This is my first time to post outside intros - be gentle.
I share a Westsail 32 with jmwoodring. The boat has a jiffy reefing system with a tack hook and permanent clew lines lead through cheek blocks to a winch and cleats on the boom. At the gooseneck, the boom is attached in such a way that it can freely swivel about its long axis. The reefing gear is on the port side of the boom, and when reefing, the boom will swivel almost 90 degrees. This leaves the boom winch pointing more or less skyward and the bottom of the boom pointing over the port side. Not only does the swiveling make use of the winch more difficult, we are concerned that the way the boom curls up to meet the reefing lines is giving the lines a bad lead through the blocks. The first time we put a reef in the sail (a few days after purchasing the boat), we blew out one of the blocks within minutes. A picture of the failed block should be found here:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JfQM-70gmWc/T8_d--mqbJI/AAAAAAAAA4k/frz4RSvyvFo/s1600/fort+meyers+031.JPG
The way it is bent makes us wonder if it failed because too great a force was being exerted on the side of the block rather than on the wheel. We made it home with a swivel block attached to the boom end bail, but this is obviously not ideal. We'd like to replace it with a new cheek block, but we're worried it may not last long if there is an underlying problem that hasn't been addressed.
Any ideas from folks with swiveling booms? Should we try to limit the rotation? Is there another system for leading the lines that would work better than the cheek blocks? Think the failure was just due to an old block from who knows when and that we should just put a new one on and see how it goes?
When will you be back to Mona? I'll be back in the marina on Monday I think.
Maybe we can maybe noodle something out.
I think we're planning to come down next week. We should be there this Sunday or Monday. We welcome your noodles. :P
It sounds to me like the boom / gooseneck was originally designed/used for roller reefing (or furling)...wrapping the sail around the boom.
If I had such a set-up, I'd look for a way to limit the rotation, to lock it. Perhaps drilling a small hole to install a locking screw (which can be removed if someday a roller boom is desired) will work.
I was thinking the same thing as John, that the boat was originally setup with roller reefing, which was popular in those days. I cannot think of any other reason for the boom to rotate. On the boat that I had, the boom was rotated by turning a handle, and the boom was held by a mechanism of gears, so was not free to swivel. Even when a jiffy reefing system was added to the boat much later, the roller reefing mechanism was not used, it held the boom from swiveling.
It may be that when you boat was fitted with jiffy reefing, the roller reefing gear mechanism was removed, but the ability to rotate remained (with nothing to hold it).
I would say that the cheek block is not designed to be loaded against its side plate, so although the fitting is old and this may have been a factor, it is probably the bad lead angle (as you suspect) that is the main issue. If the reefing line is pulling on that side plate, I would expect the line to chafe badly on the edge of that plate even if it did not break the fitting.
My boat and mainsail was much smaller so were the forces involved. I've never had or needed a reefing winch. I think that my Typhoon's gooseneck fitting allowed the boom to rotate, but the tension from the boom vang was enough to prevent it while reefing.
I'm not sure that the boom was ever intended for roller reefing. We have a copy of the Westsail 32 manual and the gooseneck fitting, spars, and jiffy reefing setup all look like what was found on the factory boats. Our gooseneck fitting looks exactly like the photo posted by Bud Taplin here:
http://westsail.info/index.php?action=posts&thread_id=2371
JW also suggested that installing a vang might help keep the bottom of the boom pointed down.
Rachel- isn't there a Westsail 32 just onto B dock? Has a "for sale" sign on it. Might help to take a look at that one. He told me he'd owned it for 30 + years.
Quote from: ralay on August 11, 2012, 04:48:00 PM
Our gooseneck fitting looks exactly like the photo posted by Bud Taplin here:
http://westsail.info/index.php?action=posts&thread_id=2371
Where exactly is it rotating, at that attachment point? Seems like it should not be slipping there. If it's not designed to rotate at that point, and it is, I'd fix it - something is worn or broken and will likely fail worse - at a bad time.
We had a gooseneck failure off the coast of Charleston, SC a few years ago at about 0500. The boom fell on my knee. Not fun.
Quote
JW also suggested that installing a vang might help keep the bottom of the boom pointed down.
