-er's a bit higher and reaching farther South?
Pilot Chart for Nov (0-1% gales):
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/scoot_nov.png)
and Dec (0-1% gales reported):
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/scoot_dec.png)
Looks pretty good, really...
Maybe I'm thinking of a conversation on a different topic....
{On Edit: Added Chart images}
Northeast winds, as long as their not in the form of Nor'Easter... would be better than southerly winds... makes it a nice run or broad reach. :)
Ahoy,
Well, I got a hold of my lawyer friend(He and the Mrs. are down in Cabo for a week). Anyway, he said that any thing we do in this "society :'(" can lead to a law suite. But, he also said that our risk would be small due to the fact that our "event" is so low key, no funding,etc. and that we shouldn't worry... too much.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Gulf Stream + N/NE winds (of any strength) = Not Good.
It takes surprisingly little contrary wind to make that saltwater river out there get nasty, quick like.
Maybe it's the scale of the wind, moreso than the strength - even 5-10 knots, spread across the miles of open ocean, against the waves, against the current... a cumulative effect perhaps.
(And then when you have both scale and strength, of course... Katie bar the doors!).
Nope, don't wanna be there if you can at all help it, when there's northerlies...
Good to hear about the lawyers, Pappy. :)
darn...knew i was forgetting somethin.... :) pesky gulf stream...
Does anyone have direct personal experience with the Gulf Stream in northerly winds? I've been through experiences that are supposed to be awful to find they aren't really so bad. I now question common knowledge and other examples of "everyone knows."
So anyone out there "been there, done that?"
sail fast, dave
I've seen what happened to a couple of different boats that went and crossed and got caught by a northerly wind. Not pretty.
Quote from: Auspicious on July 01, 2008, 03:54:43 PM
I now question common knowledge and other examples of "everyone knows."
I cannot comment from personal experience about the Stream in northerly winds, but Grog for that statement.
I crossed the gulf stream in 20-25 knot northerlies from Miami to Bimini. I would not have gone, but I was in a sailing school "and yer not the captain" as my instructor said to me. Jerked around our 50 ft. Gibsea quite a bit, and I was so seasick that I was bedridden for about two hours (once we arrived).
I would not underestimate it.
The waves were only about 10-12 feet high, but they were vertical because the current would take the bottom off of them. They did not break on us, but we would fall down the surface of them. The stern would get pushed 20 feet leeward with every wave we traversed.
Minimize risk?- well if I were going to sail across in a small boat- I would trust the weather report, and not go until I had a 24 hour window of good winds. I think a small boat could make it to Alice town in 12 hours if you averaged about 4-5kts hour.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 01, 2008, 04:13:51 PM
Quote from: Auspicious on July 01, 2008, 03:54:43 PM
I now question common knowledge and other examples of "everyone knows."
I cannot comment from personal experience about the Stream in northerly winds, but Grog for that statement.
Thank you my friend. <grin>
Quote from: newt on July 01, 2008, 04:51:53 PM
I crossed the gulf stream in 20-25 knot northerlies from Miami to Bimini.
That's exactly the kind of personal account I was looking for. Thank you, with a nip of grog for your seasickness. It's good to have credible data.
Anybody else with experience in the Stream in adverse conditions?
sail fast, dave
I can tell you for an absolute fact that a friend of mine spent 30 miserable hours crossing from the Bahamas back to Florida when the winds were northerly at around 25 to 30. Because the boat owner "had to get back". My friend was the ONLY one aboard not totally incapacitated from sea sickness ( and he was close to it).
Another friend was aboard a 110 foot minesweeper running north in the stream when they got caught. He said he thought he was gonna die.
Crossing the Gulf Stream in a northerly blow is one of those things that the Florida folks will tell you for certain NOT to try. The saying is- "when the elephants are marching, stay inside" referring to being able to see the lumps offshore in the stream.
One bit of wisdom I truly believe and will heed.
Been out there in powerboats where the wind came up from basically calm to 10-15 NE, and I can tell you it starts getting wobbly right away...
...and when that starts, all the boats under 32-35' begin heading in hasta pronto. The big ones (up to 60' plus) don't stay out much longer than another hour or two. The conditions spiral down too fast.
From land you can watch the buoy reports when a front passes over, and sometimes see how sudden and extreme a change it makes. Basically, fishermen here - and these are guys who can be out or back in 2-3 hours - won't bother poking their noses out of the jetty if the winds are 20+ and northerly. It might not be bad near-shore, but out there...? Nah, you don't wanna go there. ;)
Quote from: CapnK on July 01, 2008, 09:49:49 PM
Been out there in powerboats where the wind came up from basically calm to 10-15 NE, and I can tell you it starts getting wobbly right away...
Was that in Florida or further North where you are? Doesn't the Gulf Stream spread, sink, and slow further North? When I crossed from Bermuda the GS didn't seem all that significant (very light winds -- the current set was pretty minor though).
