WHo does what for backup when the motor dies.
Does anyone carry oars and/or extra an outboard or just sail plan on sailing engineless?
There is a sailboats should be engineless philosophy that does do that. ( no motor)
I was a reader of the engineless sailing board for quite awhile. I picked up enough tips to save my Bacon (veggie bacon) a couple of times when the engine died and had to sail into my slip.
I would never take out my inboard motor though even though it is said that a boat sails better without them and just keep oars aboard for those time when there is no wind to get back into a slip or can not sail into a slip.
what do you do?
Philosophically, I really like the idea of being totally engineless; after all, the old square riggers sailed the world without engine. The other side of the coin is that they had very large crews to do things like warp, tow and sweep.
I've been "engineless" several times without intention. Engines fail. Therefore, I ultimately rely on sailing, with the outboard as a backup (not the other way around). To that end, I almost alway sails OFF the dock, and very often, sail back in as well. Granted, I don't have to do a lot of close quarters maneuvering to get to the dock.
I was sailing in Calibogue Sound (Hilton Head Island) on a J-24 a few years ago and talked to the owner about going back to the marina under sail alone. He himself was willing enough to do it, but he said the Harbor Master (or Marina Owner) would not like that at all.
So, part of practical seamanship is prudence. Sometimes, running the iron jib is the prudent thing to do.
When my Atomic IV packed it in (crank snapped in two - and it would still start) I was on a cruise several days away from home. To make it through a canal with two bridges, I was towed. After that, I figured on sailing her home. To begin with all was fine. Later, when the wind died we spent an entire night as bug chum. Here in the Great Lakes we have this 1/2" flies with 3" teeth that love to bite your ankles - and there are millions of them. 15 hours later and desperate to stop feeding the world we lashed the Walker Bay to the port side and mounted the 2 hp outboard engine to her. 6 hours and 4 tanks of fuel later we managed to pull into the next closest marina - we hit a top speed of 2.2 kts.
The next day my friends back at our home port got one of our power boating friends to bring an 8 hp Honda outboard, a donated kicker mount and necessary tools, tanks and lines. That outboard worked for the rest of the season and the mount is still there - though I am planning to remove it this spring.
9
Many of those old engineless square riggers wound up on the rocks too, when the wind quit. Was just reading last night, a book titled "The Twilight of Sailing Ships" and they listed many instances where ships were lost, with horrible lost of life, from just that cause. In the later times, when steam was really taking over, almost ALL of those pure sailing vessels were towed into and out of ports by steam tugs, because it was no longer feasible for them to lay for days, sometimes weeks, waiting for wind.
On our boat, the engine IS the back up source of power. Even with the quiet 4 stroke outboard we have,, we both prefer to handle the boat under sail as much as possible. In fact, Laura absolutely HATES to run the thing.
One thing I always harp on. DO NOT think of that engine as a "safety " thing- think of it as a convenience because one day it'll fail you. If you have wind, those sails won't, even if a harbor master doesn't like it. If you don't have wind, have an anchor ready. Learn to handle that boat under sail, using anchors as kedges if needed. Then use the motor to make things easier, but not as a last resort type thing.
Having said that, I have several friends who sail engineless using oars and or a Yuloh. Surprising what you can do once you learn to scull :)
'sailboats should be powerless'....click your heels together 3 times....close your eyes and repeat that to yourself 3 times ....the next time you are drifting powerless off a lee shore...".and that goes for your little dog toto too"
My personal approach was to ALWAYS use sail unless absolutely necessary... this included sailing into my slip and backing under sail out of the slip... I'd have the trusty Atomic IV running just in case, but would practice "sail only" procedures whenever possible. This was on a 28' Morgan (Not O/I) which was very easy to back under sail, etc... but I'm a paranoid sailor. I used the engine VERY seldom other than having it running in neutral while doing close quarters work (there if I need it). In fact, in 23 months of ownership, using the boat a minimum of 3x a week (lived on the water in Key Largo), I put less than 10 gallons of gas (total) in the boat.
This paid off one morning after a weekend up at Nest Key. I was anchored and went to start the engine to get home. It turns out the alternator belt had broken the day before and the battery (from the anchor lights) had gone during the night. I was able to sail 3 miles home in 4 hours (LIGHT wind) around my jetty and into my slip, all because I had practiced when I had the engine to back me up.
