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Fuels.....?!?!   

I have a fuel problem.  ::)

  I have a gasoline outboard, (two actually, one 2 stroke 100:1 6hp, one 50:1 3hp for the dink.

  I have propane for the magma stove/BBQ, and for the catalytic cabin heater.  This is the fuel I like the least.

  I have butane for my Kenyon stove.  This fuel is easy to store, and takes up less room then the propane. 

  I have just purchased a kerosene cabin heater, so through that into the mix.

I have a small alcohol camp stove, as a 'back up' (not currently carried aboard, but I want to adapt it to a sea-swing).

I have 2 weems and plath anchor lights.  They ask for oil lamp fuel.

Gasoline (two mixes)
Propane
Butane
Kerosene
Alcohol
Oil for lamp

This is kinda silly.  Now, I know that the kerosene should be able to replace the oil lamp oil, although I have not actually burnt the kerosene in the lamps.  They are basically the useless ones anyway (except as anchor lights).

I like the idea of being 'multi-fuel' especially for cooking as I know not all fuels will be available everywhere. 

If nothing else, all of this could make for one heck of a Viking Funeral if needed!  :o  I would prefer to avoid that, and am open to any suggestions as to how.

What fuels are you using?  How are you carrying them?  Why?

I'm:

Gas - propulsion
Gas w/2 stroke oil - dinghy
Propane - stove, heater (for away from dock)
Lamp oil - Lamp :D
Alcohol - Alternative stove

Ships power is provided by a 50W solar panel mounted aft, battery bank is 2 x 12V (one grp 24, one grp 27 at present, changing that soon to a 2x Trojan T105 golf cart battery setup). I would like to get one of the quiet, fuel sipping Honda/Yamaha 4 stroke 1kW gensets eventually, so that'll be "Gas" too.

Propane sure is easy, and hot. The explosive part can be dealt with, like it is with Gas. Still, I wonder about availability in far flung destinations, and may move away from it to,like yourself, a multi-fuel campstove hung in a gimballed rig of my own making.

If I get a campstove that'll burn kero, then I could use that in both the lamp and the stove. However, using solar power to keep the house bank charged makes for easy fluorescent and LED lighting, which is sure cooler in warm air than a burning lamp.

Alcohol as an alternative stove fuel is an easy choice. I've used the beer-can type KISS stoves for a few years, but just a few weeks ago had one "blow up" on me for the first time (in my dinghy, underway, far out in the Santee River delta - that's a story for another time... :)). I'm not sure why that happened, but I am glad it happened when and where I was, except for the fact that I threw my Sterno stove into the water along with the "burner" when it all caught fire. :D Had I been belowdecks, I probably would have just tossed it in the sink, but it did scatter flaming alcohol around a bit, and that was a bit eyebrow-raising. Those alchy KISS stoves are a good thing, being able to make one in a few minutes from 2 drink cans is nice.

Currently on-board Zen:

Inboard motor needs Gas; I'm considering converting to diesel, but...that is still underconsideration.

Propane; for the BBQ

Oil lamp oil: for the... thats right..oil lamp. Can use Kero, but, not as clean burning.

Stove is manuel pump kero or Alcohol. I have to check which. Have not used it yet. I had thought of switching to propane below, but...scary. I'll need to run some test on which way to go for under passage.

Amorous has an Atomic 4 which I will keep as I know about it and love the quiet running and relatively high power.

I have a 15 hp Johnson OB for the dink which is kinda heavy but lots of fun on the 10' Avon.  (36 knots!)

I use propane for the cook stove and folding oven and wouldn't change that either.  Baking is so much easier with the even heat of propane and to me' that's important.

I also have oil lamps but only use them as backup so only carry a couple of those quart bottles of lamp oil that you can buy at wal-mart.

I have an Atomic 4 on Mojito with a newer 15 gallon tank under the starboard locker for gasoline. I also have a fantastic Magma grill that burns propane. I don't have a propane system on board. Rather, I use the small cylinders. I also have a small camping stove that burns butane, though I've never used the stove. I store the butane and propane containers in the galley.

Quote from: Triton218 on December 20, 2005, 03:52:00 PM
I use the small cylinders. I also have a small camping stove that burns butane, though I've never used the stove. I store the butane and propane containers in the galley.

I heard of someone using a camping stove with the propane burners. He installed in the the place where the old alcoh. burners were. He said he was happy with the arangement.

I am pleased with the way the Mag. cooks, I am unsure how practical it would be out at sea or at night. So I would want some simple/safe way of cooking below. Seems like there are many ways to do that, everyone is happy with their way seems like.

QuoteI am pleased with the way the Mag. cooks, I am unsure how practical it would be out at sea or at night. So I would want some simple/safe way of cooking below. Seems like there are many ways to do that, everyone is happy with their way seems like.

It's why I have a stern pulpit! I remember cooking hotdogs on the Grand Banks on an old charcoal grill that slid into a rod holder. The grate was attached poorly and would rotate as the boat rolled. By camparison, the Magma is like having a 10 burner Viking range on board.

Regardless of how it's cooked, though, food always tastes better on the water.

I have the propane camp stove arrangement in place of the old alcohol stove too and am way happy with it.  The counter has a cutout for the original stove and the stainless camp stove is fastened in that after lining the entire thing with stainless steel.  Another great thing about it is that it is fully usable at sea because the front drops for access to the control knobs but can then be closed and holds the dutch oven in place.  My folding oven also sits perfectly into the cutout.  AND.. I can replace the entire thing anytime I might need to for 30 bucks or so!

Hmmm, thats interesting. The other guy said the same. I am thinking of the practicality of that move. I can pickup a propane camp stove used, cheap.

Fuel is cheap, easy to store... safe?

How safe is anything... it all needs to be cared for correctly, right!

Ahh, what about gimbals for the pots while underway. How is that handled in your floater? Keeping the spilling to a min?

I suppose just to make tea or coffee you could use one of those water heating 12volt coils, that just drops in the cup and heats the water.

Diesel Yanmar 2GM
Kerosens Force 10 heater
Lamp oil for lamp
alcohol to heat and light the force 10
Gasoline for honda outboard , Dinghy.
Propane for the oven and grill
Rum for me
Wine for the wife

I use a Kenyon butane single burner stove (like the sort used in catering, available from any restaraunt supply house). It has good flame control at low and will boil a quart of water in about 90 seconds at high. Butane cylindars are reasonably cheap and moderately easy to find.

QuoteI use a Kenyon butane single burner stove (like the sort used in catering, available from any restaraunt supply house). It has good flame control at low and will boil a quart of water in about 90 seconds at high. Butane cylindars are reasonably cheap and moderately easy to find.

  That is the same unit I have.  It works well at the dock or on the hook.

  OBTW, Just in case anyone is still buying their Butane at WM for $4.99 a pop, WalMart (the poor man's WM) now carries them in their camping section for $1.89!

     Which fuels do you use/carry aboard?
Gasoline X
Diesel
Kerosene X Actually I use 100% mineral spirits instead of kerosene
Propane X
Alcohol X
Butane
Oil lamp oil
CNG
all electric
Other (please explain)

We cook on an Origo 2 burner alcohol (non-pressure) stove. We really like it.

