What is the preferred jib configuration for you distance travelers,
Rolling Furler jib or hank-on?
From the little use I have had with my rolling furler it is very nice as a singlehander. I did try it part way out one day, in a somewhat heavy wind. It did not go to well. However that might have been me, I was having some adjustment problems that day.
I read somewhere they are only supposed to be use all out or not at all. There is a certain type that can be used for reefing otherwisefull out /full in
inquiring mind want to know...
Hanks for me - good old reliable every time KISS system. :)
I have hank on sails but am considering roller furling/reefing.
It may be safer when single handing a small boat to not have to go to the foredeck, though I've only had a frightening experience once, and a jammed roller furler would have made it MUCH worse.
I kinda like "sailing" as compared to "driving" a boat too, so I haven't made a firm decision yet.
Zen
We got a "ProFurl" roller furling and we love it. Although, in the beginning we had to make some adustments and I urge you to hire a capable riggor to install and make adjustments. One mistake I made was the selection of the type of line I used. The first line I used stretched and soon I could not pull the jib in all the way. Changed line and all is fine. Also make sure you have at least two or three wraps of the sheets around the jib as I didn' t one time and a wind storm unfurlled my jib and ripped it from flapping. As I say once the bugs are worked out it makes sailing and reefing a lot easier.
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This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.
S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27 (Featured Boat Lats & Atts Oct. 05)
fore-sail plan......
Ok, I know this is nuts.... but it works (kinda)
I have a Pro-furl also. Like using it, but I no longer recommend it.
The 'permanently lubed' swivel that rides the headstay (and attaches the head to the jib halyard) is not well engineered and the bushing binds on the extrusion, and I have had to actually go aloft to douse the headsail...... Not cool.
Also, the tiny hex set screws that attach the extrusions together (they are like 6' or 8' and you stack them up to the lenght you need) The screws back out, and then the (already binding) swivel will not be lowered unless you go aloft (and swing out to the headstay) with the smallest possible hex wrench to tighten the screws......
Now, after that 'case study' in what is wrong with Pro-furl and by extension roller furling in general WHy do I keep it?
Simple.... It allows me to sail more, and gives me greater control. I can use my furler as a roller reefing unit, and my 155% is good down to about 120% (and functions down to about ~90% but not while sailing close). Most report less then satisfactory performance with a rolled headsail, but I have a new sail and an EXCELLENT sailmaker....
Now, I also have 2 other options.
The Headsail can be furled and I can fly my 90% (just less then working?) jib that has a wore luff. Here is how I do it.
I take the head to the spin halyard, and the tack goes to a second tack fitting on my stem head (just aft of the fitting for the forestay). I take up tension on the wire that is sewn in the luff of the sail until you can just about strum it like a guitar string. It does not keep ideal shape this way, as the luff has a but of bend to it, but I used it for 3 months like this after I blew out my original headsail and waited for the new one to be made. I even raced with this once..... I did not win but I finished the course and was able to add the points I needed for the series.
The third option..... ::) as yet untried. I came across a small (working) jib for a Catalina 22. I plan to try to attach the tack with a pendant to my second foredeck cleat and fly it as I did the working jib from the spin halyard. This (may) work like a twin headsail sloop rig, if it can draft behind the jib..... (might have to partially furl, but then there does not seem to be much of an advantage.... might look cool though. ;D
Thanks for the advice. I already have a Harkin, Harlkin ??? or something like that from the PO. I have no problem really with the operation, It did get stuck once, but I think that was me, because I did not know what I was doing :-[
Last time out it was better, one thing that made a difference was putting knots in the end of the sheets after running it through a cleat. Then it does not go flying wild whilst singlehanding, trying to steering with my leg, grab the sheet with one hand and hold on from falling overboard with the other...
However I have not really used it that much. When I tried it reefed it did not go to well, again that might have just me me :-\ perhaps too much of a reef :-[
I will give it a real go this spring... ;)
Quote from: Skipper Dave on December 28, 2005, 06:57:42 PM
Zen
We got a "ProFurl" roller furling and we love it. Although, in the beginning we had to make some adustments and I urge you to hire a capable riggor to install and make adjustments. One mistake I made was the selection of the type of line I used. The first line I used stretched and soon I could not pull the jib in all the way. Changed line and all is fine. Also make sure you have at least two or three wraps of the sheets around the jib as I didn' t one time and a wind storm unfurlled my jib and ripped it from flapping. As I say once the bugs are worked out it makes sailing and reefing a lot easier.
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This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.
S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27 (Featured Boat Lats & Atts Oct. 05)
I have a Furlex on my boat with a 150 - with all rollers a bit of upkeep is in order McLube sailkote is a wonderful thing It makes that roller werk SMOOOOTH (and the sailslides too) a litte bit of laying everything out makes popping open the genny super simple - and getting it dowsed as well.
For a trip I would keep my furler on but I would run an extra halyard that I could use as a forestay in an emergency. A bit of StaSet-X attached in that extra hole behind the roller and cranked on at the mast wench should get tight enuff to hank a sail to OR maybe have a 'forestay' made that could be added if needed - an extra halyard could still haul it up and you wouldnt have to worry about chafe
I should throw this into the discussion as well, since it works for me and also worked well for the Pardeys, but rarely gets seen in these discussions -
I have a slab reefing 110% jib. With the reef in, it goes down to about 90%. A good compromise for small boats, it allows one to have more flexibility on those days where the conditions vary.
I'd like to have a genny that was this way as well. A 150 that would reef to a 120 would be perfect - between the two reefing headsails, I'd have the functionality and range of use of 4 sails, while only needing to stow 2. To round out the selection, a 150%+ drifter made of 1.5 oz (or even .75 oz) cloth would be a boon, as well as a storm jib, and a trysail for the main (but I may just make the main with a deep 3rd reef, too). I think that would give me a quiver of sails to handle most anything, with stowability in mind.
Also, I will be adding a 2nd forestay (and twinning the backstay as well). Besides brute-strength reliability, there are many advantages to this setup - winging out headsails instead of a spinnaker = more sail area & less fuss downwind, hanking on a sail and switching the halyard over makes for faster hoists/less time on the foredeck in pitching seas, two masts supports in case one should break.
Time-tested old school reliability is what I'm after. I really do like roller furling on other peoples boats, but, as Brion Toss puts it "roller snarling" can get you in a jam sometimes. ;) (man, there go those puns again...) My plan will avoid that possibility.
Hank ons are not as easy as simply pulling a line, but nonetheless have a lot going for it that to my mind outweigh the benefits when I take into account what *I* have planned, which is a very specific, individual approach that I know is not "right" for most people.
If I was intending to stay stateside and/or coastal, I'd roller furl. :) It is damned nice and easy, that's for sure. :)
I would recommend against the third set of reef points on the main if your intention is to use it in storm conditions. I had it done on my old main and the very first time I used them shredded the top of the sail. The fabric is just not up to it. Just look at and feel a true storm trysail and you'll wonder how you ever thought it would work. As far as reefing jibs go...I've had them too (came with the boat), I could never get them to work very well when reefed. Seems the resulting "sausage" screws up the air flow so bad that it just isn't worth the trouble. It also becomes similiar to a baseball bat swinging up on the foredeck when you finally have to go forward to take it down. Besides, tying in the reef points isn't any easier than bringing it down and hoisting a different jib.
Just some thoughts.
I really prefer hanks--I had roller furling on a previous boat (Hood) and I found myself not paying enough attention to wx reports and conditions. I think it is better to change sails early rather than rely on roller furling. If one is not comfortable at the bow in rough weather than roller furling may be necessary. I do wear a harness tho, and on the boat I am working on now will have flat strapping from cockpit to bow. I prefer to have storm sails set, rather that reefed lighter sails in heavy weather.
Am -
I'm heading more and more towards building my own main this year. I plan on making it battenless with no roach. I agree with you that a trysail will work better in full-on storm conditions (ie heaving-to while the poo flys by), but I'll still do a set of 3rd reef points on the main (25%), and will build that upper part of the sail of heavier cloth than the lower portions. It'll give me another option, I'm thinking. Might do nothing more than serve as a riding sail, who knows. :)
AFA the reefing jib - in one of the Pardey books they show some pretty detailed descriptions/drawings of a zipper-joined reefing headsail they had made for their second boat, it's pretty spiffy, and takes away the objectionable "sausage" which, I'll admit, can pack a wallop if you aren't keeping an eye on it. :) I don't know if I'll go that far with it, it hasn't been that much of a problem for me yet. We'll see in time - I'll be using it a lot more this year offshore, stay tuned. :) Reefing the jib isn't much faster than hoisting another, but it keeps you from having to haul a sail forward and another back aft and getting that one stowed, that's what I see as another big advantage.
I have had both hank on and roller. I prefer the roller. Presently Im using a 150 genny on a Harkin roller. The foil has two slots so I can raise a smaller Jib behing the genny prior to droping it if I ever had to. I have had the boat out in 50Knts. Not done intentionaly but Im sure glad I could roll the sail up without going on deck. Not having to go forward is a big big pluss and when your by yourself with no auto pilot furling is a must. My main sail reefing system is a weird set up. Regular set of two feefing points. Reefing hook on the luff and two seperate lines for each reef point set. I guess you would call it slab type. Now here is the catch. You know how when you reef and all the mast cars pile up at the bottom above the goose neck of the boom. Mine has a line that is woven through the cars. This line keeps the cars attached to the sail but when let out or slacked off of a mast cleat it lets the sail and cars seperate. This results in not having a big stack of sail above the Boom at the mast. I have no idea what this system is called by it works really well. I guess I need to post some pic's when I can so you can see how it works.
Oh and I can put a sail up onto the furler foil faster than I can hank a sail on. Once started there is a bail and it self feeds the sail into the foil slot.
I am going to stay with my "old school rule" approach, keeping it simple.. "hank-ons" for me please.... My wife will vito my my purchasing power when the next sails are purchased... she wants two rollers for our twin forestays. I will look and consider all options, but we have a brand new 160% with hanks, a 120% with hanks, a 150% drifter with hanks, storm foresail with hanks,... a lot to consider.
