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I want to install a couple of heavy duty D-Rings in the cockpit but wanted some input on the best strategy.  At first I was thinking of mounting them on the sole, but then I got to thinking they might be less prone to leaking mounted on the sides.  Also on sides, they might cause fewer stubbed toes or discomfort when stepped upon, etc.

On the sole, the pull is generally going to be tension whereas mounting on the side the pull would be either tension (a fall toward the other side of the boat) or possibly a sheer (a fall toward the same side).

Which would be stronger, assuming both installations utilize backing plates?

These will see regular use since I will use them to tether my children while in the cockpit, but need to be strong enough for more adverse conditions.

Thanks.

My advice would be well up the bridgedeck wall of the cockpit. Make sure that it is easy to latch on a tether while still well and truly inside the cabin proper...avoids that "moment" in changing watches when you are untethered and likely not fully awake...

The best advice I can offer is to use a nice solid backing plate to the pad-eye. and decent sized bolt with nylon lock nuts on the other side.

Floor mounted pad eyes are a total pain int he butt, you can slip and trip over them, ropes are forever getting tangled in them as you tack, breaking a toe by having it get into the loop as you are midstepis a reall possibility and will not be a revelation to the hundreds that have been there before you. And as I mentioned, you need to get out of the cabin's safety, bend down and hook on. Not optimal.


Alex.

Use the sanction or mount them next to it. I perfer my harness tether to be tied to the mast with a 50' 1/2 line.

For our tethers I mounted a 1/4 inch stainless bow eye on the wall of the cabin, just outside the companionway. We can clip on before we come out of the companion, we can lie down on the sea berth still clipped on, so no NEED to unclip just to duck below.  We can also get to the mast with tether clipped to the same hard point.

It's mounted close enough to the drop board slides that you don't lean against it when sitting against the cabin.

Tying a tether to the mast isn't a bad idea, but I'm not happy with the 50 foot of line- If you go over, you're are gonna be bait, being trolled. I'd MUCH prefer a short tether that keeps you ON the boat. If you need to move, get a second one and clip on before unclipping the other.

First and foremost rule DON"T FALL OFF THE BOAT. Do whatever it takes, but operate under the assumption that if you fall overboard you're dead. Then take whatever steps needed to stay aboard.

I always believed that the ultimate bit of yacht safety equipment that NO ONE carries is some sort of gas-charged or otherwise pre-set hoist that will lift you back onto the deck and can be activated by someone clinging to the toerail on the outisde of the boat, being dragged along at 6 knots. So you battle your way up your tether, manage to cling to the boat and hit some activator, and this thing goes kerr-chunk and hoiks you back onto the deck, exhausted but alive and safely in the cockpit.

I have come up with about 4 different mud-maps for such a design...but they are all too heavy, too restrictive or too damned dangerous when left in the "cocked" position for a prolongued period.

I'll get there one day.


Alex.

Charlie, I had a short tether and as you mentioned, it was hard to stay cliped on the boat close enough not to fall overboard. Not to hyjack this thread or to say what has been said on others, I believe that if you are single handing or with a crew that cannot pull up, when (if) falling overboard you should be able to get back up by yourself. For me, that means getting to the back of the boat and up the stern ladder.  I cannot get up any other place.

Attaching yourself to the mast is an old way of doing it and I may change my mind latter. (to yours?) thanks.

Keeping Kids or pets on board is another issue and quite different.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 21, 2007, 11:47:25 PM
I want to install a couple of heavy duty D-Rings in the cockpit but wanted some input on the best strategy.  At first I was thinking of mounting them on the sole, but then I got to thinking they might be less prone to leaking mounted on the sides.  Also on sides, they might cause fewer stubbed toes or discomfort when stepped upon, etc.

On the sole, the pull is generally going to be tension whereas mounting on the side the pull would be either tension (a fall toward the other side of the boat) or possibly a sheer (a fall toward the same side).

Which would be stronger, assuming both installations utilize backing plates?

These will see regular use since I will use them to tether my children while in the cockpit, but need to be strong enough for more adverse conditions.

Thanks.

I would second mounting the padeyes on the face of the bridgedeck, fairly high up, one to port and one to starboard, and then using a long aluminum backing plate to connect the two inside the actual bridgedeck.  This would give it a lot of strength to resist moving under any load, yet keep them relatively out of the way, but easy to access. 

Also, you could run a short piece of heavy line or webbing between them to use as a handhold. Generally, you want the padeye installation to have a breaking load of somewhere near 6000 lbs, at least according to the specs I've seen.  The shock loading of a 12' fall against a tether hardpoint (assumes a 6' tether, and being on the windward side, falling to leeward), with a 200 lb. man can generate a significant fraction of that as a load...and most tethers are rated to about 6000 lbs for breaking strength. 

I would also recommend not using folding padeyes, which can be much tougher to hook into in bad conditions.

I've sometimes wondered what might happen falling overboard and the engine was running. With an outboard motor in the well, the prop sits pretty high.

A tether would have to be very short to prevent my feet from making contact with the prop.

If you're sailing solo, you couldn't get back aboard with the boat moving either. If the tether is too long, you couldn't even keep your head above water.

I guess I could make an extension for the outboard kill-switch lanyard and hook that on too when motoring. But then I couldn't really move about.

If I dont wear a tether, the boat motors away without me. If I do wear a tether, the boat motors along while turning me into hamburger.

Hard to figure where to put an attachment point for a tether that will prevent you from falling completely overboard, on either side, when the boat is only eight feet wide. You would be on a very short leash.

Quote from: Cmdr Pete on February 23, 2007, 09:51:07 AM

Hard to figure where to put an attachment point for a tether that will prevent you from falling completely overboard, on either side, when the boat is only eight feet wide. You would be on a very short leash.

How about an adjustable length tether using a rolling hitch?  You could easily double the effective "range" of the tether.  Not perfect either, but an option.

Probably the better option is a short set of tethers with multiple attachment points.  Slows you down moving around, but I'd think this is the "safest."  You are still vulnerable to the situation you describe when attached near the stern, though.

Actually I think the BEST setup is a relatively short tether so you can move around in the cockpit or go below, and a set of jack lines from bow to just forward of the cockpit to clip to when you go  forward. Then you don't have to worry about changing tethers mid trip. A 6 foot tether should do just fine for that.

On the serious offshore boats, jacklines are pretty much a standard thing.

I have a jackline running along each side of the center hull on my boat.  Even with a 6' tether, there isn't really any way to fall off the boat, given that the boat is 18' wide.  I think jacklines make more sense than having multiple attachment points to move forward on a boat.  Installing a set of jacklines is both simpler and easier, and the use of jacklines is simpler than multiple padeyes. 

The tether I generally use is double ended.  One end is 3', the other is 6'. 

QuoteThe tether I generally use is double ended.  One end is 3', the other is 6'.

  I am thinking that they pretty much all are double ended...  :P

;D

I am not sure I understand what you mean by this...  ???

Though certainly part of the foul weather plan, I did not want to keep jacklines rigged all the time; that's why I was thinking about several hard points for 'general use.'  Though as I think about it, it may not be a bad idea to keep them rigged, since night watches and the like would require movement on deck.

Do ya'll keep your jacklines rigged all the time?

If it is a 6 HP or so little outboard, I would not go worrying to much. If you wear any kind of footware, the prop will seize upa nd the engine stall out before doing your toes any harm. evena  bare foot into a small outboard prop will stall the motor before doing more then a moderate laceration.

70hp and up is where you get meat mincing.

It you are truly paranoid about it, consider getting one of those thrust vectoring rings for the prop. They now make them as an aftermarket add-on for most outboards and you gain a little bit of efficientcy too (and get rid of 70% of prop-walk).

Alex.

he means that there is a 6foot tether, that has a third hook set in at the three foot mark. Normall you have both end hooks clipped to your harness and the middle hook attached to the boat. If you find you need more scope, you unclip one of the hooks from the harness and clip it to the boat, then unclip the middle hook. You now have six feet of scope instead of three (And a metal hook that bangs into things, scratches varnish and whacks you on the knuckles swinging around in the breeze).

Does anybody have personal or first hand experience of falling overboard being tied to a boat?

I have read several stories but not talked to anybody that has. Of course the best thing is not to put yourself into that position where you might fall overboard, although, maybe not possible.

Actually, Alex, it is a tether that has a common end point and two legs... one 3' and one 6'—essentially a 9' tether with the attachment point for the harness at the 3' mark, and a clip on either end for the boat—rather than having a second hook in the middle of a 6' leg.  I find this is a lot more versatile than a single tether with two attachment points. 

I do keep the jacklines rigged all the time.  It is simpler to keep them rigged all the time, since I do use them at night, and when single-handing.

