Well, I've put it off long enough. Now is the time!
This weekend I plan on doing some glass work on my boat. I bought "First Step" last August. Her previous owner had done a LOT of modifications. She has three small thru-hulls (sealed up)and one fairly large thru-hull that is connected to a seacock. I'm planning on removing and glassing over the three smaller ones.
My plan is this:
These are gonna be 1 inch holes, all below the water line. I'll be using epoxy and cloth and working from the inside. After removing the thru-hulls and sanding and beveling, I plan on making a "puck" to insert in the 1 inch hole holding it in place on the outside with a plastic sheet and tape. Then I'll do a fill with epoxy and silica, then begin applying the cloth and building up.
When done, I should only have a 1 inch or so spot to paint on the hull.
What do you think? Any suggestions? Tips? Warnings?
I'll post pics of the progress as I go.
Fair winds,
Nick
You will need glass on the outside also. DO NOT rely on just the puck holding- if it fails your boat goes down. Nothing wrong with using a puck as a filler to set the glass against on both sides, but you need to taper each side, then back fiill with glass out past the hole.
Here's a link to an article in the Gougeon's EpoxyWorks magazine on how to repair holes. Click on "Boat Repair & Restoration" then when that comes up, click on "Repairing machined holes in fiberglass"
http://www.epoxyworks.com/indexprojects.html
By the way- I did the same thing on the last two boats I had. Tehani had SEVEN holes below the waterline when we got her and only three of them even had valves- the rest were just pipes glassed to the hull. She now has none, zero, nada, zip. ;D
Thanks, Charlie!
Quick question: When doing this from both sides, after beveling, cleaning etc.,do you glass one side first (say the inside) and then the outside? Or try to do both the inside and outside at the same time?
Thanks,
Nick
I would recommend that the primary glassing be done from the outside...as the water pressure will be helping to hold the repair in place, rather than working against the repair...but that's just me. Also, properly cleaning the surface before sanding the material is very important. Sanding can imbed certain impurities that can interfere with the proper bonding of the repair, like silicone.
It is probably easier to glass one side and then glass the other. Pushing on both sides of the repair is a good way to prevent the laminate from bedding properly on one side or the other... Also, I generally recommend going largest patch to smallest, that way, if you are fairing the repair, the sanding can't cut through the largest layer of glass, and any sanding that hits glass will remove a bit from the edges of each layer, rather than putting a hole in the outermost layer.
Largest patch to smallest? That's interesting. I haven't heard that before. I have seen it in the West System document but always wondered if that was a perception thing.
Well, fiberglass gets its strength from the long, uninterrupted fibers...and when you do a repair, the glass is often sanded a bit from fairing the repair. If you go from the smallest (deepest in) to the largest, the sanding will damage the largest patch, possibly even sanding a hole through it...greatly weakening the repaired area.
If you go from the largest patch, being deepest, to the smallest, then the sanding is most likely going to damage the ends of the glass strands, which doesn't really affect the strength of the repaired area, as your just trimming the glass fibers to length, nut cutting them in half.
Ah...I'm beginning to see the light! ;D
Another thing is this; a couple of these thru-hulls are almost directly on the bottom. Seems this is going to be a little difficult getting things to set without sagging.
Any suggestions?
A. Use as little resin as possible, as long as all the threads of glass are wet out. What you want is totally wet glass, with NO excess. Hard to do but do-able.
B. You can lay a piece of plastic such as visqueen over the glass and squeegee it down getting a smooth. But then you need to grind that to get tooth, so I'd only do it on the final layers.
Actually you really don't get a lot of sag if there is little or no excess resin. Just lay in the first layer, then let that kick till it's tacky, THEN lay in the next few layers. Then go inside and do tha same.
I usually do 3 - 4 layers on one side, then go to the other, alternating til the thickness is built. Then sand smooth and roll on a final thin smooth seal coat of epoxy.
Thanks, Charlie.
And you agree with Adrift At Sea on working larger to smaller?
You can use a slightly thickened epoxy... might want to get a recent issue of Practical Boat Owner, which had a very good article on fiberglass repairs, as presented by West Epoxy. I'd also check out West Epoxy's website: http://www.westsystem.com/
Polyethylene plastic is also good to use, as epoxy doesn't stick to it very well, and it might be easier to find than visqueen sheeting.
I hope this helps.
BTW, the page you want is located at http://www.epoxyworks.com/21/practical.html (http://www.epoxyworks.com/21/practical.html )
darn frame-based websites don't let you book mark pages properly.
I really appreciate al the help from you guys!!
Obviously, I'm a little nervous about my first glass project.
