This should be an easy one for most of you guys, but It's making me crazy. I feel an urgent need to do away with all of the through hull fittings on Puff, but there are at least two problems. First, I'm not sure that my alternative plans are sound, and second...I have no experience with fiberglass repairs.
Here's a picture of two fittings that were apparently installed for the same purpose: galley sink drain. The one below the waterline has a capped plastic hose, and the upper one is connected to the sink and works quite well. Should I grind down and patch the hole that is below the waterline, or just install a new fitting with a valve?
Different schools of thought on which, if either, of those two through hulls to keep for your sink drain. On the one hand, it would be nice to get rid of below waterline holes; if you want to do that, keeping that hole right AT the waterline is not gaining much. How often sailing does the boat sit right on her lines athwartships?
On the other hand, if you wanted to keep a sink drain and continue to use one of those two through hulls, the lower one may drain a bit better on a heel. How far below the bottom of the sink is the upper one, anyway?
You can get rid of both, and go 'sink drainless' which has a lot of merit but introduces at least a tiny bit of inconvenience.
On patching the holes, it is not hard, but does take getting ready before you start (to save frustration). There are a couple of ways to do it that differ only in details, but since these holes are at/below waterline, you do want to proceed "properly."
Here I'll assume for completeness that you don't have any glass working materials or experience. If this is too dumbed down, sorry...just trying to be thorough.
Materials Needed:
a. Epoxy resin and appropriate hardener; WEST System works well, but is expensive compared to, say MAS. Don't use a hardener that is "too fast" for the temperature, and don't worry about 'non-blush' hardener or special finish hardeners. Get the pumps for whatever epoxy you choose.
b. Thickening agents. You'll want two. First, you need a 'bonding/filleting' thickener like colloidal silica and second, you need a fairing thickener like microballoons or WEST's 410.
c. Paper cups, single use, disposable gloves (I prefer nitrile because latex bothers me), paper towels, stirring sticks (I get paint stirrers for free, then break them into quarters for doing epoxy work...don't spend $$ on tongue depressors - and save a largish piece as a scoop for your thickeners), a can of acetone and some cloth rags.
d. Glass cloth; 6 oz is plenty heavy. If this is all you are doing, you won't need much. A 38 inch by 90 inch packaged piece from West Marine is about $45, which is way more than you need if this is your only project. If only doing this, they sell it by the yard off a big roll for about $14 / yard...1 yard will do this job and have left over.
e. Angle grinder with about 36 grit on a sanding disk if you have it.
f. 80, 100, 150 and 200 grit sandpaper for a random orbit and hand sanding blocks.
g. I suggest a full filtered respirator for the grinding stage, but I use regular air filter masks for mixing the thickeners and final sanding. If you are working outside, you don't have to worry about epoxy fumes, but the thickener "dust" is not good to breathe. - you get a lot of dust while mixing and again when sanding.
h. I like using those cheap "Chip Bristle" brushes for epoxy work...they are $1 each (or less) and use 'em once, throw the away. I've found trying to clean epoxy (or polyester) out of brushes to be a losing proposition. Also, you may want to have a few size 'putty knife' type scrapers handy, and plastic works (and cleans up) the best.
The Method I used to patch a below waterline hole on my last haul-out (after removing the through hull fitting):
(1) Grind out the glass 12:1 around the hole inside and out (I was a bit shy on the inside due to a hull liner...). That is, take the thickness of your hull (it's not cored, is it?), and multiply by 6 (essentially dividing by two then multiplying by 12). That's how much to bevel out bigger than the hole that's already there.
If anything, bevel it out bigger, not smaller; I added a slight fudge factor.
For example, if you currently have a 1 inch diameter hole in a 1/2 inch hull, the bevel should be at least 1 1/2 inches larger in radius than the current hole. Go bigger, say 2 inches, if you are doing it from both inside AND outside.
If only from the outside, make the bevel 3-4 inches larger than the existing hole.
36-ish grit sandpaper on an angle grinder makes short work of griding the bevel.
(2) Make a "plug" that just fits the hole and is pretty thin - certainly thinner than the thickness of the hull. I made my plug by pouring some epoxy resin into a small paper cup and letting it cure. After tearing the paper cup away, the plug was too large, so I 'shaped' it down by sanding against a disk sander.