See http://rads.tudelft.nl/gulfstream/
sail fast, dave
Here is NOAA's weather buoy -
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41009 (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41009)
Click on history and pick a good wind speed. Put it into one of the sailing games and try it out. Steep, tall and quick.
Don't do it in winds above constant 8 mph or above and you will also need 24 hrs for the seas to calm down from the last winds.
When I crossed over to Bimini last time we had light winds from the West and then clocked north to 20+ from the east 12 miles from Bimini.
The light winds was not bad but 20+ on the nose was a bit rough. I am glad I had an autopilot.
There is a lot of people who bring their boats down after Thanksgiving and fly home for the holidays and then return. Usually a better crossing than in Jan or Feb and warmer weather.
Whenever you cross, you do not want to do it with any north winds above 8 mph for the last 24 hrs.
Dave - my personal experience was/is off the coast here, but as far as I know the same cautions pertain to pretty much all of the waters along the SE facing coasts of the Carolinas (ie Georgia to Hatteras).
The coastline here is a very shallow, gently-sloping bench right out to the edge of the continental shelf. That also happens to be the edge of the Gulf Stream. Water depths there (going from memory and generalizing) will go from say 150' to over 600' (& deeper) in a mile or two, and the edge of the Stream is clearly visible to the naked eye most days. It is still a pretty tight and coherent formation in the area of the Carolinas.
This is (or will be) somewhat of an Archive thread, and Scoot discussion gets more specific now that it has it's own section of the Forum to play in... :)
Thank you for the Grog (hic!) It seems like the discussion is whether it is safer to go down to Miami and make the quick sail across or to try and sail the stream just out of the Carolina's where it may be wider, but maybe more gentle. The northern route may have additional advantages:(warning- the below is an opinion of someone who has not done the journey)
1- once you cross the stream there apparently are some back eddies above Grand Bahama.
2. The current on the charts is apparently less, but wider of course.
I would like to hear more from sailors that have done this upper route, esp. in smaller boats.
Some people even advocate going to Bermuda before San Salvador. It gets you around the gulf stream and makes the winds a little more to your liking. ;D
I'd be up for it, but then again get me talking about sailing and there isn't too much I am not up for...
This fits my time frame pretty well. I think by 2010 that gives me more time to prepare for this. I also like the idea of sailing down the coast first. It gets me in the water first so saves on gas and gets me in the water sooner.
How many of you are thinking of single handing this?
I'm going to single hand it. That's an important part of the challenge for me.
The route is, of course, completely your choice. For me, the second most important part of the challenge is the offshore voyage. I personally have no interest in spending any more time than necessary in the ditch, and intend on heading out of Beaufort and across the stream at the first reasonable weather window.
I may take crew on the return trip.
This is a very interesting trip for me because it kills two birds with one stone, I would love to sail down the east coast and to top if off with a stop at the islands, perfect. I like the fact that there are others there to share the fun and perhaps recover the body. ;D
The biggest problem for me is the amount of time I will be able to be away from home. I can be gone for a month rather easy anything longer then that and it starts getting a bit more difficult.
I guess I could always crew if someone needed crew but i would much rather do this myself.
I would say that the odds, and history ;D, favor me doing the Scoot singlehanded.
Ron - Adam and I talked about how he (or anyone traveling a long way to get to...) would be getting his boat to Beaufort. It could be done in stages, which could also work well as short 'shakedown' cruises for the eventual long offshore leg.
Ie; Move the boat some distance over a long weekend well ahead of time, leave it somewhere for a bit, repeat as needed to be able to get to Beaufort in late April, if you want to begin your Scoot when it looks like several others will be starting theirs...
And, BTW, anyone wishing to do this that will be coming up from the south is invited to leave the boat here in Georgetown, and I'll keep an eye on her for you in the 'between' times. :) G-town is approx 3 fairly long days to Beaufort by ICW, 2 sailing days outside, if the weather cooperates.
Good point, Kurt, and again this emphasizes just how good a Start point Beaufort really is.
There are multiple good, well protected anchorages in the Beaufort area, so if one even needed to move their boat there a month or two in advance, leaving her there should be relatively stress free (compared to some areas) and inexpensive (compared to marinas).
I may have more comment on this in a few weeks.
In addition, there are quite a few quality anchorages/harbors along the Neuse River, only a few hours north of Beaufort. For those more inclined to leave their boat in a marina, along the Neuse they run as little as $6 per ft per month, though some of them (as you can imagine) are full and have waiting lists.
My plan is to leave Iowa about 3 days before the start, a day to drive out, a day to get aquanted with the area and get ready, meet all of you guys and probably drink some grog, and then go! This gulfstream thing has me concerned though. Marc
How are you coming from Iowa Marc? I will be coming from ohio and perhaps if the route is close to the same we can follow one another.
