I was on the boat yesterday, in the rain, and noticed the cockpit lockers are leaking like sieves into the bilge. Most of the leakage seems to be coming from the stanchion bases, which I knew before but this was the first time I witnessed the leaks.
One of the bases was so bad the whole stanchion wabbled - you could practically pull it completely off the deck. I made giving that one a temporary fix a higher priority than the others.
The plywood backing plate for this stanchion base was a couple of feet square and was really trashed. The base itself mounts close to one edge of the square, of course, due to the deck-edge.
And yes, Craig, I scraped off all the old silicone that was doing such a fine job of sealing the deck. ;D
Anyway, for a temporary fix, I used a scrap piece of ply that was on the boat. It was only a few inches by a few more inches (say about 2-3 times the area of the stanchion base itself). I put her down with 4200 quick-set.
My question is just how large do those backing plates really need to be?
On the one hand, I realize "the larger the better" but on the other, it is close to the deck-edge so cannot be very large in that direction. Does a plywood backing plate really need to be about two feet square? It's my understanding that the purpose of the plate is to spread the load from the screws over a larger area. It seems to me that such a large backing plate is sort of a waste - that once the plate is slightly larger than the deck hardware itself, you are not gaining much.
Also, I was thinking about replacing them with aluminum backing plates (just a thought at this point, not a decision). Anyone have any pros-cons of al vs wood backing plates?
How about stainless steel fender washers, say about 3 inches in diameter (possibly cut flat for clearance)? Pros/cons? Or, should I use a wooden block backing plate AND fender washers on that (this seems the best to me)?
John -
McmasterCarr among others sell solid slabs of laid-up FRP, which would seem to be a better material than plywood, almost as good as metal (compression-wise), and perhaps even better than metal since it could be bonded to the underdeck, for sealing and strength reasons. Bond it to the underdeck when you are oversizing your fastener holes (and replacing core around them with epoxy.) and you can do both in one step.
Drawback - it is relatively expensive from the above source. That said - you could easily make your own, using polyester resin from WalMart. We used to lay up large slabs to make surfboard fins, thusly:
Get a piece of regular glass, place it on a board for support. Precut fiberglass cloth to a dimension maybe .5" smaller than your glass plate. Mix resin (kick it slow, this'll get thick and heat up), laminate the glass cloth right onto the glass plate 2-3 layers at a time, use a roller to wet things out. Once the layup cures, it'll lift right off of the glass plate, and you can cut custom backing plates from the slab.
Me - I use 2-3 staggered washers, smaller size toward the nut. I think the backing plate needs to be 2-3" or maybe a bit more larger than the hardware base it is reinforcing, but that is just an eyeball measurement.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 10, 2007, 08:47:14 AM
The plywood backing plate for this stanchion base was a couple of feet square and was really trashed. The base itself mounts close to one edge of the square, of course, due to the deck-edge.
I don't think the additional area was really helping. The only way I could see such a large backing plate being useful is if the hardware were substantially tied to it... which just mere through-bolting isn't really going to do. If the stanchion was substantially connected to the backing plate, it would give it a lot more strength against torsion...but just through bolting doesn't give a strong enough connection for the additional size to be of any real use that I can see. Also, the backing plate itself would have to be connected to the deck to resist inward torsion on the stanchion... since it doesn't extend much past the stanchion base itself.
QuoteMy question is just how large do those backing plates really need to be?
On the one hand, I realize "the larger the better" but on the other, it is close to the deck-edge so cannot be very large in that direction. Does a plywood backing plate really need to be about two feet square? It's my understanding that the purpose of the plate is to spread the load from the screws over a larger area. It seems to me that such a large backing plate is sort of a waste - that once the plate is slightly larger than the deck hardware itself, you are not gaining much.
I think that anything about two-to-three times the area of the deck hardware is really going to be the practical limit in terms of gaining support for the hardware. One thing that a larger backing plate can allow you to do, especially with plywood or fiberglass backing plates, is to taper the edges to gradually lessen the stress, rather than having a hard-stress zone at the edge of the plate.
One person I know makes up fiberglass/epoxy backing plates using a stainless steel mixing bowl as the mold.. and uses the curvature of the bowl to effectively taper the edges of the backing plate. This is more time consuming than making them out of plywood IMHO. I also think that epoxy/fiberglass is better than polyester/fiberglass since the epoxy is the stronger of the two resins.
QuoteAlso, I was thinking about replacing them with aluminum backing plates (just a thought at this point, not a decision). Anyone have any pros-cons of al vs wood backing plates?
There are two issues with aluminum backing plates that I see.
The first is corrosion. If you use stainless steel or bronze fasteners, the aluminum will have galvanic corrosion issues if any water gets into the fastener holes and such. You'd probably want to use some sort of galvanic isolator, like plastic sheets and tefgel/lanocote between the fasteners and the plate itself. Needless to say that plywood backing plates have to be epoxy coated after having all the holes drilled, to protect it from moisture intrusion and rot.
The second is expansion. Most backing plates are big enough for this to be a problem, but if you were making a single backing plate for a mainsheet traveler or genoa track, it might be an issue, especially if the deck is painted a dark color.