(3) Cut circles of glass cloth to cover the hole. Start with the diameter of the bevel and make each circle slightly smaller until you have the diameter of the original hole. I have mostly used AT LEAST 6 layers of cloth for this, but more is better if you can fit them.
Remember, the cloth will lay up thinner once wetted out, so if it looks like your 6 (8, 12, however many) layers over fill the hole a little bit, they probably won't once you actually lay them in. In fact, I suggest you make up a few extra circles to have ready in case you have a "dimple" after laying in your last one. You want a very slight dimple to allow for fairing (so you don't have to sand down onto the cloth), but not much.
Once they are all cut, arrange your circles so you can lay on the largest one first, then the next largest one, etc.
If doing from inside and out, you'll obviously need two sets of cloth circles.
(4) THOROUGHLY clean the bevel and the plug with acetone before starting the actual glass work.
(5) Wet out the area of the bevel (or both, inside and out if doing that way) and the plug, and stick the plug in the hole. Try to center it and get is straight, though I don't think this is super critical or anything.
(6) Mix up some thickened epoxy. Begin by mixing the resin and hardener and stirring them together really good. You have to sneak up on the correct thickness, and it's easier to mix in a little at a time anyway. It's usually described as equivalent to something familiar like "ketchup" (pretty thin and runny), "mayonaise" (thicker, but still pretty thin) and "peanut butter" (thick enough to support it's own weight).
I prefer the thick side of peanut butter for most things. So, add some silica, stir it in and test the thickness. If you want it thicker, add some more, stir, etc. Once you think you are getting CLOSE to the thickness you want to be, slow down...it is VERY easy to 'overshoot' and end up with what amounts to wet powder that won't work. I've done that a few times trying to rush (this is why you choose your hardener to give you time to work).
Once you have a good peanut butter thickness, dab it around the plug to form a fillet all the way around, thus bonding the plug to the middle section of the hole. You can use your (glove covered) finger to dab and form this fillet. Don't worry about making it shaped perfectly...no one's ever going to see this handiwork.
You need a fillet inside and out if you beveled from both sides.
Let the fillet cure while you go do something else.
(7) After the fillet is cured, sand around the fillet if necessary to smooth any sharp bumps; sand it with 'rough' paper so the next layer can 'bight.'
(8) Clean the area thoroughly; you can wash with water and acetone, but before proceeding, make sure things are both clean and dry.
(9) Begin laying in the cloth. There are a couple of methods to doing this: (a) you can hold up the dry cloth and add resin, (b) wet out the cloth "off job" and lay it in wet, (c) some combination.
For a small layup like this, I prefer to wet out on a plastic covered board (or in one of those few cent throw-away paint trays) and lay the cloth in wet. For large areas, like hull sheathing, it's probably better to fix the cloth in place, then brush/roll/squeegee on the resin. Find what works best for you to get the layup you need.
You don't want too much resin in your cloth...try to keep the resin:cloth ratio low. But that said, you want the cloth fully impregnated. You can tell there's enough if the cloth is clear (dry, it looks white). Scrape or squeegee off the excess, though.
So, start by wetting out the whole bevel area with straight resin. *IF* your fillet is too bumpy or has 'void' areas, mix a little thickened epoxy (mayonaise is good here) to glop on and fill those voids. Remember, the cloth WON'T do it; cloth lays pretty much flat or conforms ONLY to very gentle concave curves...if a void area has sides that are too steep and you don't "fill" them with thickened resin, you'll have a void in your final layup which is BAD.
Once you have a good "fair" surface for the cloth (even if it's wet thickened epoxy), begin laying in your circles, whether wetting off the hull or on it, and again begin with the largest and working down progressively smaller circles. After all the circles are in place, let it cure.
Do inside and out.
(10) After this cures, sand it fairly lightly just to rough it up (the fairing needs something to "bite"). Again, after sanding, thoroughly clean with acetone.
(11) Mix up some resin and wet out the entire area with straight resin. With the resin left over, add some fairing thickener, enough again for peanut butter (but not TOO thick). Dab it on and spread evenly over the slight 'dimple' you left with a putty knife (or similar).
(12) After that cures, sand it fair to the hull with 150 ish grit. It's not a bad idea (and highly recommended with some fairing thickeners such as microballoons) to overcoat the fairing compound with non-thickened resin just to seal the fairing material. You can resand (to keep fair) the resin and paint.
