I'm not really sure I'm ready to put this out for comment, but if not now, when? ;D
I have been kicking around the idea of raising the motor out of the water ever since I moved the motor from an outboard bracket on the transom 3 years ago. At first I thought of just wrestling the motor out of the well and stowing it in the lazarette. There are a lot of drawbacks to that idea - particularly trying to accomplish that in choppy weather.
I thought of installing a "motor board" (for want of a better word) on the front edge of the lazarette hatch. This is a simple idea, but still requires muscling the motor up manually. And that front edge of the hatch just isn't strong enough to support the weight of the motor.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/101406MotorBoard1.jpg)
My next idea was to build a frame with channels to hold the motor mount. The motor mount would slide in the channels and the frame would be tall enough for the motor to be raised out of the water (I need a lift of 20"). The existing location (fore-aft) of the motor mount relative to the front edge of the hatch doesn't allow the motor to be pulled straight up. The motor's cover extends too far forward and sits under the edge of the hatch. I considered moving the mount aft enough for the motor to clear the hatch - and ran into another problem: the lower unit/cavitation plate would extend too far aft to clear the well opening, even if I enlarge the opening as far as possible.
I was discussing this with my dock neighbor, who suggested cutting a notch in the forward edge of the hatch just enough to clear the motor's profile. We kicked this around and, at first, I was against this idea - maintaining the integrity of the one-design class, and all that. But since the boat isn't true to the original design anyway, and I do not race one-design, cutting the notch won't destroy the design integrity.
So the plan is to reinforce the deck forward of the hatch, cut a notch, rebuild the motor well (part of the plan all along), and build the frame/channels. My neighbor, who is a machinist by trade and could run a business out of his home shop, also suggest using a winch on top of the frame to raise and lower the motor. He offered to fabricate a winch and the channels for me. To support the top end of the frame and a winch we came up with the idea of a frame-work made of 1" stainless tubing and rail fittings. There will be two support frames spaced about 15" apart. I'm not sure how to better describe it, but this diagram may help. Remember, this is a representation I cobbled together to illustrate the idea. This side-view drawing is not to scale...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/MotorLift.jpg)
The stainless "rails" will be between 15" and 18" tall, while the the fore-aft measurement will be 24" or so(enough to span the hatch). The new motor mount will be made of HDPE and fit inside the channels (represented in blue) made of stainless steel. The orange circle represents the winch. (Don't know why the drawing does not show all the lines... I need to look into that! Hopefully, there is enough there to give you an idea of what I am planning.)
Any thoughts or comments?
Bob,
I am sure there are many to cite reasons to try to talk you out of it... but I think it is a clever approach to the problem.
I would make sure that the traveler base is still going to be strong enough, and I see quite a bit of beefing up of the structure to support the slide rails but it seems like it would be do-able.
I wonder if you turn the motor to one side or the other if the part of the powerhead that is under the edge of the hatch might be able to clear? Or maybe this would allow you to cut a smaller opening? Might even help with the cav plate clearance issue... ? Speaking of the cav plate. This will sound drastic, and maybe crazy but how much of it would you have to trim off to make it slide straight up? (standing by for the pundits to chime in on that one).
There is a guy on the Ariel site who does some amazing work named Ebb. He re-engineered his Ariel's well to fit an electric tilt 4 stroke Yamaha. (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=249) It is a long thread, but there is much to be learned there, might be worth a look for some ideas.
BobW-
Why re-invent the wheel? Take a look at this website (http://www.breezeindustries.com/marine.htm), and see if the product here might be able to do the job for you. It looks an awful lot like what you need. Since the base is spaced out a bit, it may give the outboard enough space to clear the existing hatch.
First of all, let me thank you two for not telling me I am out of my mind! Thank you!
Second, I want to thank both of you for giving me a couple of good ideas to think about.
Craig, it never occurred to me to modify the cavitation plate. I'm not sure what effect shortening that plate would have on performance, but I intend to find out. Thanks for the thought. As for turning the motor, that may help with the clearance of the motor head with the hatch, but I'm not sure the cavitation plate (even modified) would clear the opening of the well. I don't mind lengthening the opening, but I don't want to widen it if I can help it. I will look into how turning the motor prior to raising it might help. Thanks.
