hey all,
i just purchased a really beat up 26 ft clipper marine (swing keel). I want to make it seaworthy enough for long distance, coastal sailing. The inside is entirely gutted and the outside needs new paint and a couple of modifications (portholes in the quarter births, they feel very cramped). I want a lot of custom work done on the inside and cabin roof. Where do I start? Who do I talk to? What professionals do I need to contact? I live in the North East.
Lastly, does any one have a Clipper Marine 26 Manual?
Thanks!
Don't hane the manual but currently restoring a venture 242, that I hanve completely gutted. She is a swing keel also. PM me if you want talk. You are on about the best website there is for pointers and advice. Marc
Be careful of making the ports too large, as that can seriously weaken the cabintop. Welcome to Sailfar.net. Where abouts in the NOrtheast are you located? Also, are you going to do the work yourself or hire it out. IMHO, you should do the work yourself, since it is a lot more cost-effective, and if you do the work yourself, doing repairs and modifications to it later on comes much easier.
Marc I will second what adrift just seid. while it may seem daunting at first, most things really arent all that hard to do and tere is masses of information here and else where on the net .
FWIW, there's a CM specific site on the TSBB. trailersailor.com. Great site for information as well. I have a CM23 TK. Is your's a flush deck or dog house? My biggest fear with my CM is the pop top. I'd figure a way to secure it solid to the point that you could stand on it when it's upside down. You wouldn't want that pup popping open. I believe that if it hasn't been glassed over, there is a lockdown boat for the keel. If the boat is entirely gutted, I'd definately put in an extra bulkhead. CM's were built to a pricepoint, and workmanship usually leaves something to be desired. That said, I do like mine, and used it until I got the Gulf.
thanks for all the info guys and thanks for the welcome. i want to do a mix of my own work and professional. i have a pop top as well but i was hoping to trash it and create a 2.5 ft- 3 ft cabin roof, to create a more comfortable interior with standing room along the cabin isle. i do not like the pop top at all, it wreaks of day sailor on a boat that i want to take long distances and it is also extremely shaky, i think a fixed roof would be much more appealing and functional. at the same time, i have no idea how to go about that. i desperately want to find the manual as well.
as my plans are now, i need to strip the deck and hull, repair and paint, insulate interior walls, and i want to create a WC rather than an open head in the v birth.
then i have to do the ENTIRE interior as it is totally gutted. i am hoping for high energy independence and efficiency and plan to use wind and solar and two electric trolling motors
thoughts and tips are very welcome
First, making a 26' boat into one that has standing headroom may result in a really ugly boat with windage problems.
If standing headroom is really that important, you might be far better off starting with a different hull. A Cape Dory 25D comes to mind, since it has standing headroom throughout most of the cabin. No v-berth, but a really big head.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on February 12, 2009, 12:19:57 PM
First, making a 26' boat into one that has standing headroom may result in a really ugly boat with windage problems....
My Ariel has standing headroom. (no offence taken, I know you have previously gone on record with your admiration of the Ariel). ;) Just point out that 26' with headroom is not only possible, but can be very pleasing to the eye.
Standing headroom?...us old guys who don't like crawling around down below crave it, so I did it...not too bad looking. Just my humble opinion :)
The boat being already completely gutted is a boon - you have a blank canvas to start from, with less prep work before you start to see results! :)
Some thoughts: For your cabin trunk, you could use a thin luan plywood 1/4" or doorskin, and mock it up cheaply until you think it looks and feels "right", before getting into the actual construction.
Keeping in mind that you will be creating windage and affecting the Center of Gravity (and therefore the stability of the boat to some degree), however you make it you will want to keep it as light as possible, while still being very strong.
Leroy's Gulf has a nice looking proportional pilothouse on it, and it looks like that is about what Bob has done with his boat. Might be some inspiration there!
I have standing headroom in my Ariel, by about 3/4" of an inch, just in the middle. Which is where I stand, so it works out. Keep that in mind also - a nice curve in the overhead will allow quick drainage, is kind on the eyes, and can give you some structural strength as well.
Welcome aboard, and Grog! ;D
Thanks for all the pointers. Though head room is not necessarily essential to me (being short), I don't want to lack accommodation for my friends. I will definitely do a rough build of the cabin roof in light, inexpensive materials first. I have thought about the aesthetic appeal and I'm trying to figure out a design that would look natural to the boats original make.
On a separate note, I do want to add two port holes to each quarter birth, and one to each side of the V birth - how do I go about doing this? Has anyone done something like this before?
Lastly, I'm new to fiberglassing, and this will obviously be important, I'd appreciate any tips in this regard.