I am not so affraid of the gulf stream I am more affraid of the trip trailoring my boat there. I figure if I make it that far the rest is easy.
Marc and Ronc,
I to will be leaving Iowa three, or more likely four days before the start. It's 1300+ miles from Decorah to Beaufort and will take two days of driving. When I was younger I could have done it nonstop but now... it takes a little longer ::). I'm sure that I could meet up with you two some where along the way.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
P.S. Marc, are you getting my emails?
Pappy Jack and RonC, My next door neighbor is originally from N.C. said that it's about a 22 hour drive from Des Moines to the East coast, Pappy Jack I received 1 email from you as a PM here on this site but none in my email account. Ron C just hook her up and go make sure everything works and you should have no problem getting there. I have not selected a route yet maybe through Chicago or St. Louis. Marc
I'd avoid Chicago as much as possible. The area around chicago isn't all that trailer friendly, since they have a lot of toll roads. Cutting southeast is probably a much better bet IMHO. I had to travel through the area with a trailer when I was taking Gee from DC to Seattle.
I'd go I-80E to I-74E to I-75S to I-64E. From I-64E you have a couple of choices, but I'd probably take I-77S to I-40E. Be aware that parts of I-64E and I-77S are toll roads.
Once you're on I-40e, you can either get off at NC-24 and take it east to Beaufort, or continue further a bit further south/east on I-40e and take NC-53 to NC-24. The NC-24 route is a bit more direct, but I don't know how slow a road NC-24 is, so taking I-40e and then cutting across using NC-53 might be a better choice.
You know in the future a SCOOT across the great lakes would be good.
Hi guys,
I think that Adrift's route is about the best. I looked it up on Map Quest and iirc it was about the same. It also said that it would take me 22 1/2 hours to make the trip(1300+ miles oneway). If I average 50 MPH that would make it about 26 hours. So, pulling 7500 lbs. of boat, trailer, and other stuff would add about 3-4 hours or more. As of now, I'm figuring about $6.oo/gal. :o for gas(JEZ)!!! I hope things cool down in the middle east... for everybody sake :(.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
One advantage of trailering a Telstar is that you can sleep in the boat if you are tired and pulled over into a rest area or truck stop. Can also cook if you need to. :) It's kind of like an RV when it is up on the trailer. :)
Hey guys - what's been decided so far? Is there a synopsis Pinned somewhere?
Jim
Not sure if you have seen the website......half a dozen folk signed up already.......
http://www.thescoot.com/ (http://www.thescoot.com/)
Probably help if "someone" put the link in their sig ;D
Done. :)
Hi guys,
Here is a web site that might interest some of you. It's, www.iboattrack.com/index.html This might be something we could use on"The Scoot". It would let the people back home know where we are(or where to find the body ::) :'( ::)).
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
What is worrying about the iBoattrack site is they have no price specifics. Spot Messengers might be a better idea. $149 for the hardware, and flat rate annual fees depending on what level of service you want.
Are any of the boats going planning to fit an SSB? If we could relay positions by VHF to that boat (assuming everyone stays close enough) the SSB-equipped boats could send locations to me and I can post them on ShipTrak (free) or similar. I can pass weather information back.
Just a thought.
sail fast, dave
8 signed up and barely a month in 8)
Methinks a chord has been struck 8). Once word gets out a bit more methinks 2010 could be interesting........
I might be adding an SSB if I can figure out how to run the antennae on my boat. I do have the radio. Marc
Quote from: Marc on July 17, 2008, 08:43:45 PM
I might be adding an SSB if I can figure out how to run the antennae on my boat. I do have the radio. Marc
What kind of boat Marc? Do you have a tuner?
One of the challenges of a small boat is the shorter backstay which makes the conventional backstay antenna tougher to tune at some frequencies. There are a lot of commercially available antenna you can mount on a pushpit with manual tuning for band that your auto-tuner can tweak from there.
At ham radio Field Days I have seen and done some creative things, including long-wire antenna held up by balloons and kites. I think the kite idea might have some real potential for a small boat antenna. I have certainly had great fun flying kites from my boat while underway.
I'll give that some thought and see if something useful can be rigged up with metal fishing leader.
sail fast, dave
Quote from: Auspicious on July 18, 2008, 10:38:11 AM
I'll give that some thought and see if something useful can be rigged up with metal fishing leader.
sail fast, dave
Keep an eye out for electrical activity though ;)
How about using that new "Spot" device? (page 33 west marine catalog) Then everyone would have the ability to report their position/ask for non emergency assistance/ask for emergency assistance whenever they want with the push of a button. That company might be interested in a little advertising - be even better for them if someone actually had to ask for help. They are about $150 & 150 for a years satalite service.