(13) One less hole in the boat!!
It's harder to describe than it is to DO. All of this sounded like a LOT of work and DETAIL to me the first time I did it. Once you get into it, and the steps make sense for what you are doing, it's actually NOT hard and goes pretty smoothly.
Sorry so long...and I hope this helps at least a little bit.
Input from other, more experienced, glass workers ALWAYS welcome.
--John
Wow, thanks for writing an entire instruction manual on how to do this job!! It's exactly what I need. No, it is NOT too dumbed down for me, and it is reassureing in its detail. I'll get my materials list together and go shopping sometime this week.
I've decided to keep the upper sink drain as it is, but I have more holes to fill, so I'll practice on this one. Here is a picture of the fitting and hose after removal. There is limited access to the hole from inside of the boat, but I think I can manage to bevel the inside edge with a little effort.
Excellent post John. Don't see a thing needing to be changed.
I might point out that white vinegar works really well to clean uncured epoxy from tools and skin, but working with epoxy should be in gloves.
Great manual, John! I have some of this type of repair in my future (though perhaps not this season), and this will be a great help.
Good job John.
A few minor thoughts --
If you're wearing breathing protection you should be wearing eye protection as well.
WHY?
You are accomplishing two things with the big bevels:
1. You are avoiding a structural discontinuity that will result in cracking
2. You are ensuring sufficient surface for good adhesion so the patch doesn't peel out.
Everything in John's how-to flows from those two goals.
Woah!! Can this be right? I've drawn a circle to outline the area I'll be grinding down on the outside of the hull measured at two inches from the edge of the hole. The hole is one inch in diameter and the hull is one half inch thick ( not cored ). To me, this looks like a HUGE area to bevel down to half of the hull thickness. I'll be grinding down a slightly smaller area on the inside due to restricted space. Will this weaken the hull, or am I just being a wimp?
It'll be really strong - stronger than if you don't use a big enough bevel.
OK, here we go. First I'll turn on the vacuum and let the suction hold the attachment against the hull while covering the hole. This should help control the dust as I grind down the inside.
Hey, that worked pretty well. Most of the dust went out through the hole and I was able to see well enough to get a reasonably smooth bevel, although a little smaller diameter than I wanted.
Just remember, as Dave said, bigger bevel is better than smaller one. Really try for 12:1 at least. You want this patch to be strong and with proper binding to the hull.
Yes, the bevel diameter does seem awfully big when looking at it. Here's the hole I did on my boat. Look familiar?
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p199/LewisAcid/A30/2008%20Haul%20Out/2008_08_0007_small.jpg)
Yes, it does. I find it hard to judge the bevel depth since this is on a curved part of the hull. I've ground it down to about one eighth of an inch at the hole edge, but the slope to the outer edge of the ground area is curved. Should I use a straightedge to even it up?
Quote from: Snapdragon on May 16, 2011, 08:24:18 PM
Yes, it does. I find it hard to judge the bevel depth since this is on a curved part of the hull. I've ground it down to about one eighth of an inch at the hole edge, but the slope to the outer edge of the ground area is curved. Should I use a straightedge to even it up?
I don't think you need a straightedge to even it up, but I do think I'd grind the bevel a little deeper to make that edge at the hole a little thinner...maybe 1/2 what you've got shown there?
You don't need a 'knife edge' at the hole, but you do want some, uh, bevel to your bevel. ;) Ie, not too flat in the ground portion. Does that make sense?
OK, back on the grinder again. I've ground the outside down until the bevel is a straight line from the outside perimeter to the edge of the hole, and the hole edge is now about one sixteenth inch thick. I laid up a sheet of several layers of fiberglass cloth and resin, then cut a plug from it the same size as the hole. The plug was installed using thickened epoxy as you described. I'll let it cure overnight, then sand, clean with acetone, and start laying on the fiberglass cloth circles tomorrow.
This is the finished product for the fiberglass patch. It ain't pretty, but I don't think it will fall out. What should I use to cover it before I repaint with antifouling paint? The rest of the bottom seems to be painted with a light gray paint (maybe an epoxy?) that is very slick when you rub the bottom paint off.
Quote from: Snapdragon on May 19, 2011, 01:39:09 PM
It ain't pretty.
