I'd be interested in hearing what boats folks here consider appropriate for blue water cruising that are reasonably shallow draft. Many places cannot be accessed with the deeper draft boats. I'm looking at boats either side of 30'. Here are some examples:
Albin Vega 27 3' 10"
Westerly Centaur 26 3'
Voyager 26 3'4"
Bristol 27 4'
Bristol 27 4'
Pacific Seacraft Orion 27 4'
Nor'Sea 27 3'10" ........................ a very interesting boat with it's center cockpit
Tartan 27 3'2"
Cape Dory 28 4'
Cheoy Lee Offshore 28 3' 6"
Liberty Custom 28 4' (nice wide beam)
Pearson Triton 28 4'
Bayfield 29 3'6" (nice wide beam and 10'2")
Islander 29 3' 8"
Westerly Konsort 29 3'3" Bilge Keel
Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 3'10"
Once you get beyond 30', there aren't many shallower draft candidates. I particularly lean toward full keel with cutaway forefoot and keel hung rudder, but there are some advantages to bilge keels, particularly as you can stand them on a beach to work on the bottom in a remote area if you have enough tidal range. Careening is not something most modern sailors want to do with their boats, though it has been done since the earliest days of sailing. They Bayfield 39 and 31 are particularly attractive due to the broad beam, making for more interior space, though if you can't utilize that space well, there isn't much point. A broad wide open cabin can be a liability to negotiate in rough seas. Issues like lots of hand holds, and a decent galley design ........ U shaped would be preferable, and right below the companion way for ventilation. Having the head forward as seems to be standard is silly as far as I'm concerned.... It should be at the bottom of the companionway opposite the galley for obvious reasons. A huge cockpit just means a lot of wasted space and less internal space. The aft portion of the cockpit could just as well be a small raised cabin area for a workshop or storage, etc. Center cockpit like the Nor'Sea 27 compromises the interior space, moving everything forward, taking putting the sea berths forward of the center of the boat so any motion around the lateral axis will be amplified. I can see sleeping amidships on the cabin sole as optimal in rough conditions, but it could be wet.
It also seems to me that removing the inboard motor makes sense for a modern cruiser, with the advent of good reliable 4 cycle outboards.... assuming you rarely run under power, however the charging systems on outboards are not designed to charge the house batteries. Presumably this could be addressed, though there are an increasing number of extremely compact inverter generators. On the other hand, I have built several dedicated 12 volt gas generators from small engines, and they can be quite small. I'd be surprised if there is not something of the kind off the shelf.
........................ Thoughts anybody?
H.W.
Very good list.
To me, shallow draft is a must. It simply makes life so much easier while away. There are folks that cruise the Bahamas with 6ft+.....but it is so limiting and I imagine...stressful.
My ole Pearson Ariel was truly exellent offshore. (3ft 8in draft) I imagine the Triton would be better. Narrow beam and slack bilge are great in the bigger stuff.
That said, if offshore passages are shorter with easily forecast weather windows, wider beam and firmer bilge are fine. They just 'pound' more in bigger waves.
Gas Generator? Solar!!!! Sun is free and doesn't need oil changes :)
Quote from: Frank on April 12, 2016, 03:39:36 PM
Very good list.
To me, shallow draft is a must. It simply makes life so much easier while away. There are folks that cruise the Bahamas with 6ft+.....but it is so limiting and I imagine...stressful.
My ole Pearson Ariel was truly exellent offshore. (3ft 8in draft) I imagine the Triton would be better. Narrow beam and slack bilge are great in the bigger stuff.
That said, if offshore passages are shorter with easily forecast weather windows, wider beam and firmer bilge are fine. They just 'pound' more in bigger waves.
Gas Generator? Solar!!!! Sun is free and doesn't need oil changes :)
With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power. I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient. A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately. Hopefully one would not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark. With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me. A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.
It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind. At about .75 KW per hp. That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately. The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.
H.W.
I went through the same process and pretty much the same list. I settled on an Pearson Triton. I basically followed James Baldwin's "Atom" as my template.
I had a center cockpit catamaran, Heavenly Twins 26, which my wife and I lived aboard for about 4 years. The great plus was the helm was near the center of pitch so even in a nasty chop it was still comfortable. But that means the sleeping is in aft where max vertical movement occurs:(
Also mine didn't have a crawl through under the cockpit. So no matter the weather the rear hatch is opened, climb out, hope not to get the wife too wet/cold while the hatch is open, then open the forward doors. Use the head repeat in reverse. I loved the boat but I would not get another without at least a crawl through:)
A quick scan of DC generating systems for marine use shows a number of Kubota powered units, at least one with options for things like a refrigeration compressor, hydraulic pump, and watermaker pump. Unfortunately they are not very forthcoming on either weight and price, both of which are likely a bit much.
H.W.
I kinda like my Meridian 25. 17'9" wl, 3'6" draft (loaded) 7 foot beam, wineglass hull.
I use a single solar panel on top of the bimini. Mine is only 32 watts, and I'd like a larger one. But. In 2 1/2 years of live aboard, and several months short term cruising, I've had to go in and hook up the charger twice
Power is an 8 HP Yamaha in a well and could do as well with a 4 I think.
Has the dread "head under the bed" but in real life that's no biggie
Galley is aft, and VERY simple
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 12, 2016, 05:02:28 PM
I kinda like my Meridian 25. 17'9" wl, 3'6" draft (loaded) 7 foot beam, wineglass hull.
I use a single solar panel on top of the bimini. Mine is only 32 watts, and I'd like a larger one. But. In 2 1/2 years of live aboard, and several months short term cruising, I've had to go in and hook up the charger twice
Power is an 8 HP Yamaha in a well and could do as well with a 4 I think.
Has the dread "head under the bed" but in real life that's no biggie
Where exactly is the "head under the bed"? This makes sense to me for a solo cruiser. I've thought a lot about a composting head that might slide out or be under something like the bed.. This could be awkward with two or more, though the cockpit provides a second space so there can be privacy. Your galley would be a real female dog to use under way from the looks of it. no place to stand securely while cooking. I definitely would not want to be cooking while under weigh. Is that a one burner gas stove sitting on the counter in the galley at the far right? I'm looking at online photos, and finally found the "dread head" under the V berth.....A reasonable place to put it in a relatively crowded interior, I was imagining it under the quarter berth on the starboard side for some reason.
I rather like outboard wells........ but they take up more space than an outboard mounted on a transom mount. Outboards offer a lot more controllability in tight quarters than an inboard...... that's a significant plus, not to mention getting the noise and stink out of the cabin, and much better access for service.
H.W.
Galley is aft, and VERY simple
Stove is a one burner kero, mounted in a gimballed SeaCook ( NOT a SeaSwing) And it works well offshore. Been across Gulf Of mexico twice, once single hand. Across the Gulf Stream twice. Altogether some 11,800 cruising miles since 2004.
This pic re angled to show pot upright- you can see the heel angle. The first pic showed it in it's stowed position
Quote
"" With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power. I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient. A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately. Hopefully one would not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark. With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me. A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.
It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind. At about .75 KW per hp. That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately. The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.
H.W.
[/quote]
I'm on month number 4, after 3+ mths last year.
Run my fridge (Engel ice box conversion) 24/7
Charge my Ipad, bose satellite speaker, hand held VHF etc
NEVER been plugged in!!!
one 220 watt panel, 4-6volt batteries....good to go...
