I'm adding roller furling and a new 135 genoa to Dream Weaver this spring. I used a hanked on 130 last year but always in conjunction with the mainsail.
I heard more than a few sailors comment that they often sail with just their Genoa.
Are there points of sail, sea conditions, wind strength, etc. that make it more useful? Are they any things to watch out for? Can it put undue strain on the rig in some circumstances? Does the type of boat (full keel, etc.) make a difference.
What got me thinking is I heard a very experienced sailor comment that it's not always a good thing. Unfortunately he didn't elaborate and the conversation moved on.
It certainly makes it easier to take a quick sail, especially if you have roller furling.
Thanks for any ideas.
Dick
Some quick downsides off the top of my head:
1. Poor balance (tendency to fall off the wind)
2. Underpowered; mainsail and headsail work together (circulation or slot effect), and in any kind of seaway, speed through the water == stability (to a point, of course). Aside from the balance issue, you may notice her hard to keep on course because you don't simply have enough power available to drive the boat through the seas (and it does not take a lot of "seas" for this).
Headsail only is a good tactic for downwind when the wind is a bit too much for all canvas; you can point suprisingly high with headsail alone, but due to the helm balance issue you (a) probably won't like sailing like this and (b) may have trouble tacking.
I don't think it would cause any undo strain on a properly stayed rig.
Laziness.. ;D
That is my reason....
There are days when I only have a little bit to sail. I often go out anyways.
Sometimes when I carry not just my own cares out on the water, but those of others I just need to get underway
I can sail out of my slip, and be under way with just the genny, in a minute or so. Usually I can get out on the water with very little sound, or strain.
The drive is less then optimal, but sometimes you just don't care about making hull speed (although, sometimes it comes close).
The man I bought the boat from had some health issues, and he used to go out like this some times. It was the only way he could sail. Maybe that is why 'Faith' understands, and just sails so well like this. :)
I've sailed my Newport 30 for the past 4 years with just the 150 Genny. I also heard that your not supose to sail this way, and I've read that this really only pertains to fractional rigs. we've sailed with just the genny and a crew of 5 and hit 7.5 knots, it's a great way to sail when your single handed and just want to go for a few hours. But everyone has their own ideas on the subject, if it works for you then it might be right, and it does make a relaxing sail just 1 sail to work. My 2 cents.
I read an article some time ago that analysed several dismastings and it concluded that sailing under Genoa only was a poor choice with "modern rigs" that only had single lower shrouds. I stopped doing it after having read that and my rig is still up.
Quote from: tigerregis on January 27, 2006, 01:17:54 PM
I stopped doing it after having read that and my rig is still up.
Ah, but you cannot prove a hypothesis by showing a negative. You cannot say that your rig would have failed had you kept doing that.
Sorry, it's a nitpick. ;)
Sailing with headsail alone is a long established heavy air tactic; as is using twin headsails off the wind for 'trade wind' sailing. There are countless instances of boats being sailed in this fashion without rig failures, so I think to assert causalilty is a bit of a reach.
Just what force is on the rig with headsail only that is not present with both main and headsail? The weight of the mainsail itself? I'd argue this is neglible compared to the forces produced by the sails from the wind. The direction of the force produced by both sails from the wind is roughly the same (eg, both sails are pushing forward while close hauled). Therefore, if the rig can handle main+genny, it can certainly handle genny alone.
I'd like to see a proper engineering analysis of those dismastings; I'd wager there's more to them than just sailing with genny alone.
Just idle wondering, but...
Would having the mast be under tension from the forces of the main make the spar stiffer in some way, ie; less "flexy", more rigid? This wouldn't matter so much off the wind, but pounding to windward in a seaway it might...
Quote from: CapnK on January 31, 2006, 12:06:59 AM
Just idle wondering, but...
Would having the mast be under tension from the forces of the main make the spar stiffer in some way, ie; less "flexy", more rigid? This wouldn't matter so much off the wind, but pounding to windward in a seaway it might...
