Anchor locker.
Like so many boats, my anchor locker is currently just the void that was left over forward of the V-berth. My current rode 300' of 1/2" 3 strand and 50' of chain, just lies there in the bottom.
I also carry 200' of 5/8" storm rode in the bottom of my cockpit locker, and my 25# CQR is sitting on top of it.... There is no way I can get to this anchor/rode without 30 minutes notice.
There is also a 'ready' stern anchor, a smallish Danforth that sits in the Lazy-rat, atop s couple yards of chain and 75' of rode. This is my 'lunch hook' and 'parking brake'. I have deployed this anchor in seconds when things were not as I wished then might have been. ;)
So, here is what I am thinking.
I want to put the CQR on a roller on the bow where it belongs.... (ok, collective DUH!)
But then I want to divide the anchor locker. Frank has yet to post it here, but he has a shelf in his locker (this is your cue Frank, please share)
I was thinking I might divide the locker with a vertical bulkhead, so there would be a port and starboard locker, the port locker will hold the 'storm rode' and be segregated from the working rode. The port locker will also have a shelf about 2/3 of the way to the bottom. This would free up the bottom third of this space for storage space (like in Frank's locker).
I am thinking I can gain strength in the bow, and pick up storage at the same time.....
What are you doing? How much rode do you carry? Where do you store it?
The divided locker is a good idea - Depending on a few things It may or may not add any significant strength. Biggest being how strong is the bulkhead forward of the V - if its just tabbed inplace then you wont gain much - if it is pretty solid then it will add a good bit. HOWEVER this could be considered a crumple zone (again depending on the design) and a vertical divider could actually be a mistake. If you were in an accident (why were you thinking about extra strength anyway) the compression strength of that dividor is probably greater than the shear strength of the factory bulk head SOOooo an impact that would just flood a water tight area might now flood the boat. IF you divided the locker side to side instead of fore and aft then you may gain some strength in a side impact which would be better than on the nose as that is less likely to be damaged in an impact anyway due to shape and amount of glass (this area is usually twice as thick on hand laid boats - on choppergun boats it can be thinner - OUCH)
As far as what I do - I keep all the anchors in the lazerette. I take the rode forward and as I glide into where I'm gonna anchor I pitch the anchor over the side. I can pay out the rode from the tiller for scope. The boat sets the anchor and spins me around - pitch out the stern anchor to keep it pointed at the beach and from swingin into the clueless powerboaters and its time for a brew ha ha - Oh Yeah my boat does not have an Anchor locker
I agree with captedteach regarding the "crumple zone". Installing a solid bulkhead fore and aft to add strength is probably a bad idea. It would create a "hard spot" on the stem and the interior bulkhead. This is the reason that some bulkheads are tabbed in and some are mounted more substantially. The way I've dealt with it is with a collapsible triangular frame fit with a cargo net which sits on teak strips bonded to the hull and interior bulkhead about 3/4 of the way down in the locker. This leaves one anchor rode sitting up and room for the other below it. I have one of those oblong deck fittings and can actually run both rodes out of it without tangling them.
Craig - I know you don't want to do it, but... ;)
Take out that Monel water tank, divide that area into 2, and run 2 parallel 3-4" diameter PVC tubes down into each area from a chainpipe cover on deck. Drop your rodes down through them. It'd keep the chain weight lower, a bit farther aft, and keep 'em separate. But...
Since you aren't going to do that :D - look at Aussie Geoffs chain locker, and note how the floor of it was built up a bit, and drains through 2 limber holes above the waterline at the bow. I like that idea, but you would need to make sure that the locker area was well sealed off from the cabin. Pounding into some seas would force water into those holes, but I guess they could be sealed/plugged somehow when under way. Maybe with scupper flappers, or something similar.
Food for thought... :)
I redid my locker...put a shelf higher for rode/chain .It drains forward with a hole over board .The hole is approx 24in above waterline with one of those lil hole cap/covers over it facing aft.This freed up a LOT of room under the shelf for extra gear-storm sails etc. Pic in gallery
I have one spare rode in a five gallon pickle bucket. Easy to stow. Easy to move it all to the bow or sturn.
I am not going to anchor in water any deeper than I care to pull rope or chain in.the holdin ground in kee hee lagoon was pure mud...good holding but what a mess on deck.had to splash the anchor several times to get the mud off ...and ya better hurry 'cuz meanwhile yuzza' driftin leewud inta hoozyamacallitz boat.sorry folks as much as I despize the nooo yawk accent evry nowaden it cumzout.
The pic IS posted in 'gallery'...may be on 2nd page. There is a pic of one devided vertically too... as you imagine it ..somewhere on the triton site....good idea !!
THank you Frank,
Here is Frank's locker;
(http://www.sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10004/normal_Anchor_locker_2.jpg)
Your work inspired me to start thinking about how I was going to better use this area.
Kurt,
I did think about that.... but the tank works, and was replaced in 1984 (like yesterday in my boats life) with a new monel tank that I use...... there is no taste to the water.
