Well, I payed the first installment on a new wardrobe, and we spent an hour today measuring everything in sight. We measured stuff I have no clue how it could possibly be used to calculate sail shape, and all the usual suspects, and a couple things for shits and grins.
For such a small boat, the winter costs are gonna kill me.
But I'm looking forward to all new sails for the first time in my sailing life. New styles of sails, too - a fully battened main for starters. No, I'm not sure it's the best cruising choice, but has some advantages I'm looking forward to trying out and some drawbacks I'm eyeing nervously. The high-clewed 135% clearly has the sailmaker chewing his whiskers in frustration; I suppose it's silly to get a genoa that isn't flat-out speed oriented, but I like to see under sails I expect may be up a lot on downwind legs. The 100% is cautious, rugged, boring.
And after these are delivered, I'm ordering an assym spinny that I've promised him I won't ask for anything special on, except that it be designed for a singlehander who tends to fly such longer than it's designed for...
QuoteFor such a small boat, the winter costs are gonna kill me.
Simple solution, go someplace there is no winter. :)
;D Got love Florida 8) And Gratz on the new sails may they last as long as you need them too. :)
I think you'll really enjoy the full batten main. With the extra roach (you did get a nice fat roach, right?) you'll reef earlier but ultimately sail both faster and more comfortably.
Look up when you tack to make sure the roach isn't hung up on the backstay.
::grin:: Well, I didn't request a big roachy shape, but it's coming from Quantum so I'm sort of expecting it. I just hope it isn't like one of my marina mates whose main laps the backstay and has developed a nice black line where it hits it while tacking.
The most interesting thing for me was talking with the guy who measured the boat about the inboard track. The Cape Dory 25D had an insanely optimistic inboard track, but placed too far forward to actually be of any use except, possibly, with a deck-sweeping 100% or smaller - otherwise pretty much zero foot control. He thought the 100% might just be able to take advantage of it, if it's cut nearly board flat for absolute upwind work.
I don't think that's what they plan on doing, but we'll be talking about that sometime rsn.
For now I'm just nervously dancing from one foot to the other in anticipation, absolutely no patience or pretense this was calm, cool, collected decision. It's emotional as heck, almost as much as when I first put money on the boat.
You'll love your new sails.
I didn't order a full-battened main when I had mine made--I was afraid that backstay on my 25D might interfere with tacking. If I had it to do over, I probably would go with full battens.
As for that inside track, I use for my storm/working jib (run the sheets inside the first stay and outside the other two), and it seems to work well. but for my genny (130%), I obviously use the outside track.
The 25D isn't the fastest boat around, but you'll be sailing when everybody else has run for cover.
--Joe
Interesting. Being the non performance oriented sailor I am (I thought my boat was fast until I was rudely disabused of that notion by some racers), I have actually considered going battenless with a somewhat hollow roach. I figured it would be easier to deal with, although I'm certain it would affect the performance.
My sails are in good shape at the moment, so I don't need to make this decision now.
I had Tehani's sails made batten less with a slightly hollow leach. I also had battenless sails on my Cross 35 Tri. I' ve never had any regrets on either boat. They set well and generate all the drive we could ask for.
We cruised the tri from Florida to the Chesapeake, then back down and thru the keys then over to here in Texas.
We've taken Tehani from Texas to Florida and return twice, including several days offshore. I've NEVER regretted having battenless sails, but I have in the past gotten really screwed up with battens.
Many serious cruising people ( including the Pardeys) cruise with battenless sails.
Good luck with your full battens, but personally I don't think that's the best setup for a cruising boat and I would never choose that option.
@Charlie
Two years ago when I ordered a new set of sails for Röde Orm, I started to discuss a battenless main with the sailmaker (after I read the Pardeys advice in the matter) The guy looked at me as if I just landed from Mars... So after some talking I bought a traditional one with short battens.
You prefer the battenless? Does it work fine to windward?
Best//Magnus
You judge ;)
We had a long discussion with Jeff at SailRite over how we were planning to use the boat, and what we wanted the sails to do.
They are 6.5 oz Contender super cruise cloth, triple stitched.
In the first pic, we were JUST under wind speeds to reef. Actually at the time the shot was taken we probably SHOULD have had a reef in.