Maybe, but you should not need it for that. That's only fixing the symptom, not the underlying problem (something allowing movement that should not be doing so).
When I wrote that the boom vang on my Typhoon helped keep the boom from rotating, I meant that it seemed to be an incidental benefit, not a recommendation that it was solution for your much larger boat. I agree with John that a more direct approach would be a fitting that does not allow it to rotate in the first place--if that is the goal.
Yet when I look at the photo that you referred to, the fitting with the clevis that is connected to the boom itself is [or seems to be] of the type that would create a shaft that the boom could rotate on, so it does seem likely that there was an intention for rotation. There would have been other simpler ways to connect the gooseneck fitting to the boom, if preventing rotation was the goal (such as that in the attached photo).
However, if the intent of this rotation was for roller reefing, it seems like the fitting would be located on the axis of the boom, so that the boom would rotate about that axis. The fitting shown is located considerably above the boom axis, where it would cause the boom to rotate quite eccentrically (especially if rotated fully multiple times). [Also I cannot see anything to suggest that there had ever been a roller reefing crank mechanism] So I have to now [also] doubt that this design is for roller reefing.
Perhaps its purpose is to let the boom rotate as the mainsheet angle on the boom changes from near vertical while close hauled to more horizontal on a broad reach or run, so that the boom does not exert a torque on the gooseneck fitting. Another possible situation that could torque the boom is if on a run the boat rolled and put the lower part of the boom into the water at speed. This might be a feature that [the designer of] a boat such as yours that was intended for passagemaking in heavy weather (with wind vane steering [where there might at times be no one tending the mainsheet or preventer to release them quickly]) would be more concerned about, than say boats in the size that I have owned.
Charlie's idea seems like a good one. If this other Westsail 32 owner has sailed his for 30 years, he may well have been in situations where the design purpose became obvious.
Like others, I initially suspected roller reefing on your main. It looks that while your boom was intended to swivel (and I have no idea why,) but doesn't seem to be intended for roller reefing. More pictures of the hardware at the aft end of your boom could clarify that.
I have a suspicion that the issue may be how you've rove your reefing lines. In some boats, reefing lines run from the cheek blocks are are simply tied into the clew. In others, they lead up from the cheek block run free through the clew and go through a small piece of hardware on the opposite side of the boom and have a stopper knot tied in them or otherwise have their end secured. I have no experience with a swiveling gooseneck, but I imagine that having your reefing lines set up in the later manner could greatly reduce the rotational force and make your leads more fair. Of course, more pictures of the rig would help us puzzle it out.
Ya know- on some older, larger boats, the boom was allowed to rotate a bit to let the foot align with the rest of the sail to keep from binding it up at the gooseneck.
Haven't seen this one yet, so I don't know if that's the case. They weren't aboard when I stopped by last evening ;)
Just found this thread (http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/index.php/t-7751.html) of a similar discussion.
Exactly the point I was making.
And did you ever notice how on some forums, people jump in and answer the question, apparently without ever READING the question?
I notice that a lot.
How did they IMMEDIATELY jump to roller furling?? He was pretty clear in his question.
Maybe I should have written "a discussion on a similar topic"? I browsed through thread and found some reassurance from some shared views by some of those posting (buffet style)...for example, that some believed that allowing the boom to rotate free would relieve the gooseneck fitting from any torque.
I thought that maybe if I go back and read it carefully there may be a way to reconcile the various views, but that must have seemed too involve too much thinking and so I just posted the link to the thread anyway without doing that... ;)
Nothing wrong with your post.
I've just noticed that on many forums, people have answers that don't really fit the original question.
Saw one earlier, asking about the meaning of a boat being "tender" and someone immediately explained that "that was the dinghy"!!!!
Which, while it may be a tender, has nothing whatsoever to do with a boat being "tender"
Just strikes me as funny, to not read before expounding ;D
Quote from: ralay on August 11, 2012, 04:48:00 PM
I'm not sure that the boom was ever intended for roller reefing. We have a copy of the Westsail 32 manual and the gooseneck fitting, spars, and jiffy reefing setup all look like what was found on the factory boats. Our gooseneck fitting looks exactly like the photo posted by Bud Taplin here:
http://westsail.info/index.php?action=posts&thread_id=2371
JW also suggested that installing a vang might help keep the bottom of the boom pointed down.