I think I can get much of the weight down low, and keep the tankage that is already there. I do like your idea of moving it midships, but I need weight fwd as 'Faith' tends to be down by the stern with just a couple people in the cockpit. I did not figure out till I started racing just how significant the difference is, but she is as much as 1/4 to 1/2 knot slower when the stern is low.
captedteach,
The Pearson Ariel does not have 'crumple zones'. Back in 1964 when she was laid up, they just piled on fiberglass, apparently in hopes that whatever I manage to hit will crumple..... ;D Hope that continue's to work out for me. :P
I plan accordingly.rite now I am locked into the inter coastal waterway where it is seldom more than 30 feet deep. therefore at the present time I have about 15 feet of chain on about 5o feet of line with a 13 pound hi tensile danforth.for the minimal icw motoring I am limmited to thats all I need.In no way shape or form do I care to be hauling in 35 billion feet of chain rope or what have you ,ever.
Need some advice from you guys on bow pulpits. I am trying to post a couple of picts of what I have on the boat. Having some difficulty, so not sure they are going to print. If not, I will put them in the gallery. I figured out today how to do that.
Anyway- I currently have 1 bow roller on my bow pulpit... it was designed into the pulpit. I carry a 17# Bruce on it. I have a 35# claw that I want to mount off the pulpit as well. Can I purchase and mount one to the teak pulpit, possibly with a board underneath as a backing plate? Will that work or do I need to do something different. I really need to have both anchors off the bow for convenince. Help me out guys.
(http://C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5COwner%5CMy%20Documents%5CMy%20Pictures%5CWeb%20Pictures-Resized%5CBow%20Pulpit.bmp)
(http://C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5COwner%5CMy%20Documents%5CMy%20Pictures%5CWeb%20Pictures-Resized%5CBow%20Pulpit%202.bmp)
Connie -
With 2 anchors, you'll probably need to offset them both on rollers to the side, so they'll live together comfortably up on the bowsprit there. You could hang one upon the pulpit, but I think it'd be easier/more secure if they were both on the 'sprit.
Would it be possible to move the one roller you already have, so that it is offset more?
Also, though it looks like 2 rodes would fit down your chainpipe, I think that leading them both there would be asking for a snarl. You'd probably want to install a second chainpipe. I've some pictures of how I did that, if you are interested. It's easy, takes an afternoon of not much actual work to do it.
Hey Capn- hate to be picky with the boss ;), but that ain't a "hawse pipe", it's a "deck" or "chain" pipe.
Hawse pipe is the hole that an anchor rode passes through going over the side AFTER leaving the bits, windlass or cleat.
Deck or chain pipe leads through the deck into the anchor rode stowage.
Otherwise, great advice ;D
I sit corrected. ;D
Will edit the post... you are right, sir. Ya old salt... ;D
I want to be able to switch out the chain/rode onto the anchor of choice with the shackle and only have 1 in the anchor locker. The roller currently on is built into the bow sprit, so it cannot be changed. If I bolt on another stainless channel with roller on the end, should I use a backing plate? I will have to extend it out so the flukes do not get hung on each other.
OK Here are the picts so you can see what I have.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10065/normal_Bow_Pulpit_2.jpg)
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10065/thumb_Bow_Pulpit.jpg)
Hey ..I remember Pixie Dust when you pulled into Snug Harbour Boatyard.. You we're looking for a recomendation regarding the quality of the work. I couldn't give you one because they we're my friends. I hope they didn't mess things up too bad. ...Anyway.. I don't think you've got enough platform to hang 2 claw type anchors.. if you can make the 35lb work with the roller you have why not use the little 17lb as a stern hook??? and perhaps mount a larger danforth on hooks on the bow rail
Hi, Lars! Welcome aboard! :D
Hi Lars! I remember speaking to a gentleman... I think you told me they do a good job except do not let them do engine work. :) Was that you?? I was pleased, except they were supposed to change out my cutless bearing. They put her back in the water and did not tell me they could not figure it out until the day I went to pick her up. :(
I am actually keeping my boat in PC now, in Watsons Bayou at the long dock across from the Mercury Testing Facility. She is pretty content with her new home.
Are you still at Snug Harbor? If so, stop by and say Hello!
Yeah that was me...I didn't know i was still in my gentleman phase back then. Sounds like you did ok at the boatyard.. I've had to go into dry dock while i'm taking care of my elderly parents. Boat is on a flatbed trailer here in their driveway about halfway to atlanta. I've got some friends over there at watsons. I hear there will be some demolition in the next few weeks
There has already been a lot of demolition in that area. Unbelievable. Condos are going to take over the waterfront I am afraid. Boatyards are becoming few and far between.
Lars, at least your boat is where you can see her. :) Hope all goes well with the other.....
I was in St. Augustine last week while in my travels and routed myself to Sailors Exchange, a consignment shop for us boat people. What a fun place to explore in. I bought a Bow Roller to mount a second anchor on PD. I am taking it down this weekend to see if it will fit her pulpit, if not, I may mount off the side of the bow.
I also purchased off Ebay this week a used Delta 22# anchor to use as my primary and will use the Bruce 16# as the secondary or stern anchor. I still have my 35# claw to use in hurricanes or "I wish I weren't here right now blows". ::) (dirty word).
I have 3- 30' pieces of chain to use as needed on anchors of choice.
I also have a very small danforth with 15' of chain. I have never used it yet.
I think I have the anchor situation covered now... of course the waterline on my wee vessel might have to be raised. :D
Fortis was designed with the danforth anchor in mind, so the forward locker and such are all about a flat-pack anchor.
Fortunately this is adequate most of the time (we went up a size (biggest that fits the locker) and I welded on some re-enforcement strips that also help it position first time, every time. Then I got it re-galved). We run only 30 feet of chain, but it is much heavier then schedule and has a loop at the rode end, this acts as a secondary drop weight and helps keep the chain laying flat along the bottom. The locker holds a mere 40 meters of rode. This is our everyday coastal and bay setup.