The jib is our working jib which we use most of the time. It has a reef point built in to reef it to close to storm jib size. Around here the working jib is our go to sail. We carry a genoa for use over in the light air of the east coast and Florida
Charlie, do you have a pic of where the reef point is on your jib? Or one of it reefed?
not one of it reefed, but you can see the points in this shot
Thanks, LOL It's not like I haven't seen that shot one hundred times, I mean Duh!
There goes my dinghy being towed out the bay. Hi Charlie
Good thread.
I've considered battenless sails; for that matter I've had 'em too on other boats. My personal opinion is either battenless or fully-battened is best; those short battens always end up interfering with shape and becoming a maintenance hassle.
The benefits of fully-battened sails are ease of reefing, quieter, and sail shape control/longevity. And of course the extra sail area will be a benefit in light going, even though I'm not performance oriented. My expectation is the main will be easier to live with on a full-time basis, but will probably not last as long as a headboard-less and battenless sail. For me the trade off is worth it.
and there's the bottom line. If the trade off is worth it to you, then it's worth it. And I totally agree on the short battens. I've had sailmakers tell me repairing batten pockets is the bread and butter of the business. I know Laura has repaired them often.
Just be careful, if your boat wasn't designed with this type of sail in mind, it may lead to some sail balance problems, like lee helm, as this type of sail will generally shift the center of effort a bit forward.
Quote from: Godot on January 23, 2009, 02:21:05 PM
Interesting. Being the non performance oriented sailor I am (I thought my boat was fast until I was rudely disabused of that notion by some racers), I have actually considered going battenless with a somewhat hollow roach. I figured it would be easier to deal with, although I'm certain it would affect the performance.
My sails are in good shape at the moment, so I don't need to make this decision now.
as could going to a full batten sail-shifting COE aft a bit. In practice, we figure we lost about 3 sq feet of area, and our 1961, CCA era hull form doesn't seem to notice at all. She still steers with finger tip on the tiller, even with the rail down. Of course that's with the WJ- flying a 150 Genoa would change things a lot on helm balance.
Amgine:
Here's another possibility:
A North Sails representative, who addressed yesterday's winter meeting of the Cape Dory Association's Eastern Fleet, suggested that boats like Cape Dorys might want to consider a mainsail with full battens in the top two positions and traditional leech-only battens in the bottom slots.
That would give better shape to the top (better control of twisting), while letting you reef easily. Also, as he pointed out, full battens add weight to the sail and can stick when raising or lowering--unless you install a ballbearing-car system (lots of money!).
Anyway, it's something to consider.
I certainly don't regret having gone with traditional battens in my new main.
--Joe
Good thread!
I am still curious as to a battenless main. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone in 'my part of the world' who's got one... >:(
Before buying one (which would be after 25000 miles or so from now) I would really want to sail an hour or two on a vessel that is flying one.
As to a working jib with a reef point, I think it's a great idea... and I 've got one. That said, I've never yet in 5000 miles had to reef it. Used my storm jib twice in the same time span. The reefed WJ is still about twice the size of a storm jib on my boat.
In searching for a sailmaker, I'd recommend including Concord Point Sails and Rigging in your search. Contact Vince Townrow at 410-939-2196 (311 St. John Street, Havre de Grace, MD 21078). After getting sails from a number of places, I settled on Vince's work, and have used his work for the last 40 years. He's done anything from racing sails to heavy sails for Arctic expeditions, dinghies to square-riggers. He has a low advertising budget, but has a devoted and appreciative following. Most sailmakers consider everything you might want as an add-on for an additional charge. Vince has always held to the idea that there are certain things you should expect in a well-made sail---triple stitching, heavily reinforced stress points, leathered head-tack-and clew cringles---and they should therefore be included in the standard sail.
Oldrig: You'll be happy to learn that during discussions with the sail loft today he assured me the 100% jib is being cut to work exclusively on the inside track. Which is really cool. The sail will set well inside the spreaders, and the leech will come about 1" forward of the spreader, so it should theoretically be able to sheet in amazingly close to the wind. Of course I have no clue what the polars will look like - probably they'd show nothing inside of 50° is effective.
On the other hand, I now know I will *not* be getting roller bearing cars, but will be getting the next best thing. And I have a bazillion other pieces of hardware to figure out before the sails are delivered too. It was an enlightening and confusing meeting.
Word today from the sail loft that the new skirts are completed except waiting on some hardware for the battens and new hanks, both of which are expected within the week.
So now I'm getting even more impatient, and wishing the weather would give us a warming break!
The sails were done today!!
