Silicone as a sealant on sailboats will always fail. Just look at any old boat that has had it applied and applied and applied.
Silicome is not impervious to water. As a mater of fact over time it will absorb moisture and seperate from the surfaces it was applied to. In addition it contaminates the surface for any further work.
If you going to seal something seal it right. Pick a product designed for what you are doing.
Life Caulk for bedding. 3M 4200 or 5200 for sealing and bonding.
Note: Only use 3M 5200 if you never ever plan to take the item apart again. It will bond so well you will damage whatever your taking apart if it has been used.
sikoflex is the same as 3M New skin on same old sausage.
YES!!!
Ok, I am a bit of a fanatic on this issue. I have been know to all but tackle people walking down the docks with a 'Home Depot' bag, and a tube of silicone poking out.
____________________________________________
post on the Ariel site, when I had first been afflicted
QuoteSilicone.
This is truly an evil evil thing. I removed all the hardware from the area surrounding the lazzerette hatch this afternoon. Sadly, it was not bedded in 4200, or even 5200. It was gooped in Silicone sealant.
I know I will have to remove it, and grind all of the gell coat off that has been in contact with it, and then hope for the best.
The reason for this post is simply to say, for anyone who may not know.
Do not ever use silicone sealant on any surface on your boat that will ever need to be painted!
It really does not stick well, and it wicks into the paint/gelcoat and makes it nearly impossible to get paint to stick to anyting in the future!
Thanks for listening. I may be better now
I later had to remove more fiberglass after the paint would not stick to the places the silicone had sept into the glass. Sanding does not remove it all, you have to grind or even chisel it out some times to get at it all!
Here is a link to the thread.... (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=891&highlight=silicone) Lots of good comments on the evils of silicone. [/b] [/color]
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Ok, that ruins my temp plans. Ok, what is good for doing some temporary patching until one get the time to take the whole leaking mess apart to reseal it correctly.
I always thought Silicone was a good / convenent temp patch.
Depends on what you are doing.
If you are just looking for a general 'goop it on, I know this is not the right way, but I am gonna take it apart and fix it later' solution then....... Just don't do it.
:)
No, just kidding, (but it is really easier to just do it right). I carry a small tube of 4000 in case something like that came up.
???this 4000 is that another 3m product?
Well looks like I will need to change my recommendation for sealing stuff. I just read the link on Silicone sounds bad. Glad I read it before I did any more damage , like this weekend when I had some projects in mind.
Ok, so I go to West Marine and I ask for ...?
some 4000 to stop a small leak around a port, until I take it apart an use Butyl to seal...?
And when I take the santions off to reset them and seal, I use ??
An for those little holes in the cabin where stuff was mounted inside the cabin...I use expoy or 5200?
And to seal the deadlight(?) why are they called that? I can also use 4000 until I replace them with screw on Lexan with a gasket of...?? Butyl ?
I knew that silicone did not last but I did not know it was damaging. I thought it was a good gasket/sealer.
First no Santa, now this...next duct tape will be a vilian. :'(
For temp repair use one of the soft setting 3M products OR Sicoflex its the same thing. When filling an old screw hole DO NOT USE EPOXI. Sorry I got a little excited there. Sanding down pure epoxi is very very hard since the resin is pure. Be sure to make a mixture of Epoxy and Talc or micro balloons like the West Sytem uses. Make a paste like bondo. Oh and yes you can use bondo. This will alow you to sand it smooth without damaging ajacent surfaces. Then you can paint or touch up.
darn, s/v Faith! Gotta opinion?? lol Good info though. I have to get some sealing done on a hatch cover. i was actually thinking to lay a bead of 5200 around and let it completely cure.. then it should be a secondary seal. Maybe?
Ever get that heater in? Sure wish I had beat ya too it.
Quote....s/v Faith! Gotta opinion?? lol Good info though.....
Yea, I got a little worked up, but this was after I had to destroy perfectly good fiberglass to get rid of the Silicone........
Is that 5200 being used as a 'gasket'? It sets up really hard, and will make it tough to get the hatch (frame?) loose if you ever need to replace/reair it. What part of the hatch are you putting it on?
Ok, so I've trashed the Silicone And I picked up some 4200 as a replacement for doing stuff eg: leaking ports gasket, attaching carpet, leaking hatch, etc
Good? no good?
;D
Yes Zen, I think so.
There is a fine line between 'Dear' and 'darn' in the acromyn DPO (darn Prior Owner) .