Thanks
Quote from: Publius on February 14, 2009, 04:16:47 AM
On a separate note, I do want to add two port holes to each quarter birth, and one to each side of the V birth - how do I go about doing this? Has anyone done something like this before?
Lastly, I'm new to fiberglassing, and this will obviously be important, I'd appreciate any tips in this regard.
Thanks
Fiberglassing skill can only come with practice, start small and work up to the big stuff. There is quite a bit of reading material available, Don Casey's "This Old Boat" is a good start.
Another good resource for fiberglassing info is the West Systems website. I would highly recommend using epoxy resin, whether it be West, System Three, MAS or another vendor, over vinylester or polyester resin, since the repairs and modifications will be stronger and the epoxy resin is a bit more forgiving in many ways. Most repairs will depend on secondary bonding strength, and epoxy is far stronger than either polyester or vinylester resin when it comes to secondary (adhesive) bond strength.
I completely agree, if you are repairing things like holes, etc, or tabbing new bulkheads in place. I use epoxy as a primary resin in the bulk of my work.
But polyester resins do still have a place. For example, when I did the reconstruction of the companionway on Tehani, I laid up a roving/matt/rovng schedule that wound up at roughly 1/4 inch thick or a bit over.. Polyester resins was my preferred stuff for that, Not that epoxy doesn't work well with matt- it does- but that in that lay up schedule the epoxy was simply not required and there was no sense spending the money for it
In this picture you can see the extent of the new glass work.
okay, wow. so i will definitely get reading. have any of you cut and created port holes? could any one give me a step by step on it?
i am going to start getting some pictures on here so you all can see what i am talking about. i appreciate all the help, this truly is a great forum
I really want to give you advise, however I can not determine form your posts what your experience is working with tools. Not that your experience would be a show stopper, however it would dictate what advice I would give you. I recently completed a total rebuild of a Columbia 30, however I have been in Construction all my life so I did not find it difficult, just a lot of work. Now that I am almost complete I purchased a Fein
multimaster tool kit. I wish I would have purchased it sooner. It makes making a controlled cut in fiberglass very easy, not fast but easy to control, especially when working near finished wiring. why dont you try the internet and see what info is available for the ports you would like to install? It would be easy then to answer your questions. I do not want to discourage you, cutting holes are easy, I am sure most people on this web site have done it, just tell me where do you want me to start??
Be aware that Dremel has come out with a tool very similar to the Fein multimaster that is considerably less expensive, and probably a better buy for most people.
well actually i have zero construction experience and zero boating experience haha. i am a quick learner and don't have a problem following instructions or thinking things out though? if that counts? in any case, i suppose any step by step would be welcome. what do i cut through the hull with? how large can i make the holes, how far apart are typical? diameter? shape? ill hopefully have pics up before the end of the week to better assess
A couple of pointers.
First, if you're going to install ports, it might be a good idea to use metal framed ones, as that would help restore some of the strength that will be lost by cutting a hole in the cabintop.
Second, the size of the ports really depends on what you want them for. Are these going to be deadports or opening ports. If the latter, the frames are even more important. If the former, are they just to give you some ability to see out from inside the cabin as many more modern designs can do.
Third, installing stringers along the top and bottom of the areas you're cutting may be a very good idea. Also, adding vertical stringers fore and aft of each opening may be required.
As I am not familiar with the specific boat in question, I'll have to ask whether the deck/cabintop are cored or solid fiberglass. If they are cored, you'll have to take steps to route out the core material and seal each of the openings with thickened epoxy to protect the core from water intrusion.
I would highly recommend you get Don Casey's This Old Boat and read it prior to proceeding. It has much of the information that you will need to know in one convenient book. :)
alright, thanks a ton adrift. basically they are to make the quarters and v birth feel less cramped, opening would be preferable for ventilation as well. It is cored, I am familiar with the procedure to epoxy strengthen cored decking and hull ( but not very familiar, i just understand the general principle).
I have heard that book mentioned several times, i will be getting it this weekend, maybe i could also get those pictures up by then too.
the plan is to have four ports aft ( two for each quarter birth) and one port on each side of the v birth. its not a priority, but painting the hull is so i figure better to do it prior to painting, then waste time and money on painting when it may get scratched or destroyed during port installation.
ill get pictures up asap. thanks for all the help
Publius
First a late welcome aboard
I have been following your questions and answerers for a few days and have not offers any advice, but would like to ask a question.
Where do you plan on adding ports for quarter and vee berth. Are you wanting to cut these in the cabin sides or are you thinking of actually putting them in the hull sides below deck level. There makes a world of difference where you put them.
Second it may not be my business but how much money and time are you willing to put into this project.