Actually it looks really good to me. A few coats of paint, and you're ready to go--with at least one fewer holes in your boat.
Nice job!
--Joe
Quote from: Snapdragon on May 19, 2011, 01:39:09 PM
This is the finished product for the fiberglass patch. It ain't pretty, but I don't think it will fall out. What should I use to cover it before I repaint with antifouling paint? The rest of the bottom seems to be painted with a light gray paint (maybe an epoxy?) that is very slick when you rub the bottom paint off.
I didn't cover the prep and painting stages in my initial "how-to." After fairing (and re-sealing with epoxy if you choose to do that), clean, (maybe prime) and paint.
It may be more expensive, but I chose to follow the manufacturers recommendations for the paint I chose. In my case, I was using Interlux ACT bottom paint, so I used THEIR thinner for cleaning. Yeah, I guess any garden variety paint thinner would do, but for what it's worth, it did smell different and I figured my best odds for getting good adhesion with a specific paint was to follow their steps.
I did not specifically prime my repair area with a separate primer...just used several extra coats of bottom paint there.
Now, for larger areas (deck and cabin top), I am priming with the manufacturer recommended primer. In this case, I'm using Pettit Easypoxy, and again following their prep instructions to the letter...including the use of THEIR thinner and their primer.
I've seen and heard too many horror stories of early paint failure to want to take a chance with taking short cuts. Maybe I'm throwing $$ out the window and into the pockets of Interlux and Pettit, but I do like the idea of stacking the odds of my paint lasting more than 4-6 weeks (yes, I have seen paint fail that quick).
There seems to be something fundamentally wrong about having through-hulls this far below the waterline just to drain a cockpit that can?t possibly hold more than six inches of water before overflowing into the motor well.
Grog for a great write up Captain Smollett! Very detailed.
Seconded; I may have a use for that in a couple weeks
I finally got around to closing up the two holes in my boat that were my biggest concern. After rerouting the cockpit drains into the outboard motor well above the waterline, I used my new fiberglassing skills (Grog to Capt. Smollett for the detailed instructions) to eliminate any possibility of a through-hull failure. The cockpit drains are now only about 10 inches long. You can see the new fiberglass patches in the foreground.
This thread is a gold mine of info. Thanks guys.
Over the past couple of months I've been getting a little more experience sailing Puff around the Blackwater, Escambia, and Pensacola Bay area, and I've come up with a short list of things I'd really like to change. I really don't feel qualified to make changes to a boat design that has been around for over forty years, so I'll ask for your input to guide me as I attempt to "re-invent the wheel".
The first item on the list is the annoying rythmic "sloshing" sound that is made by water being trapped in the motor well by the forward motion of the boat. It seems that the rear bulkhead of the motor well, which forms the transom of the boat, extends below the waterline far enough to push water back into the well when under way untill the rising water level develops enough "head" to force the water back out under the transom. This results in a sound similar to someone chopping a rotten log with a dull axe. Kinda detracts from the serenity of the sailing experience.
As a solution, I've decided to cut out a section of the transom about a foot wide to a point about an inch above the waterline. I don't think that there are any structural reinforcements in the area to be cut out, but the transom and aft motor well bulkheads form a double walled area with about a two inch void between them. I plan to install a frame of 2X2 oak strips just inside of the void and lay in a half inch of fiberglass to finish it off fair with the hull. Your input will be much appreciated.
Remind me how large of an outboard you are carrying? I suspect that it has as much to do with trim as it does with design. Might be easier to either add weight forward, or remove / relocate it from aft to get her to sail on her lines.
I know that having a couple extra folks in the cockpit makes Faith drag her stern.. with 'drag' being the imperative word. Adding the big Manson Supreme on the bow, and 60' of chain helped the problem significantly....
... one of the many reasons I would not want to go with the bigger outboard.
Consider adding a false bottom to your outboard well. A false bottom is fitted around the outboard leg, and is not water tight, but slows the flow of water into the well. You can make a two part false bottom with hinges to allow removal of the outboard, or you can make something that you just jam in place, even out of foam. The false bottom can be attached to the outboard leg.
A well designed outboard well false bottom should reduce drag of your hull through the water.