QuoteHow about stainless steel fender washers, say about 3 inches in diameter (possibly cut flat for clearance)? Pros/cons? Or, should I use a wooden block backing plate AND fender washers on that (this seems the best to me)?
I wouldn't use fender washers by themselves... especially on a cored deck...since I've seen way too many cases of the washers bending under high loads and compressing the deck underneath them. Most fender washers aren't thick enough to spread out the strain of a highly loaded piece of hardware by themselves. I generally back all hardware I install with a 1/2" marine plywood backer block and use fender washers under the nuts to prevent really high loads from pulling the nuts into the plywood and loosening the bolts by doing so. Recently, I started using composite deck lumber for backing boards... I believe this will be about as resistant to compression as the plywood but lower maintenance. I do use fender washers with this stuff as well.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 10, 2007, 09:08:11 AM
I also think that epoxy/fiberglass is better than polyester/fiberglass since the epoxy is the stronger of the two resins.
Just a quick 'techanical' note for future reference: The reason why epoxy is highly touted as the 'better' resin for boat repairs is that it has a stronger secondary bond than polyester (or vinylester, tho' by a smaller factor than the poly- ), making repairs/additions 'stick' better to older FRP. It is not necessarily the "best" resin to use in every scenario.
By that, I mean that in a strictly compressive use like this one for a simple backing plate, polyester resin should serve just as well as either epoxy or vinylester resins, be considerably cheaper, and likely easier to use, than either of the others when laying up the slab.
John, as an addendum - if you can get some styrene, you can use *just a little bit* to thin the polyester resin, making it easier to wet out multiple layers of cloth. Acetone can also be used in the same way, and you'll probably have some of that around for cleanup. Styrene is preferred because it won't evaporate as quickly. Either way - Just don't get too generous with the amount you add, it won't take much to make a difference. :)
Capn K-
My understanding was that the resin itself had a higher tensile strength in a composite than did the polyester or vinylester resins. Not that tensile strength is all the huge a deal in a purely compressive load situation like a backing plate.
Couple thoughts;
QuoteOn the one hand, I realize "the larger the better" but on the other, it is close to the deck-edge so cannot be very large in that direction.
I agree 2 -3 x the area of the item being backed is probably right. I like to bed my backing plates, in areas where they are mating to something less then flat the 'bedding' distributes the forces better. For instance, on the backing plate for my bow roller, there was a large area with one rounded off side that tapered to the deck edge. I built up polyester filler to make a flat shelf to mount the plate to. If I had not all of the compressive force would have been applied along a 'ridge' of the radius of the bend.
QuoteAlso, I was thinking about replacing them with aluminum backing plates (just a thought at this point, not a decision). Anyone have any pros-cons of al vs wood backing plates?
Aluminum is used by many boat builders, and should be fine. My stern cleats have Aluminum (3/8" much thicker then needed) plates, but still have epoxy coated plywood plates under them... Why? you might ask. My thinking is that the wood has some give (not much) to resist shock loads from pulling the cleats from the deck.
QuoteHow about stainless steel fender washers, say about 3 inches in diameter (possibly cut flat for clearance)? Pros/cons? Or, should I use a wooden block backing plate AND fender washers on that (this seems the best to me)?
Wooden backing plates with fender washers would be strong, and certainly much stronger then what most boats are specked with.
Also, something I have done aboard Faith is to lay up fiberglass and cut mounting pads that I epoxy to the deck where an item mounts.
This serves two purposes. First it makes the bedding compound's job easier by raising the seal off of the deck level. That way water does not stand at the joint and is less likely to leak.
Secondly, it distributes the downward compressive forces across a larger area of the deck. Something like the bit I have on the foredeck. It's footprint is something like 3 /34 x 4 3/4 and with the raised mount the area is more like 4.5" by 5.5".
The bases of my new stern pulpit are 1" tube with small plates welded to the ends with 3/8" bolts sticking out.
I laid up some fiberglass and used a 3" hole saw to cut discs out;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Backingplate%7E0.jpg)
These are epoxied to the deck, and here is the finished product;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_Pulpitpad2.jpg)
Edit to fix quote tags
One other thing about stanchion bases, while the plate can more easily extend inward then outboard (because of the toe rail), that is where you want more surface area anywhere. There it can better resist the person leaning against the life lines (not that force is never pushing them in).
Quote from: s/v Faith
These are epoxied to the deck, and here is the finished product;
Very nice work. I like that idea.
I realize now that I have about 1000 questions (on various maintenance/repair topics). The first, though, is how thick are you making those pads, in glass layers? One layer, two?
Also, I was thinking about doing the same thing for the backing plate (a la CapnK's suggestions), but again am wondering about thickness. Preferably, I'd like to be able to make both top pad and backing plate from the same 'batch' of glass just to keep things simple. I like simple. :) (But I also want "right" and "strong")
As a follow-up question, I found some delamination of the deck glass from the core yesterday under one of those leaking stanchions. >:( There probably would have been less of a problem if someone at some time had used real sealant instead of silicone, but I digress.
Anyway, I'm pondering the best method to fix this. The top layer of glass is cracked and very brittle, so I was thinking about replacing the whole section - say about one ft square. I was thinking about chopping out the core material, filling the whole enchilada with thickened epoxy (or polyester better?), then covering with a layer of glass.