Okay, picking up new sails is kind of a weird experience. We unrolled all the sails, and I ooohed and aaaahed over all the details. I was stunned by the look of the new skirts, a nice café au lait color with much better stitching than I'd done on my kit sail jib. I oggled the hardware, asked questions about the reefs. I signed on the dotted line and paid the shot.
Now, 6 hours later, I'm kicking myself for not looking more closely at the batten hardware (I asked for luff cars, but I don't actually remember if, during my inspection, they had been installed!) I'm a little annoyed the reef patches were somewhat minimal - yes, I knew this sailmaker was race-oriented—all local lofts seem to be race-oriented—but I had specified long-distance cruising sails and I guess I just sort of assumed they'd plan on a reef band plus large patches and penants. What I got was pretty minimal patches and grommets—good enough for furling the reef, but not enough if the reef clew fails for some reason. I still need to purchase the new boom hardware to rig at least two of three reefs, plus pennants or a reefing line to sew through.
At the same time, I'm soooooo psyched about bending on this intense 4 full-length battens mainsail and new jibs (100% and 130% genoa) and putting them through their paces, and ordering the new assym we've been talking over for the past 6 months.... I think I may just move aboard in the next few weeks so I can take the boat out and practice every time there's a faint breeze on the Indian Arm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Arm)...
Congrats on the new threads for your boat. :) When can we see photos. :)
::Laugh!:: I didn't even think to bring the camera! I should have, because it was gale warning (but sunny!) at the boat, and back to the more usual rain, rain and storm, rain pattern today. I think the only chance I'll have to see the sails was that 15 minutes at the loft!
But I'll get the camera out and down to the boat at the first weather break. There looks like there may be a weather break on Friday or Saturday.
I did want to ask everyone here about a 'feature' of the main - a 'foot-pocket'. Instead of a cunningham/flattening reef, they used a stretchy panel which, when the outhaul is tautened, flattens to a horizontal wrinkle. The footrope apparently is cut long (or is also stretchy). I've never even heard of this technology, and being pretty conservative I'm kind of dubious, so I figured I'd ask the members of the forum if they've ever heard of, seen, or worked with this kind of rig?
That's a new one to me... now I really want to see photos. :)
Wow!
Sounds like a great idea, as long as the material they make the 'stretchy' pannel out of lasts over the long haul.
I would have to see more, but as you describe it I see great opportunity for developing lift in low winds, with no impact on flattening out in a blow.
Hope the design works out for you, I will look forward to hearing more.
Full batten, lots of roach? Does your 25D need or even want all that main?
My 25D needs/wants little main. My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.
I hope you and your 25D enjoy the new sails.
Quote from: rtbates on April 01, 2009, 04:34:14 PM
My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.
As will mine. I'm thinking loose-footed as well.
Quote from: rtbates on April 01, 2009, 04:34:14 PM
My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.
That's what mine is NOW. 3 rows of reef points, slightly hollow leech and zero battens- I'll never go back to a battened sail on a cruising boat.
Not roachy. In fact, there didn't seem to be much of any round, but I have to admit I was looking far more closely at the dog bone rings (never had those before) and the erector-like headboard. I'll have to look at the roach when I get around to taking pictures/bending on the main. Four full-length battens evenly spaced up the sail should mean quiet and shape control, but I don't know since I've never sailed with this kind of main before.
Three reefs; the maker said the third is actually the same area as a storm trysail would be for the 25D. I'm adding hardware to the boom to rig two reefs. I'm actually a bit indecisive about rigging all three all the time; I think I'll keep 1st and 2nd rigged, and if I put in reef #2 I will take the time then to rig #3 using the #1 reef line. Which means measuring the #1 line for the #3 reef. No, strike that, both the reef lines need to be able to be the #3 reef in a pinch.
I've had a couple sail maker friends, and was the program director for a yacht club which had a small fleet of keelboats heavily used by college students. I'm pretty aware of the additional chafe and damage caused by battens, and I expect to lose about 10% of the life expectancy of the sail compared to a battenless set up. If I were sailing a few weekends a month during the warmest months of the year that would be a couple years lost. But if I were cruising full time that would be about 6 months lost. I hope I can live with buying sails 6 months sooner than I otherwise would need to, in exchange for the benefits the battens can provide, but I'm very aware other people don't have the same values.
Amgine and Randy:
As another 25D owner, I'm really intrigued by the idea of that third reef point--although I've been out in some pretty heavy weather under two reefs. Keep us posted on how well it works.