Quote from: Frank on April 12, 2016, 10:09:31 PM
Quote
"" With today's equipment being heavily electrically dependent, I feel that at it's wise to have about 3 sources of power. I totally agree with your feelings about solar, but there definitely are times when solar is not going to be sufficient. A tow or wind generator, are good for a second source, both based on wind ultimately. Hopefully one would not need a gas generator often, but cruisers often run the engine for additional electrical power when other sources fall short of the mark. With an inboard diesel, this is pretty economical, but somehow running an outboard with it's marginal charging system to boost the batteries doesn't make sense to me. A very expensive and relatively short life engine / system.
It's too bad that it isn't practical to collect enough solar power to drive the boat, as the intertropical convergence zones often have great sun, but no wind. At about .75 KW per hp. That works out to a bit over 50 square feet per horsepower unfortunately. The entire deck area of a 30' sailboat wouldn't have nearly enough footage to produce 5 hp.
H.W.
I'm on month number 4, after 3+ mths last year.
Run my fridge (Engel ice box conversion) 24/7
Charge my Ipad, bose satellite speaker, hand held VHF etc
NEVER been plugged in!!!
one 220 watt panel, 4-6volt batteries....good to go...
[/quote]
My experience (limited) with refrigeration suggests that it would consume more than your solar panel would produce. It's the largest consumer of power out there. As I mentioned in a previous post that vanished, I consider AIS, radar, and VHF critical for long passages, particuarly single handing or two handing. Those pieces of modern tech are priceless in terms of the safety they offer. Add a chart plotter, GPS, refrigeration, lighting, etc, and the power bill keeps climbing. Solar only works when the sun is shining without significant cloud cover to reduce efficiency, just as wind only works when the wind is blowing. Seems to me that it should be possible to use the motion of the boat to generate, but nobody seems to have worked that out yet. I don't believe in putting all eggs in the solar basket, but solar is a huge advantage. A tow generator is kind of a no brainer as a backup (wind power).
Are you using golf cart batteries? I do have a lot of experience with batteries, and have found batteries in parallel are a real problem over time. I would like to see someone develop a parallel battery management device that manages and monitors charge and discharge rates so when batteries no longer match up properly, they can still work in reasonable harmony. When I hook up parallel batteries, I don't use the battery to battery to battery connections with power at the far end like most people do, as resistance is cumulative. I use a heavy buss bar (copper bar), and equal length cables. There used to be battery cable ends for screw top batteries that had a hard plastic cap that sealed down to the top of the battery, excluding moisture, acid, etc, and were then pumped full of grease, effectively making a corrosion proof connection. Unfortunately I can't find these anymore. The best commonly available battery set up is 2 6 volt batteries that look like a golf cart battery, but are twice the height, and double capacity. This eliminates any parallel connections. There are also the large 2 volt cells that can be connected in series, but they get pretty expensive.
H.W.
There's one huge difference. I don't use refrigeration for food-ever. Only ice and only for drinks, when ice is available. My chest on the boat will hold a 20 pound block for 8-9 days.
Otherwise the ice box is used for dry storage of pasta, etc
No biggie learning to do without.
We went back and forth to FL in Woody's Aleutka (25' bilge keel) with an outboard on a bracket on one side of the canoe stern. I guess it worked, but it always seemed kind of iffy to me. There was no way to set the height of the outboard so that it was correctly positioned in rough waves. If it was set high, the prop would come out of the water with a terrible whine, especially if one or both of us went forward. If we set it low enough that the prop stayed in the water, it looked like we might drown the thing. Maybe a set up like Charlie has where the outboard is in its own well in the stern is better? Maybe a boat with a full transom with more buoyancy would carry an outboard better? Our last two boats have had canoe sterns, so it's hard for me to remember how a wide transom rides. Either way, having had both, I'm happy to have an inboard engine. Well, until it needs to come out, I guess.
Quote from: ralay on April 13, 2016, 01:25:20 PM
We went back and forth to FL in Woody's Aleutka (25' bilge keel) with an outboard on a bracket on one side of the canoe stern. I guess it worked, but it always seemed kind of iffy to me. There was no way to set the height of the outboard so that it was correctly positioned in rough waves. If it was set high, the prop would come out of the water with a terrible whine, especially if one or both of us went forward. If we set it low enough that the prop stayed in the water, it looked like we might drown the thing. Maybe a set up like Charlie has where the outboard is in its own well in the stern is better? Maybe a boat with a full transom with more buoyancy would carry an outboard better? Our last two boats have had canoe sterns, so it's hard for me to remember how a wide transom rides. Either way, having had both, I'm happy to have an inboard engine. Well, until it needs to come out, I guess.
With a long shaft outboard designed for a sailboat, mounted to a lifting bracket, there are solutions to these issues. Evinrude offers the Sailmaster outboard which has a 10" longer than normal shaft. There is also at least one company that offers conversion kits to extra long shaft. It's clearly not a unique situation. It seems to me that it is probably worth the effort to go this route for the advantages in internal space and maneuverability. The primary use for power on a sailboat should be maneuvering in port. An outboard excels in this area.
H.W.
Ah, yes, a long shaft motor does sound like it would have helped. We made what we had work even though it was less than ideal.
It would be great if sailboaters really only used their engines to get in and out of port, but most folks seem to find a lot of use for an engine.
Very hard to get around in the ICW without running that engine, MUCH more than wanted. And heading east from Texas to Florida, you are pretty much stuck in the ditch til you cross the Mississippi River. Foolish to go outside except in short hops.I've done that trip, each way, 9 times now.
In addition, you'll be in the single busiest part of the entire intercoastal, from Texas to Norfolk Va. I once began counting, and was met by 13 tows in a 4 hour span. They look like this-check the pic
Once into Mississippi Sound you can for sure sail, and begin making offshore jumps too.
Timing inlets is also a consideration. If you want to come in during daylight with a tide that's not opposing the wind, you've got a very limited window. If the wind dies offshore, most folks are going to turn on the engine and try to make that safest window rather than staying outside with their sails flapping and slatting.
Even if you're unhindered by human schedules, nature is constantly telling you where you ought to be and at what time.
That said, we've done a lot better this trip. We have 25h on the engine since New Bern. But we're doing it by going out while it's spring with cold, nasty, unsettled weather. Whenever we sail in beautiful summer weather, there's hardly ever wind (except in thunderstorms and waterspouts).
My interest is in passage making / ocean crossing. The places I most want to visit are many thousands of miles away. Coastal and ICW cruising, and day and weekend cruises pretty much necessitate a lot of engine use......... and that's what almost everybody does. To me "blue water cruising" means weeks out of sight of land, followed by some island hopping or visiting foreign ports. That's the "club" I mean to join. The folks who cross paths in Costa Rica, and then perhaps next in New Zealand or Tonga, or perhaps Barbados and then Gibraltar or Las Palmas, or Corsica, or the islands off the coast of Croatia, or maybe wintering at Carthage, or Marmaris, etc. Or perhaps on Tenrife or The Cocos and Keeling islands......
It's a big world out there, and I haven't seen nearly enough of it yet............ What better way than to sail?
H.W.
Just thinking of one Ya missed on your list..
Pacific Seacraft Dana 24
Heavy built
Great layout
3'8" draft by memory
Certainly a very capable smaller boat
Wishing you the very best. I too once dreamed of that- built a 35 foot tri, with the southern seas in mind, and beyond.
Life, wives, kids came into the pic. Now at 75, I no longer have the open ocean sailing desire. But cruising is cruising. Bahamas, US Virgins, Mexico, are all close, and easily achievable.
Seriously.
I've been assisting the widow of a friend -they were circumnavigators - part with the left over stuff from that life. He died ON the birthday they shared. But they did the dream.
Hoping you will too
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 13, 2016, 10:54:00 PM
Wishing you the very best. I too once dreamed of that- built a 35 foot tri, with the southern seas in mind, and beyond.
Life, wives, kids came into the pic. Now at 75, I no longer have the open ocean sailing desire. But cruising is cruising. Bahamas, US Virgins, Mexico, are all close, and easily achievable.