Proper maintenance is a big part of the difference.... IMHO.
(I also had to use a CLAW HAMMER to remove the bondo that a DPO had used to repair the transom once.... ::) Now, bondo was cheaper, and maybe easier to use (doubtful) then the proper epoxy based filler. But the Bondo absorbed water through the paint and failed.
Just like the cabin top on which the paint was peeling...... I found that there was no primer used..... and even found places where dirt was traped in the paint.
I may well screw things up too, no one's perfect. But at least I will screw it up trying to do a good job.... with the correct materials.
sorry folks but my friend Margret (she prefeeeerrrrrs to be called "Margo") has found an excellent use for silicone.you know she was at one time a carpenters dream....but since she has had silicone implanted into her pontoons....well this has made her very bouyant indeed. she has also become very prominent in a crowd ya just cant miss her..now she is the reason boats are preferred to as "she"...and "Margo" is a very important piece of equiptment,,,she performs a verrrrrry important function ....and I am very sure to always keep her well oiled indeed.........
Starcrest: you are the man as far as I am concerned. I purchased the boat I currently have, partly on on your recommendation ( we have the same boat), but once in a while i go ???
what is he talking bout ... :D
OK folks 3M makes a product that removes sillycome - Its 3M Adhesive remover in a red and white can. It may take a while for stuff thas eeked into gelcoat but DO NOT sand it as that just spreads it around and pushes it into the scratchmarks the sand paper is making.
Deadlites are plates that go over portholes to seal them during a storm incase some floatsome slams into the boat at the port level. They seal with a gasket and the pressure from the thumbscrews
Carpenters Dream - is a chik that is flat as a board and easy to screw, I'm guessing that this one got a really nice boobjob amd her sexual appetite is the same as it always was. VIVA LA SILICONE!!!
Okay, let me stir the mix here. I use a common product that cost me around 4 bucks a tube and can be purchased at most all big box stores. Its a PL product, called Window, Door, Siding sealant, and works wonders, and yes it can be cut with a razor knife when removal time is required. Yes its got some adhesion properties, but not to great that you cannot work it out. It flexes, and in most cases, as long as the temperature is moderate, will cure in a day.
The only down side of it, it does take a week or so to properly cure for painting it. You may notice some form of dirt collection on a wide bead, is used, since it will cure but remain sticky a bit. But after the initial cure of it, mineral spirits will wipe most of the tackiness off. But for a good seal, and even improper fits with hatches to curve decks and hulls, it works great. Thats my opinion, of course and like freebies, worth to most exactly what was paid for it, in most cases. Try it before you place in on a part, if skeptical of it, in you idle time while sitting around the puter, in spare junk we all have in our garages, or cabinets.
If you do not use it all, then just place a flat head, cheap screw driver in the end of it, one of those long ones that you find in the bins that stare you in the face at the checkout, that the tips also break off the second time you use it under load in the ends. If you have cut the holes small enough, then you do not need anything to save it till your next required fix. If you wait to long and have to cut the tip off to use it, then a sharp razor knife will also remove the stuck leftover off the screwdriver for your next "corking" job.
Use-ing 5200/4200/sekoflex/or similar , as a seal...
I put the reqired "bead" in place and cover it with common kitchen shrink-wrap being carefull to leave no creases - close the hatch cover or similar without tightening excessively and let cure - remove shrink-wrap - and voila - a perfect seal .
If you are trying to seal a piece of Laxan regular silicone, 4200, silkaflex is not the product to use. It will eventually leak because of the Laxan. It takes a special sealant. Especially if your are rebedding a port glass or hatch glass. The hatch companies including Bomar use GE UltraGlaze Structural Glacing sealant SSG4000. It is for bedding Laxan in port or hatch. It is very Black. It should not be used anywhere else to bed anything else. Yes it is a silicone! It was designed for just what I said to use it for. Bomar is one of the largest producers of hatches. This stuff is very difficult to find. It is not found at a building supply like Lowes or Home Depot. If you call 877-943-7325 or www.askgea.com or 866askgesa they will assist you in locating a supplier. You can also use the black goo that is used to seal auto windshields. I think that is what was used to seal my fixed side windows. If you are bedding deck hardware use 4200 and don't tighten it down until it sets. Dan
Although it might be tempting to use Silicone for temporary sealing jobs, this may be one of it's worst applications.
