can any one recommend a reliable paint for me to use on the flooring of my cabin and bilge area, it would be covered by the floor boards
I wouldn't use a paint in the bilge. Most paints are not going to be able to withstand the conditions there. IMHO, you'd be much better off using Interlux Interprotect 2000E barrier coating as a "paint" for your bilge. It is a fairly durable coating that will also help prevent water in the bilge from working its way into the laminate. :)
I used water based white latex paint, it has held up pretty good and looks a lot cleaner than the old stained fiberglass. It will smudge but not too bad. My bilge is fairly dry.
hmm, i do want to cover up the old fiberglass cladding with some paint, perhaps i could do both the liner then a coat of paint on top? Really it doesnt matter, it will be below the floor boards... but I dont know why, it will bother me haha.
Need some more opinions I think
adrift will the liner do anything for aesthetics?
Interprotect 2000E will leave a nice durable white or grey finish.
Oh that sounds perfect then. Thanks Ill be buying some by the start of next week I'm sure. I just need two nice days next to each other so I can power wash the interior and apply the liner, then put in the actual flooring. Do I need to sand or anything prior to the application? Perhaps I should just coat the entire interior with it if it will keep the cladding/fiberglass from deteriorating or molding/fouling?
The plan is to put in wood, insulated walls (for the lower half of the walls) and like a beige vynil for the top half and roof (with wooden molding and framing). The interior is completely bare as I've mentioned in other threads.
Perhaps I should create a new thread saying "EMPTY BOAT, SUGGESTIONS?"
As with any surface coating, applying Interprotect 2000E requires you do the proper prepwork. That usually includes washing down the surface with a good de-greaser/wax remover, like Fiberglass Prep Wash 202 and then sanding it lightly. If you do that, I'm pretty sure that the IP2000E will stick and stay stuck for as long as you have the boat. :) You probably don't need to do the full four coats that would be required if using it as a barrier coating.
Okay thanks Adrift, will be doing that Monday.
BTW, do not barrier coat or paint any areas where you're going to be tabbing in bulkheads or stringers or floors. In fact, I would highly recommend you wash the interior as well as possible with a good degreasing/dewaxing agent and the layout all the places you're going install stringers, floors, bulkheads, and do that before doing any painting or coating of the interior. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time, effort and money.
Once you have the bulkheads, stringers and floors glassed to the hull, before you install the cabin sole, fixtures and furnishings, you should do the barrier coating of the hull and stringers and floors.
Do all the work in the proper order or you're going to end up wasting a lot of money, effort and time.
I know you want to go ahead and barrier coat and paint, but there really is NO POINT to doing it until you've built the interior back up to the point where you're almost ready to add furnishings, fixtures, the overhead, ceilings and the cabin sole.
BTW—The nautical terms are in bold and a bit confusing if you're not familiar with them.
Ceilings on a boat are the vertical surfaces inside the hull.
Bulkheads are the "walls" that laterally cross a boat
Overhead is the "ceiling" of a boat
and the cabin sole is the "floor" of the boat,
floors are lateral reinforcements to the hull that run across the boat,
and stringers are longitudinal reinforcements that run parallel to the keel of the boat.
well that just saved me a ton of time and money, seriously right in time. Adrift, Im going to name the boat after you haha.
Thanks for the heads up, and you even spared me asking about what those terms meant (because thats what I was going to need to do if you didnt define them for me.
You should write a book!
Thanks again, will be doing layout design for the flooring and ceilings tomorrow. Wish you could just come to south jersey and show me whats what. I appreciate all the help!
One minor clarification: ceilings are any interior surface which is applied over the hull/deck structure except the soles (which are ceilings laid over the floors.) So, your overheads may have ceilings, as well as the hull where it is not covered by cabinetry (which is any structure other than the structural members - the floors, frames, and bulkheads.) Many fibreglass hulls have a 'molded liner', which is a ceiling/cabinetry in fibreglass, sometimes called a 'pan' when cabinetry is built on top of it.
Often hulls which are custom built have sections of the interior built in one-piece units, then dropped into place (or lifted, by the craftsmen who intelligently build their boats upside down. A boat built upside down never needs to be cleaned out during construction; rightsideup builds get swept/vacuumed at least every day, and you pay for all that cleaning one way or another.)
Here's two pics to give you an idea of ceilings This is Ash and is on the interior of our Meridian Tehani
first one shows the cleats we installed to fasten the ceiling to, second shows the ash ceiling- the strips are Slightly over 1/4 inch thick
And one more showing my wife installing the foam insulation behind the ceiling. By the way, she put in all the woodwork trim on the inside of the boat.
Charlie—
You do realize you're making us jealous... what beautiful work on that boat.