Seriously.
I've been assisting the widow of a friend -they were circumnavigators - part with the left over stuff from that life. He died ON the birthday they shared. But they did the dream.
Hoping you will too
Thanks........... We have a lot of dreams that never come to fruition over a lifetime, I hope this won't be another of those. I have the means and the desire, and a heck of a lot of stuff to wrap up and / or get rid of first. Actual circumnavigation is not a goal, though it is almost inevitable ultimately.
H.W.
Quote from: Frank on April 13, 2016, 10:01:37 PM
Just thinking of one Ya missed on your list..
Pacific Seacraft Dana 24
Heavy built
Great layout
3'8" draft by memory
Certainly a very capable smaller boat
Frank:
I left that one off my list due to the length. I arbitrarily cut it off at 26' (not carved in stone). And I chose 4' as the maximum draft, and 8' as minimum beam. All else being equal, the optimal boat should have maximum waterline length in the low 30's, and a broad beam, with a fairly shallow draft, and sufficient ballast down low for stability. A fat boat like the Bayfield 29 and 31 offers some stability advantages when heeled over, allowing for it's shallow draft of only 3'6", the ballast being further outboard as the boat heels. There are both the matter of waterline length / hull speed, and of course internal storage space........ Not to mention comfort in the cabin, when it comes to long passages of many weeks at sea. Ultimately there is no formula where I can simply run a spreadsheet with relative values placed on specifications and yield up the perfect boat. As with all such choices, the ultimate decision will be based on gut feeling about the boat as much as anything. I left a number of others off the list simply because I forgot them.
A person could spend years choosing and buying the "perfect" boat, and never go anywhere, but it doesn't make sense to go off half cocked either, and end up having to buy a second boat because the first is lacking.
Here are some additional boats that meet my criteria......... As commented by someone previously, they vary greatly in price and availability:
Cheoy Lee Offshore 26 3'9" draft
Morris Francis 26 3' 10"
Pearson Ariel 26 3'8"
Cape Dory 27 4'
Dockerell 27 3'
Sea Sprite 27 3'2"
Francis Herrescyhoff H 28 3'11"
Liberty 28 4'
Rhodes Ranger 28 3'10"
Islander 29 3'8"
Cheoy Lee Offshore 31 3'10"
Pacific Seacraft 31 shoal draft version 4'
H.W.
If looks count.....those Sea Sprite 27's sure are pretty!! Great lines!!
Hope your dreams come true!!
I made some mistakes in my list, duplicated a few, accidentally included one I should have left out (due to a typo)
In evaluating the list, purely on specifications / priorities, a few boats pop out as being ideal, none of which I've sailed or sailed on:
The Westerly Konsort and Bayfield 29 (or 32 which is actually a 30' boat) stand at the top of the list due to shallow draft and broad beam. The Bayfields are plentiful and pretty affordable, the Konsort is not. The Islander 29 comes in very close, followed by the Cheoy Lee 28 and 31, the 28 having broader beam and shallower draft.
The Konsort really stands at the very top of my list, I like everything about it except the galley location....... Putting the galley forward seems to be a typically British bit of backwardness, but you can't have everything........... The virtually identical twin with the fin keel, the longbow is widely available in a reasonable price range.... Too bad they didn't build it with a shoal draft full keel with cutaway forefoot ;-( Because of price and availability, the Bayfields are really where I'm focused, with the 29 being preferable to the 32 which is really only a foot longer. I consider a V berth kind of useless for my purposes, and prefer the space to be in the saloon, though using the entire forward compartment as a head is a bit absurd. I would convert it to other uses. The listed length is deceptive on these due to all the garbage on the bow (bow pulpit and bowsprit). The LWL of the Bayfield 29 is only 21'9" compared to the Konsort at 25'7"....... a HUGE difference of 6' on the water line. The Islander 29 has a 23' LWL, and the Cheoy Lee 28 has a 22' LWL, and the 31 has 23'4". The LWL is going to effect speed, and may have a significant effect on interior space depending on hull shape.
Obviously pointing ability and leeway, and seagoing comfort are not factored in here, nor are many other factors.
Any way you slice it, I will be looking for a reasonably priced Konsort above all others on my list, but all are boats with good reputations. The Konsorts seem mostly to be on the other side of the Atlantic, and pretty expensive, but I have no objection to buying a boat over there.
H.W.
When do you plan on 'heading out'?
I wrote something earlier; but it got accidentally zapped by a certain, not to be named by me, personage. So I will try again.
I own a Bayfield 29 that I've reviewed elsewhere. I think Seeker is a great boat; but there are definite compromises. Please forgive this extensive essay. I hope I hit all your issues.
Interior comfort is quite decent for one or a couple, at least the way I have her set up. As you mentioned, she is really less than 29' on deck. But by eliminating the v-berth I think she is still quite roomy.
The forward head is really great. It doesn't take up all the space in the bow. There is a large area in the pointy end for a chain locker (if you don't keep it all in the deck anchor locker well). Aft of that is a hanging locker. I think it is a little smaller than it needs to be and it will be relatively easy for me to make it larger by pushing several inches (8 or 10 maybe?) towards the bow in a little area aft of where the chain locker ends, and down to where the holding tank used to be before I transitioned to a Natures Head. Aft of the hanging locker is a silly little seat, and then a toilet to Starboard and a Sink/Vanity to port. Behind the toilet is a good sized cabinet. There is decent stowage inside the sink vanity, and a little medicine cabinet up top. The silly seat hides some now unused seacocks (head intake/exhaust and an unused Air-conditioning intake) which I am eventually going to seal up so I can turn the area into a tool locker. Seeker came with pressure water and a shower in the head. I used it once. It worked. I took it out.
A forward head is not the best thing when in a seaway; but I've used it OK in some seasick inducing waves; so it can work. If things get bad enough, a plastic bucket is a reliable alternative.
The head came with a beautiful teak door. I removed it and replaced it with a curtain. The door just interfered too much with the main cabin living area for my taste. The curtain is also quieter.
In the main cabin I keep the Starboard berth pulled out into a double. I'm actually in the process of making it a permanent double by building some cabinetry underneath for some additional stowage. This will also let me increase the width a little bit. A permanent double is not the best seaberth (although, at least for the sailing I've done, it did OK-ish); but there is still the Port settee and the two quarter berths, all of which should be decent in a seaway.
Ergonomically, the settees are not the most comfortable. With the backrest in the down position and the thick cushion that came on Seeker, it doesn't leave enough seat to be comfy. The backrest is permanently off of the starboard double, and I have some plans which I think will improve the port settee. It might just be a matter of removing the thick back padding and replacing with something less cushy.
The center-line table is nice enough when in use; but mostly I found it got in the way so I removed it. I'm never out of reach of a handhold. My short girlfriend, however, doesn't like using the overhead handrails so has a short distance to cross from the galley bulkhead to the mast without something to grab onto. If you leave the table in place you won't get thrown far; but you may find yourself with the occasional bruise as you bump into it.
There is stowage underneath both the starboard and port settees, and cabinets above.
The galley on the starboard side is not huge; but it is big enough to be functional. When I am disciplined enough to keep the nav station clear of clutter I use that as additional prep space. The stove is, sadly, not gimbaled. I do have a propane canister Seaswing, or something like it (the brand and model escape me currently) which works quite well; but is limited to simple meals. Eventually, I'd like to sacrifice the starboard quarterberth in order to extend the galley back a few feet and allow a much larger cockpit locker on that side. Mostly all I use the berth for is to stow the port-a-bote seats, and a plastic bin filled with extra food anyhow.