Silicone Sealants always leave an oily/waxy residue, to which nothing (including silicone) will stick. These residues are extremely tenacious! Deep abrasion is the only foolproof way to remove these residues, though some recommend cleaning with solvents, surfactants, or proprietary silicone remover(s).
FWIW,
Gord May
OK. point taken. You guys hate silicone. What about when the manufacturer recommends silicone, and actually indicates that other products like butyl caulks are NOT to be used? ???
We need to know the context of recommending silicone. Next, in almost all cases, when doing maintainance and upgrades some form of finish work is required, maybe not in your case, but silcone does not hold paints as a rule of thumb. Also in the issues of caulks on a boat, there needs to be some form of adhesion because of the moverment of parts, either by natural causes and elements and by the seaway motion that takes place in the "washing machine".
I would think that most do not like any adhesive caulks with the bad rap of knonw names as 5200, because of down the road of removal, which may or may not be an issue, even using the properly chosen adhesive caulkings or seleants. But when water penetrates even 5200 parts, this is not an issue.
The makers of such caulks are evolving each year, providing a better and more user friendly product that is indeed a workable and favorable product that gives us both adhesion and and with some persuation, removal of the parts which has required the bonding between to different and mismatched surfaces.
I hate to disappoint you all but I have used silicone (standard hardware store issue 2 bux a tube) to seal thru-hulls with fantastic results.
Well I am glad that you had success with your silicone. But its been my experience and observation over the last 37 years that silicone is a complete nightmare in almost all cases, therefore requiring my previous posting. So for an added two dollars, that is required for one tube, over time, I like to think that I have saved someone some added grief, either with water problems that have made its way into a core causing aded repair work, or water on a person's head while sleeping on anchor. Cheers
after having to remove many things from what will be my old boat----I noticed /remembered that 6 years and 4 hurricanes ago (these were direct hits from francis jean katrina and wilma) many of the stantions --and the tabernacle--many deck fittings were infact sealed with silicone. there were no leaks---no drips---no errors----and if 5200 was used there would be no way these things could have been removed.infact the mast head modification utilized 5200 and no way did I bother to try to remove it. the tabernacle was from a 50 foot boat it is over 1 foot square at its base and is/was thru-bolted thru the deck and utilized eight 3/8 inch stainless steel bolts or eye bolts and each one was sealed with------you guessed it-----silicone.infact some ports were sealed with a latex silicone- even cheaper---like 1.50 for a tube----no leaks---no drips---no errors----I will say this tho---it did not do to well as a way to lock the nuts in place---they did back off too easily----perhaps they werent tight enuff----but they did not leak whatsoever---and not to be a rebel but to K.I.S.S. I will use it---above the waterline---that much I will agree.
This has been very interesting. I am going to be installing 5 beckson ports in the next few weeks. They say not to use anything but 100% silicon on their ports. What does I guy do?
Also I have 4 bomar plastic hatchs to install. Would 4200 be safe to use?
Sunset
My wife's sister just bought a used car on which silicone was used to seal the transimission pan in place. It did not work too well, and the dealer had to repair it before she took possession.
;D
I forgot the name of it but threre's another type of silicone that is made to withstand the high underhood temperatures of automobiles.I think its its called "formagasket: and is used for such things as waterpumps,headgaskets and that sort of thing.I would not use marine seagoing silicone one a car unless its one of those amphibious types.but you have a K.I.S.S. choise.that 5200 stuff costs about 10bux,inwhich case ya may need 10-15 tubes.the acrylic laytex cost me 1.70 per tube,{for above waterline only} so do the math.also before you use anything like that it sure helps to read the directions on the tube to learn how to use it properly.I will swear by it,,,before I swear at it.
Yeah, there's also permatex - but those are all used for sealing, not for attaching. Perhaps my post was not clear. They had ATTACHED the tranny pan with the stuff, and it DID leak terribly (and smoked).
(I added that anecdote to the discussion just for comic relief).
IIRC, the West Marine 'advisor' gives 'acceptable' uses for various compounds. I think plain old silicone is quite versatile. I've found it works well to follow the manufacturers recommendations on when to and when not to use a product.
Just my $0.02.
The silicone for high-temperature applications is RTV silicone, which is self-vulcanizing IIRC. I used to use the stuff when my gearhead twin and I would restore 'Stangs and T-Birds.
Silicone is a perfectly good sealant when used properly. Do not use the ones that smell like vinegar, as they cure using acetic acid and can cause some serious corrosion damage if used with any metals.