The roller system would certainly be more accomadating and user freindly, especially considering our cutter rig, which neccissitates that somebody go out and walk the sail from side to side around the cutter rig when tacking, somewhat inconvenient at best, and not particularily safe either.
I still have another year or two before we decide, I'll just keep reading and learning and then decide.
Ron
On the CSY 44 I sailed we would furl the yankee to pass the staysail then let it fly again when we were on the new course - It was easier than crawling over all the PAX lounged out on the deck
'howzaboutarolla foila dats hanked on...I hoida dat happenin.
Hanks for us.
Tehani carries a working jib with a reef point installed that takes it down to just above storm sail size. I had the same setup on my 35 foot triamran and it worked very well. If you get a copy of Bingham's sailor's Sketchbook he shows a way to reef a headsail from the cockpit, once you have the new sheets attached of course. If you were in an iffy set of circumstances those new sheets could be rove ahead of time. Our WJ is 6.5 oz Contender Super Cruise by the way.
Our mainsail is cut battenless, with a slight hollow to the leech. Sets extremely well and can be hoisted and dropped off the wind if need be- no requirement to round up, which in some cases could be dangerous. It has three sets of reef points installed also. I keep two rove when sailing outside and reeve the third one if I think I'll be needing it. You can tell. It is also cut from Contender 6.5 oz Super Cruise cloth.
I also had battenless sails on my ketch rigged trimaran ( A 35 foot Cross)
Both of the sails can be seen in my gallery in the pic entitled "hard heeled on matagorda Bay"
Both sails were made from kits from Sailrite, by a good internet friend of mine from the TSBB- Eric Jon out in Vegas. He did a SUPERB job.
Personally I feel that if you are sailing offshore, battenless is the way to go.
Hello all,
I am new to this site and from what I see its great.
Hanks or furlers? My old boat a catalina 30, which I crused extensivly down an up the west coast, and once to hawaii, had a hank system. I thought I loved it,just like what has been said before KISS. Now my new boat, Nantuckett clipper 32 (am I too big for this board??) I have a roller furling. This thing is great. I could never go back. But I do have a clipper rig so all my storm sails hank on. When its blowing strong, with my full keel its tough to get the boat to tack. Just roll up the headsail make the turn and let out. Easy. I also have a roller furling main, This is the worst enginered product I have ever seen. Used it once and have yet again. I just furl the sail like every one else. So in my opinion. Furlers are grate. just make sure you get one that allows you to change sails without going alloft.
Cheers
D
Welcome aboard Kingfish!! No, your boat is absolutely not too big for this site. All are welcome and we all value any info or input that others bring. Glad to have you!
Not all roller furling systems allow you to reef the sail. Some are only furling systems, others can do both. I have one of each...the furling-only system is for my light-air screacher, the roller reefing system is for my genoa.
I prefer a good roller furling system, rather than hanked on headsails, as they can prevent going forward in bad conditions.
Another option for a headsail in heavy weather is an ATN Gale Sail, which goes up over a roller furled headsail. I've gone for this option as it is simpler and faster than trying to change headsails in bad conditions, and the Gale Sail is far more suited to heavy winds than my genoa.
For the main sail, I'd say that roller furling is probably not a wise option, as the systems are not as well proven as the headsail furling systems. In mast mainsail furling systems are particularly problematic, as any problems with it, or if you decide you want to drop the main sail after reefing it, you have to unfurl the entire sail. If the in-mast furling system fails, it may leave you with a mainsail up, and no way to lower it. If a boom-based mainsail furling system fails, you still have the option of using slab reefing...so you might as well skip the weight and expense of a boom-based furling system.
Jackstays and slab reefing are the way to go IMHO. On most boats, a reef on a properly setup mainsail slab reefing system can be done in less than a minute with two people, and three or four minutes single handing.
How about some more info on this "ATN Gale Sail" ?
Sounds interesting
The ATN Gale Sail is designed with a luff that is essentially a sleeve closed by traditional jib piston hanks, that goes around the furled jib and acts to spread the load of the storm sail. The sleeve also prevents the roller furled jib from unfurling.
Look at http://www.atninc.com/gale.html for more information on it. :D
The other option is setting up a solent stay, and using a traditional storm jib on it. This would have the benefit of moving the center of effort down and aft, but doesn't give the security of preventing the roller-furled jib from unfurling.
I read that. It sounded good. I have not figured out how to do the extra Halyard hookup ???
Little note on roller furling (everyone knows this, but I SAW it just yesterday).
We were coming in at Hilton Head Harbour Marina just ahead of a thunderstorm. Wind was hitting 25 kts as we entered the harbour, and the rain started just as we were tying into the slip. As the main part of the storm went by, winds were hitting 50+kts (I had trouble standing). One motorboater coming in got blown onto the shore :o , but got off due to a VERY powerful outboard.
There was a sail boat, about a 40 ft-er or so, that had furling, and it was coming unfurled in the storm. The sail was flogging pretty hard. I was trying to imagine that while "out."
As for going f'rd to hand the jib, I have successfully used a downhaul. Would still need to go up front to lash her down good, though.
Hanks vs. Roller will be one of those age-end debates that boils down to personal preference when weighing all the trade-offs. Personally, I prefer the (mechanical) simplicity of hanks and will trade that for having to go forward when needed.
That's one reason I'm going with a Gale Sail. It will prevent the roller furled headsail from unfurling. :D
From my point of view, cheap hanks are better then cheap roller furlers everytime.
But if you are willing to spend the money on a really good roller furler...then it is very good indeed!
We went to the size that was well and clearly one "up" from what was ranged for our boat in the brochures, and we spent six months breaking it in and really getting to know it by deliberately throwing the odd disaster-making mistake at it in order to figure out the best way to solve them when things were no longer in a controled environment.
We have a Furlex for our boat and love it (or at least will go back to loving it when the boat is back in the water).
The exact same model of boat as ours that we sail fairly often has a cheap and agricultural furler of a brand I cannot recall...you think it would be burnt into my brain after all the time I have spent swearing at it as it finds new and amusing ways to fail. The time that we ended up drifting through a tightly packed fleet of fishing boats, completely out of control with the headsail flying in front of us like a banner because the wind had eddied into a swirl and switch just as we were in the middle of a tack into a narrow channel we had not visited before, at the time of day when all you see is the setting sun glare on the water. Margaret was in the bow, trying to manually furl the sail as the drum had completely jammed up, I was trying to fire up the motor in order to get some control, and the several hundred people on the fishing boats were either laughing or shaking their heads ...urk. Lots of learning experiences that trip.
But yeah, back to topic, I have been there when four seperate roller furlers have crapped out on other people's boats, they were universally cheap and getting on in years (which also means they were older tech in terms of how they are engineered now). Buy a really good brand, that is definately suitable to the sailing you do rather then just your boat length is a good investment, buy new and get to know them and they are worth every penny. Start with a bad one and you will be wishing you had hank-ons.
Alex.
After 4000nm with hanks on my 45 footer... I still prefer them to roller furling. For half of the trip the engine failed. We sailed the boat on and off anchors and docks. Hanks were fine.
The big advantage to RF is coastal cruising. The sail rolls up out of the way and keeps the foredeck clear during anchoring and docking.
The big drawback to RF is that sails reef poorly. An RF jib, partially rolled gets more "round" as it rolls. The leach and foot are pulled toward each other. This makes the sail into a slow shape that induces more heeling.
Hanked on sails do have to be changed more often but allow for superior sail shape in heavy conditions.
Plan ahead?
The real place the superior shape of a hanked on sail is going to be the most important is during a storm, and trying to claw your way off a lee shore, or something similar. A Gale Sail gives most of the advantages of the hanked-on sails, yet for the rest of the time, you can have the convenience and utility of roller-furled headsails. The Gale Sail, and others like it, serve two major functions. The first is that they provide a very strong, flat, small, storm headsail. The second is that the act to remove the risk of the roller-furled headsail from unfurling during the storm. This gives you the good sailing qualities of hanked-on sails, and the convenience of roller-furled sails.
Adrift,
Do you sail with a ATN Gale Sail?
Yup
I'm just curious under what conditions, if any, you WOULD convert your boat to a roller furling headsail.
For example, is it cost? If someone gave you furling gear, would you install it?
Is it a reliability thing? If someone showed real-world favorable stats on cruising boats, would that change your mind?
Etc.
No, I'm not considering making the switch, but the issues came up in a conversation with a new sailor. It just got me curious what other hank-on advocates would say in this discussion.
For me it would be reliability. That said, I am considering trying a dual head stay system so I could have the best of both worlds.
Having recently rigged a RF on a customer boat, and sailed with it, if someone gave me one, I'd sell it.
Perfectly happy with our hank on jib. On our boat, in our area, the working jib is our workhorse headsail. We have flown our genoa I think twice over here, and both times were down wind in light air. The only time we have changed out the headsail other wise was sailing in Florida with the lighter air over there..
I had the WJ built with a reef point so we can reef it to storm jib size while it's hanked on.
We're happy with it.
And no- it's not a reliability thing- I know the roller furlers of today are pretty reliable. But then I've seen quite a few blown out and hanging in shreds after a squall. Cannot IMAGINE what it would be like to have one stick, or come un furled, in heavy air. Plus in heavier ir they can be really tough to furl- having to lead the furling line to a winch.
We'll keep our dead simple hank on.
I have had RF. The flicka,CP25 and now my lil electra are all similar to CJ's. I have often reefed the jib.Its simple and effective.It gives much better shape than a furled genny. On all the above I had a light weight 150 as well...which seldom to never got flown. At times I do admit to thinking RF. Your going out for a quick evening sail or you have to motorsail...would be too easy to just pull a line. But for cruising, I'll stick to hanks as well.
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 09, 2009, 09:43:07 AM
But then I've seen quite a few blown out and hanging in shreds after a squall. Cannot IMAGINE what it would be like to have one stick, or come un furled, in heavy air. Plus in heavier ir they can be really tough to furl- having to lead the furling line to a winch.