While I haven't had the unfortunate experience of being dragged behind a boat via a tether... I have seen it happen on one boat I was on.  Two problems I saw with it... if the boat is making way at all... the wave that builds up in front of you is more of a hazard than anything else.  Dave said it nearly drowned him until we got the boat stopped. Having some way to disengage the autopilot, and having the boat round up would be very important if you're single-handing.  Some boats can't be balanced properly and will not head up into the wind if the tiller is released, running before the wind instead... and that would be a serious problem...

Quote from: Lynx on February 24, 2007, 02:53:41 AM

the best thing is not to put yourself into that position where you might fall overboard, although, maybe not possible.

Umm, how can you "not put yourself into that position"?  You can be knocked or fall overboard pretty much at any time.  Some situations are certainly more risky than others, but about the only way to be COMPLETELY safe from a fall overboard is stay on shore.

And then you can fall in the shower.   ;)

"Not put yourself in that position."  I would guess that is not really possible when it happens, Like saying "Think BEFORE you fall." This is in a book on Roller Blading.

The better statement would be, not put yourself into a bad situation, like going to the bow or mast. I realize that this is not always possible. On my boat after going to any weather for 6 hrs the bow is really slippery with salt.

Another thing that I have asked but never gotton a response is - Has ahybody tried to get back on board with their tether on?

Just, Anchor, put on the tether, go to the bow, and get in the water SAFELY. Then try to get back on board. Hummmm.
I do not think that I could do that on my Mac 26M and to have a crew menber (if I had one) pull my 6'4" 265 pounds up. Not going to risk my life on that one. So my solution is to go to the stern and climb up the swim ladder, If I am able. If not,   well, fish bait.

Quote from: s/v Faith on February 23, 2007, 08:16:14 PM

QuoteThe tether I generally use is double ended.  One end is 3', the other is 6'.

  I am thinking that they pretty much all are double ended...  :P

;D

I am not sure I understand what you mean by this...  ???

I think one of these:-

(http://shop.lifejackets.co.uk/acatalog/lifeline2.jpg)


I owuld probably go for an elasticated version if I was ever "upgrading"

(http://shop.lifejackets.co.uk/acatalog/lifeline-elastic.jpg)

Quote from: Lynx on February 24, 2007, 11:45:27 PM

not put yourself into a bad situation, like going to the bow or mast. I realize that this is not always possible. On my boat after going to any weather for 6 hrs the bow is really slippery with salt.

Perhaps drifting a bit off topic, and I may well be in the minority here, but it is my plan to have the boat properly rigged to go to bow or mast in ANY conditions.  There are a number of reasons for this.

It's a sailboat FIRST.  That's what she is designed to do.  Since I choose not to have roller furling for my headsail, going forward may be a necessity.  Even with roller furling for the headsail, there may be cases (deployment of a drag on a bridle, repair/jury rig headstay, etc) where going forward = survival.  I don't want to approach going forward with the psychology of "this is something I really don't want to do."  It needs to be something I am comfortable and confident doing - which to me means doing it regularly.

I've read that by going forward regularly, your body 'learns' how to do it by instinct - where the handholds are, where to step, how to lean, etc.  The contrast is also possible, however: you DON'T just know how unless you do it, so if in some emergency you HAVE to go to the bow, you are at much higher risk.

This is part of the reason I want hard points forward.  I can use jacklines for moving around, but if there is 'extended' work to be done forward, I'd prefer to clip to a more secure, immovable anchor point.

Different Strokes and all that....

Quote from: Captain Smollett on February 25, 2007, 08:11:56 AM
I've read that by going forward regularly, your body 'learns' how to do it by instinct - where the handholds are, where to step, how to lean, etc.  The contrast is also possible, however: you DON'T just know how unless you do it, so if in some emergency you HAVE to go to the bow, you are at much higher risk.

Good point I had not thought of the foredeck work like this before. Maybe a reason why I have no problem with everything being led to the foot of the mast, apart from the fact that due to the windscreen it would anyway be a PITA to lead things back to the cockpit.

But I must confess that I would be loathe to ever give up my furling headsail, but this is out of an easier life as singlehanded and sheer laziness  ;D - when I was a kid it was normal for us children to do all the foredeck work including sail changes. Lifelines? Lifejackets? usually not. No one ever fell overboard though.

With hindsight probably some child protection issues going on here  ;D

Capn Smollett-

If that is the case, then I would highly suggest you get a dual tether setup, similar to the one I have... that way you can clip into the jackline, and then when you get up to the foredeck, you can clip the second leg into the hardpoint that you have specificially for working on the foredeck.  This way you can stay attached the whole way forward, and have the extra security of a double attachment when working the foredeck.

I was thinking about that or two separate tethers.  Two has some advantages, but probably not a lot.

I have two D-rings in the cockpit (port side bulkhead). Even with the long leg of the tether clipped in I can't go over the side. Jacklines run down both sides between dedicated heavily backed up eye-bolts. As near as I can tell (not tested) as long as I go over the lifelines my head won't go in.

1. Keep the boat in the water
2. Keep the water out of the boat
3. Keep in the boat

Quote from: Lynx on February 24, 2007, 11:45:27 PM


Another thing that I have asked but never gotton a response is - Has ahybody tried to get back on board with their tether on?

Just, Anchor, put on the tether, go to the bow, and get in the water SAFELY. Then try to get back on board. Hummmm.

In theory that is what rescue snatch blocks are for. You split the snatch block and thread it to the tether, then attach the snatchblock to a halyard.. Because the end of the tether is still attached to the padeye, your get a 2:1 advantage on cranking up the halyard (should be the spinnaker halyard as this usually has a pivoting block at the top of the mast) and may ...MAY...just get someone hoiked back on board....Anyway, that is one of the recognised rescue options, and actually preferred to getting somoene to go around the back of the boat to the swim ladder. In any kind of sea at all (like the kind it likely takes to knock you overboard and put you in danger) the stern on most boats is like a big heavy hammer, and your head is the nail. You and the boat do not rise and fall on the waves at the same rate....

Also, having someone decide to opt for the back of the boat means that the engine really should be shut off, which limits manuevarabilty in case the getting on board does not work and you need to go get them again.

Basically, it is a touch problamatic in anything other then calm conditions.

Does not work to well single handing.

Perfered method for single handed?

Lynx-

I think part of the problem is that the preferred method of getting back aboard is going to be slightly different for every boat.

Quote from: Lynx on February 26, 2007, 08:55:30 AM
Does not work to well single handing.

Perfered method for single handed?

Just brainstorming (ie, I have not tried this aboard, but will), why not keep a couple of loops of light line in your pocket to tie a couple of prusik hitches into your tether.  Then you could "walk" up them like a moving rope ladder.  (Prusik loops are the tied-rope versions of jumars and resemble a rolling hitch with a loop for your foot).

Prusik Hitch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusik_knot)
Another Prusik Hitch (http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/Friction%20Hitches.html#Prussik)


Now, before I get 50,000 reasons why this won't work, let me say this is THE way for self-rescue from a crevasse fall in glacier mountaineering.  The idea is that your rope mate must secure the rope to arrest your fall, and if he's doing that, he really cannot rescue you.  So, you keep the prusik loops tied to the rope and stuffed into your pocket.  If you fall into a crevasse, you are hanging by the rope.  Out come the loops, slip them around your boots and up you go.

I *HAVE* done this, and it works.  Somewhere around here I have a pic I took from INSIDE such a hole while hanging by the rope before I climbed out.  Adapting it to use on the boat should be relatively minor.

There is also another technique in aid climbing that's called a "self-pulley."  I once demonstrated the combination of self-pulley and prusiks by climbing a vertical rope suspended 80 ft from a pine tree limb.  The self pulley has you holding onto the 'fall' of a line that is holding you after it goes through a block (or in climbing, simply a carabiner usually).  You 'bounce' your weight while pulling on the fall and up you go.  It is NOT that hard, and to get back aboard, you only need to go a few feet.

Third, and I think this aid climbing technique has a lot to recommend it aboard, how about keeping a set of etriers handing (in a pocket, or permanently rigged on the side of the boat).  They are easy to make (it takes about 5 minutes using flat webbing).

Here we are not talking about techniques that are of much use if you are incapicitated or seriously injured.  That's a different ball of wax. 

I have some automotive seat belt strap that I will cleat off at the forward mooring cleat and run back on either side of the cabin house to some secure point near the companionway. 

Then take a 6' line and tie a loose bowline around the strap, the other end of the line gets another bowline that I would snap the harness on to.

I don't have a harness yet so I haven't tried this.

Quote from: skylark on February 26, 2007, 11:19:20 PM
I have some automotive seat belt strap that I will cleat off at the forward mooring cleat and run back on either side of the cabin house to some secure point near the companionway. 

Then take a 6' line and tie a loose bowline around the strap, the other end of the line gets another bowline that I would snap the harness on to.

I don't have a harness yet so I haven't tried this.