I don't THINK so; if you draw a simplified force vector diagram (the easy way, assuming the sails are triangular, and that the force vectors are applied to points at the geometric metacenters of each sail), you get that the forces are roughly parallel in roughly the direction of the wind, right?
For clarification: Tension is "pulling." If you pull on a cleated line, you are placing the line under tension. The mast is not under any tension since nothing is pulling "up" on it. In fact, a mast is generally under tremendous compression load from the downward components of all the supporting rigging.
If I understand your hypothesis correctly, you are suggesting that the sail (full of wind) essentially keeps the mast from bending. Most masts have some bend in them (intentionally) that is concave aft, so that the any force produced by the main, behind the mast, would tend to add to that bend. At least that's the way the force vectors in my mind are working out.
The best I could consider as a difference is the torque on the mast; with both sails up, the torques cancel to some degree; with only one, there is a larger net torque tending to spin the mast about its axis. I doubt this has much of an effect on rig stability, though.
I just don't see how sailing genoa alone can be the sole cause of a rig failure. Perhaps if I could see that original article and gain access to some of the analysis it would help.
This is interesting theoretimical stuff. I hope no expert happens along soon to ruin all this good non-expert thinking... ;)
A mast is bendy (to a degree), right? The rigging is designed to hold it in column, keeping it straight. An adjustable backstay, like that fitted to many racing boats, can exert enough backwards force on the top of the mast to make the *middle* of the mast bow forward, right? You can see that effect in what happens to the mainsail shape. That's the whole point of a tensionable backstay.
So, a genny flying alone would in effect be a *forestay* tensioner, bowing the middle of the mast backwards, right?
Put a main on the mast, tensioned up with halyards, along the boom, and wind, and it seems that the mast would be held more in column.
I'm not attempting to forward the theory that "genny-alone sailing" causes rig failure, in fact I have sailed that way many times (my boats have had double lowers, though). I'm basically just musing aloud over morning coffee. :) However, stresses on an aluminum spar would be cumulative, right?
A single lower shroud keeps the mast in column *athwartships* quite well, but would not be so effective at stopping mast bend in the fore and aft plane of movement, which is where the effects of genny-alone rig stresses would most be felt. At least, that's what it seems like to me. So I'd be more hesitant to sail that way if I didn't have a rig designed to countereffect the mast bending forces from the pull of a foresail.
Does any of this make sense? It does to me, but that may not be saying much. ;D
one thing that must be taken into consideration in this discussion. There is a huge difference in mast loadings when you have a mast head rig sailing with just a headsail, as opposed to a fractional rig sailing with just a headsail.
The fractional rig headsail is applying a force forward to the mast BELOW the backstay. You run a real risk of over bending the mast at the headstay attachment point with that sort of rig.
NOt as big a deal in a mast head rig since the load is directly opposite the back stay.
Offshore cutter rigs usually have running backstays to oppose the staysail stay and in heavy weather they sail under staysail alone- but the force is carried by the running back.
Just something to consider.
Whew! A lot of fancy theories - and I'm sure some of it may be on the money.
Fact is a lot of boats sail under headsail only. Myself included. While I might agree that a fractional rig may suffer more than a conventional rig, surely there are more strenuous points of sail with both sails up.
Quite often when you sail with just the headsail you are not concerned with making top speeds - tho depending on the winds and your point of sail, you might just achieve it. The reason is usually more one of convenience, or as described above, laziness. Cuts out hauling a mainsail up (removing and stowing the cover) and putting it away again. To me, that's reason enough. Especially if I'm just out sailing the bay.
The bottom line is - it probably is okay, but it depends on lots of things - sail rig, your boat, winds etc. If you are thinking of sailing like that on those lazy days and you are only doing 3 or 4 knots (and its not blowing 7 bastards out) I wouldn't give it a second thought.
Cheers!
John
on your conclusions- sailing on a lazy day- yup, totally agree.
There is one point I saw in your post though.
Tehani away from the dock will NEVER have a mainsail covered or the main halyard unhooked. In fact, the halyard is tied to the head of the sail- there is no shackle.