Just an Idea - I realize that everyone is on their own but we sure don't want to be part of a tragedy. I've been in the stream in april going north in a storm wasn't any fun even on a LST.
jim
Quote from: polecat on July 18, 2008, 01:04:12 PM
How about using that new "Spot" device? (page 33 west marine catalog) Then everyone would have the ability to report their position/ask for non emergency assistance/ask for emergency assistance whenever they want with the push of a button. That company might be interested in a little advertising - be even better for them if someone actually had to ask for help. They are about $150 & 150 for a years satalite service.
Just an Idea - I realize that everyone is on their own but we sure don't want to be part of a tragedy. I've been in the stream in april going north in a storm wasn't any fun even on a LST.
jim
Advertising would be tough due to the effort that has been put into NOT having this officially organized. I wouldn't want any corporation trying to push things anyway. Besides, it is better for US if we DON'T have to call for help.
Regardless, I plan on using SPOT, or something similar (a lot can change in two years) to keep folks at home happy. I will probably also have an EPIRB of some type on board, even if I have to rent it. Again, to keep the folks at home happy.
Everyone, though, has their own personal comfort zones. I
hope that all participants will have a plan for dealing with extreme emergencies. Hopefully, in most cases it will include more than "to go down with the ship." Sat phone? Epirb? Spot? SSB? Positive flotation? Towing a second full size boat? Pool noodles? Emergency escape submarine? A signed and notarized contract with Neptune?
While this is obviously not what you would call a spectator sport, it would be fun for some who can't participate to follow along. I love the idea of SPOT. Maybe, just maybe, some company will come up with an affordable way to send SMS messages before 2010. That would be even cooler!
Quote from: polecat on July 18, 2008, 01:04:12 PM
How about using that new "Spot" device? (page 33 west marine catalog) Then everyone would have the ability to report their position/ask for non emergency assistance/ask for emergency assistance whenever they want with the push of a button. That company might be interested in a little advertising - be even better for them if someone actually had to ask for help. They are about $150 & 150 for a years satalite service.
J
jim
Sounds great- you buying for all of us? ;D ;D
Nope can't afford it - guess I'll have to suggest a "notarized contract with Neptune".
I'll be quiet now
jim
Regarding SSB antennas: I've spoken with folks who have 'rope antennas', and aside from being affordable, stowable, and keeping you from having to carve up your backstay, they work really well. Here's a link to a site which sells them, but please note that you can also make your own:
http://www.ropeantenna.com/
The SPOT device looks like an excellent and affordable solution to folks who would want to 'phone home', in my opinion. Thanks for pointing that one out, Jim - Grog! :) (And Thanks for Serving our Nation, too! Grog for that also.)
Gadgetwise, I'll have a VHF, and maybe one of those SeaMe radar thingies. I'll be glad to talk to anyone who sails within hailing distance, or, barring that, we can always chat later, once in the Bahamas. ;)
If for some reason "Katie" and I should disappear Out There, well, you could say I went 'smiling, with my boots on', doing exactly what I wanted to do... 8) But I'm planning on helping the rest of y'all decimate some Kalik wherever we wind up... ;D
Rest a SAT Phone for a month. Text option works well and is cheep.
Quote from: polecat on July 18, 2008, 01:04:12 PM
How about using that new "Spot" device?
There is a thread about one SPOT user here: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/cruising/44917-spot-messenger-tracking-wild-goose.html
I know that WE are responsible for our own safety and vessel and all that good stuff but I would like to offer, at this time, a link to the San Francisco Singlehanded Sailing Society's safety requirements list http://www.sfbaysss.org/TransPac/transpac2008/documents/2208_monohull_check_list.pdf just as a GUIDE LINE for our little soire'e. I for one will be using it to help get my boat ready ::). Needless to say I'm getting VERY acquainted with the West Marine catalog
Fair winds and full sails,
Pappy Jack
Quote from: Pappy Jack on July 20, 2008, 07:59:46 PM
the San Francisco Singlehanded Sailing Society's safety requirements list
Wow. After reviewing that list, I for one am glad that
(a) I am not a part of that sailing society, and
(b) The Scoot is NOT adopting any kind of similar oversight
And by the way, have you looked into Defender Marine rather than West? Even with shipping, you can save a TON of money compared to buying from West. I recently put together an order that the net savings from Defender was $218...on a $380 order. That's a HUGE savings compared to the total of my order (the West order would have been nearly $600). None the stuff at Defender was "on sale," that was all usual prices.
Captain S.
Yes, I've heard of Defender Marine but have never gotten their catalog or looked them up on line :-[. This is something that I'll correct immediately if not sooner ;D. And yes, it's a good thing that I have almost two years until the race. It'll take me that long to figure everthing out ;).
There are several single handed races in the Great Lakes that would make a very good warm up for "The Scoot". They are sponsored by http://www.solosailor.org/index.php and they're not as expensive or as tight @$$ed as the Singlehanded Sailing Soc. :o . I plan (hope) to do one next summer as a warm up. Like I've said before, I need all the help I can get. I've sailed a little in the Great Lakes and down through the Everglades and the Keys but this (The Scoot) well expand my experience a hundred fold.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
P.S. Thanks again for the info.