Good luck...post pix and let us know if you run into any snags...we'll help where we can. :D
absolutely and for the reasons he gave.
Adriftatsea- that link doesn't work- that's why I gave him the main page and told him where to click. Don't know WHY it won't go there directly, but it doesn't seem to want to.
And polyethylene plastic is what I meant- called it visqueen for to many years I guess ;D
The link does work, if I hadn't typed a invisible character after the end... ugh Try this:
http://www.epoxyworks.com/21/practical.html
:D
AH- good- that's the article I pointed out to him. Really good info in there. In fact, Epoxyworks is a really good read for anyone messing with the stuff.
As you may have read in some of my other posts, the PO of my boat, "First Step", made many modifications--many of which have left me scratching my head. Of the numerous thru-hulls, there is on on the lower starboard side of the transom that's connected to a seacock. The seacock has a "T" fitting with one hose going up to a thru-hull at the top of the transom and another that APPEARED to be going into the swing keel trunk.
Well, last night, I did some in-depth checking and made a discovery.
This whole contraption is the plumbing for a marine head that he must have had on the boat at one time! The hose that I thought was going into the keel trunk is actually going into the bilge area and ends where the head was.
Since we use a porta-potti on board, this connection is superfluous. At least I now know that it can be removed without causing any issues. Of course, this will be a major glassing project and--as the connection is good and there are no leaks--I'll hold off until towards the end of the sailing season to remedy it.
It'll be a bit of bugger as the seacock is located quite low on the transom and it'll take a little ingenuity to figure out how to bevel the area for the patch. I'll do this after I do the three other little thru-hulls and gain some experience.
Mystery solved!!
Fair winds,
Nick
And again, that is one reason I really hate frame-based websites. You can't bookmark anything worth a darn. :D
Seadogg- How is the great glassing project going???
Welllll..... weather and some family obligations have gotten in the way at the moment. I'm hoping to be able to spend an entire day working on this. Or, at least, have the day available if need be.
Of course, there's always the dilemma of, "It's a nice day! Do I spend it working on the boat or do I go sailing?!!" ;D
Also, I finally discovered the answer to one of my boats mysteries in another post here. Which, of course, means another project.
Soon ..... I'll keep you all informed.
Fair winds,
Nick
The prep continues!
I've been getting LOTS of great advice from the sailing community. Charlie, Adrift, Dave, and a lot of other folks have been kind enough to share their experiences with me so I don't have to reinvent the wheel!
I've been practicing with my epoxy and fiberglass cloth and now feel pretty comfortable with the procedure.
Soooo...I'm hoping to remove the first thru-hull tonight, clean up the area, sand it to a nice 12-1 bevel (wearing all the right gear, of course!) and get ready to do my first glass repair.
I've chosen the thru-hull on the very bottom of the boat as my first fix. :o
I'll be posting pics and let everyone knows how it goes.
I'm VERY much looking forward to having a solid hull!! :)
Fair winds,
Nick
BTW, the Tyvek Bunny Suit is important if you don't want to spend the next week itching. :D
So, I've been getting prepared to do some work on First Step and to remove some thruhulls the previous owners had installed, which I don't need.
The fewer holes in your boat, the better. Right?
Of course, Michigan is experiencing very high temps right now. Epoxy cure time will probably be on the order of 2.5 seconds. ;)
Saturday morning, it didn't feel too bad out and I began the work of removing the first thru-hull. I picked the one on the bottom of the boat (transducer?) figuring it would be best to get the roughest one out of the way first.
Now, I've been a bit nervous about this. In my mind, I've been thinking that the PO probably did something funky and I would wind up with
a. a thruhull that had been glassed in or
b. had 5200 lathered all over it
and therefore
c. I'd wind up NOT being able to remove and having
d. a cracked/messed up bit of marine hardware that
e. would prevent the boat from ever being water-tight again!
Ah, the things our imaginations like to do to us...
Well, I grabbed the channel locks and in less than five minutes, had the thru-hull removed with no cracking, smashing, or cussing. Pretty sweet!
I then began the process of dewaxing and cleaning up. It was at this point that I noticed that I'm gonna have to be a little creative.
The hull is 1/2" thick at this point, not 1/4" thick like I had previously thought. Therefore, the 12-1 bevel SHOULD be around 6" from the hole. The problemis, the hole is only 2 1/2" away from the keel trunk. Hmmm....
So, I have decided that I will bevel the outside in a warped oval shape. 6" where I can and 2 1/2" where I have to. On the inside, I will bevel down and up the inside of the keel trunk. This way, what I can't properly do on the outside, I should be able to get closer on the inside.
I hope it works. I don't see why it shouldn't.