Dan, thank you very much for that link. I have not seen that site or that system before. I think that particular product may have too much of an off-set to be used as is, but it gives me some ideas. Transom mounted systems have infinite space (aft) to work with. Working within the confines of the lazarette presents definite limitations. Using tubing as rails could work for my application. Using a block and tackle was something I thought of before my friend suggested a winch. Perhaps we could incorporate both. Thanks.
Not knowing the space that you have, Will a standard long throw outboard raising and lowering bracket work if you widen the hatch?
Your system will work but why not mount the motor on the stern or the stern pulpit? It would appear to be the same amount of effort.
Bob- Glad to help. Do you have any photos of the top of the lazarette looking down?? Building something similar to what they make, with a shorter offset is probably not all that difficult given the fact that you have a machinist willing to help you.
If the rails were mounted at an slight angle to the motor, they might allow you to lift the motor out of the well without having to remove it or modify the lazarette opening. You could use a pin to lock the outboard motor mounting plate in place when in use, and allow the plate to swing forward and aft a slight bit to allow the cavitation plate to clear the well during the raising/lowering process.
Lynx-
It would make more sense to mount it in the lazarette well, because, a transom mounted motor is far more likely to cavitate or come up out of the water due to the boat's motion.
Further- mounting in the laz well gives you MUCH easier access to the controls, And makes the motor much less lucratic to those light fingered folks.
On Tehani I have the same setup- it takes us about 30 minutes and a wrench to get the motor out, another 20- 30 minutes to put it back. So we leave it in the water always. I just got the anti fouling for the aluminum lower unit- can't use copper based- it'll cause a reaction- electrolysis.
And besides that- my wife will not allow anything back there to mess up Tehani's pretty rear end ;D ;D
Yes, the fact that the motor isn't visible in the well makes it much less likely to be stolen. :D
BobW-
Is your outboard capable of getting remote controls for the throttle and transmission? I have a throttle/transmission lever for my outboard on my boat, and it makes handliing the boat under power much simpler. It would be relatively easy to mount the remote control set in the cockpit with the outboard in the well.
Lynx -
When I got the boat 4+ years ago the outboard was on a transom mounted tilt-up mount. It was awkward to operate the motor - step into the lazarette, lean over the transom to start it, same to reach the controls, and, because of the angle of the transom, the motor wouldn't tilt up. So I had to go through some contortions to use the motor, and I was dragging it through the water. I moved it to the motor well. There just isn't enough room there for a tilt-up mount to work.
Dan -
Here's an old pic of the lazarette and the well taken from above. The hatch opening measures about 31" x 20". The well measures about 12' x 12". It has since been cleaned up from what you see in the pic.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/LazaretteHatch.jpg)
Here are a couple of pics of the motor in the well, primarily to show exactly why I plan to rebuild the well. :-[
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/MotorwellForward-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/MotorwellPort.jpg)
I have never looked into remote controls for either motor (6 HP Evinrude, 8 HP Mecury Mariner). While cockpit controls sound like a good idea, could they be hooked up to accommodate raising and lowering the motor as I plan to do?
Craig -
The work Ebb has done is incredible! Lots of great ideas. After seeing what he did with his outboard well, I wonder why I was in the least nervous about cutting a notch (probably on the order of 3" x 10") in the edge of the hatch! Thanks for that link. I've bookmarked it for future reference.
BobW-
I think you should be able to connect the cockpit controls and still raise and lower the motor, since I can do that with mine. Mine is mounted on a bucket that is attached to the port side of the main hull and hinged to swing up and down, by using a four-part block and tackle. The motor also tilts up, to lift completely clear of the water.
I hope that helps. :D
Dan
BobW - I did not realize that it was that tight. Interesting problem.
Dan,
It looks like throttle/transmission controls are available for my outboard. I found this write up on an installation of Kicker Controls (http://users.sisqtel.net/jkriz/Outrage/Kicker/") on a fishing boat. Interesting the 8HP motor in the article looks just like my 6 HP. However, I have not been able to find the OMC part (or the part number for the controls listed at the end of the article) on the internet. I'll call the Johnson/Evinrude dealers to see if they've got it or can order it. That would be a nice touch.