If we are underway, or at anchor out away someplace, that mainsail is uncovered and READY to hoist. Now should we be in a long term anchorage where I've a couple of hooks well sunk, then it gets covered up, but for an overnight, it's always ready. And if the weather is iffy, it'll have the first reef tied in belore we go to bed.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 31, 2006, 02:47:31 AM
I don't THINK so; if you draw a simplified force vector diagram (the easy way, assuming the sails are triangular, and that the force vectors are applied to points at the geometric metacenters of each sail), you get that the forces are roughly parallel in roughly the direction of the wind, right?
I would disagree. You're neglecting to take into account that on many points of sail, the wind isn't pushing you. The sail is forming an airfoil shape, and the lower air pressure on the convex side of the sail is actually "sucking" the sail, and hence the boat, along.
QuoteFor clarification: Tension is "pulling." If you pull on a cleated line, you are placing the line under tension. The mast is not under any tension since nothing is pulling "up" on it. In fact, a mast is generally under tremendous compression load from the downward components of all the supporting rigging.
The way I muddled through it, three forces should be acting upon the mast. Simplified, they're "axial", "tangential", and "normal (or perpendicular)".
axial - imagine grabbing the top and bottom of the mast and pulling apart (tension) or pushing together (compression). Of course, due to the tension in the rigging, the mast is always going to be in a state of compression. This isn't significant when all of the forces on the mast are parallel to the mast itself. The sails themselves shouldn't produce a significant axial strain on the mast, and in every instance I can picture it, it would be in a direction the would relieve some small percentage of the compression due to the rigging.
Tangential - again, imagine grabbing the mast at both ends, this time twisting it like you're wringing out a rag. With all sails up, you're going to have unequal loading tangental to the mast. The main (unless it's loose footed) will distribute (unevenly, but still distributed) the force of the wind/sail/"suction" along the length of the aft portion of the mast. The jib, spinnaker, whatever, in front of the mast will generally place this force on the top of the mast, the only point at which it's attached to the mast. One will usually counter the other (ie - if the main is exerting a clockwise moment on the mast, the jib will probably be producing a counter clockwise moment). Of course, chances are astronomically small that these forces will cancel each other, just one will mitigate the effect of the other, if only by a tiny amount. Worded better by you, below:
QuoteThe best I could consider as a difference is the torque on the mast; with both sails up, the torques cancel to some degree; with only one, there is a larger net torque tending to spin the mast about its axis. I doubt this has much of an effect on rig stability, though.
But in a wing on wing sailing condition, I'm picturing the genny and main to be acting in the same direction, moment wise. In this condition, their forces would be additive, meaning that you're putting more of a tangential strain on the mast with both sails than either sail could create alone.
Normal forces - This is the easiest one to picture. Imagine being a giant, grabbing the top of the mast, and pushing or pulling it. This puts a bending moment on the mast, along the entire length of the mast. The rigging and the deck (on a keel-stepped mast) will resist this bending moment, but some deflection is going to occur. Things like a screw hole or a crack in the mast, or even just a nick, create a stress concentration point. Stresses (axial, tangential, and normal) within the material are multiplied at these locations, due to the geometry of the material. This is why you often see the ocean racing sailboats have a mast broken at a point where something attaches to the mast (radar mount, spreaders, etc..).
Remember that all of these forces act concurrently. So when your normal forces bend the mast from its usual geometry, the loading on the mast changes. The compression force from the rigging is now exerting a part of itself as a bending moment.
Quote
I just don't see how sailing genoa alone can be the sole cause of a rig failure. Perhaps if I could see that original article and gain access to some of the analysis it would help.
I agree with you there Smollett. In my opinion, and from my experience, sailing under either sail by itself shouldn't hurt your rig if the wind/weather conditions are such that you could safely use both. Maybe a better way of saying it is, if the wind picks up and you need to shorted sail, don't just drop your main. That will probably mean you're in more wind than that sail can handle. But if you just don't feel like monkeying with putting the main up, I'd go ahead and leave it down.
sorry, I had to finish this post up quick... and no time to go into fatigue failure!!! dang! IT'S QUITTIN' TIME!!!!! ;D ME1201 Statics/Dynamics is dismissed for the day. Pop quiz tomorrow!