Also- I had a bracket on the stern for an outboard, and even had a nice Honda four stroke outboard in my shop, but didn't carry it around for backup because my bracket was my "swim ladder".
btw- Of course, when I flawlessly docked under sail with no engine... the usual crowd that hangs out at the dock was NOT there for once to witness my amazing skills.... typical.
Quote from: Adam on January 16, 2006, 01:09:27 PM
btw- Of course, when I flawlessly docked under sail with no engine... the usual crowd that hangs out at the dock was NOT there for once to witness my amazing skills.... typical.
;D
Of course, the converse is also usually true. Once while coming in with the outboard, with a 22 kt breeze blowing off the dock, I managed to foul the prop with a dock line. The OB died, and I drifted downwind, only to crash stem-first into the downwind dock.
There was a host of witnesses, all of them giving 'good advice' on coming into a dock under power.
::)
QuoteThere was a host of witnesses, all of them giving 'good advice' on coming into a dock under power.
You can always tell the
'Real Sailors'... They are the one's on the dock who keep their mouth shut when something like that is going on... ;D
It's easy to say it's a sailboat for Christ sake or I just sail in or I use a skull or sweep. Forget it. When the poop hits the fan and your in a 9 knot current in the narrows or your drifting into the ferry lanes it's time to call Boat US tow service.
Having had the opportunity to test a few ideas I ended up with a diesel inboard upgrading from a 10HP OB on the last boat. Sails of course but also a sculling oar. For the dinghy oars and a 50lb thrust saltwater MinnTonka. No more gas on board for me. However my draft is 3'7" and on the older boat was 3' even and that made a difference on where I could anchor. Closer in means less need for outboards on the dinghy.
M.
Have you thought about a sculling oar? I am making a break down oar from and old broken fiberglass mast a friend gave me. In light air, it would give me move me some (in a light boat like mine, 3+ kts might be possible, but 2 is more likely) and in the odd event of waves without wind, keep the nose in the right direction. Downside is that you can't do anything else while sculling. It could also function as an emergency rudder and emergency spar.
EDIT - this was moved over from anopther thread about prepping a boat for The Scoot, reviving the old thread instead of making a new one (I practice I agree with, BTW, even though some forums discourage it; I like this forum better all the time :) ).
Sculling oars are great to have on a sailboat! I made mine from a 12' cedar 2x4 riped to 2" wide. I notched the end for a 1x6 cedar blade x 2' long. Glued and screwed, it was plenty strong. It proved invaluable for anchoring, short term propulsion, emergency steering, and most of all; it helped me get unstuck from three groundings. I keep it just inside the stanchions on the port side of my 24 footer.
My boat only weighs about 1500# with me, my kids and gear aboard and drafts under 1' with the keel/CB up, so sculling should be incredibly practical for me, moreso perhaps than a keel boat. I don't have to stay in the channel and can eddy hop to go against the current (answering the point someone raised earlier in this thread).
On the one I am making, I am using an old fiberglass mast section (the top, so it tapers and has a cap at the small end) and a paddle that will slip into the end of it and get pinned in place. I am cutting two "collars" for the paddle shaft so it will fit snugly in the fiberglass tube and apply fairly even pressure on it and none right at the lip (which I will add a layer of glass tape to anyway). I will plug the tube right above the point where the paddle comes to so it will (hopefully) float. The paddle will still be a usable paddle when it is out of the tube; on a boat the size of mine, a little paddle is actually useful sometimes and if I anchor somewhere with a lot of tide action, like Lookout, I may take a little inflatable raft to shore even though I have a shallow draft (it is still more than zero).
I do have a decent motor from a power/dependability (uh oh; probably just jinxed myself) perspective, but it is a 5HP 2 stroke pure kicker - no tranny. It's an older one that was recently rebuilt. So while it runs well, it is a bit loud and doesn't like to sit still (it suits me well :) ) so it isn't always the best choice for slow speed maneuvers like waiting for a turn at the ramp or dock.
I am also making a support for it that will attach to a cleat on the transom. Basically a small piece of wood with a U cut in it. I want to be able to lift it out quickly if i need to use it to push off from the front or side. I may get it done this weekend, but possibly not until next. I will post pics then.
But if someone has some other considerations before I do it, please let me know ASAP...
I HATE motors. Or perhaps they hate me. Whenever I've truly wanted that darn beast to work for me, it wouldn't.
My first sail in Godot, there was way too much wind and I couldn't reef down far enough. I was tacking through 180°, slowly drifting downwind, and couldn't do much about it. I couldn't even convince the boat to sneak into a semi protected area. I figure, I'll fire up the outboard and at least scooch into that little cove a mile or so away. The waves where too big, motor jumped in and out of the water, then died. It wouldn't start until the next morning (just as well).