Thanks- and as I've said before- Laura gets a good portion of the credit. She worked finishing the boat because I was building a 22 footer up in the other shop for a customer during that time frame. She did the lion's share of the interior.
As a matter of fact, she's out on the boat right now- anchored behind a point on the far side of the bay. She took it out single hand yesterday. Coming home this evening. Kind of a celebration sail because her last work day was last Weds ;)
I didn't go because I'm helping a friend sail another boat back, with a dead engine.
Here's that same area as completed except we no longer stow the jib up there- Laura sewed a jib bag for it so it stays on the headstay.
And of of the lady herself
Congratulations to a really sweet job there, Laura & Charlie!!!
;D
Nice!
I noticed your V berth cushions for sleeping, I am going to put new cushions in my boat and was wondering what you think is the right thickness for setting on and for sleeping on, we do not want to bottom out when sleeping.
Thanks
For my vberth (my sleeping area) I use a 4" med. to soft open cell foam. Open because it provides softer padding, and I figure if they ever get inundated by water I am in deep doodoo anyway. For my settee seats I will use a denser closed cell 2 to 3" foam.
On this boat, the previous one and for all the foam I order for customers, we use a 4 inch medium density open cell foam. We use that on vee berth and settees, since we often are sleeping on the settee particularly when at sea.
okay thanks for all the clarification and pictures.
adrift what fibreglass materials should I be using?
charlie, i noticed in one of the pictures of the v birth you used verticle studs to then attach wood panels to, how did you fix these studs to the hull? also i see what seems to be a marking for a port, did you install the forward ports yourself? i plan to do the same except have no idea how to do it, how do i determine the height that they should sit at, make them level, symmetrical from side to side, etc.
thanks again all (as usual)
oh so many questions, i feel i am in over my head.
As to the fiber glass materials- as far as I'm concerned for tabbing, etc, the only thing to use on older boats is epoxy resin. Polyester resin will work but the bond isn't as strong- your are dealing with a secondary bond here- go for the strength of epoxy. Of course with either resin you must grind the surface well to get rid of dirt, etc, and so the secondary bond can get a good "bite". Where you will be tabbing, hand sanding is not adequate.
The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull side. Then they are set in thickened epoxy and braced until that cures. In the very first picture you can see two cross pieces on the very front cleats- that is the bracing holding those in place.
That's not a marking for the port- that's the actual opening and was factory cut there. Tehani has bronze ports which are chromed on the inside, bronze on the outside.
If you wish to add some ports yourself, I'd pick some point and measure both sides back (or forward) from that- just so you are starting from the same spot. Then do the same thing measuring up (or down) for the height. Not always simple. I usually make cardboard mockups on the boats I build, and tape them in place, then eyeball, measure, eyeball, and measure again, til it looks right.
I'd second the use of cardboard full-size mockups... it's a lot cheaper to figure out the mistakes with cardboard than it is to find out after making them in plywood or fiberglass.
okay
epoxy resin: I plan to sand, power wash and then shop vac all the water out ... what could I do to further improve the bonding ability of the resin to the hull?
Charlie you say: "The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull"
Ohhh okay, so those are called cleats (thank you kindly!) okay soo I see how the forward cleats are braced in. What do you mean when you say the back side is "kerfed"?
So the epoxy will hold them firmly to the hull without need for fiberglass tabbing? (That would be awesome news). Though I dont plan to put cleats in the v birth, the lower half of the cabin and quarter births will be cleated then insulation put in then wood walls (ceilings?) My thoughts for the vbirth were simple vinyl siding (a nice beige) with a thin mahogany trim, thoughts? Also what type of adhesive would I use to fix the vinyl (if that ends up being the plan) to the hull?
Could either you or Adrift (whose real name I do not yet know) send me a link to the fiber glass materials I would need? I am utterly new to this and luckily adrift has been sending me links of exactly what to purchase. What chop am I looking for? Epoxy resin?
Is it normal for me to be feeling like I've taken on a project I can't handle?
Quote from: Publius on March 26, 2009, 07:02:01 PM
okay
epoxy resin: I plan to sand, power wash and then shop vac all the water out ... what could I do to further improve the bonding ability of the resin to the hull?
First of all, I would wash the interior, then dry it, then use a good de-waxing/de-greasing agent on it, like Interlux Fiberglass Prep Wash 202, then sand it. If you sand before washing and de-greasing/de-waxing the hull, there's a pretty good chance that the sanding will just embed whatever grease/wax is on the fiberglass into the sanded fiberglass, making it less likely to have a good clean bonding surface.
QuoteCharlie you say: "The vertical "studs" or cleats are 1/2 inch thick plywood, kerfed on the back side to allow them to easily take the bend of the hull"
Ohhh okay, so those are called cleats (thank you kindly!) okay soo I see how the forward cleats are braced in. What do you mean when you say the back side is "kerfed"?