Here's some more info on SPOT:
http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=5619&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I'm not impressed.
sail fast, dave
Defender is one of the best catalog outlets going. Plus Stephen Lance, who is second generation owner/operator is readily available should you run into problems. He monitors several larger sailing boards regularly ( TSBB and CSBB)
And Stephen's dad, who started the place STILL comes in every day- he's in his 90s.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 20, 2008, 08:41:36 PM
Quote from: Pappy Jack on July 20, 2008, 07:59:46 PM
the San Francisco Singlehanded Sailing Society's safety requirements list
Wow. After reviewing that list, I for one am glad that
(a) I am not a part of that sailing society, and
(b) The Scoot is NOT adopting any kind of similar oversight
I can understand why folk would not want to get involved in scrutineering all that :o
But I thought the list was nonetheless very informative and IMO mostly common sense with a lot of it not that expensive. Certainly should give folk food for thought even if they decide themselves to do differently. And of course I am sure even these folks would say the list is not meant to be exhaustive.........
Quote from: Auspicious on July 21, 2008, 11:20:39 AM
Here's some more info on SPOT:
http://ssca.org/DiscBoard/viewtopic.php?t=5619&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I'm not impressed.
I've heard of folks who really like the SPOT, and occasionally someone who doesn't. Fair enough. It isn't perfect and probably shouldn't be relied upon as a last resort. That said, my interest in the device is being able to transmit an "I'm okay, and this is where I am" message.
Hmm. Perhaps SPOT would be improved if they where to add an external antenna to the unit. Then if you could keep the device below decks and wired into the twelve volt system it might be a better fit for sailors. My understanding is that the biggest failure of the unit is that it must be outdoors when transmitting, and that can take awhile.
There is a nice write up in the May issue of Sail magazine about "Spot". There are a lot of pros and cons about it but it seems that it too new to have much a track record like other devices but then again, the price is right. Well, just read the article and you will see ;). I'm thinking of using this just 'cause of the price. Hope I don't live to regret lit :o
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
I'm gonna be digging for my May issue but I think I know where it is, thanks for the info Pappy Jack. Marc
A fellow Triton owner in Juneau has the spot installed and I've been tracking him for about 10 days now.
Just got mine in the mail yesterday. Brand new, $134 including freight. If you want to check it out........
www.share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM
heck of an address huh!!!! TJim
Make that address a www.//share TJim
Quote from: TJim on July 23, 2008, 11:58:43 AM
Make that address a www.//share TJim
If you make the address like this;
{url=www.waythehecktoolongaddress.com}Put title of address you want to display here{/url}
Just replace the { with [
The original address of;
http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM
Will work like; This. (http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM)
s/v Faith—
Actually, neither of your links work, since the link is actually http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM with no www on it.
LINK (http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM)
Well thanks... that works and if anyone is truely curious about spot....there it be....looks like he's back to Juneau now but he's been out bumming around for about 10 days now... TJim
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 23, 2008, 12:08:56 PM
s/v Faith—
Actually, neither of your links work, since the link is actually http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM with no www on it.
LINK (http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?&glId=0tDemhxA5VQMgcgzRzSqG8zpHq3qYDWPM)
Thanks Dan, I just copied the original link as posted.
I have the spot, and used it this spring on a 1000 mile trip down river, and across the Gulf. I don't have the tracking feature, and don't really see why it's needed. I sent an "OK" message every day after anchoring for the night. It takes about 2-10 minutes for the message to send. I always just turned the unit on, and set it on the engine cover, just inside the cabin. It never failed to complete the transmission. I also sent the "OK" message every 4 hours when offshore. Family and freinds were very enthusiastic about getting these messages, which included a link to a map. At one point, I had about 30 people following my daily progress.
I like the "HELP" button feature, as it only sends the message to the people on your list.(up to 5 email addresses). You can pre-program the message to read something like: " I"m not in danger, but need help at these co-ordinates . Please notify ships or planes in the area to contact me on Ch 16 VHF, or ???SSB for details of my problem." This is a great feature as it allows the possibility of help for an engine, or rigging problem, without getting rescue people involved. It might allow you to save your boat in the process.
"911" feature also allows you to pre set a message. I gave the timeline, and details of my trip, my boat description, name, registration number, and cellphone number. This message is sent to the people on your list, and also to a live operator, who contacts your people by phone, as well as contacts the "authorities". The unit continues to send the "911" signal with your postion, for 48 hours or more. You can then put new batteries in if needed, for more time.
I quoted your post to start a thread to discuss the SPOT. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1832)
Grog for being the SPOT Guinea pig. ;)
Alex over at http://www.projectbluesphere.com/ (http://www.projectbluesphere.com/)has one and he seems to like it. he has it linked to the cruise log so you can check where he is.