Adam
in all of my offshore sailing only one time did I use any more than a working jib and main.there was one time on the triton on the way home that I actually was brave enuff to put up a 160 jenny.it wasnt up for long .I will swear by working jibs they can be used in a blow or lite stuff.when you feel the mast start to pump the boat its time to shorten sail area before it catastrophically shortens itself.it only has to happen once...and those things dont only happen on TV.
let me say one more thing as per the above.thetime to shorten sail can be anywhere at any time.I remember many times having to go up on deck at absurd hours of the nite in all sorts of sea conditions....complete with skydiver harness as life harness and all. I mean with the vane steering,not changing course(heading up ) to do so....the bow pitching up and cown,the wind and spray blowing....it aint fun.did you ever try reefing the main at 3am from the lee side in 35 kt wind and associated sea conditiop,,,,,on both of my ariel and triton I rigged so it could be reefed from either side.I have a conservative attitude so as to take it easy on the rig.
hello all,
My 2 cents .... I sail with my headsail only all the time, Or I should say I sail with my big genny and my mizzen sail. My boat has perfect balence like this. She never really gets allot of weather helm but with the head and mizzen up I easly do hull speed, and even better I am not walking on the walls. I say go for it. Especially with a furler, If it really starts to blow, roll it up a littel and off you go.
Cheers
D
Kingfish -
Sailing like that seems to me to be one of, if not the best, advantage to a ketch rig. My next door-slip neighbor has a Dickerson 35 ketch, and he says he gets underway, then trims sails until she is on course without him touching the helm at all. He doesn't even lash the wheel - just lets the rudder trail, and the sails do the sailing. I'll have to try that sometime, I've yet to sail on a 2-master... :)
Its funny. The whole time I sailed a sloop, I always thought that having the second mast would be a pain in the neck, especially cause I am always by myself. Now that I sail a yawl, I could never go back to a sloop. It tends to get in the way allot. But it is well worth it in stability under sail. If you ever get a chance to sail one. Try it out, I think you will like it...
Cheers
D
there was a time I sailed with jussa working jib only---to avoid excess weatherhelm.aplace called the "slot" jussoutha molokai----that was very strong wind----it drove the boat allthe way to oahu-----
My take on it is that it is more practical with a masthead rig then a fractional.
Our headsail does about 70-80% of the work depending on what point of sail we are on, so going out with just the heady makes sense sometimes. In fact when we were learning our boat, we started with headsail only, then main only, then both.
Even though when we had learnt a H28 previously it was the exact opposite order (except you can add the second mast and all the combinations to the list).
I think that a foil keeled boat would need both main and genoa to balance properly. We have a medium fin and balance pretty well on the genny alone when we choose to do it that way (it is actually less balanced on main alone).
The full keeled H28 with its smaller jibs (despite being a masthead rig and having a bowsprit) would just not balance on its heady alone. Did fine on main only, but if you were going to want to run heady and no main, you needed to have at least a reefed down sail on the mizzen mast.) Of course the steering on the H28 involved a dead whale being towed off the transom and prodded with a small twig to change directions.
(big ugly transom-hung rudder that was like trying to close/open a barn door in a hurricane) .
One early morning we were sailing back form Queenscliffe, perfect sunlight, about 10 knots of breeze to just ghost along. The entire bay to ourselves...and we nearly got run down by a Benetsnail 45 coming out of Geelong, with a heady only, and the bimini set up OVER the boom, towing three fenders through the water on each side, with both people on board totally oblivous to everything as the music blared out and the guy attempted to get the griller on the aft deck lit.
The girlfriend was sunbathing topless on the cabintop...I presume there was an autopilot steering.
Thye missed us by about 12 feet. If I had not given up on notions of knowing I had right of way and thrown an emergency tack, they would have hit.
It is in no way fair...but when I think of sailing on genny alone, for some reason my mind flashes back to that moment....
Alex.
