sailFar.net

How are you planing to handle the power use underway?

eg: night running, needs...
running lights, some cablin light/reading, music, computer or...

I spoke with a guy in the next slip. He has a 31ft hunter, sailed from Hawaii to Mainland. Says he uses, 3 batteries. One is for the motor starting etc. the others are for power, he uses a tranfromer to convert power for goodies. THe solar panel (50watts) charges the system during day hours. I do not remember how many hours he can get out of a full charge.

I'm thinking, changing all running lights to LED's, less power draw. Adding a 50watt solar panel. Change the 12volt cablin lights also to LED. They now have these new stickup bright LED lights that currently cost $20.00. ( wal-mart & some auto stores) They looked handly. Batteries can be replaced, easy, and easy to store many extras. I remember something about 100 hrs at full bightness. 

Currently I have dual battery set-up. I need to run some tests on how long one lasts, once I figure in power consumption.

I was also thinking of keeping a small honda generator onboard, which could be as a backup to charge batteries & run things instead of the A4

Main cabin lighting: Oil lamp...then how much fuel will I need for a 3-6 wk trip needs to be figured. I figure on being out 3-4 weeks at a time.

To solve the charging issue, I am considering a towed generator.

Towed Generator Info (http://www.onpassage.com/Alternative_Energy/Water_towed_generators.htm)

I particularly like Ampair's Aquair 100 since it can be converted to a wind unit at anchor or in port.

Aquair 100 (http://www.ampair.com/homepages/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=9:9)

Everything I've read of sailors using a towed gen. has been very positive.

Anyone here have experience with one?

Interesting I was just reading the logs of a couple of racers that used one or one like it the whole time they were out during some race, NZ to around the Cape. I can find the link if anyone is interested. It has been interesting rading . They used the generator to power a laptop on which they keep in touch on a daily bases. They were on a 40 ft boat, two ole salts in their 60's

try this to read about the tow generator:

http://www.berrimilla.com/log

or just www.berrimilla.com

Triska my Alberg 29 has three Batterys on board. She regularly only uses two. One is stowed for emergency. I also have a Honda 1000 gen set (gas) draw back is having to stow gas somewhere. I use on batt for House and One for Start.

(Hic!)

I don't know about you guys but I prefer my generator on board!

It's much easier to start it that way rather than have to swim out to the dinghy and somehow get on board and start it and plug in the extension cord and all that!

<slurring> just thinking (hic!)

Why would you want to tow your genset?  Wouldn't that hurt the thing?  I mean, how do you start it underwater?  ???

QuoteWhy would you want to tow your genset?  Wouldn't that hurt the thing?  I mean, how do you start it underwater?

  It' smore quiet, an it runns cooler that way......

some folks.  ::)








;D

Quote from: Jack Tar on December 21, 2005, 06:37:39 PM
Triska my Alberg 29 has three Batterys on board. She regularly only uses two. One is stowed for emergency. I also have a Honda 1000 gen set (gas) draw back is having to stow gas somewhere. I use on batt for House and One for Start.

What do you run on your "house" system and how long?

Yeah there is the gas storage thing and if you took it from the tank,  your running supply drops.
Perhaps a couple of 5gal tanks straped to the stern, like off road jeeps.

Led lighting is definitely a boon to the small boat cruiser.  If you see the thread I started in 'bits & gear" on the anchor light, they have some other good cabin lighting.  Much can be done with a little reading though and you can save a lot of money by making your own.  I don't care for led light for everyday use as the pale while light is depressing, but I understand if you add some colored led's to the mix that improved things considerably.

The incandescent 'screw in' light bulbs that came installed aboard 'Faith' were 50w 12v bulbs.  P=IxE so 4.16a!  and there were 4 of them!  Tuning on a single lamp was enough to drop the voltage to the point that the inverter would trip off line!~


  A useful tool (for me) has been working up an energy budget.  Not so much as a budget (it is very hard to quantify how much the solar panel will produce in practice, with uncertain weather, etc) but it is a good exercise to figure out where your current is flowing to and evaluate what you really can 'afford' in terms or energy.

  I had a line on a really cheap power windlass.  I passed it up as I figured using it (even for the few minutes it would be used) might mean I would only be on oil light for a while, or forced to run the outboard to power the depth sounder if somewhere it was needed.

  Likewise the navonics chart plotter I came across.  It did not really fit my style of navigation..... and the 1.5a draw sealed the deal.

If anyone is interested in running their lap top. I have a nice little step up transformer I use. Draw is very small. Less than 1.5 amps. It boost voltage up to what ever is selected on it. I use 14.5V DC for the lap top. I can use E charts. Do work on the puter and or watch a movie. Hook the GPS to the lap top and using electronic charts it just like an expensive chart ploter.

JacK T, I like it! being a computer head. I want my computer to work whereever I am. more so on a passage. I would not take my "good" laptop, but a cheapo one would be perfect onboard.

More details please, purchase location, cost...

Bought the addaptor on E bay.

Auto DC Power regulated addaptor   Model SDR-70W

THIS IS A POWERFUL 70W  CAR ADAPTOR WHICH WILL POWER UP YOUR LAPTOP FROM YOUR CAR'S CIGARETTE LIGHTER JACK. THIS ADAPTOR IS BRAND NEW IN FACTORY SEALED BOX, AND IT IS GUARANTEED NOT TO BE DOA, NO ADDITIONAL WARRANTY IS AVAILABLE THROUGH US. THERE MIGHT BE FACTORY WARRANTY LEFT ON IT, BUT WE CAN'T GUARANTEE. THIS ADAPTOR WORKS WITH ALMOST ANY LAPTOP WHICH TAKES A CIRCULAR ROUND SHAPED PLUG. AND THE GOOD THING IS IT HAS MULTI ADAPTORS TO WORK WITH DIFFERENT LAPTOPS AND OTHER ELECTRONIC DEVICES. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO REVERSE THE POLARITY IF YOU NEED HELP YOU CAN CONTACT ME AND I WILL WALK YOU THROUGH STEP BY STEP TO SET THIS UP PROPERLY.  REVERSE POLARITY OR WRONG VOLTAGE COULD DAMAGE YOUR LAPTOP

INPUT VOLTAGE IS DC 11V TO 14V

OUTPUT VOLTAGE IS DC 15V, 16V, 18V, 19V, 20V  @ 3.5A           22V, 24V   70W

COMPATIBLE LAPTOPS

SONY VAIO ,   IBM THINKPAD ,   COMPAQ PRESARIO AND ARMADA ,   TOSHIBA SATELLITE AND TECRA ,   HITACHI ,   HP OMNIBOOK ,   FUJITSU LIFE BOOK ,   PROSTAR ,   AND MANY OTHER MODELS WHICH TAKE ROUND CIRCULAR TIP. IT WILL NOT WORK WITH THOSE LAPTOPS WHICH TAKE SQUARE SHAPED TIPS SUCH AS DELL LATITUDE, IBM THINKPAD 760 ETC


$18 to $25 . Comes with enough adaptors to fit almost any lap top

Hmm cool!  Cheaper than making my own!

Thanks Jack!  I'll go looking for one now!

QuoteIT IS VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO REVERSE THE POLARITY IF YOU NEED HELP YOU CAN CONTACT ME AND I WILL WALK YOU THROUGH STEP BY STEP TO SET THIS UP PROPERLY.  REVERSE POLARITY OR WRONG VOLTAGE COULD DAMAGE YOUR LAPTOP

I know they make these things reversable for a reason, but has anyone ever seen anything that had the positive runinng to the outter ring?

Would seem not to make sense, given the risk of shorting when used in a car.

Some do, most don't.

If you look at your power brick or wall wart, it should indicate what the polarity is.

"The Plan" is to get about a 65 watt solar panel to mount on the stern. I would also like to replace most of the cabin lights with LEDs. As far as other electronics go, I try to keep them to a minimum. We do have a VHF, GPS, depth sounder and a DVD player so we can watch a movie now and then. Of course there's the rechargeable batteries for handheld stuff which we can do with solar now and the cell phone which will charge off the boats 12v system.

Not sure I even want a computer on the boat. Once I'm "out there" I'm thinking I might not really WANT to communicate with the outside world all that much.

"Not sure I even want a computer on the boat. Once I'm "out there" I'm thinking I might not really WANT to communicate with the outside world all that much."

Ah yes, I understand that. For me though, I am an artist, the computer is one of my tools/instrments, recording music, digital photgraphy, webdesign, graphic art...
I can write, record the music, do the art work,  record whale and bird talk, write lyrics,  mix everything and burn a CD out in the middle of the Pacific. Then upload a mp3 copy to anyplace once in port. The added fun to that is sending a email to ths board saying, hey hey hey, I am in a Fiji Bay  8)

Now that to me is sweet.

I sailed a total of 15,000 miles most of it single handed.basically to hawaii from so.cal 3 times and back twice.most of the time I generated power with a "sea generator" or more aptly called hydro-electric power.absolutely the way to go.I had to wear gloves when pulling in the tow line but I am toying with the idea of using the lower unit from a small outboard and putting the generator itself inplace of the power head.I am also considering putting portable diesel generator where the old a-4 was ,and using the same idea putting an a-c electric motor inplace of a gasoline powerhead ontop of an outboard lower unit.in this fashion I will be diesel -electric powered.the motor from a 10 inch table saw is about 3 hp,and when there is no wind this will suffice.

Hi Jack Tar, I am just now getting back into sailing and also am a professor for a couple online universities.  I can live were ever there is internet.  How can I get internet while at sea?  Most marinas here on the Great Lakes have internet service, but I'd like to be able to anchor in a harbor and teach classes.  Thanks.

Ok, So the question that came to mind after tinkering around on "zen" yesterday. Sea-generator: How is that better than just a plain old windvane? more volts/watts?
Someone said something about a sea-generator that could covert to a windvane while at the marina, ok, why not have it all the time then. Again is it a matter of output?


Internet:
As far as that goes from mid -ocean. I hear it can be done via $atilite, or a couple of ISP co. however again $$, or some special marine band. I figure by the time I'm really to go anywhere far they will have a dependable reasonable priced way to do that.
There is some world-wide wireless network eg: astound or earthlink ( I think) you can access, but that only if there is a access portal where you are.

Quote from: Zen on December 24, 2005, 09:18:26 PM
Ok, So the question that came to mind after tinkering around on "zen" yesterday. Sea-generator: How is that better than just a plain old windvane? more volts/watts?
Someone said something about a sea-generator that could covert to a windvane while at the marina, ok, why not have it all the time then. Again is it a matter of output?

For the towed gen to work the boat must be moving through the water.  This makes it next to useless at anchor/dock.  If you have some pretty serious tidal current, you COULD use it, but deployment would be a hassel (you'd have to retrieve and reset each time the current reverses).  So, the wind gen is better when the boat is still.

A wind gen will certainly work at sea, also.  The towed gen shines for downwind passage making.  If you take a look

here (http://www.ampair.com/homepages/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=9:9)

you can see the charging curves for the Aquair 100 in both towed and wind turbine configurations.  From that page:

Quote
WATER DRIVE VERSUS WIND DRIVE
Sailing downwind at 6 knots, the Aquair 100 Water Drive generates approx. 5 amps continuous charge. To obtain 5 amps of generation from the wind driven version while underway, the wind speed required is typically 30 knots (24 knots plus 6 knots boat speed).

This 5 amps x 24 hour = 120 amp-hours per day for a long downwind passage.  That's pretty hefty.

Contrast that with a 50 W solar panel.  Many recommend only figuring 3-4 hours per day of peak charging with a solar panel, so that gets 16 amp-hours (for a 12 V system).   

The beauty of the dual use system in my mind is that you can have the best of both worlds; towed when it is best, wind when it is best.

Zen,

I'm with Jack in that I tow a little 1000w Honda generator.  It uses very little fuel which I also keep in the dinghy.  When we are the only ones in an anchorage I give it a push and its nice an quiet down below.  Other times respect the generator off time rule.  It has come in handy a couple of times when I forgot to switch over the perko and woke up to not enough juice to start the engine.  A 1K generator will run our T.V./VCR, Inside Lights, Microwave and a small heater.  The heater and microwave cannot be running at the same time. Keep in mind we don't travel more than a couple hundred miles and at the most six, seven days per outing.

---------------------------------------------------------

This morning it looked so nice out I thought I'd leave it out.

S/V "Tina Marie" Cal 2-27 (Featured Boat Lats & Atts Oct. 05)

Hey you guys ever heard of Ham Radio. Yes computer data can be sent via this method. The data is converted back and forth at each end. I read a little about it but not having a requirement havent checked it out.

You can also go $atilite.

Zen on the house batt I run cabin lights, Water pump, computor, CD/radio. I just watch my consumption of power. It would be nice to if you had a state of charge monitor for the system.

Quote from: Jack Tar on December 31, 2005, 02:01:33 PM
It would be nice to if you had a state of charge monitor for the system.

Ferris Power Products (http://www.hamiltonferris.com/) sells several system monitors, but they can be a bit pricey.

For a single bank, the Link 10 ($199 in my 2001 catalog) displays:

• DC amps currently being used
• DC Volts of the batts
• Amp-hours removed from batts
• Time until batt is discharged (assuming the present current draw I'm sure)

The Link 20 is the same for two banks ($310 in 2001 catalog).

They also have a Multi-Battery Condition Monitor, $69 in 2001, that gives analog display for up to 3 banks.

Besides that, there are charts that show pole voltages for different charge states, but I think these are unreliable and require a pretty precise volt meter (digital to 2 or three decimal places, iirc).

Finally, you can measure charge state using a hydrometer to measure the density of the electrolyte.  Probably not convenient for general use, mentioned here only for completeness.

A fellow I met at a marina showed me his hydro generator set up which seemd very simple and elegant. He simply had the boat prop attached to a generator with a belt/pully. I don't recall the details but a simple arrangement could be rigged to loosen the belt when not needed.

oded kishony

My SO is a Ham Operator and he gets wireless internet through www.winlink.org (http://www.winlink.org). We were once on a camping trip in West-By-God-Virginia and had e-mail and was able to send digital pics to friends. I don't know if this would work for ya'll, but may be worth checking out?

Quote from: Kailyst on January 03, 2006, 11:01:28 AM
My SO is a Ham Operator and he gets wireless internet through www.winlink.org (http://www.winlink.org). We were once on a camping trip in West-By-God-Virginia and had e-mail and was able to send digital pics to friends. I don't know if this would work for ya'll, but may be worth checking out?

  SOmething to check out, at the risk of driving this thread OT, is SCAMP.  This is the next, latest, thing that will allow email/data transfer across HAM without a TNC, but just by taking the audio streight into the sound card on your laptop.

 

SSB radio can be used to get e-mail while in remote areas. 

As for remote power generation.

Towed Water Generators are excellent for long passages, but do add a significant drag to the boat in light air, not much of a problem in heavier winds.

Wind Generators are quite good for windy anchorages and harbors, but can be a danger to crew if not properly positioned and setup.  They are not as useful on downwind passages, but can be used on upwind passages fairly well, provided they are located to not get in the way of the sails.  On the smaller boats on this forum, they can be a bit difficult to setup/position without being a hazard.

Solar Panels:  Probably your best option, especially in the lower latitudes, where the sun is stronger.  Remember, when you are sizing solar panels, that in many areas they only really provide five hours of power, not 24 hours, so you need to size them with that in mind.

Gas or Diesel Powered Generators:  Generally, the last resort in my opinion, especially on smaller boats.  They add a lot of weight by themselves and then adding sufficient fuel to run them for extended periods of time adds significant weight and ongoing costs.