Silicone is not an adhesive, and that is the mistake most people make. To use silicone properly, you need to leave a certain thickness of it in between the two surfaces. After it is fully cured, you can snug up the fasteners, and the pressure against the silicone "gasket" that has now been formed will prove to be quite watertight.
Yes, silicone can leave behind a residue that can cause serious problems with adhesion for later sealants, paints, lamination, etc. It isn't all that difficult to remove silicone as there are many cleaning products that will remove it quite readily.
Unfortunately, there are no good agents for removing silicone oil that wicks into the glass when any silicone based caulk or sealant is used.
I am sure that the through hulls Eric sealed with silicone did not leak, that does not mean that it was the best thing to use though. Sadly, what it does mean is that whoever tries to glass over those holes in the future will think so. The residual silicone oil will weaken the repair.
There is a miracle release agent that was designed to undo bonds made with 3M 5200 adhesive. I am sure that it's tiny molecules can penetrate and release things bonded with silicone also. I am also sure that it will not remove the silicone oil from the surfaces.
Windows are the only thing 'Good old Boat' recommended using silicone on in it's article on sealants last year. This is because the glass/lexan/plexi all expand and contract differently then the fiberglass they are mounted to.
Adriftatsea's advice not to use RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) silicone on metal is good advise. Anyone working with electronics is instructed early on not to use RTV that smells of vinegar because of the accelerated corrosion the acid causes.
"Form a gasket" may be fine for your water pump cover, but when it comes to non-engine related boat repair, the smartest thing to do is "Just say no to silicone".
Personally, I think I might try the West system approach... but it is a bit extreme... okay...make that very extreme. The West system, if you've read their literature uses epoxy for most bedded deck hardware. I'd still use silicone or neoprene for fixed ports though. There are some good paint surface preparation solvents/washes that do a pretty good job of removing traces of silicone from fiberglass. But silicone is generally not the best of sealants to use in a marine environment. As a general rule, it should never be used below the waterline... at least according to much of what I've read, including Don Casey's books.
I posted this on the cruisers forum, I realize I had not posted all of this in this thread so here it is. yes, before you say it
I know I am somthing of a silicone bigot... ;D
Quote.....it was my rant on silicone on the other thread... I am teased about being a bit over expressive on the subject. It is the result of some personal suffering based on silicone and DPO's...
Silicone is an inexpensive sealant that works well as a compression gasket (as has been mentioned in this thread already). I Like silicone for mechanical gaskets, where metal on metal (or metal on plastic) sealing where slightly (very slight) imperfections in surfaces may cause leaks. Something like waterpump (with care not to allow any globs to fall into the cooling stream for fear of causing clogs).
I am sure that the port mfg cited likes silicone, as it does not harm the ports, and allows some flex between the metal port frame, and plastic (plexi) or glass ports.
Having said that, I believe that there ought to be a law banning silicone on docks, in marina's or anywhere within 10 miles of any boat that is not designed to be scrapped before it is 10 years old....
.... Ok, maybe a LITTLE bit harsh... but just a little. ;D
Why>?
Silicone oil (present in silicone caulk) is made up of VERY small molecules. It bleeds from the caulk into any porous or semiprous medium. While the silicone comes off easily, the oil remains.
Silicone is impervious to water, alcohol, acetone, or any petroleum-based solvent. There are some 'release agents' marketed for silicone, they are expensive and only work to remove the silicone caulk, not the oil. There are 'silicone solvents' marketed, they can wash silicone off the surface but not out of the underlying material (in my experience).
They are also pricey, so you are not going to want to use any real quantity of them.
Surfaces that have had contact with silicone not only will not hold paint, they do not prime well (primer does not bond) nor will epoxy bond to these surfaces.
Auto painters will tell you that silicone wax makes their job difficult. The silicone causes 'fish eye' which they can add an additive that increases the surface tension of the paint, but can promote chipping. THe problems with auto paint are not as serious since sanding can remove the paint which is where the silicone is carried.
Fiberglass, and wood 'wick' silicone oil deep below the surface. Sanding does not remove the oil, and can actually make the problem worse by spreading it around.
In my experience, I have painted, and had the paint lift. I then sanded and washed repeatedly with different products... to no avail.