P.S about three hours later we heard on Channel 16 that a boat that we are 99% was them had continued on and run aground on a sandbank (that was directly in front of the course they had been sailing on when we encountered them) and they were looking for a rescue tow.
The area is magnificently well marked with bouys and clear chanels etc. And at that time of day you could just see the mud and sand banks in that area. Oh well.
Quote from: Fortis on August 22, 2006, 11:31:10 PM
The area is magnificently well marked with bouys and clear chanels etc. And at that time of day you could just see the mud and sand banks in that area. Oh well.
No you can't see that- not if your head is up your butt you can't :o
His obviously was well planted ;D
Quote from: Captain Smollett on January 27, 2006, 01:41:35 PM
Quote from: tigerregis on January 27, 2006, 01:17:54 PM
I stopped doing it after having read that and my rig is still up.
Ah, but you cannot prove a hypothesis by showing a negative. You cannot say that your rig would have failed had you kept doing that.
Sorry, it's a nitpick. ;)
Sailing with headsail alone is a long established heavy air tactic; as is using twin headsails off the wind for 'trade wind' sailing. There are countless instances of boats being sailed in this fashion without rig failures, so I think to assert causalilty is a bit of a reach.
Just what force is on the rig with headsail only that is not present with both main and headsail? The weight of the mainsail itself? I'd argue this is neglible compared to the forces produced by the sails from the wind. The direction of the force produced by both sails from the wind is roughly the same (eg, both sails are pushing forward while close hauled). Therefore, if the rig can handle main+genny, it can certainly handle genny alone.
I'd like to see a proper engineering analysis of those dismastings; I'd wager there's more to them than just sailing with genny alone.
While CaptainSmollet has covered the disadvantages of sailing under a genny alone pretty well, i think his analysis of the mast failure due to sailing under a genny alone is a bit off.
If your boat has a bad backstay, then sailing with just the genny up can put the rig at risk. The mainsail does exert a rearward force on the mast, at least to some degree, especially when sailing close hauled.
If you think about it... the mainsail is held to the boom and the downward force on the boom, as provided by the boomvang and the mainsheet, as well as the weight of the mainsail and boom, will be transmitted to the mast via the cloth in the mainsail. While this force isn't extremely high, it can often be enough to save the rig, if the backstay breaks. On a boat with a bad or weakened backstay, then sailing without the mainsail up, may be the difference between having the backstay snap and losing the rig or not.
The mast is not isolated from the mainsail and the tension that the mainsail is under.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on August 28, 2006, 02:05:18 PM
If your boat has a bad backstay, then sailing with just the genny up can put the rig at risk. The mainsail does exert a rearward force on the mast, at least to some degree, especially when sailing close hauled.
If you think about it... the mainsail is held to the boom and the downward force on the boom, as provided by the boomvang and the mainsheet, as well as the weight of the mainsail and boom, will be transmitted to the mast via the cloth in the mainsail. While this force isn't extremely high, it can often be enough to save the rig, if the backstay breaks. On a boat with a bad or weakened backstay, then sailing without the mainsail up, may be the difference between having the backstay snap and losing the rig or not.
The mast is not isolated from the mainsail and the tension that the mainsail is under.
I am still waiting to see a real engineering analysis of a rig failure CAUSED BY sailing with headsail alone. Many, many cruising boats sail the trade winds with twinned headsails and no main, and I don't think the rate of incidence of rig failures has been shown to be higher in these cases.
In other words, we can speculate all we want to, but I want to see some real data. Has there been a real correlation (forget cause and effect, at this point I will settle for simply seeing a correlation) shown between sailing headsail only and rig failure?
I don't think there has, or we would have ALL read about it in the countless books and magazine articles we read. But rather, the converse IS true - headsail only sailing is advocated as a downwind technique and even a heavy weather technique where warranted by balance.
By your arguement, sailing with main alone would stress the rig more than with both sails, but the stressed area would be the forestay and fittings. After all, the jib/genny IS providing support in the form of luff tension to the rig. So, should we all fly all sails all the time?