Computers can be a good thing, especially if you have them setup to do multiple things, like passage planning, weather fax, chartplotting, e-mail, and such.  The real issues with computers are sensitivity to water, corrosion, bad power and their relatively high energy demands.   In many new, more modern harbors and marinas, you can get broadband internet access via a WiFi card, and along the coasts of more civilized areas, you can often use cellular networks to get a slower, but fairly reliable connection.  One thing that can help computers is frequent use, as the heat of their operation can help drive out the moisture, and help keep the computer from suffering corrosion problems.

As a network engineer, I'll be happy to answer any "geeky" questions via PM.  :D

Good advice on the computers. I had figured on when not in use, keeping it in a ziplock bag with some of those moisture absorb things.

I know many of you are advocates of solar power on your boats.  Given an unlimited budget, it seems one could spend as much (or more) on panels and regulating systems as on sails.

Harbor Freight has a set of 3 panels (12" x 36" each) that they claim will output 45 watts.  Price is approx. $200. 

Does anyone have any experience with these?  Any thoughts?

It sounds like a great deal.  I mean, a REALLY great deal.  Which worries me.

Not all manufacturers rate their panels the same way.  50 Watts from Manufacturer 'A' may be 30 Watts from Manufacturer 'B'.  Harbor Freight doesn't mention the manufacturer.

Not all panels are designed to handle the rigours of being on a working sail boat.  There are waterproofness issues, impact resistant issues, heat sensitivity issues, wiring issues, fastening issues, and who knows what other issues.  Some of their ads (of more expensive panels) mention use on RV's, cars, and boats.  This one doesn't.  Now I don't know; but it would concern me if I where to buy it.

Now, these panels may be perfectly fine, especially if you are not sailing far abroad; but the catalog entry makes me nervous.  I personally would probably spend a bit more on something of a known quantity.  If I had a cabin out in the woods someplace, I might be more tempted to try these out.  Heck, I might buy two or three sets.  It kind of sounds like what they are intended for, anyhow.

If your cabin was in the woods, it would be overshadowed too much of the time to make solar power workable.

;D

For a couple hundred bucks you can get a fairly nice panel if you shop the hippie, alt energy type places.

Here is a good tree hugger, get off the grid site.

Link to altenergystore.com section on solar panels (http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Electric-Panels/c541/)

  I like that site allot, as it also provides as much info on Solar energy you might want.  Other 'marine' sites offer much higher prices, and try to sell you things you don't need like charge controllers (needed only for high current systems, you can read more on the link I sent you.

    A quick glance at the 1-50w link on the site above tells me the prices have gone up.  I got my 80w panel from them maybe 2 years ago, and paid less then $200.

  I think it was listed in their closeout section (Phillips / BP panel, very high quality).

Quote from: s/v Faith on December 11, 2006, 07:50:35 PM

    A quick glance at the 1-50w link on the site above tells me the prices have gone up. 

True, but efficiencies are finally going up again, too.  While this has not yet filtered down the consumer yet, I read just last week that some solar panels are hitting 30% now.  If that number continues to rise, it will soon be economically stupid to NOT implement solar on a large scale (low conversion efficiency is one of the big thing holding back wide scale adoption).

My point is maybe -- MAYBE -- some of that increase in price is going to the research needed to get the efficiency higher.

John - I saw a story that quoted a 40% efficiency rating. Now, how long til that trickles down to us is a matter of conjecture. It seems that the solar industry has plenty of snake oil salesmen in it. :)

OC - I have a 50 watt 'designed for boats' panel on my boat, and I plan to supplement it with a wind generator at some point in time. It came with a smart charger as a set, and retail was around $500-550 IIRC. Re: the HF panels: I think that I would want to spend that money on a panel(s) which are more of a known quantity and quality. Some HF stuff is pretty good, but sometimes it's kind of dicey, in my experience. What is HF's return policy? That said: For less than the price of my 50 watt panel, you could get 90 watts worth, and they just might be good... :D

Just my $0.02.

Plus a lil Grog. :)

Quote from: CapnK on December 11, 2006, 10:09:48 PM

John - I saw a story that quoted a 40% efficiency rating.

Could very well have been the same article and I just remembered wrong.  It was only a week ago or so. 

Just be careful.  A lot of the panels are not designed for marine use, and will have corrosion issues after a very short period of time.   Also,  you might want to check on the warrranty and the type of crystal they use.   The last thing to find out is how many cells are in the panels.  The better ones have enough cells to make up for some shading...the cheaper ones don't—and won't produce sufficient voltage to charge the batteries if they're shaded at all. 

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on December 11, 2006, 11:23:27 PM.....The last thing to find out is how many cells are in the panels.  The better ones have enough cells to make up for some shading...the cheaper ones don't—and won't produce sufficient voltage to charge the batteries if they're shaded at all. 

  Actually, it is not dependant on the number of cells.  It has move to do with the construction of the panel.  In most panels, a shaded cell not only fails to produce current but becomes a resistive load.  Some panels try to decrease this effect with the addition of another PN junction (like a diode) between cells, to protect against this reverse current flow.  Many do not engineer this additional failure point into their panels, electing not to accept the slight decrease in efficiency it brings (max current is decreased).

  This is important, because shading on panels does not just decrease their efficiency but does so to a greater extent then you might expect.  If you shade 30% of a panel it might decrease the current produced by 75% or more. 

  It depends on the manufactures choices in engineering the panel, not so much on the number of cells.

In answer to your original question.

Quote from: Ol' Coot on December 11, 2006, 01:48:50 PM....Harbor Freight has a set of 3 panels (12" x 36" each) that they claim will output 45 watts.  Price is approx. $200. 

Does anyone have any experience with these?  Any thoughts?

  Looking at the Harbor freight web site, I am thinking this is the set you are looking at;

Link to 45w solar panel array on HF (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90599)

(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/90500-90599/90599.gif)

Quote from link;

QuoteUse the sun's power to run TVs, lights, computers and recharge 12VDC batteries!
Three 15 watt solar panels give you plenty of clean, quiet energy-- no fuel required
Power center is completely weatherproof and works under all light conditions
3, 6, 9, 12 volt DC adapter outlets
Easy-to-read LED charge indicator
Includes mounting hardware, light, 12V socket and battery clamps
Requires 12 volt storage battery and 300 watt power inverter (not included).
Maximum current, 3000 mA. 15 watts max per panel.
Peak voltage: 23.57 volts open current. Panel dimensions: 12.40'' x 36.42'' x 0.75''; Weight: 9.7 lbs.

  It seems like it might be hard to mount 3 12"x36" panels on a small boat, but even if you only used 2 of them it is gonna help with the energy budget some.  Nice capability to have even if not under way, not having to bring shore power aboard to maintain the battery.  For the price, I might give it a shot.  Sure would be nice to have more info on the panels, or at least be able to look at them before you bought them....

  I will be near the one in Pensacola next month, I could see if they have them instock and take a look for you (for what that would be worth).   Does HF have any stores near you? 

   

Quote from: Fortis on December 11, 2006, 07:06:36 PM
If your cabin was in the woods, it would be overshadowed too much of the time to make solar power workable.

;D

(http://webcdi.com/files/active/0/1925_small.gif)

From what I understand, there are two types of panels--multicrysteline and amorphous silicon.

Each have pros and cons.

Amorphous silicon panels (like those) need to be larger for the same power. A 50 W multicrysteline panel might be 2 sq ft.

Finding a place to mount them may be a problem

Anyway, here is a useful site if you order things fom Harbor Freight

http://www.billt.com/harborfreight.htm

Actually, there are three types of panels. 

Thin film or amorphous silicon have the lowest efficiency, but can be made in semi-rigid and flexible forms, including ones that can be worked on.  These are often the easiest to install.

Polycrystalline and monocrystalline panels are more efficient, but must be made in a rigid form, usually with aluminum frames and glass covers. 

One thing that affects all of the solar panels is temperature.  As the temperature goes up, their efficiency goes down.  If you're planning on mounting polycrystalline or monocrystalline panels, make sure that some air can get behind the panels to help keep them cool.

I've been toying with the idea of mounting a solar panel on my forward hatch.

The Ariel has the same hatch. Its about 21 1/4" X 15 1/2" (550 X 400 mm). The hatch has some crown to it, so a flexible panel would be best. But, they produce much less power and I haven't found the right size.

Semi-rigid panels bend about 3-5%. Maybe not enough.

If I get a rigid panel, I could install it with corner brackets so it doesn't snag a line.

Maybe too ugly

This is what I found so far

About $180
http://www.kyocerasolar.com/pdf/specsheets/ks20.pdf

http://www.mrsolar.com/page/MSOS/PROD/wattsort/SC-24-12V

Cheap, but not much power

http://www.mrsolar.com/page/MSOS/PROD/wattsort/US-11

Some expensive offerings

http://tinyurl.com/18r

http://www.sunware.de/US/Products/Solar%20Modules/Data%20sheets/DatenSW_3063_US.htm


(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3371&stc=1&d=1150124745)

(Edit: Added tinyurl. :) )

Don't know but.....

Man that seahood is a nice peice of work.   ;D

Has anyone here got experience with the flexible panels. I mean those with grommets in the corners, to be lashed at the guardrails for instance. And when not in use, stowed under deck. Since they are not on a fixed mounting they could be placed where they would get the most sunshine...

Sounds good or ,...?  My long-time idols, the Pardeys have got one these days. They got high-tech at last  ;)

Quote from: maxiSwede on February 28, 2007, 06:19:42 PM
Has anyone here got experience with the flexible panels. I mean those with grommets in the corners, to be lashed at the guardrails for instance. And when not in use, stowed under deck. Since they are not on a fixed mounting they could be placed where they would get the most sunshine...

Sounds good or ,...?  My long-time idols, the Pardeys have got one these days. They got high-tech at last  ;)

I have one.  I don't think they are really all that effective at charging a battery as the wattage is really low.  Heck, with the panel I have you don't even need a charge controller.  Also, I found mine was light enough that when a decent breeze came across the deck it would want to fly.  Four lines to four separate mountings kept it from going far; but it made a racket every time it slammed back into the deck.

Mine, if I remember right is something like 5 watts.  Let's see, average five hours charge time on a twelve volt system... 5hr * 5w/12v = 2.08 amp hours a day.  Maybe more down south, less up north.  Maybe it's enough to drive an LED anchor light and cover the self discharge of a battery.  Maybe.  They are strong, though.  You can use the panel for a welcome mat if you really want.  And they are easy to store.

I understand they have some bigger panels which would probably be better.  A 20 watt panel (http://store.altenergystore.com/Solar-Electric-Panels/Flexible-Rollable-Solar-Panels/Iowa-Thin-Film-Technologies-Power-Film-20W12V-Thin-Film-Solar-P/p706/) is 12"x73" (305 x 1858mm) which is pretty big and might be a handfull on deck (especially when sailing).  A 20 watt Duralite Solar Panel (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C49497&id=600715) is 24.5"x20" (or a little more than half the size of the flexible panel) for comparison.  Or, for similar dimensions to the Duralite (20.7" x 25.7") you could get a Kyocera 43 watt panel (http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C49497&id=599784) which with 5 hours of sunshine could give you almost 18 amp-hours (and for only $259.99 at Defender). 

But then, mounting a rigid flat panel isn't always easy on a boat, which tend not to have many flat surfaces available.  Oh, well.  BTW, I'm taking the advertised specs at their word.  I'm sure there is some loss in these systems and I understand different manufacturers use different methods to determine their rating.  What do I know?

Personally I feel the roll up panels are fine to keep the batteries from self discharging and to extend the battery life slightly on a several day cruise.  Sailfar-ther than that, though, and they probably aren't the best.

You definitely have to watch how big the panels are compared to how much power they put out.  You will run out of places to mount them, so you might as well get the most space efficient panels you can get.

This system looks good:

http://www.svguenevere.com/2006/gear/solar.html

(http://www.svguenevere.com/2006/gear/sp04.jpg)

(http://www.svguenevere.com/2006/gear/sp05.jpg)

we have a Unisolar flexible panel. 32 watts and 2 amps. Does all we need for the moment. We have it mounted on the top of our bimini and it stays there all the time.

It supplied all the juice we needed on a 33 day cruise this past May and June including three nights offshore with running lights lit, and radio on full time.. But then we are pretty frugal on our electrical usage other wise..

Your mileage may vary ;D

You can see our mounting in this picture-
(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1172507102.jpg)

Thanks to all of you nice sailfar-guys for the info.

It´s funny, here in Sweden I have yet not seen any chandler selling the flexible panels. In the UK they sell a 30W unit 1440x 5xx  millmeters for a little more than 400 € (530 USD) Which I guess could cover my needs when at the hook.
(pretty much the same as Charlie´s I guess)

When sailing, I am thinkiing of an aquaGen (water generator; not sure of the name in English) that gives about 1 Amp/knot boat speed.

I have never in 30 years of sailing felt the need for more electricity than the occassional 30 min of motoring has supplied. In spite of my KISS philosophy though, I have fallen for the temptation of a lap-top with charts and nav.programs and the posiibily of recieving weather fax´s.

Got it REALLY cheap from a guy who just came home from a circumnavigation.
;D
The downside is the da--n laptop is thirsty on amphours, and so the need for some ¨home-made¨ electricity on board the ship.

Yeah, right I know: You buy one ¨nice-to-have¨ gadget and ends up needing two more, which then leads you to the need on more of... :(

What can I say to my defence... even the Pardeys have it  8) 8)  uhrmm

The water generators really are only good when you're making a long passage... on shorter ones, they tend to be a bit of a pain... One company makes a dual-use water/air generator—which is nice because the air generator can be used at anchor, and the water generator can be used while making passages.

Personally, I like solar panels since they're relatively simple to setup, and relatively low-maintenance overall.  The two I got for Pretty Gee are rather large 80W panels and work in even lower light conditions than I was expecting.  One panel will put out almost 19 amps mid-day during the spring... which was rather surprising when I found out...as it cost me a few 10 and 15 amp fuses before I realized what was going on. 

I think, given my relatively modest electrical needs, that I can be completely independent in terms of electricity as long as I get a sunny day every other day or so... I think I'd have to beef up the battery banks if I wanted to go longer than that without good sun. 

Two 80 W panels!?  Don´t they cover the entire deck? They must be huge...  ???

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 01, 2007, 07:48:28 AM

One panel will put out almost 19 amps mid-day during the spring...

That's only 4V (80 W / 19 amp). Are you sure things are wired correctly?

4V won't charge a battery.  Even at 'parade rest,' a batt is over 10 V.  To charge a battery properly, you need ballpark 14 V (depending on the batt).  Most solar panels I've seen have specs for around 16 V.  At 16V, your 80W panel should be outputting around 5 amp.

I'm obviously very confused about how an 80 W panel is delivering 19 amps.

My bad...just checked the e-mail invoice and the manufacturer has them rated as 140W panels, not 80W.  :D

I believe the actual output at the time was about 18.3 A at 13.5 Volts (according to the display on the charge controller) at the time I did that particular test.... so I think they're actually quite conservatively rated.  I'd have to check my boat book for the details of the test.

Yes, the panels are rather large—28" x 60" x 2" or so each.  But the system I am using to mount them keeps them out of the way and fairly well oriented, but not perfectly aligned with the sun.  They're mounted on rails that mount between the cockpit pulpit and the ama. 

Dan,

  Do you have a picture of this?  I am trying to figure out my mount, while avoiding the 'skylab' motif.....

  Maybe it is easier to find places to mount solar panels on a folding tri  ???

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 01, 2007, 02:25:26 PM
My bad...just checked the e-mail invoice and the manufacturer has them rated as 140W panels, not 80W.  :D

I believe the actual output at the time was about 18.3 A at 13.5 Volts (according to the display on the charge controller) at the time I did that particular test.... so I think they're actually quite conservatively rated.  I'd have to check my boat book for the details of the test.