Craig
I've been thinking about your comments concerning the traveler and generally beefing up the structure. I can reinforce the backside of cockpit bulkhead; and further reinforce the deck between the traveler and the hatch. I can also use 3/4" ply for the new well instead of the 1/2" I had been planning to use. I am also trying to find info re cavitation plates - and answers to the question: What if I shorten the plate?
Yes, the remote control setup of the throttle/transmission makes using the OB for an auxilliary much simpler... and much safer.
fwiw,
I have operated sailboats with outboards in the well, with, and without remote controlls, and I have operated outboards hung off of the transom without controlls.
I would not recommend remote controlls for a boat with an outboard in a well.
One of the many advantages of the well mounted outboard is the ability to 'vector' the thrust when you are docking, or aground. Even if your motor is a tight fit in the well, the couple degrees of steering you pick up makes a WORLD of difference.
My boat had remote controls before she was mine. I have some old pictures of the throttle mounted on the combing.. it is an affront.
I delivered a boat with a Merc 9.9 in a well (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=497.0) with remote controls. The control mounted on a bracket that clamped onto the combing board and could be removed and placed below when not in use. It was a good installation but the cable was always in the way (and the sharp bends may well have caused early failure). Trying to hold the tiller, control the throttle / shifter, and steer the motor at the same time was very difficult to manage. Add to that the complication of the set up and it was less then ideal.
The ability to keep one hand on the tiller, and one on the outboard is one great advantage of the outboard in a well (one other being that the motor is significantly less prone to leave the water in a pitching situation).
Where I like remote controlls, is for a transom hung motor. It is very difficult on some boats (especially not designed for a transom hung motor) to operate the shifter and throttle.
It can also be a hazard to the crew to lean over and down off of the transom to adjust the controls when a swing bracket is mounted to a transom.
I operated an Alberg 30 with an outboard hung off of a transom on a bracket, and found it was very difficult to manage with one person. You could adjust the motor, or steer the boat... but not both.
I am sure remote controlls work out well on a multi, and might even be a safety consideration on a boat not designed for a stern hung motor... but not for an outboard in a well IMHO.
While what you say might be true of most outboard motor wells, the well on BobW's boat seems to be awfully tight, and being in the locker means that the tiller is sticking close to straight up, which is a less than ideal position for steering the OB motor. I think he'd be better off with remote throttle/shifter controls and far more comfortable. It doesn't look like his outboard is going to go anywhere, given the tight mounting confines.
I consider myself very fortunate, since the designer of my boat made it so that the tiller can steer the outboard as well as the rudder when under power. The tiller has a collar around the base of it, and the collar has a hole in it. To steer the outboard under power, you put a pin through the hole, and into the tiller stock. Under sail, you remove the pin to steer just the rudder.
From what I've discussed with Bob- his well is about like mine- you can't turn the motor in mine except to starboard ( boat turning to port). The tiller on the motor blocks turning it to port ( boat turning to starboard), so you can only use the motor to aid in a turn to port. So we almost never adjust the angle of the motor, steering only by rudder.. Takes getting used to but it's pretty much like an inboard in that respect. Biggest difference is that the prop wash doesn't go over the rudder since the motor is behind the rudder on Tehani.
As to the controls, all I can say is Yamaha!! ;D My Yamaha has the shifter , throttle and cut out button all mounted on the motor's tiller handle- that sticks out the front of the well and is easily reachable from the tiller position, yet it's totally out of the way. I think there are other motors with the same set up. Most sensible thing the builders have done in years.
I don't use the motor to steer. It is a little awkward to steer with the tiller and shift gears, but I don't need to do that very much. Adjusting the speed isn't too bad once you get used to the throttle being vertical.
As awkward as it is to operate the motor in the well, it sure beats hanging over the transom to do all those things.
I'll put the remote controls on the list, but I'll focus on the motor lift project first.