It is relatively light, given the locker is just below deck and thus a goodly way above the waterline.
For serious stuff we have a number 3 SARCA that lives down below. The Sarca is an amazing anchor and I only wish it took up less room. If I ever feel the need to hang an anchor off the bow for instant use, it will be the SARCA. In the front of our bilge, just behind the foot of the compression post is an elevated bit of netting on which rests 25 meters of goodly chain in a net bag I sewed for it. I can have it out of the bilges (where its weight is doing us some good) and up on deck without banging into the varnished niceness belowdecks (originally we just had the chain sitting in a coil down in the bilge. The one time I needed to grab it in a hurry, flopping bits of it tried to eat my galley bench and companionway steps, so I made a bag with handles and zip and little clips that mean the bag can stay clipped to the lifelines while the chain is deployed.)
We also have one of those three pronged folding anchors that lives in the aft-decl locker. Never seen daylight in earnest.
The time that we want to anchor fore and aft, we swap the sarca onto the bow and use the danforth off the back. Just takes a little planning in advance.
When we go off shore, all chain and anchors (apart form the SARCA, which doesn't fit) get reloacated to the bilge and onto their clips. I am a big fan of transfering the weight down low...and it is not like I am going to be able to reach bottom with all my rodes and chain tied end to end anyway. Basically, at that point the anchors all just become things that can dislodge, move around and cause problems at 4am by bashing the hull.
The conversion of the boat form coastal to offshore mode is usually achieved by spending half an hour hove-to...which is good practice anyway.
Only needed to do it once on ours so far, but there will be many more. Have done the same off-shore mode shift on numerous other endeavours and have found it very worthwhile.
The thing with a small boat for oceon cruising is that you can do it, but it is more involved and labour intensive to optimise.
Alex.
On the Pretty Gee, I have two anchors. The secondary is a 13 lb. Danforth that was the stock anchor for the boat from the manufacturer. It is on six feet of chain and 100' for 1/2" three-strand nylon. The primary anchor is a 33 lb. Rocna, which has 30' of 5/16 G4 high-test chain and 280' of 5/8" three-strand nylon. I'm thinking of replacing the 13 lb. Danforth with a larger one, or adding a larger one to the boat.
The 13 lb. Danforth is normally in a cockpit locker, and often used as a stern anchor. I also use it as a "lunch hook" but prefer the heavier Rocna if I'm out overnight.
I'm in the middle of adding a ground tackle system, including a manual windlass, a chain pipe, and bow roller. It is beginning to look like I may need to re-build the anchor locker, as the current one is probably not deep enough to work properly with the chain pipe.
I've got an 8 lb Danforth with 15 ft of 1/4" chain and 150 ft of 7/16" nylon rode as my number #1 anchor. I've kept it just about everywhere from on the st'bd settee to under the V-berth to in the cockpit.
I like the forward storage of the anchor on my boat, because it DOES seem to help fore-aft trim a bit. But, I also like the 'anchor from the cockpit' strategy while singlehanding or shorthanded. Here's the strategy I am looking at, with MANY thanks to Charles B. on TSBB (this technique is just cool no matter how you slice it):
A fixed line is attached to bow cleat, run outside all rigging to cockpit. This line is routhly one boat length, and for purpose of convenience, Charles calls it an "anchor painter." It stays rigged all the time.
When anchoring, the anchor rode (anchor stored in cockpit) is bent to the 'painter' and the anchor is dropped overboard. A snatch block bent to a "stern line" is attached to the rode as well. This 'stern line' is roughly two boat lengths long.
As the boat drifts down onto the anshor rode, the strain is taken on the painter (for anchoring from the bow) or the stern line (if for some reason you want to anchor stern-to ). Essentially, the painter - stern line combo forms a kind of "Pardey Bridle."
The beauty is that you not only anchor from the cockpit, but weigh from the cockpit as well. If you sail/motor to "up and down", you can use the stern line to haul in on the rode and weigh the anchor directly into the cockpit. No going forward for anchoring or weighing.
I realize this is a small boat technique and many with boats over about 20 feet would not want to keep anchor, chain and rode in the cockpit. I should point out that Charles sails a Windrose 18, so our boats have similar LOA's. But, the cockpit stored anchor and stern-line arrangement has another advantage as well.
I have been for quite a while contemplating using my anchor, chain and rode as a drag in 'rough' conditions. I was leery of doing that, though, because I have not read of anyone trying it; I therefore was wondering if there was not NEGATIVE about doing it. BUT, Charles does exactly that. With the cockpit stored anchor and the 'painter'-stern-line bridle system, he can use his anchor-chain-rode as a drag (for example, from the stern with the stern-line cleated at both quarters). If he needs the drag off the bow, let the painter take the strain, or as a bridle with painter-stern line combo taking the strain.
If he is shoaling waters and the anchor digs, well, he just adjusts the bridle set-up for the best ride until the blow blows out, weighs and sails on. No fuss, no muss.
In my opinion, this has so much to recommend it that I have been doing a lot of thinking about pros-cons and how-tos for a larger boat (with heavier ground tackle).
I won't mention my #2 anchor set-up at this time, since it is so weak as to be nearly worthless. That's on the list to beef up.
The only problem I can see with the idea of using a cockpit-located anchor as a drogue and having it dig in, in shoal waters, is the shock loading that would occur. It is more than likely to rip the cleats from the boat, unless they are far better secured than most docking cleats. Just my $0.02 on it.