Then the day when I ended up in a serious rigging situation with sheets and halyards and sails and lunch and my half finished novel, and everything streaming everywhere while I was rapidly drifting onto a rocky shore, I fired up the outboard, and it immediately got tangled in all those trailing lines.
In both cases, my seamanship failed first, the motor second. Just when I needed it most to bail me out of trouble. Oddly, once I was resigned to not being able to rely on the monster, I was able to work my way out of trouble without it. It's a darn shame that I can't seem to learn anything the easy way.
Mostly, I need the stupid thing to get in and out of my marina (they always seem to put the small boats in the tricky slips), and to get home in time for work when the wind dies (oh, how I wish that concern would go away).
Stupid, noisy, smelly, unreliable things.
My backup plan is to sail. Or anchor. Or drift. Or, if things are really becoming an issue, call TowBoatUS. I don't like that last choice. Not at all. Maybe I should look into a sculling oar, too.
Dropping an anchor and stopping the boat is often a solution that is overlooked. Beats drifting into the rocks or going aground IMHO.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 25, 2008, 04:05:30 PM
Dropping an anchor and stopping the boat is often a solution that is overlooked. Beats drifting into the rocks or going aground IMHO.
I just did a big head slap "DUH!" the other day when someone pointed out to me that I need to have mine at the ready and teach my kids about throwing it in as I often sail with just me and them. I mostly sail the Pamlico and it has a soft sand/mud bottom that is never far away.
Back in the early 80s I was anchored in The Bight of Norman Island in the BVI, well before the proliferation of mooring balls down there. A beautiful wooden sloop between 30 and 35 feet long was anchored nearby. In the morning, sitting in the cockpit with a cup of coffee (spiked - I was on vacation), an elderly gentlemen rustled about on that boat for a bit. I cranked the anchor up on a manual windlass and sculled the boat out of The Bight to the point he was clear of the rocks at the entrance. There he raised sail and disappeared around the point.
If I close my eyes I can still picture that.
Having an anchor ready to run at ALL times is a basic tenet of mine. I rig ALL my boats so at least one BIG anchor can be dropped almost instantly.
It's saved me from getting strained through a drawbridge on a hard running tide once when the engine ( diesel) quit. Also kept me out of difficulty on one other not so serious occasion.
So I set the boat up so I can do that in seconds.
I actually had the boat set up so I could do it in seconds before, but it involved knowing where it was, pulling it out, attaching and dropping. I could do it in 30 seconds and have on a few occasions. I have become convinced that's not good enough. Instead of me doing it it in 30 seconds, the new goal is to have a panicy 8 year old do it in 10. :)
Good thoughts. This, along with the need/concern for having a spare rudder of some sort, means I'll put some thought into making a blade that I can attach to my spinnaker pole. Onboard small boats, a multi-purpose item is well worth having!
If my boat were large enough that I could travel with a windsurfer, the mast for that would make a good sculling shaft. It sounds like that is what you have, Opti.
Capn' K - I think it is from a Laser, but I am not sure. It was around 20' as I have 2 pieces that are each around 10'. The bottom piece has damage around the base and the top piece snapped off above the joint to the bottom (my buddy is pretty agressive when racing dinghies).
Adam - I absolutely hated my last motor and it seemed to feel the same way about me. I am not sure which of us started it. I avoided using it, so it wasn't that surprising that the times I was forced into trying that the gas in the lines had turned to sludge.
CJ - Do you have an anchor mounted so it can be deployed from near the center of the boat? That's what I would really like to rig up more elegantly than just having it lying in a crate in the cockpit with a line to the bow that I try to keep outside the bow rail but out of the water.
well, I had a reply all typed in, then it told me the upload folder was full, try again and destroyed my post. I'll repost tomorrow morning.
What's with " the upload folder is full"???
That's odd, CJ, and I think Frank had a similar situation the other day? Or was that you? Anyway, I increased the size of the attachments folder, and also looked through it for anomalies. Found a few recent avatar files that were exceptionally large and/or had odd sizes, maybe they were/that was causing a glitch of some sort...
Let's see if it works properly now. :)
Does navigate back give you the text back on this site? I will use this post to test...
EDIT - Yes, it does. If you type in a post then from the next screen click the back button, it will bring yu back and give you the text back. If something is hosed and you can't post it, at least you can copy and paste to NotePad or something so you don't have to retype.