However, about the time I made the decision to go this route, the temps had begun their climb and it was getting a bit uncomfortable. I just couldn't picture myself putting on long sleeves, a coverall, a head piece, goggles, respirator, and then crawling under the boat to grind away fiberglass. Having not done this before, I have no idea how long it would take.
Sooo.... as soon as the temps cool down a little bit (under 99 would be nice), I'll actually be able to get some work done.
I'll post pics and keep you informed.
Fair winds,
Nick
You may need to start early in the morning to get that done. Going by the global warming show I saw last night, it will geting hotter sooner and longer these days.
or
Install a cooling unit in your protection suit. :)
Assuming that you're using epoxy resin, the one thing you do have to watch out for is condensation on the working area, especially if you're working late into the evening. Condensation can cause the epoxy problems with curing properly in some cases. Also, don't forget to rinse the epoxy to get rid of the amine blush if you are going to continue on an area started the previous day. :D
Schedule clear?--Check!
All tools and materials ready?--Check!
Consulted and re-consulted with the local fiberglass experts here?--Check!
Weather under 100 degrees?--Check!
Tomorrow morning, after my morning coffee and crossword with my beautiful wife, I will begin the grinding and reglassing process.
No, really. I mean it. :D
I'll definitely get the bottom thruhull hole reglassed. Maybe the other two. All depends on how the first one goes and if I can get to them. I'm hoping I get inspired!!
Again, thank you, thankyou, thankyou, to everyone for their help.
Pictures to be posted.
Nick
You can do it Nick!
IMHO, you may want to prep the other ones because once you see just how easy it is you are gonna go ahead and do them all.
The prep is really the hard part.
Also, cut as many 'patches' as you think you are gonna need, and then cut a couple 'extras' just in case. You may drop one that has epoxy on it, and the dirt and grass it will be covered with won't make the repair any stronger... ;D So if you plan to patch 3 layers from the outside, then cut a couple pieces that are in between the sizes. It is hard to operate sicsiors with epoxy covered rubber gloves on.
When you are done, you will be suprised how easy it was.
May the epoxy be with you...
Be one with the fiberglass. ( but not literally )
;D
Thanks, Zen!
Hope you and Lady Z have a great weekend .
Nick
Besides, once you've got the tyvek bunny suit on, the idea of not doing all three at once is kind of silly. Try not to get epoxy on yourself, or anywhere else you don't want it.... Don't forget to wear a good respirator to capture the styrene fumes, which are pretty nasty, and the fiberglass particles, which are also nasty.
If you DO get resin on the skin, Glen-L sells a cleaner (http://www.boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=08%2D535) that takes it off really good and has skin conditioners and the like in it. It is realy good stuff. As I understand it, any waterless hand cleaner (from auto parts stores for example) will do nicely as well.
Even still, it wears off in a few days and aside from being sticky while it cures or ugly, no real harm done.
I keep a pump type container of GoJo Natural Orange in my shop always. Works well for removing epoxy.
Vinegar is also a useful solvent for uncured epoxy- cleans tools quite well, although I commonly use lacquer thinner for tools. Either white or regular vinegar will do.
Acetone sometimes reacts with epoxies, so I try to not use that, although it's a good solvent.
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 22, 2006, 10:31:55 AM
Acetone sometimes reacts with epoxies, so I try to not use that, although it's a good solvent.
It also does not react well with your lungs :o
Quote from: Zen on July 22, 2006, 10:39:18 AM
It also does not react well with your lungs :o
Huh? Acetone is not "bad" for you, especially in a well ventilated area. We used to use acetone (indoors) by the 55 gal drum. Having been a chemist for 25 years or so, I've used a LOT of acetone in my career.
You treat it like any other solvent, but other than that, it's not bad. (Ie, no huffing ;D ).
Gasoline is FAR FAR FAR FAR worse to breathe, and you probaby inhale a LOT more gasoline at the pump filling up your car than you do acetone working outside prepping or cleaning up a glass project.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound preachy, but I've seen these references to acetone on other forums like it is some kind of WAY dangerous, don't-handle-it-at-all toxic chemical...and that is bunk. I'm not saying YOU said that, Zen. I just wanted to 'set the record straight.'
Just be careful with Acetone. IIRC it is skin absorbtive...and not so good for your internal organs IMHO.
Vinegar is probably the safest of the ways to clean off uncured epoxy. One warning about having uncure epoxy sit on your skin—it can eventually cause you to become allergic to epoxy, and that is something you probably want to avoid.
Captain Smollett:
What say you about MEK and Tolulene? These are also used in prep for repair work. Any chemical consultations are appreciated. ;)
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on July 22, 2006, 03:01:08 PM
Just be careful with Acetone. IIRC it is skin absorbtive...and not so good for your internal organs IMHO.