I have a Jordan Series Drogue for that purpose instead. Due to its design, it creates much lower shock loads than a sea anchor or parachute type anchor would.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on August 25, 2006, 02:15:41 PM
The only problem I can see with the idea of using a cockpit-located anchor as a drogue and having it dig in, in shoal waters, is the shock loading that would occur. It is more than likely to rip the cleats from the boat, unless they are far better secured than most docking cleats.
If I"m not mistaken, with the drags out, boatspeed is only 2-3 kts. That might be a little faster than the snubbing loads those cleats take while docking, but the rode is nylon and will stretch some, too. Charles has been using this technique for decades, and he has not reported pulling out his cleats (he sails his Windrose offshore out of Miami).
Good to know. :)
What is the fascination with having all that heavy anchoring gear way up in the bows? Weight there really slows the boat by increasing the pitching moment.
Having a suitable anchor ready on the foredeck is prudent. The storm anchors, etc. can easily live in lockers which are nearer the middle of the boat and as low as possible. That doesn't make them inaccessible but does make them "out of the way."
Also... imagine the panic if either rode becomes fouled and you have to scurry below, up into the forepeak, and disentangle a rat's nest of rode... while anchoring. Compared to taking a neat coil from a lazarette, the anchor rode locker in the peak is the complicated solution. It is best kept simple, clean, and clear.
In the 60s my family cruised the Bahamas. We were amazed to watch the fishermen anchor. The hook was lashed to the stern with the rode leading forward, outboard of everything. The boat would glide around the anchorage looking for the right spot. When found, the skipper would toss the anchor over the side as the boy forward payed out some scope. The momentum of the fishing sloop helped set the anchor and turn the sloop into the wind. Compared to our operation involving three or four people, the Bahama method was pretty simple. I have used it when single handing on deliveries. Works like a charm
Best, Norman
I'll have to try the fisherman technique with my boat. I'll probably have to modify it a bit to deal with the three hulls though.
I don't keep much in the forward anchor locker, other than the anchor and rode. One of the anchors is stored below or in the cockpit, and the primary is the only one kept forward. Unfortunately, storage is a huge problem on a trimaran, especially a smaller one like mine.
I've got the same giganticus anchor rode locker up in the bow that Craig has, and feel the same way about weight up and forward as Norm does. I'll be converting most of that space under the deck for use as other stowage.
I've seen in several books, including I think Casey's "This Old Boat", the suggestion to have a large diameter pipe leading belowdecks down into as low a space as possible, to serve as a conduit into the rode storage. That's all good (and I plan to use it), just so long as the opening in the deck is large enough to help keep the rode from snarling up. My old boat came from the manufacturer with a relatively tiny opening in the deck, and it caused trouble more than a time or two before I fixed it. Something to keep in mind. :)
Personally I like to have the rode up on deck, flaked out and ready for proper running, prior to dropping the hook. Short of trying to anchor in a running, bouncy sea big enough to flop the rode around and entangle it (a problem which I've thankfuly yet to deal with), it works really well. I use 30' of chain on the anchor end, and nylon from there back to the boat. Usually I lead the chain over by hand (to protect the deck/hull), but I've had instances where it was just too 'busy' to do that. The 'rode led aft' plan would be a good tactic in those conditions I bet, and sounds like a good technique to develop as a skill... People who have to do something every day usually come up with the best way to do it, right? :)
For other than my primary, I keep rode in a small soft duffel bag made of water-resistant, coated nylon material. The top of the duffel is zippered, which allows a big opening for quick deployment, and disentanglement if needed. The handles make it easy to move around the boat.
Dan - I think that probably just about everyone here is "storage challenged", you are not alone... ;D
Quote from: CapnK on September 17, 2006, 10:08:09 AM
Dan - I think that probably just about everyone here is "storage challenged", you are not alone... ;D
This is true... but I don't have a deep bilge to keep stuff in either.. :D My bilge is about 2 inches deep at the deepest point.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on September 18, 2006, 07:46:31 PMThis is true... but I don't have a deep bilge to keep stuff in either.. :D My bilge is about 2 inches deep at the deepest point.
Sounds like good storage for a couple of fishin' rods... ;D
As part of the foredeck project I have revisited the anchor locker.
I have to work out where the locker will be before I install the new anchor rode fitting. What I have settled on is an additional bulkhead, 15" ahead of the one already in place.
The original anchor rode storage locker on an Ariel is large enough for a small boy to sleep in. What it lacks with out an enclosed head, is a place to put wet foul weather gear. In talking to a friend of mine who has cruised for years on an older Primrose designed boat, he said many times that his greatest regret with that boat was the lack of a place to hang wet foul wx gear.
My experiences have borne this out.. sleeping below on a small boat with your wet foul weather gear is particularly distasteful..... :P
The anchor locker drains to the bilge.... 8)
I will have space for 4 hooks, or even a rod to hang hangers on... and it will drain to the bilge ..... at least it will after I move it to the new locker that is as far from the companionway as it can be... ::)
But after I get it there, it can dry without dripping all over everything...
That is the theory anyway... ;D
8 Plait.
I have this big ole 200' piece of 5/8" line. I carry it around in a garbage bag in my truck. I use it where ever the hurricanes are coming to.
If they are headed to NC, I use it to put out my storm anchor (I take the boat fwd, nearly out of it's slip and use the anchor to hold the bow to the entrance of the marina).