I even went so far as to conduct 'pull tests' where I epoxied a block of scrap wood to the fiberglass I had tried to clean and prepare..... I was able to knock the block of wood off the epoxied (west, unthickened) surface with a tap from a screw driver handle..... :'(
After several attempts to address these problems I took to using a sharp chisel to carve out the top 3/16 or so of the contaminated glass, and built up new glass to cover it...... much more work then it should have been. >:(
Admittedly I am a bit anal about some things, but watching paint chip off of a newly painted surface can really ruin your day. Even taking such extreme steps, I found an area the other day where I did not get it all.. and there is a small crack in the paint where it failed to bond (like you get if you paint over the waxy blush west leaves.)
Everyone does what they think is best for their own boat. I won't even use silicone on the window frames, as I might want to repaint the fiberglass that surrounds it. My hull was laid in 1964, and she is a 'good old boat', maybe that is why I think about the maintenance I do with a longer range view. I plan to keep her for some time, and want whatever I do to her to be good work, or at least something that leaves the boat better then I found it.
OBTW, I think it was last year Good Old Boat did an article on caulks and sealants and they only recommended silicone for windows, and cautioned against getting it on fiberglass and wood.... so it is not just me. ;)
From the movie "It's a Wonderful Siliconeless Life!":
"Every time you hear Craig scream, you know that, somehow, somewhere, silicone was applied to a boat."
;D ;D ;D
I understand that Santa puts silicone in Craig's stocking when he's on the naughty list. :D
Quote from: Coastal Cruiser on March 07, 2006, 06:00:19 PM
.....its been my experience and observation over the last 37 years that silicone is a complete nightmare in almost all cases.... for an added two dollars, that is required for one tube....
Yup. :)
FWIW,
The price of 3M's sealants have gone up again, and I have been looking around at some alternatives.
Here is a great polyurethane sealant that is sold at many home repair stores.
PL Polyurethane Window, Door & Siding Sealant (http://www.stickwithpl.com/Upload/PLProduct/21_ImageLG_window_door.gif) (http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products.aspx?ID=Polyurethane-Window-Door-Siding-Sealant)
It is around $5 a tube. Works well, and has excellent adhesive (not to strong, not too weak) and will not screw up your boat.
FWIW,
The sealant I posted above looks like the same stuff Mike talked about in this post earlier in this thread;
Quote from: Coastal Cruiser on January 15, 2006, 08:29:37 AM
Okay, let me stir the mix here. I use a common product that cost me around 4 bucks a tube and can be purchased at most all big box stores.
Its a PL product, called Window, Door, Siding sealant, and works wonders, and yes it can be cut with a razor knife when removal time is required.
Yes its got some adhesion properties, but not to great that you cannot work it out. It flexes, and in most cases, as long as the temperature is moderate, will cure in a day.
The only down side of it, it does take a week or so to properly cure for painting it. You may notice some form of dirt collection on a wide bead, is used, since it will cure but remain sticky a bit. But after the initial cure of it, mineral spirits will wipe most of the tackiness off. But for a good seal, and even improper fits with hatches to curve decks and hulls, it works great. Thats my opinion, of course and like freebies, worth to most exactly what was paid for it, in most cases. Try it before you place in on a part, if skeptical of it, in you idle time while sitting around the puter, in spare junk we all have in our garages, or cabinets.
If you do not use it all, then just place a flat head, cheap screw driver in the end of it, one of those long ones that you find in the bins that stare you in the face at the checkout, that the tips also break off the second time you use it under load in the ends. If you have cut the holes small enough, then you do not need anything to save it till your next required fix. If you wait to long and have to cut the tip off to use it, then a sharp razor knife will also remove the stuck leftover off the screwdriver for your next "corking" job.
Just to throw something in here.
We keep our 4200, 5200, etc in the vegetable crisper section of the fridge. In fact, one of the drawers is devoted to boat maintenace stuff like that- sealants, dust masks ( keeps the elastic from going bad) boxes of gloves ( same)
We find that the caulks last for MONTHS that way with no problems.
So I am working on one of the many hundreds of projects around the house that have held me captive since we have returned. One of ongoing series of repairs involves the containment of a large quantity of water in a hole in my backyard....
So I have this robotic pool cleaner called a Polaris. It has refused to do anything but lay on it's side and spin in circles. So... I take it apart for the third time and pick through the 'water management tubes' and find little bits of clear snot that seem to be blocking the intake to the crawler motor....
Yes, Silicone rears it's ugly head again! I recall a motorcycle I was working on over 20 years ago when I pulled wrenches in a small motorcycle shop in Louisiana. A customer had brought in a dirt bike that we had rebuilt the motor on. I remember spending hours digging bits of sealant out of the cooling passages because of the 'if a little is good, more is better' approach to engine repair.