The nav station on the port side is mostly used as a desk for a laptop, a workbench, and a horizontal surface to throw things that really belong elsewhere. Oh, and the top opening ice box is below it (plus a side opening little pantry which is awesome). I don't think the insulation in the icebox is up to par for a long trip. Maybe it was when new; but not now. It's a decent sized box, though. My intent is to insulate the poop out of it, making it much smaller, and converting it to refrigeration. I've mocked it up and I think it will work great. When I eventually get to it.
The port quarter berth is just a little short for my liking (I'm 5'10"). I'll probably extend it back six inches or so after I finish messing with the starboard quarterberth.
The cockpit is good enough. The seats are a little low to comfortably see over the cabin without sitting on a cushion. The seats are also a little too far apart for a short person to brace against while well heeled over. It can be dealt with. The starboard cockpit locker is very small as the quarterberth takes up a lot of the space. The port locker is better; but still not commodious. The quarterberth mod mentioned above will turn the starboard locker into a decent sized box.
With a tiller (like on Seeker), if one person is handling the steering while another is handling the sheets, it gets crowded when tacking. I understand that those helming Bayfield 29s with wheel steering have to deal with the mainsheet trying to take their heads off every tack not to mention an inconveniently placed backstay. But it was a popular option and I haven't heard too many people wanting to convert to tiller, so maybe I overstate the problem.
The Bayfield 29 is a cutter rigged boat, so there are extra sheets to deal with. I believe that aft led halyards was standard. That is not to my liking and I may someday move the halyards to the mast where they belong. I wish the mast was a few feet taller and the sails a bit bigger. I think it would help with the light summer breezes.
The side decks are wide enough to make passage forward comfortable. The foredeck is big enough to make you think about handholds when working up there. I have a 10' Port-a-bote that I just barely have enough room to assemble/disassemble on the foredeck.
Bayfield 29s like a good breeze. They absolutely do not like light air. I have a drifter that I fly like an asymmetrical spinnaker that helps when the wind is from the right direction; but I'd hate to spend much time sailing to weather in a zephyr. It took me years to admit to myself; but I love (on those days I don't despise) my diesel engine. I'd rather not live life to a schedule; but the reality is I need to get to work on Monday's, and the Yanmar let's me get sailing without having to worry too much about the wind taking a siesta. She heaves to just fine. I've sailed in winds over thirty knots to weather without drama. I've been caught in pop up t-storms of well over forty knots; but I just tend to heave to when that happens.
The full keel means she tracks pretty well. It also means she is not raceboat maneuverable. Backing up under power is an exercise that can most generously be called "interesting," and docking in a tight marina is a real test of seamanship. Warps aren't only for the Starship Enterprise!
For long crossings, or the possibility of even a circumnavigation there are a couple things to consider.
I think if you aren't foolish about seasons, a Bayfield 29 will go anywhere you want. She heaves to well enough, that with the proper gear you would probably make it through being moderately foolish. Although I've never sailed her in a real storm, so maybe I'm wrong. I have a sea-anchor I'd like to try someday.
If you put a lot of stock in the capsize screen ratio, according to Carl's sailboat calculator (http://"http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html"), the Bayfield 29, at 2.03, is very slightly above the magical 2.0 number. If you boost the displacement a little bit to 8500# as suggested by former Bayfield president, Jake Rogerson in Canadian Yachting (http://"http://www.canadianyachting.ca/boat-reviews/79-sail/925-bayfield-29-sail-boat-review") it comes to 1.99. I've certainly never felt unsafe in any conditions I've encountered; but there are a lot of conditions I've never encountered.
The standard 20 gallon water tankage (one tank under the starboard settee) is insufficient for a long trip. It shouldn't be a major problem to add additional tankage under the settees, though. If you get rid of the black water tank, that space can also hold a decent sized tank. I'm not sure how much water is really necessary; but increasing tankage to 100 gallons or more I don't think would pose a problem.
The boat comes with a small twenty gallon aluminum diesel tank. It sits in the bilge, where mine got pinhole leaks. I had the bottom three inches cut off and put a new bottom on. I think it is around 17 gallons now, so is even less generous. Long trips between fueling stations where extensive motoring is expected could be problematic and require the dreaded deck stowed jerry cans. Happily, the thirteen horsepower Yanmar 2GM engine is not too thirsty. At a reasonable cruise I'm guessing it uses quite a bit less than half a gallon an hour. When pushing it hard (which I often do now-a-days because diesels like to be run hard and I like to put fresh fuel in regularly) I think it may use as much as three quarters of a gallon an hour while increasing the speed by no more than a knot or so. I plan on ten nautical miles/gallon at an economical RPM at a little better than five knots when in a calm; but really think I'm doing closer to 15.
Overall, I think the Bayfield is an excellent boat. I've tried to be honest about her shortcomings. She would be a terrific Bahamas boat with the shallow 3.5' draft. I would expect her to do fine crossing an ocean in the appropriate season. She is quite comfortable for living aboard at anchor. If you are a really hard core gung ho type who likes to sail the really nasty places, the initial stability advantages of the wide beam might fall victim to the ultimate stability disadvantage of the same wide beam. If you like to sail where the wind is more myth than reality, then you may need to use the engine more than you desire.
Compromise. <sigh>
I'm going to try and be on the chat tonight. If you have some specific Bayfield questions and desire a short format conversation instead of a book length post, I will do my best to answer any questions.
Quote from: Owly055 on April 13, 2016, 02:58:52 PM
Quote from: ralay on April 13, 2016, 01:25:20 PM
We went back and forth to FL in Woody's Aleutka (25' bilge keel) with an outboard on a bracket on one side of the canoe stern. I guess it worked, but it always seemed kind of iffy to me. There was no way to set the height of the outboard so that it was correctly positioned in rough waves. If it was set high, the prop would come out of the water with a terrible whine, especially if one or both of us went forward. If we set it low enough that the prop stayed in the water, it looked like we might drown the thing. Maybe a set up like Charlie has where the outboard is in its own well in the stern is better? Maybe a boat with a full transom with more buoyancy would carry an outboard better? Our last two boats have had canoe sterns, so it's hard for me to remember how a wide transom rides. Either way, having had both, I'm happy to have an inboard engine. Well, until it needs to come out, I guess.
With a long shaft outboard designed for a sailboat, mounted to a lifting bracket, there are solutions to these issues. Evinrude offers the Sailmaster outboard which has a 10" longer than normal shaft. There is also at least one company that offers conversion kits to extra long shaft. It's clearly not a unique situation. It seems to me that it is probably worth the effort to go this route for the advantages in internal space and maneuverability. The primary use for power on a sailboat should be maneuvering in port. An outboard excels in this area.
H.W.
FWIW, the outboard in question was a long shaft on an adjustable bracket. Not perfect, but it worked in most situations. Counter intuitively, perhaps, the times we had problems with the prop coming out and cavitating were when we were inshore in a steep chop. Our boat did have the tendency to hobby horse a bit, perhaps because of the way she was laden, or perhaps because of her canoe stern and rather fine ends.
We got along fine with our outboard and it served well enough as main and dinghy engine, while being relatively light, taking up little room, and being new, required little troubleshooting or work outside of basic maintenance. However, looking back, it was incapable of providing any power generation, was somewhat challenging to safely operate (hanging far astern), and was also vulnerable to damage or even loss. Still, for us, on that boat, at that time, it worked. I liked being able to lift the 6hp Sailpro off the transom bracket and attach it to our inflatable. It would push our Aleutka at close to hull speed or bring our dinghy up on a plane. Had we needed to make repairs, we could have removed it and done so easily. Also, the whole system was relatively inexpensive new. A good (or at least decent) used outboard could be had for even less.