That sounds like a good plan and I will do similarly. Not to overstate the obvious, but I will add a good sharp knife to the list ON MY PERSON in case I have to cut that tether loose QUICKLY.

ADD a good sharp knife??? You mean you don't already carry one?

I'm NEVER without my Leatherman and when sailing I may even add a rigging knife on my person. Laura usually has her swiss army knife on a lanyard around her neck or in a pocket when we are sailing.

I've used a readily available knife to get out of a serious  fix on board twice now in my sailing days- I'll NEVER be without one ON ME when I'm out there.

A good sharp blade is about as needed as your pants when you are sailing, in my opinion

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 27, 2007, 12:21:18 AM

ADD a good sharp knife??? You mean you don't already carry one?

Right.  I just meant add it to the list that was quoted for rigging jacklines - for benefit of any possible new sailors who may not realize you need a quick escape route when TYING oneself to the boat (as opposed to using quick release snap shackles).   ;)

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 27, 2007, 12:21:18 AM


A good sharp blade is about as needed as your pants when you are sailing, in my opinion

Defintely... the problem comes up in really nice weatherwhen I cruise without pants!

Haven´t found a suitable pocket for it then... :P

 ;D ;D That IS a problem then ;D ;D

I was just surprised at his "add" because I figured he was experienced enough to KNOW to have one really handy.

A howdy from Texas and a big welcome aboard by the way.

Never made it to Sweden. Made it to Norway once, but that's not quite the same is it? ;)

That's what lanyards are for... no pockets needed.  BTW, I generally carry a Boyes rigging knife and have rigging knives attached to all of the harnesses.  I also like the Leatherman Charge series of pocket tools, and have one that lives on the GPS chartplotter bracket. 

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 27, 2007, 08:57:31 AM

I was just surprised at his "add" because I figured he was experienced enough to KNOW to have one really handy.

Okay, okay, I went back and read my original post and see how I managed to make myself look like a fool.

I wrote "I will add" when I meant to type "I would add."  When will these computer thingies just know what I want to say and correct me when I mistype?   ;D ;D

ROFL- funny how one little word can make such a difference isn't it?

Quote from: CharlieJ on February 27, 2007, 08:57:31 AM


Never made it to Sweden. Made it to Norway once, but that's not quite the same is it? ;)

Sweden(i e the Baltic) has an advantage(?) of no tides, and a terrific archipelago to provide a private anchorage to every one who would care for one.

However Norway is a LOT more beatiful if you ask me. Never been to NZ, but from what I´ve seen in photos, I would vote on Norway and NZ as the most beatiful countries in the world.

sorry... way OT here.  8)

FWIW I also love my Leatherman tool   ;)

In an attempt to say something ON the topic:

A couple of sturdy eye-bolts in the cockpit and jacklines from stem to companionway is what I´ve finally gone for. I use flat lines - like belts- ´cause the rope ones is a lethal trap once you step on them and they roll under your foot.

That said, I really don´t feel comfortable with the tethers. Sure makes everything a hassle on foredeck. But the alternative; IF the unthinkable would happen, is a slightly worse, I assume. 

Jacklines and tethers are a major concern and a major topic of discussion.  Here's a link to a thread on the Singlehanded Sailing Society Forum about jacklines, including a vivid description of a fatal incident during the 1999 Doublehanded Farallones Race.

http://p4.forumforfree.com/safety-jacklines-vt151-sss.html

Good article Bob.  I have the jacklines on the Pretty Gee run from the aft part of the bow pulpit along each side to the stern cleat.   The lines run outside the shrouds and let me go forward with little trouble, as I have the entire ama deck and netting to go forward on.  It does help that the boat is 18' wide. 

However, I don't generally clip in unless I'm single-handing or the weather/seas are really rough, since the boat is quite stable and doesn't heel much in even strong winds and seas.  A good example is when we were out last October, in 20 knots of wind with 4-6' seas to start with—no one was tethered.  Even at the end of that day, which was more like 28 knots of wind, with gusts to 35, and seas as large as the occassional nine-footer or so thrown in... it was fine. 

One thing that helps a lot, is that unlike many trimarans, the amas on the Pretty Gee have a foot high bulwark along the outboard edge, which keeps the boat very dry, and makes going overboard much more difficult.

I was going to make this part of my Prepping my Seafarer for the Scoot (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1816.0) thread; but figure it would be better here.

I want to discuss jacklines.  Maybe we'll talk a little about tethers, too. 

On The Scoot, I have two big concerns regarding falling overboard.

#1 How to avoid it.
#2 How to get back onboard should #1 fail.

First, if we could, let's consider the strength requirements for the Jackline....

Quote from: nmwarren on July 22, 2008, 01:00:00 PM

Marisafe also has good deals on other equipment.  I got the 20' jacklines and they are a good length for boats in the 23-25' range:
http://www.marisafe.com/store/viewItem.asp?ID=353510790&CID=35350000

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 22, 2008, 08:38:11 PM

BTW, I wouldn't get the jacklines there...since most recommendations for jacklines suggest a minimum breaking strength at 6,000 lbs. :) The ones at the site you mention have a BL of 4,400 lbs.

I believe I have seen two recommendations for jackline breaking strength, one around 4400 or 4500 lbs, and one at 6000 lbs (outside of the referenced thread).  Excuse me for throwing conventional wisdom, or generic recommendations, out the window.  But could someone give me an idea of what kind of forces a jackline is likely to experience.  Let's assume a crewman who weighs 260# goes overboard on the high side (so he has further to fall ... 6 or 7 feet maybe?), and then gets dragged along at around 6 knots.  The estimate I think I recall hearing (dammit, I'm working on flakey memory an awful lot lately) was that the jackline might have to absorb a ton of force when the crewman gets jerked up.  But there is stretch in nylon webbing, and the force would be coming from the side.  It seems to me there would be a fair amount of shock absorption.  But let's say that my recollection is correct and the strap has to handle 2000 lbs, that is still significantly less than the 4400 lbs provided by the inexpensive jacklines.  Is it really necessary or desireable to go up to 6000# (or even 9800# like you find at hathaways.com (http://www.hathaways.com/exclusives/jacklines.asp))?  I'm thinking the higher recommendations might be more valuable on larger, faster boats.  Please educate me!


Second, how should jacklines be installed?

The way I see it mentioned mostly is to attach the jacklines to a large, through bolted cleat or hard point at the bow, and have them run back on either side of the boat to  cleats near the stern.  This would have the jacklines near the sides of the boat which goes against the other common rule, which is to keep them as close to centerline as possible.

I'm thinking the best solution would be to have two halves of a jackline run from either side of the companionway hatch (or dodger) up to a point a little forward of the mast and shrouds.  This would keep them closer to the centerline of the boat.  From that same point forward of the mast, attach another line which would run to the large cleat/hardpoint at the bow.  I would say that two tethers would be mandatory with this system.

Disadvantage:

• You would need to unattach/reattach yourself on the way to/from the bow.  In the event of a time critical emergency, the sailor may neglect to hook on. (Bad, BAAAD sailor <slapping wrist vigorously>)
• Vendors don't appear to sell ready made straps in these smaller lengths.

Advantage:

• With the jacklines closer to center, if the sailor slips, he is more likely to be caught short before going swimming, and if he does get wet, probably will be hanging off the side of the boat a little higher up.
• With shorter lengths, the jacklines shouldn't stretch as much.

Third and finally, how the heck are you gonna pull yourself back onboard?  I did not sign on to be shark bait.

If you are on the low side it may be possible to scramble the short distance back on deck.  If well heeled over perhaps the high side would be horizontal enough to scramble onto.  Somehow, I seriously doubt it would be this easy.  And if relatively upright, I can't think of anything promising.

An aft boarding ladder might be useful in general; but I don't see how, using my planned jackline system, you would ever get there while remaining attached to the boat.  If you fall off forward of the shrouds, a rope ladder you can pull down from the shrouds might be useful.  If you go under the lifelines, you might not make it back that far (actually, on my Seafarer I would make it back as currently configured ... maybe I shouldn't add that extra stanchion after all).  If you fall overboard behind the shrouds, well, I guess it would be necessary to have another set of rope ladders (anyone know of a design that is reasonably easy to climb) that can be grabbed from near the cockpit (that would make it four emergency rope ladders ... I wonder if I can get bulk pricing).

Hmm.  I guess keeping the tether short so as to not fall overboard at all may be the best solution.  But then would I be able to do work?  Scary topic.

Related thread: Mounting hardware for tether (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=959.0)

Simple rules:

Keep the boat in the water
Keep the water out of the boat
Stay in the boat

Okay - I have that off my chest. <grin>

Many people run jacklines from bow cleats to stern cleats. That works fine. I have separate attachment points for mine mostly because I don't like having to disconnect one thing to attach another -- the thought of wrapping a jackline around the prop while maneuvering around a dock is embarrassing at least.