I'm sorry if my last comment sounded sarcastic, but I'm having a hard time imagining how say (to take my small boat) 150 sq ft of sail area providing lift (or drag) can stress the rig CONSIDERABLY less than the roughly 60 sq ft of jib only. Here, "considerably less" implies that rig failure is LIKELY with headsail alone and MUCH LESS likely than rig failure with mail+jib.
Heeling moment does not lie - it, along with boat velocity, shows the net force on the rig. Sorry, but we are dealing with very basic stuff here in the form of Newton's Second and Third Laws. Drop a sail, either one it does not matter, and the combined net force vector of heeling moment and boat velocity decreases. In other words, less force on the rig. Period.
The whole thing seems a bit like a cop-out to me: rig fitting fails, someone takes the easy way out and says it is because the sailor sailed with headsail alone.
Captain Smollett-
Please note, I did clearly state that the backstay had to be compromised. If fact, a friend of mine used their main to help hold the mast upright, when their backstay failed, and also so turned upwind to help use wind pressure to hold the mast up. Then they took their topping lift and attached it to the backstay chainplate, to use as a temporary backstay.
Right, AFTER the backstay has failed, the main can help support the rig. No arguements there. The issue I have is the assertion made earlier in the thread that sailing with headsail alone will CAUSE rig failure.
I've pretty much said what I need to say on this topic. It was fun to theorize and speculate, but now, until we see some actual data, I have nothing else to contribute.
Sailing with just your head sail, beats the heck out of
talking about sailing on the internet..... ;D
Quote from: s/v Faith on January 26, 2006, 01:36:40 PM
Laziness.. ;D
That is my reason....
There are days when I only have a little bit to sail. I often go out anyways.
Sometimes when I carry not just my own cares out on the water, but those of others I just need to get underway
I can sail out of my slip, and be under way with just the genny, in a minute or so. Usually I can get out on the water with very little sound, or strain.
The drive is less then optimal, but sometimes you just don't care about making hull speed (although, sometimes it comes close).
The man I bought the boat from had some health issues, and he used to go out like this some times. It was the only way he could sail. Maybe that is why 'Faith' understands, and just sails so well like this. :)
Quote from: s/v Faith on August 28, 2006, 09:53:20 PM
Sailing with just your head sail, beats the heck out of talking about sailing on the internet..... ;D
Boy, you got THAT right, and you can say that again. Here, I'll say it again for you.
Quote
Sailing with just your head sail, beats the heck out of talking about sailing on the internet.....
;D ;D
Quote from: s/v Faith on August 28, 2006, 09:53:20 PM
Sailing with just your head sail, beats the heck out of talking about sailing on the internet..... ;D
S/V Faith shoots, and scores...nothing but net... :D Going out Thursday for a long weekend.
OK guys... many years ago I read in a prestigous yachting magazine about the jib contributing to mast failures. The context was that yawl and ketch rigs must not be sailed under jib and mizzen only. This wil bring down the mainmast, the article claimed. Harumph, dad had us sailing under jib and mizzen for years aboard our old Alden yawl.
Thinking I'd caught him out, I asked dear old dad, a civil engineer and PhD in Physics for an explainantion. He read the magazine article, thought for a bit, and declared it bunk. Then, in dad's inimmicable way, he had me nip off for a pencil, paper, slide rule, book of log tables, etc. and he proceeded to prove it to me using science. I have long since forgotten the proof. Though dad is still with us and as articulate as ever... I would never presume to admit that I had forgotten the proof and needed a review. I accept the premis as bunk.
I challenged him once more during my teen years and lost again. Amazing.
But Norm, as a teenager, you should have known everything in the world... or at least that is what most teenagers think at the time... fortunately, they usually survive to grow out of that.
A properly rigged boat is really under no danger, IMHO, from sailing just under the genny. However, there probably will be some sail plan balance issues, that would not arise from sailing under a main and genny. Lee helm will probably be an issue, as might having some difficulty tacking.