Agreed. I watched one come to pieces last year during the hurricane Hanna non-event. I was anchored in Back Creek and had a great view of the sail shredding on a boat on the hard at Jabins. It took about 15 minutes with winds only in the 40s (and yes I was madly trying to phone Jabins).
Sometimes they unfurl, and sometimes they just wrap more tightly exposing a bunch of sail near the clew.
Most furlers I'm familiar with have some mechanism for locking the drum. Some are a pin and some are a cleat or fixture to hold the furling line. Just have to read the manual.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Options.
My CD 25D came with a PO's roller furler. About 4 months into preparations to circumnavigate Vancouver Island the anti-wrap fitting on the forestay began to fail, probably due to age and would have been an easy fix if I'd had the time and experience to do so. It was just easier to remove it and go on the cruise with the older hank-ons.
The hank on sails give me sail options which are more suitable to the weather conditions than a compromise roller-furling genoa. My 100% is cut to the inside track and quite flat. The 110% & 130% have different cuts to power up in chop or foot off in lighter going, respectively.
Money is a distinct issue. I'd switch if given *two* roller furlers and sails - a larger genoa to set all the way forward (possibly on a stubby sprit) which would likely require rolling up in order to gybe or tack, and a smaller, high-clewed roller-furling sail set a bit aft of it that will have good shape if rolled down to about 90%. It would take me at least another 3 years of saving to pay for that, not including the rig alterations.
RF doesn't mean you can't change sails -- I switch between my 100 and 135 as needed. It's actually faster than with hanks as long as your pre-feeder is set up right. If you look at racers - who change a lot when the wind is up and down - most have foils on the forestay that look remarkably like a RF foil.
If cost was no object, I would have a RF with the drum below deck and a suite of sails.
Cruisers don't have to go slow.
#1 simplicity - and yes, to some extent reliability
#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between
#3 added windage- which also gives less good performance
# 4 cost- but if I would have on for free, I would sell it. And get a Ham rig for the money
# 5 looks - sorry, but I think it's plain ugly with that 'sausage' thing on the forestay
So, did I ever wish I had one? Yes. Once. I was buddysailing with a sister boat. After a couple of days with near gale force winds, we had light air, and I left the anchorage with the jib. After a short while I realized that it was too little canvas and while I changed to the 150% genua, the other boat almost disappeared at the horizon. I was single-handling and they had a RF.
This may have changed but I thought there were actually 2 diff. roller systems. One made for furling and the other for reefing and furling. The diff being the furler lighter in construction and not to be used for reefing.
Can some of the problems people have had was that they automatically thought if it furls then it must reef. I don't know.
Then I thought these systems were relative new as things go until I saw a boat in the Victoria B.C. maritime museum from the late 1800's with a head sail furler. Belonged to the man who started yacht club there.
Quote from: maxiSwede on April 10, 2009, 04:43:52 PM
#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between
Your other points have merit, but I don't follow this one. Could it be that many or most people with RF don't tune their rigs for conditions? Or are you assuming people with RF don't do sail changes?
In very light air I use my 135 and crank down on the backstay and vang to flatten the sails. As wind increases to 5 or 8 add depth to the sails. As it increases above 10 or 12 start flattening again.
If winds look like the will sustain above 15 or 20 I fly the 100.
If things get really ugly I roll up whatever is on the furler and fly the staysail.
All this keeps me moving among the faster monohulls in my area, but definitely not a race boat. I think a dirty hull has a bigger impact on my speed than the RF.
Practically, on Chesapeake Bay, I keep the 135 on the furler all summer and the 100 on most of the rest of the year.
Long way around to the question of why you think boats with RF headsails don't perform well in light and heavy air but only in medium winds.
I think it is a fair statement that most people with roller reefing DON'T change their sails. In fact, from talking to folks about RF, the primary benefit I hear is not having to change sails. (heck, I HAVE hank ons, and still only have one headsail. $$$)
The normal complaint of RF in heavy wind is bad sail shape. I don't know what the trouble is in light air.
However, it seems to me that much of the performance issue would me mitigated by the ease of being able to change sails for the conditions during the majority of time when sailing in the prime range of the RF sail. How many headsails does the typical small boat carry? If wind conditions suggested a change from a 110% genoa to 100% would most folks have the sails available for the minor change? Would most bother to change at all? What if the wind was changing every twenty minutes or so? With RF it (theoretically) becomes much easier to keep the boat balanced efficiently, and therefor performing at its' best. At least as long as you are working within the GOOD reefing range (I hear that headsails can generally be reefed 20% without losing much efficiency, and I suspect a fair bit further with increasing, but acceptable to most, sail shape loss). I could be wrong, though. I've never had roller reefing.
I would get a roller reefing system, probably with a 120% genoa, if I had the extra cash. I don't really have room to store extra sails, I single hand most of the time so sail changes become a pain, and I like a cleaner foredeck (makes anchoring easier). When big storms are forecast to hit the area I generally strip the sails off the boat right now. Why that would change if I had a RF system I'm not quite sure. Although, it seems that once the wind gets up it would be too late to strip the headsail off the foil.
Choices. Unless you are broke. Then you keep what ya got.
One HUGE difference in changing headsails with hanks vs a foil.
With hanks, when you drop the sail, it's still attached to the headstay. As you remove the hanks ( or at least as I do) the sail gets stuffed into a bag. At any rate, it's contained.
When you are removing a sail from a foil, there's nothing holding the luff as you remove it, and with the wire luff, it can be tough to control the sail until it's all out. I've seen more than one boat shrimping with a jib because it slid overboard while being lowered.
I fully understand that many many people have come to feel that a roller furler is the end all of head sails, but we just don't feel that way.
Oh, and we carry one extra jib- a big genoa for light air use. This doesn't count the assymetrical spinnaker of course
Furling sails are great for inland gunkholing, or for the geriatric set, of which I are one. But even having entered that unfortunate group, I hold as I always have. While they have a place for daysailing, for sailing school boats that just run in and out and almost never see serious weather (and even there I feel new sailors should be taught how to properly set and douse sails), for casual gunkholing. However, roller furling sails, main or headsail, have no business whatsoever offshore. This isn't a position held from not being familiar with furling gear. I've taught sailing on all sorts of craft for 29 years, including teaching how to set and furl self-furling sails, and at least 90% of the boats had furling gear. I had my own delivery company for ten years , also running for other companies, doing trans-ocean and US to Caribbean deliveries, Pacific, and Panama Canal. Many of those boats had various sorts of furling gear. But I can also say of the emergencies I've had offshore, 90% or more have involved furling gear. There is the school of thought that becomes ever more prevalent, that offshore boats should have more and more gadgets and trinkets. I hold that offshore is where KISS is most important. If you can't make it, rebuild it, repair it or replace it with what you have on board, it should never come aboard to begin with. You can continue on to the Med after the electrical power shorts out, as has happened, but you can't after your rig starts to unravel. There are furling failures that cause long hours on deck, invariably at night, on a tossing deck with seas breaking over the bow, and that becomes a safety issue. If needed, you can change a headsail in minutes, but repairing furling gear usually takes hours. There are many boats that have gotton in serious trouble precipitated by furling failure. There are boats that have shaken apart and sustained other rigging damage and had to be abandoned at sea because of furling failures, although I'll add that some of them were abandoned because the inexperienced crew were just freaked out by the violent motion and noise. I'll condense with this. We sailed into Faial in the spring of 1992, supposed to be one of the roughest North Atlantic springs on record. While in a chandlery, a couple sailors were talking about trying to replace furling equipment and sails. This was after we had sat in the harbor watching a parade of boats entering with countless sail and rigging damage caused by furling failures. I started into my thoughts on furling gear, and noticed the chandler smiling more and more as I went on. He motioned to me and said he'd like to show me something. When we got out behind the chandlery, there was a pile of furling gear laid out lengthwise, that probably was a dozen feet across the base of the triangle, and several feet high. He added that he agreed with me totally, but shrugged and added, "Of course furling equipment brings me a lot of business." I'll concede that furling gear has made advances over the years, and many people use it at sea with no serious ill effect. But to keep things simple, virtually trouble free, more inexpensive, minimizing maintenance, and wanting to get things to happen the way they should every time without failure, you can't beat hanked sails. If a downhaul is used and halyards lead direct with a minimum of turning blocks, sails will come down of their own weight 75% of the way, and dropped the rest of the way with the downhaul, and land totally on deck in an instant. Another sail can be preset with its own sheets and ready to hoist in a couple minutes. So, to answer the original question, I've never had furling gear on my own boat, never will, and if someone wanted to give me a complete set up worth thousands of dollars for free, would I take it? No.
Quote from: Auspicious on April 11, 2009, 08:03:50 AM
Quote from: maxiSwede on April 10, 2009, 04:43:52 PM
#2 performance - a RF headsail is not very good in light air, or heavy air, but quite OK in between
Your other points have merit, but I don't follow this one. Could it be that many or most people with RF don't tune their rigs for conditions? Or are you assuming people with RF don't do sail changes?
Hi Auspicious and congrats to an active way of sailing with a roller-furler headsail! ;D
re your question - Yes, I was assuming 'people with RF don't change sails. Why? simply because that's what I've seen. 95% of those I have encountered never change it, and it cannot be made for everything from 2-40 knots of wind so...thus my comment on performance. Most people I see never fly a spinnaker either....
All the best ;)
This is always a hot topic on any of the sailing forums that I monitor.
After reading this interesting thread, I'm gonna jump in, knowing that I'm in the minority of contributors to this discussion:
One of the first changes I made to my Cape Dory 25D was to install a Harken roller furling system. The previous owner had a collection of very old, often mismatched hank-on headsails, and he swore by the hank-on system. He also used his SeaRanger Loran-C unit and "never bothered with" GPS.
But--and here's the kicker--he always sailed with his wife, and she was very handy on the foredeck, he said. (It was her arthritis that eventually led them to give up sailing, he told me.) Well, I almost always sail alone, and I've found the roller furling unit to be a blessing.
Like Auspicious, I have two headsails, a 130-percent genoa with a rope luff pad that I sail with most of the time. On Buzzards Bay, that usually means furling it to about 110 percent once the summer southwesterlies pipe up in the afternoon. I've also got a working jib (Charlie, the P.O. called it his storm jib) that I use in the spring and fall, or if I know the conditions are going to be windy.