We heat with a 1500 watt electric heater when we are at the dock with shore power. It has done a good job down to temps as low as 20F. When we are out of the marina, we heat with a "Shipmate" Kerosene (vented) heater. We use 100% mineral spirits in this instead of Kerosene and it works very well. This has also kept the boat toasty warm in temps down to 20F. We also have a Deitz "Hurricane 80" kerosene lantern that we use for an anchor/cabin/cockpit light and a Den Hahn kerosene, gimballed lantern that we can use for lighting the cabin. These also use the 100% mineral spirits for fuel. We also carry a clay flower pot to put (inverted) on the cooKing stove for heat if for some reason we need it. When away from the dock we can be pretty much non-electric if we want.

Our 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke takes regular gas and our Honda EU 1000 inverter/generator takes the same when we bring it along, which is not often. For other propulsion, I also carry a 9 1/2 foot oar which I can use to scull our Flicka, This runs on PB&Js ;D

We do have a Magma propane grill which hangs on the aft rail. We keep a couple of the 1 lb propane cylinders out in the cockpit locker to power that.
   

QuoteWhen we are out of the marina, we heat with a "Shipmate" Kerosene (vented) heater. We use 100% mineral spirits in this instead of Kerosene and it works very well. This has also kept the boat toasty warm in temps down to 20F.

I just purchased a 'Shipmate' heater, and am awaiting delivery.  I had heard of adding a 'splash' of denatured Alcohol to the Kero, but not the mineral spirits.

The guy I am buying it from had only used it a couple times and was a little fuzzy on the operation.  I may need to 'pick you brain' once it gets here.

  I look forward to no longer relying on my propane heater for those cold nights on the hook, I have never really felt comfortable with that thing......

pre mix for the 8hp - Sailmaster which charges the batteries
propane for my camp stove and lamp/heater - I've found that the coleman propane camp lite will heat my cabin enuff on the few cold nites I need it and provides some reading or gaming lite at the same time.
two group 27 batteries for house lites and entertainment

Thats it for this boat - who knows about the next

I know I am going to be coined the know it all aroud this board... but I will feel better giving you all the knowledge I have painstakinly obtained over a decade on the water.
Do not carry gas on your boat. Except in small amounts. Such as dink fuel.
Two years ago I was restoreing an old 40' stink-pot (power boat) And in the coarse of about five minutes I was helicoptered to the nearest burn ward with 2nd & 3rd degree burns over 70% of my body. My boat sank ( what was left of it) 3 other boats sank or were totaled out by the insurence company. All because of gasoline fumes, Plus the 2 tanks of propane for cooking. If you are considering useing your boat for offshore work. A diessel engine is a nessesity, One, diesel is much easyer and less costly to obtain, Secondly the maitnece and reliability is much better than gas. For cooking Propane is great. I have a great propane stove on my boat... but as soon as I can find a diesel/kerosene stove/oven that I can afford, I will float test the thing.Two problems with propane. One, its dangerous (see above) Also if it leaks you will not know it and it is heavier than air so it tends to find its way into living quarters. Secondly, it is very difficult to find when visiting far off places. and if you do find it ,you better have multible fittings for connection to fill. These places are not standarized like the states. Not to mention the cost!!! Diesel is easy to find and kerosene is universal, Yes these types of stoves are a pain in the a@# to use but if this was easy everybodie would be doing it...
Again this is for offshore work. If you are a coastie or a lake runner, propane is a great way to cook, just know the danger and have systems to alert you if there is a problem. As for those rail mout BBQ's I love mine. When at the dock I use propane and when I venture further out I remove the propane fitting and use solid fuel. ( wood or what ever I can find that burnes) Drift wood gives a great flavor if dryed.
Cheers
D

Excuse all the gramar and spelling errors, Im a sailor not a english proffesor :)

Aboard Tehani we carry gasoline for the engine and kerosene for the stove and lamps. We have an oil lamp inside and also use a deitz oil lantern as an anchor light 

Actually we don't carry kerosene- we carry 100% Mineral Spirits. I think I'm the guy who got Oldguy52 started using the stuff ;) I've used 100% Mineral spirits in stoves and lamps for 30 years now. It burns cleaner than todays kerosene and can usually be found at a lower cost. I look for cans labeled "Paint Thinner" that have a second line that says "100% Mineral Spirits" If it doesn't have that second line I don't buy it.

We also carry a bottle of 91% rubbing alcohol to use to preheat the kerosene burner on the stove. Smells better than denatured ;)

In my gallery pics is one of our stove in use underway- I don't know how to make it show up here, but it's labeled "Galley stove-heeled in Mississippi Sound"

S/V Faith- I would never add a "splash" of anything to the mineral spirits , or kerosene for that matter. The fuel is one of the hotter ones in stoves-doesn't need a splash of anything- just proper preheating of the burners.

QuoteIn my gallery pics is one of our stove in use underway- I don't know how to make it show up here, but it's labeled "Galley stove-heeled in Mississippi Sound"

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/tilted-stove-2.jpg)

 I had a gas outboard, and a multi fuel camping stove, that I used as a grill....just sit it in the cockpit, in comfort and cook breakfast or dinner. I also did a lot of grill cooking but that was on shore using wood. I plan on putting a grill on the railing  on the stern and using wood to cook with when I go cruising as an alternitive to gas. maybe not everyday, but I will try and see if it will save money, thus extending my cruise kitty. lol.
Bill

I carry propane only in the small bottles use and thro away.2 for about $4.50.one bottle lasts about 8 hrs.these are easy to store and for the most part easy to store.propane is given a garlic-type odor so its easy to smell.I keep several onb

I carry propane only in the small bottles use and thro away.2 for about $4.50.one bottle lasts about 8 hrs.these are easy to store and for the most part safe to store.propane is given a garlic-type odor so its easy to smell.I keep several onboard all the time...when its time for a voyage about 20 will do just fine

I have an 11hp Diesal Universal engine.  Fuel tank is 10 gal, I carry 2- 5 gal cans too that fit under the helmstation seat. 
I carry several 1# propane bottles for the barbeque grill on the stern rail.
I have the Origo nonpressurized 2 burner stove and use denatured alcohol.
I also have an oil lamp and carry the clean lamp oil for that.
I have a little Coleman heater that uses the propane bottles for anchoring out on chilly nights and if at dockside, I plug in a fan heater.  Both keep the boat toasty.   I also have a toaster oven I can bake in if at dockside.  When I head to the Bahamas, I will probably leave that at home.  :0

test image

(http://www.griffithart.com/images/anchoredatdawn.jpg)

had the same problem and ended up with diesel, propane and some high grade candle oil for the interior lamps. I just kept cutting away the need for anything else until the types of fuel was manageable and then concentrated on safety.  Electricity has taken the place of some items and for that it's solar panels and a wind generator...

M.

Revised poll to add 'Mineral spirits' and to allow people to change votes.

  Some good info in this thread, wonder if anyone (else) has changed their fuel use?

I no longer carry alcohol onboard (it is in the dock box).

  Mineral Spirits have taken the place of the lamp oil and kerosene, I have not run them in the heater yet as the tank is still full (the flue is not perminantly mounted yet).

Deisel for the inboard.
Propane for the stove.
electric for the tender outboard.

We keep some acetone on board for cleaning.


Alex.

Gasoline for the outboard, propane for the stove and barbeque grill, butane for the lighters, and lamp oil for the cabin lamp.