However, having owned and operated an inboard diesel, I would not go back to an outboard driven boat, unless the boat was fairly small. Most vintage diesels are simple, robust, and reliable sources of both propulsion and power generation. The tankage and total system does take up quite a bit of space, but I feel it is worth the price, for its utility. Also, when it comes to space utilization, I think that it makes more sense to combine systems if possible, so I would prefer a single engine for both power and propulsion, as opposed to two separate engines, one as a generator and one as a boat-pusher. For us, on this boat, at this time, it works (most of the time)!
While I empathize with the ideal of minimizing engine usage, in practice, we truly rely on it's usage for many functions, on almost every passage. Like the other technologies that we embrace to make sailing a recreational sport, I think reliable mechanical propulsion has it's place. It opens doors to go upwind, or against the wind and current. It both an added safety factor as well as a comfort factor, which can be seen as its own safety factor, in a way.
Of course, everyone will have their own goals, attitudes and practices. I will not try to argue what is the best choice for anyone else. I will say that my views have evolved over the course of years of cruising, multiple boats, systems, and that while I once idealized ideas of engine less sailing, I have come over to the dark side! Who knows...maybe one day I will even own a stink pot! :o I think that will be a long way off though, if ever.
I will also say that the idea of hopping on a 22 footer with a small cabin and being able to sail around beautiful waters with no engine is delightfully appealing. Maybe someday I'll live in a place where blue waters and islands abound, where I'm in no hurry to get anywhere, and where I don't need to change the oil...ever! That's not the life we're living atm...Instead we're living on a fat cruising boat, working our way up the east coast of the USA. Just a different kind of sailing I guess.
I also love the feeling of the boat flying along on her own, perfectly balanced, the wind-vane doing the steering, and the beautiful sun silently charging up our batteries. Since we've gotten better at planning our passages and outfitting our boat, we've definitely needed to use the engine less than on previous trips. We still use it plenty, don't get me wrong, but I think we've come a long way since our initial days of motor sailing down the ICW.
There are always going to be trade-offs with any design choice. Being clear and honest about your actual vs. intended vs. idealistic usage is half of the battle. I suppose that may just boil down to hard earned experience. Sometimes you don't really know what you like until you get a good mouthful of it. For example, it's fine to say that you will refrain from using your engine to make port but rather tack back and forth for hours, or days, out of pure idealism. I can say from personal experience that I have not been able to keep my hand off the keys :D
Another example: Even though we've sailed many miles and done what I'd consider a fair bit of cruising over the last decade, I can't honestly say that we've done a very good job of embracing the totally carefree life of cruising without a schedule. Even though we don't have very many responsibilities, it seems like we are still getting caught up in the need to make a plan and try to enact it. I think we could improve on this a lot still, but my point, in short, is that even if you don't have a regular job or are attempting to simply meander around in no hurry, it seems like there is always something to keep you moving along, whether its simply the weather, the tide, the customs office, the dock-master telling you to get out of town, or (god forbid) your own boredom or desire for a change of scenery.
Whatever your design choices, I guess it's good to remember that no boat is perfect, and the one you have beats the best one on the internet most days :)
There is a Cheoy Lee Luders 30 for sale in almost 'ready to go' condition right now, check the Savannah Craigslist (it's in Yachtworld for $10K) - still finishing, but looks like most of the big work is done - for only $6K. Needs sails, but *that* is a steal.
The guy won't trade me for my Islander 36, I asked. :D He is outfitting an OI 41.
Re: electrically miserly refrigeration - Frank has, like I do, an Engel fridge/freezer. They only draw .8-2.3amps/h; the 2.3 is when freezing down after defrost, compressor running non-stop.
Once stable temp is reached, they hardly run at all. It is hard to hear, but mine cycles less than a minute out of every 10-15.
A dial numbered 0-5 determines interior temps; mine freezes stuff at about 2, I have never put it over 2.5. I'd bet you could make block ice at 5. :)
Awesome machines, pretty expensive and a luxury for sure, and worth every penny and amp, IMO. :D
Great post Ralay.. You guys have now gone past my northern most point cruising
Thanks for the excellent review..... I've pretty much gone over the photos and info I can find on the BF 29, and am petty familiar with the layout. I agree with you about the galley. With the quarter berth sacrificed, it could be a much better setup. U shape is preferable simply for the ability to brace yourself. A U shape with a butt strap makes for a pretty secure work space. Sacrificing the quarter berth would also logically allow you to install a gimbal stove which any serious seagoing boat should have as far as I'm concerned. My ideas with regard to the head are also similar to yours, and I would probably convert to a composting head. A potential work space / tool locker. I have to have a place to work on stuff. I see the area as easily converted potential space. Your curtain idea makes sense. There is not a lot of "prime real estate" on a small boat, so the trade off is what to do with that space. If you use it for one thing, it's not available for another thing. The center of motion is where you want to eat, sleep, and s__t. It's also where you want to relax and to navigate. "Park Place and Boardwalk" comprise just a few feet. Quarter berths are of questionable value to me, as I expect to be mostly single handing and they are anything but convenient to get in and out of, though they are difficult to get thrown out of ;-)
Only a fool goes out on a long crossing during an unfavorable season, but beyond 3 days from shore, weather reports are pretty questionable, so on a 3 week passage, anything can happen. A good heavy bridle with solid anchor points at the corners of the transom for a series drogue is good insurance, as is an inflatable dinghy tied down "strategically" as some folks do. The biggest issues in extreme conditions seem to be water intrusion where it shouldn't be getting in, and windows capable of holding up under a beating. The boat can often take more of a beating than the people inside. I remember Roger Taylor talking about laying on the cabin sole at the bottom of the companionway during a violent storm in the Greenland Sea.
I've spoken of the Northerly Konsort as a pretty ideal boat in terms of draft and beam, but the full keel of the Bayfield with keel hung rudder is a far more comforting setup than the two short bilge keels and unprotected transom hung rudder of the Konsort. I can't help but wonder what the result of a rudder strike on the Konsort would be... What would fail? The rudder itself, or the transom attachment.... perhaps ripping the bolts right out...... who knows. That long well supported keel is a comfort. The other downside to the bilge keel setup is that when you are aground, you are well and truly stuck. You can't hook a line to a water filled dink from the mast head and heel the boat over to reduce draft. In remote areas with coral heads and sand bars, these considerations are significant. TowUS isn't two miles away nor is there likely to be a good boatyard nearby once you get out of the ICW.
H.W.
Quote from: Godot on April 14, 2016, 04:12:38 PM
I wrote something earlier; but it got accidentally zapped by a certain, not to be named by me, personage. So I will try again.
I own a Bayfield 29 that I've reviewed elsewhere. I think Seeker is a great boat; but there are definite compromises. Please forgive this extensive essay. I hope I hit all your issues.
Interior comfort is quite decent for one or a couple, at least the way I have her set up. As you mentioned, she is really less than 29' on deck. But by eliminating the v-berth I think she is still quite roomy.
The forward head is really great. It doesn't take up all the space in the bow. There is a large area in the pointy end for a chain locker (if you don't keep it all in the deck anchor locker well). Aft of that is a hanging locker. I think it is a little smaller than it needs to be and it will be relatively easy for me to make it larger by pushing several inches (8 or 10 maybe?) towards the bow in a little area aft of where the chain locker ends, and down to where the holding tank used to be before I transitioned to a Natures Head. Aft of the hanging locker is a silly little seat, and then a toilet to Starboard and a Sink/Vanity to port. Behind the toilet is a good sized cabinet. There is decent stowage inside the sink vanity, and a little medicine cabinet up top. The silly seat hides some now unused seacocks (head intake/exhaust and an unused Air-conditioning intake) which I am eventually going to seal up so I can turn the area into a tool locker. Seeker came with pressure water and a shower in the head. I used it once. It worked. I took it out.