You make good points about staying on the boat. Although my jacklines run outboard of the shrouds, I do wrap one leg of my tether around the mast when working there.

The combination of jackline and tether should let you get all the way to the stern.

I've given occasional thought to the problem of getting back on the boat. I keep coming back to the reality that not falling off is a real good idea. <grin> If we put too much safety stuff on our boats they will be safely on the bottom. Frankly if adrenaline doesn't get me back on I'm not sure I'll make it.

There was a debate as a tangent on something else (single handing) on SailNet the other day and one poster, who makes custom jacklines and tethers, had a very strong opinion about tethers keeping you from going over even if it means having multiples of different lengths. He brought up a lot of the same issues you did. It's like there are 2 schools of thought - is a tether supposed to keep you on the boat or just with the boat? If the boat isn't absolutely self righting (multihull or whatever), a short tether would mean that you would have to unclip in order to surface if you capsized and risk getting separated from the boat. You would likely have to unclip anyway, but it would be good to be able to surface and get your bearings, and hopefully be holding on when you unclipped. On a traditional blue water monohull, I think what he says makes sense. But I am an armchair blue water sailor; haven't been there, haven't done that and anybody can buy the shirt.  8) I have thought about this more for making sure I stay with my boat under less perilous circumstances.

The main reason for the need for such a high breaking load is that the shock loads of a person thrown across the boat by a broach or accidental gybe can generate much higher loads than their actual weight.  Rotational acceleration, like that caused by a broach or gybe can easily exceed gravitational acceleration by an order of magnitude. 

As for tethers, many are available that have a 1-meter and a 2-meter leg.  That gives you two points to anchor yourself with as you move around the boat, as well as a few different ways to attach to the boat.  :)

I have my jacklines setup to keep me on the boat for the most part... the only time they wouldn't really work to do is when the amas are retracted, but they would still allow me to get to the stern and get back aboard.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 24, 2008, 04:50:41 PM

Rotational acceleration, like that caused by a broach or gybe can easily exceed gravitational acceleration by an order of magnitude. 

10 G's, really?  A SAILBOAT broach producing g-forces in the same regime as an F-16?

Got a creditable citation for that?

FWIW,

Just a little more 'opinion' with a little experience mixed in.

  If we are talking about jack lines on small boats, I doubt a system can be made that would both allow mobility and keep you from going over the rail.  The distance from the sidedeck to the rail is just too short, your jacklines (even low stretch) will stretch enough if rigged fore/aft for ~20 -25'.  Even if you ran the jacklines through the 'D' ring on your harness you are going to have enough stretch to flip over the rail.

  The distances are simply too short... unless you are talking about multiple attachment points along the jackline.... which would be a real pain when going fwd.

  Rose and I simply used a pair of double braid dock lines running from the bow cleats to the stern cleats.  I like, and had looked into, flat strap jacklines, but they were going to cost too much.  Yes, the round dock lines can roll under your feet just like in the magazine articles, but going forward off shore your CG should be low enough you are not gonna be standing upright anyway.   Our inflatable vests (only worn off shore) have built in harnesses... our tethers were 3/4" 3 strand with seized bowlines to heavy SS snap hooks (rated at #3900 IIRC).

  We were clipped in whenever on deck, and were able to go forward with a minimum of tangling.

  Keep in mind, that going over the side if you have lifelines is going to be messy anyway... your tether is likely to go over the top of your lifelines and bend some stanchions.  The problem of getting back into the boat is a much better one to have then the problem of being left behind IMHO.

  If anyone is thinking about getting something complicated, keep in mind that if your 'system' is too much of a pain to use.. you probably won't. 

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 24, 2008, 05:15:37 PM

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 24, 2008, 04:50:41 PM

Rotational acceleration, like that caused by a broach or gybe can easily exceed gravitational acceleration by an order of magnitude. 

10 G's, really?  A SAILBOAT broach producing g-forces in the same regime as an F-16?

Got a creditable citation for that?

Here we go ... THIS is EXACTLY what I was thinking.  Even if the force is 10 G's, and even with my oversized butt, that would bring the force to 2,600 lbs.  1800 lbs less than the breaking strength of the cheaper jack lines.  That would hurt, but it seems like I should remain attached to the boat.  A 6000 lb breaking strength jack line would hold me through 23 G's.  If that happened, I'm not sure there would be enough of me left to drag back onboard.

I just *knew* you guys were going to make me do math.

Remember the load is perpendicular to the original line of the jackline, and all the load has to be taken in tension (two ends pinned with an elastic structural connection).

So over-simplifying a bit for example:

If the initial deformation of the jackline results in a 20 degree angle and the load is 500# (you plus drag of you in the water) the tension in the line is

tension = 500# / sin (20 deg) = 1432#

That's just the static case. If you add dynamics (you hurtling across the deck before you take up on the tether) and if you have a jackline that doesn't stretch much, and you cinch it up real tight, the numbers get real big real fast.

Ignore drag, assume 3G deceleration when you hit the tether, and assume stretch and tightness limit the angle to 12 deg (seems a decent number <grin>) and you get

tension = 3 * 250 / sin (12 deg) = 4300#

If you use Excel, remember that it does trig functions in radians and you will have to convert.

I seem to remember reading that it is easier to break a line by pulling on the center of it, when the ends are secured, as with a jackline, than it is with a straight line pull. I have also read about sailors in roll overs, breaking their tethers. I believe I would err on the high side when it comes to break strength.

On my bristol 24, I run a single 6000# jackline from the portside of the bow, to the stern. I always move along the starboard side of the boat when possible. That, at least, prevents me from going over the starboard life line, and If I go over the port side; I can reach the boarding strap or ladder. I hope with enough adrenaline, I can get back aboard. I can also reach the autopilot control from the port side. i also have strong, hard points for the cockpit and bow.

Keep the boat in the water
Keep the water out of the boat
Stay in the boat

revised boating rules:

Keep the water out of the boat
Keep the boat in the water
Keep the people in the boat
Keep the slimey side down
Look good

Ah, ha!  The math!  Good!

Those numbers just seem hard to fathom.   

Quote from: okawbow on July 24, 2008, 06:34:50 PM

On my bristol 24, I run a single 6000# jackline from the portside of the bow, to the stern. I always move along the starboard side of the boat when possible.

How do you get past the mast?

I wish I could remember the name of the solo multiple circumnavigator who always kept a trailing line off the stern in case he went over. He did, in a storm. Said he would never forget that you can't climb back on-board while being towed behind the boat. Kind'da like trying to climb back on-board while being keelhauled. Exhusted and in poor shape, still attached, he was fished out 4 days latter off NZ by a passing boat

Someone here (Auspicious Dave was that you, by chance?) I think posted a link a while back to some MOB rescue 'data' that outlined a BUNCH of at-sea MOB cases.

Many resulted in drowning, with the MOB AT the boat...being drug through the water...but unable to board.  A crewperson tired BEFORE the stress of finding himself overboard, cold water and being trolled at 6 kts means that you have very little time ( about 2 minutes?? does anyone remember the 'stat' on this) to get back aboard.  Total and complete exhaustion happens about that fast.

It's truly scary stuff.  Offshore, MOB with a shorthanded crew is NOT a good situation.  STAY ON THE BOAT is the way to approach it, imo, and you have to believe that if you DO go over the side, you have a very, very small chance of surviving.

s/v Godot-

You also have to account for loss of strength due to chafe, uv-deterioration, and other such things.   The best jacklines I've seen were made of 6mm Spectra line inside a polyester tubular webbing jacket.  It had a breaking load of over 10,000 lbs, with the core spectra line providing 8,500 lbs. of the strength.

Capn Smollett-

As for numbers... here (http://hypertextbook.com/physics/mechanics/acceleration/) are some for you:

a (g)    event
2.9    sneeze
3.5    cough
3.6    crowd jostle
4.1    slap on back
8.1    hop off step
10.1    plop down in chair
60    chest acceleration limit during car crash at 48 km/h with airbag
70 - 100    crash that killed Diana, Princess of Wales, 1997
150 - 200    head acceleration limit during bicycle crash with helmet

So, I do believe that falling across 8' of boat rotated through 70˚ of heel from port to starboard might well leave you with g-forces of well over 10 G's.  In fact, you can probably break 20-30 G's in a spinnaker broach.

Gee Dan, thanks for putting it so...... graphically  ::)  ;D

Tim-

Glad to help. :)   After all, Capn Mullet seems to doubt the G-forces that can be generated on a sailboat.  If plopping your butt down in a chair can generate 10 G's of force... getting thrown across a boat by a spinnaker broach or accidental gybe is probably at least 10 G's of force IMHO. 

He doesn't seem to understand that G-forces don't require great speed...since they don't measure speed but rates of acceleration and deceleration.  For instance, dropping a computer 60 CM onto the floor can generate up to 500 G's of force... since the deceleration cause by the computer hitting the desk and stopping suddenly is very high.