Yes, the panels are rather large—28" x 60" x 2" or so each.  But the system I am using to mount them keeps them out of the way and fairly well oriented, but not perfectly aligned with the sun.  They're mounted on rails that mount between the cockpit pulpit and the ama. 

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 01, 2007, 02:25:26 PM

I believe the actual output at the time was about 18.3 A at 13.5 Volts (according to the display on the charge controller) at the time I did that particular test....

So, that's 247 Watts - is that for both panels at the same time?  If so, that seems pretty reasonable.

That's a LOT of juice, man.  If you get 5 hrs charge time at that rate, that's 90 amps per day.

You gotta microwave on board you have not told us about?   ;D

For some reason I seem to remember only having one of the panels actually out for the testing, since I was testing the wiring from the cockpit sockets to the solar panel charge controller.  I'd have to check my boat book to see if that was actually the case.  I ordered the panels before I realized how big they were and how much juice they were going to give me, because a friend of mine had gotten me a really good price on them.  :D  They are a bit overkill...unless I decide to add an SSB-radio or radar to the boat.   

As for how they're mounted...the skylab thing isn't too far from the mark. These are some photos of the port-side panel being mocked up, back when the mounts were being fabricated for me. 

(http://www.dankim.com/assets/solarfront.jpg)
(http://www.dankim.com/assets/solartop.jpg)

????
At what point do you need solar powers vers engin charging?

My outboard puts out 12 amps at 2000 rpm's and will run 4 hrs on a galon of gas. That is over 500 watts in 1 hrs.

Should I get a 48W solar pannel to cruise the Bahamas and East Coast?

Quote from: Lynx on March 03, 2007, 09:20:08 AM
????
At what point do you need solar powers vers engin charging?

My outboard puts out 12 amps at 2000 rpm's and will run 4 hrs on a galon of gas. That is over 500 watts in 1 hrs.

Should I get a 48W solar pannel to cruise the Bahamas and East Coast?

For my part, I do not like relying on the engine for charging.  To quote someone on the TSBB forum, you can count on engines to do one thing: FAIL.  The rags are full of stories of trips ending prematurely due to engine failure, followed by failure of all the other 'systems' that depended on the engine.

I am trying to COMPLETELY shift my thinking to the simple fact that the boat is a SAILING machine.  The engine may be a convenience, but I will NOT rely on it for ANYTHING.  Other reasons, imo, to resist relying on engine charging include: burning up fuel on an otherwise "clean" sailing passage, noise pollution in a quiet anchorage, etc.

All that said, I would also not put all my charging needs into ANY one single basket - that is, if I really NEED those electric applicances.  So yes, I personally would add a solar panel to the existing system.  Each (the panel and your ob) can back the other up - the ole belt-n-suspenders approach.

A 48 W panel with a 5 hour per day charge time should give you enough juice to not even need to fire up that ob (depending upon what you are powering aboard of course).

My $0.02.

Quote from: Lynx on March 03, 2007, 09:20:08 AM
????
At what point do you need solar powers vers engin charging?

My outboard puts out 12 amps at 2000 rpm's and will run 4 hrs on a galon of gas. That is over 500 watts in 1 hrs.

Should I get a 48W solar pannel to cruise the Bahamas and East Coast?

Not to speak for anyone else; but I think it is largely a matter of personal esthetics and preference.  Lots of people charge their batteries with engines.  Noise.  Pollution.  Wear and tear on the engine.  Reliance on a mechanical device.  A tie to the fuel station.  Solar power is clean and self sufficient.  Highly reliable.  Completely dependent on the sun shining, though.  And it takes deck space, controllers, and an initial investment.

Do you NEED solar?  Nope.  But neither do you NEED electricity.  Is all personal.

BTW, my outboard doesn't put out anywhere near 12 amps. 

Quote from: Captain Smollett on March 03, 2007, 09:32:19 AMFor my part, I do not like relying on the engine for charging.  To quote someone on the TSBB forum, you can count on engines to do one thing: FAIL.  The rags are full of stories of trips ending prematurely due to engine failure, followed by failure of all the other 'systems' that depended on the engine.

I am trying to COMPLETELY shift my thinking to the simple fact that the boat is a SAILING machine.  The engine may be a convenience, but I will NOT rely on it for ANYTHING.  Other reasons, imo, to resist relying on engine charging include: burning up fuel on an otherwise "clean" sailing passage, noise pollution in a quiet anchorage, etc.

All that said, I would also not put all my charging needs into ANY one single basket - that is, if I really NEED those electric applicances.  So yes, I personally would add a solar panel to the existing system.  Each (the panel and your ob) can back the other up - the ole belt-n-suspenders approach.

A 48 W panel with a 5 hour per day charge time should give you enough juice to not even need to fire up that ob (depending upon what you are powering aboard of course).

My $0.02.

I'd heartily agree with CS regarding engines being a source of failure.  If you've read Tania Aebi's Maiden Voyage, you'd realize how often she had engine trouble that often left her with no way to recharge her batteries, and in some cases without electrical power at all.   Also, one point he didn't make is that to charge the batteries via the engine, you need fuel. Fuel is heavy and takes up space, and once at sea, becomes a scarce resource, and better used where it is more needed—moving the boat under engine power if necessary, rather than for charging batteries that could easily be charged with renewable energy sources—wind, water and solar.

In fact, the solar panel system I have on the PG has redundancy built into it, as either panel alone should provide me with enough electricity to be fairly independent, provided the sun is shining... the OB is a tertiary charging source in many ways.

Very interesting setup on Guenevere, and LOL @ Craigs "Skylab Motif" comment. :D

Made me think - ouch. ;)

I like Guen's idea somewhat, in that you can fold the panels up/down, but I would be hesitant to leave the panels on while underway - seems like a lot of windage (esp. in that vertical configuration), and a high chance of damage occurring to the panels.

If you had a stainless rail for a top cockpit lifeline (similar to that on "Uhuru", pictured below {I love Uhuru's stainless!}), you could mount the panels horizontally, still be able to swing them up when possible, and they would be behind the widest point of the boat, protected somewhat by the taper of the hull. They would serve somewhat as leecloths, too. ;) Flexible panels attached to a frame would work here as well, and could be stowed for a storm more easily.

Something to think about... :)

I've been planning to supplement solar with a wind generator. The combo wind/tow generator gadget looks neat, and has been used by lots of cruisers for a long time - might be worth the price. :)


(http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=1803&stc=1&d=1103439192)

The DuoGen is kind of a neat beastie, if a bit noisy.  But having the ability to charge with wind at anchor, and via water on a long passage is not a bad one... give you far more flexibility than wind alone, and really would supplement solar, nicely.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 12, 2007, 07:05:49 PM
The DuoGen is kind of a neat beastie, if a bit noisy.  But having the ability to charge with wind at anchor, and via water on a long passage is not a bad one... give you far more flexibility than wind alone, and really would supplement solar, nicely.

exactly my point of view too. The downside is that a duogen setup costs aaaalmost as much as a water gen + a windgen   >:(   at least on this side of the pond. I cant´t figure out why...

Can't help you with pricing in the EU... which seems to be a bit odd due to import tariffs, exchange rates and all that...

On the wind gen's - The charging curive needs a some wind to make any amps. So if your cruising area does have the wind then it is good.

But underway it may not be.

When I was living on my 35 trimaran, I had a wind generator (Amp Air 50)  mounted atop the mizzen. Perfect place for it- out of the way, in clear air most times and unable to whack someone. The newer ones have higher ratings.

On small boats, like the Ariels,Tritons and our Meridian, a wind generator becomes somewhat of a problem- first finding a good place for it, then guying it off. It HAS to be high enough so no one can accidentally walk into the blades, so takes a substantial pipe or something to hang it on.

Of course, solar panels become a problem also. We have our flex panel mounted on the top of the bimini and if I were to add a second ( flex ) panel, I'd probably put it on the other section. Out of the way, and pretty much in sunlight, a good bit of the time. Rigid panels would most likely have to go aft either on the engine well cover or on brackets like the Martins did on Direction.

Ours is a 32 watt panel and serves us quite well. We carry a single Grp 27 battery.  BUT- we are frugal with using the juice.

You can see the panel in this picture-

(http://downloads.c-2.com/photos/1172507102.jpg)

I run a 30W panel on my TS 16 and find it very useful. It powers my anchor light, sounder and VHF. And of course, it will at that power handle upgrades. It all goes into a 70 aH battery. I can't get onto the 'Trailer Sailor' forum any more ... seems to be a blanket filter on access from South Asia and Australia.
Best, Ged

At least I think it is simple...

I use a small (5W) solar panel to charge my battery.  The wire from the panel to the battery attaches to the terminals with allegator clips.  The panel sits on the foredeck with the wire fed under the hatch and leads under the settee cushion through an access hatch to the battery.  When underway the panel is stowed on the V-berth. 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/30605PanelandFrame.jpg)
What I'd like to do is stow the panel in a bag in a cockpit locker when underway.  To make that easier I'd like to install a fitting in the wire so I can disconnect the panel without wrestling the cushion and standing on my head to reach the clips at the battery (I don't really stand on my head, but there is some gymnastics involved).

What kind of fitting am I looking for?

Thanks.

Bob,

My first impulse was ordinary bullet connectors should work.  At 5 W, you only have a few hundred milliamps.  Defender (http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C49758%7C112306&id=316481) carries some made by Achor. 

What gauge is the wire?

Here's a handy chart for wire sizing (http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm) aboard.

Bob, when I connected my solar panel, I used a trolling motor quick disconnect at the base of the solar panel.  Water proof, solid connection and easy to disconnect when needed.  It has worked great!

I'd second the trolling motor disconnects... I use them for the solar panels on the Pretty Gee.  They're also twist-lock, like the bigger shorepower cables, which makes the connection pretty secure.

Hey there, Ged! Good to have you aboard, I've always looked forward to reading about your trips and seeing the pictures on the TSBB, so it is great to have you here. :D

Yours is among the smallest of boats here, but I know that the two of you get around more than many, many bigger boats, so it's a great fit...  8)

Quote from: Ged on March 19, 2007, 04:30:22 PM
I run a 30W panel on my TS 16 and find it very useful. It powers my anchor light, sounder and VHF. And of course, it will at that power handle upgrades. It all goes into a 70 aH battery. I can't get onto the 'Trailer Sailor' forum any more ... seems to be a blanket filter on access from South Asia and Australia.
Best, Ged

The Trailer Sailor signal to noise ratio is pretty darn low right now, you are not missing much.  Stick around here!

I'm doing a sailing trip in 'le Sel' during June/July, so I'll post some pics and a yarn about it when I get back. Best, Ged

I decided to go with the option of 2 Kyocera 20 watt solar panels in separate bags with 1 inch of closed cell foam extended from the inside. This way I can put them anywhere I wanted to. The connections are Good mechanical as I know that I will be putting them on and off over 200 times in the next 3 years.

Panels -
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/veenjt/100_1203.jpg)

When stored you can put everything inside as it is Velcro'ed -
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/veenjt/100_1208.jpg)

Here is the connectors inside with the black caps on (this is above the fan) -
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/veenjt/100_1189.jpg)

Behind this is a 4 amp solar regulator connected directly to the battery.

Just make sure that the bags are tight so the panels do not move

Which connector fittings did you use, are those the ones with chains hanging off from them in the last pic?  What do the outside fitting and connector look like?

Your bag method looks good, although heat is an enemy of electronics in general and I believe it lowers the output of a solar panel.  With insulation underneath you might be losing some efficiency.  Not sure if it is significant though.  Is there vinyl of some kind on top of the solar panel?

works for me and my 10-W panel ....
Paul

The connectors I used for my solar panels were the three-prong twist-lock electric trolling motor connectors.  They're very heavy duty, and I have the third wire setup so I can use them as exterior accessory outlets, when I'm not using them for the solar panels.  I changed out the cord plug on a 12V hand held spotlight with one of the connectors.  Of the three pins, one is a ground, one is +12VDC power, and the last one is to the solar panel charger bus. 

Thanks for the great ideas and suggestions!   :)

I'll figure out which of your ideas I think will work best for me, shop for the parts, and get them installed!

BobW-

In case you wanted to see what I am using.  You can see them here.  (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/148391/10001/316/124/9)

Heat problems, Per my understanding heat can lower the solar panel output by 20%. The Mac does not have any flat spaces that big so the entire bottom will not be laying flat so will have air around it. The bottom pieces is closed cell foam so that the solar panels can be palced anywhere without damage to boat, etc..  To much cruve for the suction cups.

There is vinyl on top. This is the top quality that is used in dogers.

The connectors are the ones with the chain hanging off them. The chain is attached to caps. These are for external use. I may take these off if making to much noise at night. I will have to check on the fittings. As I recall they was $ 17 each.

I will be taking them down when underway. Only 1 day out of 4 if lucky.

Thanks for the link to the quick disconnect fittings.  That's not what I got when I Googled for "trolling motor quick disconnects" and I didn't see those at WM.  Truth be told, I stopped looking at WM when I saw the part Google served up, so those fittings you use are probably at the store and I just didn't see them.  I'll look again.

By the way, the fittings you use look more like what I'm after  than the ones I found.

Thanks.

Went shopping for the 3-Prong quick disconnect fittings.  West Marine didn't have them (but they could order them).  Wal Mart had the set for just under $18, so I picked up a set. 

Installation will have to wait until next weekend, what with tomorrow's family holiday get-together.

Thanks for the help.

BobW-

Have  a good easter... and look forward to seeing the photos of the setup.

Welcome (belatedly! :o) Ged.

Here's a solar panel question for everyone.  There appears to be condensation under the glass on the lower third of my solar panel.  If that's what it is, is it a problem?  How can I get rid of it?  If it's not condensation, what is it?  Is it a problem.  And how can I get rid of it?   Okay, so that's 5 questions.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/BobWessel/41507SolarPanel.jpg)

The panel is 2 years old and sits out whenever Prelude is in the slip. 

Is it time for a new panel?

Thanks.

Most panels have at least a 10 year warranty.  The ones that don't are usually the semi-rigid or flexible panels, which take a lot more abuse than rigid panels generally do.  I'd check with the manufacturer first.  This may be a known issue with the panel, and you might be able to get a replacement for free. 

Are you sure it is condensation?  I've seen panels that looked "foggy" but it was salt that had been left behind on the panel's surface instead.  Try wiping the area with vinegar, which should help remove the salt rime if that is what it is.

Thanks.  No, I'm not sure it is condensation but don't have any other ideas of what it might be.

I'll try cleaning it next week.  If it doesn't clean up, I'll check with the manufacturer.

Hello all...
I know the solar vs generator has been discussed over and over on several boards. But there is one issue that I need your help with. Currently I am using a single solar panel to keep up with my batteries. In the next couople of months I will spend much more time out on the boat and the energy load will be going up accordingly. I am leary of adding two big solar panels to the bimini because of the way the extra weight will effect the sailing performance of the boat (C&C 27 5500# displacement). This is really a small boat issue. I'm open to any opinion or advice but am interested in hearing from those of you using solar panels. If you could let me know the type of boat, type of solar panels and where the panels are mounted I would appreciate it.

pv

we have a 32 watt flexible panel mounted on the rear half of our bimini. Meridian 25, disp 5300.

That one panel has served our total needs for our cruising so far- however we have now added a tiller pilot and I have no idea how much extra juice that will suck up.

Normally we can cruise close to 2 weeks on a single charge on a grp 27 battery, but we tend to be a whole lot more frugal on electric usage than most people. Before we got the solar panel we commonly did 10 or 11 days.. Now, without the tiller pilot, the 32 watts completely keeps us charged up.

Thanks Charlie, I may see you soon. I'm just up the coast and can't decide if I'm headed south to Matagorda and points beyond or east to the Redneck Riviera.