I plan on getting one also n a couple of weeks.
Bill
an excellent warm-up race on lake michigan.....still time to enter.
great bunch of people.
Lake Michigan Singlehanded Society - Solo Challenge
August 15, 2008
Across the lake (racine to muskegon) and back, nonstop, ~135nm's.
http://www.lmssonline.com/
If we wanted to do these Great Lakes races, but didn't want to haul our boats cross country, could we "bareboat" from the local community? Would the local solo society be willing to help us find an appropriate small boat?
Just wondering...
Newt
I would think in the long run it would be easier pulling your boat across the country then provisioning and sailing an unfamiliar boat.
For me there is something to be said about it actually being your own boat and knowing her in and out. Then again I am a bit wierd that way.
I also think that since the point of the Great Lakes race would be preparation for something greater, that it would be best to do it ones own boat. Not to mention the difficulty in finding a boat to "borrow" from a Singlehanded Society ;)
fortunately, most of us have trailerable boats
How do you define trailerable? Godot could be put on a trailer, but so could a 50 footer. It is not really designed as a trailerable (the center board model was). My truck is too small to pull it in any case. I wonder how many people here think of their boats as trailerable. Does that mean it should be trailer launchable?
I'm not being snide. I really don't know.
I wouldn't consider Tehani "trailerable" although she is highway legal and we DID haul her form New York to Texas. Our 5.7L Silverado is plenty large enough to tow her.
But I would not really want to try ramp launching her at most ramps I've seen. I'd prefer to have her launched via travel-lift if we were to get a trailer.
Rigging isn't all THAT much of a problem- we've used a Macgregor mast raiser to set the mast ever time we've done it- once on a trailer pre launch and once in a slip. Both times we used a ladder up forward of the bow so someone could "catch" the mast head to help guide it down. NOT something I'd want to do every week , for sure.
That's somewhat unlikely since Laura has zero interest in towing the boat places. When Tehani goes somewhere she wants it to be by water.
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 31, 2008, 02:00:13 PM
But I would not really want to try ramp launching her at most ramps I've seen. I'd prefer to have her launched via travel-lift if we were to get a trailer.
The new trailer for Mariah is made that I could float her off, but would not want try and put her back on ;D
She is trailerable to the point of being able to haul her to a season of sailing or "special event"
;)
I dry sail my Bristol 24 most of the time. The boat weighs about 6000 pounds and the trailer weighs about 1500. I made the trailer to launch and recover the boat with no more trouble than I used to have with my Mac 25. I use an F350 truck to pull it. I got 12 mpg from Florida to Illinois this spring. My Bristol has a 3'5" draft. I wouldn't be to comfortable launching and retrieving with a deeper draft. I have to use a 7' extension as it is, and the launch ramp must be 5' deep at 30' from the waterline. Many ramps are that deep or more. My mast is too heavy to step with 1 or 2 people. It takes 3 or 4 to man-handle it up. I have lowered it alone using my spinnaker pole and mainsheet assembly. I plan to insall a taller, stronger, tabernacle to make shorthanded stepping safer.
If your boat is not over 8' wide and doesn't draw over 3 1/2', it isn't that hard to trailer and launch.
If one were thinking of a gulf scoot - where would be the best start to keep the chalenges fairly equal - when would you leave out to arrive in San Salvador just before the scooters from beaufort? Anyone thinking of this?
Tough sail across the GOM to Florida- you are against the wind most all the way. Laura and I beat our brains out trying several years ago- in 24 hours offshore we LOST 38 miles toward Florida :o
If you really wanted to do it, the thing to do would be to go down to at least Port Aransas and jump off there sailing out to the 100 fathom curve- the 1000 foot water is much closer there than further east and the slant on the wind is some better.
Much as we hate it, heading east we've found the simplest thing is to stay in the ICW til you get past New Orleans, THEN be ready to jump offshore. Once past N.O. you can go out several passes from Mississippi Sound or Lake Borne and have a much better angle on the prevailing SE winds. That's a tedious haul going across eastern Texas and western Louisiana, but with the oil rigs out there and the prevailing head winds, it's really the best way.
Unless of course you sail to Veracruz, then head across to southern Florida, straight across - THEN you might have fair winds. But a WHOLE lot further to sail and you'd be then bucking the loop current ( that eventually becomes the Gulf Stream.
Sadly, we are just in the bottom of a wind hole here, heading east.
