I used lots of different things from kerosene heaters(too much shmutt)to propane under way( way to go)Its the same thing I use to cook with..I just invert a metal pan somewhat over the burner .but now I am dock bound so I used an electric portable heater ...untill the blower motor burned out...then I got ta thinkin... I got this electric skillet that I use to cook steaks...and that pretty much heats up the main cabin with no problem....its small...doesnt get red hot like the heater element...thats all I need so thats the way I go. besides I am already paying 65 bux per month for electric.winters here in south florida dont last but more than a week or so...even then only the nites are really cold..b4 ya knowit we b in a himmacaine alert
Want a nice cabin heater to run off of engine heat or hot water. Want to look for a deal on a diesel heater. Guess where the now line of boat heaters had their start.
Do a google search for Cab heaters or truck heaters or diesel truck heaters. I found some diesel heaters for much less money on sites for tractor trailer cabs. Oh and they do run better on keroscean that disesel fuel.
I've heated my cabin with a propane lantern - the little kind that screws on a disposable bottle with a single mantle. I've also hung it off the stern and killed tons of bugs for the fish to eat
Cabin heaters for live aboards in Canada are pretty much all electric. We shrink wrap the boats with a plastic cover - that keeps the snow out, allows you to use your cockpit as a sunroom or for storage and when the sun shines it's like being in a greenhouse - can be quite warm. With the shrink wrap enclosure being plastic, that lets out any idea of any kind of a fossil fuel heater - both for the chimney or the fumes. Yes, we cook with propane - but a heater would have a much larger appetite and displace air with exhasut.
I had been using a 3' base board heater to heat with, but it roasts my legs when I'm sitting at the table on the computer. I have now gone to a bathroom style 1500W heater with a fan and built it in to the wall below my bar. We have had a very mild winter so far - yesterday it went up to 52 deg F - all the ice is gone, so I haven't yet needed to switch on a second heater - that one is ceramice heater - both have built in fans. For me to run the second heater I have to turn off the hot water heater.
Quote from: Solace on January 13, 2006, 11:03:50 AM
For me to run the second heater I have to turn off the hot water heater.
If the water is HOT why do you need a water heater ? ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
Hey Starcrest, where in S. FL are you?
I'd just use propane on nights when it got chilly... never to get it truly warm, but enough to take the edge off.
Adam
currently dania beach florida.just south of ft laud.airport.stones thro from south runway. grate place 2 b if you like airplane noise and jet fumes
If at dock, a little electric fan heater keeps the boat toasty. If anchored out, I use a little coleman propane heater, uses the 1#bottle. I heat up the boat prior to bed, turn it off at night and then turn it on first thing in the morning. Boat heats up quick! Even in Florida, heat is needed at times, esp. in the panhandle.
Quote from: Pixie Dust on January 16, 2006, 11:29:36 PM
If at dock, a little electric fan heater keeps the boat toasty. If anchored out, I use a little coleman propane heater, uses the 1#bottle. I heat up the boat prior to bed, turn it off at night and then turn it on first thing in the morning. Boat heats up quick! Even in Florida, heat is needed at times, esp. in the panhandle.
Exact same deal.... don't trust that propane heater though. I just bought a kero 'Shipmate' heater... just trying to figure out where I want to mount it. ::)
On the dock I use an AC oil filled rad, nice and constant, backed up with a ceramic cube. On the hook, I have used a cast iron fry pan filled with any non combustibles, the little Coleman tent heater worked enough to keep the chill off. The best though, is the W&P Trawler lamp, you can read by it and it throws off a lot of heat. I used a 12V portable fan(4D's) to move the air and it was just fine. Downside is all the moisture from fossil fuels.Btw, the fry pan sat on a Force 10 kero stove.
I think G.I. Joes has Mr Heat Buddy on sale for $65. I use one. It takes propane canisters or a addaptor hose to external propane tank.
And of course there is always the old standby- a clay flower pot turned upside down over the stove burner. Just make sure you have a safe place to set the hot pot if you want to take it off. The stainless sink does well. :)
A standard red clay flower pot turned upside down over one of the top burners on the galley stove makes a nice cabin heater. However with propane remember there's a lot of water produced which increases moisture in the cabin but this system does work well. Try one where the burner unit is back aft in 'safe' locker and then sends dry hot air up to the cabin if you have room.