Oh come on down. We call THIS the Redneck Riviera too. In fact Laura and I normally host a 4th of July cruise on Matagorda and Espirtu Santo bays that we call the "Redneck Riviera" cruise. Last year we had five boats, the year before, six, including Chuck Lienweber from Duckworks.

We are bypassing this year because the 4th falls on a Weds and people can't get 4 days off as easily.  But Larry Joe Taylor's "Doing It On the Deck" concert will still be held July 3rd at Nautical Landings Marina in Port Lavaca. we have several people coming for that anyway, without boats I'm afraid.

I'll give iit some serious thought. to date I have not spent any time on MB.

By the way the Lone Start Cruisers Party is this weekend at Watergate on clear lake. Bit party, Latts and Atts is sponsoring.

come on by

Laura works on Thurs, Fri, Sat and Sun nights. So I work on those days also. Our weekend is Monday, Tuesday and Weds, although I usually spend a good bit of Weds in the shop working. Got a Core Sound 20 to finish for a customer in Baton Rouge.

When we get a chance to sail. it's on those three days. Sounds like a blast- I met Bob up in Chicago when I had boats on display at Strictly Sail one year. DIFFERENT dude to say the least.

FWIW,

  Have not been posting as much lately, been busy getting the boat ready.

I swapped out the single group 31 battery for a pair of Trojan T-105's. (6v golf cart batteries.)

  They are rated at 225 ah, and of course in series you must have the pair to get 12vdc.  Their footprint is less then a pair of 12v batteries might have been, but they are somewhat taller (couple inches).

  Some in slip testing has been encouraging.  I ran the Engel (700ma) and the radio (?) all weekend with no appreciable voltage decrease (the old battery would drop below 12v over night).

  There are lots of 'golf cart' type batteries out there, US batteries seems to dominate the market, and I looked at theirs at Sam's club for $30 less then I paid for the Trojans.  Probably would have been ok, but the ah rating was lower.

  Trojan also makes a T125 golf cart battery that have a slightly higher rating.  The price for the increase was not acceptable in the shopping I did (all local, since shipping batteries is so pricey).

 

   

Kurt,

  I saw in the 'Fuels' thread that you had said;

QuoteShips power is provided by a 50W solar panel mounted aft, battery bank is 2 x 12V (one grp 24, one grp 27 at present, changing that soon to a 2x Trojan T105 golf cart battery setup). I would like to get one of the quiet, fuel sipping Honda/Yamaha 4 stroke 1kW gensets eventually, so that'll be "Gas" too.

  Did you get a 'round tuit' yet?

I have 1 single marine battery. I can run the anchor light and a cabin fan all night without a problem. To charge it, I have to run the outboard for a little while. I have a small solar panel, and I'm looking for a regulator so I can install it, but I'm going to wait 'till next season for that.

Gus

If you want a fairly decent, but small and inexpensive regulator, I would recommend that you look at the FlexCharge NC25A (http://www.flexcharge.com/flexcharge_usa/products/nc25a/nc25a.htm). 

You might like this method mounting solar panels http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/solartracker.htm

IMHO, solar makes more sense than a small generator, since a generator will require fuel—the solar panels won't.  I have two rather large 130W solar panels on my boat, but I do have a bit more space to work with in terms of mounting them.

We have a 75 solar panel...but have never permanently mounted it...I am seriously thinking of getting rid of it, as the size is kind of large and what it provides, even under ideal conditions is still less then what I would like.

I am more tempted to install a generator/alternator off the prop, so that you can opt to have your prop spin freely while sailing and that way generate rather large amounts of electricity for your battery bank. It costs a little boat speed...but so does haveing honking great sheets of solar panels all over your boat!

Now when they can build a photovoltaic set of sails...that converts light from BOTH sides and that costs about the same as a set of regular laminated sails and weighs the same too.... Then I think solar will win.

Alex.

we use a simple foldaway solar panel.Although limited as to its charging ability, it did bring up a dead battery in 2 1/2 hrs of sun enough for a start.These units fold away into the size of a book. Still can't load pics here, so I put one in my gallery.The beauty is they store small,are light and you move them around to follow the sun. KISS . Generaters seem complicated to this simple mind  ;)

Reality has met my energy budget and it has not worked out well.

All of my numbers were based on 6a coming from the outboard for around 6 hours a day.  We have motored very little compared to that and have used much more power then the budget allowed.

  For instance the Engle fridge that had a stated draw of 700ma in fridge mode to 2.5a in freezer mode actually draws more (around 2a)* when it runs which is between 40% and 75% of the time.  I had figured a worst case of 24 x .7 for 16.5 ah... it is something like 35ah in practice.  This was the majority of my 25ah budget.  I have also used more power running the inverter to use the laptop.  It is rated at 400w, and draws 6.5a with the computer off and charging, but draws a whopping 10a with the computer running. Just 2 hours on the computer a day doubles what I was counting on.

  So, the 6a outboard charging system that is not used much, and my ~ 60w of solar panels (one hard panel and 2 x 20w flexible panels) should provide a max charge of 5a, (have never seen more then 3a). 

Revised energy budget requires about 60ah.  I can expect only about half of what I need from the solar panels I have, and I don't want to go much larger.  I know I can get a little more if I 'vector' the panels to track the sun but I don't see this as a realistic option on my boat.

  I have looked at wind, and generally like the Rutland wind generators both for their output on light wind, and their reputation for being quiet.

The model  I like the the Rutland 503, it is very small and will fit nicely on a mount my stern rail.  It is rated at '60 watts' but more digging shows it only makes the 5a at higher wind speeds.  It is marketed as a wind 'trickle charger'.

The Rutland 913 on the other hand makes about twice the output but  is also much bigger and will require a more substantial mount.

I have considered a small 2 stroke generator until I can get this worked out, but don't like this as a long term solution.  Of course eliminating the fridge would make the system work as it stands, but my Fist mate is more important to me then making the energy budget simple.

Anyone got any thoughts?

* I have added a link 10 mattery monitor to the system.... No longer kiss.  :P

Ditch the fridge.  Lots of folks cruise without refridgeration.  Hold them up as examples and maybe Rose will see it as more of a convenience than a necessity?

For my plans, I would like to plan toward a 0 ah energy budget.  I view reliance on electricity as one of those 'traps' we often talk about.  I know 0 is probably not realistic, but that's the goal I am working toward.

Quote from: Captain Smollett on September 29, 2007, 12:13:46 AM
Ditch the fridge.  Lots of folks cruise without refridgeration.  Hold them up as examples and maybe Rose will see it as more of a convenience than a necessity?.....

Well.... we just spent a week with James and Mei... if THEY could not talk her into it I think I had better just figure it out...  :P

Quote from: s/v Faith on September 29, 2007, 12:21:48 AM

Well.... we just spent a week with James and Mei... if THEY could not talk her into it I think I had better just figure it out...  :P

Good point.   :)

Is it worthwhile to ask the question "what do we need refridgeration for?"  I mean, a LOT of stuff can go weeks without the fridge if we just give ourselves over to it.  Becky and I were talking just tonight about eggs and she said "but why does FDA say that they have to refridgerated?" if many people say the really DON'T need the cold.  It's a fair point: "why?"

I'm sorry to hear your electrical budget is not meeting your needs.  There's a lesson for us all in what you wrote.

s/v Faith-

Just curious, which model/size Engel do you have???

Eggs can go for months with no refrigeration, but there's a kicker- they have to have NEVER been refrigerated. Once they've been in the cooler, they won't last nearly as long.

But there's been some very good points made here. MANY many things we stick in the frig at home simply are there as a convienient storage spot- they don't need to be refrigerated.

And I've always found, in talking to longer term cruisers, the frig is almost a certainty to poop out on you sometime down the line.

Laura and I don't use our ice box to keep food, other than maybe the first few days out, when we might have some frozen meals prepackaged in there. And we feel we eat quite well. Now we might stick a hunk of cheese in there, or maybe a Snicker bar or two, but that not a normal thing.

On another note- when I lived aboard the tri, I had a wind charger atop the mizzen mast- An AmpAir 50. That was replaced by the AmpAir 100, but I don't know if it's still built.

we provided all of our amps using that wind charger, except when in places where wind simplye could not get to us normally- and there were a few of those.

I also carried a small Honda gas generator, to use in those few times when the generator wasn't doing it.

But they are ALL noisy. Just yesterday I was working aboard a big tri with a wind genrator hanging in the rigging- In 15 mph winds, it's scary noisy. It's a two bladed unit. I've found that the more blades there are,, the quieter it runs.

Frankly I feel that for long term cruising use, a combination of the two is most likely the best alternative- a smaller wind generator, coupled with a good array of solar.

AND reducing you electrical needs to a minimum of course.

That is pretty much what I was thinking too Charlie.  Adding wind, and maybe a small generator for times when there is not wind or sun.

  Right now, as I type this there are almost no food items in the fridge that would not be there if we did not have it.  There is mayo, not because we believe it has to be refrigerated, but because it is good cold.  Interestingly when we were at a restaurant we noticed they had squeeze bottles of Helmans mayo on the table.  On the bottle it said 'for restaurant use only'.  I read the ingredients, and compared them to helmans mayo in the store and they where the same. 

  We also have the beans and rice mix I have on my 'breakfast burrito's and a package of sliced turkey.  We keep regular 'store bought' eggs on the counter and they don't seem to go bad before we use them (usually within 2 weeks of purchase).

  The main reason we have the fridge is so the bottles of drinking water can be cold.  We drink the water out of the tank, but we run it through a britta water filter first to remove any taste.  We then keep it in recycled 'vitamin water' bottles that we like because they have big lids and are the right size.  We rinse them with hot soapy vinegar water between uses.

  The fridge we have is the Engle model 27.  It has a 22 quart capacity, and fits well just inside our V-berth.  I found a link to an Engle produced document that shows the current use patterns for this fridge, and it shows that the draw is very much dependant upon the difference between air temp and interior temp.  I still think it is a great unit, it just uses a bit more juice in practice then I expected.

  My wife enjoys living on a 26' boat with me, is content to go wherever, and do whatever seems like a good ideat to us at the time.  She does most of the cooking, and can do any task on the boat that needs to be done.  All she asked of the trip was to have room for her books, and some cold water to drink.  The fridge is a minor concession and it wil be worth it to keep it going even if I have to peddle a bicycle generator....   ;D

Dan,

  It only took me an hour to find it, but here is a link (http://128.121.204.56/engel/MT27F%20performance%20curve.gif) to the graph I was talking about.  I think you may be interested since I believe we have the same model fridge.

(http://128.121.204.56/engel/MT27F%20performance%20curve.gif)

On edit;

OBTW, this is the wind generator I am leaning twords; (http://www.semarine.com/store/product.php?productid=143&cat=190&page=1)

The Rutland 913;

(http://www.semarine.com/store/image.php?productid=143)

It is also available from these folks,  (http://www.cruisingsolutions.com/aboutus.asp)for the same price ($995)

The other one I like, but I don't think it makes enough juice is;

The Rutland 503;

(http://www.semarine.com/store/image.php?productid=142)

  If anyone finds them cheaper, I would appreciate hearing about it.
;)

Thanks to all who have particiapted, grog to all.  ;D

s/v Faith-

Thanks for the power graph.  BTW, you might want to look at the KISS wind generator, as I believe it is about the same price as the Rutland 913, but generates considerably more power.  You can read about them HERE (http://www.kissenergy.com/PracticalSailor.html).  Here is a chart of the various wind gensets and the power they generate.

(http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/library/windgencomp.jpg)

Thanks for the suggestion Dan,

  The Kiss was one of the models I originally considered, but I think it's  'wingspan' is about 5'  :o  The Rutland 913 is 910mm, or about 36". 
(http://www.marlec.co.uk/products/images/913out.GIF)

The 503 is tiny at IIRC ~30".  I know the Kiss would only need a 12" longer mount pole to get the same height above deck, but I am already struggling trying to picture a 36" propeller rotating above my stern pulpit....

  Does anyone here have any experience with the Rutland?

Good point.. the diameter is 58" IIRC.

I have a Aerogen6 wind generator mounted on the port stern and am adding a 65watt solar panel. I don't know how the Aerogen6 compares to others but it is a fairly good sized unit, pretty quiet and seems very robust.

We also have a Engel fridge but ours is a 35. I hope to have enough power to run it, the tiller pilot and our lights and other loads.

Our boat is still on the hard so we don't know how its all going to work out. We plan to launch sometime in the spring. For the near future it will be in a marina with shore power and we will only need power for long weekends but we hope to get much further from the grid soon.

As far as not needing the fridge, I agree we could do without it. But we do like cold drinks and perishable meats. I have learned to hate dragging around a cooler and trying to keep ice in it. The first mate will put up with just about any kind of sacrifice to be on the water....as long as she has a COLD Mikes hard lemonade or a Margarita.  ;D

W Jones,

  Good to see you post again.  The winches are working out great, grog to you.  ;D

I think the idea of the solar / wind combination is sound, I would recommend going with the largest solar array that does not scream that you are a fan of science fiction (not that there is anything wrong with that, I was a huge Dr. Who fan as a kid).

  I will say that I don't recommend Sunlinq solar panels.  I have two 25w panels on my bimini and I can hardly tell a difference when they are even hooked up.

  My real life current use has been about 25ah over the last couple weeks, that is my Engle 27 and a handheld GPS, and sometimes the VHF.  The draw was about twice that when it was hotter outside, as the fridge uses alot more juice when it has to work to keep cool (ambient temp and interior temp very different).

  I will be interested in your evaluation of the aerogen.  I have come across a couple Rutland's (all 913s, no 503s yet) and they have been really quiet.

 

I used to have a WindBugger on our trimaran for a few years.  Great output, supplied our entire energy budget...  but boy did it whine when the wind picked up!  I could tell wind speed from my bunk by the pitch of the sound it made.  Only consolation was that the amps went up as the noise went up.  All in all I think it was a fair bit louder than most other units; I'll be looking for something a bit quieter next time.
Bill

My major project for the spring is working out the bugs in the solar panel mount setup.  From what I've seen, the two 130 W solar panels will provide all the electricity I need for the foreseeable future.  I am planning on upping the house bank to 400 amp-hours, from the current 200 amp-hours this spring as well.

I do have a stereo and a laptop that I generally use when at anchor, since I like to listen to music and write when I'm at anchor.  I also have the VHF and an Engel MT27 refrigerator. 

One thing I've found useful is to pre-freeze gatorade and juice in the two-liter bottles and then leave them in the refrigerator, along with what I need refrigerated... and the refrigerator rarely goes on with them there.

As for mayo... it really doesn't require refrigeration.  The main problem with mayo is that you have to prevent any bacteria from getting into it... Using a mayo squeeze bottle is probably the best way to do this.  If you have to use a spoon, always use a clean, unused spoon to get mayo out. 

I have a 6 watt solar panel and 2 batteries. Is it possible to connect the solar panel to both batteries and only use one battery at a time? That way I always have a fully charged battery. Or should I just connect both batteries together and let the solar panel charge both at the same time? Hope this makes since.

Ebay special on the solar panel. $34.99. Works great. One battery was completely down. I put the panel on the down one Wednesday night and last night I checked the volts and they were sitting at 12.08. So I guess it was worth the few bucks I paid.

Thanks for the advice,
David

Sounds good so far.  Keep it going and see if it brings your battery back to full charge.  For a lead-acid battery, 100% charge is 12.7 volts (after being at rest for 3 hours after charging).

The simplest way to charge both batteries at the same time without drawing on both is through an isolation diode.  It's completely hands off, but the diode will cause a voltage drop of 0.5 to 1.0 volts.  This will slow your charging and possibly limit your charging depending on your panel.

You can also install a simple SPDT Center Off switch on the solar panel hot wire to direct your charge.  Its like a 1-2-both battery switch, except lighter duty and way cheaper.  (with a 6W panel your max output current is 0.5 amps, so you're not talking alot of current...)   No voltage drop here but you have to manually choose which battery is being charged.