I think I've read some of this before. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=263.msg2158#msg2158) ;)
A "Lab Report" from last weekend:
Friday and Saturday Elizabeth and I took off for some quiet time sailing one of the club's Beneteau First 35s5 sloops. We sailed out of Boston Harbor with no destination in mind. The light air led us into Scituate Harbor Friday night. Saturday, we returned to our berth in Boston.
Saturday, the wind got into the 20s with some gusts reported in the low 30s. We sailed under 120 % genoa all day and on all points of sail. We were feeling kind of lazy and felt that a test of the SailFar discussion might be interesting.
Our brief observations are:
Running is not very efficient but gybing is easy. The boat rolled a lot being underpowered. The genoa is not too stable so it fills and collapses often, rolling the boat. An outboard lead or a pole may have helped. We rigged nothing as the leg was a short one out the harbor to the sea buoy.
Broad Reaching was flat and fast. We rigged an outboard lead. Elizabeth got into the groove steering smartly in the quartering seas. The boat scooted along at 6 plus knots and showed us an "eight" for a brief moment.
Close Reaching, Beating, and Tacking worked out fine. The boat sailed slower than does with a reef in the main in these conditions. Close hauled required steering care or the boat would stall. Inspite of the headsail-only configuration, the Beneteau rounded up in gusts. We'd have preferred no headsail and a reefed main while going closer to the wind.
We watched the mast as we sailed in the chop and swells. The rig is a double swept back spreader arrangement with a 7/8ths fractional headstay and no runners. (Geek-babble) At no time did we sense any unusual loading or pumping of the rig. The conditions were puffy 20-30 kts with 2-3 foot swells and chop.
Observations of other boats sailing under headsails only interested us, too. Both Elizabeth and I commented that deeply rolled up genoas seemed to be very mishappen, round and pulled hard at the middle of the headstay. We wondered if such loading... middle of the head stay vs the extreme ends... lead to any rigging failures. We seriously doubt a little sail could do so.
So... we continue to beat this old horse...
Best regards, Norman
Note: We could not find a place for breakfast ashore in Scituate Harbor! I don't know that I have never been able to find a waterfront breakfast place in a busy harbor before this trip. Remarkable.
Interesting observations Norm. I too have a 120% Genoa and was trying out just the head sail one day. Lots of wind and current, but when I got to the pass, I could not tack. The windage on my boat and the current against me would not let me bring her around enough to tack. I actually was surprised. Once I put up the reefed main, I had total control of the situation again.
Thanks for sharing the observations!!
Interesting story. With the wind and current conspiring against you, tacking is a very real problem. This is compounded by the short keels common on small cruising sailboats.
It is good to test configurations in various conditions. I still like mainsails to be "up." The main sail really does help. Could be why it is called the "main" sail? Haha.
Elizabeth and I purposely sailed the boat in a configuration we would never normally choose. We did so as a test. We both prefer the main with a reef to a headsail only. It is sometimes more work. It always provides control. Sailing in and out of harbor requires control.
Note. in '94, I sailed a 67 ft racing machine across the Pacific. We took the main down only once because of high winds. We reached along comfortably under a small jib and staysail. The problem was the mainsail fabric was compromised. The main was lowered to protect/preserve the sail. There isn't much maneuvering during a 5,000 mile leg.
And the main on a 67' boat is probably a pretty penny... :D
Was out day sailing three days earlier this week, as I spent the week down at the boat.
On Monday, I was feeling lazy and tried sailing on just the 150% genoa and got pretty similar results to what Norm reported, and my boat is rigged like the Beneteau he was on—double swept spreader, 7/8s fractional rig. Tacking was a bit more tricky, probably due to the fact that I'm on a trimaran, not a monohull and I had to be careful not to backwind the genny accidentally. Part of the problem was the amount of wind...was five knots or less most of the day. UGH...
Quote from: Fortis on August 22, 2006, 11:31:10 PM
P.S about three hours later we heard on Channel 16 that a boat that we are 99% was them had continued on and run aground on a sandbank (that was directly in front of the course they had been sailing on when we encountered them) and they were looking for a rescue tow.