Kerfing the back of the cleats means making several cuts perpendicular to the long axis of the stud/cleat every 3-6" or so, so that the material can bend to match the hull's curvature. The cuts don't have to be particularly deep, say 1/5-1/4" or so, and the greater the curvature, the closer the kerfs need to be to each other, and the deeper they need to be. This is a kerfed guitar lining:
(http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/2lg/1019/Kerfed_Guitar_Linings_Detail2.jpg)
QuoteSo the epoxy will hold them firmly to the hull without need for fiberglass tabbing? (That would be awesome news).
Properly done, shoudn't need to glass them in..epoxy should hold them. You will need to have some good struts to hold the cleats against the hull until the epoxy cures. One good way to do it is to get the "cargo compartment" bars from the auto parts store. These bars have screw-adjusters on each side and pin stop like aluminum crutches... so you can adjust them for the width and then increase the pressure by turning them to screw then down tight.
(http://images.solidcactus.com/autobarn/progrip-twist-lock.jpg)
QuoteThough I dont plan to put cleats in the v birth, the lower half of the cabin and quarter births will be cleated then insulation put in then wood walls (ceilings?) My thoughts for the vbirth were simple vinyl siding (a nice beige) with a thin mahogany trim, thoughts? Also what type of adhesive would I use to fix the vinyl (if that ends up being the plan) to the hull?
If the vinyl is a cloth-like material, I would recommend stapling or gluing it to thin plywood and then screwing the plywood to the cleats. 3mm plywood is good material to use for that. Cut it to size, coat it with epoxy to protect it from moisture, and then after the epoxy dries, staple or glue the vinyl to it. Contact cement would work well to glue the vinyl to the 3 mm plywood.
QuoteCould either you or Adrift (whose real name I do not yet know) send me a link to the fiber glass materials I would need? I am utterly new to this and luckily adrift has been sending me links of exactly what to purchase. What chop am I looking for? Epoxy resin?
Is it normal for me to be feeling like I've taken on a project I can't handle?
Where are you located? That would help in suggesting where you should be buying supplies. Epoxy resin and hardener is heavy, and shipping it long distances is expensive.
If you were in New England, I'd recommend Boulter Plywood (http://boulterplywood.com) for the plywood, as they have 3mm Okume for $29 a 4' x 8' sheet. Epoxy in New England should be bought from these guys (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/1_marineresins.html).
As for fiberglass cloth, these guys (http://www.fiberglasssite.com) are pretty good.
Dan. :)
helpful as always!
I completely forgot about the dewaxer/degreaser, thanks for the reminder. Will wash before sanding then.
I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures. Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick. I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?
I suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?
I am in Philadelphia, Reprisal is on blocks in South New Jersey.
I keep meaning to get pictures up (Reprisal is so dilapidated its a little embarrassing, though its not my fault, I just came into ownership).
One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?
A big thanks to Charlie and Dan! :)
Publius
For installing ceilings and a lot of other ideas I suggest you buy a copy of Bruce Bingham's book "the Sailor's Sketchbook". With what you learn here the book will be a good back up and it gives a good description with illustrations of how to do projects.
will check it out, thanks mrb
Quote from: Publius on March 26, 2009, 09:07:51 PM
helpful as always!
I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures. Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick. I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?
I suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?
One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?
Some answers- Yep- the closet bars are great- but too expensive for me, What I do is rip some strips of 1/2 ply a tad longer than the span I need, then "bow" them in place so the curve forces them outward ( or downward) as required. Might even wind up using those strips as cleats later.
Sure, you can use a thickened epoxy to attach most anything. I fillet things in with epoxy that don't require glassing, and just smooth the fillet and leave it.
And yes, you can use the same epoxy. You might need different fillers for thickening, but the resin is the same.
Oh, and by the way- the last four boats I built were done using an epoxy purchased from B and B Yacht Designs. They don't show it on the website, but it's by far the least expensive epoxy resin I've found and I've been using epoxy since 1976.
http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/
Number is on the website- call and talk to Carla or Graham. Tell 'em Charlie Jones told you to call. Won't save you a nickel or gain me a thing but I like to let them know.
Oh - and just for info- Until I semi-retired last year I built wooden boats and repaired fiberglass ones for a living. I still do boat work but I'm winding it down so Laura and I can go cruising long term beginning this summer
Quote from: Publius on March 26, 2009, 09:07:51 PM
helpful as always!
I completely forgot about the dewaxer/degreaser, thanks for the reminder. Will wash before sanding then.
I figured that's what it was thanks for the helpful pictures. Those cargo bars seem like they would do the trick. I am on a tight budget, is there anything cheaper I could use?