If they are headed to FL, I carry it down with me to pull trees down with my truck. ;D
Anyways, I was looking at my anchor locker mod, and thinking about what I was loosing. I never intend to keep the monster rode in my bow, but would like to if I could.
I helped install a new rode of 8 plait on a friends Tiara, I was really impressed with the way 200' of it laid down in the locker (if anyone here has not seen it, it must be seen to be believed. This stuff just collapses into the smallest space.... does not snag, or tangle).
Took us a while to figure out the chain to anchor splice.... but printed out an example off of the internet and figured it out. I know this rode is normally used with some windlasses, but wondered if anyone was using it for the space saving advantage?
I can't say I'd be excited about dragging wet foul weather great through the cabin and over the v-berth to stow it. It probably won't be dry by the time you need it again, so you have to drag wet gear back across the v-berth and through the cabin. Not so good.
Admittedly, I couldn't find a plan for the Ariel so maybe I'm missing something. I did find this picture: http://www.mindspring.com/~edfoster/interior.jpg . How about some hooks on the edge of the counter to port of the steps? Handy to the companionway at least.
For the anchor locker might a horizontal seperator work? A chain pipe could lead your rode to the lowest furthest aft bit and the shelf above would give you a place to put your 8-plait and probably other things as well.
I have 50m of 8-plait in a 15 l (about 4 gal) bucket for my stern anchor. It works great, leads and stows nicely and is easy to store in a cockpit locker. I also had 200' of 8-plait on my boat before last that ran over a horizontal windless and loaded well into the anchor locker. I think its good stuff.
Craig -
Connie has some of that 8 plait onboard, it does work well and stow small. Impressive enough that I will probably be using it eventually for 2 long rodes.
I'm going with horizontal separation in the chain locker. My thinkin's at the current time:
Split the space into 2 horizontal areas, further splitting each of those areas into 2 more.
About 3/4's of the upper section will seal off to be watertight, and will be stowage for light, not-frequently used items of some sort - like maybe the dinghy sail, spare micro-balloons, glass cloth, spare pillow, etc... The other 1/4 will serve as a deep socket for the end of long items which I will have stowed up against the bottom of the foredeck - like fishing rods, dinghy oars and mast sections, maybe a spare piece of wood or two, perhaps some legs for the boat.
The lower part of the locker will also be separate from the cabin, accessible but usually sealed. The floor will be glassed over w/foam in it, with a couple of padeyes inserted to attach the bitter end of anchor rodes. It will be divided vertically into 2 sections, each lead to deck by a chainpipe. These 2 primary rodes will be combos of chain and 8 plait.
It would be ideal to have a hatch up there which opened into a shallow well like I have seen on some boats, but making it so would just be too much work...
Craig,
I seem to remember reading something about Manson Supreme anchors having a slight issue with some bow roller configurations (due to the roll bar).
How has your Supreme worked out with your new bow roller? I'll be building a custom bow roller for the A-30. Are there any catches you can identify if building for the Supreme?
Can you make any further comments (beyond what you've posted in the past) about the performance of the Supreme?
I'm looking into getting a plow style anchor. I'd like to get a plow to act as my "primary," but have not decided on a regular plow or the Supreme.
Also, considering there will be times when this is the only 'big' anchor I have on board, would you think I really need a 35 lb Supreme, or could we get away with the 25 pounder? I know bigger is generally better, anchor-wise, but 35 lb plus 60+ ft of chain without a windlass is a pretty good workout. Thoughts?
Thanks.
CS-
I'd go with the 35 lb. anchor, preferably a next-gen anchor like a Rocna, Manson Supreme, Buegel or Spade.
I don't think there's that much of an issue with the roll bar, unless you have something higher than the bow roller to either side or are using a "platform" type roller, where the anchor nests in the bottom of a platform or wide bow sprit. I have a 15 kg Rocna as my primary, and it fits on a standard pivoting bow roller.
The only real drawback I've found with the Rocna is the amount of the bottom that it brings up when I haul it. I will probably need to install a washdown pump, since it usually brings up about 25 lbs. of mud and sand. The Manson Supreme, which is a copy of the Rocna AFAIK, is going to have similar issues. :D
I hope this helps.
Dan
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 27, 2007, 04:01:26 PM
Craig,
I seem to remember reading something about Manson Supreme anchors having a slight issue with some bow roller configurations (due to the roll bar).
This is mostly bogus marketing. The shank is a bit 'taller' then some other anchors, but it fits through my roller 'bail' just fine. If you look at most roller installations you will see the majority of folks remove the bail anyway.
QuoteHow has your Supreme worked out with your new bow roller? I'll be building a custom bow roller for the A-30. Are there any catches you can identify if building for the Supreme?
Can you make any further comments (beyond what you've posted in the past) about the performance of the Supreme?
Any anchor will need some amount of 'underhang' under the roller to properly stow. For my 25# supreme on my boat that was less then 4". I would recommend going with the largest roller channel you can see on the bow. My URM-4 is a great big piece of stainless, and gives me lots of surface area to through bolt, as well as a good size platform for the shank of the anchor to rest on.
QuoteI'm looking into getting a plow style anchor. I'd like to get a plow to act as my "primary," but have not decided on a regular plow or the Supreme.
I had a 25# genuine CQR that was to be my bower. The thing has a great name, and millions of nights of good sleep to it's credit. I personally think it receives poor treatment in anchor tests because it should be lowered, not thrown (an anchor should never be thrown). Many many people have found different results then the paid testers.
