Sentimental value

[oded kishony]

Friends:

I was reading an article in the most recent edition of Good Old Boat about a couple who own a 'Folkboat. They decided to retrofit a diesel engine into their boat which  originally carried an outboard on the transom. They claimed in the story that their outboards were too undependable.

Question #1

Are outboards generally considered very undependable?

In the story the couple complained about buying dirty fuel. Wouldn't that also be an issue with diesel fuel? Which tolerates dirty fuel better, gasoline or diesel engine? I wondered why they didn't prefilter the fuel (just a funnel with a strainer gets rid of a multitude of sins) and also mound an additional filter/separator for their outboard.

Question #2
They spent over $16,000 for a new diesel. To me this is clearly a waste of money.
The issue of irrational expenditure of money is something that comes up in my line of work. When someone hires me to restore an old violin that great grandpa used to play, I always re-assure them that sentimental value is a real value and not to ignore or discount it. How do you evaluate sentimental value of a boat?

Thanks,
oded kishony

[CharlieJ]

In the last two years we've put over 2000 ICW miles on the boat with the outboard pushing. It's never missed a beat, except for one time it wouldn't idle well. Found droplets of water in the tank, got them out and solved the problem.

I personally feel  that the new 4 stroke outboards are just as reliable as any inboard, assuming the proper maintenance.

Dirty fuel can be a problem in smaller ports away from the US. Most people who cruise long distance carry some sort of filtering funnel for use when they are wary. Fuel from a 55 gallon drum sitting under a shed on the dock can be a problem weather it is gas OR diesel. THere's a common funnel that is well known, but I can't remember what it's called for the life of me. Baja filter I think.

Personally I can't imagine a Folkboat with an inboard- the storage they  gave up was astonomical. That isn't a very big boat after all.

[Captain Smollett]

I don't think in principle outboards are any less reliable, but they do seem to bear that reputation.  Considering only two-strokes for a sec, they are (or can be) very susceptible to fuel problems (improper fuel:oil ratio, water in the lines) that in some cases owe to the engine AND the entire fuel system sitting outside.  Most of the time, though, I think it is 'operator error' and perhaps lack of maintenance.

My outboard is a 1979 Johnson and it literally sat in someone's back yard for 10 years.  I pulled the plugs and dried them off (they had condensation on them) and it started second pull.  There was gook in the carb jets and the water flow was less than I liked, so I did a carb rebuild and replaced the impeller.  It generally starts second pull, and mostly runs "pretty good."  Most of my problems with it are fuel related, and specifically water-in-the-fuel related moreso than 'dirty' fuel.  A nearly 30 year old engine still going strong seems purty reliable to me.

It is my perception (and I may be wrong about this, I have VERY limited experience with diesels) that diesel engines are 'more reliable' than gasoline.  Maybe that is because they don't have that additional system that can fail (ignition), but I have read a LOT of articles and stories of problems with inboard diesels.

I agree with you, Oded.  I think I could have put $16,000 to better use than a re-power; for a couple of grand, they could have had a brand new 4-stroke outboard, kept below deck less crowded and not had to drill a big hole in the hull/keel.

About your question on sentimental value: that is usually 'priceless.'  I have around here some things that belonged to my father that I will never part with, no matter how much someone might offer someday.  I don't *NEED* these material things to remind me of him, but they were part of him, and part of our relationship as I grew up.  Some stuff of his I got rid of without batting an eye, but these others?  Nah.

As for boats, well, if the boat carried me for many miles in safety, it would (is) considered something like part of the family.  Shoot, I'm the same way with cars.  I'm not one of those guys that can just buy and sell cars/boats like they are "property."  I guess the crux is how long have you had and what did you do with it.

[Frank]

IMHO...outboards are very dependable.AND...if troubles do arrive..you simply 'carry' down to any number of small engine mechanics.If however,your diesal has you stumped....$$$$$$$ it is a 'service call'..by a marine diesal mechanic to your boat.If that OB is toast..a new one with warranty in under $2000. A new diesal ??$$$??$$??. Many OB's with proper use go what seems like forever.I have a lil 2hp dingy engine I bought new in 1983...still starts 1st pull...ya can win bets with it.An OB reguires minimal maintainance BUT you gotta use your head.Do NOT run them with the water pick-up out of the water...the lil impeller will pack it in VERY quickly that way.Even a 'bit' will ussually start the premature wear.No water-no cooling-no engine.The carb MUST be kept clean.A 2stroke OB left sitting with old gas in the carb will build up a greenish 'varnish' residue in the main and pilot jets.The more it builds..the smaller the hole in these jets become...too small and the engine will run lean and eventually burn a hole in the top of the piston. REAL simple..run it out of gas before storing or loosen off the nut on the bottom of the floatbowl to drain it.The biggest 3 advantages of a diesal are..1-less volitile fuel 2- better fuel economy(carry less) 3-with the inboard ,the prop is under the boat and not likely to come out of the water and cavitate while in rough seas. OB's used right,if not oversized will give good/long service and be economical at a fraction of the cost of a diesal and free up storage space too.Really depends how/where you intend to use your boat

[Frank]

Capt. ...oops..guess we were typing at the same time. A simple reply to 'sentimental value'.......there is none...quite simply because if you'r sentimentally attached to something...it is 'NOT for sale'. at any price at any price

[Fortis]

I think it depends on a number of factors. Foremost of all is the boat itself.