There are other devices to do what you want to do but they'll cost you more than the rest of your setup combined...   or if your batteries are the same type and in similar condition (age and use-wise) you can just parallel the batteries, charging both and using both as one big battery.

The best choice for you depends on how you use your batteries - is one a starting battery, or are they both for "house" loads?  Is it important to keep one battery as a "backup" while drawing on the other, or can you monitor your batteries to make sure you don't run everything down.  Is it an inconvenience, or a crisis, if you do?  What other charging options do you have?  Ultimately your choice will reflect your overall electrical strategy.

The easiest way would be to get a second solar panel and charge them seperately.

If you connect them, they should be of roughly the same "age", in other words they should have similar charge/discharge characteristics.  If you connect new batteries together with old batteries, the old batteries can reduce the total amp hours that the new batteries can put out.

Thanks Bill for the reply.

The batteries are for house loads only. My outboard is rope pull to start. At the moment I don't have a on board way to monitor the usage. That part is in the plans along with moving the panel. It's a long way away from the batteries. I do have a trickle charger for shore power.

Power requirements.

VHF (Have to get a new one as the owner wired it up wrong an burnt the VHF up.)
GPS  (I can use it with 6 AA batteries or put it on an inverter)
Laptop  (Battery included or can use on inverter to charge battery)
Nav Lights
Interior Lights

We do have some LED stickup light in our RV from Wal Mart that work pretty good and cheap. I plan to get some more for the boat cabin. They take 2 AA batteries and I can recharge them when needed.

To me the main thing is the VHF and nav lights. I don't plan on sailing at night, but if I get caught where I can't get back in before dark and have to anchor out I would need the anchor light.

I'll check into the SPDT Center Off switch.

Thanks Shylark for the info. I know one is brand new but not sure of the age of the other. It looks brand new but who knows. The solar panels are cheaper than new batteries so I might just go that way.

Take care
David

would i be correct in concluding that the batteries are the "same age"/similar for charging purposes if they are very similar when i test their specific gravity?

also, here's a controller for charging two batteries off of one panel:
http://www.solarpanelstore.com/solar-power.small-charge-controllers.eco-energy.sunsport-10m.info.1.html

but could i run one solar panel through two cheap single battery controllers in order to charge two batteries simultaneously and save a few bucks over the sunsport controller?

??? ??? ???

Grime;

for your situation, you would be best off with the two batteries connected together as a house bank, assuming that they are of similar age/charge capacity.  I have a similar set up with pull start outboard and navlights, cabin lights, vhf, radio and depth sounder as a load.  Two deep discharge marine trolling batteries have always had plenty of charge.  I have a 30W panel.  You can probably get by with a 6W panel if you conserve power and are a weekend user. I have discussed this with a number of sailors who say a 10W panel is adequate, at least for weekend use.

You may want to get a charge controller but with 6W you are right on the edge of not needing one.  See:  http://www.windsun.com/ChargeControls/ChargeCont.htm

If you decide you want one, this one would do a good job: http://store.solar-electric.com/sg-4.html


Vinegar Joe;

After fully charging the batteries, let them sit for a few hours, then measure voltage.  That is one way to compare.  The specific gravity might be another way.  You could also just try them out together.  I think the problem is mainly with batteries that are very different, one new, one very old, for example.  If they are roughly the same you won't lose much.  The issue is that the old battery will "scavenge" voltage from the new battery.  In other words your battery bank is only as good as your worst battery.

Why do you want the batteries charged separately, to keep reserve power to start your motor?  There is another way to achieve that, by connecting your batteries together as a single house bank and using Low Voltage Disconnect.  Take a look at this charge controller:

http://store.solar-electric.com/ss-6l.html

You could connect your house loads to the low voltage disconnect connection and it would shut off your house power if battery voltage fell too far.  You would still have some voltage left to start your engine, which should be connected directly to the battery posts, not through the charge controller.  The website doesn't seem to show what the LVD voltage is, though.  It is probably about 50% discharge which is what the maximum recommended discharge for lead acid batteries.

I have a solar charge controller with LVD but I have never had the battery voltage low enough for it to kick in.

Thanks Skylark for all the information. I should be pretty good shape as I only plan on day sails and maybe some over nights.

thanks from me, too, skylark.  not sure i still understand, but i'm getting there.  i have two batteries.  typically, i use only one for everything (starting engine, house electricity) and switch between batteries depending on the day (odd days - battery #1, even days - #2).  i'd like to use a solar panel to keep both batteries always topped up/charged.  it seemed like the easiest way to do this would be to use the sunsport controller that i mentioned.  i think that it's about $100 so the one that you recommended be cheaper.

I'd say that with a 6W panel charging two batteries you don't even need a charge controller.  Remember that these devices are primarily designed to work with larger arrays putting out much more current that your 0.5A max.  I'd spend $10-15 on a switch and incorporate it into your routine (for example, draw and charge on Batt 1 , then leave the switch still charging Batt 1 until the next time you go out.  Then switch the whole lot to Batt 2, etc).  Try not to make your system any more complicated (or expensive) than it needs to be.

vinegarj - if you have electric start, does yo0ur outboard also charge the batteries?  If so, how are you controlling where this charge goes at present?

my engine charges my batteries.  i try to run it as little as possible and when it is run for long periods then the autopilot is on and draining juice.
no controller to prevent over charging, but it's never been an issue.  i have an analog voltmeter by the nav station and if a battery is getting low then i take action (switch batteries, run engine).

Thanks Bill,
I plan on KISS. I did find today that I had better rewire her. Most of it looks like some kid put it together and doesn't work. The bilge pump was just sitting in the hull with no exit. Not even hooked up.  Boy if that doesn't make since. I guess the guy that owned her figured he would bail her out with a bucket. Funny there isn't one on board. 

Once you get a solar panel and charge controller set up right, you don't have to do anything else, the sun just keeps it charged up.  It is really, really simple in operation and very reliable.

The daily charge for a few hours seems to lengthen the life of the batteries, solar charging and lead acid battery chemistry seem to work well together.

If you have two batteries, you are better off connecting them in parallel to make a single house battery bank.  Batteries are damaged slightly each time their amp hours are significantly used.  The rule of thumb is never to use more than 50% of your capacity, or you will risk damage. The closer you can keep your batteries to fully charged, the longer they will last.  If you regularly take one battery down to 50% capacity, it is probably worse on the battery than if you were connect your two batteries in parallel and draw your house bank down 25% with the same load.

If you want to keep a battery reserved just for starting the motor, I would suggest separating the starter battery from the house bank, and charge the house bank only with solar (no engine), while the motor battery could be charged by the motor, and possibly with a separate, small solar panel in the 2W to 4W range. 

Thanks Skylark for all the information. All answers are greatly appreciated as I am still learning what is best and still KISS

I got a charger controller off ebay today. Priced right.

David

okay, i ordered a 40 watt panel.  i have a single bank of batteries (two batteries total).  here's a link to what my system will look like:  http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/30.htm

so i'll only need one controller between the panel and the two batteries, right?  sorry to be so thick in the brain on this one and thanks in advance.

Here's a link to the charge controller we use with our 32 watt panel. A friend of mine in Florida tested several different controllers in his electronics shop. This one came out the best, and worked the best in hot weather.


http://store.solar-electric.com/ss-10.html

Here is a picture of how I wired Che'

(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4801&stc=1&d=1206849545)

I have the two batteries tied together with one controller like Charlie's

David-

You'll probably want to have the batteries separate and connect the solar panel to one at a time. A Six Watt panel is a very small panel and is really only good for battery maintenance, and probably won't recharge the batteries after use to any real degree.   A six watt panel will give you about .3 amps of real output.  A rough estimate for the actual output of the panel for a day would be 1.5 amp-hours (five hours * .3 amps).  If you have a Group 31 wet cell lead-acid battery, you're going to lose about that much per day due to internal losses and self-discharge, since a wet-cell lead acid battery tends to self-discharge at a rate of about .5-1% per day.

The 12.08 Volt charge level you're seeing is most likely a surface charge on the plates, and not the real charge level of the batteries.  If you were to load the battery with a large load to disperse the surface charge, you'd find that the actual voltage of the battery is likely a bit lower.   A fully discharged 12 VDC battery will read about 11.6 VDC. 

To do battery charging with solar panels, you really want to get at least an 80 Watt solar panel.  This will give you about 5-6 amps of current, and about 25 amp-hours per day.  However, you will probably want a charge controller with any solar panel above 40 Watts in size.  With the 80 Watt panel, you could parallel the two batteries and leave them connected to the solar panel, and it is very likely that it would keep the batteries topped off fairly well.  If you're not using a solar panel charge controller, remember to put in a blocking diode in the line coming from the panel, otherwise the panel can discharge the batteries overnight...

:)  YMMV.

Quote from: Grime on March 01, 2008, 08:26:45 AM
I have a 6 watt solar panel and 2 batteries. Is it possible to connect the solar panel to both batteries and only use one battery at a time? That way I always have a fully charged battery. Or should I just connect both batteries together and let the solar panel charge both at the same time? Hope this makes since.

Ebay special on the solar panel. $34.99. Works great. One battery was completely down. I put the panel on the down one Wednesday night and last night I checked the volts and they were sitting at 12.08. So I guess it was worth the few bucks I paid.

Thanks for the advice,
David

Quote from: vinegarj on June 02, 2008, 12:47:48 PM
okay, i ordered a 40 watt panel.  i have a single bank of batteries (two batteries total).  here's a link to what my system will look like:  http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/30.htm

so i'll only need one controller between the panel and the two batteries, right?  sorry to be so thick in the brain on this one and thanks in advance.

Connect battery1 positive to battery2 positive with a red wire.
Connect battery1 negative to battery2 negative with a black wire.

Now you can treat the two batteries as if they were one battery, using one controller. 

Connect the positive connection on the controller to the red wire.
Connect the negative connection on the controller to the black wire.
It doesn't matter where on the wire you make the connections, it could be at either battery terminal or somewhere in between.

Regarding the diodes shown on Casey's website, many solar panels have diodes already installed.  Your specification sheet should tell you if there is a diode.  You do not need two diodes, you just need one. It is probably already mounted in the solar panel.

paul...
some questions.
don't most controllers also do the job of the diode?
and if i wire up as you suggested, what becomes of my battery switch (e.g., i would select battery #1 for starting and battery #2 for house juice)?
also what happens if one battery is funky?  for redundancy, won't i be better off to keep the batteries separate? 
help educate this ohm's law reject.

Most solar panel charge controllers have the blocking diode function integrated, not always using a diode...but effectively do the same thing. 

If you connect batteries as Skylark suggests, you will only have ONE battery bank. If you want to keep two separate banks, then hook each to one side of the 1/2/Both switch and then get an ACR battery combiner (http://www.defender.com/ProductDisplay?id=750182), which will combine the batteries when ever a charging level voltage is detected.

If you connect batteries as Skylark suggest, if one goes bad, it will probably kill the other one.

The biggest power hogs on my boat has been the Computer and stereo. you may be surprised how you will much you use these when underway or at anchor. And how much you need the sun when you do not have any for a day or 2.

I have 2 - 20W panels. MY solar regulator cannot handle more amps so If I get another one I will need a bigger regulator.

Lynx-

I'm kind of surprised that the solar charge controller you have can't handle more than two 20 watt panels.  That's less than 4 amps...

adrift...
thanks for the additional info.  for this season, i'm leaning toward keeping the battery arrangement status quo (KISS) and using the panel to only charge the house battery.

Quote from: vinegarj on June 02, 2008, 12:47:48 PM
i have a single bank of batteries (two batteries total).

Sorry I read this and thought your intent was to create a single battery bank. 

I have a single battery bank however my motor is a pull start outboard so I don't need redundancy.  Your situation may be different.

Adriftatsea - I bought a cheep one, the next one was 3x $$$

FWIW,

  I just responded to a post on another board about flexable panels.  I do not recall if I had shared this here... but in case I did not here is a quote of that post.

 

Quote--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would highly recommend you avoid the Sunlinq 25w foldable panels.

There used to be another brand of 'flexible' panels that were removed from the US market (I believe it was removed for liability issues, something about overheating). I searched for some time for a pair, but settled on a pair of Sunlinq 25w panels.

I had them on top of my Bimini where they fit nicely. The problem was that I noticed very little (a few hundred ma) increase in my charging. I tried several tests, connecting one at a time, making sure there was no shading, etc. Nothing I did got the output to more then 300ma.... as verified with a DMM. I even tried running them into a load (in case the low output was related to charging issues since the batteries internal resistance stays higher in a nearly charged battery... yada yada yada...) No joy.

I installed them prior to crossing to the Bahamas, and did not want to pay shipping to send them back. The seller (alt-energy.org) accepted them back after I returned. They did not fess up to having reports of problems with them, but did not act surprised that I had low output from them.

I noticed after my return that West marine had picked up Sunlinq and was selling them in their stores.

I would avoid these panels.

If I wire up my two 12 volt batteries as one bank, will a 5 watt solar panel be enough of a trickle charge to keep them healthy through the off-season (assuming I put them to bed in a fully charged state)?

It depends on the type of battery—agm, gel, wetcell—and how large the batteries are.

AGM batteries have very low self-discharge rates, and basically don't really need to be charged over the off-season, provided they're fully charged to begin with.  Gels are very voltage sensitive, and I'm not  big fan of them, and using a solar panel to trickle charge them is less than ideal, since an unregulated solar panel can boil off the gel electrolyte on them. 

Wet cell batteries do self discharge and depending on the temperature, can do so at a rate of up to 1% per day. 

As an example:  if you have two Group 31 batteries connected in parallel, the bank size is about 250-280 amp-hours.  Assuming a .5% discharge rate, since it will be the off-season and in theory cooler than high-summer.... you're looking at 1.3-1.5 amp-hours or so per day. 

A 5W solar panel generates .37 amps at 13.4 VDC, which is about what the float charge on a 12 VDC battery.  This amperage figure is a bit high, since most solar panels are higher voltage and lower amperage, and it is the amperage that is more important, since any excess voltage is dissipated as heat.  On average a solar panel provides full charge for about five hours a day, but less so in winter, when the days are shorter.  Figure about 3.5 hours at .37 amps, which is about 1.3 Amp-hours... not accounting for losses... so no, it probably isn't going to be big enough for a two-Group 31 battery bank, but might work for two Group 24s.

IMHO, you would probably want a 10-15 Watt panel instead, but it depends on the size of your battery bank. 

I hope this helps.

thanks for the info, explanation.  excellent.  my batteries are group 27, wet cells.   

I have a cigarete lighter outlet at my main electrical panel just inside the hatch. I use it  to recharge small devices like cell phones, or with a small inverter with a cigarette lighter plug,  I can run some small load 120V things like a laptop computer.

If I had a solar panel that had a cigarette adapter plug on the end, could I charge my batteries going backward through the lighter?

Bill,

  yes, you can.  With 2 considerations.  First, you need to consider the current, make sure the wiring is rated for the current the panel will supply.  I doubt this will be much of a consideration, since most solar panels that would come with a cigarette lighter plug are pretty low output 'maintenance' type panels.  They generally don't require any kind of regulator, and are rarely more then 20w.

  The second consideration is the current you will loose through the resistance that is typical of this type of connector.  I have several aboard Faith, and the one I have in the cockpit has been replaced several times due to the corrosion.  I only buy the better quality ones, but they only last so long in a salt water environment.  A little but of corrosion will add a fair amount of resistance, and can decrease the output of the panel considerably.

  That said, I doubt you will have any real problem using that outlet.

FWIW, the Sunlink panels marketed by WM come with a lighter plug, but they are ABSOLUTE garbage and should be avoided.  I will merge this into the solar power thread, and you will be able to read more about them there.