When required, I reef both headsails on the fly, even though I know that doing so compromises performance.
I've had the roller-furling system for four seasons now, and haven't had any problems with it to date. I check it over at the beginning of the season, and check it again before taking a cruise.
That said, I understand and respect what Thistlecap and MaxiSwede and others have said: I haven't taken this rig into much blue water, and I'm not sure that I'd want to, unless I had some kind of backup system.
One thing that's crossed my mind is to rig a second halyard, which would at least allow me to switch my headsails fairly quickly (though not if the boat were really tossing around), as the furler has two tracks. My boat is not set up for a spinnaker right now, and I'd certainly need a second halyard for that anyway.
All in all, I would say that I am very satisfied with my furling system, certainly for the kind of sailing that I've been doing for most of my life. If I ever join the Scoot List, maybe (just maybe) I'd rethink this.
--Joe
I like my hank-on jibs. I've sailed on boats with roller furlers and never seemed to be able to get the jib to look right. I've also seen roller jibs destroyed in high winds while my hank-ons were safely stored in side. It's just too easy for some to leave their jibs on the furler instead of removing them when leaving the boat. If I do any more off shore sailing, I plan on adding reef points to my working jib.
Quote from: maxiSwede on April 12, 2009, 03:34:41 PM
Yes, I was assuming 'people with RF don't change sails.
My observation matches yours. I offer that we are discussing the common behaviors of the people who buy RF as opposed to a shortcoming of the RF itself.
An additional problem is the shape of the sail when using the RF to reef. My 100 (no padding) keeps its shape pretty well down to about an 85 if I foot off about 10 degrees. I'm usually better off with the staysail than the reefed 100.
The 135 (with luff pad) only rolls down to about 120 before it poops out. Usually I leave the whole sail up and pinch a bit (*grin*).
I think I said earlier that if you are going to change sails anyway it is easier with most RF systems than hanks. Another benefit of smaller boats: dragging my 135 up from the sail locker by myself is a real chore. Of course it would be just as much of a chore with hanks. The sail control issue someone brought up (hanks stacking up at the bottom of the forestay is an excellent point.
sail fast, dave
S/V Auspicious
Hank on = KISS :D
RF = Murphy's Law >:(
Just a reminder - this thread was NOT intended to be a hank-on vs roller furling debate per se....there are enough of those.
I simply wanted to know that if you are a hank-on proponent (like me), what, if anything, would make you switch to RF. In other words, what are the underlying reasons you prefer the extra 'work' of hanks.
For my part, since I asked the question and did not answer it for myself, if given a furler, I would sell it and use the money for some other project/upgrade. My concerns are reliability; recognizing that the gear has improved over the last decade, my CONCERN about the reliability remains very real.
To me, it's also psychological - I reject the premise that RF is somehow intrinsically safer because it somehow makes sailing 'easier.' I know that not all RF advocates adopt this view, but some do. For what it's worth, these probably tend to be those either only TALK about sailing (not actually sailing) or those that mostly ONLY sail in 'ideal' conditions anyway.
Ever had a hank freeze up? Not so good, although not as bad as a RF jamming half-way furled.
I think there is an aesthetic component also. An Alberg 30 would look odd to me with a RF drum on the bottom of the forestay.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 13, 2009, 11:55:02 AM
I simply wanted to know that if you are a hank-on proponent (like me), what, if anything, would make you switch to RF. In other words, what are the underlying reasons you prefer the extra 'work' of hanks.
If/when age or health issues would prevent me from being able to crouch, sit or stand on my knees on foredeck - then I would definitely go for a RF. I would also add an inner forestay so I could fly a storm jib on it.
Quote from: Auspicious on April 13, 2009, 02:54:40 PM
Ever had a hank freeze up? Not so good, although not as bad as a RF jamming half-way furled.
Do you mean the hank freeze up so you cannot remove the sail from the stay?
No, I have not had that happen. If it did, at least the sail would be DOWN. Also, if I HAD to get it off, a knife (lashed hanks) or a bolt cutter (cut the clasp of the hank) or some such would make short work of it. Right? ;)
I have never had a hanked sail NOT come down when I wanted it down.
I had hanks freeze up on the 25 year old genoa when I wanted to take a winter break... It tipped me over to buying new sails (which I'd been saving for, but hadn't quite reached the top of my priority list.) If it had happened at sea? not a problem - you can almost always set a jib completely flying for off the wind work, and even get to windward as long it doesn't have to be pretty or fast. Dropping it might be messy, but as Capt Smollet points out it's doable.
The sail I built from a kit has knock-on hanks, which cannot freeze up like the piston hanks. They can fail *open*, but not closed. I wish I'd asked for those on the new sails, but I forgot to ask.
This is a fun topic...kinda like anchors...or anchoring .... ;D
I prefer the best of both worlds. Ask and 9 of 10 riggers will tell the Harken cruising furing systme is a top rated no nonsense and can be eaisly maintained while cruising. I sail a 24' Allegra cutter. We are in the final stages of a complete re-fit for blue water cruising and using the same setup we had on our Flicka. Our forstay will have a roller with a 135 plus a very light 150 that will be hankless with a wire luff. Our staysail has a single reef. Battenless main 3 reef points not great for going to weather but good for heaving. No trysail we will be circumnavigation in season and simply wont have a tri since we are on a budget. Number one luxery sail would be a tri. Ali
www.boatyardpirates.com
One of the things I think about when looking at gear is: what are current boats wearing when they arrive in far away places? And the reality is most of them have RF. In fact, I'd go on a limb and say that boats making it to the PNW are more uniformly sporting a RF than any other thing - they're not homogenous in rig, keel type, gas/diesel/outboard/none, tiller/wheel. But well into 90% have RF.
And the PNW is not an easy place to arrive at from far, far away.
I have a knee-jerk opposition to RF due to a couple bad experiences with it, but I have to admit both of those were very old hardware that might not have received proper maintenance in their lifetime. And I hate expensive gear that I cannot easily repair myself at anchor in a cove in the middle of nowhere. But I still have a diesel engine. So if I could, I'd probably have RF too.
But I don't.
Quote from: Frank on April 13, 2009, 07:41:43 PM
This is a fun topic...kinda like anchors...or anchoring .... ;D
And when we are done with this one I was going to bring up anchor rode (sizes, styles, lengths etc.) anD SHACKLES AND SWIVELS ;D ;D ;D
8)
{clink clink}... ;D
If someone gave me one of these: ProFurl Continuous Line NEC Furling System (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C118%7C77896%7C299746&id=188350) and a matching suit of sails that could use them (maybe a light 150, reefing 130, reefing 100, & asy/cruising spin) I would play with the system for a bit, and if it worked, maybe even like it. ;) I think that I'd go for at least a size bigger than what a racer would use AFA the structural elements, or at least large enough that I could tension the luff up very tight and wind up going through horrible conditions without fear of failure. Assuming that one could get the luff as tight as the forestay, sail shape should be good, and it sounds like the sails stow easily. IF they are what I think they are (not having personal experience with them), it seems like it might be a workable solution that offers some of the advantages of both systems; Quick sail changes, less weight aloft, basically a double headstay when a sail is hoisted, ease of roller furling, etc... Sounds great, doesn't it? ;D
But not a normal reefing furler, no thanks. I have other, better things to spend I could spend that money on. :) I know that lots of folks cruise with them and like them (to each their own, and more power to them, if they do), I fully understand and work on them, and they're just not for me. It's the KISS thing, the simple utilitarian beauty of hanks that appeals. A simple furling sail that can be dropped easily instantly and changed fast has a similar appeal. If it works. :)
Frozen hank pistons are a simple maintenance issue. They should work in and out with no effort. If they've accumulated salt or other corrosives and start to work slowly, they need to be lubricated and worked free. I lube at the beginning of the season, and before going offshore, and give them a good freshwater spraying on making landfall. I use a very light oil before layup, as too much oil may leak out onto the sail. I've used an assortment of lubes, and don't seem to favor any particular one. To free a slow piston, WD-40 or PB Blaster helps to free them, but WD-40 evaporates and leaves no residual lubricating. If a piston gets bent, there'd no help for it but to replace it. Laced hanks are preferred as they cause no chaff to the eyelets, sail, or boltrope.
An interesting thread.
My experiance of hanked on sails is not as extensive as others (at least not in serious cruising) - but I do well remember as a child being foredeck crew with hanked on sails, whilst the Captain remained at the helm ::) - not quite as bad as it sounds given rare to swap sails on passage, mainly raising and lowering at the start and end of a day passage or day sail.
But I recall being pleased when the Captain fitted RF ;D
My last boat had hanked on sails (21 Foot) and was used mainly singlehanded for the same sort of near home sailing. The main thing I found with the hank ons was that raising and lowering a foresail was a PITA singlehanded, both from the restricted room on the foredeck on a small boat, it being also somewhat bouncy (both from weather and wash from other vessels) and as I had no autopilot the boat had a tendency to change direction. inconveniantely - although no doubt on the latter point a degree of technique was probably sadly lacking ;D The main restriction was that I needed to get a fair bit of searoom from port before going on deck to raise the sails.
Notwithstanding the above I do like the concept of Hank on sails (especially a foresail that could be reefed - I only learnt about that recently :o), but I won't be removing the RF on my current boat any time soon ;D But, I am conscious that the RF on my boat is kinda old, so I am wary that it may have issues sooner or later - at present on the rig I seem to be working from the stern forward with the refurb (she's a 30' Ketch) - and as I want a new foresail in due course I am kicking around the idea that next year she will get a bowsprit 8) for both a large RF foresail (and so the Anchor can self stow), coupled with an inner forestay for a hanked on (and reefable) jib..........but time and pocket book will tell on that one - and at the moment I am not sure whether that would be the best of both worlds. or the worst :P.
Im curious how slab reefing works in a head sail? I have a picture in my mind from how I did my main, but does anyone have a rough diagram, or a link that I can look at to make sure im picturing it correctly?
Check CJ's posts.He has a good pic of his jib flying with reef points.