For something with huge overhanging stern like the folkboat, an outboard (even a long leg) would have its prop see-sawed out of the water for half the time in any kind of seaway.  So in that application, it is problematic. Also if you are doing long range crusing with a narrow sterned boat (again like the folkboat) then performing any kind of maintenance while at sea becomes an interesting excercise. All this without the fears of "what if it just gets swamped by a wave or falls of the bracket or gets stolen while anchored" type concerns of the crew.

On other boats there are different concerns. Boats with transom-hung rudders tend to have problems accomadating an outboard in a truly otpimal way...It tends to just get scruched on in a "it fits...kinda" sort of way and for 98% of the time that is a good enough compromise. I delivered a H28 that had blown its inboard a decade ago and the guy had fitted a 12hp outboard of the transom. I was not enamoured of the system, but it saved the guy a few grand in getting his outboard fixed and that is what worked for him being able to spend time out on the water. For me it would have been the tipping point and I would not have put up with it (ie, the hassle factor exceeded the enjoyment factor, for the owner it still hadn't).
As another point of difference, I found that the extra weight on the entreme end of the boat really added to the rocking horse movement of the H28, even under sail. (but you need a lot of outboard horses to drive 6tons of H28, so the weight may not be a huge issue with smaller outboards).

Now the majority of our model of boat came out with a cockpit well that an outboard could be fitted to. Brilliant system. It puts the prop just in front of the yacht's rudder, where it belongs. It means the prop is always submerged and that service is easy as could be. A little loud when you want to have a peacful conversation in the cockpit on the way back into the marina...but that is about its only sin...From my point of view.
But when we found the E26's as a class and my wife and I decided that this was the kind of boat for us, Margaret pointed out that the major hassle for her would be lifting the outboard engine in and out of its well and since the engine on the boat we were playing on was smaller then what I wanted for our boat, this suddenly presented a big problem. Now, Maragret is pretty keen and not weak...but at five foot nothing she was facing a serious challenge to her abilities to handle the boat alone and a problem to her confidence hanging over her head as a result.

So when I went looking for our E26 I basically looked for one with an inboard and was prepared to pay more for it. We ended up finding one of the factory built prototype test bed boats that they used to decide which engine to fit as standard in the model after ours. We got the extreme end of the bell curve, so to speak. 20hp of Yanmar to drive a boat that weighs 2.5tons. I think a Mc Gregor could outrun us...but we can motor against a seven knot current and win every time! (And on one memorable occassion that may have saved our boat and our safety. which means I think it paid for itself right there and then.)
The point is that now Margaret has no hesitation or crises of confidence about being able to do every darn thing on the boat from the keel to the mast-head. (which she has been to on the bosun's chair and I have not. I get to wait till the mast is lowered).

And as the reasons why people sincerely belive that inboards are superior and more reliable in their kind of sailing and thinking...here is another one.
A E26 just like ours had a fuel leak of its 2stroke outboard gas. It resulted in an explosion as the boat was sealed up on its mooring for several days in hot weather as the bilges "filled" with fuel. The owner returned to the boat and took off the splashboards. Moments later there was a sizeable explosive ignition of a fire that killed him and totalled the boat (it had pretty much burnt to waterline by the time help that could actually put out a GRP fire arrived.)

As an alternative I have deisel. Sure, it is possible that my boat would catch fire too...but nowhere near as easily and not in an explosive manner.
I also get about 3 times the range per litre on the deisel..which means smaller tanks on my smaller boat for decent range. Now that makes sense for me!

And yes...you can buy deisel outboards...but the price is close to six times that of their equivalent 4stroke gas model. Might as well fit a good inboard.


Anyway, hope that may have prompted some thoughts.

I know I would certainly never go for an outboard over an inboard. Even our dinghy is driven by an electric outboard.

Alex.

[Fortis]

By the way...as if the first thign I wrote was not long enough.  :)

I did not notice you were a luthier, oded kishony. How long have you been doing that for?
Margaret is a violinist and has been for forever (that kind of family, thank god she isn't the one that got lumbered with double bass...though she would need a ladder to play it). I know that a few years ago there was real progress with plastic violins that could survive boat life. There is no way in heck Margaret would be willing to take her primary or secondary instrument on board...I was thinking of looking for somehting that would not rot or go to heck in salt (pity the strings will still die, and they are not cheap) as an alternative for her to look at. It would make life much better if she had a violin on board when we did the serious distance cruising...