I think the biggest problem with LPG (whether propane or butane) is not the gas (assuming proper installation and handling) but the connectors. I have Swedish connections on the propane tanks (that I can hopefully convert to OPG once I burn through the fuel load I still have from the Azores) for the cooker, the screw-on type for small propane cylinders for the grill, and push-to-fill type for a butane soldering iron. I have a good-sized gas locker, but still have to fiddle around and pad stuff to keep things from rattling and wearing through. A pain.

Dave -

Those connectors are the things that you always read about as one of the things to be prepared for when using LPG on a cruising boat. Before I leave, I'll have to find a source for the ones I can expect to see on my route, I reckon.

Aren't yours Swedish because that is where the boat was built?

How about a pic of that gas locker, if you can. :)

The best resource for LPG connections in Europe is Jack Tyler's site http://www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/NA%20LPG%20in%20Europe.htm for Whoosh.

I'll get pictures up as soon as I can. I do have a bit bigger boat than the audience here, but perhaps what I have can spark some creativity.

What are some good ideas on how to transfer fuel without spilling and getting stinky?

For example if you have a 5 gallon jug of gas, and you want to fill your outboard gas tank.  Would you siphon?  or fill with the spout? Do you have any other methods to avoid smelling like gas afterwards?

(http://www.cruisenews.net/tanzer/22V2005/79.jpg)

Another question, is there a good way to fill kerosene lamps and stoves? I use a funnel but too often overfill the stove, then have to mop it up quick before it drips.  I'm sure there is a better way.

I have an idea to use one of those small plastic pesticide sprayers.  Fill it with kerosene and pump up the pressure, then use the dispenser to fill the stove or lamp.  I will test this out when I can get back aboard.

Skylark- that's an easy one.

We have a fuel bulb and hose  from an outboard. Doesn't matter what kind.

I stick the long end down into the gas can, the other end into the motor tank and squeeze til I get the syphon  running- then just monitor it until the tank is as full as I want. Set the big jug on the cockpit seat and the motor tank in the sole of the cockpit.

The hose is too large for our kerosene lanterns and our stove so I shoved a small chunk of copper tubing in the end- the copper tubing fits the lanterns and stove exactly BUT it's hard to stop the syphon at exactly the right level -

SOOO

I either syphon or pour the correcxt amount into one of those aluminum fuel containers- Wal mart has them now- the spun aluminum ones. Then I syphon that into the stove or lantern.

Easy

That´s a REALLY good idea, Charlie. Thanks... urmm, no patents pending I hope  8)

The section of hose with a priming bulb in it is the way to go...you don't risk getting a mouthful of kerosene, diesel or gasoline—as you would with a regular siphon, and it is pretty fool proof.  Also, outboard motor fuel lines are relatively resistant to most fuels. If you're going to use it with gasoline, make sure you get the newer fuel hose that is also alcohol resistant, since most gasolines nowadays seem to have ethanol in them. 

I would highly recommend you not use an insecticide sprayer with any kind of fuel... unless you've switched out the hose and nozzle, which may not be fuel resistant, it is a pretty good bomb.  Once you pressurize it, any small leaks will atomize the fuel in to a mist that is probably quite flammable.  In fact, gasoline under pressure and a good nozzle is a great way to make an FAE... which is not something you want on board a boat. Also, if you forget to depressurize the sprayer and it is stowed with any fuel in it..it is just a bomb waiting to go off. 

My problem with the hose method is that I am a flake.  ;)

  I have used it a few times, and have forgotten about it until I started smelling fuel.  :o

  Once was aboard the boat... not gonna say any more about that, and the next time was filling 5 gal cans from a full 19 gal tank I had on the tailgate of the truck. Then there was one time after Hurricane Ivan (same 19 gallon tank) filling the generator.

  The problem I had was that the smaller diameter tube takes so long to transfer the fuel that I loose track before it is done.


  I still keep a length of 3/8" fuel hose aboard to be able to do this... but prefer to use the funnel.

  I just took a look online, and did not find a picture of the one I use... but it was purchased from an autoparts store, and is about 18" long.  It works pretty well, and I can use it without spilling a drop in most conditions.

 

 

Couldn't you plumb a T on the fuel supply side of the bulb as an "off valve?"  Keep your finger over it for "on" and when the tank/can/whatever gets about where you want it, pop off the finger.  This will break the siphon.

Charlie, as for using those smaller aluminum fuel bottles (like back packers carry??), I use one of those little rings that fit around the cap.  It has a large hole/spout for pouring and a small hole for a vent.  You pour with your finger over the vent (but not touching), then when you want to stop the flow, finger to the vent.  Works like a charm.  To store, loosen the cap and twist the ring 90 degrees (it has to line up with a hole in the cap if your bottle is like the ones I am thinking of), but I keep mine tied to the cap with a piece of string.  I've used this set-up camping for well over a decade.

The kind of bottle I mean:

(http://www.campmor.com/images/acc/80088.jpg)

I also have one of these (not the ring I mentioned above) and it works similarly, but replaces the cap rather than fits around it:

(http://www.campmor.com/images/acc/80360.jpg)

Yep- that's the bottles I meant- we have a couple that we use for our ready supply of Mineral Spirits for the stove and lanterns. I fill them as needed from our large container of Spirits.

Got a pic of the ring thing you are speaking of? I 've never seen one of those, but it sounds interesting.

As for breaking the siphon, all you have to do is pull the end from the large jug- does the same thing. And when I'm transferring fuel into the boat tank, I'm usually in the cockpit and we may be underway- I STAY there and watch the level constantly. We carry a pair of 3 gallon fuel tanks so it only takes a few minutes to fill one. And I usually only have to do it once a day underway, since we got the 4 stroke motor. The two 3 gallon tanks will run us about 15 hours starting from full.

Speaking of fuel...can anyone tell me if the poly tanks are suitable for diesel fuel?

BobLamb
CP23d

Quote from: CharlieJ on March 09, 2007, 10:09:04 AM

Got a pic of the ring thing you are speaking of? I 've never seen one of those, but it sounds interesting.

I did some searching for my last post and could not find any. I bought it YEARS ago and they may not even be made anymore.  I'll see if I can take a pic of the one I have.

Quote from: boblamb

can anyone tell me if the poly tanks are suitable for diesel fuel?

If by poly you mean polyethylene then yes they can be used.  There are polyethylene fuel (gasoline and diesel) tanks on the market.

Edit to fix quote tag.

I believe the fuel tanks must be made of crosslinked polyethylene, rather than the linear polyethylene used in water tanks.

RE: the fuel line hose with bulb, great tip, thanks.

It just so happens I bought one today for another purpose, I will have to go back and get another for siphoning.

I got on board Skylark for the first time in a few months, all is well, except the water in the bilge is ice. Oh well, it won't be long now.

I checked out the 1 gallon pesticide sprayer, which I had originally bought to use as a shower.  I think this will work well.  It does not need high pressure to move the liquid and there is a thumb operated valve that will make it easy to fill the stove and oil lamps.  It will be easy to depressurize.  I will have to test the parts to see if they are affected by kerosene.

skylark-

Might be easier and safer to use another fuel line hose and primer bulb setup for the kerosene.  It is just as easy to control, and easier to stow. 

really no need for two- just another thing to stow. one works fine for either fuel- there's so little residue either way you'd never be able to tell it was there.

By the way- I don't use kerosene- we burn 100 % Mineral Spirits

The pressure tank (pesticide sprayer) is for filling the stove and lamps only, not for transferring large amounts of fuel. 