For long posts I usually type them up in word or notepad or something since I often can't do them in one sitting anyway. Cut and paste and no trouble.
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 25, 2008, 07:32:37 PM
Having an anchor ready to run at ALL times is a basic tenet of mine. I rig ALL my boats so at least one BIG anchor can be dropped almost instantly.
I definitely agree with the wisdom of having an anchor ready to go at all times *inshore*. If you keep your anchor on a roller you should lash it in place offshore (heading out on the Scoot for example).
Quote from: CapnK on July 25, 2008, 10:35:24 PM
This, along with the need/concern for having a spare rudder of some sort, means I'll put some thought into making a blade that I can attach to my spinnaker pole.
I've heard about doing this a number of times. I've also heard from one person who actually tried it who said it was a nightmare to manage and didn't steer very well. Since I have no first-hand knowledge either way I would suggest you go out and test it before counting on it.
I've locked my rudder a few times and tried steering with sail trim. It's pretty sloppy and stressful but works okay. I've never been able to tack doing that.
sail fast, dave
OK- a retry-
On Tehani the anchor is in a roller on the bow, held back and down ( for now) with a chain hook on the snubber, cleated to a bow cleat. I'm looking for a chain lock to install for permanent by the way. Also looking for a proper chain stopper to drop the chain into while hauling in.
Offshore a lashing goes around the anchor and bow roller setup, and a plug goes into the deck pipe to stop water getting in..
I can go to the bow and rip out 50 or 60 feet of chain, cleat the chain to a bow cleat and dump that anchor in about 30 seconds. Less if I'm REALLY in a hurry.
On our little tri that we sailed in the Tex 200 I cleated the anchor rode, carried a goodly amount of rode back UNDER the cross arms and carried the anchor in the cockpit right next to the helm.
There was a fairly recent thread over on TSBB about anchoring from the cockpit ( with the rode attached to the bow) when single handed. I'll see if I can find that later today and post a link.
Here's a pic of Tehani's bow setup. Those are 10 inch cleats by the way- she came stock with a single 6 inch one.
Ah but- IF you get that message that says - "there has been an error- the upload folder is full" it won't LET you do things like that ;D
Once that error message appears, you are stuck cause you can't repost that, even if you change it. SO you at that point CAN"T paste it into word pad.
And as a certain bard once said- "and therein lies the rub" ;D
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 26, 2008, 12:04:35 PM
Ah but- IF you get that message that says - "there has been an error- the upload folder is full" it won't LET you do things like that ;D
Once that error message appears, you are stuck cause you can't repost that, even if you change it. SO you at that point CAN"T paste it into word pad.
And as a certain bard once said- "and therein lies the rub" ;D
I am not sure you understand. In IE (is that what you use?) when I click the back arrow to go to the previously viewed page, it takes me back to the original composition page with the text there. If there was an error, then no, I can't submit it, but I can copy and paste it into somewhere else to hold it so I don't have to retype it. The behavior I see on web sites is that either that never works (some pages don't retain text because of the controls they use or some specific settings) or it always works. A lot of times it will work even if you aren't connected anymore (it's cached). I only tested it here once and it wasn't after an error, but it did work; I went back to the composition screen and the text was there. So I assume that would always be the case, but I could be wrong.
Haven't used IE in years- we use Firefox. I'd have to look to see if IE was even still ON this computer ;D
Yes but IF you go back one more page to try something different, then try going forward, your message is lost. I should have saved it up front when I got the error, but I was in a rush and wanted to get to a new post message page.
And apparently the problem is solved since I was able to post. I think it was the picture, not the text, because the text wasn't that long.
I've read of folks making do with cabinet doors, table tops, things like that, but their results were mostly less than stellar. Neal Petersen made do with a bucket. :) But it seems a more-proper and effective blade wouldn't be hard to stow, and could come in real handy.
I've got a blade of sorts I made for my last boat, a set of NACA foiled, foam core sammich construction pieces. Intended to be one for each side of a plate metal rudder. Might be able to fashion something out of that which would do the trick...
And you can bet I'd test it out beforehand. That'd be fun. :) And teach some stuff that'd be handy to know about if the time came for it to be put to use...
Quote from: CapnK on July 27, 2008, 01:54:36 AM
Neal Petersen made do with a bucket.
I've done the bucket thing on a Capri 22. It worked pretty well. I haven't tried it on Auspicious yet.