Or, as an alternative, I was thinking about treating this as a hole in the hull I wanted to fill, and doing up multiple layers of glass to build it up. I'd grind the hole to about 12:1, as in filling a thru hull.
Which of those two plans is better for a largish deck repair?
I have a suspicion this won't be the first such repair on stanchion bases. It would have been nice if a PO had fixed the leaks, instead of performing a placebo repair that only LOOKED like it was sealed.
An last but not least, for now, a PO epoxied the coaming board into place and I now need to remove it. I'm thinking heat gun and a chisel. I really don't want to destroy the board, or the deck for that matter, so I guess the key word here will be "go slow." Any thoughts?
Thanks. Questions 4-1000 to follow at a later date. ;D
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 23, 2007, 11:33:44 AM
An last but not least, for now, a PO epoxied the coaming board into place and I now need to remove it. I'm thinking heat gun and a chisel. I really don't want to destroy the board, or the deck for that matter, so I guess the key word here will be "go slow." Any thoughts?
Go easy with the chisel... you don't want to damage or remove pieces of the deck that are well bonded to the coaming. The board can be replaced, the deck is a bit more difficult ;) If you choose to sacrifice the board, a small grinder with a 50ish grit abraisive disk is a good tool for fiberglass & epoxy "modification" work. Cut the board back, and then you can remove the remaining material with the grinder in a controlled manner, rather than having it separate at the weakest point...
Capn Smolllett-
For the delaminated area, I would replace the core with more core...rather than going solid epoxy or solid laminate. Both will be much heavier than the surrounding or original cored section would be. Obviously, for directly under the stanchion itself, I would go with solid laminate, as I think it will be stronger than thickened epoxy.
Regards and good luck with the coaming.. the board is far more expendable than the surrounding deck. ;)
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 23, 2007, 11:33:44 AM
Quote from: s/v Faith
These are epoxied to the deck, and here is the finished product;
Very nice work. I like that idea.
I realize now that I have about 1000 questions (on various maintenance/repair topics). The first, though, is how thick are you making those pads, in glass layers? One layer, two?
The pads you see in the picture are about 1/16, there are 2 discks stacked for about 1/8". I wouldnot recommend trying to make the backing plates out of the same material. I would go much thicker with the backing plates under the deck (your epoxy coated plywood, with fernder washers sounds good).
QuoteAs a follow-up question, I found some delamination of the deck glass from the core yesterday under one of those leaking stanchions. >:( There probably would have been less of a problem if someone at some time had used real sealant instead of silicone, but I digress.
Anyway, I'm pondering the best method to fix this. The top layer of glass is cracked and very brittle, so I was thinking about replacing the whole section - say about one ft square. I was thinking about chopping out the core material, filling the whole enchilada with thickened epoxy (or polyester better?), then covering with a layer of glass.
This is a good plan. replacing core in such a small area is pretty pointless.
QuoteOr, as an alternative, I was thinking about treating this as a hole in the hull I wanted to fill, and doing up multiple layers of glass to build it up. I'd grind the hole to about 12:1, as in filling a thru hull.
Probably not necessary, but would be acceptable also.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on May 23, 2007, 05:23:06 PM
Capn Smolllett-
For the delaminated area, I would replace the core with more core...rather than going solid epoxy or solid laminate. Both will be much heavier than the surrounding or original cored section would be.
I have read this online also. I believe it is absolutely bogus.
If you removed
the entire core from the deck and replaced it fiberglass
you might add 75# total to the weight of the boat (probably more like #50). The Alberg 30 barely knows when a 200# man is on the rail.
I removed my #25 anchor and #60 of chain from the anchor locker on my Ariel today. Much to my surprise I noticed no change in how she was riding on her lines.... But then again what is 85# to a nearly 4 ton boat?
The foot or so of core replaced with much stronger (and more expensive) fiberglass or a sandwich of thickened epoxy will add a couple pounds to the boat.....
Alright heres another " got any ideas" question.
My CD27 didn't come with any type of anchor storage on the bow. I hang my Danforth from the pulpit,which works great. Problem is I cant store any other type of anchor up there. I would like to store a Delta there as well.
So any of you folk solve a similar problem? Any ideas? I'm not looking so much for a roller to launch and retrieve as much as a place to securely stow the anchor. Thanks
-Sandy
Store-bought rollers are one solution, but I am chosing to go with a home-built roller. I am shamelessly stealing my 'design' from CharlieJ, so hopefully he will post a pic here of his roller to see what he did. ;D
Sandy, What I did, because I also have a Danforth on the pulpit, is put a pulpit anchor to one side with a carabiner holding on the Delta. I then bungee the shackle end to the pulpit. It has worked fine for the last two years, as easy to deploy as the Danforth.(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1167840577.jpg)
I went with a store-bought pivoting bow roller. It just made a lot more sense, especially with the primary anchor I've got to do that. The Rocna 15kg doesn't really store well anywhere on a boat but on a bow roller of some sort. :)
Here's a photo of the ground tackle setup I put in last spring.
(http://dankim.com/assets/tackle.jpg)
ask and ye shall receive ( sometimes) ;D
All done with 5/4 mahogany. The roller runs on a 5/8 stainless shaft. Had to move the pulpit aft to where it is. Also had to cut toe rail and move bow chocks aft, since none of this existed when we started.