Here's a explanation using a Steel ball  (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Physics-1358/G-Force-object-free.htm)and actual numbers:

QuoteFor simplicity, suppose that you drop a steel ball, which has a diameter of 10 cm and a mass of 1.0 kg, onto a thick steel plate from a height of 60 cm. The ball will, for all pracical purposes, bounce elastically from the plate.

Suppose that during the collision process the steel ball compresses one millimeter. [While this figure is a bit large, it makes things simple to calculate]

The speed of the ball when it reaches the floor can be found using energy conservation: GPE=KE therefore m*g*h=1/2*m*v^2 Solve for v = sqrt(2*g*h)=-3.43 m/s.

The time for the ball to stop can be determined from D=Vave*t, therefore the time can be calculated by dividing the distance traveled during the collision by the average velocity during the collision. t=0.001m/3.43/2=0.00058sec.
Finally, the acceleration can be determined from Vf=a*t+Vo

where Vo=3.43m/s,Vf=0m/s and t=0.00058sec

t=3.43/.00058=5914m/s^2.

Since the acceleration of gravity is 9.8m/s^2 this will give an acceleration in terms of the gravitational acceleration of 5914/9.8=603 g's!

(Adam, sorry for the hijack).

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 24, 2008, 10:34:56 PM

a (g)    event
2.9    sneeze
3.5    cough
3.6    crowd jostle
4.1    slap on back
8.1    hop off step
10.1    plop down in chair
60    chest acceleration limit during car crash at 48 km/h with airbag
70 - 100    crash that killed Diana, Princess of Wales, 1997
150 - 200    head acceleration limit during bicycle crash with helmet

So, I do believe that falling across 8' of boat rotated through 70˚ of heel from port to starboard might well leave you with g-forces of well over 10 G's.  In fact, you can probably break 20-30 G's in a spinnaker broach.

Uh, this is all well and good, but where does it say anything about a sail boat broaching on that web page?  Beliefs are not facts, nor are they citations of actual measurements.  Sorry.

The key misleading thing about that list is that those are very quick decelerations...not the same thing as centripetal acceleration due to a turning boat.

Let's see...as I recall from my days teaching college physics, centripetal acceleration of a body rotating at a constant rate was pretty straightforward to calculate.

a = rw^2

where r is the radius of the turn and w is the rotational velocity.

Let's say the boat makes a 90 degree broach in 3 seconds, and turns within one boat length...say 30 ft for a sailfar boat. 

This gives

r = 30 ft
w = 90 degrees / 3 seconds = (pi/2 radians) / 3 seconds = 0.52 radians per second

Thus a = 8.11 ft/s^2, or about 0.25 g, since 1 g = 32 ft/s^2

Even if we assume only one second to go through a 90 degree broach, that gives a = 2.3 g.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 24, 2008, 11:17:51 PM

After all, Capn Mullet seems to doubt the G-forces

Uh, are we reduced to name calling now?

I call "foul."  This marks the end of civilized discussion.

Quote

He doesn't seem to understand that G-forces don't require great speed...since they don't measure speed but rates of acceleration and deceleration.  For instance, dropping a computer 60 CM onto the floor can generate up to 500 G's of force... since the deceleration cause by the computer hitting the desk and stopping suddenly is very high.

Dan, you are so wrong about this, and I really wish you would stop misleading people.

We are not decelerating the boat in 0.2 seconds like dropping a ball in a plate or in a car crash.  We are talking about TURNING a boat.

If you do not understand the physics of what you are talking about, perhaps it would be better to not comment.

But that's all from me on this subject.  You may once again have the last word.

Again, you're missing the important part... the deceleration of the body when it falls across the boat, due to the rotation of the broach.  When it goes from whatever velocity you achieve from the 2.3 G's of acceleration to 0 at the end of the tether is when you get the high G-forces... not when the boat launches you across the deck—which is 2.3 G's according to your calculations.

Free falling after jumping out of an airplane is only going to accelerate you at 1 G... ignoring air friction losses... Hitting the ground because your parachute didn't open isn't going to be a 1 G-force event.  ::)

BTW, Capn Mullet, I'm a bit tired of your pompous and arrogant answers that are usually incorrect.  You're the one making the false assumption that the high G-forces are caused by the acceleration due to the broach, not during the deceleration due to the tether catching you, but you're the one accusing me of being wrong.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 24, 2008, 09:04:48 PM

Quote from: okawbow on July 24, 2008, 06:34:50 PM

On my bristol 24, I run a single 6000# jackline from the portside of the bow, to the stern. I always move along the starboard side of the boat when possible.

How do you get past the mast?

If i'm using the 6' tether, I can actually reach the headstay to change jibs without unhooking.( only 9' on the Bristol 24) If I want to, I hook my 3' tether in front of the mast, and then unhook the long one. I do whatever possible to avoid the chance of going over.

So, you're not bringing the tether, where it attaches to the jackline, forward of the mast, just using the length of the tether and your arms to reach to the headstay, while the tether is partially wrapped around the mast.  That wouldn't work on my boat.

Quote from: okawbow on July 24, 2008, 11:29:21 PMIf i'm using the 6' tether, I can actually reach the headstay to change jibs without unhooking.( only 9' on the Bristol 24) If I want to, I hook my 3' tether in front of the mast, and then unhook the long one. I do whatever possible to avoid the chance of going over.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on July 24, 2008, 09:46:09 PM
Someone here (Auspicious Dave was that you, by chance?) I think posted a link a while back to some MOB rescue 'data' that outlined a BUNCH of at-sea MOB cases.

Yes, that would be these: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/lifesling_history.htm

There are lots of take-aways from those case studies for any sized boat and crew. I think the most relevant to solo and two-up sailors are:

1. Don't fall off the boat.
2. Complexity is prone to failure in systems and procedures.
3. Being dragged through the water is bad.

The cases are sobering regardless. So often we talk in terms of what we think will happen, or might happen. It is interesting to have a statistically significant number of reports of what did happen.

Directly to the point of staying on the boat, in addition to jacklines--regardless of how they are rigged--I have two very heavily backed padeyes in the cockpit. Clipped to either of those I can't even reach the lifelines much less go over the side.

As in so many areas, there is a lot more opinion than fact. Even technical calculations (certainly including mine above) are just the manipulation of various assumptions. Personally I find case studies (of which there are few aggregations) and racing rules (like the ORC rules) most instructive. The latter may still have a component of opinion in them, but it is the consensus opinion of lots of people with lots of experience. Aside from the electronic equipment and liferafts, the ORC requirements aren't particularly expensive and do provide a baseline from which to scale solutions to smaller boats.

Having laid the foundation for more opinion <grin> I will say that based on direct personal side-by-side comparison that I do *not* like the fancy expensive Wichard double-action hooks on tethers. Under even moderate stress I found them awkward to get off the jackline. I like either a quick-release snap shackle or a carabiner for connection to my harness and a carabiner for connection to padeyes and jacklines. YMMV.

Dave said;

Quote from: Auspicious on July 25, 2008, 02:44:37 AM
Directly to the point of staying on the boat, in addition to jacklines--regardless of how they are rigged--I have two very heavily backed padeyes in the cockpit. Clipped to either of those I can't even reach the lifelines much less go over the side.....

  Excellent point.  Fixes the problem I was talking about below... I will add this to Faith's cockpit.  Grog for Dave...  ;)

Quote from: s/v Faith on July 24, 2008, 05:35:44 PM
FWIW,

Just a little more 'opinion' with a little experience mixed in.

  If we are talking about jack lines on small boats, I doubt a system can be made that would both allow mobility and keep you from going over the rail.  The distance from the sidedeck to the rail is just too short, your jacklines (even low stretch) will stretch enough if rigged fore/aft for ~20 -25'.  Even if you ran the jacklines through the 'D' ring on your harness you are going to have enough stretch to flip over the rail.

  The distances are simply too short... unless you are talking about multiple attachment points along the jackline.... which would be a real pain when going fwd.

The OSHA requirements for safety harnesses and safety lanyards are a holding strength of 6000 lbs. This is based on test that show a 200 lb. person free falling for six feet will exert a force of 5500 lbs. It is also true that the breaking strength of a line is measured for a straight line force, if you attach in the center it varies with the force exerted for and aft and with the side pressure of the safety lanyard attached the results can reduce the breaking strength easily by one half. I only have about 30 days of blue water sailing experience but I have 35 years of industrial maintenance experience much of it 20 to 100 feet above the ground. Alway error on the side of safety. On offshore trips we uses a 10000 lb flat jack line each side fore to aft attached to thru bolted and backed attachment points

Quote from: Sid T on July 25, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
The OSHA requirements for safety harnesses and safety lanyards are a holding strength of 6000 lbs. This is based on test that show a 200 lb. person free falling for six feet will exert a force of 5500 lbs. It is also true that the breaking strength of a line is measured for a straight line force, if you attach in the center it varies with the force exerted for and aft and with the side pressure of the safety lanyard attached the results can reduce the breaking strength easily by one half. I only have about 30 days of blue water sailing experience but I have 35 years of industrial maintenance experience much of it 20 to 100 feet above the ground. Alway error on the side of safety. On offshore trips we uses a 10000 lb flat jack line each side fore to aft attached to thru bolted and backed attachment points

Sobering thought.  Ok.  I'm convinced. 