There are some good points made on the risks of using a pressurized tank.  In particular, I am concerned if the valve, tubing and tank material of the pesticide sprayer can handle kerosene.  However there are a number of examples of "pressure tanks" on board which apparently are considered safe enough to carry.  For example, a can of WD40 is essentially pressurized kerosene.  Spray can paints are often pressurized with butane and the paint itself is volatile.  The pesticide sprayer tank would only be pressurized when needed to dispense the kerosene.  So in terms of risk management, I think the pressurized kerosene fuel aspect of it is pretty low risk.

In the stove and lamps I also use mineral spirits rather than kerosene.  I am using the term "kerosene" even though the available grades of kerosene are not of adequate quality to run in a lamp.  I have never tried gas station kerosene in the stove, I assume it would work but maybe clog up the burner ports.  In any case, I use mineral spirits in lamps and stove.

Yes, WD40 is basically pressurized kerosene, or close enough that it doesn't matter significantly.  However, the can it is in was designed to handle WD40 under pressure... a bug sprayer generally isn't designed to handle flammable liquids under pressure.  Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

This means that if you store kerosene or mineral spirits in the sprayer, even if you remember to depressurize it, it may end up leaking the contents unexpectedly.  Not exactly an ideal situation.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 10, 2007, 09:22:20 PM

Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

Huh? A LOT of insecticides are delivered in hydrocarbon solvents.

Not the ones that are generally used in the "plastic insecticide" sprayer type containers...most of these are water-based.

My guess is that he is talking about a container like this

(http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/130306_3.jpg)

Yes, that is the type. 

Easy enough to test it, and my gut tells me it will be fine.  Did it come with some instructions that specifically said NOT to use it for hydrocarbon based solutions?

CapnSmollett—

While I don't know what brand of garden sprayer Skylark is using... i would point out this website (http://www.onlinedirect.hills.com.au/cattleprod/products/E0000SPR) for a common brand of them which says the following:

QuoteTerminate unwanted weeds and pests in your garden with Hills' range of quality garden pressure sprayers, available in 5 and 7 litre capacities. The Hills Sprayers are designed to be used with a broad range of water-based pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers. Do not use industrial chemicals, solvents or hydrocarbon-based liquids, as these may damage the sprayer.

(http://www.baileyladders.com.au/resource/bundle.1/illusionId=7102&c=published&f=image:jpeg&w=127&h=127/resource/hero.jpg)

I somehow doubt that one company is making a garden sprayer that is significantly different from the others in the same market... and the above quote would seem to contradict your "gut" feeling. 

Does EVERY little point that is made on this forum have to constantly be argued?  It is getting tiresome.

My gut feeling is worthless; it's a figure of speech used to say "try it, the worse that will happen is it won't work."  That's better, imo, than always telling people "what you think is wrong or won't work."  That's why I said "test it."  And that's why I referenced the instructions for the sprayer.

Geez.

I was concerned for Skylark's safety... maybe you're not. 

Using an unapproved container to hold flammable liquids is not exactly the best idea, given that one of the biggest dangers aboard a small sailboat is fire.  I'd rather argue in favor of safety than have him act as a guinea pig. 

The fuel bulb transfer hose is more compact and known to be "safe" for use in transferring fuel.  While a pressurized container might be more convenient, since the container is not designed for holding fuel, it could also be much more dangerous in the long run.

The worst that will happen in this case is that flammable fuel will end up leaking in the boat or spraying into the boat's cabin. 

Besides Capn Smollett-

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 10, 2007, 09:27:26 PM

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 10, 2007, 09:22:20 PM

Most insecticides aren't liquid hydrocarbon-based... and the valves, seals and hoses on a standard insecticide sprayer may not be resistant to fuel-type solvents. 

Huh? A LOT of insecticides are delivered in hydrocarbon solvents.

Might want to practice what you are preaching.

I appreciate the concern and take the warning seriously.  I will still experiment with this but will err on the side of caution.

Another question:  Can PVC pipe be used to make a kerosene tank?  I am trying to install a kerosene heater and I have room for a 6"x6"x48" tank under my hard dodger.  I would like to take a 6" pvc pipe and put an end cap on one end, and a reducer tee with a 2" riser (plus end cap) on the other end.

Can PVC and PVC adhesive hold up to kerosene?

Most PVC adhesives are just PVC and solvent IIRC.  PVC, like acrylic, is "melted" to become a single piece rather than really being "glued" from what I recall.   I don't know what PVC's tolerance for kerosene is, but it would depend on the type of PVC, which can range quite a bit... from the flexible stuff they use in inflatable rafts to the hard stuff used in plumbing pipe.  My understanding is that the softer and more flexible the PVC, the more plasticizers that it has mixed into it.

Skylark- can't speak to using the PVC with any pressure, but when I was doing black powder stuff, I soaked my ramrod stock in kerosene. I had a 5 foot long piece of 2 inch PVC with caps on each end, one screw on, the other glued. That held up just fine for about 12 years or so, with no ill effects.

I wouldn't have any concerns with the kerosene reacting with the PVC for sure.

As to pressure, the surge tanks on my Hookah dive gear are made from PVC with end caps glued on. They hold up to the pressure from the compressor with no trouble and they are 25 years old now.

Wal-Mart sells an orderless clean burning Kerosene for lamps that comes in 1/2 gallons. It is in the candle and lamp section. I have used it and it burns very cleanly and has no odor. Dan

What's the cost per 1/2 gallon?

Twice in the last couple weeks I was reminded the the utility of a smallish glass container (at least 1/2 a gallon) for diagnosing fuel problems.

  Pour the suspect fuel into the glass container and allow it to settle.  The water will float to the bottom and you can see if it is a problem.  Alcohol fuels willtake slightly longer to settle, but it works ok for them too.

  in a pinch where you really need the fuel, you can slowly pour the gas back into a jerry jug one container at a time stopping before you pour any water.

  Things like stp gas treatment and 'heet' will make it hard to get the water to settle.  It will take a long time, and may not work on the boat.... but worth carrying at least one glass bottle / jar (preferably clear) onboard for the purpose.

A water/fuel separating filter funnel is also a good thing to have aboard any boat. 

In previous posts I've read of using mineral spirits as lamp fuel for the brass kerosene lamps...  Are these basically the same thing chemically?  Any other recommendations, especially fuels that avoid the soot from burning kero?

Can't really speak for chemically, as I'm just an old wood butcher. But I grew up using kerosene appliances. When I was a kid we called our lamps "coal oil" 
lamps ;D and used a kerosene cook stove in the house.

The kerosene that was available in the 40s and early 50s was very different from what is around today. Many people used it on a regular basis and it was more highly refined- the stuff we got then was water white and burned cleanly. The kerosene available today is a urine yellow in color and doesn't burn nearly as cleanly. Plus it's gotten much more expensive.

So some 30 years ago now- hmmm- 1973? I began searching for a better fuel. I found 100% Mineral Spirits. At that time, mineral spirits was both cheaper than kerosene and much cleaner burning. I used true kerosene in some heaters back then and the fumes would burn your eyes. As soon as we switched to mineral spirits, the fumes went away. By 1977 or so, I was heating a full time lived in cabin  by the way. Also cooking daily on a 3 burner kero stove.