So if there was a gulf scoot it would have to have a start somewhere east of N.O.
and the farther east the better for good wind. That would most likely mean cutting through the Okeechobee, straight across the stream and down the providence channel out into the atlantic and south to San Salvador. Lots of Motoring but would be a fun trip. Coming home would be a good trip if you came around to the south and stop in the Keys then across the gulf.
jim
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 31, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
Tough sail across the GOM to Florida- you are against the wind most all the way. Laura and I beat our brains out trying several years ago- in 24 hours offshore we LOST 38 miles toward Florida :o
Almost makes trailering across Texas sound fun ;)
Polecat- yeah- IF, and right now that's a definite no-the Okeechobee waterway across Florida is open. Right now it is closed due to lack of water. Or it was last I heard.
Yep - sounds like a tough go no matter what. :-\ Worst thing is that it just doesn't feel like cruisin - to much like schedules and work. Think I'd rather cruise to the Bahamas starting in Nov then maybe ooch on up to Beaufort early April for the scoot. -- hate to miss the first one -- it'll be sea story material for years. ;)
jim
Here is a question for all the Scooters. Given that this event will be about 650 -700 miles and mostly to wind ward, how long do you think it will take your "sailfar" boat to make the trip? I know I would like to make about 100 miles a day but reality would dictate about 50, ergo about 14 days ???.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
It is hard to say how long it will take. I'm sort of expecting 10-14 days (the distance covered over ground is likely to greatly exceed the 650 estimated miles as I tack back and forth). I've already requested four weeks off from work. If it takes 14 days, I will have a few days to enjoy the scenery before heading back (the return trip should be easier). Assuming nothing major breaks. If it takes much longer, well, I guess I might have to leave the boat in the Bahamas and fly back home and either sell it there or plan on returning the following year for the trip home. The advantage to that plan is I get to enjoy the Bahamas longer. The drawback is I might find myself temporarily boatless after The Scoot. Or maybe I could make it to Florida or something.
Adam,
I figured about four weeks also. Two weeks there, one week back and one week of driving back and forth from Iowa to N.C. I hate to be rushed but what can you do? As for asking for time off, I have not done that yet. Doesn't make much sense considering the line of work I'm in :'(. I've had my vacation cut in half once, just to cover a job...me thinks that I'm too loyal or something ::).
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Well, I talked to my operations manager about doing The Scoot and got a tentative OK :o. I guess time will tell. How about the rest of you brave souls. Any of you guys have to ask for time off or is Godot and I the only ones :D?
Fair winds and full sails,
Pappy Jack
I'm semi-retired with a 34yr old taking over my construction business.I only do plans now.When I told him it was April..he said "thats a busy time"..I replied.."fire me, PLEASE, fire me" ;D. Now..about the windward thing...who's idea was that? How about a beam reach somewhere ;)
I have enough vacation time saved up for a six week trip. I also talked to the owner of my company and he is all for it. He does think I am crazy since he prefers to sit on a cruise ship.
All I need now is more open water experience sailing.
Route B - Beam reach down to Fl and then through the NW passage. Stay out of the Gulf Stream until NW Passage, that is Port Everglades. Stop by Manjack Cay on the way back.
Lynx,
Sounds good. You have a counter current between land and the GF that would should help a lot. But(isn't there always a but?) it looks like it might be a longer route. Also I don't know if I would want to sail that close to land and shipping in the GS. I can just see me falling asleep and my boat sailing blindly out into the GS. But on the other hand, if you had trouble with your boat or your health you would be close to shore and help. But...that would take away some of the adventure of the whole experience. Would it not? I was also thinking of going south to, oh say, the Frying Pan then going SW but here again it would add some miles on to the voyage but would have that counter current helping out. BUT..... ::) ;D ???
OH well, I probably not know which way I'll go until I go.
Fair winds and full sails,
Pappy Jack
I am sailing the route B. For one this will be the longest voyage and since I have a swing keel I would like to be within a few hours of land if the weather goes south or a I have boat issues. It is going to be more of a cruise for me then a race.
For my mini-midwest scoot I am planning a trip completely around Lake Erie in the early spring 2009 and then a trip around the southern half of Lake Michigan in the late summer of 2009.
Alot can happen in two years, so my route might change. Who knows I might luck into a nice compac or bristol.
Has anybody been keeping up with the discussion on the Jester Challenge web site ,http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jesterchallenge/ , about the use of engines? It seems that a lot of enterants used there engines, which isn't against the rules, there are no rules. But it seems that it has caused a bit of a problem. Does anybody think this could happen to our "Scoot"?
I'm in favor of "no rules", just guide lines. This is a gentelmans/womans challenge and what you do should be up to you and you alone. Comments anyone?
Fair winds and full sails,
Pappy Jack
Quote from: Pappy Jack on September 29, 2008, 03:37:58 PM
Comments anyone?
Seeing as I am not signed up to either, you might as well have my opinion ;D........
I think in an ideal world everyone would sail 120% of the time. But in the real world the Skipper gets to choose what he considers the best way of travelling from A to B in comfort and safety given the capabilities of vessel and Skipper. If that means motoring through a lull in the wind for whatever reasons, then so be it. For me it is no harm and no foul........and a no brainer.