What Sid T is true. BUT the thing won't work unless you are hooked on. I had a guy fall 17 ft. in a power plant in Arkanas. He suffered a broken pelvic bone and a compression fracture of the spine :o. He did have his safety harness on... BUT... he didn't have it hooked to anything ::) ::) ::). He turned out OK and I tell this story to all the new hires I work with. Anything dealing with safety only works if it is used.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

Very true... that's one reason I switched to integrated harness/pfds earlier this year. They're a lot more comfortable to wear than the separate PFD/Harness combos.

This had been an interesting thread UNTIL the name calling began. I'm sorry but I quickly lose interest when that happens. Disagreement, even vehement disagreement can be managed without that.

Agreed wholeheartedly, CJ, and this is very disappointing... I am surprised that I am having to post this, at being made to put on this hat.

We here are - or at least SHOULD BE - adult enough to handle disagreements without resorting to that sort of thing. I regard being disrespectful of others in any manner as being disrespectful to all of us. It doesn't make discussion points any better, it doesn't educate our readers any more, and it adds absolutely nothing to the discourse nor to the Community we have.

I do not want to, and I do not like even the idea of having to, exercise dictatorial powers on this site.

But - I will. And without remorse, when the time comes for it.

And for clarity: there will be no 'appeals process' involved, if and when I am forced to act in this manner. Having to do so will not have been my choice; it will have been something forced upon me by someone else. That makes me grumpy, stubborn, and recalcitrant.

I say the above, and absolutely mean it, out of respect and regard for the sailFar Community, for all the other people here who willingly conduct themselves with decorum and propriety, as well as for the shared goals and ideals which we all purport to love and hold among our highest aspirations and dreams.

Keep it civil. Or take it elsewhere.

That's the Rules.

Period.

--------------------

That said, I am both enjoying this discussion and learning from it, and I hope that it will continue.

:)

I don't have the numbers to back it up, just a basic understanding from things I've read, but from what I do know I'd say that just about everything written here so far is correct to a point. It's obvious that the loads imposed on the tether/jackline system peak much higher than you'd think, even if the initial forces don't seem to be that large. Same thing on your standing rigging; that single 1x19 wire might be able to hold 2 or 3 of your boats weight up in the air, but the shock loading it can get when just 1 of your boats falls off a wave with a loaded rig can pop it like it was a single cotton thread, if everything happens *just so*. That's why a true 'bluewater boat' will have a rig that is much, much stronger than it apparently needs to be (and conversely, a weekender might not have quite that same margin).

Some random info: My brother is a pilot, and he told me that airline seats are rated at 19G's vertical. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Highest_g-forces_survived_by_humans) has some interesting info, including that race car driver Kenny Brack survived a crash that sensors in his car put at 214g's. But a post I read on another site seemed to put it in perspective best:

QuoteInstantaneous G's don't mean much.
A flick of your middle finger is all it takes to trigger a 100G shipping shock sensor.

You have to look at the entire acceleration (de-acceleration) curve vs. time to
get a better picture of whats going on.

So I'd say that based on this, and what SidT relates above, instead of arguing over how many/much G's are produced, it would be a lot easier to say "The continuity of my cruising lifestyle is of such importance to me that a 6,000#/10,000#/pick-a-personal-number# breaking strength jackline would be a Good Thing to have, even if it is more than I will probably ever need..."

We can be guilty of over-analyzing things, eh? ;D

Having been married for almost 20 years, I can tell you that having facts on your side in argument means something. What, I am not sure, but something. This post might have a point, but I am not sure what it is... Dear???

Since I started this thread, I want to apologize for any induced enmity and hurt feelings.  I'm afraid that is always a risk when challenging conventional wisdom.  It was certainly not my intention.  What was my intention was to answer...

1. Is a 6000# jackline really necessary and why.  Apparently, it IS necessary because the forces it could be forced to survive can be quite extraordinary.  I still find it hard to accept they can be as high as suggested; but that doesn't mean it is not true.  Prudence will probably win out, here.

2. The best way to string the jacklines across the deck.  No consensus at all here that I can figure.  I think I'm going with my original plan of jacklines in two pieces, the first piece on the left and right sides of the dodger up to a point just forward of the mast, and the second piece a centerline jackline from just forward of the mast to as far forward as necessary to handle all tasks up there.

3. How to get back on board after going swimming (while still attached via harness and jackline).  Some want to run the jacklines bow to stern on the outside of the shrouds (I'm assuming deck mounted shrouds that are well inboard).  Others just shudder and get fatalistic about surviving at all.   I'm kind of falling into the second camp at the moment.  I am getting some ideas, though.  Sadly, to see if they are valid may require actually being dragged via jackline beside a moving sailboat.  I'm not sure I want to try that out (I suspect injuries ranging from bad bruises to cracked ribs to worse are possible, even with a safety crew).

Adam, one other thing I have seen some cruisers do:

Run a line up well above the stanchions, secured to the shrouds, as an additional thing to grab onto in order to hopefully avoid going off the side.

Using a tether which has 2 'biners (in addition to the one clipped to your harness) would allow you to have multiple short jacklines that would make it impossible for you to go off the side (or very far off). Yes, you have to clip/unclip more often as you move forward on deck, but if the point is for the thing to keep you on the boat, then that necessity would seem to outweigh convenience...

Idea: It might be being done already, but it might be an interesting thing if someone would make a tether which had a 'speed brake' (acceleration brake?) built into it, like a car seatbelt. Moving slow, it would unreel/reel in tether as needed, but if a sudden unreeling were to start, it would simply slam on a stop, and thus perhaps keep one from being thrown off.

Food for thought. :)

I think that with the two shorter jackline lengths that are as near as possible to the centerline the amount of stretch would be significantly reduced and with a 3 foot tether I would be far less likely to end up overboard.  I have to measure; but let's say eight or nine feet from the companionway to forward of the mast, and maybe a seven footer from the mast just close enough to the bow to do what needs to be done.  I would have to change jacklines as I moved to and from the foredeck which is slower and less convenient; although, maybe slowing down would be a good thing.  For extended work, I should be able to clip on to a hardpoint at the bow and at the mast, in addition to being clipped onto the jackline. 

Here is a thought ... if there where multiple places to clip on AT THE RAIL (how about one of those genoa rails where you would hook snatch blocks), say, at every place the swimming sailor would likely get caught up, would it be possible to build a kind of portable boarding ladder with maybe one step that can be carried with the harness?  Something that could be clipped on to a nearby point and used to give the poor drowning rat a booster step up.  Did I explain that well?  I don't know if it would work.  Being dragged along the side of your boat at five or six knots with an inflated vest might make doing work like this difficult; but I figure anything is better than nothing.

This has been quite an informative thread. I probably will continue to use the climbing webbing that I have rated at 17.8 kilonewtons LOL.  

Since I am redoing all my deck fittings right now I will keep in mind attachment points that keep the webbing as close to the centerline as possible, along with adding a closer attachment carabiner on the tether perhaps with a friction braking knot (gonna have to talk with climbing friends about that).

Obviously I am in the camp that has no intention of getting on the out side of the deck.

I just thought of a problem with my jackline scenario ... the forward jackline would go right over the top of my forehatch.  I'm not certain I want that blocked off (in fact, I'm fairly certain I DON'T want that blocked off).  I might need it for ventilation, stuffing things in the cabin in a hurry, or emergency egress.  So, to make things even more complicated, I guess I would need two jacklines running from either side of the forehatch it a single point at the bow.  Or, I would need to extend the aft jacklines up to either side of the hatch, and do a very short line from just forward of the hatch to the bow.  I need to make it to my boat (either this evening or after tomorrows sail with Auspicious (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24)) and see how things lay.

Just a thought -- most people clip on and go forward on the windward side without thinking about it much. Most of the "I fell overboard" stories including falling off to leeward. Accordingly, if jacklines are outboard you have the width of the boat to fall before going over the side.

Quote from: CapnK on July 26, 2008, 09:29:42 AM
Run a line up well above the stanchions, secured to the shrouds, as an additional thing to grab onto in order to hopefully avoid going off the side.

I've seen this also. I don't like it, *particularly* on small boats. If you hit that high lifeline at speed (falling across the deck for example, or even stumbling when the boat falls off a wave) you are putting a significant load (reference the jackline discussion) on the shroud in a direction it wasn't designed to take a load. That is one thing on my rigging (big stuff - 3/8" at least, with fore and aft lowers in addition to principal shrouds) and something else entirely with 1/8" wire.