NOW, the mineral spirits is more expensive, but still usually less than kero. But it's still just as clean burning. Doesn't clog up heater or lamp wicks as much and doesn't clog stove orfices as badly, so I keep using it.

Lamp oil is just plain to durned expensive.  ;D

I see, on my side of the pond I am aware of 2 differernt qualities. 'Light paraffin/kerosene'  and another one called 'paraffin oil' or 'lamp oil'. Lamp oil is usually a bit more expensive, but FAR cheaper than propane/butane.

Neither of these fumes or soots provided you've trimmed your wick. (uhrm, on the lamp that is  ;) )

BTW, both are clear as water, as opposed to diesel nowadays always being mixed with some 5% vegetable oil.

Yabut- over there you still have some sense on things like this. And people who actually USE the stuff, instead of playing with it.

I've long felt that many people on your side of the pond had more boating brains than an awful lot of the folks who own boats over here. Not all mind you , but a good many.

The english for example seem to do quite well cruising on boats that over here wouldn't even get considered as bay sailors.  Small , simple, properly equiped for the task, and USED.

which is one reason the people on THIS forum are here  ;D

Quote from: CharlieJ on June 01, 2007, 12:01:20 PM
Yabut- over there you still have some sense on things like this. And people who actually USE the stuff, instead of playing with it.

I've long felt that many people on your side of the pond had more boating brains than an awful lot of the folks who own boats over here. Not all mind you , but a good many.

The english for example seem to do quite well cruising on boats that over here wouldn't even get considered as bay sailors.  Small , simple, properly equiped for the task, and USED.

which is one reason the people on THIS forum are here  ;D

I've only visited the US once, and that was a one week charter trip to NY City. Nice vacation,  but we didn't get to see much criúising boats... 8)

You're probably right, though, given that the mantra for lots of people in the US is 'biiger is better'
but the trend here is definetely towards 'floating condo's' aswell.

...makes the oldish, smallish but goodish boats cheaper for us, that's ONE advantage anyway.  ;D

Hi All,

I'd like to be able to filter the fuel held in the tank from time to time to remove any water or debris. I've heard of Bermuda Fuel filter where you siphon or pump the tank fuel through to clean it up. Is this a product that can be bought somewhere or do I need to construct it?
Is there some other way to accomplish this task?

Thanks for the advice
Oded Kishony

Are you talking gasoline or diesel? 

They do make water/fuel separating filters, normally called Baja Filter funnels (http://www.bajafilters.com/index.html), which do a pretty good job of separating fuel (gas or diesel) from water and most particulates.  If you created a siphon hose that could feed fuel into Baja type filter, you could effectively "polish" your fuel that way. 

Thanks,

I found nothing useful when I searched for 'Bermuda Filter' but 'Baja Filter' resulted in this informative article:

http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html

Thanks again,
Oded

Oded-

Glad to help.  One of my friends has the WM filter mentioned in the article and swears by it.. also has a Baja filter, but says the WM is easier to use and clean.

Took the plunge and bought the WM unit. I also purchased a 'siphon pump' from 'Harbor tools' (good place for bargain tools)

Should I empty the tank into a holding tank, then let it sit for a while to allow any water to seperate, then filter it?

Thanks,
Oded

I would run it through the filter into  the holding tank.  Then let it sit a while, and then back through the filter in to the main fuel tank.  That way it gets filtered twice. 

One minor problem you'll probably run into is that the new ethanol blends tend to have more problems with water absorbtion, since alcohol acts as an solvent and allows the water to go into suspension in the gasoline.  If the water goes above 1.5% by volume or so, it will cause the alcohol to separate out IIRC, and then you'll lose the primary octane booster, and end up with gasoline at 82 octane or so.

If you're talking about diesel...never mind the above...

>If you're talking about diesel...never mind the above...<

Yup, diesel.

~OK

I went to a truck junkyard and got en electric diesel fuel pump out of a fairly sizeable truck. !2 volt, doesn't weigh much.

A few modifications to return nozzles and such meant I had a really rather remarkably high-volume pump, which could be hooked onto the outflow of the fuel tank with minimal effort (loosening and tightening two hose clamps). The hose then runs form the fuel pump to the 4litre capacity seperation filter with various particle sperating filters and such and then on through to another hose which runs...straight into my fuel intake on deck. This is kind of cool, as the hose that goes into the deck filler is quite stiff and I put a slight bend into it with a heat gun (before it had ever carried diesel!). Once I start the process with a 1/4 - 1/2 full tank or so I can ram the hose that is returning clean fuel to the bottom of the tank and scoot it around to agitate the bottom sediment and gunk....Which gets to get sucked through the filter. So about ten to fifteen minutes of jiggling the hose around in the tank will well and trully "polish" the fuel and clean the tank as well.

If the gap at the bottom of any tank baffles is not large enough for the hose to get under then this may not work very well for you.


I have no idea of the brand of my filter. It looks like a plastic 4litre oil jerry can with extra ins and outs for the hoses and a removable filter panel...it still has the moulded in handle and the screw cap for pouring out water it captures.

It has no markings on it, it came with the boat and its use was explained to me by the previous owner. The truck pump was my addition, I was a bit worried that the pump may set up too high a flow rate and pressure...but it worked fine.


Alex.

Hi Alex,

I saw something similar to this offered for rent ($$$) at my marina.

Is there any 'cleaning solvent' that could be added to the tank when it's empty?

Oded

There are people that swear by some acetone swished through to clean the tank. Other people like a dash of methylated spirits to capture any water and bring it out as an ecapsulated gel.

I figure having an encapsulated gel bubble of water going into your engine is probably worse then just water. And while I have used acetone in petrol tanks, I am not sure of what it would do with diesel, so I have simply used time and the jiggling hose method. Basically, however gunked up your tank is, if you cannot clean it with half an hour of spraying fuel up and around the inside of it, it is time to open the inspection hatch and give it a scrub...or instal an inspection hatch!


Alex.

Having portable external fuel tanks it is not a problem for me. For those others that have built in tanks. One could remove the fuel guage, heel the boat over and sift weight to the stern or bow, get a small hose and suck the remaining contents out. One should also flush/scrub the bottom of the taks as mich possible as these remains do clogs filters.

6 gallon gas tank with 1:50 mix in the gas locker, and 1 bag of selflit charcoal for the grill :)

I saw @ wallmart a camping stove that works with gasoline for 70 bucks? Is that right? I do have a small alcohol 2 burner stove, but I removed along with the galley (too much weight)

Gus

Almost all people on boats do not use a gasoline stove. to much danger of the fumes exloding.  I have the 1 burner propane from West Marine. I just do not need a 2 burner.

Gus-

If it is a pressurized gasoline stove... it is fairly dangerous for use on a boat.  For ease of use and convenience, I'd go with a propane stove.  For economy, a Diesel or Kerosene stove might be good if you plan to cruise long-term.

Thanks! I wasen't planning in buying it... too big, and I didn't like the idea of using regular gas to cook. My old galley stove that came original with the boat is in good condition, but I couldn't find the marine denaturalized alcohol anywhere.

West Marine carries it.

any decent hardware or paint store should have denatured alcohol. It's the thinner for shellac. You don't need "marine"

Make sure that you burn the stove at home first to check the fumes. I have also heard 180 proof hard liquor works but a bit more expensive.

I would be a little cautious with self lighting charcoal.  My wife bought some by mistake.  Self lighting charcoal flames like crazy, even more than when I use lighter fluid, and I use a lot of fluid.  I think it is a hazard to store self lighting charcoal on a boat. 