Having said that, I found the CQR to be a PITA to handle. Probably not so bad on the roller, but I consistently pinched my fingers in the hinge, and handling that thing on the deck of a small boat was like wrestling a gorilla. Somewow the 25#s felt more like 50 to me. That was the main reason I looked at something else.
I looked at the Bruce, another similar new generation anchor, and the Manson Supreme. The Bruce has a great reputation also, but you can't buy an original forged one unless you find a good one used. The new cast ones are known to be brittle.... and rumored to not set as well. The other new generation anchor was twice the price of the Manson when I priced it, and no better in terms of build quality or features. They each argue that the other is a copy, and frankly I find the marketing of the 'R' to be obnoxious. I probably would not buy it now even if the price were the same.... just because I don't want to feel like a sheep lead by crafty magazine write ups... (but it is probably just as good of an anchor).
Quote
Also, considering there will be times when this is the only 'big' anchor I have on board, would you think I really need a 35 lb Supreme, or could we get away with the 25 pounder? I know bigger is generally better, anchor-wise, but 35 lb plus 60+ ft of chain without a windlass is a pretty good workout. Thoughts?
I would definitely go with the 30# or 35# anchor on your boat. I believe the sizing charts are pretty accurate, and don't feel the need to 'upsize' but certainly would not want to go smaller.
FWIW, I also feel like no anchor will do all things well. I have an oversized fortress and if I could stow it I would probably have a bulwagga also.
I'll stay totally 'out' of the what anchor to get talk.....but I will add...get THEE biggest you can handle of which ever you decide on. While anchored in a tight spot or crowded anchorage with a 25+ knot blow...you WILL be glad ya did. On your 30fter, I'd want minimum 35lb for cruising. Your best cruising memories will be nice nights at anchor....as well as your absolute worst !!!
On the anchor weight thing...That was just my opinion. Could Charlie or others who've spent longer periods out there add their thoughts to this.
Great ideas!! I'm thinking in glassing a PVC pipe straight to the storage under the V-berth. My problem its, how can I cap the pipe with the chain from the anchor comming out of it?
I have 2 anchors. I usually set one from the cockpit, and then I set my other one after the cockpit anchor sets (my boat doesnt really swings into the wind that easy) I use a bucket to store the line in the port cockpit locker. I can deploy that anchor in a hurry if I want to, and because I store the line in the bucket, it doesnt get all tangled up.
Gus
Gus-
Cut a thin slot in the PVC pipe—the same thickness as a chain link, and then cut a similar slot in a PVC pipe cap that fits snugly over the PVC pip you're using as the chain pipe. Then you can leave the chain sticking out by placing a link in the slot, and then drop the cap over the link. This will effectively cap the chain pipe and prevent almost all water from getting in, since the chain link itself is blocking most of the slot.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 28, 2007, 09:07:41 PM
Gus-
Cut a thin slot in the PVC pipe—the same thickness as a chain link, and then cut a similar slot in a PVC pipe cap that fits snugly over the PVC pip you're using as the chain pipe. Then you can leave the chain sticking out by placing a link in the slot, and then drop the cap over the link. This will effectively cap the chain pipe and prevent almost all water from getting in, since the chain link itself is blocking most of the slot.
Yes, and if you really want to get fancy.....
Screw a small eye into a hole drilled in the center of the cap. Hang a small hook (like as ss 'S' hook you might hang a swing set seat on) and when cap it, the weight of the chain will keep the cap from getting lost.
Frank- I agree totally. People talk about insurance for the boats- in my opinion the anchoring systems you have are your REAL insurance policies.
I'm for having an anchor that is five pounds lighter than the largest thing you can physically haul aboard and stow. On Tehani, which we figure at 7000 pounds all up when in cruising mode, we use a 22 pound Claw and 75 feet of chain on the bow. That's backed with 200 feet of 1/2 nylon.
On my tri at 35 feet, I carried a 35 pound plow with 100 feet of chain and then 200 feet nylon. PLus a pair of 20 pound High Tensile Danforths, each with 50 feet of chain and 200 feet nylon.
Both setups have served me well all along the east coast and all across the gulf coast. Of course were I to be cruising places with deeper anchorages I'd have to add more rode.
When away from home waters on a cruise we also carry a 15 pound folding Northhill with chain and rode and we ALWAYS carry a 12 pound Hi Tensile danforth with IT'S chain and 200 feet of nylon as our second anchor. Both of those anchors only have 25 feet of chain on them though.
We don't have a windlass, so that 22 pounder and it's chain is about the top weight that Laura can haul onboard by herself if needed. If we had a windlass I MIGHT be tempted into a size larger anchor.
I've got a couple of High Tensile Danforths at 20 pounds, but they are physically too large to stow on Tehani- I tried them ;D
AdriftAtSea- we also wrap a chunk of foam tightly around the last few links and jam them down into the deck pipe when we go offshore- that stops all but a very tiny amount of water from going below- I've found that when the bow gets stuck into a wave, even having that link captive lets more below than I want.
Very true... For offshore use, that would be wise... but for coastal use or in the bay... a bit overkill.
Thanks for the ideas guys!! I can see another project in the near future! :)
If you're going to use PVC pipe, use Schedule 80 pipe, since it is heavier wall than the normal Schedule 40 pipe and will take the abuse from the chain better.