Went by Mona earlier- no one aboard, but main sail cover was off, so I took a quick look at your blown cheek block. I think I see the problem- we just have to manage to all be in same place , same time :D
Please do tell. I stayed home to work this week and James should be heading back to work tonight. If it's something obvious, I'll pretend like I'm not embarrassed. :P Or if it's hard to explain without the visual aid, I suppose it'll have to wait til next time.
Well, your reefing line appears to be dead ended at the grommet on the sail leech, led down through the block and forward.
It SHOULD dead end at the boom opposite, lead UP through the grommet and back down to the cheekblock on the OTHER side.
This gives a direct pull DOWN, centered on the boom, instead of only on one side as it is ( or seems to be) now.
Therefore only half the load on the cheek block (it's now a 2-1 purchse) and no twisting forces.
Here's two pics of the reefing lines on Necessity. First one shows starboard side, lines leading down to cheek blocks and forward. Second shows port side of boom, and lines dead ended in eyestraps
I was just googling pictures of reefing systems and finally noticed this just before reading your last post.
Our screw up stems from the fact that the Aleutka had a funny (crappy) reefing set up. There was only one reefing line running aft and it had a heavy hook (same as the tack hook) spliced onto the end that you could place through any of the clew grommets. We hated it because someone had to get out to the end of the boom, put the hook in the grommet, and then try to keep tension on it all the way back to the forward end of the boom (where the cleat was) without letting the grommet spit the hook back out. Without self-steering this was a miserable one-person job. Terrible as it was, I think it got us in the mindset that the goal was to get the end of the line attached to the grommet and not to run it through the grommet.
When we got this boat we were thinking, "Oh finally, bigger boom with more blocks! We'll tie those stupid lines on there permanently and no one will do the hook dance again!"
I'm confident that running them correctly will solve the problem. Thanks for lending us your eyes.
Also, if anyone was curious, I asked on the Westsail forum and was told that all the booms rotate and that the rotation is intended to relieve torsional stress on the gooseneck fitting. I think that was also suggested in the discussion that Jim_ME posted a link for.
I was just reading a sailing book from the 80's today, and I think I figured out how the PO probably had the reefing lines rigged. With many boats the lines lead out the boom, through a cheek block, through the reefing clew, and then down to a pad eye on the opposite side of the boom where they are secured. I found it strange that you lacked these pad eyes, like I have. Well, in reading today, I came across a diagram that instead secured the end of the reefing line to the boom itself, via a loop with a buntline hitch tied in it. This seems an agreeable arrangement should you want to avoid installing pad eyes for any reason.
Good idea. I had been wondering how the PO had got the boat all the way down to Panama and back with that setup. We're looking around for the best price, but 3 new blocks and 3 padeyes are on our shopping list.
:D
I told James about doing that, the day we looked it over. I guess he missed that part
;D ;D
Here's another money and hassle saving thought. I too have 3 reefs in the main, but only cheek blocks and pad eyes for the first two. In fact, the third reef doesn't even have reefing nettles in it. If you're good enough with rope and knots you can spend a little bit of extra time simply setting up the third reef without any hardware (as long as you have a point you can tension to aft on the boom.) After all, putting in the third reef will be an incredibly rare event. As a plus, you don't have to deal with the incredible mess that a permanently rigged third reefing line would make when you lower sail. Plus, you'll sail faster in the meanwhile. At least 0.01 knots :)
If you don't have it permanently rigged, when do you add it? Do you rig it up before you head offshore? I figure that whatever we've got set up, it better be easy and set up in advance, because it's likely to be truly nasty when we want to use it. Of course, if all else failed, we've got a trysail down below, though we still need to take it out and get to know it.
Also, more questions on using a buntline hitch to secure the clew: I've read that buntline hitches have a propensity to jam. Do you do anything to prevent this? I suppose under 3rd reef conditions, the last thing we would care about was having to cut the boom free at some later point. Also, will the knot stay put or do you need to have a way to keep it from forward on the boom? Are the slides on the foot of the sail enough to hold it, or do you need to add some kind of outhaul component?