M.
Yep, dangit, it's that time of year again. Bringing the CrewDogs belowdecks at night, for 2 reasons:
1) It's cold out there for them.
2) I can sure use the doggy BTU's inside, myself. :)
35* this morn at sunrise. Yuk. :P :-\ :'(
LOL....just don't let the crewdogz get wet...
Anyone using kerosene (on your boat)?
Yep- only not really kerosene- we burn Mineral Spirits instead, and have for 30 years now.
In our stove, in our lamps, and in our anchor light.
That's my plan, as well, CJ. I have an oil anchor lamp, and am going to purchase a kerosene camping stove (or perhaps a multifuel) for the galley and add oil cabin lamps (only have 12V electric at present).
As an aside, I've burned Citronella in the anchor lamp (even inside the cabin when it was needed as an anchor lamp) and worked very well for mosquito control. When inside, it 'coated' the cabin surfaces with some residue that seemed to help keep the critter at bay even when the lamp was NOT burning.
Just my opinion, but I think kero/oil lamps+stoves give the most options and utilize relatively cheap fuels available world-wide.
Just be aware that alot of the kerosene type lamps can generate a fair amount of Carbon Monoxide...so a CO detector should be onboard...
I'd rather keep you guys alive to comment and advise in the future. Also, some of them will deplete the cabin oxygen levels rather well, even if they're not creating CO...so leave a hatch or port cracked to let fresh air in.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on November 23, 2006, 06:06:43 AM
Just be aware that alot of the kerosene type lamps can generate a fair amount of Carbon Monoxide...so a CO detector should be onboard...
I'll not use a CO detector on board.
Quote
so leave a hatch or port cracked to let fresh air in.
That's the ticket.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 23, 2006, 12:21:17 PM
Interesting, why not?
Just another gadget - something that I would come to rely on and suffer for it it fails. The real answer, to me, is to PREVENT O2 depletion and CO accumulation in the first place, not try to detect it once it is already there. You kill both those birds with one stone by having proper ventilation, which is needed for other reasons as well (reducing condensation, for example).
Soooo, if you need proper ventilation for OTHER reasons, and can accomplish maintaining a proper breathable atmosphere with something you ALREADY have, what does having a failable gadget bring to the table?
It's a matter of personal preference and taste, I suppose, but for me, in this case, the gadget brings nothing.
Isn't that kind of like saying a bilge pump makes me less stringent in maintaining my watertight integrity, so I will not have a bilge pump so I will not become lax with regard to my watertight integrity?
There are times you want to button up, heavy weather, extreme cold, etc. At these times your ventilation is going to be necessarily limited and the CO detector can (could) act as a backup. Gas detectors in general can alert you to the fact that you have a potential problem with some system, like a slow propane leak. They do not replace good maintenance procedures, they act as a second line of defense. IMHO anyway.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 24, 2006, 12:03:21 AM
Isn't that kind of like saying a bilge pump makes me less stringent in maintaining my watertight integrity, so I will not have a bilge pump so I will not become lax with regard to my watertight integrity?
Yes, it's exactly like saying that. We all have choices to make about how far to push what lines we push in the decisions we make. I would be more inclined to "indulge" in a bilge pump than a CO detector. Given a finite amount of money with which to buy stuff and finite time and money to maintain it, and limited willingness to rely on things "not me," I may well have to make the choice between bilge pump OR CO detector.
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There are times you want to button up, heavy weather, extreme cold, etc. At these times your ventilation is going to be necessarily limited
Why necessarily? Are not Dorades and similar 'waterproof' designs not adequate and seaworthy, even in heavy weather? If you button up THAT tightly for an extended period of time, do you not run the risk of asphyxiation?
Also, is it 'necessary' to always run a heating device? I've slept in a tent in -20, so I know from experience that there are other 'passive' tools (ie, non-CO producing) that can keep one warm when off-watch.
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and the CO detector can (could) act as a backup. Gas detectors in general can alert you to the fact that you have a potential problem with some system, like a slow propane leak. They do not replace good maintenance procedures, they act as a second line of defense. IMHO anyway.