I'm using a Nissan 9.8 four stroke for power that weighs in at a little over 100 lbs. I carry up to 12 gallons of gas in the stbd fuel locker, about 25 lbs of secondary anchor, fenders, and dock lines in the port cockpit locker, one deep cycle battery under the companionway steps, fifteen gallons of water under the port berth just aft of the mast, a 25 lb CQR on the bowsprit with 80 ft of 1/4 inch chain. A spare deep cycle battery and a 55 lb thrust electric trolling motor along with the porta potti which holds about five gallons of water are stored in the forward compartment between the berths. I mostly sail solo, so crew weight rarely exceeds 215 lbs.
On my last trip I also carried some food items stored in the ice box under the dinette seat, and a five gallon container of water on the floor directly under the mast support arch. The noise was most pronounced when sailing on a broad reach with about 10 kts of wind.
If trim is indeed the problem, I'm thinking about taking the outboard out and storing it in the forward cabin and just using the electric trolling motor. This will shift a significant amount of weight forward, and also encourage me to fine tune my sailing skills.
Putting a false bottom in the motor well is an interesting concept, but I'm having trouble visualizing how it would be done. Does anyone have any experience, or perhaps pictures, to give me some ideas?
Some ideas here (James Baldwin site-he posts here)
http://atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/257-tritonsalty-1.html
Before getting out the angle grinder etc, maybe have a word with the Snapdragon Owners Association? - you can't be the first, and given the numbers built would be surprised if not an easy "fix".
I too have an outboard well (RR23). I find the sloshing sounds not unpleasant to the extent that I don't worry about it. I could get vexed but it's a sailboat after all and the sloshing, lapping sounds are par for the course.
I did put 60lb of lead towards the front of the bilge recently and although I haven't been out enough to say for sure, it seems to have smoothed the motion of the boat moving through the water some.
My boat is not stocked for cruising so most of the day sailing weight is towards the back end with OB, fuel, fat helmsman and whatnot.
The proposed area to be removed is marked with tape on the transom, but I think I'll just step away from the cutting tool for a bit and think about this. Maybe I should just move on to item 2 on my list and come back to this problem when I understand it better.
Item 2 on my "bugs me" list is the mainsheet traveler that loops above, and forward of, the motor. It does the job, even if it is a little shakey, but it's right in the way when servicing the motor and makes it very difficult to lift the motor out of the well. Also you can't lock the mainsheet block in position, it's free to slide to either end.
I'm considering attaching a line across the transom to existing padeyes on the extreme corners of the transom and running the mainsheet block to a fixed loop in the middle of the line. Does anyone have experience with this sort of set-up?
Hi Bruce,
Some opt to convert to a cabin-top-mounted traveler, like as the one shown here (http://www.alohaowners.com/projects/mainsheet/mainsheet.htm).
-Jim
I also like the concept of the infill boards that fit around the outboard lower unit.
Here is another example from James Baldwins website (to add to CJs) from an Alberg 35 outboard well conversion (http://atomvoyages.com/articles/improvement-projects/252-saga-1.html) with a good photo of the infill boards. [An interesting modification in general--replacing a 4-cylinder (40-hp?) diesel inboard with a 9.9 hp outboard on a 35-foot sailboat.]
Personally, I would be very reluctant to cut through that corner between the hull and transom, as it seems like it would be a structural change that would require considerable reinforcing around the new opening to maintain the structural integrity of the area. Also feel that the transom and the traditional lines around it are an important character feature of the boat, and worth preserving--especially if you have a good alternative modification in an area that is not so visually prominent [not that it is hugely so...yet I always think of the transom as the place where you apply its name and personalize the boat, etc., and to have one look good and intact does add a lot, IMHO.]
Quote from: Snapdragon on June 20, 2011, 10:25:14 PM
There seems to be something fundamentally wrong about having through-hulls this far below the waterline just to drain a cockpit that can?t possibly hold more than six inches of water before overflowing into the motor well.
From where the cockpit drains are located (at the after corners of the cockpit), could you just run them out through the transom? From the inside one can't see where the waterline is but it might be possible...
That's pretty much what I did Bill, except that I ran them through the forward bulkhead of the motor well. That worked out even better because the through-hull fittings are now hidden from view and are about five inches above the waterline. If you compare the pictures in reply #17 and reply #20 you can see how much shorter the drain lines are.