Boat originally had a single 6 inch cleat forward. Now has a pair of 10 inch Bronze Herreshoff style. I HATE undersized cleats and most on todays boats definitely are undersized. If you can't easily get two anchor lines onto the cleat, it's too small.
Anchor is a 22 pound Claw, with 75 feet of 1/4 inch G4 chain and 200 feet of 1/2 nylon
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1199556536.jpg)
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1199556600.jpg)
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1199556651.jpg)
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1199556712.jpg)
Man you guys are fast!!(and apparently I'm a bit slow)
By the time I typed my reply I had TWO new replies...WITH PICTURES!! Grog all around!!
The picture I had in my head was kinda a cross between Charley's & Adrifts. I thought of building a platform and pointing it out at an angle. My anchor chocks are part of my stem plate. I like it!! Thanks a ton guys. Always helps to get others ideas. The pictures are great.
Thanks again
-Sandy
Charlie-
I'm surprised you don't have a bail on your roller, to prevent the rode from jumping off the roller.
BTW, the primary anchor on my boat is a 15 kg Rocna, with 75' 5/16" G4 chain and 150' 5/8" rope. The secondary, which is will be kept in the cockpit is a 14 lb. Danforth, with 15' 5/16" G4 chain and 150' 1/2 rope.
I would actually love to put a roller on, but that would necessitate moving my bi-color and keeping my secondary anchor below. As I have rode on both and very little room on my small boat I will probably keep the setup I have.
That's a definite agenda item. I built that anchor platform and then we took off on our first month long cruise. We hadn't even had the sails up yet when we left.
But that is ON the list for this spring, as soon as I can. It's definitely something that should be on there. I'm also working on ideas for a chain stopper up there. I'm thinking something simple like a heavy stainless angle with a slot for the chain to sit in. That's so when you are hauling chain in, you can drop it into the slot to get a new grip- saves having to cleat it each time.
Right now I'm researching chain hooks for our snubber. See the rusty one in the first pic? We have 15 feet of line on it for when we anchor- we hook it to the chain so the boat isn't riding ON the chain, but on the nylon- stops jerking.
I'd like a stainless one, but we can't even find galvanized. I suspect I''m gonna wind up making one the way I want it before it's over with.
The best chain hook I've seen is a basically a 1/2" thick flat stainless steel plate about 5"x 4" with two holes and a slot cut in it. The holes are for two shackles, which go to an anchor bridle, and the slot is cut to accept the chain. I don't know where my friend got it, or if they had a machine shop make it up for them.
Yep- I've seen one like that- That's basically what I have in mind. Just as soon as I find the stainless piece ;D
I'm visiting the metal scrap yards regularly, particularly the one that deals in stainless.
I have seen chain hooks like the one Dan and Charlie describe, I just can't remember where I saw them ...
Mine are Wichard hooks with nice little spring retainers to keep them from falling off the chain. It is a minor maintenance item to keep the retainers working (spray with WD-40 and then silicon once in a while) but not too bad, and it reminds me to inspect everything else.
Here's a picture just after I made them up and the lines were still all white:
(http://www.skolnick.org/images/posts/snubbers500w375h.jpg)
In my experience bales on bow rollers are for the benefit of reassuring sailors instead of keeping the rode running true.
I have never had one jump off the roller, despite some interesting conditions...
On the coast guard boat, which bounces around like buggery when it has something in tow, when the weather got too bad to tow the stricken vessel, we anchored, I did not fit the bale (Too busy half drowning and getting swept off the bow!)
2.5 hours of being the "meat" ina tig of war between the stricken vessel and the seabed, with the boat often jumping straight up and falling back down...Never came close to coming off the roller.
Now, with the bale fitted on various boats I have seen rope snags get jammed in and tangled!
Sasha
I've never had one come off while anchored either.
I HAVE had the rode jump off while hauling back as we were weighing anchor. And also have had it try to come off when we were aground and kedging at an angle, trying to spin the bow.
That's when I want the bail there.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on January 05, 2008, 03:44:06 PM
The best chain hook I've seen is a basically a 1/2" thick flat stainless steel plate about 5"x 4" with two holes and a slot cut in it. The holes are for two shackles, which go to an anchor bridle, and the slot is cut to accept the chain. I don't know where my friend got it, or if they had a machine shop make it up for them.
I knew I'd seen it somewhere:
West Marine (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/20556/377%20710%20816/712//Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710%20816&Ne=712&Ntt=&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&Nr=AND(Record%20Type:PRODUCT,Store:WESTMARINE)&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5&subdeptNum=242&classNum=519)
sail fast, dave
Kewl and darn.
Sized for down to 3/16 chain >:( We use 1/4 G4
But I can have one made I betcha. I know a GOOD blacksmith shop.
Thanks Dave...saves me from having to make one... ;)
My Ariel came with out any chocks. After reading as much as I could find on the Ariel site, I am even less sure. The originals I guess were skene chocks and there has been discussion about how what's readily available might easily chafe into the dock lines. Somewhere I saw some that looked to be a locking U bolt affair that had no sharp edges. Has anybody seen these? Or does anyone have recommendations?