A forward head is not the best thing when in a seaway; but I've used it OK in some seasick inducing waves; so it can work. If things get bad enough, a plastic bucket is a reliable alternative.
The head came with a beautiful teak door. I removed it and replaced it with a curtain. The door just interfered too much with the main cabin living area for my taste. The curtain is also quieter.
In the main cabin I keep the Starboard berth pulled out into a double. I'm actually in the process of making it a permanent double by building some cabinetry underneath for some additional stowage. This will also let me increase the width a little bit. A permanent double is not the best seaberth (although, at least for the sailing I've done, it did OK-ish); but there is still the Port settee and the two quarter berths, all of which should be decent in a seaway.
Ergonomically, the settees are not the most comfortable. With the backrest in the down position and the thick cushion that came on Seeker, it doesn't leave enough seat to be comfy. The backrest is permanently off of the starboard double, and I have some plans which I think will improve the port settee. It might just be a matter of removing the thick back padding and replacing with something less cushy.
The center-line table is nice enough when in use; but mostly I found it got in the way so I removed it. I'm never out of reach of a handhold. My short girlfriend, however, doesn't like using the overhead handrails so has a short distance to cross from the galley bulkhead to the mast without something to grab onto. If you leave the table in place you won't get thrown far; but you may find yourself with the occasional bruise as you bump into it.
There is stowage underneath both the starboard and port settees, and cabinets above.
The galley on the starboard side is not huge; but it is big enough to be functional. When I am disciplined enough to keep the nav station clear of clutter I use that as additional prep space. The stove is, sadly, not gimbaled. I do have a propane canister Seaswing, or something like it (the brand and model escape me currently) which works quite well; but is limited to simple meals. Eventually, I'd like to sacrifice the starboard quarterberth in order to extend the galley back a few feet and allow a much larger cockpit locker on that side. Mostly all I use the berth for is to stow the port-a-bote seats, and a plastic bin filled with extra food anyhow.
The nav station on the port side is mostly used as a desk for a laptop, a workbench, and a horizontal surface to throw things that really belong elsewhere. Oh, and the top opening ice box is below it (plus a side opening little pantry which is awesome). I don't think the insulation in the icebox is up to par for a long trip. Maybe it was when new; but not now. It's a decent sized box, though. My intent is to insulate the poop out of it, making it much smaller, and converting it to refrigeration. I've mocked it up and I think it will work great. When I eventually get to it.
The port quarter berth is just a little short for my liking (I'm 5'10"). I'll probably extend it back six inches or so after I finish messing with the starboard quarterberth.
The cockpit is good enough. The seats are a little low to comfortably see over the cabin without sitting on a cushion. The seats are also a little too far apart for a short person to brace against while well heeled over. It can be dealt with. The starboard cockpit locker is very small as the quarterberth takes up a lot of the space. The port locker is better; but still not commodious. The quarterberth mod mentioned above will turn the starboard locker into a decent sized box.
With a tiller (like on Seeker), if one person is handling the steering while another is handling the sheets, it gets crowded when tacking. I understand that those helming Bayfield 29s with wheel steering have to deal with the mainsheet trying to take their heads off every tack not to mention an inconveniently placed backstay. But it was a popular option and I haven't heard too many people wanting to convert to tiller, so maybe I overstate the problem.
The Bayfield 29 is a cutter rigged boat, so there are extra sheets to deal with. I believe that aft led halyards was standard. That is not to my liking and I may someday move the halyards to the mast where they belong. I wish the mast was a few feet taller and the sails a bit bigger. I think it would help with the light summer breezes.
The side decks are wide enough to make passage forward comfortable. The foredeck is big enough to make you think about handholds when working up there. I have a 10' Port-a-bote that I just barely have enough room to assemble/disassemble on the foredeck.
Bayfield 29s like a good breeze. They absolutely do not like light air. I have a drifter that I fly like an asymmetrical spinnaker that helps when the wind is from the right direction; but I'd hate to spend much time sailing to weather in a zephyr. It took me years to admit to myself; but I love (on those days I don't despise) my diesel engine. I'd rather not live life to a schedule; but the reality is I need to get to work on Monday's, and the Yanmar let's me get sailing without having to worry too much about the wind taking a siesta. She heaves to just fine. I've sailed in winds over thirty knots to weather without drama. I've been caught in pop up t-storms of well over forty knots; but I just tend to heave to when that happens.
The full keel means she tracks pretty well. It also means she is not raceboat maneuverable. Backing up under power is an exercise that can most generously be called "interesting," and docking in a tight marina is a real test of seamanship. Warps aren't only for the Starship Enterprise!
For long crossings, or the possibility of even a circumnavigation there are a couple things to consider.
I think if you aren't foolish about seasons, a Bayfield 29 will go anywhere you want. She heaves to well enough, that with the proper gear you would probably make it through being moderately foolish. Although I've never sailed her in a real storm, so maybe I'm wrong. I have a sea-anchor I'd like to try someday.
If you put a lot of stock in the capsize screen ratio, according to Carl's sailboat calculator (http://"http://www.tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html"), the Bayfield 29, at 2.03, is very slightly above the magical 2.0 number. If you boost the displacement a little bit to 8500# as suggested by former Bayfield president, Jake Rogerson in Canadian Yachting (http://"http://www.canadianyachting.ca/boat-reviews/79-sail/925-bayfield-29-sail-boat-review") it comes to 1.99. I've certainly never felt unsafe in any conditions I've encountered; but there are a lot of conditions I've never encountered.
The standard 20 gallon water tankage (one tank under the starboard settee) is insufficient for a long trip. It shouldn't be a major problem to add additional tankage under the settees, though. If you get rid of the black water tank, that space can also hold a decent sized tank. I'm not sure how much water is really necessary; but increasing tankage to 100 gallons or more I don't think would pose a problem.
The boat comes with a small twenty gallon aluminum diesel tank. It sits in the bilge, where mine got pinhole leaks. I had the bottom three inches cut off and put a new bottom on. I think it is around 17 gallons now, so is even less generous. Long trips between fueling stations where extensive motoring is expected could be problematic and require the dreaded deck stowed jerry cans. Happily, the thirteen horsepower Yanmar 2GM engine is not too thirsty. At a reasonable cruise I'm guessing it uses quite a bit less than half a gallon an hour. When pushing it hard (which I often do now-a-days because diesels like to be run hard and I like to put fresh fuel in regularly) I think it may use as much as three quarters of a gallon an hour while increasing the speed by no more than a knot or so. I plan on ten nautical miles/gallon at an economical RPM at a little better than five knots when in a calm; but really think I'm doing closer to 15.
Overall, I think the Bayfield is an excellent boat. I've tried to be honest about her shortcomings. She would be a terrific Bahamas boat with the shallow 3.5' draft. I would expect her to do fine crossing an ocean in the appropriate season. She is quite comfortable for living aboard at anchor. If you are a really hard core gung ho type who likes to sail the really nasty places, the initial stability advantages of the wide beam might fall victim to the ultimate stability disadvantage of the same wide beam. If you like to sail where the wind is more myth than reality, then you may need to use the engine more than you desire.
Compromise. <sigh>
Quote from: Frank on April 14, 2016, 01:59:32 PM
When do you plan on 'heading out'?
I'm looking at around 2 years to liquidate my business and other physical assets, and officially become a retired homeless drifter ;-) Well maybe sailor instead of drifter.
H.W.