So I am thinking... Maybe silicone REALLY is part of a broader conspiracy to bring the western world to it's knees....
So Charlie... is there anywhere you consider silicone to be acceptable for use??? :)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 19, 2008, 03:36:06 PM
So Charlie... is there anywhere you consider silicone to be acceptable for use??? :)
Track slides ;)
I prefer McLube SailKote for those. :)
;D and I didn't even comment on it in this thread!! ;D
Laura keeps a spray can of silicone for use when she is sewing on sunbrella or heavy dacron sails- she sprays the seam so the needle passes through easier.
Otherwise it isn't even in our gear nowhere, no how.
And ALL of our sails go on wooden masts ( on both boats, all three masts) so we have metal track and metal slides. I don't have the problem of them sticking ;)
Try Tide powdered laundry detergent and turpentine mixed to remove silicone oils,I read it somewhere that Dow Chemical suggests it. I have never had to try it yet.
Quote from: dean on July 22, 2008, 09:58:32 PM
Try Tide powdered laundry detergent and turpentine mixed to remove silicone oils,I read it somewhere that Dow Chemical suggests it. I have never had to try it yet.
I am kinda late to this party, but I wanted to comment on this. I have another hobby - historic woodworking. I use terps a lot. It will thin oils pretty readily, but it is important to realize that thinning is not necessarily removing. The detergent in the mix is probably an attempt to get the oil to surface (detergents are surfacents), but I would be surprised if it can break down that mix very effectively. What I am getting at is that if you use terps to remove a small spot of concentrated oil, you up end up with a larger spot of oil in a much lower concentration. If you do it a few times, it hopefully becomes negligible (when X approaches zero and light bends like hot taffy :D). How much is negligible for silicone? I don't know.
BTW, a few mentions of PL products. I have used a few. They make a PU based roofing sealer that has very similar properties to 4200, but it isn't brite white. This is something of a generalization, but their PU based products that are marketed as adhesives tend to gas off more and what looks like a good sealant will be more like foam under the skin. They are good adhesives, but not sealants. The PL sealants seem to be a bit more solid inside. So pay attention to which it says it is (adhesive or sealant) and realize that you may need more than one product (though the aforementioned roofing sealer is a pretty strong adhesive).
I have been using this lately:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/arbarnhart/polyseal.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/arbarnhart/polyseal1.jpg)
It has those magic words - "Contains no silicone". It comes out of the tube white but dries fairly clear.
silicone remover from 3M!
Must get some now...
Thanks for the remark about that product.
Norm
I'm getting ready for spring and that means I can get back to work on my boat. I'm planning on using 3M 5200/4200, but at $10.00 a tube it seems there should be another altrnative. Seems to me when I first started coming to this site a year ago I read a thread about using PL200 or PL400 as they were comparable to 3M products and about half as cheap. Does anyone femember this? Or how about using vulcem caulking? Marc
Yup,
Right here. ;D
(I went ahead and merged your question into the thread with the answer). ;)
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 01, 2007, 10:50:04 AM
Quote from: Coastal Cruiser on March 07, 2006, 06:00:19 PM
.....its been my experience and observation over the last 37 years that silicone is a complete nightmare in almost all cases.... for an added two dollars, that is required for one tube....
Yup. :)
FWIW,
The price of 3M's sealants have gone up again, and I have been looking around at some alternatives.
Here is a great polyurethane sealant that is sold at many home repair stores.
PL Polyurethane Window, Door & Siding Sealant (http://www.stickwithpl.com/Upload/PLProduct/21_ImageLG_window_door.gif) (http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products.aspx?ID=Polyurethane-Window-Door-Siding-Sealant)
It is around $5 a tube. Works well, and has excellent adhesive (not to strong, not too weak) and will not screw up your boat.
Faith, thank you very much!!! There will be absolutely no silicone on my boat. Marc
It depends on what you are trying to seal. Bomar uses GE Ultra Glaze Structural Sealant SSG-4000 to seal Lexan in their hatch frames. This is what they sent with my replacement Lexan for my Bomar hatch. No one carried this in Savannah and I had to special order it. This is what I used in my windows on my Columbia 4 years ago. I have not had a drip, leak or ooze of water intrusion. It only comes in black. Dan
Help!
I just removed my ports to install new ones and the openings are full of silicone, please tell me the best way to prep the openings for the new ports.
Should I scrape them with a puddy knife, then us some kind of cleaner (what kind) then sand the opening?