Thanks for the advice.
While we're at it, would you guys like to chime in on the topic of fasteners? I removed our broken cheek block which was held on by one aluminum rivet and what I (a not so mechanically educated lady) would described as three SS wood screws. As in, pointy ends (not self-tapping), widely spaced threads, fat protruding heads. I also removed the fasteners from a topping lift fitting that had pulled itself free from the boom end - same screws. Looking in the hole at the thickness of the boom wall, I can't imagine that there are that many threads actually in the material. I wasn't aboard when the topping lift fitting let go, but obviously, the fasteners were not up to the job of keeping it in the boom. Unless there is a story I haven't heard, the topping lift shouldn't have been under any impressive amount of strain.
So my questions are: When we remount the new hardware, what should we use? Machine screws, some antielectrolytic goop, and a tap? Will we be able to use the same holes by retapping them (if they were ever tapped) at a larger diameter? If we can't use larger fasteners or if we want to reposition things, do we need to worry about having clusters of closely space holes (ie~the previous blocks are each mounted at 4 points, shifting the block might require 4 more holes nearby)
Next you're down, I'll show you the buntline. I use it often. But it IS a jamming hitch... Hard to undo.
On my boats, I leave the first two reefing lines rigged, and add the third after second reef is in. Third reef for me is an "OHMYGAWD" thing. Hope to never use it :D
And I almost always drill and tap, or use rivets, depending on load and circumstances.
Can you retap? Depends on whether there is damage to the boom at the holes. If they are ripped, no, you can't.
Also, if the boom end can come off, the topping lift fitting COULD be bolted, and the first reef cheek block might also. Doubt any others could- too far forward to reach
There is a way to fix the buntline so you can untie it. Check this link to see both.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--KIVs_B9Rc0/UFPVq_PabCI/AAAAAAAAAS4/Ww-2T8C21Fo/s1600/Buntline.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--KIVs_B9Rc0/UFPVq_PabCI/AAAAAAAAAS4/Ww-2T8C21Fo/s1600/Buntline.jpg)
Kewl- something new. Never thought about slipping it. Wouldn't want to do that for a halyard, but for many purposes it would be great.
For my set up, I'm lucky enough that the pad eyes and cheek blocks line up so that they are bolted on. Next best would be properly tapped machine screws. You are correct that wood screws are a very poor solution.
Best goop for fasteners is Tef Gel. In this 20 year old boat, I have many SS fasteners in my aluminum mast with no sign of corrosion at all. It's expensive, but you need very little of the stuff. Lanocote or other varieties of anhydrous lanolin are also great options.
Slipping any knot is always a good option to make it easy to untie, but I don't like to do it where security is a bigger priority. Buntline hitches often need a marlinspike to pry them apart, but their security and compactness are unbeatable. One of the knots everyone should know, IMHO.
You do need an outhaul component to secure the clew. I'd imagine doing a loop around the boom secured with a buntline hitch, running up to the clew, then down the other side and through the loop and back to an attachment point aft on the boom. Then tension the whole thing up well, making sure that the loop was tied between the right slides so that it's not pressing against any of them. Experiment in fair weather, of course. I haven't tried this, yet, as the third reef is brand new, to me.
Quote from: CharlieJ on September 14, 2012, 06:22:27 PM
......Also, if the boom end can come off, the topping lift fitting COULD be bolted, and the first reef cheek block might also. Doubt any others could- too far forward to reach
Seize a wrench to a long enough piece of pipe or bar.
Lightly tape the nut into the wrench.
When you tighten the bolt from the outside, the wrench will hold the nut in place and the bolt should push the tape off the the backside of the wrench.
Wiggle wrench until it comes off nut.
Warning: Doesn't work worth a poop if you're on your own....... ;D
One trick that avoids permanent rigging of the third reef line is to rig a very small diameter messenger line through the third reef clew fitting.
When the second reef is put in, you can use this messenger line to pull the actually reefing line for the third reef and have it ready to go if the third reef is needed. If conditions abate to the point where the second reef comes out, simply pull out the third reef line (still attached to the light messenger) out leaving the messenger in place.
I got this idea from a "Heavy Weather Sailing" video.