Yea i've seen his pics, but I don't recall seeing it rigged (if he even does keep it rigged) for reefing from the cockpit. I will double check however.
I do not keep it rigged for reefing from the cockpit. I don't have ANY sails rigged for that- reefing from the cockpit that is- I reef at the mast.
I only rig the ties when we're going to be offshore. If sailing inshore, there's usually ample time to rig if the weather is looking iffy, BEFORE it's needed. I DO keep the pennant attached a the reef tack.
Same reason I only keep the first reef rove through on the main sail when sailing around here- no need to have the chafe on inshore sails. Offshore is totally a different animal.
That said, if you will get a copy of Bruce Bingham's "Sailors Sketchbook" and look on page 22, you'll find a complete description of how to do it from the cockpit.
Smollett - you have my shipping address, for where to send that furler and set of sails, right?
;D :D ;D
Quote from: CapnK on April 17, 2009, 10:36:39 PM
Smollett - you have my shipping address, for where to send that furler and set of sails, right?
;D :D ;D
LOL, I'd hate to cause Katie to sit by the head from that furling gear...
Just having fun with this and suspect it may turn into an "anchor type" disscussion ;D
I have been a 'hank-on' guy by choice for all the typical reasons....simpler, easier, cheaper, less chance of malfunction/breakage etc.
I have always had a reef point in my jibs and found much better sail shape with the reef tucked in than a roller furled jib.
BUT
After cruising last winter on a boat where roller furling came standard...I gotta admit...I loved it!!
Maybe its age, maybe it's laziness....but it was a nice feature and I was glad to have it. Oooops...did I say that ;D
Like so many choices on a boat, there's lots of advantages to whatever you choose, but none of them come free. I think the best choice depends on what kind of sailing you want to do, and what kind of boat you have. I'll throw in free-flying as an option just to make the discussion more complicated :).
Hanks:
- Can drop sail on almost any point of sail
- If you have a bowsprit, may need to go out on it for sail changes (depends on rig)
- Can fly any sail
- Probably makes for easiest single-handed sail changes
Roller-furling:
- Usually furl sail going to or across the wind
- Can fly some sails without removing jib: Asym. spinnaker, ATN Gale Sail, storm jib on baby stay, etc.
- Can often furl or unfurl sail single-handed from cockpit
- Somewhat heavier sail because of UV cover and foam
- Extra weight/windage aloft, including more forward windage at anchor (presumably more yawing)
- Slightly poorer sail performance due to windage around foil and headstay sag from foil weight
- When a furler fails, getting down a sail can be difficult/dangerous
- Reefs well above deck (i.e. high center of effort, undesirable) and often with poor shape
Free-flying:
- Usually drop sail going broad reaching/running (to blanket jib with main)
- Most sails need either wire or high-tech line luff
- Sails with wire luffs need more stowage space
- With some setups can furl and then drop sail, making for convenient stowage and the ability to drop sail on other points of sail
- Often need headstay in addition to sail luff, and sail can sometimes get wrapped around/tangled with headstay
- Added difficulty with bigger sails or bigger winds
Here's some more threads on the subject:
http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/showthread.php?t=2228
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/hank-on-or-furling-head-sails-60888-2.html
Google... head sail furling vs hanked on hanks ... for even more opinions
I think it depends a lot on your boat and how you sail. For instance,
Do you usually have crew or single-hand?
What kind of rig?
What size boat/sails?
Do you have/want a light air sail inventory?
Do you turn on the motor whenever sailing gets "slow"?
Will you be making lots of passages, staying coastal, or somewhere in between?
Etc., etc....
Oh, and then there's the cost consideration :)
Personally on a Sailfar sized boat, I wouldn't bother to fit a Roller (IMO money spent better elsewhere) - but if one was already fitted I wouldn't remove it!
One of the many things that are not neccessary - but nonetheless are nice to have.
I just replace the furling unit on my boat and it seemed like a good idea at the time. then there were a few headaches fitting the new unit and the realization that for the sane money i could have had hanks on my old sail and 2 new sails ......
I think if i were to make that decision again i would have gone back to hanks.
Both Necessity and Tehani have hank on jibs. Two on aboard Tehani, one with reef points, and three on Necessity.
I like hanked on generally, but on my fairly recent trip from the Chesapeake around to Texas single hand, I sure was wishing I had a roller furler. Many times I could have used the jib for 30-40 minutes, had I been able to just "roll it out-roll it in". Many of those times I was in waters that were too restricted to let me leave the helm long enough to set a jib, so I just didn't.
Now,on Necessity I do have the jib halyard led aft, and a down haul rigged, which would have helped.
I think the roller furler really comes into it's own aboard larger boats where the head sails start to get heavy. Did a delivery on a Irwin 46, where it was all I could do to CARRY the jib when it was off the furler. So dragging another sail up front and setting it would have been a real workout for one person. On the 41'r delivery I was on last year, when we had to remove the jib from the furler for repairs, it was a BIG job. Fairly simple tied to a dock, but would have been a toughie at sea
One drawback to hank ons though, particularly on smaller CRUISING boats, is simply stowage*- where do you put them? I've seen some long distance sailors keeping jibs in bags on deck, because there was just plain no room below. But I'll live with that, and keep my hanks.
*Note - aboard a boat it's properly called "Stowage" not "Storage"
I agree.
You are more likely to actually roll out some jib when it is just a question of rolling it out...
Yes, hank on jibs have their advantages, but I will keep my roller and I prefer them on boats I deliver.
Especially when they are larger then sailfar size.
Quote from: s/v Faith on April 25, 2012, 10:58:16 PM
I
Especially when they are larger then sailfar size.
I think that's the big key
I do not want to get into the hanks VERSUS roller furling because I think that's not the right question. More on this in a bit.
Quote from: s/v Faith on April 25, 2012, 10:58:16 PM
You are more likely to actually roll out some jib when it is just a question of rolling it out...
And yet all those boats with roller furling still seem to never get used.
One fellow YELLED at me in the marina lounge one day (because I told a newbie, very casual sailor, who was also very "income challenged," that he would not need rf for his 23 foot Pearson) that "you HAVE to have roller furling!!"
I never saw his boat leave the marina except under power, and he's the same dude that said sailing was too much work so he just motors everywhere.
In the same conversation, another dude said "You HAVE to have RF...it's just SO MUCH EASIER!" I never saw his boats leave the marina either until he got kicked out.
Nearly every day, I see sail boats with roller furling gear motoring, often in good sailing breeze. No headsail rolled out.
So, the question to my mind is not the gear but the sailor. I know sailors that raise sail at or just after leaving the dock...hanks or furler. They sail the boat. For them, RF might make sailing easier and more convenient.
My biggest problem with rf relates to this point. Whether it's rf on the headsail, halyards led aft, whiz-bang chart plotters or whatever "gear" you describe, the
dependency on said gear is a very real fundamental seamanship and safety issue.
I completely deny rf or other gear makes you safer because you 'never' have to leave the cockpit. I believe you WILL someday need to leave the cockpit, and when that day comes, you are at a disadvantage because somewhere in the recesses of your mind it's not something you want to do. Doing "scary" things takes training and practice. As we say around here, "use makes master."
For the able sailor who is not just willing but actually
comfortable on the foredeck in 10 foot (or bigger) seas who chooses to use rf...more power to him. His boat, his choice.
For the person who is installing (or seeks a boat already equipped with) such gear to get around the real tasks of sailing a boat, I'd say "Please stay home until you can operate comfortably without it. Until then, you are a threat to yourself and others." These are the same people, at least the ones I quoted above are, who call for help at the first sign of "discomfort" underway. His word, not mine.
This is the big problem with "must-have" lists of gear. They remove the responsibility from the skipper to a perception that 'safe operation' can be purchased. That is a very dangerous illusion to plant into the minds of new sailors.
Like an examination of any technology, my problem is not with the gear itself, but the spirit in which it's used. The gear cannot be a substitute for proper seamanship, though that is exactly what it has become.
For my part, I like that hanks or hand plotting are a little more work. To me, that's the spiritual gift. Making things too easy cheapens them. Then again, sometimes I think I was born out of time and the 17th century Quakers are more to my style.
I think when we get maddy back in the water from her refit I will be putting RF on her.
You sure dont *need* RF, but I did note many times in our last trip where I would have pulled the sail out for 30 or 40 mins
on a calm day when the wind breezed up....but because I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down.
Also when we ended up coming into anchor late, there were evenings when I was REALLY tempted to leave the sail on the fordeck
and collapse into a bunk. I think it would be nice to be able to roll the thing up and be done with it till the next day.
There were enough times I noted to myself a theoretical benefit, that I think it is worth while for us to put one on for the
coastal sailing we plan to do. :)
I for one however never once missed it when sailing from the marina. :D
Quote from: JWalker on April 26, 2012, 10:31:19 AM
....but because I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down.
Also when we ended up coming into anchor late, there were evenings when I was REALLY tempted to leave the sail on the fordeck
and collapse into a bunk. I think it would be nice to be able to roll the thing up and be done with it till the next day.
Keep it hanked on in a bag on the foredeck?
Generally speaking, if I am underway, even motoring, I prefer my sails ready to go:
Main: sail cover off, halyard rigged, minimal ties (that can be undone in seconds) unless the wind is really up.
Jib/Genoa: hanked on, halyard rigged, usually only one tie (tying sail and halyard to pulpit or a stanchion), sheets lead.
As a detail, I tie my headsail sail ties to the stanchion with long tails, then the tails get tied around the sail (and halyard) with a slip-reef knot. This can be undone with a single pull and I don't have the time lost dealing with the tie....it stays tied to the stanchion, where it is ready to be used when I drop the sail.
I learned the value of this lesson when I was mere seconds from hitting a bridge I could not clear when the engine failed. The only way to get steerage way, and avoid collision, was under sail. It took seconds to get the headsail up and drawing and the boat steerable: I pulled one or two ties, jumped the halyard, cleated it off and sheeted home.
"Luck favors the prepared."