I guess I'm too much of a fuddy-duddy to eliminate battens--although they do get in the way whenever you reef down.
--Joe
Why not setup a third reef line for the third reef???
Quote from: Oldrig on April 01, 2009, 07:32:21 PM
I guess I'm too much of a fuddy-duddy to eliminate battens--although they do get in the way whenever you reef down.
Originally a racing ploy to increase sail area. as the roach was not measured area. I've had sailmakers tell me that repairing torn batten pockets was "bread and butter" for them. I got rid of them long ago I had battenless sails ( main and mizzen ) on my Cross trimaran. By the way- one of the things the Pardeys advocate also.
One huge advantage is not having to come head to wind ( or close to that) to raise and lower sail- we commonly do that on whatever heading we are sailing, including downwind. With battens you run the risk of hanging them on shrouds, particularly when hoisting sailing downwind. And when cruising in out of the way places, sometimes you just plain don't have time or room to come head to wind to get sail up.
And don't say "well, I'll just crank the engine" If you're gonna cruise long distances, you BETTER be able to SAIL the boat- relying on the engine can get you in deep doodoo.
(stepping down off the soapbox now) ;D
Of course, your full battens might negate that "hanging up" problem- I've never sailed aboard a boat with full battens other than a Prindle 18 or a Chinese junk rig, so don't know.
Quote from: on April 01, 2009, 07:38:45 PM
Why not setup a third reef line for the third reef???
I keep my third reef point empty also. I figure that if and when I need it, I'll be able to rig it. But for day sailing, and the shorter cruises we are doing now, I see no need to have the chafe on the line.
Now if I were sailing offshore for a longer passage, I'd certainly reeve that line. But for coastal cruising, I figure I'll have plenty of warning. Of course I really hope to never need that third reef point :)
But I would most certainly NOT ever plan on using the line from a previous reef. Mine are color coded- red white and blue, for first, second, third. If I must take that third reef, I sure as H**L won't be wanting to remove the first one before taking it.
Third reef line:
Most boats will, literally, never use the third reef. I sure hope *I* never use it. So having the longest reef line constantly exposed to sun, chafe, and - most importantly in my opinion - swinging and chafing the stitching across the largest number of sail panels seems less than useful all of the time.
For my boom there just isn't enough real-estate to have three reefs on the starboard side. I consider it a safety issue to have the reefs on the same side of the mast as the main halyard; it seems dangerous to me to top up and drop the main on one side, then hop around to the other to haul in the reef, than hop back around to tension the halyard and release the topping lift, then back to coil down... I have plans at some point to bring everything back to the cockpit which would make this issue moot, but that's not what I have today.
For the same reason - safety by minimizing actions required - I figure moving the #1 reef to the #3 reef is less dangerous. I will have just put in the #2 reef, and while at the mast I can release the #1. Then at the boom end I untie the bitter end from the #1 strap, unreeve from the #1 clew and reeve through the #3, and down to the #3 strap on the boom. Then back to the mast to tension the halyard, coil down. I figure this is fewer steps than reeving a third line from the gooseneck aft.
When you're coastal cruising you should have plenty of time to avoid being surprised by weather. I don't know about you, but I've been regularly surprised while coasting, especially when the navigation is tricky and I have guests aboard and I'm trying to pull off something more than opening a can in the galley... On the other hand, when I've been off on my own for a while with the autopilot going I fall into pattern of listening to the weather and logging it along with my barometer readings and random notes about what I see (I move into the cockpit for the entire time I'm moving, going below mostly for food, gear, clothing additions/removal.) I hope I'll continue this trend, and be more aware of the weather offshore than nearshore.
Battens:
I'm trying this full-battened sail for the first time. I've had battenless sails, sails with short battens, and sails with more than one spar, but full-battens are new for me. Maybe they'll be better for me, maybe not. I'll find out. I have an open mind.
Re: reeving higher reef lines vs chafe.
Saw a heavy weather sailing video a few months back that had a good approach to this. On that boat, they kept the first reef line rigged all the time, with a very light messenger line reeved for the second reef.
When the first reef was tucked in, they used the messenger to pull the second reef line up to the second reef clew and were thus ready to tuck in that second reef in a flash - all without leaving the line in place all the time.
Seems like this approach could be easily adapted to the third reef as well.
Now THAT's a decent idea ;)
I have been very happy with my full batten main. I would probably not want to go back to partial battens, but love the shape, and control the battens give me. I also find it easier to stow the sail with full battens.