Not true. Acetone is not absorbed throught the skin. In labs, we often wash glassware with it before washing with detergent. It does, however, dissolve (and therefore remove) the protective oils from your skin - it will dry your skin out. So, you want to limit direct exposure. Actually, I use acetone for washing some things off my hands, then wash with soap and water. Some slight direct exposure will cause no acute or chronic health effects. Period.
It's only not good for you if you DRINK it or breathe LOTS vapors. It is also flammable. There are, however, a LOT of 'rumors' about how dangerous acetone is floating around.
If you practice ordinary shop safety with it, it is a relatively save solvent to handle. Like I said, the hydrocarbons (gasoline, diesel, mineral spirits, etc) are worse to handle. If you handle mineral spirits in your shop, or fill your car/boat up with gasoline yourself, you have nothing whatsoever to worry about handling acetone.
Quote
What say you about MEK and Tolulene? These are also used in prep for repair work.
MEK is methyl ethyl ketone, whereas acetone is methyl methyl ketone. They are VERY similar to each other is all respects. In one plant I worked in in Charlotte, NC, we used MEK by the tanker load -- that's train tanker. Handle with care, proper ventilation, the usual precautions.
Toluene is similar to benzene, and both are key components of gasoline (see earlier comments about handling gasoline). They fall into the aromatic hydrocarbon class of chemicals (aromatic means a specific chemical property, not really related to odor) and are known carcinogens (cancer causers). The total aromatic content of gasoline (there's a bunch of 'em in there) is limited to 35% in California, for example, and we are all aware of all the danger warning labels about breathing gasoline vapors. I'd be more weary of handling toluene and benzene than acetone or MEK, but again, with proper ventilation you can do it.
The key with all of these is, again, proper ventilation. That's outside as a first choice, a WIDE OPEN shop (with fans) as a second. No closed shops. An air conditioner is not 'ventilation,' so a closed up air conditioned shop is not, in itself, properly ventilated. You CAN choose to wear a respirator with VOC filter if you want extra protection (really, outside, you should not need it).
Tha's my two cents, and I've been a chemist for 25 years (BS and PhD), I've taught chemistry at three universities and one college and have owned my own chemical consulting business for six years. I've also been a volunteer firefighter and ran a forensic chemistry laboratory and testified as an expert chemist in State and Federal Courts. Finally, I worked in a lab handling some of the most toxic substances known to man (the EPA Hazardous Materials Reference Bank Extreme Hazard Laboratory located in Research Triangle Park, NC in the late 80's).
Believe me, there's FAR worse stuff than over-the-counter shop solvents. If they sell it at the hardware store, it AIN'T that dangerous.
Now MEKP, that's another animal. THAT'S the catylst ( methyl ethyl ketone PEROXIDE) in polyester resin and IT ain't good for you. ;D ;D
Thanks for an authoritive write up on Acetone and other solvents, sir.
Quote from: CharlieJ on July 22, 2006, 05:03:56 PM
Now MEKP, that's another animal. THAT'S the catylst ( methyl ethyl ketone PEROXIDE) in polyester resin and IT ain't good for you. ;D ;D
Yepper, peroxides are a lot of 'fun.' Some are highly explosive. Ethers can form peroxides just sitting around in the bottle, and they are sometimes friction sensitive. In other words, the peroxide crystals form on the ether bottle cap and threads, and when you try to unscrew the cap ....
BOOOOM :o :o
A chemist friend of mine once had a job designing 'more powerful' chemical explosives. It was with peroxides he was working.
Well, saturday came and went without an opportunity to work on the boat.
But Sunday, I managed to a little bit done.
First, I'll show you what was there.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_1.jpg)
This thru hull was on the bottom of the boat right next to the swing keel. I'm thinking it was originally used for a transducer. Instead of removing it and reglassing the hole, the previous owner decided to attach a hose and use caulk to seal it.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_2.jpg)
Pop! She's outta there!!
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_3.jpg)
Exterior view. Not much room between the hole and the keel.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_4.jpg)
I ground out six inches from the hole EXCEPT the keel side. That one was only 2 inches. on the inside, I ground up the side of the keel trunk and laid down 4 layers of glass.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_5.jpg)
After creating the patch on a piece of plastic sheeting, I transferred it over to the hull and smoothed it on. Then I duct taped it up. "Poor man's vacuum bagging".
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_6.jpg)
Interior view of the glass/epoxy patch. Tomorrow I'll know how well I did. Then, I'll sand it, fair it, sand again, and paint.