You make several good points, and with them I cannot really offer counterpoint. It is up to each of us to find the trade-offs and compromises we want to make.
For me, and I speak for myself only, what you are describing is the beginning of a never ending cycle of over-outfitting. This discussion began with CO detectors, and now we are up to CO detectors, propane detectors (won't have propane on my boat, either, btw) and bilge pumps. The list of "must-haves" will always only grow, and this growth is, in part, fueled by the marine stores and punditry using our fear of getting hurt, sick or lost to sell us more stuff. All of this leads to more cost, more maintenance, and more reliance on gear.
The old square riggers, and their crews, while often uncomfortable, sailed in atrocious weather and sometimes in the high latitudes to boot. They did not have CO detectors. I don't mean this to suggest that we should wholesale disregard technology because "the old way was good enough," but I use that comparison as my 'baseline.' Did they do without a CO detector? Yep. Now, do I REALLY NEED one?
My theoretical, spiritually "ideal boat:"
No electricity, at all, period
No engine, at all.
Single fuel capable - all lamps, lights and cooking, etc - probably kerosene
No GPS, no radio
No Dedicated Liferaft
I'll never realize this ideal and I know it. First of all, I've made one compromise with my wife in that she won't go cruising on a boat with no engine. But as I said, that is my 'baseline" that is used to weigh the need of anything that is considered a "must-have."
In other words, the SailFar KISS principle.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on November 24, 2006, 01:24:47 AM
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 24, 2006, 12:03:21 AM
Isn't that kind of like saying a bilge pump makes me less stringent in maintaining my watertight integrity, so I will not have a bilge pump so I will not become lax with regard to my watertight integrity?
Yes, it's exactly like saying that. We all have choices to make about how far to push what lines we push in the decisions we make. I would be more inclined to "indulge" in a bilge pump than a CO detector. Given a finite amount of money with which to buy stuff and finite time and money to maintain it, and limited willingness to rely on things "not me," I may well have to make the choice between bilge pump OR CO detector.
Ok, I can understand the personal choice issue. I can also understand the financial argument. Doing a quick check on CO and explosive gas detectors and picking the most expensive ones I could find, puts the cost at around $400. Literally a fraction of what I've got invested in the boat. And that ignores the life threatening aspects of failure in one of these areas. Also consider that a little research and a visit to Radio Shack could very likely cut this cost by 80% and give you a fun little project for a few of those non-sailing evenings.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on November 24, 2006, 01:24:47 AM
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 24, 2006, 12:03:21 AMThere are times you want to button up, heavy weather, extreme cold, etc. At these times your ventilation is going to be necessarily limited
Why necessarily? Are not Dorades and similar 'waterproof' designs not adequate and seaworthy, even in heavy weather? If you button up THAT tightly for an extended period of time, do you not run the risk of asphyxiation?
Also, is it 'necessary' to always run a heating device? I've slept in a tent in -20, so I know from experience that there are other 'passive' tools (ie, non-CO producing) that can keep one warm when off-watch.
Yes necessarily. Unless you run around with your bilges open, there are areas in the boat that are not well ventilated even considering you have all the hatches and ports open. And these are the ares most likely to collect heavier than air gasses so even with the bilges open, the issue does not completely go away.
Is a heating device necessary? Well probably not. If you don't live aboard, or if you do and you don't mind freezing your rear end off for extended periods of time, ok. I too have been out in extreme cold. I've had the frozen facial hair look. It was fun, but there was always an end in sight. If you are going to do the weekend cruising thing, this kind of setup is entirely workable, I did it for years. Now that I'm moving onboard on a permanent basis, the parameters have changed.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on November 24, 2006, 01:24:47 AM
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 24, 2006, 12:03:21 AMand the CO detector can (could) act as a backup. Gas detectors in general can alert you to the fact that you have a potential problem with some system, like a slow propane leak. They do not replace good maintenance procedures, they act as a second line of defense. IMHO anyway.
You make several good points, and with them I cannot really offer counterpoint. It is up to each of us to find the trade-offs and compromises we want to make.