I have not seen wear, and most who have had long term full batten sails do not report problems with it either. The same in not true for the batten pockets in partial batten sails.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on April 01, 2009, 05:29:00 PM
Quote from: rtbates on April 01, 2009, 04:34:14 PM
My next main will be battenless with zip, zero, nada for a roach, with 3 reef points.
As will mine. I'm thinking loose-footed as well.
Loose footed for sure. I had my present main made loose footed from slugs.
Reefing: While a couple have already made their decisions, I'll still add a few words on reefing and echo CharlieJ's comment. I've unfortunately had many occasions to use the third reef, and you never want to release the first reef to reeve the line for the third. That allows the bunt and the sail itself to go slack. I assume you've also laced the first and second cringles to the boom, but even that will not hold the sail. The slack increases the chord and shape of the sail increasing heel and weather helm. Each reef should flatten the sail more, and each reef cringle should have a dedicated line to hold the respective outhaul and bunt in place. Once the sail has been reset and you're moving again, ease the sheet enough to give some slack and use some small stuff to lace the cringle to the boom, which also holds everything in place and reduces chafe and improves control and set. Also, you should never tie reefs in around the boom. It creates hard spots in the sail that will rip the sail. Reef points are always tied under the foot or boltrope, not the boom. Only the leach cringle for each panel is laced to the boom.
The reefs should be taken on alternate sides. First reef to starboard, second to port, and third to starboard. The advantage is the third reef then puts you on the starboard tack with right of way over other sail that may still be on a point of sail that enables them to carry on. This placement of the pennant tails also allows you to do all line and sail management from the windward and safer side of the sail and boom. Whether the halyard is on the same or opposite side of the mast as the reefing pennant is not (or should not be) an issue.
As a side point, when boats were really designed for and intended to go to sea, it used to be accepted that boats would be reefed onto the starboard tack under the worse conditions, and the naval architects followed that premise. If you look at the older designs, you'll notice that most of the heaviest stuff, stoves in particular, would be placed on the port or leeward side. When the stove unshipped, it just fell a few inches into the recess of the cabinetry rather than fly across the cabin with perhaps lethal consequences. Now that color coordination track lighting and interior design have taken precedence over seaworthiness, you obviously find stoves, heaters, and other heavy fixtures put whereever there's room.
For the best control and sail life for a cruiser, a loose-footed (reduces likelihood of damage from slatting in light air), roachless (eliminates battens) main with a reefing working jib or staysail are the best options. The next issues are keeping them covered, even for a lunch break, keeping them off the lower shrouds and other sources of chafe, putting chafe patches where lowers or spreader tips may rub mains or genoas, and replace stitching immediately when chafed. If stitching is in need of frequent maintenance, have the whole sail restitched by your sailmaker.
The idea of stbd-port-stbd reefs is mighty fine, until you've left the 2nd reef too late and the boat's laying over 30 deg under the jib and feathered main and you're trying to tuck in from both sides of the mast. Been there, done that, and no I won't admit how many times but the previous boat had one reef on each side and I think it's a not-well-thought out practice. (You don't know how watered down that sounds from what I'm actually thinking of it...) Maybe I'm just stupid and there's a nice easy way to do that I've never figured out.
It's possible to avoid lacing the reef cringle to the boom yet still have strong outhaul force from the reefing line. Place the bitter end fitting (I use a strap) either directly under or only slight abaft the position of the reef cringle when it is correctly drawn down to the boom, while having the turning cheek block near the boom end. nearly half of the 2:1 force will be applied to keeping the cringle down, while the remainder (minus friction but plus any additional mechanical advantage multiplier) will be hauling the new clew out and flattening the sail.
There's more to reducing the effects of chafe than getting rid of battens and patches. The second biggest chafer in my experience has been headboards, some of which are big enough they really should be called gaffs or lugs. Spreader tips need attention; boots after all are pretty much a specialized baggy wrinkle. I had a sail whose leachline had never been properly coiled down/cleated by the PO, and there was clearly visible chafe on the tabling from it blowing off in the wind. (It never caused a problem, but it goes to show what even a tiny line can do rubbing up against the sail over time.) Chafe is why I make a circuit of the deck every watch, so I can put in the log I did it and found nothing loose or wearing or making noise... Actually, being honest, I don't tend to do that religiously in bad weather which is probably when it's most necessary.