That does sound like a bargain........ The draft is beyond my target range at close to 5'
One thing to think about with regard to refrigeration is that ice is a great "battery"......... You know the old saying "make ice while the sun shines"..... well that's a paraphrase, it's actually hay you make while the sun shines. It's worth thinking about storing energy this way, as refrigeration is a large electrical draw. During the day when you are keeping a good watch, radar, AIS, nav lights, internal lighting, etc, do not need to be drawing power, so you should be storing solar power both in the batteries and in your "ice battery". The "ice battery" can carry you through nights and cloudy days so what you do have can be running more important things.
Did I just coin a new terms?
H.W.
Quote from: CapnK on April 14, 2016, 07:12:45 PM
There is a Cheoy Lee Luders 30 for sale in almost 'ready to go' condition right now, check the Savannah Craigslist (it's in Yachtworld for $10K) - still finishing, but looks like most of the big work is done - for only $6K. Needs sails, but *that* is a steal.
The guy won't trade me for my Islander 36, I asked. :D He is outfitting an OI 41.
Re: electrically miserly refrigeration - Frank has, like I do, an Engel fridge/freezer. They only draw .8-2.3amps/h; the 2.3 is when freezing down after defrost, compressor running non-stop.
Once stable temp is reached, they hardly run at all. It is hard to hear, but mine cycles less than a minute out of every 10-15.
A dial numbered 0-5 determines interior temps; mine freezes stuff at about 2, I have never put it over 2.5. I'd bet you could make block ice at 5. :)
Awesome machines, pretty expensive and a luxury for sure, and worth every penny and amp, IMO. :D
You've said a lot in those last two paragraphs............... The truth is as I've found out in the past with every endeavor I've ever launched into, that your priorities change, and what seems important at the outset may fade into insignificance later on. My most recent endeavor for example is a case in point. I launched into home brewing (all grain), and brewed 124 batches in 2 years, ultimately going simpler rather than progressing into the complex systems many others resorted to. Rather than progressing into ever stronger beers, I progressed into non-alchoholic brews...... go figure. Could I see the end result at the beginning? Of course not. What I can see is that my natural progression is to simplicity, though there are certain things I must have. For example, whatever boat I end up buying will be converted to an unstayed keel stepped mast with a single large junk rig sail. That eliminates a huge number of parts and systems, all of which are failure points. I am very fond of diesel engines..... I've worked on them all my adult life, and currently own 4 pieces of diesel equipment, only one of which is a vehicle (medium duty truck), so I may well end up living with a diesel marine engine. There are definite advantages to an inboard.........It is however unrealistic to expect to carry enough fuel in a 30' boat to do very many hours of motoring on a long passage regardless of weather it's a Yanmar or a 4 cycle outboard. I am however very confident of my ability to keep the Yanmar running, and service most anything that is going to go wrong with it ....... though they should provide 10K hours of reliable service if taken care of. The main thing is to protect them from seawater where it doesn't belong.
H.W.
There are always going to be trade-offs with any design choice. Being clear and honest about your actual vs. intended vs. idealistic usage is half of the battle. I suppose that may just boil down to hard earned experience. Sometimes you don't really know what you like until you get a good mouthful of it. For example, it's fine to say that you will refrain from using your engine to make port but rather tack back and forth for hours, or days, out of pure idealism. I can say from personal experience that I have not been able to keep my hand off the keys :D
Another example: Even though we've sailed many miles and done what I'd consider a fair bit of cruising over the last decade, I can't honestly say that we've done a very good job of embracing the totally carefree life of cruising without a schedule. Even though we don't have very many responsibilities, it seems like we are still getting caught up in the need to make a plan and try to enact it. I think we could improve on this a lot still, but my point, in short, is that even if you don't have a regular job or are attempting to simply meander around in no hurry, it seems like there is always something to keep you moving along, whether its simply the weather, the tide, the customs office, the dock-master telling you to get out of town, or (god forbid) your own boredom or desire for a change of scenery.
Quote from: Owly055 on April 14, 2016, 09:27:32 PM
Another example: Even though we've sailed many miles and done what I'd consider a fair bit of cruising over the last decade, I can't honestly say that we've done a very good job of embracing the totally carefree life of cruising without a schedule. Even though we don't have very many responsibilities, it seems like we are still getting caught up in the need to make a plan and try to enact it. I think we could improve on this a lot still, but my point, in short, is that even if you don't have a regular job or are attempting to simply meander around in no hurry, it seems like there is always something to keep you moving along, whether its simply the weather, the tide, the customs office, the dock-master telling you to get out of town, or (god forbid) your own boredom or desire for a change of scenery.
And I have fussed at them for that :) :)
I'm right there with you HW. I'm not going to presuppose that I'll be able to get everywhere I want to go, but you start where you are and prioritize from there. A few years ago, this was a distant thought for me. Now, I have a good old boat that will take me quite far once I have her refitted and ready. I'll start with the Gulf Coast and northern Bahamas, and we'll see after that. If I know one thing about myself, it's that I'll end up in the least likely places (and that's always an awesome thing). Don't let the 'wrapping up/ridding of' part intimidate you. It's been a vastly liberating experience for me thus far.
J. Andre
Quote from: Jmandre on April 15, 2016, 02:20:19 PM
I'm right there with you HW. I'm not going to presuppose that I'll be able to get everywhere I want to go, but you start where you are and prioritize from there. A few years ago, this was a distant thought for me. Now, I have a good old boat that will take me quite far once I have her refitted and ready. I'll start with the Gulf Coast and northern Bahamas, and we'll see after that. If I know one thing about myself, it's that I'll end up in the least likely places (and that's always an awesome thing). Don't let the 'wrapping up/ridding of' part intimidate you. It's been a vastly liberating experience for me thus far.
J. Andre
Andre:
What is your good old boat? I'm sorely tempted by the junk rigged Macwester MKII sitting in Santa Cruz harbor Tenrife, a couple of plane tickets away, already set up the way I want though with a bit more draft than I want....... considerable work done, hull worked over with anti osmosis coating and new bottom paint. 3 to 5 weeks cruise away from the Caribbean. It's a bit late this year as the hurricane season is said to start in June...... 2 or 3 months ago would have been decent timing. There is a lot to be said for buying what you want instead of having to modify and refit. Whatever I finally settle on, will be junk rigged, the only rig that makes sense to me for a number of reasons.
Wrapping and Ridding as you term it IS very intimidating. It is the physical confirmation of the end of an era, and a stepping off into the unknown. In my younger years, the confidence borne of ignorance and inexperience, made this pure excitement, the thrill of adventure, untempered by experience and wisdom. Driven by adrenaline and testosterone and a confidence in my own immortality, risk, adventure, and danger were the spice of life. I know that picking up the pieces and starting over is many times the challenge now than it was then when I didn't have a lifetime's accumulation of stuff and experience, when every door was an opportunity and opened into a new adventure.
H.W.
My girl is a humble Balboa 27 (also known as a Balboa 8.2). Just a coastal cruiser, but a fairly heavily built one from the desk of Lyle Hess. For me, a large part of the confidence I have is borne of knowing my vessel, every nut and bolt. So in my case, I deliberately went looking for a cheaper derelict worth putting the time into. It is possible I will end up building a bigger vessel if time and circumstances allow. But if not, I spent the couple of years living aboard the B27 and confirmed that she'll work just fine if she has to. Much comfortable than I had imagined it would be, to be honest. Everything I'm doing now is toward refitting the B27 and streamlining shore bound life to the greatest extent possible. But a great part of my enjoyment comes from refitting and understanding the vessel (or machine) in every way. Many people derive nothing but stress from fixing things, so my path is not for everyone. To me, it seems that is the key here... Come to know what your strong suits are, discover what it is about the life you seek that brings you the greatest peace and happiness, and focus like a laser on those things. To be sure, a fair amount of self reliance is simply prudent in a long distance cruisers life, but all the rest? Fluff and bs, for the most part. Develop a firm understanding of what you seek, and then move on it. Just my humble opinion... :)
Totally understand refitting. Many here have seen these two pics before, but here they are again-
Before and after on Tehani
And for what's it's worth, starting from scratch when halfway (or more) through ones' life is never easy. I had to start from pretty much scratch at 40 myself. Now 7 years later, I've built a small house, I have a solid boat to take me on many adventures, and I do what I want in my own time (for the most part). It's all in prioritizing where you want to be, and put aside everything else. There are sunsets waiting to be seen from the cockpit, and coves waiting to discovered! Adventure has no age limit.