Sounds like youre priorities are about right.. ;)
Some progress. I've been discussing the project with my machinist buddy, and taking lots of measurements. We're working on a system using stainless tubing for rails to lift the motor and incorporate it into what will be my stern rail (placed a bit forward of the transom). We're pretty close to ordering materials (he can get stainless tubing through work at a very good price). There's a guy at the marina with a box full of rail fittings at a pretty good price ($5 each).
So, tonight's question is this: Are rail fittings made with shoulders inside or will tubing slide through freely? Sure, I could wait until Saturday, but thought I'd ask anyway... ;D
Make sure the tubing is 316L or better. Most bimini or pulpit fittings don't have a shoulder and should slide along the tubing.
Bob - So what you are saying is that the rails the motor will slide up and down on will reach from the top of your pushpit, down to near the waterline?
Preposterous! It'll never work! Noone has *ever* done it that way!
What I mean is:
GO For it!
What a neat idea, I'll look forward to seeing how it comes out. Like Dan says, AFAIK there are no shoulders inside of the fittings, you should be able to slide them around at will.
Post pics. :D
You might want to chamfer the inner edges of the fittings so that they will slide more easily and not scar the tubing quite so much. You'll also probably have to shim the fittings, so that when you tighten down, they don't grab the tubing as they are designed to do. :)
Kurt -
Let's not get too excited about this project just yet. It looks great on paper, but I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm until we get it installed and it works! I am optimistic about the design but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I think I need to coin a word or phrase to better describe the rail that will support the top of the lift. The rail will serve as my stern rail, but it will be a couple - three feet forward of the transom. Pics will help - when we get that far.
Dan -
Thanks for the suggestions re stainless, camfering the fittingsand the comment (you, too, Kurt) about the fittings sliding freely over the rail tubing.
Glad to help Bob... ;)
Quote from: BobW on May 11, 2007, 09:22:22 PM
Kurt -
Let's not get too excited about this project just yet. It looks great on paper, but I'm trying to contain my enthusiasm until we get it installed and it works!
Bob - what I am most excited about is that *you* are the one working out the bugs, not me! ;) ;D
Besides that, it is a neat idea. I probably won't be able to use it, with a vane mounted on the stern. Wah... :)
Kurt,
I'll grant you having someone else work out the bugs is a better way to do things, but no one's volunteered to do the experimenting for me! I've been trying to figure out how to stop dragging the motor around ever since I moved the motor to the well 4 years ago. I've looked at a lot of solutions to the problem (Ebb's radical rebuilding of his lazarette and cockpit bulkhead; the Rhodes 22 system, the Breeze system Dan shared with us, etc.) without finding THE perfect solution. Probably because THE perfect solution for my boat doesn't exist - yet. But taking bits and pieces of virtually every system I've seen, I've come up with my solution.
Since I haven't gotten to the "some assembly required" stage (I'm still measuring, remeasuring, and double checking everything), I doen't have pics of the real thing to share. Best I can do is this representation.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/AfterDeckCaptions.jpg)
The "stern" rail is not at the stern. It will be over the forward edge of the laz hatch, and will be 5' long and around 24" high. I will also be able to run cockpit lifelines from it. The diagonal braces will strengthen the support/stern rail, but the exact placement/spacing will be determined when we test fit everything. The slide rails will be 12" - 15" apart, will tie into the support rail with T fittings, and extend into the laz hatch and be supported at the bottom on a platform being built into the new well construction. The representation doesn't show the rigging and bracket/platform on the rail above the slide rails for the lifting mechanism.
I picked up the fittings I need this afternoon, and my buddy will be ordering the stainless tubing on Monday. We ought to be at the measuring and cutting stage next weekend! :)
Looks like a good plan... I'm looking forward to see how it progresses and how it works out.
I've been doing a lot of the groundbreaking on developments for my boat, since the boat itself is pretty new, and most of the owners haven't done that much in the way of modifying the boat yet. BTW, got started on the bridgedeck today.. ;)
Quote from: BobW on May 12, 2007, 08:38:48 PM
But taking bits and pieces of virtually every system I've seen, I've come up with my solution.