Whew! What a job. However, this was the hardest one and, now that it's out of the way, I'm looking forward to doing the ones that are easier to get to.
I'll let you know what transpires.....
Nick
Good job, Nick. That sure likes like a wicked awkward place to do such work.
You're not kidding!!!
When I was grinding, I was in such a weird position that it was hard to even see what I was doing.
After I got the patch in place and smoothed it out, my arms were so tired I had a heck of a time just pulling the tape off the roll!
After I got done, I crawled out from under the boat, tossed my clothes off and fell into the pool. Ahhh....
Think I did pretty well, though. And only had a small itchy patch on my wrist area from the fiberglass dust. :D
I think the falling in the pool saved you an awful lot of itching...made more work for the pool filters though. :D Looking good so far.
Got home from work and removed the VizQueen (plastic sheeting).
The repair looks pretty good.
Next, I'm going to wash off the wax and then sand down some rough spots and prep it for fairing.
After I get the fairing on and it begins to set, I'm going to coat it with some fresh un-mixed epoxy, let 'er cure, and apply the paint.
More pics to come!
As promised, I'm posted some pics of the end of this great struggle!
First, I faired and sanded and faired and sanded and faired and sanded
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_FairedSanded.jpg)
Until I got the shape just about right.
Then, I painted about four coats of Interlux, letting it cure about 16 hours between coats.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_painted.jpg)
And she was finished!!!!
Here, the infamous Nick Vader plots another fiendish plan to rule the waters!!!!
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10164/normal_NickVader.jpg)
We just took the boat out to our local pond for the leak test. I am pleased to announce that all went well, there were no leaks, and the patch appears strong and secure. it's not the most beautiful looking, but, considering the location, I'm very happy with the way it turned out.
Many, many, many thanks to all of you for all of your help, guidance, and insights!
Fair winds,
Nick
Nice work! I'm overdue for some bottom paint...care to come on down and knock that out for me? ;D
What, no photo of you in a Tyvek Bunny Suit?? Looks pretty good... what's next?
my wife and i have both taken the week off.
Got a couple of projects to do around the house. Other than that, we're keeping our eye on the weather forecast to do a a little Great Lakes sailing.
I'm planning on doing the three other (and more visible) thru-hulls a little later this season; I want the boat available for sailing!
Fair winds,
Nick
I am looking a a 1979 Catalina 22 to buy as my first boat. While looking her over I saw a crack on the deck like it had taken a hard bump on the dock. It is about 4 inches long.
Now I don't know anything about fiberglass an was wondering if I should forget this one and keep looking?
I've got the love just not the funds to go out and buy one that is in excellent shape.
All advice will be greatly appreciated.
David
Just about anything on a fiberglass boat can be repaired.
But it may take some real work depending on exactly where it is. Perhaps you could post some pics of the crack and let some of the glassy minded (*) dudes here check it out to be more specific?
(*) No, that does not only refer to Kurt after he and Frank get together. ;D :P ;D
Thanks for the reply. Sorry no picture at this time. I'll have to wait till Sunday to go back over to take some. In the mean time if I can find a picture of the forward deck of a Catalina I could mark the spot where the crack is and this might help.
Take care
David
I have some cracks in my gel coat that most people tell me are normal for an older boat, stress here and there, and time takes it's toll.
For instance in the cockpit, at the end of the seating area where it meets the companionway, there is a web of radiating cracks at the corner. Very small, but is there any way to fix them easily? Do I even need to fret about them or is this just par for the course?
I don't want to paint the boat.
Quote from: Lost Lake on January 08, 2008, 11:21:05 PM
I don't want to paint the boat.
Hmmm. That last is probably going to make an inconspicuous repair that much harder.
I've heard of some folks simply painting over the cracks if they are small enough...let the paint fill 'em in. This may not be the "recomended" way, but I've heard it done.
A Gel Coat Repair kit might get you through....personally, I've not had much luck matching color, though, but admittedly, I only did this on a blue stinkpot.
Probably the "best" way to truly repair, (ie, strengthen) the cracks is to grind them out to a "V" shape with a dreml tool (and V bit), fill the grooves with thickened epoxy (or polyester, maybe we can get a good old fashioned flame-war over this... ;D ), let cure and sand off smooth. Especially if you use epoxy, you WILL have to paint after this.
Hope this helps.
However, if they are stress cracks, just gelcoating over the area again, even with Capn Smollett's good repair directions, is only going to delay them showing up again. If they are stress cracks, then the area needs to be reinforced and strengthened to prevent the stress cracks from recurring.
BTW, you can gelcoat over epoxy resin. :) There's a good paper on it over at the west systems site.