Furling might have been quicker, but the difference would have been academic as in this case it was quick enough, and that bridge was CLOSE! :o
I'd rather rag out a sail having it sit unused in the sun and have it ready when needed than to have it stowed below when I need it. That said, there's no reason it cannot be bagged, hanked on and ready to raise in a mere moment.
Not trying to sound preachy, but hoisting a ready hanked-on sail does not take much longer nor much more work than unfurling a rolled sail. The work is the prep of hanking it on and leading the sheets, which is done essentially once per trip (not per day), at the dock, mooring or anchor.
The sails are the boat's primary propulsion, and they need to be ready to go. Too often, we warm up our engines and check fuel and other 'preps' before getting underway, but neglect the sails. In my case, I usually pay, even in a small way, for lack of preparations.
A partial answer to the jib on deck,, is a jib bag. Roll it up, kinda sorta, sheets still attached, hanks still on headstay, shove it in the bag, and zip it closed.
Also now doesn't have to go below.
For sails (esp. Head sails) left hanked on (in or out of a zippered bag,) an extra nice safety feature is a short line attached to the base of the stay with a clip on it that can reach the halyard shackle to keep the sail from hoisting itself in a blow. I have read of cases (Cabo San Lucas '82 comes to mind) of boats being lost when a jib raised itself from within a zippered bag and the boat was lost as a result. Rare case, but very easy to add an extra stop. I have one rigged on my staysail and it works wonderfully. The staysail is hanked and lives on deck (with a sail cover and a sail tie when put away.)
We kept the jib hanked on, in the bag on the deck most of the time unless it was high wind at anchor. The lines were not led, but in the bag.
I still didn't ultimately bother to go up and lead the lines, pull it up, drop it, re-secure it to the lifelines ect ect for the hope of 20 or 30 mins of wind, which often actually ended up being 10 mins or less.
We also kept the front of the mainsail cover off, and had four turny thingys under the boom keeping it on which would come off very quickly.
I also ultimately did not raise the mainsail on those same days because I didnt want to have to reflake the sail in 20 mins. I also plan for lazy jacks.
In an emergency we could have been under sail very quickly, but the reality is, we didnt get under sail in those finicky times. We sailed less. We motored more.
Call me lazy, but that is the reality of what went down, and in the future I believe that *FOR ME* a roller furler and lazy jacks will give me more time under sail. Which is kinda the point for me, so therefore I see it as a good investment *FOR ME*.
8)
Quote from: marujo_sortudo on April 26, 2012, 09:30:08 PM
For sails (esp. Head sails) left hanked on (in or out of a zippered bag,) an extra nice safety feature is a short line attached to the base of the stay with a clip on it that can reach the halyard shackle to keep the sail from hoisting itself in a blow. I have read of cases (Cabo San Lucas '82 comes to mind) of boats being lost when a jib raised itself from within a zippered bag and the boat was lost as a result. Rare case, but very easy to add an extra stop. I have one rigged on my staysail and it works wonderfully. The staysail is hanked and lives on deck (with a sail cover and a sail tie when put away.)
Which is precisely why I said...
"(tying sail
and halyard to pulpit or a stanchion)"
;) ;D
Maybe it was not clear what I was doing, but yes, I agree 100% that tying the halyard down is SOP to prevent it or the sail going "up" when that's not desired, on both main and headsail.
Actually, on this topic, I'm working on a little gizmo that will double as a "halyard security" device when the sail is not used and tack attachment for reefing. It's essentially a small bit of line with a shackle in the middle, a short leg and a longer leg, each with a loop spliced in the end.
With the main down, the line is passed through the head grommet until the shackle contacts the sail, the long leg passes under the gooseneck and the loop clips into the shackle. For reefing, the setup is similar, but the short leg is used.
Not sure how it will work out, but that's the plan.
Quote from: JWalker
Call me lazy,
Not at all. I hope my comments did not suggest that.
I was only responding to
"I would have had to get the bag out, unroll the sail, hank it on,
and then raise it...it just seemed like by the time I did all that the breeze would die back down. "
where it sounded like the sail bagged and stowed, and the sail was not 'ready.' Perhaps I misunderstood.
In your situation, if you want to sail more before getting your RF installed, you might consider (a) getting the sail out of the bag, lead the lines, etc, and (b) rig a jib downhaul. Having it ready to go gets it up quickly, having the downhaul precludes the use of ties (and the need to go forward to untie them) and gets it down quickly (again, without ties if the wind is very light as you describe).
I've used a jib downhaul to good effect; it really is just about as quick as most furling operations I've seen (but admittedly more work, since with the halyard, you do have to "lift" the sail rather than just unroll it).
Just thinking "out loud...."
Smollett,I just wanted to reinforce the point that a bag alone (esp. zippered) isn't sufficient. Like your idea about the dual purpose line. My staysail could use an easier reefing setup even though she's never been reefed in 20 some years (either by me or previous owners.). So far I've been in winds up in the 40's gusting into the 50's (knots, measured at deck level,) and it seems like a reef in the staysail could have been appropriate at that wind speed or a little higher. Might as well make it easy for when it's finally needed.
Mimi Rose came with a RF and I am pretty ambivalent about it. One bad squall and a sheet that tied itself to a lifeline in about 2 seconds while sailing on a lee shore my first year lowered my opinion of them, greatly. Super convenient and nice stowage, though. I toy with the idea of getting rid of it regularly. I find that lots of folks don't sail no matter how many devices they have to make it easier. Personally, I love playing with sails and will often be found hoisting, lowering, and trimming sails with a knotstick trailing behind to see if I can break the 1 knot barrier in a near calm. For me, that's just fun and one of the things I love about sailing. I find the days where you fight to sail just a few miles immensely satisfying. I really look forward to having a drifter and cruising spinnaker someday...
The last small boat I had with Hank on Sails was a 21 Footer - pretty as a peach ;D but barely sitting headroom, and that only near the companionway!
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll162/Jaytac_2008/Liza.jpg)
Corribee 21
Unsurpisingly storage onboard of 2 foresails was a challenge, with no sail locker my secret was to move them around - in port mostly lived down a 1/4 berth, when used both sails lived under the hatch in the forepeak (it was open plan - not big enuf for a forecabin!), until one (or both) were used. Also the unused sail made a good "bean bag" 8).
MO was to leave the sail of the day (either a jib or genoa) hanked on and tied to the rail, whether before leaving the dock or when anchored for lunch. For dropping (at end of the day or a sail change) it went "down the hole" (forehatch) to sort out later.
To be honest did not do too many sail changes! Me iz lazy, and whilst a sail change of hank ons is not a great problem (as a kid it was my job - probably nowadays under 10's at the bow, with no tether and no lifejacket is not considered good practice!) - doing so bouncing around on a very small foredeck is a PITA.....especially solo and with no autopilot (used to go around in circles a lot!).
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 26, 2012, 11:26:45 PM
Quote from: JWalker
Call me lazy,
Not at all. I hope my comments did not suggest that.
No no, I wasn't taking it that way, I was just saying that in a general direction to anyone who does not feel the way I do,
not specifically towards you Captn S.
I just feel like that for all the things I *could* do to make it so that I sail more without RF, *FOR ME*, I would just be trying to
imitate RF, so why not just get RF. ;)
I've hanked on for a long time, But in a daily use situation I believe I would benefit from RF.
Everything on a small sailboat takes four times as long to do, be it cooking, dishes, getting out of bed, getting rid of the trash, putting clothes on, going to the head, finding your lost whatever it is....
thats part of the allure of sailing. But at the same time if I can easily save myself 10 or 20 minutes a day in sail handling,
Thats more time I have for any of the other demanded activities that *must* be done before the day can be called over, such as making sure the anchor is set, checking the weather again, watching the sun set, trying to lighten some ballast by consuming some rum, putting the mainsail cover on, doing a shore excursion, washing the deck, picking up all the stuff that rearranged itself while under sail, taking a nap......
;D
When I go up to the boat, I have enjoyed the routine and time that it takes to get the boat ready to sail. It has become a time to relax and make the transition from the land world including driving and traffic, and to get reacquainted with being on the boat. A time to look at the scenery, notice the wind direction, notice what is going on around the anchorage...
I accept that sailing means more to do than motoring (especially the quickness and convenience of a p*werboat). I can understand that it might be different if I was pushing to make a certain distance each day, like when delivering a boat for work, to keep ahead of the cold when heading South for the winter. Sailing has rarely been that for me. Much of the enjoyment is not having too rigid a schedule or having to push too hard.
I've always liked the hanks as a piece of hardware (and a good snapshackle). They are so beautifully simple and functional, and unique to sailing. I've always enjoyed going up to the bow and the process of hanking on a sail or taking one out of the bag that it has been stored in overnight. Have to go up there to get the mooring lines ready to cast off or to weigh anchor anyway...
Also, in the past when I've have bought used headsails for my boats, to replace an old one or get one of a different size to fill out a basic suit of headsails--and it seems much easier to find hank-on sails than to try to match a furler [or pay to have it converted].
The Corinthian 19 that I got came with no sails, but did have a furler, the type that slips over the headstay. I removed it. Can't really see needing a furler for a 80 square foot jib or 120 SF Genoa. I still have a nice genoa from my former Typhoon, and although it is a bit small, it is hank-on and will work fine for my uses. Yet I am not throwing out the furler, since someone did go to the trouble of purchasing and installing it, and a future owner may see it as a desirable (or even *essential*) feature.
Nicely put Jim, and matches my feeling exactly.
13 years ago I bought an Alberg 30 with a ProFurl system. I was new to sailing and didn't have an opinion. That first season I became very tired of having to "fiddle" with the system. It was probably my lack of experience. The next year I left the Alberg 30 on the hard to rebuild and refit. Because I owned a dock, and I had a friend with an Alberg 35 (hanked on sails) who needed a place to dock his boat, I sailed an entire season with hanks. I found I had the same experience that Jim describes. As part of my refit of the Alberg 30, I sold the furling system and went to hanks. I sailed much of Lake Huron, Michigan and Superior the next five years and learned two very important lessons.