Which type or model anchor roller did you use please?
I don't have a 25, but a 35. I'm building a custom roller per Charlie Jones' basic design.
No help to your question, of course. Just basically pointing out that I am interested in this thread. If I get the prototype finished soon (got the basic pieces cut out, I just need to set up my planer to finish it), I'll let you know how it goes.
Re posted in reply to the question above.... (will merge the question into this thread).
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 27, 2007, 04:01:26 PM
Craig,
I seem to remember reading something about Manson Supreme anchors having a slight issue with some bow roller configurations (due to the roll bar).
This is mostly bogus marketing. The shank is a bit 'taller' then some other anchors, but it fits through my roller 'bail' just fine. If you look at most roller installations you will see the majority of folks remove the bail anyway.
QuoteHow has your Supreme worked out with your new bow roller? I'll be building a custom bow roller for the A-30. Are there any catches you can identify if building for the Supreme?
Can you make any further comments (beyond what you've posted in the past) about the performance of the Supreme?
Any anchor will need some amount of 'underhang' under the roller to properly stow. For my 25# supreme on my boat that was less then 4". I would recommend going with the largest roller channel you can see on the bow. My URM-4 is a great big piece of stainless, and gives me lots of surface area to through bolt, as well as a good size platform for the shank of the anchor to rest on.
QuoteI'm looking into getting a plow style anchor. I'd like to get a plow to act as my "primary," but have not decided on a regular plow or the Supreme.
I had a 25# genuine CQR that was to be my bower. The thing has a great name, and millions of nights of good sleep to it's credit. I personally think it receives poor treatment in anchor tests because it should be lowered, not thrown (an anchor should never be thrown). Many many people have found different results then the paid testers.
Having said that, I found the CQR to be a PITA to handle. Probably not so bad on the roller, but I consistently pinched my fingers in the hinge, and handling that thing on the deck of a small boat was like wrestling a gorilla. Somewow the 25#s felt more like 50 to me. That was the main reason I looked at something else.
I looked at the Bruce, another similar new generation anchor, and the Manson Supreme. The Bruce has a great reputation also, but you can't buy an original forged one unless you find a good one used. The new cast ones are known to be brittle.... and rumored to not set as well. The other new generation anchor was twice the price of the Manson when I priced it, and no better in terms of build quality or features. They each argue that the other is a copy, and frankly I find the marketing of the 'R' to be obnoxious. I probably would not buy it now even if the price were the same.... just because I don't want to feel like a sheep lead by crafty magazine write ups... (but it is probably just as good of an anchor).
Quote
Also, considering there will be times when this is the only 'big' anchor I have on board, would you think I really need a 35 lb Supreme, or could we get away with the 25 pounder? I know bigger is generally better, anchor-wise, but 35 lb plus 60+ ft of chain without a windlass is a pretty good workout. Thoughts?
I would definitely go with the 30# or 35# anchor on your boat. I believe the sizing charts are pretty accurate, and don't feel the need to 'upsize' but certainly would not want to go smaller.
FWIW, I also feel like no anchor will do all things well. I have an oversized fortress and if I could stow it I would probably have a bulwagga also.
Here are a couple of pictures of the roller installed, before I added the bow cleats, and the bow pulpit.
(http://geekworkshosting.com/sailfar/newgallery/albums/userpics/10014/BowRoller1.jpg)
(http://geekworkshosting.com/sailfar/newgallery/albums/userpics/10014/BowRoller.jpg)
Here is the same set up, after a few thousand miles of cruising and anchoring.....
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10577/Bow1.jpg)
Very happy with the set up. Would only change 1 thing, I set the anchor on the roller and adjusted for minimum hang over (to minimize the leverage). I wish I had set it about 3/4" farther forward... there are some ways the anchor can twist to hit the bow when raising it. With a bit more clearance I doubt it would be an issue.
Quote from: s/v Faith on August 03, 2009, 09:34:14 PM
Quote
Also, considering there will be times when this is the only 'big' anchor I have on board, would you think I really need a 35 lb Supreme, or could we get away with the 25 pounder? I know bigger is generally better, anchor-wise, but 35 lb plus 60+ ft of chain without a windlass is a pretty good workout. Thoughts?
I would definitely go with the 30# or 35# anchor on your boat. I believe the sizing charts are pretty accurate, and don't feel the need to 'upsize' but certainly would not want to go smaller.
FWIW, I also feel like no anchor will do all things well. I have an oversized fortress and if I could stow it I would probably have a bulwagga also.
Well, I will say that having had the 35# for two years now that raising it (plus some chain) is a bit of a workout...but the single biggest strain is pulling it OUT from the bottom. Once it breaks free, hauling up is, well, not EASY, but not too bad either.
I anchored for four days in Charleston on the Manson alone when I was "advised" by another in the anchorage "do NOT set out one hook, it will never hold." I also let out less scope than he recommended, going with my 'gut' on that (about 170 ft in about 10 ft of water - he said not to dare set out less than about 220 ft even on two hooks). This was SC pluff mud with diurnal tides.
Incidentally, he was on two VERY small (8 pounders?) danforths in tandem, which made me wonder. His boat was a Catalina 30.
I've anchored the boat, in 1-2 kt currents, with the 35# Manson Supreme when the anchor did not even dig in....but kept the boat in position. I imagine this was weight and any anchor of similar weight would have done. The point being, of course, that I'm glad of my purchase overall.