Tim
I like having at least one locking chock on the bow, as that's where the sea anchor rode is deployed. No worries about it jumping out of the chock and chafing on the stemhead fitting, forestay turnbuckle or whatever...
Tim,
The original chocks were marium(sp) (aluminum alloy) with skene chocks on the bow and open chocks aft.
I still have one of the original skene chocks on the port side forward, and it works fine for the occasional dock line or if I am lazy and do not care to run the snubber from the attachment point I have at the waterline.... it really does not have any sharp edges as some of that I have seen. I also went back with the open chocks aft. Mine are stainless, they are 4" chocks (the bolts are 6" apart) and they have a good radius on entry and exit also.
(http://images.andale.com/f2/123/102/10393999/click2enlarge/1076793077625_Chock_DSCF0084.jpg)
Installed (this was before I switched to the bronze cleats)
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2206&stc=1&d=1114313938)
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/12Haulout_cleat.jpg)
The locking chocks on an Ariel are IMHO more of a pain then they are worth (unless you plan to just leave them open). When you are docking the idea of climbing over the lazy-rat to open them. I think that the angle on the bow would make the open or the locking chocks less then ideal as the line would not run straight through them.
My foredeck plan is not the norm, but works out well for us. I have a large bit in the center of the deck for the anchor, and a pair of 10" cleats on either side of the bow that do not require chocks (line has a fairlead fore and aft, with the only chafe point being the toe rail which has a nice radius on our boats. Set up like this, there is no advantage (that I can see anyway) to locking cleats forward.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Cleat1.jpg)
The weak point of such an arrangement is that the cleats are strongest with a pull off of their ends. I made up for that with large cleats and large backing plates.
OBTW, I originally went with all stainless and switched to bronze. I will probably switch out the remaining stainless when I get a 'round tuit'.
______________
On edit: YEs, the bow might be a good place for a locking cleat, if you do not plan to have a bail on a roller (or no roller). Also, the published requirement for a transit of the Panama Canal is to have locking cleats, but from what I have read they do not enforce it.
Link to deck hardware plan thread on the Ariel site (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=901) in case you had not seen it.
I thought I had a better picture of the bow hardware arrangement but I can not seem to find it right now, I will look again later.
I don't think they're all that necessary. A properly designed and installed skene-type bow chock would keep the line in place pretty well. Here is a photo of the ground tackle setup on my boat, as you can see, the line would have a lot of difficulty getting out of these chocks, but they're not locking chocks. If the line is under any tension at all, there's basically no way it can come out of these chocks.
(http://dankim.com/assets/tackle.jpg)
Dan,
I remember when you posted that picture, I intended to ask you what your thinking was behind adding the chocks.
I see that you would have a fair lead off of the chocks in any direction I would expect the lines to run. If the chocks were on the rail you might prevent chafe as the line moved back and forth, but to my eye they do not seem to do that where they are (although they do cut the arc down, by moving the pivot point.... it could be that might serve to concentrate the chafe to a smaller part of the line.... ? Don't know what a storm would do till it's over (although less of a concern for a trailered boat).
I do like your addition of the stainless 'rub strake' over the toe rail, I thought of doing that, but decided to wait to see if chafe was an issue on the toe rail (it has not been so for me so far).
Thanks guys for the replys already! I've included a pic of the bow
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1202268122.jpg)
to show what I have to work with here.
I intend to reinstall a hawes pipe and vents where the deckplates are, although may not be able to use the oval pipe that came with her as the hole may have been made too large.
Anyway, Craig after looking at your thread on the Ariel site again, I realize I may be best off doing as you did and put cleats in instead of chocks for dock lines. I then will add a chock forward port for a second anchor. This will eliminate an overcrowded mess around the vent (s) when at dock.
I am still deliberating about venting also, so suggestions are welcomed. :)
Tim
An interesting thing on the skenes. Tehani has a nice pair of bronze skenes on her stern- only problem is the are just alike- both left handed ( or right handed, whichever) So we don't use the one that's wrong, which can be problematic at times.
But I removed the original cleats back there and put a pair of bronze Herreshoffs in place, moving them aft at the same time. Originally they were in roughly the same position as the one's on Faith. I moved them outwards and aft, so there is no real NEED for a chock there. We do use the one chock when towing the dinghy and I'd LOVE to swap one with someone who has two rights ( or lefts) ;D
Here's a picture of a Meridian from the west coast- if you'll look closely you'll see that he has the exact same problem- both chocks are just alike, which makes one of them WRONG. That's the original site of the cleats and didn't work well- the edge of the laz cover got in the way.
Tim,
It looks like you have room to place the cleats near the rail as I did. One thing to think about. especially if you plan to stow the anchor on the roller, is how you will maintain a fair lead for the rode back to some securing point. That is why I have the bit in the middle of the foredeck... (in addition to wanting multiple pie down points for storm gear). The chain lays within the sides of the channel leading to the roller when the anchor is stowed, or when on the hook (although there is usually no strain then as I use the snubber). Rope rode would (of course) make it all the more important to ensure that the rode could not contact the (relatively) sharp edges of the roller channel.... although you could reasonably achieve that with a snubber that lead from one (or both) of your bow cleats.