1. For me, the sense of simplicity of hanked on sailed was immenently more satisfying than the roller furler.
2. The Alberg 30 seemed to get out and be sailed much more frequently than the Alberg 35. It seems that the extra size and weight of everything on the 35 made it just that much harder to move it out of it's slip.
Excellent, Jim,
It reminds me of this quote from Carl Wilkens (made on a much more serious topic):
"When we make something with our hands, it changes the way we feel, which changes the way we think, which changes the way we act."
Aside:
My children participated in the One Million Bones (http://onemillionbones.squarespace.com/50000-bones/) project today, so this is on my mind for that reason, too.
Quote from: JWalker on April 27, 2012, 12:37:04 PM
I just feel like that for all the things I *could* do to make it so that I sail more without RF, *FOR ME*, I would just be trying to
imitate RF, so why not just get RF. ;)
I appreciate that you want RF for your boat, and believe me....in no way shape or form am I criticizing that decision. The following comments are offered merely as "academic" discussion - food for thought for anyone else reading the thread that might be considering this issue. Fair enough?
Your comment here about imitating RF is an interesting one to me. That is, I see keeping the sail hanked on and ready to hoist at 'all time' to be nearly as quick and almost as easy as unfurling off a roller, but
without the added gear, expense and complexity.Quote
I've hanked on for a long time, But in a daily use situation I believe I would benefit from RF.
... if I can easily save myself 10 or 20 minutes a day in sail handling,
I must confess to being a little confused by this point. If the sail is hanked on, sheets led and sail simply tied down, how does RF save 15-20 minutes each day?
On a cruise, at anchor, I get up, untie a single sail tie, jump the halyard and the sail is up. What is done with RF that's really faster than that?
I reiterate that on a cruise, I do not unhank the sail every night or stow it below/in a locker. It stays ready to hoist in seconds ... pretty much always. In the cruise situation you describe, sailing every day, RF would not save me much.
Where it does shine, however, is for daysails between longish times at the dock/anchor, where I typically do NOT keep the sail hanked. If we are going to be a week or more before sailing again (or even a few days, sometimes), I take the sail off. A better bag than what I have presently will change that, though.
If the boat were to be left again for an extended period unattended (I've left her at anchor completely unattended for up to 5 months), there's no way I'd leave the sail on, even in a bag.
Then again, I don't really like RF in this situation, either...I've seen too many sails unfurl on unattended boats in big winds over the years, such as the one in our marina that had the headsail destroyed in hurricane Irene last August, or one in Hilton Head in a mere afternoon thunderstorm, in just this scenario.
I've always used hank on sails. I've had several sailboats up to 31 feet, and have never even handled roller furling gear on a boat. I really don't mind putting on a hank on sail for day sails, but I usually keep the sail in a zippered bag on deck.
However; a couple years ago I bought a genoa and wire furler off an auction site for my Bristol 24. The price was less that just what the sail was worth. I intend to try it on the boat this spring, but I am leaving my forestay in place and mounting the furler a few inches inboard, so I can still use hank on sails on the forestay. I can quikly lower the furler and sail onto the deck if I don't want to use it. I could also pole out twin headsails if I want to.
Will I get hooked on the furler?
Quote from: okawbow on May 01, 2012, 04:37:48 PM
I've always used hank on sails. I've had several sailboats up to 31 feet, and have never even handled roller furling gear on a boat. I really don't mind putting on a hank on sail for day sails, but I usually keep the sail in a zippered bag on deck.
However; a couple years ago I bought a genoa and wire furler off an auction site for my Bristol 24. The price was less that just what the sail was worth. I intend to try it on the boat this spring, but I am leaving my forestay in place and mounting the furler a few inches inboard, so I can still use hank on sails on the forestay. I can quikly lower the furler and sail onto the deck if I don't want to use it. I could also pole out twin headsails if I want to.
Will I get hooked on the furler?
With that set-up would a running backstay be needed? Also would additional support for the furler system be needed below deck. Such as when an additional forstay is added inboard on a sloop for storm sails.
I really don`t know the answer but it sort of came into my mind while reading your reply.
Actually, I can still use the headstay fitting to mount the furler, by bolting a short plate to 2 of the holes in the fitting. The furler drum is only about 4" in diameter. The furling wire will be attached to the jib halyard with a swivel at the top of the wire. There should be just enough room for the sail to roll up inside the headstay. If it works, I'll try to get a picture.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on May 01, 2012, 11:45:42 AM
I must confess to being a little confused by this point. If the sail is hanked on, sheets led and sail simply tied down, how does RF save 15-20 minutes each day?
I don' know.
I never claimed that if the sail was hanked on, sheets led, and sail simply tied down that RF would save 15-20 mins a day.
I merely claimed that it would save me 15-20 mins a day. 8)
I've considered roller REEFING, and have come to the conclusion that it would be a net positive for me...I'm just too cheap to invest in it.
What I really like is not the speed of "raising" and "lowering" sail (rolling/unrolling). Rather, it is the ability to quickly tweak how much sail is out, shifting gears as necessary in changing wind. I don't carry a lot of headsails (my 100% working jib and a smaller "storm" jib with one reef point) and wouldn't know where to put them if I did. Keeping maybe a 120% genoa on a roller would give me a decent amount of adjustment, and I suspect generally improve my overall sailing efficiency, even considering the penalty of less than ideal sail shape when reefed.
As I mostly single hand, I would also be more likely to sail in tight places (as opposed to motor). I still do; but it can be tricky, as keeping the boat pointed in the right direction while dropping (or raising) sail in close quarters can be rather exciting (particularly to the watching owners of nearby expensive floating palaces).
But, I'm in a saving money mode, getting ready for a multi-year Big Adventure starting in April 2014. I'm unsure, yet, whether I'll be taking off in Godot or changing boats, so I am being cautious with where my money goes. I have a financial freedom target to hit, and everything else is secondary to that.
Quote from: Godot on May 03, 2012, 03:08:46 PM
What I really like is not the speed of "raising" and "lowering" sail (rolling/unrolling). Rather, it is the ability to quickly tweak how much sail is out, shifting gears as necessary in changing wind. I don't carry a lot of headsails (my 100% working jib and a smaller "storm" jib with one reef point) and wouldn't know where to put them if I did. Keeping maybe a 120% genoa on a roller would give me a decent amount of adjustment, and I suspect generally improve my overall sailing efficiency, even considering the penalty of less than ideal sail shape when reefed.
I have been meaning to add my two cents to this endless thread, pointing out that as a singlehander who often has little room to maneuver and little time to raise and lower headsails, I find roller furling/reefing indispensable.
Thanks, you said it for me!
--Joe
FWIW:
I have a 97% jib with one reef point. It is hanked on. Sheets are led aft through dedicated blocks/track on deck. Dedicated tack pendant.
Code 0 is kept in turtle bag tied to pulpit. Code 0 is free flying. Sheets are led aft through dedicated blocks/track on toerail further aft than jib blocks/track. Dedicated tack pendant.
I run both sets of sheets prior to leaving the dock, unless I know that the Code 0 won't be used - wind over 15-20 and steady.
If I need to change from jib to Code 0, jib gets dropped, tied off to pulpit and lifeline, halyard switched, pendant for Code 0 attached. Hoist, sheet in.
Takes about 4 minutes singlehanded.
Switching back is just as easy.
Personally, I have no need for roller furling.
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:01:39 AM
Personally, I have no need for roller furling.
<sigh>
I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it.
I know we are a generally KISS crowd. But the argument can be made either way regards the roller/hank on debate.
In any case, it's never about need. Sailing isn't about need. It's about what we like, what works, what makes us happy. For some it's a 50' boat with all the gee-gaws. For some it is the smallest and simplest of boats, navigating by guts and sailing by the seat of the pants. Most of us fall in between. The choices are all legitimate.
I go both ways on this debate. Seahorse has hanked sails and I have no plans to switch to a furling sytem. If she had came with a furling headsail I would not have changed it to hanked sails. Sometimes we over think these things.
As a side not I am really considering a conversion to a Junkrig in the next year or so.
Quote from: Godot on May 06, 2012, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:01:39 AM
Personally, I have no need for roller furling.
<sigh>
I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it.....
I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some people need to insert their own issues, so be it.....
Perhaps a more clear statement is that I don't feel the need to have a machine do for me what I can do myself.
I detailed my setup so that if anyone was interested, they could fully understand why I don't feel the need for roller furling.
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
I detailed my setup so that if anyone was interested, they could fully understand why I don't feel the need for roller furling.
That's how I read it.
As already said, I go both ways................. :o
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some
I didn't mean it to sound like an attack, although perhaps my post wasn't written well. As well I may have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.
Perhaps I'm just cranky. I've more or less shifted myself off of forums as my own choices and prejudices have cemented. I've also come to realize that there really is no best way, that we all make our own choices, and that there likely aren't two people, even on a forum like this where there is a predominant mindset, who completely concur. Daily I'm told (directly or indirectly) what the "best way" to do something is, which is often contrary to my personal experience and opinion. I am having too often to justify my decisions to others (I'm talking primarily professional here, although there is a fair amount of personal justification I'm called to do as well). Sometimes I guess I just expect it. I do try to avoid it; but I can occasionally get a bit persnickety.
Quote from: Godot on May 06, 2012, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:01:39 AM
Personally, I have no need for roller furling.
<sigh>
"I get the feeling of either defensiveness or superiority from those who choose the hank on method. And clear defensiveness from those who choose the roller furling. And I don't get it."
I definitely feel superior for using hank-on sails! And I'll continue to feel that way until I can afford a good roller furling system! ;D
;D ;D
Hey guys- ease up a bit. This thread started back in 2005!!! Been LOTS of pros and cons tossed around since then. Still boils down to personal choice. I prefer hanks, but in bringing Tehani back around the coast, several times I'd have loved a RF jib. So don't get all het up about it ;D ;D
It?s an interesting thread for me, as I have no experience with hank on sails. My boat came to me with a top of the line harken roller. Both my head sails, a 130 and 110 have a foam luff that makes the sail roll larger in the center then at the top and bottom, that helps keep sail shape. I find I can reduce sail about 30% and have a reasonable shape. To be really right I need to slide the sheet block ahead on it?s track after rolling it in. This of course can only be done on the windward side when it isn?t under load. So it usually doesn?t happen. that?s ok though, I still do ok. Most the time I sail single hand and the last of couple years I have been sailing the Sacramento, San Joaquin river delta in CA. Lots of 25K wind in the summer here. Like my system fine.