A risk management approach to one risk (falling overboard) that adds a new risk (adding a failure mode for the rig) is not one I would participate in.

In my personal opinion this is a superficially good idea that doesn't work out in practice.

I would suggest as an alternative standard lifelines, standard jacklines, shorter tethers, and a practice of crawling out on deck. I'm not proud -- sometimes I crawl. In fact, my offshore foul weather gear has pads sewn into the knees to make crawling more comfortable.

sail fast, dave

I think I will continue to sail my N17 in the upper Pamlico and my arm chair out in the briny blue for now. There have been some scary numbers thrown around.

I don't have "the answer" either  :-\ But a thought provoking thread nonetheless.

Me first boat was a 21 foot Corribee and small with it (the price of good looks  8)) - lifelines at well below knee level, main benefit was to use as hand rails / lifelines if on all fours otherwise I just regarded them as potential trip wires. I never used jacklines or a tether, my MO was to crouch when going forward (to lower my C of G) with one hand on the cabin roof handrail. But sometimes sliding along on me bum along the coachroof. When at the mast would always keep one hand either gripping the mast / a halyard or if I needed two hands an arm was wrapped around the mast or if sitting down using my knees. Depending on what I was doing (and the conditions) I may be sitting down (or up and down a few times). As no roller reefing dropping the foresail meant going forward of the mast and quite often this was done sliding along the coach roof on my backside. Not always possible to use one hand to gather in the foresail, but usually sitting down with my feet securely planted and at least one hand was gripping the sail.

But apart from following the maxim "One hand for you, and one for the ship" the other big "safety" precaution I took was situational awareness. Not getting too engrossed in what I was doing by keeping one eye on my surroundings and looking around to be aware of other vessels / wakes and waves and windshifts.

Of course I did not always follow my own "rules" and it is quite possible that I have used up a chunk of my luck quota.....but looking back I am still comfortable with my approach. Probably a big risk of going overboard is at anchor, not only when setting or lifting the Anchor, but just walking around the deck when "safe".

If I had "Liza" again I would want a fixed ladder on the stern (indeed one of things planned for my current boat). and jacklines run down the centre line, Two cos' carried forward of the mast. and short tethers - as in addition to keeping you attached to the boat they are something to grab to try and regain balance, if not too long.

On my current boat (30 foot and heavy / solid with it) am also contemplating a fixed harness point at the bow. And two tethers. Fairly short and very short! Just in case the Roller Reefing (or something) needs work at the bow. or am setting a Parachute Anchor  :o (which I don't have!).

Over amidships and connected by Tether? If it is me alone then I think I am fooked.

All things being said, I don't think that this is one place to skimp on safety or money. So bite the bullet, spend the money, and do it right... your life might depend upon it.

Fair winds,

Pappy Jack

Question:

Who here has documented evidence of a jackline/tether failing, of a crew person being lost overboard because a jackline or tether broke?

I've never heard of it - but that certainly does not mean it's not happened.

Well, for what it's worth, the only time the boat took me out for a walk, we were well helled over and I hit the water before the the boat pulled my leash. When I got fished out, the only real visable result was a neon bruise on my leg. But, then again, we were moving slowly, not at storm speeds. It was not fun, although very funny to everyone else.  :'(

Perhaps I could maybe add two cents here-
And take this advice for what it is worth- free...
I was a climbing instructor and alpinist for many years before I went to medical school and found out I wasn't immortal. Falls are a big deal in cllimbing, and I have taken two zingers. One 120 feet (talk about the G-forces in that one!) and one about 35 feet. The long one only broke my leg, while the short one broke my back, leg and ribs. The difference was the impact. I feel into avalance snow with the first one, and on flat rock with the second fall. Acceleration is not near a fatal as deceleration impact and being thrown in the water is really a good thing, as long as the water slows us down and not a tether and jackline with no stretch (which probably does not represent the actual system- I am sure there is stretch.)
I feel that this system could be improved in a couple of  ways- somehow designing a jackline- tether system which would either 1. keep you glued to the boat, or 2. eject you far away from the boat that the fall is absorbed by the water and not the tether. 3. design a tether with steps or some way to climb it back into the boat.
I too have looked at the deaths and experience of MOB solo at sea, and I think getting tethered and being forced into the side of the boat/pinned to the hull may be a really bad thing. Perhaps a quick release could be build into the tether.
Finally, I know what I said may be wrong, but there is one way to prove these theorems. We need to go out and at different speeds get in the water with different tether/jackline combinations and find out what works and what doesn't.   I think a gentle slip into the water at slow speeds may tell me alot about my system, and that is what I am advocating. And not alone on the boat. I have some ideas for making a self rescue/MOB, but you can bet that I will not be doing this testing solo... :)

Quote from: newt on July 29, 2008, 11:54:47 AM
Perhaps a quick release could be build into the tether.

I thought that was a basic requirement; every one I have looked at has a quick release that can be opened even with a load on it.

As kids, we used to drag eachother behind the boat with a line tied to a cushion.

If you went faster than about 4 kts, you created your own bow wave making it difficult to breathe.

Something to think about. You could experiment, its fun. Or use your kids

Andy,
You are correct, mine does have a quick release.  That does not explain to me why people drown while attached to the tether. >:( Panic? Sounds like I need to get into the water with my tether to find out. I have dived on my boat when it was just limping along, and I learned a lot then.  I just cannot accept the fact that "I will never fall in so I am not going to think about it"  After all we did live MOB drills on dingys. I am just going to make sure my helmsman has a vested interest in my survival.

Quote from: OptiMystic on July 29, 2008, 01:12:42 PM

Quote from: newt on July 29, 2008, 11:54:47 AM
Perhaps a quick release could be build into the tether.

I thought that was a basic requirement; every one I have looked at has a quick release that can be opened even with a load on it.

Not all -- I have a couple with locking carabiners for the harness connection. I don't use them without carrying knife on a lanyard.

Another experiment I may do is : how long does a line need to be to grab if you fall overboard at hull speed? I could have this line attached to the tiller, causing the boat to come about and stop sailing. That way you could have a backup if the tether made it impossible to breathe after MOB release and grab the trailing line. (This is not my idea, but it would be interesting to see how practical it is)

I think people don't release while they are conscious enough to do so because they know their best odds (by far) are staying with the boat. Quite possibly many of them were trying to pull themselves toward the boat, maybe even making progress, when they lost consciousness. That's my theory because that is what I would do. If you are single handing and there isn't a boat right beside you, if you release and the boat moves away from you, you are probably done for. I am starting to understand the "really short tether" school of thought.

But the short tether is probably what holds your victim  to the side of the boat and causes drowning...what if a tether would have a quick release that would give you 20 more feet- enough to get around to the back of the boat, step into a trailing line with footholds in, and get back on the boat? I don't know, it may not be a good idea- but the only way we can know it to try out various scenarios and see what works.

Bravely looking to go where no sailor has gone before ;)

newt-

the idea of a quick release that gave you a longer tether is an interesting one.  You'd probably want a secondary release that would free you from the tether completely though.

newt,

The "really short tether" idea I was referring to is one I mentioned earlier as being suggested by someone on SailNet that makes tethers - so short that you can't go over the side. He was a really strong proponent of the thinking that a tether is supposed to keep you on the boat, not just with the boat. I think there are practicality issues with that and I also would be concerned about the possibility of a capsize in a boat that was righting slowly. You would have to unclip to come up for air and then could easily get separated from the boat. Hopefully, most of these scenarios are pretty far fetched. I think one intangible thing it will do for you to clip in is to remind you how serious the consequences are and help keep you attentive.

I love life's little coincidences! :o
The new issue of Practical Sailor has a review of, "Inflatable PFD's with Harness."
It says, "Any tether that leaves you in the water is too long. Tethers should be short enough to keep the wearer out of the water should he go overboard."
It also seems to validate my old belief that most MOB who drown do so because they are dragged face down (although IMHO most of those are out cold when they hit the water).
Side note: All jokes aside, do you know how to normally tell if a floater (body) is a man or a woman? Men- face down, women -face up. Hey! I said no jokes!

I take Practical Sailor too, but I seem to have trouble making this jack line on my Compac 23. The problem is both on the bow- ( how do I work my anchor rode over my dingy with a tight tether to the mast, because the bow pulpit gives me too much play) and in the cockpit (I am thinking about putting eye bolts next to the traveler because I have nothing inside the cockpit that is secure)
I am thinking about modifying a seatbelt device which would allow slow release, but freeze up on  quick release. On maybe like a dog walker, only beefier.
I think that when Practical Sailor spouts dogma like this...well, they arn't being very practical for us small guys are they? :o

  My Ariel has generous side decks compared to many other similar sized boats I have been on.  Running the jack lines down the sidedecks puts them less then 2' from the rail.  If you ran them down the centerline of the boat they will still be less then 4' from the rail (better not have a dodger... a must for small boat cruising IMHO).