"kerosene" in the us is really closer to #1 diesel or winter diesel without the red dye. I used to add 20% "mineral spirits" and it seemed to keep the smoke down. If there is an small airport near you that will take small jets then buy jet fuel from them if they have a  pump.


I found this article that clears things up pretty well.

It appearrs "lamp oil" is mineral spirits with a different label to rip off consumers.

http://www.milesstair.com/kero_fuel_primer.html

What an interesting site. Thank you for the link. I've used mineral spirits for years in stoves and lamps. I've never tried low odor mineral spirits, but I sure intend to now.

your welcome. I used the big round kero heaters in the shop for years but the smell was terrible. I started buying it from the little airport and it was much better cuz the guy at the gas station said the "kerosene" they sold was just winter diesel without the red dye.

Im repeating from another thread.

http://www.milesstair.com/kero_fuel_primer.html

Check this out. Appearently "kerosene" sold today is #1 winter diesel without red dye.

"Lamp oil" is mineral spirits repackaged to rip off consumers.

Great reference, thanks!

I looked for a online supplier. The shipping is the issue it seems "hazmat" so best bet is to order a couple 5 gallon pails from home depot or whoever is local to get the best deal because they are already getting it shipped. You may have to wait for it but you will save some dough. The "Odorless" kind is only 5% more it seems so it sounds worth it to me.

Kingfisher wrote;

QuoteI know I am going to be coined the know it all aroud this board... but I will feel better giving you all the knowledge I have painstakinly obtained over a decade on the water.
Do not carry gas on your boat. Except in small amounts.

  Having a gasoline motor, I have to carry gasoline.  I do respect it, and will not let it into any lockers, or below decks.

  My plan for cruising is to carry a max fuel load of 34 gallons.  That would only be carried when making a crossing when fuel is a difficult to come by, safety item.

  I will swap my 6 gallon tank I currently use (stowed in the lazy-rat) for a 13 gallon tank that came with the boat.  I will carry 4, 5 gallon cans lashed to the shrouds and life lines amidships.  I looked at using the 6.5 gallon cans, to go to 40 gallons, but they are much tougher to lug around, and sit high enough to add windage above the cabin top.  (not to mention if you have a 6.5 gallon can, you are more likely to fill it it 6.5 gallons, and if you have to carry it far it gets HEAVY. 

  Oh yea, and the one gallon can for the dingy motor.

I carry gas on my boat because I cannot get a diesel outboard. All is above decks and I carry 30 gal's. 90 miles at WOT and over 330 at 5 mph. All fuel must be respected.

The only safe fuel is the wind. Well, unless is it blowing over 45 knots.

Diesel outboards are now available.

Diesel outboard are about 3-5 times the price of the equivalent power unit in even 4stroke petrol.

Spare parts and service is also harder to come by and way more expensive (though, I hope, more rarely needed)

I really like the concept of diesel outboards....I just don't think the reality has made them practical for low-mid budget owners.

One of the Coast Guard patrol boats in our state has been outfitted with twin diesel outboards, no idea how well it works for them, but they also had to do a lot of vessel trimming in order to cope with the much greater weight of the new diesels.

Sasha

one other point is that diesels are HEAVY, even in outboard form. I've seen the Yanmar 27 HP diesel outboard- I thing it would take two pretty good sized guys to move it around. At that time, that was the smallest one made too.

AFAIK, the Yanmar outboard diesels (27 and 36 HP models) were the only ones made, but I don't believe they're available for sale in the USA.

Actually, there are several manufacturers.
The Yanmar ones are available in the US, with 27hp being the smallest.

Zongshen makes sizes 6-18hp

Tohatsu made one in the 80's, and are supposedly bringing a newer version of it back. They have one that they keep using in adds and discussions at boatshows...But it is only ever a poster and not the actual unit, yet.

Rotary Power International (RPI) have one coming online later next year that is being badged and marketed by Evinrude. It is indeed a ROTARY engine and expects to be much lighter weight for the power output then standard units.

There is this lot...
http://www.hardydiesel.com/mrn/diesel_outboard.htm
I hope they think to put some sort of cowl on it... and the pic is just the naked engine (it is the internet after all)

Carniti make a 25hp diesel outboard. If this is the same design as they were doing 20 years ago then  they are supposed to be unkillable.

Ruggerini are still in business, 10-18hp
http://www.engine-cemberci.com/engine/RUGGERINI/5.pdf

I think the diesel rotary is the truly scary option!!!!!


Alex.

Umm.. .that Hardy Diesel is ludicrious.  250 lbs. and only 4 hp.  I can use my 3.5 HP Tohatsu, and put 25 gallons of gasoline on my boat and still come in under that weight. 

Hardy diesel @ 250lbs....ya'd need one heck of an OB bracket !! It has a really small fuel tank too. I'm likin Arift's Tohatsu idea more and more

That kerosene link is a great one.

sadly, the price of fuel affects how much or how often I can trailer my sailboat. Since last October, I haven't sailed at all, matter of fact, I thinking in building a little sailing dinghy so I can use a small lake closer to my house.

Gus

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 20, 2008, 07:30:34 PM
Unfortunately, in the USA at least, the bigger is better mentality seems to be pervasive across all parts of society.  If you don't own a 40'+ boat, a 5000+ sq. ft. house, or a Hummer H2, you're doing something wrong.

Oh, c'mon... does anybody really like Hummer H2's or H3's?  All they are is a funky body on a Tahoe frame.... We call 'em 'posers' here.

Now the H1, that is a machine!!

Quote from: Gus on February 24, 2008, 06:06:17 PM
sadly, the price of fuel affects how much or how often I can trailer my sailboat. Since last October, I haven't sailed at all, matter of fact, I thinking in building a little sailing dinghy so I can use a small lake closer to my house.

Gus

  Geeze Gus, now I feel bad for the thought.....  Here is some grog to make it up to you.  ;)

Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 25, 2008, 02:40:13 PM
I've used it for a quick "brake" when I ran out of gas on the ob and had to swap cans quickly

LOL- See the valve in the first picture? That is connected to the two tanks you see in the second, with a fuel line from each tank, then one that runs to the engine. When we need to switch tanks, we simply switch the valve. IF we are getting into an area where we KNOW we'll need to maneuver and we aren't sure how much fuel is on the current tank, we just switch, then switch back when the need passes.

I don't EVER switch hoses on the tanks

I think I'll be making a similar modification on my boat. :)

When I was pulling my sailboat out of the lake for the season last year I had two power boaters come up and ask If i new anyone that wanted a boat.   I asked how much money thye used in gas last year.  Both were over 1K.  I laughed and told them I used less then three gallons for the whole season, and I sailed every weekend. 

I really think we will see more people go the sailboat way.  As far are the hummers.  I hope they completely go away.   I hate the fact I need a huge truck to pull my boat, but I offset that by riding my bicycle when I am not pulling my boat. 

Ronc98-

I know what you mean.  I like telling the powerboaters at my marina that I spent $60 on fuel last season, and still have six gallons left over. :)  Some of them have spent $1500 on a single fuel dock trip. 

jeez 1,500 bucks on fuel? And here I am complaining that it takes me a tank to trailer to the coast and back :)

Yeah, I had to fill both tanks today,cost me almost 10 bucks ;)

Wow.  I've gone a whole season on less than three gallons of fuel (for the boat).  Used a fraction of a pint per outing if any at all.