(BTW I have not logged onto the Yahoo discussion forum - but at a guess it is full of the regulars from YBW.com, some of whom like a good "discussion" / something or someone to moan about. Indeed a few could start an argument in a telephone box. alone :D).
The gist of the debate is that while all agree that it is prudent to use ones motor to move out of the way or oncoming freighters and the like, or to charge the batteries but I guess there was an excessive use of motors just to get to the finish line sooner...not necessarily to beat the other guy but to end there part in the race(challenge) sooner.
Some want to have a rule that says that no use of motors will be permitted except for safety. Others would like to have two groups...one with motors and one without and so on and so forth. One person, and I agree, stated that once you start making rules you are on a slippery slope to having a full fledge RACE with all that goes with it. But, I suppose that if this happened there would, at sometime, be a small group of people that would start having a challenge with no rules, again ::).
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Me, I'm planning on leaving NC on my boat, and getting to the end point some time later, after having had much fun crossing a good chunk of ocean. I plan to do that under sail, without using my engine. If I can sail right up to the dock, I will. ;D
I don't know what others might do, and to be completely honest, don't really care all that much - if one of the others who leaves at the same time runs their engine to get to the end ahead of me, or because they are tired of bobbing around just a few miles offshore, or for whatever reason - as long as they are happy with their Scoot, with the end result, then - good on 'em! Whatever scoots their Scoot. ;) ;D 8) I do have a feeling that I'll want a long shower and a cold drink, by the time I get there; beyond that, well, my Scoot is for me, and it'll be fun that others who have done their Scoot at the same time will be around, to be able to talk to afterwards. :)
No doubt some will use the occasion to be redeeming their sailFar Grogs.* ;D
Pappy, I wonder how many 'enthusiastic participants' of that discussion were Jester sailors themselves, vs how many armchair-sailed it... ;)
*Yes, sailFar members are due some gratis Grog whenever they meet me in person. Except for Frank - I am not rich enough to support that much Grog consumption...
Captn K,
I think that most, but not all, were either in the race or had signed up and were not able to make the start. For what it's worth, I'm with you on using(or not) motors. It's just that I don't want to see this event get all weighted down with rules and regulations.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Agreed! The world needs less rules and regs. ;D Fair winds to you to, Pappy!
Captn K,
I just had to back and check out how many of the people on that site were in the race or had signed up ???. As it turns out it is split 7-7.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
P.S. Well, we might need a few more rules or over sight in the banking industry ::) :o ;D.
Quote from: CapnK on September 29, 2008, 09:08:35 PM
*Yes, sailFar members are due some gratis Grog whenever they meet me in person. Except for Frank - I am not rich enough to support that much Grog consumption...
...........................I resemble that remark!
I will be on/near the west coast of Mexico for the scoot so I probably ought to keep my mouth shut (I haven't been accused of doing that in recent memory) However, isn't the scoot for SAIL boats?? nuff said!!!TJ
I figure either there are rules, or there aren't. I would go along with (and I think I at one time argued for) guidelines. We have a few: Start time/place, destination, SailFar type boats. None of it is defined as a 'rule' though, and if someone wants to do their own thing, the non-rules permit it (and actually encourage it, if that is the only way to do the Scoot).
However, with that said, I suspect we will get groups of people with similar ideas sailing together. CapnK and myself, for instance, are both going single handed, via an offshore route, without use of auxiliary propulsion (I'm actually planning on stowing my outboard for the trip). We have a largely similar view of what it is we want to accomplish. Hopefully, we aren't alone. Another sub group is not interested in doing the trip single handed, so will be bringing crew. And I've heard (probably in this thread) about a boat or two who was thinking about doing the mostly inshore route. A different trip altogether. Motors? I'll bet some use them.
The danger is a loss of focus. With everyone doing their own thing, might the event fracture into different factions? Yup. It might. But I'm betting it won't. At least not for the few participants in the inaugural Scoot. If participation and interest grows in future events, perhaps further "Gentleman's" (er, gentlePERSON'S) agreements may become necessary. I sure hope we don't devolve into a rules based quagmire, though (Their are other races for that, though most of them wouldn't allow our boats).
Oh, to answer the original point: I encourage everyone to leave their engines off, or at least out of gear, for this sailing challenge. The choice, however, is yours and yours alone. Such is the beauty of the Scoot.
I'm in the sailing as much as possible group, and probably singlehanding as well. ;)
Adam,
Leave the motor at home...hummm. That would save me about 150lbs.'s in engine and fuel. But then I would have to make a sweep...hummm. Sounds like a good idea. Something to think about.
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
I like the KISS approach.Unless I'm understanding it wrong...it is a marathon runner type mentality ....it not that ya hope to win or had to walk a while, but that you actually "finished" the route. I see the same thing here...the spirit of just 'going and finishing"...not a race but simply a personal acomplishment.