For those of you with loose-footed mains, do you have a lot of foot roach? I had a laced-on gaffer main I cut loose, and the foot had rather a lot of rounding to induce shape. With a tightish foot going ddw that roach seemed to be a noticeable improvement over the lacing even if the foot of the sail was much flatter. The new main has a footrope in a slot, but it's going to have slugs in a heartbeat if the penants under the boom ruin the set of the sail.
In my experience, the loose foot had zero effect on slatting in light going. If anything it seemed to create greater force in the pop at the tack and clew, so greater damage. But having two spars instead of just one and both of them with vangs helped quiet the sail; I hope four battens will do as well.
Just received this email from someone who has been reading this thread. This lady who's name shall remain unwritten has several thousand blue water miles behind her, including 2 or 3 trips through the Panama Canal and several offshore deliveries from New York to the US Virgins, and also the other way, with stops in Bermuda.. Here's the email I got-
"Just for the record, we had full battens on the W-32 (nearly new sail already on when XXX bought the boat) and they were miserable for cruising, IMO.
I hate having to head up to deal with the sails but you almost had to or else major friction developed between the battcars and the battens were then at an angle to them. We did raise/lower/reef on a beam reach, but it was a pain. I could not re-raise the sail after tucking in a reef, even with the winch, but had to wake XXX up from his off-watch or else suffer with a wrong sail. Frustrating.
Of course coming off a beam reach (say, on watch at night) meant taking off the perfectly-set windvane and changing heading, which changed the motion and woke up the off-watch. Then you'd have to go through the whole tweaking-the-wind-vane thing again.
In light air and leftover seas the battens would flop in a painfully, horribly noisy way.
Also, the battens caught on stuff, sometimes dangerously, when trying to reef or etc.
The longest batten is a pain to stow a spare for.
The sail did drop nicely into the lazy jacks, and I suppose the shape was good, but that was not worth it IMO.
I know you basically know all this, but I saw on Sailfar where you mentioned some of these faults with partial battens but then said you hadn't had a fully battened sail."
I have got very little experience from sailing with full-battened mainsails.
Tried it a few times in other people's boats and I agree 100% with the comments from Charlie's female friend.
It's a nuisance. Ok for Tuesday night racers and weekendsailors I guess but I would never consider it on my boat.
Period. thanks for sharing her story with us, Charlie!
::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.
You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.
Different ships, different long splices.
Amgine,
Enjoy your full batten sails, as I have said I love mine. I reserve my right to change my mind later,
as should we all. :)
I bet there are many, many, folks who will say we are nuts to think our boats are suitable for anything other then day sailing anyway...
;)
Quote from: Amgine on April 04, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.
You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.
I've never sailed with full battens, and until Craig's post recently, had never read of anyone stating a positive CRUISING experience with one.
I look forward to your comments as you use this sail.
The only comment I can make at this point is that battenless just strikes me a more KISS. I remain open to being convinced otherwise...
You might want to consider that a higher percentage of catamarans have full-battened mains, if you consider them legitimate 'cruisers'. I'll be sure to keep SF abreast of how things are going - especially with how the sailmaker replies to my complaint about the batt cars.
With any luck there will be at least a tiny amount of breeze tomorrow, so I'll be able to at least try them under sail.
Quote from: Amgine on April 04, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
I don't know who you're trying to convince of what.
Not trying to CONVINCE anyone of anything in particular- just presenting info that I received and laying out my personal experiences with cruising sails, based on a good many miles of cruising.
I hope your sails satisfy you completely, as mine have me.
Quote from: Amgine on April 04, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
::Shrug:: I did my research, I paid my money, and now I get to learn my lessons. I don't know who you're trying to convince of what. I do know I have almost certainly put more effort into learning about these sails than you have, but you're welcome to your opinions just as I developed mine from study and interviews with people using them.
You might note that full-battened sails have developed rather rapidly in the past 30 years, and it's now pretty much agreed that a sewn-on batten car is not ideal. An articulating rigid fitting is the preferred choice, and a roller batt car the best choice (but requires a fair amount of retrofitting hardware if your mast was not designed for it.) There's a lot more that has been improved as well, but the fitting is primary.
True, but for racing, not cruising in my humble opinion.... tell me what the benefit really is on a cruising boat - except for 0,1 knot more of boat speed...*yawning* no offense, to each his own :-\
You know, not one of the people I talked to mentioned speed as a benefit. Quiet, ease of sail handling, better trim in light conditions... those were the things cruisers talked about. My opinion is full-length battens let cruisers be lazy: not as precise about trim, reef later or leave a reef in longer, less work to lower the sail, etc. One boat (the only catamaran) claimed battens let him point higher, but I've read arguments both ways on that one so I didn't consider it in my decision-making.