You can also often do the same thing using two wooden boards... just not as elegantly. :) I happen to have two of the expanding cargo bars for my truck anyways...so use them when I need them on the boat as necessary. Basically, you cut a bunch of notches into one side of two boards, put them back to back, and then use wire, string or something else to hold the boards against each other... using the notches to load the boards and tension them.
QuoteI suppose I cant just epoxy anything and everything to the hull, the infrastructure that would take more weight and usage (such as important stringers/soles/other ceilings) should be glassed?
Some stuff should be glassed over. Stringers and floors are usually glassed over, as the fiberglass, not the wood or foam that makes up the body of the stringer/floor is really what provides the strength and stiffness. Bulkheads are usually tabbed to the hull, but generally, it is a wise idea to leave a small gap, often filled with foam cut to help form nice smooth curves for the fiberglass tabbing, between the bulkhead and the hull, so as not to create a hard spot and "hinge" for the glass fibers in the hull to bend upon and fatigue at. The ceilings and overheads should be screwed or bolted to the cleats.
QuoteI am in Philadelphia, Reprisal is on blocks in South New Jersey.
I keep meaning to get pictures up (Reprisal is so dilapidated its a little embarrassing, though its not my fault, I just came into ownership).
One last and possibly the stupidest question yet, can I use the same Epoxy for glassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull?
A big thanks to Charlie and Dan! :)
Yes, you can generally use the same epoxy for fiberglassing as for fixing the cleats to the hull. Usually, the epoxy used for fixing the cleats to the hull is thickened by adding wood flour, microballons, chopped fiberglass, or fumed colloidial silica (cabosil) to the epoxy. That helps the epoxy fill gaps, gives it a bit more strength, and makes it less likely to drip or sag. Usually, thickened epoxy is compared to mayonaisse or peanut butter... with peanut butter being for gap filling and mayonaisse being more for gluing things to each other.
I'd highly recommend using a no-blush epoxy, as the amine blush is generally what causes the severe allergic reactions some people have to epoxy resins. Wear gloves, goggles, respirator, etc when working with it.
Wear a respirator with a p95 or p100 filter when working with the thickeners, particularly fumed silica, since they are bad to inhale and can cause serious lung problems if inhaled on a regular basis. I prefer the full face mask 3m Series 6000 respirators, even though they're a bit expensive—about $120 for the basic mask. The full face mask gives far more protection to your eyes than the goggles and half-mask, and is generally less likely to fog up and far more comfortable to wear for long periods of time.
okay guys thanks for the info again.
I suppose the 15 dollar respirator I picked up at the hardware store probably isnt protecting me all that much then? Ive been sanding off fouling paint, smashing off old fiberglass, tearing off old...well you get the idea (hope my lungs aren't going to suffer as a result).
With epoxy, you generally want a organic solvents and a particle filter. The cheap respirators are generally only particulate filters, and not particularly good ones at that. According to one CDC sponsored study, the cheap disposable masks can allow as much as 20% unfiltered air through, which kind of defeats the purpose of using the masks in the first place IMHO. They also do nothing for the fumes generally speaking.
There are N95/99/100 masks, but they're just single use and for dust and water-based aerosols, and capture 95%, 99% and 99.97% of airborne dust/particulates down to 0.3 microns in size respectively. The R95/99/100 filters are single use and block dust, water-based aerosls and airborne oil droplets. The best particulate filters are the P95, P99 and P100, which capture dust, water-based aerosols and airborne oil droplets, and are designed for multi-days usage.
The fume cartridges capture or absorb specific solvents/organic compounds, but don't block dust, aerosols or oil droplets. You need to use both to properly protect yourself IMHO.
A good respirator, while a bit more expensive initially, is a good deal cheaper in the long run. I've had one of the ones I use for almost seven years.
Now here's one place where Dan and I are in total agreement- spend the money on a decent respirator. Doesn't HAVE to be a full face, although those are nice. But it DOES need to be a good quality one. It's your ONLY set of lungs.
Bottom paint is toxic - hey it kills marine organisms, Fiberglass grinding dust is GLASS fibers, wood dust looks like little sand spurs under a magnifying glass.
Get the good respirator
Yup, and inhaling fumed silica is probably a good way to get silicosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis).
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 27, 2009, 02:18:26 PM
Now here's one place where Dan and I are in total agreement- spend the money on a decent respirator. Doesn't HAVE to be a full face, although those are nice. But it DOES need to be a good quality one. It's your ONLY set of lungs.
Bottom paint is toxic - hey it kills marine organisms, Fiberglass grinding dust is GLASS fibers, wood dust looks like little sand spurs under a magnifying glass.
Get the good respirator