I'm going to chime in here since I have at least in part fueled this discussion to the point that it runs the risk of becoming "argument" and "hurting of feelings."
First of all, I believe this site distinguishes itself from all other sailing sites on the Internet by staying away from defensiveness and superior attitudes. I think we strive to have honest debate and discussion without feeling the need to walk on egg shells while at the same time respecting that each skipper is the Captain of his or her own boat.
Said another way...don't we all have too much of our own to do/worry about to spend time agonizing over what OTHER people use? Stating what I would like on my boat, and why, does not itself imply superiority...it's discussion.
Secondly, this site is premised on two key sailing niches: distance (or long term) cruising on SMALL boats, and keeping boats SIMPLE.
The issue of what gear to add to a small boat is certainly valid fodder for discussion within both of those umbrellas. That's my opinion.
Because the "conventional wisdom" often states that both big boats and 'well appointed' boats are "required" to comfortably cruise, it's easy to extend this site's niche to be being, at least for the sake of discussion, iconoclastic in challenging sailing / cruising conventional wisdom.
One of the most common conventional wisdoms we have challenged over the years is "what gear is REALLY needed?"
If someone suggests x piece of gear is "needed" to accomplish some sailing goal, the first question I ask myself is "Is it the GEAR that helps accomplish that goal, or does the gear provide something else."
In this particular case, I think it's the latter. It was stated that RF would make life 'easier' in some way on a small boat on a cruise that involves sailing every day. I challenge that outright and I and others have offered reasons why there is very little practical difference between RF and Hank-On in that scenario.
Others offered additional scenarios that they use to justify having or wanting RF. All's fine in the spirit of discussion.
If a person wants a piece of gear just because they want it, that's their choice and no skin off my nose. However, if someone says, "I need this because it will do x" and I disagree with THAT statement, sorry, but I'm going to speak up.
And make no mistake...it's not because I care whether he has RF or not or choses to outfit his boat differently than I choose to outfit mine. It's because I have seen folks walk the path time and time again where they buy into "needed" and the gadget does not live up to the expectation and disappointment results....
What's the ultimate goal here? Is it to see how much money we can spend on gear? Is it to have as much "technology" on our boats as possible? For some, the answers are "yes." I know folks like that...they ONLY want a boat to have something to brag about what they spend on it.
But, if the goal is to ENJOY SAILING or ENJOY CRUISING...to USE the boat to access a rich lifestyle, the siren call of "gear" is one fraught with spiritual danger.
To paraphrase a favorite line from a good movie (COOL RUNNINGS):
"If it's not good enough without RF, it will never be good enough with it."
I reject outright that the gear will make a difference in what pleasure one derives from sailing in the general case. I reject it's inclusion on ANY "must have" list. If you want it, fine. You want it. Your money, your boat, your choice. Bang On. I'll defend that til the sun goes down.
But there's a TON of data available in the "real world" that it is not necessary to sail or cruise enjoyably. This is a VERY different question...and one I think folks should be honest with themselves about.
Curmudgeonly Yours,
JR
I am going to kick in here with my 2 cents worth. I have roller furler on my boat and enjoy it very much, do I have to have it, no I do not, but on more than one occasion it has been a nice to have item. If I get an other boat if it has RF on it fine if not fine also , all in all it is a nice to have item and my Admiral really enjoys having it and she is the one I have to answer to.
I wanted to make an additional point that I think is important. Maybe it's not, but I think it is. :P
These discussion are not just for us, the participants. At any given time, the ratio of Guests to Logged In Users on sailfar is about 10:1 but may be 20:1 or even higher.
If 10 of us bat something like RF vs hanks around, there's 100 or more 'lurkers' reading the info.
I personally believe that sailfar provides a service for them as well. This is not just about what any of us as individuals choose to put on our boats, but the PROCESS of why we make these decisions with regard to various gear is important.
Sailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.
There's a bigger picture here than how we attach the headsail to our boats, and some of the people reading these words may be the dreamers, the school boy or girl that wonders 'what is over that horizon?" as Kurt outlined in the Guidelines thread.
Lists of "must haves" in any hobby, sport or lifestyle tend, in my observation, put people off - make things seem out of reach. Sailfar has always adopted the "Go Now with what you have" philosophy advocated by such successful cruisers as the Pardeys.
So, I offer that we remember that what we write here is as much for the casual, non-member reader as for ourselves. The important theme is the process by which we, as individuals, decide "need" vs "want" and how we address it.
So, it's true there's no wrong answer - what boat one chooses or what they put on it. A 50 foot whiz-banger fully outfitted with all the gadgets known to man is just as valid a cruiser as Stuart's Nano...and vice versa. The real issue I have, however, is that there are so few people sticking up for the Nano end of the spectrum and mindshare certainly favors the "gluttonous" side of the coin.
I see nothing wrong with pushing the alternative a little bit, at least in a "for your consideration" mode.
I was feeling ornery and frustrated. I didn't really mean to kick the hornets nest.
QuoteSailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.
So so true, my favorite Tshirt a Patagonia that just has a quote from Yvon Chouinard;
"The more you know, the less you need."
Quote from: Tim on May 07, 2012, 03:17:41 PM
QuoteSailfar is one of the FEW places on the Internet (or in print) that actively advocates doing "without," or as CapnK said it better than I ever could...we can live more by living with less.
So so true, my favorite Tshirt a Patagonia that just has a quote from Yvon Chouinard;
"The more you know, the less you need."
But in no way do I mean I think RF is over doing it, in fact, I am considering it for the Typhoon ;D
Quote from: Godot on May 07, 2012, 03:11:57 PM
I was feeling ornery and frustrated. I didn't really mean to kick the hornets nest.
Don't worry about it. Think of it as just a marina Sunday afternoon sitting on the dock type discussion :D
I've been sailing since 1957, actively since 73, never had RF, would have enjoyed it a few times, might put it on a different boat later on, might not.
Main thing is getting that Dacron in the wind, no matter HOW ;)
Quote from: Godot on May 07, 2012, 12:26:42 AM
Quote from: rorik on May 06, 2012, 02:37:59 PM
I didn't write that with the intention of appearing to need to be superior. But if that's how some
I didn't mean it to sound like an attack, although perhaps my post wasn't written well. As well I may have misinterpreted your post. Sorry.
Perhaps I'm just cranky. I've more or less shifted myself off of forums as my own choices and prejudices have cemented. I've also come to realize that there really is no best way, that we all make our own choices, and that there likely aren't two people, even on a forum like this where there is a predominant mindset, who completely concur. Daily I'm told (directly or indirectly) what the "best way" to do something is, which is often contrary to my personal experience and opinion. I am having too often to justify my decisions to others (I'm talking primarily professional here, although there is a fair amount of personal justification I'm called to do as well). Sometimes I guess I just expect it. I do try to avoid it; but I can occasionally get a bit persnickety.
You've pretty much summed up how I feel about many things. In fact, I have a friend who has officially declared me to be a "misanthropic libertarian", if that tells you anything.
I've quit contributing to several forums, and not just sailing, for the same reasons you've stated.
I do have a sort of terse writing style, but I try to keep to facts and not make declarations of "best this way".
I am proud of my choices because I spent a lot of time thinking through what is, or is not, going to work best for me and this boat.
I went to the sailmaker and told him I want to be able to sail on all points, regardless of wind speed, in the most simple reliable manner possible.
Mathilda's fat ass (28' & 11,000lbs) can move at 1-2 knots in 4-5 knots of breeze. My reefed jib is just a little bigger than a storm jib. My main only has two reefs, but they are deep reefs and with the second reef in, it is only a little bigger than the storm trisail which has it's own gate in the same track as the main.
My maintenance consists of chafe prevention, lubing slides and hanks, and UV protection.
"misanthropic libertarian" isn't too bad. I've been called "a hairy old fart" several times :D
Don't know if that's worse or not. I AM an admitted cynic and curmudgeon!!
;D
From Wiki:
Misanthropy is hatred of the human species or human nature. A misanthrope, or misanthropist is someone who holds such view or feeling. The word's origin is from Greek words μῖσος (misos, "hatred") and ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos, "man, human"). The condition is often confused with asociality.
Moli?re's character Alceste in Le Misanthrope (1666) states:
"My hate is general, I detest all men;
Some because they are wicked and do evil,
Others because they tolerate the wicked,
Refusing them the active vigorous scorn
Which vice should stimulate in virtuous minds."
"HANK...ON...JIB..."
"HANK...ON...JIB..."
"HANK...ON...JIB..."
;)
Today I finnaly found out how the roller furler was working >:( It's an earley modell, with a swirvel at the top and bottom only. Think I've seen this on ol' wooden boats?
And to roll it in, I'll have to pull the line from the inside, coz' the roller is underneath the foredeck :) But now it's working fine...
My take is that boats with a long, scary bowsprit make the best use of roller furling.
For example:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IFnRf6xe8q8/T3pSDatdTdI/AAAAAAAAAy4/FhrZ3fkNItM/s1600/march+bugs+and+boats+027.JPG)
Who wants to hank on a new sail out here? :o
This is a bit larger than your average "Sail-Far" boat, but the principle applies to smaller boats with a stick out front, such as the BCC, Cornish Crabber, Aquarius Pilot Cutter, W32, etc.
Anyway, I think the ideal setup would be to have a moderately large rolling genoa that would reduce somewhat acceptably when the wind began to pick up. In strong winds, the genoa would roll up and leave the staysail to keep the boat balanced until further reefing was required. In extremely light airs, you could set a loose footed cruising spinnaker or drifter without having to step out onto the bowsprit. Perhaps you would lose efficiency in a few situations, when the wind was too strong for the genoa, yet the lone staysail was too small. Still, for the sake of safety, simplicity, and with a little patience, you would reduce your load of foresails on the boat and keep from having to step out onto the "widowmaker" as much as possible.