Ah, yes, the tried and true practice of engineering. :)
Good luck with the project, Bob. I look forward to seeing how it turns out. Hopefully, I can then "borrow" some of it for one of MY projects....
Oooh - *now* I get it! Neat idea, Bob. You've gotten my wheels turning on this, it might be a solution for me, too...
I have been having mental debates about getting a smaller motor for the Big Trip, going more Pardy-ish, because of the weight issues with the 6hp 4stk I have. Something just large enough to not have to short tack/row up a strange, narrow port entrance.
Drawbacks, as I see it, to my current o/b: 55#'s IIRC, and out on the very end of the boat. Laid down in the locker, the head will be lower than recommended when on one tack. It'll be a pain to mount and unmount, for relatively little use.
There was a guy in the marina overnight, onboard a Herreshroff H-12*** that had a Honda 2hp 4stk. It was looking pretty good, ran quiet, seemed pretty lightweight...
***(Neat, good lookin' boat! Invited him here. He and his cousin were enroute, Savannah GA to Wrightsville, NC - 2 week trip, overnighting in motels along the way. He runs this website: http://www.classicboatrally.com . I told him he would meet some similar souls here... :) )
One nice thing about the Honda 2 HP... it is air cooled, so a bit simpler than most. One problem with it...no transmission... needs to be turned 180˚ to effectively get reverse gear.
Quote from: CapnK on May 13, 2007, 11:34:39 AM
..... Something just large enough to not have to short tack/row up a strange, narrow port entrance.
FWIW,
While the calculators say you need 4 hp to get an Ariel to hull speed, I have made 5 knots with my Johnson 3 hp in the well. You and I have the same engines, you might already have the motor you need. The internal tank would not give you much range, it would be easy enough to add a connection to a remote tank.
Just a thought.
I'm sorry, and I know my opinion is only one in the crowd, but I do not like that rail system. It is overdone and inelegant. By that I mean that it "costs" you more then it gains you. You will lose a good deal of proactical access to the aft deck and the rear locker. It will make your cockpit space seem pschologically smaller in the same way that a small lawn fence still defines a boundary and provides scale around a house.
I do not think it needs to go all the way across the boat unless you want to mount you traveller on the top of it (which you could do by using a top bar of rectangular RHS in 316 SS). lifting the traveller like that would actually expand cockpit space somewhat as the mainsheet would no longer be angled in so much of the time and someone could get in under it a bit better.
On the other hand, for the weight of engine you are dealing with, a simple tube structure that goes vertically, does a 90degree bend, runs across and then does another 90 and drops back to the deck will be more then sufficient, provided it is well made, and has decent bracing at deck level and a good backing plate below deck. You can also hang cockpit tables and things off it when not sailing. If you want to overengineer then go to 1.25inch tubing instead of 1inch...it will be plenty sturdy enough. It really is about how you attach it to the deck. Bigger base plates to spread the side loads, decent backing plate...Problem soled. This of it this way, that solution is what works for holding the padeye onto your deck, which is designed for a sudden crashing sideload of a fully grown man hitting the water and the boat still travelling at 8 knots or so. And it is at ONE point of contact and it does not tear out of the deck. Your outboard weighs how much less then you do, does not have a shock load of 2 tons of boat travelling at 8 knots etc etc etc. It will be strong enough.
Do not give up your back deck to what most people will think is a roll cage for taking your boat off-road rallying.
Cheers.
Alex.
Alex -
Thank you for taking the time to comment upon and critique my motor lift rail system. There is certainly no need to apologize for having an opinion and sharing it.
My original thought – and before Dan provided the link to the Eze-Slide lift system - was to install a pair of support rails spanning the lazarette hatch fore and aft to support slide tracks built using HDPE (I won't go into the details here, as the plan has evolved past that stage). Trying to fit the tube-slide concept into the motor, it never occurred to me that the slide could be self-supporting. I could "see" how the lower end could be mounted directly to a base in the lazarette, but I couldn't figure out how to support the top of the lift. What I came up with was a short rail just a bit wider/longer than the lift itself. But some of the issues you raised came into play and I decided to lengthen the rail to cross the after deck.