OBTW, some who commented on the 10" cleats I chose said they were overkill for a small boat. After some experience with them I could not disagree more. I have 3 sets of the same 10" bronze hershoff cleats... foreward, midships, and aft. I really like being able to take multiple lines to any of them.
James Baldwin agreed with the sizing, when I mentioned some of the people's comments he said that "cleats can not be too big".
_______________________________________
On edit, as Charlie was posting while I was typing.
Yes, good point. I once saw a pair that were installed on the bow with the sides swapped :P double the chaff for the same price. ;) ;)
I would like to see a picture of the stern cleats on Tehani, it would be nice to eliminate the chocks aft too.
I have Faith's old starboard bow chock.... but I think the Marium would clash with your bronze....
I agree TOTALLY. MOST cleats on production boats are woefully undersized. I've not owned a boat yet that I didn't upgrade the cleat sizes AT LEAST 2 inches, and sometimes more. If you can't EASILY put two of the largest lines you use on the cleat, it AIN'T big enough. I've posted this picture here before, but here's the bow of Tehani- those are 10 inch ( we think- they MAY be 12s) bronze Herreshoffs up there. The stern cleats are now 8 ( or maybe 10s) inchers, mainly because that's what I took off the bow.
I couldn't agree more with you about oversizing cleats. I did that on my Potter when I added midship cleats, it made them 10 times more useful.
If you can post a pic of your bow, I think I understand about your placement.
best picture I have at the moment on the stern It was taken for something else but you can see the cleats ( and chocks) in the background.
I have to go back to the boat tomorrow to fit some wood work so I''ll get a pic of the actual cleats then
I really couldn't mount the chocks on the rail, since the deck edge and rail are molded and not flat, and would have made the mounting a nightmare. If I had mounted the chocks any further outboard than their current position, I would have been in the position of trying to put a backing plate over the transition from cored to uncored fiberglass under the deck... and that was a bit more of a pain than I wanted to deal with. The chocks are there to help limit the movement of the dock/anchor lines, and to keep them leading fair to the cleats. The rub strake was a necessity, since the deck has a slightly raised molding at the edge of the deck. I actually have a snubber that I use when I'm anchored in shallow enough water to have only chain out, rather than chain and nylon, since the rode is a combination of 5/16" G4 chain and 5/8" nylon.
As for cleats, I went up to the two 10" cleats you see in the photo. The stock ground tackle consists of bow chocks, you can see the original port-side chock in the photo, forward of the ones I installed, and a single 6" cleat. The guys at the factory were laughing about how overkill my ground tackle setup was... which means that it is about right.
The chafe protectors I use on the dock and anchor lines are woven chafe guards, that seem to work very nicely.
Quote from: s/v Faith on February 24, 2008, 08:38:20 PM
Dan,
I remember when you posted that picture, I intended to ask you what your thinking was behind adding the chocks.
I see that you would have a fair lead off of the chocks in any direction I would expect the lines to run. If the chocks were on the rail you might prevent chafe as the line moved back and forth, but to my eye they do not seem to do that where they are (although they do cut the arc down, by moving the pivot point.... it could be that might serve to concentrate the chafe to a smaller part of the line.... ? Don't know what a storm would do till it's over (although less of a concern for a trailered boat).
I do like your addition of the stainless 'rub strake' over the toe rail, I thought of doing that, but decided to wait to see if chafe was an issue on the toe rail (it has not been so for me so far).
Those that laugh about over sized cleats, and over sized anchors DON"T go out there and anchor when storms just might come a-calling.
I prefer to have HEAVY stuff, so I can sleep at night. When a thunderstorm happens ( at 2 Am as always) I can raise up, check my position and go back to sleep. Well, maybe not back to sleep, but with no fire drill of trying to get a bigger anchor down- it's already there.
Dan,
That makes sense. I was not thinking about the limited space you had under the installation. Sounds like it works out well for your boat.
Charlie,
Amen.
Charlie-
When I was first laying out the new ground tackle setup, I didn't take the underside into account initially, and had to go back to the drawing board when I took a look under the foredeck.
lol- yeah- that happens. I really don't understand why builders don't at least give the OPTION of real cleats and backing. But I suppose I know the answer. MOST boats sit in the slip most of their life, and go out on a sail on a sunny, nice day, then come back in. Overall, there aren't THAT many (proportionally) of us who actually GO places in our smaller boats and really need the security of substantial gear.
So we do what we can. Which is one of the HUGE values of sites like SailFar- we can compare notes and learn from each other, cause I ain't gonna live long enough to make ALL the mistakes on my own ;D
Hijack:
I cannot believe anyone, ANYONE, that works with/on boats would say cleats are oversized. Good grief, that's just nuts.
The rule I use is that if it looks too big at the dock, it MIGHT be big enough at sea.
I once got criticized for the ground tackle I carry on my little boat. The critic: an America's Cup veteran with 1000's of sea miles under his keel. And I was told by a third party that he once owned an Alberg 30, but I don't know if that's true.
Anyway, when I told him I carried an 8 lb anchor, 15 ft of chain and 150 ft of nylon as my primary, he laughed and said "boy, where you planning to anchor?" I answered, "Whereever." Incidentally, when CapnK first saw my ground tackle on this boat, he commented that the chain was bigger than he carries on his Ariel. ;D
Sorry for the hijack, but I'll never understand the "that's too big" mentality for deck hardware or ground tackle. Or just about anything else aboard a true working boat, for that matter. Maybe marina queens don't want all that metal in the way?