I cannot imagine spending $1500 per fill up, and that's basically what, less than a week's worth of cruising?

Ouch.

My daughters sister-in-law keeps her boat on Lake Powell and goes down about every weekend during the summer.  She spends $400 a day for fuel.  Shes very well divorced....

My main expenditure for fuel is getting down to the swing bridge and through it...and back... that's probably where 99% of my fuel goes. :)  They won't let you sail through the swing bridge for some reason. 

Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 27, 2008, 12:12:55 AM
Wow.  I've gone a whole season on less than three gallons of fuel (for the boat).  Used a fraction of a pint per outing if any at all.

I cannot imagine spending $1500 per fill up, and that's basically what, less than a week's worth of cruising?

Ouch.

I burn much more fuel for the heater than the engine. The good news is it keeps the fuel supply turned over two or three times each year.

Shhh, If I do not want to talk to a powerboater with a cabin I tell him how much fuel I am using. Those 28+ foot boats sure eat up the gas.

I don't use a lot of gas in the boat neither, and I motor more than I should when I go out.

Gus

Well..., I agree on fuel usage. IIRC I used around 3-4 gal last year with the Gulf and about a gallon with the Clipper each year.  But, I managed to get out sailing only 8 times last year :'(  Slip rent was around $800 or so IIRC.  Factoring in that, it was a bit over $100 per boat ride.  Still less than stinkpot fuel usage on a day, I'd imagine, but unfortunatly too close.  Of course if I were coastal cruising and not restricted at the present time to the lake... :D

Given how many I've seen...it would appear that the H2 and H3 have some appeal to somebody... not me...and probably not so much with gas prices over $3.00 and expected to rise again soon.

Gas in the Bahamas is $ 5.25 per gal.

Quote from: Lynx on February 27, 2008, 04:20:03 PM
Gas in the Bahamas is $ 5.25 per gal.

yeah, most of the world pays much more than we do for gas, but we are spoiled with cheap gas, and the whole country depends on gas, so paying $3.50 a gallon, to fill my truck its 70 bucks, and I get 28 MPG driving slow, and by slow I mean not going over 60-65 MPH. Towing the boat I get much less, but again, I don't drive past 55 when towing.

Went ahead and merged the fuel cost posts from the small boat cruising tactics thread into this one.

A re-read brought to mind an issue I have been thinking about.  Before I left I posted;

QuoteMy plan for cruising is to carry a max fuel load of 34 gallons.  That would only be carried when making a crossing when fuel is a difficult to come by, safety item.

  I will swap my 6 gallon tank I currently use (stowed in the lazy-rat) for a 13 gallon tank that came with the boat.  I will carry 4, 5 gallon cans lashed to the shrouds and life lines amidships.  I looked at using the 6.5 gallon cans, to go to 40 gallons, but they are much tougher to lug around, and sit high enough to add windage above the cabin top.  (not to mention if you have a 6.5 gallon can, you are more likely to fill it it 6.5 gallons, and if you have to carry it far it gets HEAVY.

  Oh yea, and the one gallon can for the dingy motor.

Well, this is pretty much what I went with. 

  We had the 13gallon tank in the lazy rat, that was nice because while it was not often full, its capacity allowed us a margin of error to never let it run out.

  We also carried 4 cans lashed to the rail (using 'pin rail boards' clamped to the shrouds, this worked out well and I really don't feel the weight up high, or windage caused any appreciable issues).  We did elect to use 5 gallon cans and not the 6.5 gallon cans I had originally planed to carry. 

  FWIW, I found that 5 gallon (ventless) cans would almost always leak when the nozzle was stored in the can.  We did not like having the snag hazard of having the nozzles stowed outside the can so we just never filled the cans with more then 4 gallons.

  Our current gasoline capaicity is the 13 gallon tank aft, 16 gallons in cans (4 x 5 gallon cans filled to 4 gallons), plus the gallon for the outboard.

  We almost never had the entire ~30 gallons onboard, but carried it to the Bahamas (to avoid the hight $$$ Lynx mentioned earlier) as well as a couple of times we did not want to worry about running out (like the Okeechobee, although we did not use it all there). 

  While I did not have any real issues with the cans on the rail, I did not care for the arrangement. 

  Our Yamaha 6hp 2 stroke gets between .5 and 1 gallon per hour depending on conditions and throttle settings.  My max fuel load allows somewhere between a 150- 300 motoring range. I know Kurt does much better then this when forced to motor long distances, and Frank just posted;

QuoteVery nice... I like the new Tohatsu four-stroke outboards. I have the 3.5 HP for my dinghy... and I've been very happy with it.  I have a 20 HP Honda four-stroke for the big boat...and been very happy with that too. Smiley I'll have to see what I get for run time on it though... Gives me about 6 knots at 2/3-3/4 throttle, 7.5 WOT.

  I bet I could go to a 6hp 4 stroke Nissan/mercury/tomatsu and get some more range, but will stick with what I have for now. 

  So, to eliminate the cans and still carry enough fuel for a trip up the Tenn-Tom, or maybe to motor through the doldrums I am thinking about a ~ 15 gallon tank under the cockpit sole.  The inboard Ariels had a standard monel 14 gallon tank that would be perfect but that I have yet to find.  I have had some on the Ariel forum express concern as to the safety of gasoline below decks, but thousands of boats came standard like this for years without much trouble (keep in mind I would not have a sparking inboard down there).

  I am thinking a modern poly tank with a proper vent that could be pumped up into the aft tank, or into a gas can to mix for the dingy.

  Don't know how comfortable I am with a bladder (I love my water bladder, but think I like a hard tank below for gasoline). 

Thoughts?

s/v Faith-

Did you have sun covers made up for the jerry cans.  I understand that the plastic they're made out of generally degrades a fair bit with intense or extended UV exposure... so to prolong their life and prevent them from suddenly spilling gasoline on-deck, you might want to get sun covers made up for them.  The lighter the color, the better. :)

I'm also thinking about adding a larger fuel tank, under the cockpit.  On my boat, there is a space under the aft portion of the cockpit that has the tiller stock in it, and opens to the fuel/rudder locker in the very stern of the boat. It is basically sealed from the interior of the boat, or will be when I finish a bit of glass work this spring. I am thinking of buying a hard plastic tank for this space, and using it as the primary storage tank on the boat. 

Currently, I have one 3-gallon and one 6-gallon portable tank currently, and would keep those.  I also have a 2.5 gallon can that I use for the dinghy gas supply. I think the space under the cockpit floor would hold a 15 gallon tank fairly easily, but I have to find one that will fit. If I install this tank, I'd still add two five gallon fuel cans to store in the amas... giving me a total of 35 gallons or so.   

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 27, 2008, 07:56:19 PM
Did you have sun covers made up for the jerry cans.  I understand that the plastic they're made out of generally degrades a fair bit with intense or extended UV exposure... so to prolong their life and prevent them from suddenly spilling gasoline on-deck, you might want to get sun covers made up for them.  The lighter the color, the better. :)

Hmm.  Interesting thought.  I wonder, though, how expensive a cover would be compared to how expensive replacing the fuel cans every couple of years might be?