 

One other problem you may or may not have, depending on the size of your battery bank and your solar panel, is the risk of frying your batteries.  If the panels output is more than 10% of the battery bank size, you probably want to run the panel through a charge controller.

I single hand 99% of the time, and as a result I am using a auto-tiller 24/7 (when I can't do sheet-to-tiller steering). That combined with radar (especially at night and when sleeping), nav lights, GPS, and other incidental electricity uses, I can suck my batteries dry in 24 hours, even if I run the engine a bit.

My goal is to add a few amps during the day when I am sailing or on a lay over day in a harbor, not trickle charge to maintain batteries when I'm away from the boat.

This should do it for you:

http://store.solar-electric.com/poup20wa12vo.html
+
http://store.solar-electric.com/sg-4.html

  Rose and I were going for a sail yesterday and I dropped the Tohatsu into the well.  I did my pre-start routine and noticed the wires had pulled out of the DC connector.

  I can remember repairing this set up several times.  It has been used with the Yamama, the Suzuki, and now with the Tohatsu.  It is the same old goofy connector that is sold by most every marine supplier.  Sea dog markets one, I believe that Anchor sells the same connector.  It is a round plug with 2 brass pins that are sized so it can not be plugged in wrong.

  I have tried tinning the wires, wrapping the assembly in good heat shrink, dieelectric grease, even once encased the connector in a waterproof box for a while.

  Nothing has worked.  Of course it has a hard life with it necessary life in the Lazy-rat.

  I have looked at other connectors and found nothing I am happy with.  The 'Cigarette lighter' plug (even the good ones) corrode and jar loose.  I use one for my anchor light outlet and it is strictly a below decks item IMHO.

  There is the plug made for the trolling motors.... the two sides of the plug are something like $50... and it looks like a not so boat friendly designed piece IMHO.  (big body, little protection for terminals, bulky...)

  OTher then studs and brass thumb screws I am at a loss to figure this one out.

  Anyone found a decent DC connector>? (that does not cost $50).


Also,

 

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on April 01, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
The connectors I used for my solar panels were the three-prong twist-lock electric trolling motor connectors.  They're very heavy duty, and I have the third wire setup so I can use them as exterior accessory outlets, when I'm not using them for the solar panels.  I changed out the cord plug on a 12V hand held spotlight with one of the connectors.  Of the three pins, one is a ground, one is +12VDC power, and the last one is to the solar panel charger bus. 

Dan,

  How have these "MARINCO
ConnectPro Trolling Motor Plug & Receptacle connectors" (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/148391/10001/316/124/9) held up?  Have you had any corrosion on them>?

(http://images.westmarine.com/full/1422591.jpg)

  I am having a tough time with the idea of a $50 connector....  :P

Thanks,

I went through the same search when I put the charging coil on my Honda 5 for the Potter. I ended up just using the quality cigarette lighter plug.
Have you looked at the trailer light plugs like this?

(http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/images/CHRM121BP.jpg)

Or is that the one you were speaking of? ::)

Quote from: Tim on August 29, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
I went through the same search when I put the charging coil on my Honda 5 for the Potter. I ended up just using the quality cigarette lighter plug.
Have you looked at the trailer light plugs like this?

(http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/images/CHRM121BP.jpg)

Or is that the one you were speaking of? ::)

That looks like what I have been using.

  How is the cigarette lighter plug working for you?  I bought one of those fancy ones at the Boaters World clearance, and will upgrade to it for the anchor light.  I would love to hear yours is working well in for what I want to use it for.

The plug works fine for me, but my use is probably very different than yours. On my Potter it only goes on when I am out cruising in a place like Desolation sound where the sun don't shine but the motor doth run.
Otherwise it is disconnected at both ends and stored. Rarely has it seen any weather or sun.

Have you looked at Anderson Powerpoles? They aren't exactly "marine" but are used in a lot of nasty conditions in emergency communications. Take a look at http://www.ocraces.org/powerpole.html for the "standard" ham radio configuration. With a little Googling you should be able to find them for about 10USD / half-dozen if I remember right.

Jeff,

 I hope you don't mind my replying to your PM here on the forum.  The combined opinions of many beats the opinion of one.... at least mostly.  

 The energy question is one that will vary more by the Sailor and territory then by the boat (IMHO).

 The 'Energy budget' is a useful tool to build your energy system around, and to manage your use once you are underway.

 Can you really afford to run your laptop as a backup navigation system like some hope to do?  The energy budget (once validated) separates fact from fiction.... (not unless you have a lot of capacity!)

 The energy budget is an estimate of how much energy you are likely to use in a day.  You will need to oversize this, as there will be times you exceed the budget, and you should not plan to discharge your storage bank below 50% capacity or you will shorten it's life.

Quote...Do you have any recommendations for solar panels, wind generators, and or gensets? I purchased a 245ah agm 8d battery(What do you have?). I will be running a blower, bilge, nav and cabin lights, vhf, ssb, Raymarine E80 series superpack...plotter, depth sounder and such. Also a laptop and possibly a weather fax. Would that battery be enough or do I need more power? I am trying to design my electrical system to be streamlined for cruising, including a monitoring system, which one i have no idea. A charging system that includes solar, wind, and alternator. I want to set up for shore power with an inverter, but if that's too much then I'll wait. How do you have your system set, is it working well for you?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Jeff

 Take all of your electronic gear and look for the published current draw.  I put mine into a spread sheet and estimated the time in two categories, underway and on the hook.

 Multiply the amps x the time expected and you will get the amp hours.

One 500ma anchor light burning from dusk to dawn (~12 hours) = 6 amp hours (ah).

 Be very suspicious of some energy use claims.  Your Laptop is a power hog (unless one of the new netbook's do a search for real numbers).

Let's say your laptop running through the inverter draws 8 amps.  If you use it for 4 hours (check email, look at a chart, re-load the Ipod, and watch a DVD).  There went 32 amp hours.

 Some devices are going to be on pretty much all the time.  The VHF, GPS, and other misc gear may run all day but thankfully they draw relatively little.

 Refrigeration is a real pig, even if you use an efficient little unit like my Engle, you are running it ALL THE TIME.  If you can get by without it, or figure out how to just use it to chill thee vening beverage for an hour before you set the hook you will be ahead of the curve.

 Re-read this thread from the beginning, much of what I am tempted to go into has already been covered here.


 You decide to budget for 40ah.  Your battery capacity must be at least 2x that, and your charging system needs to be equal to the task... but should probably be more like 150% to minimize the stress.

 I like my link 10 battery monitor.  Keeping track of the amps used by watching a gauge is too much work for me, plus there is another factor called pukert's exponent which causes larger loads to drain the batteries faster... the link 10 knows all that and can either express the energy used in terms of amp hours of percentage of capacity.

 Lets say you come up with 35ah underway, and 42ah on the hook.... you want something like 200 ah of capacity, and need to be able to charge at something greater then 50ah.

 Solar is widely considered to be the most reliable producer, and best amp / dollar investment.  It is not cheap, but once installed is mostly maintenance free, and with a proper regulator can go on and on without much attention.

 The problem is that the sun is not always shining.  If your 120w panel is putting out it's 10 amps it is only for a fraction of the day.  You can increase this number with a movable mount like James Baldwin uses on Atom (http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/solartracker.htm).  Tough to day what you are going to get, but 30ah would be an optimistic estimate.

 I get a couple of amps out of my outboard's charger but we don't run it reliably enough to really count on the output.  I think they say it is 60w, but output is dependent on the batteries accepting the charge.  

 This is a big deal.  Just like your automotive battery charger your charging system is only going to charge as fast as the batteries allow.  New thin cell batteries claim to get around this but your 8d battery is 'old school' and will charge fast when partially discharged but more slowly as it the percentage of charge increases.

 Your Atomic 4, even with the smaller alternator will contribute to the mix, but your )hopefully) not going to run it every day.

 I made an error in my calculations and was cruising when I discovered it.  I had bought some Sunlinq panels and found they are garbage.  They made no where near their stated output and I took them down.  I ended up bringing a honda 1000 generator onboard that we used to make up the loss.

 Wind generators are expensive and most are noisy.  They do make energy at night, and as long as the wind blows you generally get something of the stated output.  I am looking into the little Rutland (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0), but can not find anyone to say they have actually used it cruising and can recommend it.

 Some advocate the 'towed' generator, I don't see much utility in it.  Maybe if you were doing a long distance race, or trying to set some record... but most cruisers do more staying then sailing.  Generating power only while underway does not seem to be a great investment to me... and probably others too since you only see a couple of towed generators on the market today.  Again, re-read this thread and search this forum.

 This post is way too long, so I am going to stop typing now.   ;D  

Welcome to SailFar.  I am on many forums, but this is home.  Many of the other sites tend to talk down to small boat Sailors or offer advice that does not really suit our boats.  Human nature is to defend one's choices... so I do not object to their opinions.  I do find that more here offer opinions based on the realities of small boat sailing.

 





 

 

 



 


 

Quote from: Auspicious on August 29, 2009, 03:01:34 PM
Have you looked at Anderson Powerpoles? They aren't exactly "marine" but are used in a lot of nasty conditions in emergency communications. Take a look at http://www.ocraces.org/powerpole.html for the "standard" ham radio configuration. With a little Googling you should be able to find them for about 10USD / half-dozen if I remember right.

Dave,

  These look nice, I will check around.  Thanks

QuoteHighly conductive silver-plated copper contacts allow minimal contact resistance at high currents. Self-wiping action on make and break keeps conducting surfaces clean. Contact dents keep connectors mated in high-vibration applications and provide quick-break, snap action upon disconnect.

Non-corrosive stainless-steel leaf springs maintain constant contact pressure—ideal for frequent connections/disconnections and intermittent overloading. Durable, high impact-resistant, polycarbonate housing with UL94V-2 flammability ratings comes in many colors for circuit trace ability and coding.

Identical connector halves are genderless—making assembly quick and easy and reducing the number of parts stocked. Molded-in dovetails allow for customized harness in a variety of configurations. When the connectors are disconnected, no metal parts are exposed.

Quote from: s/v Faith on August 29, 2009, 03:33:07 PM
Jeff,

 I hope you don't mind my replying to your PM here on the forum.  The combined opinions of many beats the opinion of one.... at least mostly.  

 The energy question is one that will vary more by the Sailor and territory then by the boat (IMHO).

 The 'Energy budget' is a useful tool to build your energy system around, and to manage your use once you are underway.

 Can you really afford to run your laptop as a backup navigation system like some hope to do?  The energy budget (once validated) separates fact from fiction.... (not unless you have a lot of capacity!)

 The energy budget is an estimate of how much energy you are likely to use in a day.  You will need to oversize this, as there will be times you exceed the budget, and you should not plan to discharge your storage bank below 50% capacity or you will shorten it's life.

Quote...Do you have any recommendations for solar panels, wind generators, and or gensets? I purchased a 245ah agm 8d battery(What do you have?). I will be running a blower, bilge, nav and cabin lights, vhf, ssb, Raymarine E80 series superpack...plotter, depth sounder and such. Also a laptop and possibly a weather fax. Would that battery be enough or do I need more power? I am trying to design my electrical system to be streamlined for cruising, including a monitoring system, which one i have no idea. A charging system that includes solar, wind, and alternator. I want to set up for shore power with an inverter, but if that's too much then I'll wait. How do you have your system set, is it working well for you?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Jeff

QuoteTake all of your electronic gear and look for the published current draw.  I put mine into a spread sheet and estimated the time in two categories, underway and on the hook.

 Multiply the amps x the time expected and you will get the amp hours.

One 500ma anchor light burning from dusk to dawn (~12 hours) = 6 amp hours (ah).

 Be very suspicious of some energy use claims.  Your Laptop is a power hog (unless one of the new netbook's do a search for real numbers).

Let's say your laptop running through the inverter draws 8 amps.  If you use it for 4 hours (check email, look at a chart, re-load the Ipod, and watch a DVD).  There went 32 amp hours.

 Some devices are going to be on pretty much all the time.  The VHF, GPS, and other misc gear may run all day but thankfully they draw relatively little.

 Refrigeration is a real pig, even if you use an efficient little unit like my Engle, you are running it ALL THE TIME.  If you can get by without it, or figure out how to just use it to chill thee vening beverage for an hour before you set the hook you will be ahead of the curve.

 Re-read this thread from the beginning, much of what I am tempted to go into has already been covered here.


 You decide to budget for 40ah.  Your battery capacity must be at least 2x that, and your charging system needs to be equal to the task... but should probably be more like 150% to minimize the stress.

 I like my link 10 battery monitor.  Keeping track of the amps used by watching a gauge is too much work for me, plus there is another factor called pukert's exponent which causes larger loads to drain the batteries faster... the link 10 knows all that and can either express the energy used in terms of amp hours of percentage of capacity.

 Lets say you come up with 35ah underway, and 42ah on the hook.... you want something like 200 ah of capacity, and need to be able to charge at something greater then 50ah.

 Solar is widely considered to be the most reliable producer, and best amp / dollar investment.  It is not cheap, but once installed is mostly maintenance free, and with a proper regulator can go on and on without much attention.

 The problem is that the sun is not always shining.  If your 120w panel is putting out it's 10 amps it is only for a fraction of the day.  You can increase this number with a movable mount like James Baldwin uses on Atom (http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/solartracker.htm).  Tough to day what you are going to get, but 30ah would be an optimistic estimate.

 I get a couple of amps out of my outboard's charger but we don't run it reliably enough to really count on the output.  I think they say it is 60w, but output is dependent on the batteries accepting the charge.  

 This is a big deal.  Just like your automotive battery charger your charging system is only going to charge as fast as the batteries allow.  New thin cell batteries claim to get around this but your 8d battery is 'old school' and will charge fast when partially discharged but more slowly as it the percentage of charge increases.

 Your Atomic 4, even with the smaller alternator will contribute to the mix, but your )hopefully) not going to run it every day.

 I made an error in my calculations and was cruising when I discovered it.  I had bought some Sunlinq panels and found they are garbage.  They made no where near their stated output and I took them down.  I ended up bringing a honda 1000 generator onboard that we used to make up the loss.

 Wind generators are expensive and most are noisy.  They do make energy at night, and as long as the wind blows you generally get something of the stated output.  I am looking into the little Rutland (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0), but can not find anyone to say they have actually used it cruising and can recommend it.

 Some advocate the 'towed' generator, I don't see much utility in it.  Maybe if you were doing a long distance race, or trying to set some record... but most cruisers do more staying then sailing.  Generating power only while underway does not seem to be a great investment to me... and probably others too since you only see a couple of towed generators on the market today.  Again, re-read this thread and search this forum.

 This post is way too long, so I am going to stop typing now.   ;D  

Welcome to SailFar.  I am on many forums, but this is home.  Many of the other sites tend to talk down to small boat Sailors or offer advice that does not really suit our boats.  Human nature is to defend one's choices... so I do not object to their opinions.  I do find that more here offer opinions based on the realities of small boat sailing.

Craig, thank you for the info. A little short though.

Regards,

Jeff

 





 

 

 



 


 

Jeff,

QuoteCraig, thank you for the info. A little short though.

Regards,

Jeff

Ok, a few questions and a bit more.


 So, no refrigeration?  What are your intended cruising grounds?

8D battery (10" x 10" x 20") and heavy as all get out (but probably not much more then my 2 T-105's)

QuoteModel   UB-8D AGM
Weight   167  :o
Volts   12
Amp-Hour   250

 With no refrigeration, and assuming a reasonable (non-nav) use of the laptop I bet this will be good.

Do you plan a separate starting battery or are you staying KISS?

 Can you afford ~ $1500 - $2000?