I guess if you don't think having noisy slatting sails, sails popping in and out in slop, constant tweaking to get the sail setting right in light airs (and still not getting the sail to stay filled), clawing down an over-powered sail, and wrestling to get it furled onto the boom are negatives on a cruising boat, then you won't agree there are any benefits to full-length battens.
I agree on the light air performance (which equals higher boat speed in my mind) but I am far from convinsed about the rest...
I certainly do hope you'll be satisfied with'em though, as everything else, i'ts a trade-off.
My focus is not at easy handling as such but at simplicity and safety.
All the best, and please let us know how it is going. :)
Thanks guys, this is a fascinating discussion.
I have a couple of observations, none of which negate what has already been said.
Full battens: When I ordered a new main for my Cape Dory 25D, my local sailmaker advised against full battens, saying that they were most useful on sails that have extra full roaches (not possible with the backstay of the Cape Dory). Since then, I've sailed on a larger Cape Dory that has two full battens and two partial. The owner says it makes it easier to reef--but he adds that he has to use lazy jacks to lower his sail.
Batten pockets: Charlie's comment is probably right-on. Whenever I take my main in for its annual service, most of the bucks end up going into batten-pocket repairs. This seems to be the real moneymaker for my neighbor the sailmaker.
Reefing: Yep, be sure to tie those reef points around the bunt, not around the boom. (Although, if you've got a bolt rope for at the foot, you have not choice.
FWIW, both of my reef points are on the starboard side of the boom, so I can have the right of way while reefing. I'm not sure how I'd handle that third reef point if I get it put in--but I would definitely not want to have the reefing line rigged on a permanent basis.
--Joe
Well, I only had a couple of hours on the water with the sails this morning, but so far I'm very pleased with them. Nothing happened that would have allowed a comparison of battened vs. short battened, although I did get to try a bit of shape tweaking because the winds were quite light to begin with.
I got out with the wind just nosing over 3 kts, with the main and 130% up. Ghosted around a bit, then headed downwind as the breeze was slowly increasing. The genoa luff turns out to be really really long; I don't think there's more than a couple inches left on the halyard. The luff is also a bit stretchier than I expected. The sailmaker did warn me that it's a very sensitive sail, and the luff should be left less taut than with the previous genny. Learning time on the jib halyard, and I noticed the leech seemed to have a slight hook despite the leech line being completely slacked off; may have been due to the lead, and I played around with that as well.
The main seemed flatter than necessary for the light winds, so I made Stooy's life miserable (the auto pilot) by lower the main and trying to tension up the battens for more belly. I now had three *different* curves, because I apparently tensioned only two of the four battens the same amount. So I lowered again, and got it right this time. The foot shelf really does fold away if the outhaul is tensioned. The foot rope is not attached to either the luff or the leech, and the clearly stretchier and very small panel formed a nice horizontal wrinkle which brought the lower edge of the next panel down and almost flat to the boom - however this was in light air and I'm still not making bets on how it will act in medium to heavy air.
The gps speed off the wind was about what I thought the wind speed was, faster than I would have predicted since there was about a quarter knot of falling tide against. But the wind had been rising a bit, so when I turned into it I guessed the apparent to be close to 8-10 kts, a bit higher in gusts. And then we managed hull speed (keeping in mind we were getting the .25 kt lift) going upwind, not hard on the wind but sheets started a bit to get the best speed I could.
It was marvelous. New sails really did make a big difference in how quickly the boat accelerated, and how little heel developed even when a bit over-sheeted.
Of course I spent all the time trying to tweak this and that, released the battens again to see what happened then (no change I could tell from gps or inclination gauge, but visibly less camber.) But we were back to the marina in three boards, and despite really really wanting to skip out on things and spend the rest of the day (week!) playing with sails I dropped the sails and headed back to the slip.
Yes, I have lots of pictures of the sails though I didn't take any while I was actually sailing today. I'll be getting the film developed this week, hopefully will upload some images by Friday or Monday. So far, nothing to say about full battens vs. none/short; more things to play with for sail trim, but no conclusive evidence that it's been specifically helpful, nor any noticeable drawbacks. (I did hoist the main about 30 deg. off the wind to see if there'd be a noticeable increase in friction, but I didn't notice any. Will try a beam hoist next time.)