Thanks
You will want to use the least destructive method first. Use a razor, then scotchbrite (abrasive) pads. Get as much of the silicone off of the surface as you can.
You can try to flush with whatever your normal prep solvent is... but NOTHING will break up the silicone oil. There are some substances marketed as 'release agents' that will break the adhesive bond between items bedded in silicone... but none that I know of actually claim to be a solivent for silicone.
You can 'test' the around the port with plain old spray paint. If you spray the spraypaint and you see 'fish eye' (little holes where the paint draws back from the surface) then you are going to have problems.
What are you doing next? Are you just replacing the ports? If so, you may consider a silicone/poly mix to bed them. I would not use them on a surface that had not previously been smeared with the evil silicone.. but it may be a way around the contamination if you are just re-bedding the original ports.
Good luck! I hope you don't have any trouble. If you can avoid re-painting the surface that has been contaminated, and your ports do not rely on adhesive (good clamping force between the frame and the port) you may not have much of a problem.
Well today is the day!!! Since work is slow I haVE A 3 DAY WEEKEND WITH A SPECTACULAR WEATHHER REPORT!!! I want to prime the inside of my boat and then move topsides sanding etc. then prime and paint topsides and start putting everything back together. Can this be done in 3 days? I don't know but I'm sure as heck gonna find out. Still waiting for fuji to send me a new disc so I can download pics. I'm pretty excited. As soon as it is light I'm waking up the neighbor hood. Have a good day. Marc
Good luck and keep us posted... :)
Ahoy !
Dont post much as I have way more to learn than share but thought I would pass along info of a dandy product for removing silicon from portlight installations etc.
Manufactured by DAP, it is appropriately called " Silicone-Be-Gone".
I tried a few different products with no success. Applied this, didnt even wait the recommended 2 hours and it peeled right off.
Now I can finally move forward
Dan,
I am glad that this worked for you. I looked at the mfg's web site (http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?BrandID=204&SubcatID=27), and this is not a solvent but more of what others have advertised as a 'release agent'.
QuoteSpecially formulated gel softens unwanted silicone for easy removal prior to applying fresh sealant. Also great for removing excess cured silicone. This fast acting formula removes most silicone residue in 30 minutes to one hour. The low-odor formula won't harm most surfaces. Indoor and outdoor use.
Works well for exactly what they say... the problem is it appears to work by attacking the agent that bonds the silicone, rather then diluting the silicone it's self.
The reason this is important is that while it removes the silicone on the surface, it does not get the oil out of the gellcoat so painting / epoxy work / calking is still prone to failure.
I hope this is not an issue for you, and that your job goes perfectly. I only bring this up so everyone knows that
silicone is still and
evil substance, the use of which should be avoided .
Got to use the 'silicone is evil' line the other day...was met with a blank stare.
Glass Optimists have the side air bags in a formed-in compartment. We were filling the bags on the training fleet (Youth Sailing starts next week!), and on one boat, when I removed the cover, I found the compartment wet. Noticing some of the other boats had drain holes but this one did not, I set about to find a drill.
Some other guys were doing some rudder repair work with epoxy, so, one of the program leaders (also a bit of a wig in the construction hierarchy at Hatteras Yachts) asked them to dab a little on the holes I drilled to seal up the raw edges.
One dude said, "you sure silicone wouldn't be better for that?"
::) :o >:( :'(
I muttered "silicone has no place on a boat," and the wig softly said, "no, use epoxy."
Oh well. I've come to adopt the phrase "pushing a wet noodle up a rope with my nose" and have found occasion to use it no less than 5 times now in the past week.
It seems silicone and it's use just won't go away...(I've gotten to curse MANY applications of the vile stuff here on my boat...indeed, 90% or so of the MAJOR structural repairs I've been working on are at least partially due to the use of silicone to non-seal).
Epoxy breast implants .... Ehheeeeeeeww ! ::)
Quote from: Gary Guss on April 04, 2011, 01:21:30 PM
Epoxy breast implants .... Ehheeeeeeeww ! ::)
Solid man, solid! :D :D
Quote from: Leroy - Gulf 29 on April 04, 2011, 02:12:34 PM
Quote from: Gary Guss on April 04, 2011, 01:21:30 PM
Epoxy breast implants .... Ehheeeeeeeww ! ::)
Solid man, solid! :D :D
AND you have to watch how much mass you're trying to cure. It can get real hot.