You are probably correct that the placement of the rail will psychologically "close" in the cockpit, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Prelude has a large cockpit, low freeboard, no stern rail, and no cockpit lifelines. There are times when sailing her I feel very exposed – psychologically and actually. Installing the rail at the foreward edge of the lazarette hatch provides the support for the lift, "closes" in the cockpit a bit, and provides terminal points for lifelines.
Practical access to the after deck and lazarette will be a bit more restricted than it is now, but not eliminated. As a practical matter the after deck is not used for anything now. In the 4 years I've owned the boat, the after deck has been little more than a place to set tools down when working on the cockpit. Yes, at times, I need to adjust the backstay, and possibly tend to the stern light, but the rail won't interfere with that access. I don't see installing this rail as giving up the after deck, and I may be missing something, but what do I need access to the aft deck for that the rail will significantly interfere with? The lazarette is not currently being used to store anything at all. I am rebuilding the motor well and re-decking the lazarette as part of this project. I intend to put the fuel tank and extra fuel in that space, but there is – and will be – adequate access for that purpose. It is not the traditional design or placement for a stern rail, but I'm not sure why this rail will be viewed as an off-road roll-cage any more than the paraphernalia many boats have installed.
I do welcome everyone's comments, and I will give serious consideration to the design changes you suggested.
Thanks.
I kinda liked Alex's idea of moving the traveller to the top of the rail ala Catalina 22. With the setup you have proposed, you could put an adjustable backstay on and route the line from the blocks to the cockpit. I wouldn't make 90's in the ends of the cross piece but rather bend the tubing. I just think it'd look cleaner, unless you went the traveler route. Also you could make a pushpit that wrapped onto the sides of the cockpit a bit, and incorporate the lift into that. Looks like you're having fun at it! ;D
I'd third alex's idea of moving the traveler... if you can anchor the railing down and make it strong enough, it would make an excellent spot for the traveler.
So, what's the advantage of moving the traveler to the rail?
G'day folks I have a similar problem. My outboard is in a well under the port side cockpit seat, so it is off centre. I'm using a tohatsu 9.8hp 2 stroke. Sadly I have to sail with the motor in the water and I reckon it knocks a half to one knot off my speed. I would love to mount it more centered and still in a well but have the ability to lift it straight up. Just another thing to work on. As long as I am turning to Starboard its okay but try turning to port from a standing start ie: no water flowing over the rudder and its great fun. I've found a couple of tricks so I just keep practising. I will watch with envy to see peoples solutions. I have seen a couple of setups for lifting the motor in my area and will try to get some happy snaps and post them, maybe they will be of help.
George
8) 8)
George - that's an interesting setup. What kind of boat is it? I've never seen an off-center o/b well, do you have any pictures handy?
I don't have any happy snaps at present but I will take a couple this weekend. My boat is a Triton 24 designed by John Alsop in the early 70s. They are closer to 25ft and were a popular design in there day. They have a fin keel with balanced spade rudder. I know of one which did a circumnavigation via Cape Horn' they are a solid boat but I don't think Alsop was thinking of sailing around the Horn. He was a Qantas Pilot at the time. I am getting used to the off centre mount but it would be much easier if it were centred.
George
It's been kind of a rough year, and boat projects have taken a back seat. But I have continued - albeit at a very slow pace - working on the motor lift.
Last weekend I installed a prototype lift. I call it a prototype because I am not pleased with the fit/finish, and because I used some temporary materials, which will be replaced once I get the details ironed out. The rails, for instance, used in the prototype are aluminum. This lets me test different lengths without chopping up a bunch of stainless. I also used plywood for the motor mount board, but plan to rebuild it using hardwood.
So, here it is...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/Installed4.jpg)
It will be shortened by about 6", and it does need support braces (the fittings for the braces are not in their correct position in the pic) But the most important thing is, it works!
Looks like a good start... you should have seen how rough the prototype for my bridge deck was... :)
Bridgedeck prototype:
(http://www.dankim.com/Telstar/07Projects2.jpg)
Final project:
(http://www.flauntintimates.com/files/bridgedeck2.jpg)