If so a http://Kyocera Solar KD-135 135 Watt 12 Volt Solar Electric Panel[/img] ($415 which is a steal) mounted on the stern rail

(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/wind-sun_2067_3667051)


with a[url=http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/rutland913.html] Rutland 913  (http://store.solar-electric.com/kyso130wa12v.html)on a mount pole would probably be enough. ($895, plus pole, which I would fabricate locally, and regulator).

(http://www.emarineinc.com/products/wind_generators/windimages/913.jpg)

If you wanted to have a fall back position I might fit a larger capacity alternator.  I would not carry a portable generator if I had an inboard.. but that is just me.

  Of course these are suggestions for you to consider.  I am not the one that is going to be stuck out there in the shipping channel with no nav lights and unable to start my inboard.   ;D

darn, forgot...


I saw a reefer I liked in BWS July 2009 by Engel-USA http://www.engel-usa.com/mt35.htm (http://www.engel-usa.com/mt35.htm), it's the MT35. I would like to set up the electrical system with an inverter, but I don't know if I'm going overboard or not. They are expensive as well. I will have a starter battery as well. I already bought a Blue Seas 8- position DC panel, battery switch and ACR. I can save for that, but after I came back from Iraq, I bought my boat, bought some goodies, then was diagnosed with cancer. I'm all good now, but my savings went to killing cancer. So I will have to save for those two items. They're needed so they're important. I still need to design the whole electrical system, that ought to be interesting. My cruising grounds...hmmmm. Well I'm going to initially head out to Marathon, FL or around there and grab a mooring for cheap and save and finish getting the girl cruise ready. Then I thought I would cruise the Caribbean for a long while and then after a year or 2, head through the canal to the Pacific. Lofty goals huh?

Jeff

QuoteI would like to set up the electrical system with an inverter, but I don't know if I'm going overboard or not.

 The inverter is ok, as long as you only use it for AC only loads.... and as few as you can.  I have a few, keep in mind that a 1000w inverter is much less efficient for a 50w load then a 60w inverter.

 What do you need to run on the inverter?  

The Engle is a great unit, I think the 35 uses the same compressor as my 27.  I run mine on '1' and it draws 2.7a IIRC when it is running.  It runs more when you are in hotter climates then cooler.  Also depends on how often you open the lid.

 You can find wind generators used from time to time.  Just do your research since most that have been around long enough to be for sale used are too darn loud to live with unless you are deaf.

 The Solar panels are next to impossible to get any kind of deal on used.

I think it is worth while to get some things new, to reduce the chance of failure 'out there'.



Might surf around here to look at alternatives to the refrigeration thing... Lots of small boat Sailors do without and get used to it.

QuoteLofty goals huh?

  Not at all.  Few here will.  That is one of the differences between this and some of the other forums.   ;D

I thought I would need the inverter for my laptop? I know about the luxury of a reefer. But There I go reading those god forsaking sail magazines and they had an article about catching and cleaning fish to stay on the cheap, something I believe in, but to do that effectively, I need to be able to freeze or chill the extra fish for future meals. Not meaning to overburden you Craig, but your boat is basically the same size, where do you fit everything, like a stove, reefer and such. I haven't decided if I'm putting a stove in or just using a burner like James Baldwin did.

Jeff

A small inverter for the laptop is a necessary evil.  That is unless you get one of the new netbook laptops.  Read more about them here. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=1268.80)

WRT stoves take a look at this link. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?board=11.0)

  There are a bunch of knowledgeable Sailors here, and lots of good info to read through.  I am happy to help in any way I can but you might use the search function to benefit from the combined experience here.

 

You could dry the fish instead of freezing it.

I second the powerpole suggestion.

If you use 12 to 14 gauge wire, get the 30 amp pack.

http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/30-amp-red-black-anderson-powerpole-sets.html

I use these as trailer connectors and on an electric bicycle.  After a long search for decent dc electric connectors, these came out on top.

Plase support wires a sclose to termination as possible to help solver problems at termination.

An inverter isn't a necessity for a laptop, since many can be run with a DC-based power supply.  Targus, iPower, and several other companies make DC-based adapters for many brands of laptops.  These are often more efficient than using an inverter and the AC-based power supply for the laptop, since you have less in the way of conversion losses.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on August 30, 2009, 01:47:18 PM
An inverter isn't a necessity for a laptop, since many can be run with a DC-based power supply.  Targus, iPower, and several other companies make DC-based adapters for many brands of laptops.  These are often more efficient than using an inverter and the AC-based power supply for the laptop, since you have less in the way of conversion losses.

  Yes, they do make them.  Here is a link for one for my boat laptop (http://www.laptoptravel.com/Adapter.aspx?ID=3592&t=1).    It costs $99 dollars, and the increase in DC voltage is accomplished by changing the DC to ac (as an inverter does) and then rectifying it back to DC at the higher voltage.  It might be a bit more efficient then the standard power supply running on an inverter, but I doubt it is efficient enough to be worth $99.... IMHO.

(http://www.laptoptravel.com/images/product_images/lindautoh.jpg)

I just found $16 dc converter for my MSI  netbook. Though I am a little hesitant because the only thing MSI sells is a universal for $70, I am going ahead but checking voltage output before using it.

Jeff,
Where are you now? I live in Richmond Hill, Ga just off the ICW. If you want to lay over here you are welcome to anchor here or tie to my boat at my dock while you work on your boat. The cost here is very good...Free! We completely rebuilt the interior of my boat and refitted the rigging. James Baldwin keeps Atom anchored here next to my dock. Many individuals rent space at the condo docks at St. Simons which is where James works on boats.  You can work on your boat there and get James' advice or get him to do some of the work. Dan

Craig,
Thanks for the tip on the 135 watt solar panel. I am headed down on the dock with my tape measure to see if it will fit where my 80 watt is or if I can place it somewhere else. Dan

I was surprised at the price too Dan,

  Hard to go wrong with that one.  ;)

Man, Psyche was already pretty well 'decked out' when I saw her.  You are not saving yourself any work to do... what are you going to do with your time while you are cruising?   ;D ;)

Quote from: psyche on August 30, 2009, 07:29:11 PM
Jeff,
Where are you now? I live in Richmond Hill, Ga just off the ICW. If you want to lay over here you are welcome to anchor here or tie to my boat at my dock while you work on your boat. The cost here is very good...Free! We completely rebuilt the interior of my boat and refitted the rigging. James Baldwin keeps Atom anchored here next to my dock. Many individuals rent space at the condo docks at St. Simons which is where James works on boats.  You can work on your boat there and get James' advice or get him to do some of the work. Dan

Hi Dan,

I live in the Great State of Connecticut! I am in intermittent contact with James Baldwin, as a matter of fact I'm waiting for a response to an email now.  That is an extremely generous offer, I was considering going down to where James was, but wanted to find out how much he charged hourly.  I just might take you up on the offer though.  It wouldn't be until next summer the earliest because I still need to do the bottom painting, electrical, and get the Atomic 4 running. But let me reiterate, that is a very generous offer, thanks Dan.

Jeff

I could use some advice:


As a cheap skate I'm looking for the biggest bang for the buck.

I want to build a versatile charging system that can be added to as needed.  I'll start with a couple solar panels, but then I need a battery charger/maintenance setup that doesn't overcharge my batteries.  The system also needs to be as close to plug and play with shore powered battery chargers, inverters, wind generators (if I find one cheap).  My inboard is gone, but I do have an electric start Nissan hanging off the back that can be used for power in a pinch.  The old atomic has been pulled out and I plan on putting 2-3 batteries there in it's place, freeing up the salon storage area.  I want the ability to be completely free from shorepower without running an engine.

So far my power requirements consist of:

-1-2 laptops
-Incandescent nav lights
-Car stereo radio setup with 4 speakers
-Humminbird depth sounder
-Incandescent interior lights
-2 fans
-Automotive fog lights used as spreader lights
-Outboard has a pull start also so I'm not figuring it into my power consumption.

Future wants  (not needs) (not in any order)

- Refrigeration even if it is one of those ice cooler looking models.
-Heater for interior
-Possible hot water
-microwave
-GPS other than my hand held

Most of my power consumption is at night, so what battery size will last all night for my needs.  Thanks

I wish I could help, but I am electrically challenged.
However, I did pick up a "shed light" 4 watt solar powered unit at Harbour Fr (I think it was $25).  The solar unit goes on the stern pulpit and the "shed light" plugs in to a cord running to the power unit so it can be rigged under the bimini.  
I also bought the stainless steel solar garden lights. They only have 1 LED in them and cast very little light. I put one on a boarding side stanchion so people know which boat is mine at the dock. Pretty, but not very much light.

Piraten I think you need to do a full energy budget in order to assess what your true needs will be. There are a number of good books on the subject ones by Don Casey and Nigel Calder just to name a couple. My guess is given the loads you are talking about production would be as big a problem as storage without a generator aboard.

After rereading my post I think I'm asking the wrong question.  So let me try again.

1. I want to be able to charge 2-3 batteries at a time which will be my main house bank.
2. I want to be able to add charging systems as time and money become available without having to rebuy controllers/chargers and stuff.
3. As I get power greedy for other cool toys, charging system easily added to.
4. Every system stand alone so that if one fails, I'm not powerless.

EX:
Right now I use a battery charger at the dock to charge my batteries.  Good for a daysail/1 night, then I'm coming back to the dock with a handheld VHF and no depth sounder because my batteries are dead.

Currently I have three different types of batteries.  One stand alone for the outboard.  One deep cycle house, and one that used to start the atomic 4.  All batteries are going to be moved to where the inboard used to be.  All batteries will be changed to a standard size and deep cycle for the house bank and the stand alone for the outboard will be moved there too.

At least one solar panel will be added to the boat.  I'd like it to be a stand alone system and monitor itself to the battery charging.  If I run two panels, I'd like each one isolated from eachother so if one panel/brain box goes bad, it doesn't shut the whole solar charging system down.

If I find a wind generator at a deal I can't pass up, I'd like to run it seperately to the battery for charging.

The systems that I've seen run all the different charging types through a central brain, but if that brain goes bad, you're screwed. 

So my question is, is it worth having each panel on it's own charge controller and hooked to a central bus that goes to the batteries, or is it better to have all the power sources (panels/wind/tow generator) go through a central controller?

The easiest would be to have a charge controller and solar panel(s) for each battery bank. 

It may be difficult to find room for three solar panels.

Can you start the outboard with the battery for the Atomic 4?  That would reduce the number of battery banks and simplify things a bit.

For the motor starting battery, the following system should be adequate:
http://store.solar-electric.com/poup10wa12vo.html
http://store.solar-electric.com/sg-4.html

For the house bank, it depends on size of the bank and your power use.  For a somewhat stingy power use the following would work:
http://store.solar-electric.com/kc-40.html
http://store.solar-electric.com/ss-10l.html
The controller is oversized and would allow you to add additional 12V panels up to a total of 120W.
Look at the dimensions of the solar panel and make sure you have a place to mount it.  You may wish to have a more rectangular shape than a square to fit your mount location.

These panel/controller systems are smart chargers and you can install them and forget about them, they will keep working for years.  The batteries seem to like this type of charge and they also will have a long life when they are topped up a bit with power every day.

I am going to merge this into the other power / energy budget thread.  I recommend you go back and read through it, as there are many ways to skin this cat and many of them have been discussed here in the past.  Lots of good info here to think about.

Especially look at making an energy budget.  Here is a post in this thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=33.msg27211#msg27211) that (attempts) to explain how to do that.

Just a couple of points.

1.  KISS. Keeping your power system simple will decrease cost and increase efficiency.  It is easy to loose sight of the fact that electricity is not required to sail.  Critical uses might be seen as navigation, and being visible to other traffic at night.  Does your GPS also have batteries?  Do you have a good flashlight to shine on the sails in worst case?  Manual bilge pump>?  If the answer is yes your power supply is not going to sink your boat or get you killed.  If the answer is no, you might want to re-consider.

2.  Minimize loads.  LED's make a HUGE difference in your energy budget.  Running a 1.25a anchor light for 12 hours wipes out the output of a 60w solar panel on an overcast day.  Replace it with an LED and you are good of 4 or 5 days on the same charge.... maybe twice that.

QuoteSo far my power requirements consist of:

-1-2 laptops
-Incandescent nav lights
-Car stereo radio setup with 4 speakers
-Humminbird depth sounder
-Incandescent interior lights
-2 fans
-Automotive fog lights used as spreader lights
-Outboard has a pull start also so I'm not figuring it into my power consumption.

Future wants  (not needs) (not in any order)

- Refrigeration even if it is one of those ice cooler looking models.
-Heater for interior
-Possible hot water
-microwave
-GPS other than my hand held

Running a microwave is going to increase the stakes considerably.  Even the short term use will draw a lot of amps (requires a big inverter).  

Electric heaters and electric hot water heaters are pure inductive loads... HUGE users of electricity.  Unless you are going to install and run a 5k genset, you should look at other fuels for heat.

I think there have been discussions about most of the other loads you mention.  The owners manual lists the approximate current use of some specific gear (like your fishfinder).

From someone currently out cruising- Using a single 32 watt solar panel for charging, and a pair of group 27 batteries. We used to cruise for up to 14 days with a single gropp 27 and NO charging. Laura has been aboard the boat for 9 weeks now, and I joined her 5 week ago. After five very cloudy days, and three very hot nights when we ran the fan,  we ran the batteries ALMOST down and used shore power and a charger to recharge. First time in 4 years of cruising this boat, which includes two round trips between Texas and Florida

Get rid of any incandescent lights you possibly can, particularly anchor lights and interior cabin lights. LEDS are MUCH more efficient. Bebi Electronics in Figi has an EXCELLENT anchor light that uses LED's

We have a kerosene cabin light we often use when we aren't reading- just to light up the cabin- works great. In fact on our first cruise to Florida and return that's all the interior lights we had.

Dump one of the two laptops- you REALY won't need two. We have one aboard and use it seldomly, usually only when we are somewhere where WIFI is availble,, or if we need to check a chart we already have downloaded.

Simply forget about everything in your second list, except possibly for the GPS- you really don't need that stuff. Hot water is much more efficiently gotten by solar or heating a teapot on the stove, when needed. In fact we use ice and zero food that requires refrigeration. We find we eat very well, and should we not be able to find ice, it's no big deal. Depending on refrigeration will wind you up in some port waiting for parts- Gauranteed.

A micro wave would really suck power.

My serious advice to you, as a long term cruiser on a smaller boat, is to forget about as much electrical stuff as you possibly can- in the long run, you'll be happier and find you can stay away longer from civilization. Keep the boat as simple as you possibly can.

I'd like to swap everything to LED, but the prices for replacement fixtures and bulbs would set me back quite a bit, that'll be a slow conversion.  Anchor light on the top of the mast will be first replacement.  The second list was just the "wanting" wishlist, I know I don't need any of it.  And yes, I know that a huge charging system and storage bank is way more expensive than a full out LED conversion.

Skylark,
The battery that used to be for the atomic is going bye bye.


The house bank will be 2-3 deeps, the engine bank will just be one small normal start battery hooked to the original "1,2,off, all" switch.  That way I can use it if the house bank craps out at the wrong time.  Since the engine charges its own battery, I won't be using a outside source to charge that one.


Charliej,
My problem with giving up all my elctrical toys at once is that I still have land lubber mentality and don't want to go from one extreme to another and then hate sailing because of the association.

On the other standpoint, my wife and two kids have spent the last two days on the boat,  the engine battery is the only one that is good, the other two crapped out ten minutes after leaving the dock, they were going bad anyway.  Had a great time with absolutely no house power.

An anchor light and a good reading light may be all the LED lamps you need.  Those are the ones that get the most use, and you can use incandescents for a short time for things like cooking or cleaning up.

Quote from: skylark on September 06, 2009, 09:04:10 PM
An anchor light and a good reading light may be all the LED lamps you need.  Those are the ones that get the most use, and you can use incandescents for a short time for things like cooking or cleaning up.