Quote from: Amgine on April 14, 2009, 07:57:16 PM
Well, I only had a couple of hours on the water with the sails this morning, but so far I'm very pleased with them. Nothing happened that would have allowed a comparison of battened vs. short battened, although I did get to try a bit of shape tweaking because the winds were quite light to begin with.
I got out with the wind just nosing over 3 kts, with the main and 130% up. Ghosted around a bit, then headed downwind as the breeze was slowly increasing. The genoa luff turns out to be really really long; I don't think there's more than a couple inches left on the halyard. The luff is also a bit stretchier than I expected. The sailmaker did warn me that it's a very sensitive sail, and the luff should be left less taut than with the previous genny. Learning time on the jib halyard, and I noticed the leech seemed to have a slight hook despite the leech line being completely slacked off; may have been due to the lead, and I played around with that as well.
The main seemed flatter than necessary for the light winds, so I made Stooy's life miserable (the auto pilot) by lower the main and trying to tension up the battens for more belly. I now had three *different* curves, because I apparently tensioned only two of the four battens the same amount. So I lowered again, and got it right this time. The foot shelf really does fold away if the outhaul is tensioned. The foot rope is not attached to either the luff or the leech, and the clearly stretchier and very small panel formed a nice horizontal wrinkle which brought the lower edge of the next panel down and almost flat to the boom - however this was in light air and I'm still not making bets on how it will act in medium to heavy air.
The gps speed off the wind was about what I thought the wind speed was, faster than I would have predicted since there was about a quarter knot of falling tide against. But the wind had been rising a bit, so when I turned into it I guessed the apparent to be close to 8-10 kts, a bit higher in gusts. And then we managed hull speed (keeping in mind we were getting the .25 kt lift) going upwind, not hard on the wind but sheets started a bit to get the best speed I could.
It was marvelous. New sails really did make a big difference in how quickly the boat accelerated, and how little heel developed even when a bit over-sheeted.
Of course I spent all the time trying to tweak this and that, released the battens again to see what happened then (no change I could tell from gps or inclination gauge, but visibly less camber.) But we were back to the marina in three boards, and despite really really wanting to skip out on things and spend the rest of the day (week!) playing with sails I dropped the sails and headed back to the slip.
Yes, I have lots of pictures of the sails though I didn't take any while I was actually sailing today. I'll be getting the film developed this week, hopefully will upload some images by Friday or Monday. So far, nothing to say about full battens vs. none/short; more things to play with for sail trim, but no conclusive evidence that it's been specifically helpful, nor any noticeable drawbacks. (I did hoist the main about 30 deg. off the wind to see if there'd be a noticeable increase in friction, but I didn't notice any. Will try a beam hoist next time.)
Many Thankx for sharing! Always interesting to hear of different experiences like this. grog o you! ;)
Amgine - a request, for when you next take pics: a closeup of the batten cars your sailmaker used?
Have fun with the new sails!
Ah... the argument. The sailmaker didn't use batten cars, even though I'd requested a fixed mount; instead the batten ends are simply sewn to a slide via nylon webbing. This is one of several fairly important (to me) details we'd discussed, twice, which somehow failed to be added to the work order, and didn't get done. None of which I was charged for, but I really did want them done.
So, I asked him to order the correct cars, and I'll bring the sail in as soon as they come in and pay for them.
I asked that exactly 11 days ago. In 10 days I'm going to be calling another sailmaker to find out how much it will cost to get the batt cars and have them installed. Then I'll call my sailmaker back and ask where the batt car order is. If, as I suspect, this detail too has not been acted on then I will be changing sail makers.
I'll be happy to take pics of both the current slide arrangement and the eventual bat cars. (My films were not ready on Thursday, and I'm in another country for the weekend, but hopefully they'll be ready when I get back on Monday.)
Okay CapnK: I did a cheesy write-up of the mainsail with pictures on the blog (http://vanislecirc.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/the-long-delayed-post-about-the-sails/). It has a bad picture of the foot panel, and a good picture of the current batten cars.
The plan at the moment is to replace the batten cars with the ones I asked for, but since schedules have been moved up my boat budget isn't going to have enough for that this year. And it won't be at the current sail loft; they've still not replied after 21 days.
When the sun breaks out again I'll be doing a photo shoot of the jibs. Will try to get a more timely write up of that then.