The Manson 35# has already held in a variety of anchoring situations and just looks WAY oversize on the bow compared to many others here at the marina.
Well, I lost an anchor for the first time - an original Bruce forged - about a week ago. I'm fairly sure it was my fault, too. I lowered it plus 30' of chain and 60' of nylon as a stern anchor at the far end of my bower's rode, then hauled myself forward. I didn't get nearly as far forward as I had expected I would with 90' off the stern.
The next day I dropped back to haul up the stern anchor, and about half the nylon came up. After a couple hours of messing around trying to get the anchor up we decided the chain was apparently wrapped on something, or under something, and we hadn't gotten any additional line hauled in despite literly winching the exhaust outlet under water. We cut the line.
We've replaced it with a bruce knock-off for the moment, and will be purchasing another anchor when we get back in - probably Ancora Latina. The experience has made me cautious about my two-anchor techniques, and I've pulled Hinz back off the shelf for some refreshing.
Here is some more comments borrowed from the bow roller thread;
Quote from: Tim on August 14, 2009, 08:03:17 PM
Quote from: Capt. Tony on August 14, 2009, 06:38:41 PM
Where are you planning on storing her rode? Are you going to use the original locker as set up? Maybe drain it overboard like Geoff or Frank did? What about 'pipe' it to right about where the factory water tank sits. Nice and low.
Now if someone could just lead me through the whole pipe and locker part with pictures of course.
Shoot Tony I was hoping you would get yours done so I could copy it ;)
I have pretty much resigned myself to filling in holes as they were not done properly and would be a place for core damage if left. I guess I will probably fabricate a locker shelf with a drain, I would like to have something that could be removed and still be accessible from inside.
For what it is worth.... ( you know I was gonna say something...) ;)
I had planned two different designs... one I tried and was not happy with. The other (thankfully) never got past the design stage.
I think the standard Alberg drawn design is pretty functional.
Some move (or propose moving) the rode aft to distribute the weight (sometimes going with a couple hundred feet of chain). I like it in theory, but it had better work without a hitch in execution. If the rode is stowed below decks you had better be able to get to it easily. The more room it has (especially with chain / rope) the better.
Our SOP was to raise anchor and leave the rode on deck for a little bit. A rinse with a bucket left very little to need to drain.
I did use the extra volume of the locker to stow my extra rode, and my storm rode. I kept them in bags so they would not tangle with the working rode.... after using it like this I do not think I will change it. Might add a door to the locker at some point in the future but that is about it.
-------------------------
In case anyone recalls my prior plan to divide the locker fore and aft with a small area for wet foul wx gear.. the mock up proved the idea unusable if not down right dumb. Hope no one ever tries to borrow THAT one.. :P
To all others I'll admit this response is probably more skewed toward the Ariel/Commander crowd.
To Craig, I recall reading that a chain 'likes' to fall against a considerably pitched floor to keep from piling and consequently tangling. I have no practical, personal experience with this. My experience is limited to 20ft of logging chain I pull stumps, fence posts and vehicles with. Not very applicable to anchoring, huh?
So 50-80ft of chain in our factory locker is honky dory with you? I guess that is still pretty close if not below the LWL. I do like the idea of having additional rode, storm or otherwise, in bags ready for duty. That is too much space to pile a little chain in the bottom of and otherwise neglect. Is it rediculously unnecessary to direct the chain from the hawse to the storage area. I just think if it's contained it would be easier to access the area for addtional rode and whatever else stores in a wet, smelly area(another thread entirely). At the same time I don't want to fly in the face of the KISS principle.
To Tim, if you help me sell this O'Day and other assorted boat stuffs I will buy 50ft of chain post haste and get on it ASAP!
Generally, chain likes to have some room to fall or a decently sloped chain locker floor to slide down. On my boat, the locker isn't really deep enough to work really well, and making a deeper chain locker is on my list of future projects.
Also, I'd point out that scope of more than 8:1 is really of little benefit most of the time, as there is little change in the angle between the rode and the anchor after that point. The only time I've seen scopes of greater than 8:1 be of any real use is when the sea floor is sloped fairly steeply, and the rode is lying downhill of the anchor.
I'd agree with Capt. Smollett that a 35# anchor and a reasonable amount of chain is fairly manageable, and that the worst part of dealing with that size anchor, especially if it is a Manson Supreme or Rocna, is the process of breaking it out of the bottom, due to the way they set. Dealing with the mud/sand that rides up on the anchor fluke is a secondary problem with these two specific anchors.
Norman, thanks for saying that, I though I was wrong by doing it that way, but it helps out a lot, specially single handing. I have a bracket in the stern railing holding the anchor, and the line going all the way to the bow cleat. I just toss it over board running from the wind, then the boat just turns around while the momentum sets the anchor.
I also carry a spare anchor in the cockpit locker with the rode in a bucket in case of emergency, or if I want to anchor with one ahead and one astern (I do it all the time)
Gus
Quote from: Norm on September 12, 2006, 10:00:23 AM
In the 60s my family cruised the Bahamas. We were amazed to watch the fishermen anchor. The hook was lashed to the stern with the rode leading forward, outboard of everything. The boat would glide around the anchorage looking for the right spot. When found, the skipper would toss the anchor over the side as the boy forward payed out some scope. The momentum of the fishing sloop helped set the anchor and turn the sloop into the wind. Compared to our operation involving three or four people, the Bahama method was pretty simple. I have used it when single handing on deliveries. Works like a charm
Best, Norman