For me, and I speak for myself only, what you are describing is the beginning of a never ending cycle of over-outfitting. This discussion began with CO detectors, and now we are up to CO detectors, propane detectors (won't have propane on my boat, either, btw) and bilge pumps. The list of "must-haves" will always only grow, and this growth is, in part, fueled by the marine stores and punditry using our fear of getting hurt, sick or lost to sell us more stuff. All of this leads to more cost, more maintenance, and more reliance on gear.
The old square riggers, and their crews, while often uncomfortable, sailed in atrocious weather and sometimes in the high latitudes to boot. They did not have CO detectors. I don't mean this to suggest that we should wholesale disregard technology because "the old way was good enough," but I use that comparison as my 'baseline.' Did they do without a CO detector? Yep. Now, do I REALLY NEED one?
My theoretical, spiritually "ideal boat:"
No electricity, at all, period
No engine, at all.
Single fuel capable - all lamps, lights and cooking, etc - probably kerosene
No GPS, no radio
No Dedicated Liferaft
I'll never realize this ideal and I know it. First of all, I've made one compromise with my wife in that she won't go cruising on a boat with no engine. But as I said, that is my 'baseline" that is used to weigh the need of anything that is considered a "must-have."
In other words, the SailFar KISS principle.
I always get a kick out of it when someone points to the old ships as an example of roughing it. These things were, literally, the space shuttles of their day. They incorporated the best technology that the human race could produce at the time. Ships were always the leading edge of technology until flight became possible. Just look at the advances, hull design, steam, ironclads, timing systems, navigation, etc. Consider that the relative comfort level between a home and a ship, back in the day, is probably about the same as the difference between a modern home and a reasonably well equipped modern boat. Also keep in mind we are talking naval or merchant vessels here, not yachts. The comfort level for the owner and guests on a yacht was much better then it was for a common seaman, but people like, I suspect, most of us couldn't afford to buy a yacht back in those days, let alone pay for the crew necessary to sail it.
Until Capt. Slocum did his thing, there were no singlehanders. 50 people with scissors can replace one lawn mower (don't laugh, when I was in the Navy I saw something very similar actually occur) but what is ultimately less expensive? Unless sailing with a large crew is in your budget, these types of devices can give you a 24/365 extra set of eyes and ears at a fraction of the cost of a single crew member, and that's presuming the person is not a paid crew.
Your description of your perfect boat is very romantic, and yes, very appealing in the abstract, but, IMHO, when considered for extended periods, not quite so appealing. When you consider months or years of living with these options, cold weather, etc, I tend to think my inner romantic would be more satisfied curled up in relative comfort with a good book while the sea rocks me to sleep, secure in the knowledge that I have systems aboard that will alert me the moment some life threatening event occurs. Can I prepare for every such event? No, but I can prepare for some of the more common ones.
All that said, far be it from me to dictate to you or anyone else how to setup their boat. If you are comfortable with limited safety equipment, I'll fully support your right to do without it. Am I over equipped? Probably, maybe undoubtedly, but all this stuff is fun to play with (I'm a techie IRL) aside from providing capabilities I would not otherwise possess. Is it expensive? Yes, but I've got more into my canvas work than into the electronics (thanks to eBay and the gear for sale sections of forums like this).
FYI, Raytheon RL80C Radar (multifunction display), 4 GPS systems, electronic autopilot (all networked, hardwired), solar panel, two onboard computer systems, laptop and MicroATX box, wireless LAN. Still looking at CO and explosive gas detectors and either SSB or HAM radio with email capability (the radio thing will probably push the tech cost beyond the cost of the canvas work :( ).
Also, FYI, I enjoy a good debate, so if you want me to put a cork in it, just let me know. ;)
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 24, 2006, 11:57:59 AM
Am I over equipped?
I'd answer that "no." Would *I* feel overequipped with the YOUR stuff...perhaps. "Overequipped is a subjective term - well mostly. I think all of us on this site can agree that there ARE some truly overequipped boats out there.
Quote
Also, FYI, I enjoy a good debate, so if you want me to put a cork in it, just let me know. ;)
Not at all; this has been enlightening. I enjoy your points - they are far more well-thought than simply "get it, you need it, you'd be foolish not to have it." "It" being whatever - today a CO detector, tomorrow and EPIRB, etc.