Yup.  Your energy budget will tell you where your biggest drains are and where you will get your best bang for the buck.

I remember reading about a squirrel cage style wind generator somewhere but can't find it again.  It was supposed to be VERY quite.  It had a dimensions of something like 12"x12"x18".  It put out like 300w.  Anybody know where I can find info on it?

I must point out that I am NOT a fan of anchor lights on top of the mast- In my opinion, that's absolutely
the worst place for one.

This based on several years of live aboard and anchoring out for many many nights. In fact, we once went an entire year without the boat ever touching a dock.

Colregs states a location " in the fore part of the vessel where it can best be seen".

I feel that the mast head is a spot where the very people you should be concerned with- local fishermen types, won''t be looking- they tend to look across the water surface. We hang ours on the forestay or on a bungee running from mast to upper shroud, just above or at eye level to us. In the normal anchorage, I'm not at all concerned about whether a ship can see us.

CharlieJ,

While I understand your point, I wonder what the over abundance of law agencies in FLorida would have to say.  If your mast is in the way of seeing the light, then they can technically say it can't be viewed 360 degrees and write a ticket.  I would think a mast head and then a lower eye level one might be in order.  I have a really nice oil anchor light that was passed to me by my parents, it'd give me a good excuse to actually use it.

My masthead light doesn't even work. No plans to fix it. Our plan is to get the Bebi Owl light for an anchor light like Charlie has. From what I understand they are so bright that you will see the boat any way.  I don't care if a ship sees me or not its the shrimper and power boaters that I worry about.

We have two small led lanterns from Wal-Mart for cabin lights. I'm looking for one that is even brighter to read by. Wal-Mart had one that would run for 500 hours before needing batteries. They are out right now.

Nav lights, VHF and depth sounder is our only power drain. We now have a 20 watt solar panel that keeps the group 27 battery up even when I leave the vhf and depth sounder on all night.  Plan on getting one more 20 watt panel that will give me 3.4 amps per hour charging during the day. Would like to get a notebook and a garmin 276cxs chart plotter. That would be the end of my power needs.

KISS

Battery bank question.

-I just bought two 24s, the only thing that fit in the space allowed.

-My outboard starting battery currently resides in a cockpit locker, it's doing to be moved at a later time.

-I have one of those 1-2-off-all switches

My question is, would it be better to keep the two house batteries seperate and use them as 1+2 or put them in parallel using postion 1 and put the outboard battery on 2.

Put the two house bank batteries in parallel.

Quote from: s/v Faith on August 29, 2009, 04:25:21 PM

If so a http://Kyocera Solar KD-135 135 Watt 12 Volt Solar Electric Panel[/img] ($415 which is a steal) mounted on the stern rail

(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/wind-sun_2067_3667051).....
(http://store.solar-electric.com/kyso130wa12v.html)

Man, this was SUCH a great deal I just can't pass it up.  I just ordered one, and would recommend anyone looking for  a panel to consider doing the same.  Last time I priced these panels they were ~$700!

Was browsing some online cruising stories the other week and ran across one site where the electrical system was described in detail.  Since I have been working on energy budget considerations lately, I found their 160 amp-hour per day budget simply fascinating.  The following charging system was NOT able to match load:

• 100 Amp alternator on engine, ran at ~85 amps for 1.5 hours per day
• two 85 watt solar panels, gave average of 40 amp-hours per day (concluded he will need at least two more panels just to meet refrigeration demand); this was in well lit Caribbean.
• wind generator giving average 3-15 amps in 'normal' winds

His conclusion:  A diesel generator is required to meet his charging needs.

Question for cruisers (been asked before, I'm sure...like some updated numbers):

What are your REAL WORLD energy budgets...what electrical requirements have you actually seen while away from shore power for extended periods (say at least a week as a minimum)?

Charlie, you gave some info above..any update/modification of that?

For our part, our single biggest draw underway is navigation lights, and LEDs are in the plan for that. 

ROFL- I'm totally slack jawed at that!!

We use a single 32 watt flexible panel mounted on the aft half of the Bimini.. We've been aboard now, full time for something like 6 months. In that time we haves resorted to shore power recharging twice. Both times to prollonged cloudy weather durinng this crummy Fl winter.

We use LED lighting inside, with one exception. That's a 5 1/2 inch incandescent right over the stove and it's going LED just as soon as we locate the appropriate bulb. Every time we've
looked, they've been out of stock. We do have halogen running lights but soo far that hasn't been a problem. We intend to cut over to LED's as finances permit though.


We use an LED anchor light (from Bebi Electornics in Fiji) which is low draw and extremely bright. So bright that we often have oher cruisers asking for info on it. I KNOW Bebi has sold at least four others due to us-grin

Now I must also add- we run a small oil lamp for general cabin lighting at night. We don't read by it but do all else from it's light. Since we use an oil stove to cook on we already have the fuel.

Also we don't use refrigeration of any sort. We did use ice for a while but it gets to be not worth it. We realized all we were keeping cold was drinks, so we quit buying it. Laura just recently canned 26 half pints of various meats so we're good to go there for a while. That can be replenishd at any time too, since she does the canning aboard.

I've learned that good beer really is pretty good at bilge temps- I wouldn't bother wwith something like Bud though.

So I suppose we are ( quite happily) at the other end of the power
spectrum-BIG grin

edited to add- I WOULD like more solar capabilities. Either a second panel same size or one of the newer more potent ones. When finances allow, we'll upgrade. And Laura can't STAND the sounds of a wind generator so it's unlikely we'll go that route.

Harbor Freight has a small gen set, a 9 amp unit which my neighbor bought;  ;)tried it out and it ran, my 6" orbital sander, my 3/8" drill motor and would produce 6 amps using my battery charger.   will run all day on less than a gallon of gas. All for $159. If u have a outboard on board, it would be hard to beat since u'r carrying gas anyway.
Just one sailors thoughts
geneWj

Gene, was it this one? (pic attached)

If so, how noisy is it? Can you give us an idea as to its dimensions?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66619

I looked at one of these at Harbor Freight just a couple of days ago. They have it on sale for $109.00. Only problem I could see is that this one recommended a gas oil mix of 40:1. My outboard uses a mix of 50:1.

I also wonder how noisy it is. The Honda 2000 is very quite.

I was on the boat for 6 weeks last fall. I have 4 golf carts and 2 -130watt panels. I had plenty of power and only had to run the generator if the weather was cloudy for 2 days or so. I was cooking with electric and would run the generator if i was using the convection oven for baking or roasting. For cooking for short periods,(eggs,coffee,tea etc. I would use the inverter) I was on the NYS Canal system so when I was on the move the engine did the charging--I do not have a high output alternator (55 amps). Although it was fall at several  times I saw 15 amps going to the batteries at anchor from the sun. The only problem I had with my electric hot plate was that it did not get very hot, I am trying to find a halogen hot plate. It was ok for some things but not for everything. If i can not find one i will switch to propane cooking. I expect to spend the next year on the boat,starting in May if my health holds up. I intend to continue with electric, if I can not find a halogen hot plate, then I will switch--splash time is getting closer--50 deg. today, snow is melting

A quick math exercise tells me that adding about 3/4 oz. of oil to your existing 50-1 gas/oil mix for your motor should allow you to use that in the generator, so I don't see that as a major issue. Someone else might want to check my calcs.
That little generator is a neat idea. Wonder how well it holds up.

Shouldn't be much of an issue. I'm willing to be that your outboard would run just fine on a 40:1 mix.

Quote from: Grime on March 05, 2010, 01:46:35 PM
I looked at one of these at Harbor Freight just a couple of days ago. They have it on sale for $109.00. Only problem I could see is that this one recommended a gas oil mix of 40:1. My outboard uses a mix of 50:1.

I also wonder how noisy it is. The Honda 2000 is very quite.

Thanks guys,

The only reason I'm thinking of a generator is the wife has to have her sewing machine with us when we leave here. I think she would give me up before leaving her sewing behind.

I can't get her to sew a darn thing for the boat.

Quote from: AdriftAtSea on March 06, 2010, 10:22:12 AM

Shouldn't be much of an issue. I'm willing to be that your outboard would run just fine on a 40:1 mix.

I don't know what kind of ob this is, but I do know that in every model of Johnson that I have read Manufacturer's Shop Manuals for, they specifically recommend AGAINST doing this kind of thing - even just a little bit.

For what it's worth...

Craig/Faith is a certifi(able ;)) outboard mechanic (Yamaha?), and he told me that the leaner oil/fuel mixes were mostly due to EPA mandates WRT what was coming out of the engine post-combustion, that running an o/b richer with oil (to a degree, of course) is actually *better* for the outboard in the long haul.

IIRC, of course. Maybe he'll put us straight on this, but the only issue that I think it might cause is fouling plugs a bit more/frequently, and I don't think that little bit would make too much difference.

(How unequivocal is THIS post? ;D )

CapnK?

That was my understanding as well.  And having it a little richer in oil strikes me as a far better option than having it too low in oil.  One will damage the engine permanently, the other will not.

A couple of points before Dan makes his 3000th post.. Yea Dan!  ;D

Quote from: Mr. Fixit on March 05, 2010, 10:09:30 PM
I was on the boat for 6 weeks last fall. I have 4 golf carts and 2 -130watt panels......snow is melting

  Wow, I can hardly fit a dingy onboard... 4 golf carts?  Really?  Wow!  That is really something!   ;)

I was a Yamaha/Honda motorcycle & ATV mechanic in the 80's, we worked on pretty much everything Yamaha made other then the musical equipment.  Our training was done in modules, and I recall the tech rep teaching us about the evils of alcohol in fuel... in 1985. He also told us that the Yamaha 2 strokes were going from 50:1 to 100:1 . but that we could / should continue to run them at 50:1.  IIRC, the jets were changed to run a bit richer when they went to 100:1 to allow more of the fuel with less oil to get into the motor.  IIRC the tech rep said fuel mixed 100:1 was only good for something silly like 45 days!

  If anyone here have ever messed with British seagulls, you know that some motors can run on 20:1, or you can change the jet and needle and run it on 32:1.

  Keep in mind there are 4 considerations, really 5, that come into play with a 2 stroke motor.  The oil not only lubricates the 1.) top end, it also 2.) lubricates the lower end and 3.) increases the octane of the fuel, all while 4.) changing the damping of the reed valve(s). and last but far from least you are 5. Changing the flow characteristics of the the motor... the volumetric efficiency, the scavenging port utilization, even the exhaust efficiency (especially when unburnt oil builds up).

  Wow, all that from Sonny Meyers (Team Yamaha tuner back in early 70's) port and polish lessons from my youth....  ;D

I'm trying to figure out where he stashed the two 130 watt panels.  I've got two on my boat, but my boat is 18' wide...

The two solar panels are on a hard dodger--I think I posted a picture of this set up. The 4 golf carts are located in the same place that the trans for the atomic 4 was located. I gained a lot of room by converting to a Volvo and saildrive. They fit under the steps to the cockpit

Quote from: s/v Faith on September 15, 2009, 10:18:10 AM

Quote from: s/v Faith on August 29, 2009, 04:25:21 PM

If so a http://Kyocera Solar KD-135 135 Watt 12 Volt Solar Electric Panel[/img] ($415 which is a steal) mounted on the stern rail

(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/wind-sun_2067_3667051).....
(http://store.solar-electric.com/kyso130wa12v.html)

Man, this was SUCH a great deal I just can't pass it up.  I just ordered one, and would recommend anyone looking for  a panel to consider doing the same.  Last time I priced these panels they were ~$700!

Craig,

I'm thinking of getting a Kyocera 85 W for about $335 (http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-panels/kyocera-kc85ts-85-watt-solar-panel).  One thing that was giving me pause was the glass top vice polymer...'crash' resistance.

I know one person here with one and he's had no trouble with it mounted on his fore hatch (an accident prone place, I'd think).  I was planning to put in off the stern rail, so figure it would be safer.

But, in keeping with the advice earlier in this thread (which I just re-read from the beginning to brush up), are you happy with your experience with the Kyocera panels?  Is yours, in fact, a glass topper?

Thanks.

Also, I just priced the Link 10 Monitor.   :o :o :o

The Morningside SunSaver Duo (http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/sun-saver-duo) is both controller and monitor for about $130, so that's what I'm looking at now.  The monitor only draws 8 mA when the screen light is off (and I MIGHT put a switch in to turn it off completely...don't know if it's worth the hassle though).

This company has a 130 watt 12 volt for $260.00   I have one of their smaller one and very happy with it.

http://www.solarblvd.com/ (http://www.solarblvd.com/)

John,

  The reason Kyocera uses glass is because there are no better options (yet).  Polymers break down over time with UV exposure, and Kyocera plans to have their panels working years after many will have failed.

  The glass can break, but is pretty hardy.  Many folks have used them for many years without a problem.  Kyocera
is good gear, but others may well work out equally well for you. 

  I installed a Morningstar controller on the 424 I was delivering, and it is highly recommended.  I looked at the Flexcharge for that install, but they seem to have gotten way too proud of them... for the price I would not go that way again... but probably go with the morningstar.  Have no experience with the monitor / regulator combo you linked to.

Quote from: s/v Faith on March 17, 2011, 09:55:22 PM

John,

  The reason Kyocera uses glass is because there are no better options (yet).  Polymers break down over time with UV exposure, and Kyocera plans to have their panels working years after many will have failed.

  The glass can break, but is pretty hardy.  Many folks have used them for many years without a problem.  Kyocera
is good gear, but others may well work out equally well for you. 

Thanks for the info.  I thought Kyocera was good stuff, and I like that the glass toppers have higher efficiencies.

Just wanted to see if you had either any problems or reservations about recommending them.

Quote

  I installed a Morningstar controller on the 424 I was delivering, and it is highly recommended.  I looked at the Flexcharge for that install, but they seem to have gotten way too proud of them... for the price I would not go that way again... but probably go with the morningstar.  Have no experience with the monitor / regulator combo you linked to.

I'm fairly confident that the internals of the controller I am looking at are the same (or the same enough) as the other Morningstars in use by various sailfarers.

I like the idea of a monitor on the electrical panel since I can give a crew member the daily job of checking the battery status.  I know it seems like an expensive toy for that purpose (beyond the practical of knowing what system state), but finding useful things for them to do REALLY helps the sanity of all aboard.

Right now I have one 'assigned' to daily wx forecast (which is not done daily, but we'll get there  :) ), and a suitably important task for t'other seems appropriate.

Besides, I don't want to have to dig into the battery bay with a DMM to check charge states before doing things like charging the laptop or batteries for the GPS....so, the monitor will come in handy. 

At first, wanting it seemed like a big step away from KISS, but KISS seems like a continuum of complexity vs utility.  I still ain't getting a water maker or pump for running water in the galley, and tonight at dinner, the Mate and I had a long discussion on the pros and cons of getting an Engel or not (battery and charging capacity being a big con, btw).

Anyway, again, thanks for the input.  It's too easy to get paralyzed on a major purchase like a solar panel.

I think having a monitor part of the controller is a great addition. I have a Morningstar for the Ariel, but just a controller.

I put a monitor on the RV and it really helped me keep track of the batteries. It had a small solar panel and would primarily get charged by the engine unless we would stay put for a few days and that when it would really help.

I am putting a little electrical on the Typhoon with only a 5 watt panel to keep it charged, I will probably check it with the monitor (it's portable) to see how well it keeps up.

The battery monitor may be a departure from KISS, but it is (IMHO) a worthy one.

I REALLY like having my LInk 10... I don't have to think about the charge level much at all.... I have voltage, instant current use, cumulative current use / input and even a charge percentage at a glance.

  It IS an instrument, but it is worth having.  It may be significant that if it fails, it still has no impact on the system other then the fact that it will not work.