Don"t ya know.....All that "stuff" on the bow will hang your spinnaker up...Can't have that....
Quote from: TJim on February 25, 2008, 08:47:46 AM
Don"t ya know.....All that "stuff" on the bow will hang your spinnaker up...Can't have that....
Don't worry Jim I'm keeping that in mind ;D
Everything will be lowprofile. I put a Sampson Post on the Potter, but not the Ariel.
Here's a question....
Assuming you dont have a bow roller, you need to run the anchor line through either the port or starboard bow chock.
After you've finished anchoring, the boat seems to lie-to favoring one side or the other (often not the side you ran the rode through).
Any way to predict in advance what side you should run the rode through as you come into the wind to drop the anchor?
Does this make any sense?
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/commanderpete/chocks.jpg)
Quote from: Cmdr Pete on February 25, 2008, 12:20:32 PM
Here's a question....
Assuming you dont have a bow roller, you need to run the anchor line through either the port or starboard bow chock.
After you've finished anchoring, the boat seems to lie-to favoring one side or the other (often not the side you ran the rode through).
Any way to predict in advance what side you should run the rode through as you come into the wind to drop the anchor?
In the mid-latitudes of the northern hemisphere, when a cold front comes through the wind will veer (shift clockwise). The largest anchor is traditionally on the starboard side for this reason. If you're lying to two anchors when a front passes, the shift will have you hanging on your starboard hook until you can adjust (by paying out more rode on that side, etc). Best to have this be your biggest anchor. [That's where the name for the highest card in the game euchre comes from, the "right bower". The second highest card is the "left bower"...]
If you're only using one anchor it doesn't really matter unless you're in a current or waves that are not from the same direction as the wind - in that case the situation will dictate which side is preferable to lead your rode from, as your bow will point slightly to the opposite side from the rode...
Quote from: CharlieJ on February 24, 2008, 09:19:58 PM
(http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1489.0;attach=611;image)
Charlie, how did you attach the wood base anchor roller to your deck? Is it bedded down in something? Glued? Caulked? Are you happy with that setup? No concerns about side to side forces on the wood?
Quote from: Cmdr Pete on February 25, 2008, 12:20:32 PM
Here's a question....
<snip>
After you've finished anchoring, the boat seems to lie-to favoring one side or the other (often not the side you ran the rode through).
<snip>
C'Pete - When that happens with me, I let out some extra rode, re-snub it where it was originally, then haul in the extra rode on the other side, snubbing it there so the boat lies better. If things change, it's just a matter of releasing that side to get back to the other, original side. Maybe that'll help you out. :)
Bill - good answer - Grog! :)
Skylark- here's a side view that barely shows the bolts.
It's bedded in 4200, with four bolts (2 circled on the near side)that hold the lower platform to the deck. That platform is 5/4 mahogany. The nose part (circled up front) is fitted into and under the bronze bow fitting.
The anchor roller platform is also through bolted through the deck and bedded in 4200 with four bolts (near side ones circled). It's doubled 5/4 mahogany, so that part is right at 2 inches thick. Of course all the bolts have either backing plates or fender washers where backing plates wouldn't fit.
The side rails that contain the anchor are through bolted with 6 bolts- one further aft and one each side of the roller shaft which is 5/8 inch stainless. The little aluminum pieces you can see are retainers for the shaft.
We've anchored a bunch of nights with it, and kedged off of groundings several times, with no movement that I can see. When Laura grounded on her cruise, she kedged off and put so much pressure on it that it distorted the roller to where it wouldn't roll. I had to replace it. But the platform sat still, I have had to tighten the bolts that hold the side rails on once, but that's all.
By the way- since this pic was taken permanent chafing gear has been installed on the dock lines, instead of the duct tape you can see in this pic. That was temporary ::)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/25IV2005/22.jpg)
Here is a view of my bow. Notice that there is a hatch that opens up and uses up a lot of room on the foredeck and makes it difficult to install a bow roller. If I did the wooden base bow roller, I would have to put the base under the bow pulpit stanchions and chocks and reinstall with longer bolts. Which would not necessarily be bad because all the through bolts would hold the wood down well.
The problem is that when stored the anchor would be in the way of opening the anchor locker hatch. Even mooring lines are in the way of the hatch. I am almost ready to glue and screw the hatch shut and just use a hawse pipe, and install the ground tackle on top of the hatch. As is it is very difficult to hoist and store my 35lb CQR. But I hate to start hacking on the boat.
Paul - It's an oddball idea, but what about an under-deck horizontal hawsepipe (or two) with roller assembly running out from that anchor locker to a point just over your hull/deck join?
Open the hatch to let out rode, etc...
Probably not a good idea for various reasons, but I thought I'd toss it out there. :) ;D
I've seen Moody sailboats that have a recessed anchor area there, basically what you would have without the hatch. As long as you had good scuppers, and a hawsepipe to below for rode stowage, it'd work well, and help keep any bottom that came up with the anchor from running back down your side decks. You could probably manage to make it to where the hatch could be put back on, if you ever sold the boat.