Also by the way, $16k is an insane amount of money to pay for a deisel inboard conversion. I frankly cannot imagine how one would pay that much for an engine to push a 26footer without igniting $10 notes as a light source to facilitate fitting the stern gland.

A conversion with reconditioned quality deisel for a 26footer around these parts runs to $4500 or there-abouts in Australian money! Using a brand new engine you are looking at around $8000.

Maybe they wanted a folkboat you could waterski behind? They have converted it into a hydrofoil maybe?

For less then $16K I could convert out my boat to a fully electric drive system and a charging generator.


Alex.

[oded kishony]

Hi Alex:


>I did not notice you were a luthier, oded kishony. How long have you been doing that for?<

Made my first violoin in 1977... so it's almost 30 years.

>>I was thinking of looking for somehting that would not rot or go to heck in salt (pity the strings will still die, and they are not cheap) as an alternative for her to look at. It would make life much better if she had a violin on board when we did the serious distance cruising...<<

There aren't any very good plastic violins, although there is a very prominent acoustician who's been working very hard at it. I doubt it will be cheap though.

As far as the strings are concerned I'd suggest nylon cored strings.  A bit of wax on the metal windings will prevent corrosion.

I don't see a problem keeping a violin on board as long as it remains dry (stored in a dry plastic, sealble bag)

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a violin discussion page, so email me privately and we can discuss this further. ( kishony(at)earthlink.net replace "at" with @ )

You can also check out my homepage for details on my life and training (in Italy)

http://home.earthlink.net/~kishony/

Best,
Oded

[s/v Faith]

Great posts, enjoy the grog.  ;D

  I read the article and took something different away from it.  It sounds to me like they went through the same process Rose and I went through.  Trying to objectively consider the merits of 'super sizing' or upgrading what you have.  Their focus was on larger boats, and in the article they laid out their reasons for sticking with the 'sailfar' concept (be pretty neat if we could get Good Old Boat to call it that).  ;D

  I think I might have done something similar if I had a folk boat.  The Ariel has the outboard in a well, and I like the arrangement.  I have driven a boat (A-30) with longish overhangs and an outboard on a bracket on the transom.  It was horrible.  Yes, I mean horrible.  You could not easily reach the motor without great effort.  The Pearson Ariel Owners association web site has many accounts of people moving the outboards to brackets on the transom, and having safety problems.

  The cost of a refit, or repair is whatever the owner will elect (IMHO).  I would not shy away from a diesel, but I have driven diesel vehicles on the road for nearly half a million miles and do all my own maintenance.  I also pull my own wrenches on outboards so that issue is pretty much a wash for me. 

  I am going longer on this thread then I intended, but it seems to me that their conclusion was valid.  The $16,000 they spent on the re-power, was worth it (for them) since a larger boat would detract from their sailing, and cost at least twice as much.

[oded kishony]

It seems that their first assumption of 'super sizing' as their only option is the first error. I think they could have bought a 25-28ft full keel/shallow draft boat with an inboard diesel for far less than $16K. Of course I'm not here to judge them or second guess their decision   :) 
I'm more interested in the decision making process...

~OK

[AdriftAtSea]

I do hope that the $16,000 was a typo and that it was $1600 for the re-power... I know you can get a pretty decent boat for $16,000. 

As for outboards... I think that they are fairly reliable nowadays...however, they are not appropriate for many boats.  The boat really should be designed with an outboard in mind, as the outboard should be located in such a position that it can stay submerged, even in fairly heavy seas. 

[Captain Smollett]

as the outboard should be located in such a position that it can stay submerged, even in fairly heavy seas. 

Not the WHOLE outboard submerged, though.   :o :o

;D

[AdriftAtSea]

Submerging the whole unit would probably be a really bad thing... just want to make sure that the prop and the water intake are submerged.

[oded kishony]

>> I do hope that the $16,000 was a typo and that it was $1600 for the re-power... I know you can get a pretty decent boat for $16,000.<<

This was not a re-power but a new engine installation where there was no inboard engine before.
I just double checked. The engine, parts and installation came to $13,000 but with the addition of sundries  like feathering prop, access hatches etc the final total was $16,000 (sixteenthousand clams)

I saw a  1980's Cape Dory 25D with rebuilt engine  in very nice shape for not much more than that.

~OK

[AdriftAtSea]

Ouch.  I hope the price included the naval architect's time to see if this would change the balance, handling, safety of the boat.

[Zen]

that is what I was thinking Oded