  Like I said in an earlier post... even if you ran the jacklines through the 'D' ring on the harness with no tether you are still going to be able to go over the side.

 

QuoteThe new issue of Practical Sailor has a review of, "Inflatable PFD's with Harness." It says, "Any tether that leaves you in the water is too long. Tethers should be short enough to keep the wearer out of the water should he go overboard."

  I think this was written with 'Sail' magazine size boats in mind.  IHMO it is fantasy onboard a small boat.  The only exception I see is Dave's idea of having a padeye in the cockpit... and that will only keep you aboard if it is down low and the tether is not very long.

Our hard point is in the cockpit, right beside the companionway. It's a 1/4 stainless bow eye through bolted with the back up plate in place. The bulkhead at that point is 3/8 inch solid glass.. With our tethers we can go to the mast, stay in the cockpit or go below and stretch out on the seaberth all while hooked up. While in the cockpit there is VERY little chance either of us will go overboard. The last rearward stanchion, double lifelines plus the bimini frame make a "cage" around the cockpit that you simply cannot crawl out of, even if you tried. You COULD go through over the laz, but the tether would stop you before you reached the stern. So we are only exposed when we go to the mast or have to clip going forward. Then I'll have jacklines running the side decks and a shorter tether.

Of course we have one advantage- offshore there are always two aboard.

My tethers have two ends, one is 6' and the other is 3'.  I use the 3' on deck and the 6' in the cockpit.  I have plenty of room to unhank, hank and stuff sails with the 3' tether and I can't fall off with it.  I have room to move around in the cockpit with the 6' tether attached.  I don't go out of the cockpit without the 3' tether attached when I'm the only one on deck.  I keep the 6' attached when I'm the only one on deck.
This applies for cruising only, not day sailing.

Quote from: TJim on July 31, 2008, 05:37:40 PM....I have plenty of room to unhank, hank and stuff sails with the 3' tether and I can't fall off with it......

  I am not understanding something.  Are you saying you can stand up with a 3' tether on your harness and you can not fall overboard?  For instance, say you are walking forward, and you trip and loose your handhold... can you not roll over the side?  I can not picture the system that would prevent that (unless you are on a multi, with say a 3' tether and you are tethered to a jackline that is more then 3' inboard with very little or no stretch). ???

  I am not trying to be difficult I am thinking maybe there is something here I am missing.... I am kinda slow so it may take some pictures..  :P

  Thanks,

I run two jacklines, one on each side of my mast right down the middle of my boat and no, with a 3' tether
you can't fall off.  you can get to the forestay for sail changes and to the mast for reefing, you can also
stuff and or pull sails out of your forward hatch.  What else do you need to do? TJIM

PS... If I'm changing a headsail, I'm probably on my knees.  My tether attaches at waist level and I just
don't have a problem going fore and aft with a 3' tether.  At least no problem even close to  hanging
over the lifelines on a 6' tether. I have changed head sails in the slot between Alkatraz and SFran in
30 or more knots of wind without any problems other than being cold and wet.  135 down and 110 up,
probably took a total of about 3 to 4 minutes.  Threw in a reef shortly after that. TJim

Thanks,

  I still can't figure out how that set up makes it impossible to go over the side... I am glad it works for you though.  ;D

  Here is a grog to you for trying to make it more clear to me.   ;)

  I was born in the Bay area, and grew up spending my summers there (Corta Madera) staring out at the bay, and watching the boats..... always wanted to sail there, sure have seen some rough conditions out there!  Doubt I would go anywhere without a tether on the bay!  Sure would not last long in that water.  One of the coldest experiences of my life was watching the 4th of July fireworks from the headlands! .... I'm cold just thinking of it....  :o

From the Good Old Boat Newsletter (http://www.goodoldboat.com/newsletter/08_augnews61.php)...

Quote

How to get back aboard?

My first sail this season was a short solo run that raised lingering qualms about self-rescue in an overboard situation. Basically, I wouldn't be able to. I wear a life jacket and a tether harness (even when my wife is with me), but if you happen to go overboard when you're soloing and are harnessed in, the options for saving yourself are few and far between if all you're doing is dangling over the lifelines, being dragged along on the end of a harness. The trick is what to do next.

It's especially important in cold water. You don't have a lot of time for thrashing around before hypothermia gets you.

I've seen sailboat discussion groups wrestle with this challenge. There are also a lot of patents out there on man-overboard recovery schemes. My suggested solution comes out of racing a Fusion 15 dinghy. That design has a dump-recovery assist line that runs under the rolled hull-to-deck joint. It's basically a line that runs from the stern to the shock cord takeup on the trapeze. When you capsize, you grab this line (which is held taut otherwise by the shock cord), and it is a major help in getting up and staying on the very slippery centerboard.

As best I can figure, if you're alone and go over the side anywhere forward of the cockpit, you have to figure out how to get to the stern and reboard using the swim ladder, without losing contact with the boat. If there was a self-rescue line running along the toerail, you would need a second tether hook on your harness. You'd snap the second one onto the self-rescue line, then release the first one that has you attached to the toerail or jackline. Then you're free to work your way back to the stern, flip down the ladder, and get back aboard. I haven't actually tried this yet (I'm waiting for Georgian Bay to warm up) but it seems plausible.

People may think — with a jackline along the deck or cabintop — that you can just work your way back to the stern, with the tether clip sliding along it. But the reality is that the tether on your harness (if it's long enough to allow you to float freely) is likely to snag on the stanchion tops as you try to move to the stern. The only way to find out is to jump overboard and test it. At any rate, the whole subject is one worth exploring, with the aim being to figure out a system an owner can install without a great deal of fuss.

Doug Hunter

Doug and the editors welcome further discussion on this topic, and experimentation with this and other techniques.

(from the "Doug and the editors welcome further discussion on this topic, and experimentation with this and other techniques" comment on the bottom of the article I am working under the assumption that they won't be upset by my copying this here).

If you can't stay onboard, this at least gives you a chance to get to the stern.

Now were getting somewhere. I would like to test the above system with my 20 ft extra line system to see which one works better. Then put it on my solo sailboat.  It is kinda a redundancy- if the tether doesn't hold you in the boat, you have back up (sort of)
Cool.

Maybe this is one for "the Scoot".......and Youtube  ;D

TJIM,

Just curious as to how you transition from the Cockpit (6 foot line) to the Deck (3 foot line) - are you always clipped on? Not have a Sprayhood / Dodger?

Pics would be useful to visualise  ;D

My tether is like a 9" line with clips on both ends and a clip at the 3'/6' mark.  When I'm in the cockpit
I'm always clipped to my harness which has D rings at waist height with the clip at the 3'/6' mark.  The other end of the 6' piece of the tether is clipped to one of the two jack lines which go across the center
of the cockpit to the stern.  When I leave the cockpit to go forward, I clip the other end of the 3' element
to the jackline which runs on  the side of the mast that I want to go forward on and as soon as it is clipped, I unclip the 6' line from the jackline and clip that end to my harness D ring.  I have the option of
shifting to the 6' line at any time.  However I've never had to do it.  But if I ever need to do something besides change a sail or reef, I have the option.  I cannot fall off the boat with the 3' line attached.  one
other thing, I run my jacklines behind the upper horn on the 2 cleats which are mounted on each side of
the mast about a foot below the gooseneck.  I have to lift the jackline out from behind the upper horn to
get by the cleat.  It's no big deal, I would imagine even a Coastie could do it.  TJim

... and the smoke clears....

 

Quoteone
other thing, I run my jacklines behind the upper horn on the 2 cleats which are mounted on each side of
the mast about a foot below the gooseneck.  I have to lift the jackline out from behind the upper horn to
get by the cleat.  It's no big deal, I would imagine even a Coastie could do it.

;D

I've stayed out of this disscussion.....it's turned out like 'anchors'...lots of opinions  ;) SOooo...here's mine  :o  I have an eye bolted to the side of the bridge deck to clip onto while offshore . Then a flat jackline running forward on the windward side deck. I STRONGLY believe that while offshore ALL movement forward should be on hands/knees with one hand on a hold.You must truly KNOW your boat-where to grab-so it's instinctive. I don't feel there is anywhere near 'the perfect set-up' on a small boat...most are in some way flawed..that caution is by far the best safety feature and that if one does get knocked overboard...being tied in some fashion, no matter how difficult it is to get back aboard...is MUCH better than watching your boat go on without you. So..clipped on in cockpit...extreme caution going forward as if not tied...but tied at all times when solo.

Kinda like being tied to your burro for the ride back from the cantina ;)

That's really good advice Tim... I've needed that ride a few times hehehehe   TJem