My current gerry can lives outside and is unprotected.  I'm not fond of this as I don't like the thought of super heating the gasoline on hot summer days; but nothing bad has happened, yet.  I do find that the gasket that comes with the nozzle doesn't seem to last long, though.  After only filling the tank two or three times it started to leak from the nozzle to can seal whenever transferring fuel.  I don't recall the old metal cans failing so quickly.  (the red plastic still looks brand new)

My worry would be the problems with spilling fuel all over the boat and into the ocean.   The cost is secondary IMHO.

Saw this photo on an eBay boat listing...  seems like a time bomb to me.  Gas tank down below,  right next to the battery and in the vicinity of a bunch of electrical items, I'd bet none of which are intrinsically safe...

I know the debate about gasoline on board will go on forever, but whatever one's feelings this boat certainly seems to cross the line!

(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/CaptSail/Misc/gastankbelow.jpg)

Only thing missing is the big stogey ashtray  ;D

Dave!   Don't light that thing in here, Man!   

:o)

Looks like you could mount a stove abo ve it. ::)

At least they don't have loose propane tanks rolling around in the bilge.

Good point but mine are not rolling around. The MacGregor M has some nice spots to secure them.

Yea Bill, looks kinda scary to me too.

  I have posted on the forum that I want to mount a fuel tank under my cockpit... of course I will use a proper tank and proper fittings.  I do plan to have it mounted right next to my battery boxes.... just as many tens of thousands of boats have been delivered from the factory.

  I will say that the only difference between this and most factory tanks are the location of the vent (and the fill).  This tank is probably more heavily constructed then many factory gas tanks...

  Some designs (like the Grampian 26, that comes to mind) had no real storage location for the fuel tank other then the cockpit locker... which would effectively be the same thing as this. 

  I bet that there are a huge number of small boats with portable fuel tanks stored in unventilated spaces.... many get away with it for years and years with no problems.... but the price for it's not working out sure is high.  :o

 

 

I've seen worse....

My all time favourite was hoping on board a disabled boat to render assistance. Going down belo and finding that the owner kept the used cleaning rags (still soaked in various chemicals) piled up around his fuel tank of 2 stroke (very like th eone pictured, but rusty and corroded from contact with the nasties). The reason for this was the tank had a little dam built around it to prevent spills into the main bilge, so it was obviously perfect for throwing other liquid chemical wastes into aslo, right?...You could smell fumes through the metal as it had turned into a fine spiderweb of rust for the top third. Fuel and other stuffhad overflowed the "dam" and was sloshing around in the bilge...and the owner was smoking as he showed me where he thought the problem was.

One of my proudest moments. I actually managed not to raise my voice.

"Sir, I think we will just get you to go back up top and steer, and we will just to you in. Also, we normally ask that forward hatches are closed for towing...but in this case I want as much air circulation as possible down here, so we will just risk it."
Didn't even bother telling him not to smoke, he was the type that it would not have registered with....

It is surprising the amount of  people that have no common since.

When I went to look and buy my (new to me) Starwind 22 and looking her over I found a 2 1/2 gal plastic gas can (FULL) sitting under the v berth. On one side the elect panel and on the other the porta potty. The can had the spout on it with the plug in. No cap just the plug. With the heat in Texas, the way gas expands, and sitting next to the elec panel all could go BOOM.

I have long since removed the gas can.  Sure don't want to loose her before I even get her in the water.  Sure small boat are limited on storage but I will surely find a good spot outside for more fuel.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 08, 2008, 07:39:35 PM
I will say that the only difference between this and most factory tanks are the location of the vent (and the fill). 

You've certainly pointed out the biggest issue in my eyes - not the fact that there's a gas tank below, but that it's a portable tank that is not vented to the outside and is not grounded.  A proper fixed tank installation can certainly be done safely, even if it is gasoline.

<I was about to point out that it also didn't have a proper fill, but then realized that if a boat had a portable tank below like this, hopefully the owner would take the tank up topside to fill it rather than bring the gas nozzle down into the cabin...  I'd hope even the most clueless would figure that one out!>   ;)

OK, lets not all get our knickers in a knot here. 

That boat is in a warehouse or shop for winter storage or/and a rebuild.  The tank may well have been drained before the boat was laid up.  There's no indication that the owner sailed the boat that way, he just might not want the tank out in the cockpit when not in actual use.

Quote from: Ol' Coot on March 13, 2008, 12:53:05 PM

OK, lets not all get our knickers in a knot here. 

That boat is in a warehouse or shop for winter storage or/and a rebuild.  The tank may well have been drained before the boat was laid up.  There's no indication that the owner sailed the boat that way, he just might not want the tank out in the cockpit when not in actual use.

Good point....

But, I'm just wondering if that fiddle in front of the tanks suggests that that *IS* its regular home.

FYI, there are dangers to using mineral spirits in lamps.  Read this thread to be educated:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?142224-Lamp-Oil-v-Kerosene

I guess I've just been lucky during the last 40 years, burning mineral spirits in my kero stoves and lanterns. Also in the wick type heaters I have - an Aladdin Blue Flame (  from the mid 60's, but a much older design than that) and a much more modern KeroSun.

I think I'll  keep using it.

One point- in much of that thread they used the term "Mineral oil" NOT the same stuff at all. 100% Mineral Spirits is what I use. Why you ask? Because modern kerosenes are simply not as good as kerosene was when I was a kid and my grandmother burned in her stove in the 40's. It smokes, leaves a residue and is costly. Used to be kerosene was clear- now it's a urine yellow. Less people use it for light and cooking, so the refining isn't as good- costs more to refine it clear.

I won't use it.

YMMV, naturally.  If I'd been using it for 40 years, there wouldn't be much to stop me either.  I can imagine that different lamp or heater designs would have an strong influence on whether the "run away" condition was possible/likely.  I haven't decided what fuel(s) to settle on for the long term myself, but those later posts in the wb forum did seem to be some of the most comprehensive info I've seen anyone post so far.  Seems there's a lot of confusion with terminology out there and it must be very interesting traveling to 3rd world countries and trying to know exactly what you're buying and if it's anything you actually want to use aboard.

I had an interesting problem using Weems & Plath (expensive!) lamp oil.

Over Christmas I was on a delivery and lit the small Weems & Plath cabin light... the one with the 1/2" wick.  I trimmed the wick, and lit it then turned it all the way down to put the globe on.

When I placed the globe on the lamp it immediately shattered.  I had the flame as small as possible, and the globe had no noticeable cracks...

Thoughts?

Quote from: s/v Faith on January 17, 2012, 12:56:26 PM
I had an interesting problem using Weems & Plath (expensive!) lamp oil.

Over Christmas I was on a delivery and lit the small Weems & Plath cabin light... the one with the 1/2" wick.  I trimmed the wick, and lit it then turned it all the way down to put the globe on.

When I placed the globe on the lamp it immediately shattered.  I had the flame as small as possible, and the globe had no noticeable cracks...

Thoughts?

You weren't doing your Ella Fitzgerald imitation again, were you?

;D

Seriously, the only thing I can think of was that there MAY have been a small chip or scratch somewhere that was not noticed.  It does not take much at all to break the 'surface tension' of the glass.  That's why in chem labs, if we noticed ANY defect on our glassware, it was tossed.  (Okay, occasionally, I could fix it with some glass work, fire polishing and the like...).

Guessing, but I doubt it was the heat from the flame.  More likely some mechanical stress (squeezed, vibrated, etc) overpowered a weak spot.