Those pics of Tehani's refit warm my heart Charlie. I have a feeling we'll get along quite well.. ;)
Also, fwiw, I was very conscious of draft when I picked my B27. With the centerboard up she only draws only about 2.5ft, giving me access to many locations a deep keeler could never go. I would reflect hard on that point before you move on that junk-rig boat you mentioned. Not trying to steer you one way or another, just give it plenty of thought before you move on it
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 16, 2016, 01:11:02 PM
Totally understand refitting. Many here have seen these two pics before, but here they are again-
Before and after on Tehani
What an ungodly mess.......... but it clearly looks worse than it is. One nice thing about a refit like this one is that you know every inch of the boat when you get done, and you can make it really "yours". Nice job!
I always thought the Redneck Riviera was from Panama City Florida to Pensacola Bay, not South Texas..........
H.W.
Quote from: Jmandre on April 16, 2016, 01:03:57 PM
My girl is a humble Balboa 27 (also known as a Balboa 8.2). Just a coastal cruiser, but a fairly heavily built one from the desk of Lyle Hess. For me, a large part of the confidence I have is borne of knowing my vessel, every nut and bolt. So in my case, I deliberately went looking for a cheaper derelict worth putting the time into. It is possible I will end up building a bigger vessel if time and circumstances allow. But if not, I spent the couple of years living aboard the B27 and confirmed that she'll work just fine if she has to. Much comfortable than I had imagined it would be, to be honest. Everything I'm doing now is toward refitting the B27 and streamlining shore bound life to the greatest extent possible. But a great part of my enjoyment comes from refitting and understanding the vessel (or machine) in every way. Many people derive nothing but stress from fixing things, so my path is not for everyone. To me, it seems that is the key here... Come to know what your strong suits are, discover what it is about the life you seek that brings you the greatest peace and happiness, and focus like a laser on those things. To be sure, a fair amount of self reliance is simply prudent in a long distance cruisers life, but all the rest? Fluff and bs, for the most part. Develop a firm understanding of what you seek, and then move on it. Just my humble opinion... :)
Great post!
Loving these exchanges!!
A bit of the "passion" shown years ago when this site started!!
Keep it going!
Quote from: Owly055 on April 16, 2016, 02:36:09 PM
I always thought the Redneck Riviera was from Panama City Florida to Pensacola Bay, not South Texas..........
H.W.
My ex and I used to host a 4th of July Cruise here on Matagorda and surrounding bays, called "The Redneck Riviera Cruise"
and then there's this- give a listen This is Gary P Nunn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtS3-f-H2C4
Quote from: Jmandre on April 16, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
Also, fwiw, I was very conscious of draft when I picked my B27. With the centerboard up she only draws only about 2.5ft, giving me access to many locations a deep keeler could never go. I would reflect hard on that point before you move on that junk-rig boat you mentioned. Not trying to steer you one way or another, just give it plenty of thought before you move on it
My arbitrary maximum draft is 4', but less would be preferable....... however shallow draft often results inability to point high into the wind, and excessive leeway. To loosely paraphrase an aviation saying, every boat is a bunch of compromises sailing in close formation...... Note that I just found conflicting draft information. One place lists 1.5 meter, and one lists 1.1 meter (3'8")........ perhaps there are two versions. The lower portion of the bilge keels are bolted on cast iron pieces, so it's possible.
As I've said before, junk rig is non-negotiable for numerous and very good reasons...... A conversion is a complex task, particularly when it's a boat built with liners as virtually every modern boat is, due to the need to move the mast significantly forward. I've done many non-marine conversions, and have few illusions with regard to the cost and time involved in doing a good job. The only possible conclusion is that a boat that has been well converted, as this Sunbird conversion has, is worth far more than a boat and a dream. I know how people are inclined to simply make do because it's cheaper and easier. If for example I were to purchase a Westerly Konsort in the UK, which is where most of them are, I would not be well positioned to do the conversion in a boatyard there, as I have no resources even remotely close, however knowledgeable people willing to give advice and perhaps even a helping hand might be easier to find there than here..... with a little leg work. Not quite so outrageous would be purchasing a BF29 in Michigan or somewhere in that neck of the woods, that while thousands of miles from home is still well within driving range. Alternatively the MacWester in Tenrife would take relatively little to get ready to put to sea, though would entail some research as far as import, and what actually constitutes importation. Presumably you have to "import" it at least on paper to register it with the US Coast Guard, and US flag it. I'm not at all sure what happens if you don't actually "live" in a US state as far a registration fees and sales taxes. There is a lot of stuff to research.
H.W.
Solid points, all. You'll hear no argument from me on the junk-rig. If I do end up building a larger boat, I'm strongly considering a junk-rig myself. 4' or less should work well, and you can always pack a nesting/sailing dinghy if you really want to shallow-water sail... ;)
J. Andre
Adding a somewhat larger boat to the list. The Tartan 34, which has a solid reputation. Draft minimum is about 4', draft max about 8'4", beam 10.17. The keel is kind of a hybrid that starts out like a modified full keel, but stops short a bit over 2/3 of the way to the stern, with a swing down centerboard, and a skeg hung rudder aft, a mast a bit over 40', and 526' of sail area as a masthead sloop. There appears to be more to like about this boat than to dislike. The compromises all seem to be decent ones.
H.W.
That's exactly the keel design my B27 has. Shoal-draft integral keel that is longer than your typical fin-keel, with a centerboard that drops down to around 6ft. Very versatile setup, at least it seems that way to my eye.
J. Andre
Quote from: Jmandre on April 26, 2016, 12:23:36 PM
That's exactly the keel design my B27 has. Shoal-draft integral keel that is longer than your typical fin-keel, with a centerboard that drops down to around 6ft. Very versatile setup, at least it seems that way to my eye.
J. Andre
Andre:
It seems versatile to me also, though it's more moving parts, and I have a distinct preference for a keel hung rudder.......... Sailing over an unseen fishing net, or grounding, etc, a full keel has the full length of the hull to support it, as well as beam strength in and of itself. This however is an excellent compromise, as you always must give up something to get something it would seem. In this case the shallow draft in a roomier boat. My concern with this boat as I intend a junk rig conversion is the amount of canvas. That's a lot of sail area for a single sail, and a lot of weight to lift on the halyard. Junk rigs normally use a multi line block setup due to the weight of the sail and battens, and most folks don't use winches with them, though there is no reason not to. Every additional system, is an additional failure point, weather it be a pivoting center board, or a winch.
It's smaller sibling, the 27 is on my list.......but only marginally, as I don't consider the interior layout suitable for passage making except for the 28-2. The galley gobbles up one sea berth, and I feel that there needs to be a good sea berth both port and starboard so there is always a lee berth. A lee cloth is a solution but not an ideal one. The -2 corrects for this. There is an abundance of the Tartans out there, at seemingly very attractive prices............. The question being why?
H.W.
Here you go
https://mobile.craigslist.org/boa/5527813452.html
Quote from: Lars on April 27, 2016, 02:01:55 PM
Here you go
https://mobile.craigslist.org/boa/5527813452.html
What a beautiful boat!! A labor of love.
H.W.
Very nicely done