Paul-
That hatch really makes any modification to the bow ground tackle tough, doesn't it. How much room is in front of the edge of that locker??? Even if there is enough room there to mount a bow roller, I would be a bit hesistant to mount one, as that hatch makes me wonder if it would be strong enough to support the stresses a bow roller sees, since the back edge of the mounting area would be relatively unsupported, since the hatch is right there. I suppose you could glass over the hatch or part of the hatch area, but that would be a fairly major modification.
Just a gentle reminder that the best cleats, chocks and other mooring gear is all only as useful as the backing plates and hardware that holds it down.
I say this as someone that just made a quote for fixing the damage of someone pulling a huge bow cleat straight through their deck!
It was a foam-cored deck (I can hear some of you saying "ah ha" as to the likely cause already) so the reapir is gong to be fairly ugly and unpleasent in terms of what needs doing and the wallet shock it will generate.
Bonus points for recognising the make of boat that runs its original wiring loom to the nav lights THROUGH the foam core and then glasses them in!!!!!
Alex.
Alex,
QuoteJust a gentle reminder that the best cleats, chocks and other mooring gear is all only as useful as the backing plates and hardware that holds it down.
I say this as someone that just made a quote for fixing the damage of someone pulling a huge bow cleat straight through their deck!
Good point. We had a thread on backing plates that I have merged into this one. No discussion of deck hardware is complete without a consideration as to the proper backing of whatever is installed.
(might now be worth while going back and reading this thread from the beginning)
I also came across this article on prepairing a boat for a hurricane written by Bruce Bingham.... (http://www.catamarans.com/news/hurricane/2006/StormSafety.asp)
QuoteAlso consider the adequacy of your boat's deck cleats. When preparing for a hurricane, only one line should be secured to each cleat. Every dock line or line end should have a dedicated cleat, and considering that every dock line should be doubled up to ride out a hurricane, plan on adding cleats to your boat early in the season.
Many studies show that the most frequent failure results from the chafing of line at the rail chock. Even with plenty of the proper chafing gear, the sharp turn of line through a chock causes rapid line disintegration when sawed back and forth under load. BoatU.S. recommends mounting cleats directly onto the rail or in- stalling genoa-track cleats to eliminate chock chafe.
So I have my new 10" Bluewater Herreshoff SS Cleats which I am going to mount on the bow, like as is on Faith. Since they are four hole with about two inches between holes, I am going to use the SS 1/8 " strap between holes, with the epoxy covered ply in between approx. 4x6".
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10375/normal_IMG_0604.JPG)
I am also putting chocks in the stern, but was thinking of going with just the SS strap for backing those.
Whaddyall think?
Tim
Tim-
Those look just like the 10" cleats I put on my boat last year. :) I'd back the chocks with both if you can, since there'll be a lot of load on the chocks when anchored out.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 07, 2008, 04:12:02 PM
Tim-
Those look just like the 10" cleats I put on my boat last year. :) I'd back the chocks with both if you can, since there'll be a lot of load on the chocks when anchored out.
They will be the stern chocks, but hey what the heck I've got the ply ;)
My plan for anchoring is create a bridle/snubber off of both cleats, which will be located near each edge as on Faith
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Cleat1.jpg)
Tim,
QuoteI am going to use the SS 1/8 " strap between holes, with the epoxy covered ply in between approx. 4x6".
That sounds like a good plan. The strap is good if you have it laying around, but good sized fender washers are probably enough if you are also using the epoxy coated ply.....
Which ever you use, I would do the same thing aft... never know when you are going to; Tow a chute... Have to be pulled out from behind... Tow a helpless stinkpot to safety... ;D .... have to weather a storm tied to a dock... you just never know.
Tim- that's how I did Tehani's bow cleats- a strap across and all four holes through the strap. Actually TWO straps- one forward and one on the after end of the cleats
A small strap across the legs on the after cleats would be a good idea also
THe good Captain Ebb has returned my Cowl to me after he concluded to he was going another direction.
I always liked the cowl vent, and never experienced taking significant water below through it.... I removed it since I was heading out for an extended cruise and expected to see big seas... which we did.
I am no longer fearful of having the 3" hole in the bow, with a scoup.... The bow rarely crashes into the waves, and the receptacle can be plugged with a standard 3" PVC pluming cap.
When it was mounted before, I had it on the Stbd side and used it to pass the chain down into the locker. It was really nice being able to pass links even when they were laid up on each other.
SO.... what say the peanut gallery? Should I replace the 1.5" capped chain scuttle and just place this back in same location? Should I leave the cap, and place the cowl on the port side?
What say the gallery?
BTW, if you look at post #48 in this thread you can just see Commander Pete's cowl which is just like mine.
Here is a picture, kinda tough to see... I will look for a better one.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_tcVd2r_be7s/Srhn5E-dYaI/AAAAAAAAAVc/-jYrjqEqeX0/s512/CRW_1530-58.jpg)
I have that cowl setup for my chain on my Potter and have sailed on the SF Bay, Monterey Bay, San Jauns, Gulf Islands and Desolation Sound with no problem with water getting in.
That said, on the Ariel I have a chain hawes pipe and a solar vent.