Todd
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 04, 2011, 11:13:06 AM
....One dude said, "you sure silicone wouldn't be better for that?"....
.....seems silicone and it's use just won't go away...(I've gotten to curse MANY applications of the vile stuff here on my boat...indeed, 90% or so of the MAJOR structural repairs I've been working on are at least partially due to the use of silicone to non-seal).
It's cheap, and it is know by many as a sealant... bathtubs, fish tanks... and the perils of using it are
often only apparent once one has paid their dues....
.... paying dues is not popular, so silicone continues to be. ::)
I have been very happy with my silicone sealed portights. 1/2" plexi with a RTV (room tempurature vulcanizing what ever that tells you) black gasket silicone. The main thing with them though is that the silicone acts as a gasket not an adhesive, the windows are screwed in with stainless screws and I let the silicone cure before tightening the windows down. It stays soft even in the sun, most other products like sikaflex or 5200 will harden and eventually the window after some unpreventable twisting will leak, but the silicone is still as soft and rubbery as the day it first cured.
One huge problem with silicone is the residue it leaves( among other problems). Should you ever try to paint over where it was (or where it got by accident) you'll find out why those of us who get paid to work on boats HATE the stuff.
We're now switching to Butyl rubber. Got a caulking tube of it from Ace hardware. Re bedding companionway trim with it tomorrow
Charlie: Amen! I have switched to 3M strip calk ( available at car parts stores) and carry a package aboard at all times. This stuff cleans up easily with mineral spirits Or even diesel fuel in an emergency. Fair winds Phil
Quote from: haidan on June 20, 2011, 11:20:25 PM
I have been very happy with my silicone sealed portights. 1/2" plexi with a RTV (room tempurature vulcanizing what ever that tells you) black gasket silicone. The main thing with them though is that the silicone acts as a gasket not an adhesive, the windows are screwed in with stainless screws and I let the silicone cure before tightening the windows down. It stays soft even in the sun, most other products like sikaflex or 5200 will harden and eventually the window after some unpreventable twisting will leak, but the silicone is still as soft and rubbery as the day it first cured.
Silicone can function as a compressive gasket. It does not function well as a sealant.
The problem comes in where it is allowed to come in contact with wood or fiberglass. The silicone oil
seeps into the gellcoat, and even into the fiberglass it's self.
Paint will not stick to it, neither will epoxy. Some make the error of thinking that automotive solutions will work for fiberglass... in automotive prep work, silicone is a big problem because of silicone based waxes. The difference there is that the silicone is MUCH easier to remove from the metal surface then it is from fiberglass.
Many have suffered as I have with this problem... I have had to actually chisel out sections of fiberglass after experiencing epoxy and paint failures where someone had slathered silicone sealant onto a surface to 'stop a leak'.
Ah, interesting didn't know about the gelcoat thing, I'm using it on painted steel, and the black silicone makes a nice visual framing for the window so no need to paint it
Sillycone belongs in boobs not boats!!! Actually seeing the hard bumpers on so many women these days, don't even think it works on boobs.
My first boat had all the hardware bedded in Sillycone from the factory. Had to R&R every piece ofhardware and rebed with LifeCaulk because all the fittings leaked like a sieve. My current boat was riddled with SPOT sillycone everywhere above and below the water line. I've completely stripped every peice of hardware off the boat to be sure that I banished the poop. About the only good I can say about sillycone is it's easy to remove hardware because it doesn't stick to anything except what you don't want it to stick to. Getting the globs of it out of screw holes and the port surrounds was a pain.
LifeCaulk does not harden with age. I've pulled up stuff I bedded 30 years ago and it still adhered to the surfaces and remained pliable. LifeCaulk (polsulfide) doesn't shrink so no need to go back and cinch down fasteners later. Both 5200/4200 and LifeCaulk actually require moisture to cure. Out of the water, they pull it from the air. Because of the need for water to cure, they work just as well when applied underwater so great for repairs. LifeCaulk doesn't seem to harden in the tubes as quickly as the polyurethan sealants do.
Certain plastics like Beckson ports will crack if sealed with 5200/4200 (polyurethane) or LifeCaulk/101 (polysulfide). To cure this need for sillycone I won't use anything that is not compatible with the 'Poly' sealants. Not fond of the way the Beckson ports look anyway.
If You have something to seal that will have lots of thermal expansion caused movement like large portlights, use Butyl. The only large port in my boat that didn't leak was sealed with Butyl. The sillycone sealed ones all leaked but were real easy to take out.