And that, *that* is known as "sweet Justice". ;)
I used to sail my Com-Pac 23D under headsail-alone frequently - in fact, the first time I ever sailed it offshore was that way, on a blustery summer day with a good-sized swell running. For the first couple of years the boat had the original aluminum flat-plate rudder, and consequently lots of weather helm in stronger winds. Sail-setting/dousing strategy was thus: main and fore in lighter wind, as the wind picked up, I reefed the main, then dropped it, then switched from the 120 down to the working jib. Keeping the CE as far forward as possible was the only way to sail comfortably.
The boat just wouldn't do much better than a reach under main alone, with that plank of a rudder. After I fitted a foiled rudder to the boat, there was a world of difference in how she handled, and I sailed with both sails more often in higher winds. Never did it seem as if the rig was overloaded under foresail alone. Whenever I thought about "what if the backstay fails", I did my best to put it out of my mind (there was nothing I could do til it happened, so why worry ;)). The standing rigging was of an indeterminate age, but appeared to the eye to be in good shape, so I didn't worry too much. When conditions warranted, I simply did what I could to lessen any strain it was under.
As I rerigged the boat, however, that question came to mind, and so I ran a small extra halyard aft which, in the event of backstay failure, I hoped would allow me the time to do what needed doing to keep the rig up. I used a high-strength climbers line for this, which thankfully never had to serve that emergency function. It did, however, save my bacon on another occasion, a story for another time... :)
I guess my point is that except under extreme conditions, I think most rigs are engineered strongly enough that *
if the rigging itself is in decent shape and tuned properly*, the rig is plenty strong enough to handle the stresses of foresail-only sailing. Tired wire or poor adjustment (or both) are the most likely causes of any rig failing. Avoid those, use good judgement when determining what size of sail to set, and it shouldn't be a problem which sails get set where.
Prudence and awareness naturally dictates that if the boat is leaping off of wave crests, it's time to shorten sail and lessen loads on the rigging, irregardless of what sails you have up. :)
Two things from many thousands of miles of Hobie Cat sailing that perhaps bear mentioning here:
Hobie 16's don't even have a backstay, the shrouds are just led slightly aft. This works fine for jib-only sailing, and when the main is up, it and the mainsheet function as the backstay.
And being able to tack a H16 in 25+ winds with 4-6' swells, I found that that knowledge translates well into tacking a monohull which is sailing under foresail-only. Prior to tacking, fall off a couple of degrees to get a little extra speed. Sheet in and keep the sail trimmed and powered up as you turn into the wind. Watch the waves, and try to time the tack so that you are coming through the eye of the wind *as you come off the back of a wave*. Not only does the 'downhill' help keep speed up, it also lessens the amount of boat-surface-area that the wind can act upon. Let the foresail backwind until you are through the eye, and then once on the new tack you can switch it over. You'll always wind up falling off a bit more than needed, but at least you won't blow the tack. :)
Quote from: CapnK on October 05, 2006, 10:30:28 AM
Hobie 16's don't even have a backstay, the shrouds are just led slightly aft. This works fine for jib-only sailing, and when the main is up, it and the mainsheet function as the backstay.
My little boat is rigged similarly. It uses a "3 stay rig" where the shrouds double as twin backstays.
Did I read a while back that some of the larger McGregor's are rigged this way as well (I may have misread). I was surprised the rig was used on a boat larger than 20 ft.
Positive proof that sailing on just your Genny does not cause your boat to burst into flames and sink immedately. ;D
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/normal_1-18-2007-02.jpg)
A small sailboat was tragically lost today, reportedly due to a fire and sank rapidly. The captain, now missing and presumed lost at sea, would not leave the vessel, screaming something about the Genny didn't cause the fire according to several witnesses and VHF radio reports... ;D
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 23, 2007, 09:44:40 AM
A small sailboat was tragically lost today, reportedly due to a fire and sank rapidly. The captain, now missing and presumed lost at sea, would not leave the vessel, screaming something about the Genny didn't cause the fire according to several witnesses and VHF radio reports... ;D
;D :D ;D :D