These need to be thought out before any answers can be given. IMHOP
mrb
I have too been reading this thread. The only advice I can give you, start small!! Don't jump right on it, epoxy work can be very frustrating, specially when everything gets sticky. Took me a loooong time to get the hand of it, and I probably lost it since I haven't laid a finger on my boat in a while. Start with a small project, like re-drilling any wholes for hardware, filling them up with epoxy, then drill then again and install the hardware. Like I said, it can be very very frustrating. Just my .02
Gus
I am new to this forum also.
Here is a copy of the Clipper manual.
I hope it helps.
John
Adriftatsea mentioned that dremel now makes a tool similar to the fein multimaster--that is true. Since feins exclusive rights have expired,Dremel,Porter Cable, Harbor Freight, all have models similar to the Fein,(there may be others that I am not aware of )I am sure for ocassional use they are all more cost effective than the Fein. Replacement blades for the Fein are also pricy. Quality stuff but not cheap
Hi Publius
Welcome to Sailfar
I just looked at the manual and it's very complete except for pictures.....so I googled Clipper 26 in the image search and found pics of two different Clipper 26 with ports. One has two, one each side of the hull just above the rubrail and the other has 3 per side also just below the rubrail. In both cases they are quite small, at a guess 10" L x 3" H. I would only put fixed ports there, not opening. As far as eliminating the poptop and replacing it with a real cabintop, I would keep it as low as possible and taper it into the deck forward to keep it from looking boxy. I hope the pics work.
sorry it took me so long to get back on here, my computer died. okay thanks so much for the manual and pictures. i actually found a friend who will be willing to help me with the hull work (he works with fibreglass daily).
i see the size of the ports you are talking about, this size would be functional for providing light however why should they not be able to be opened?
ive been thinking about switching to a cutter type rig, though the mast sits closer to the front than is optimal, thoughts?
I thought about perhaps lengthening the boom to increase main sail area to counter for front push or pull from an added front sail
what about a solent stay?
Cutter rig from a sloop? Why? More complications than benefits from my viewpoint.. Not that I don't like the cutter- makes huge sense for an offshore boat..
Adding a Solent Stay makes more sense on a sloop. Been thinking that for Tehani myself
I'd say that opening ports would be okay in the raised deck portion of the boat, but not below the sheer.
I wouldn't change it to a cutter rig. There really isn't that much advantage on a boat as small as yours. A solent stay for a storm jib would make sense and wouldn't necessarily require running backstays if setup properly.
As for opening ports, you really don't want them on the topsides, since when the boat is heeled they may end up underwater and are likely to leak then. If the new ports were on the cabintop, above the sheer, they could be made to open with far less risk or problems.
okay, i will definately be doing the solent stay option... thanks for the info
isn't there a way to insure a water tight seal on opening ports? The idea behind installing the ports is A. natural lighting B. ventilation (the quarter births may become quite stifling otherwise). If lighting will be the only benefit I would still install the ports, but ventilation would be a great bonus. If the ports are sealed tightly, is there really a risk to leakage/sinkage because of them?
Thanks for all the info guys, pictures are coming SOON!! Im just so busy :-(
If you spend enough you can get ports that will dog down and not leak, however the problem will be when someone doesn't know to or forgets to close ports. Generally happens eventually.
Congratulations on moving on with rebuild
Melvin
Grog to mitiempo for the photos.
Please see the other thread for my thoughts on the pop-top.
I agree that opening ports for the v-berth are unwise. Is there a deck hatch? That makes much more sense for letting light and air into the v-berth.
For the quarter-berths, consider an opening port into the cockpit. These are surprisingly useful providing ventilation and access from the cockpit to things stored on the longitudinal bulkheads of the berths. Some small boats have a small shelf below such ports specifically to store things you might want to reach (horn, flashlight) while keeping them dryer and in better shape than they would be in cockpit storage.
Why is painting the hull a priority? I would do it later, after all new holes are cut and fittings are dry-fit but not installed. Painting early feels like progress but leaves you having to be even more careful moving things around the boat.
If you will have a hanked-on jib I wouldn't bother with a Solent stay. If you plan for a roller-furling jib then a Solent stay does make more sense to allow you keep a smaller sail hanked on and bagged on deck. By definition, a Solent stay attaches to the mast very close to the main forestay and so should not drive you to use running backs. Incidentally, a fixed Solent stay makes tacking a pain, so you might want to plan on a removable stay.
auspicious, good point on the painting. I do just want to feel like I am making progress. The exterior hull paint shouldn't take any damage there is really nothing thats needs to be done with the hull aside from painting.
The ports you mentioned sound like an interesting alternative, I am going down to work on the boat Sunday so ill take a look at how that could flesh out.
thanks again all!!