To me, this has been a good discussion for this site, because I think this forum is a place to challenge the 'conventional wisdom' of what is really needed to go cruising and/or livaboard. I presented one extreme point of view (as a theoretical philosophy, a beginning framework) and you've given some good counterpoints that JUSTIFY certain items - at the very least for YOUR boat.
The whole point of the exercise, imo, is to draw attention to WHY we carry what we carry and be clear and honest with ourselves what the lines are and why we make these decisions. So, it becomes less important whether or not boat X has a CO detector than the process by which that decision was made.
It's what I love about this site - for the most part, simpler is viewed as better, but for those exceptions, they are well-thought-out exceptions.
LOL, I use to work for a guy like that. He'd come to lunch and throw out something to get everybody debating, then sit back and enjoy.
EPIRBs and dedicated life rafts bring up the question of what do you do if you've lost the boat, but that probably needs it's own thread. I'm more conflicted on this point. ;)
Hello all:
Regarding kerosene (or propane) cabin heaters.
Has anyone got a winter's worth of experience and been able to track CO output? Do we have any data?
What is the burn rate for kerosene and for propane?
My limited experience: Our old Alden Yawl had a wood stove that filled the boat with smoke but not with heat.
Years ago, I worked in a boat yard. The ofice was heated by a kero cabin heater that was poorly installed. It did an OK job heating, seemed to burn about a gallon or so a work day, and stunk up the place. I recall something about the heaters being most efficient if left running all the time. On/off was claimed to be inefficient.
We chartered a boat in the Pacific North West that had a propane heater. The charter company check out guy advised us against using it. I did not probe.
Thanks, Norman
Norm,
Your question regarding experience with kerosene or propane made me think it would be interesting to be able to data log CO build up over time in order to see which system produced the most gas. Again, it's a techie thing, the result from entirely too much time around computers. Unfortunately it seems any gas detector capable of doing so is in the > $1k range. I did find a source of detectors in the $60 range though (http://www.smokesign.com/codetectors.html). Another example of how the marine title on anything quadruples the price.
If no one can give you a definitive answer to your question, you might try getting one of these cheap detectors, installing it, then buttoning up and running your heater in order to determine if CO buildup ever becomes a problem and how long it takes for dangerous levels to occur. You could test the heater and cook stove individually, and when operating both at the same time. I for one would be really interested in your findings, and it might make a good article for Good Old Boat or Living Aboard Magazine.
Regarding burn rate, some limited research on my part seems to indicate the answer is it varies depending on the device you are using to burn the fuel. Interesting bunch of stuff popped up though, everything from burning kerosene on carpet to home made rocket engines (might have to go back and look at that one again, very interesting). Therefore, testing your individual systems would seem to be the best way to go for the individual application.
Quote from: Joe Pyrat on November 25, 2006, 12:01:44 PM
Your question regarding experience with kerosene or propane made me think it would be interesting to be able to data log CO build up over time in order to see which system produced the most gas. Again, it's a techie thing, the result from entirely too much time around computers. Unfortunately it seems any gas detector capable of doing so is in the > $1k range.
Could you use a simple, cheap, OTC CO detector, splice off the signal line going to the LCD and read that signal with a BASIC Stamp (http://www.parallax.com/)? There are cheaper solutions, but they are more complicated to set up than the STAMP (FPGA's of course, but then you need a PROM writer and to code in ASSEMBLY).
With the Stamp and a memory module, you could log one reading a minute for weeks - track dirunal trends, etc. Not bad for a device that costs about $60 US.
But, I'm thinking this has all been done; my fuzzy memory seems to contain a node indicating having read about this.
As for burn rates, CO production rates, etc, that is a VERY complicated question. O2 balance in the combustion reaction, flow rates into/out of the 'confined space,' etc are not easily modeled and picking 'average' values for them are frought with large error bars. As a rule of thumb, a yellow flame is producing a higher CO concentration than a blue one, and that depends on the rate of O2 delivery to the flame. Therefore, forced air burners would TEND to be 'safer.'
I would point out however, that we are in a way barking up the wrong tree. The REAL issue is O2 dilution. True, CO does have some toxic effects (O2 displacement in hemoglobin, for example), but does it really matter? From
IFSTA Fundamentals of Firefighting, 2nd Edition, a drop from normal O2 concentration (~21%) to 9% results in unconsciousness, and drop to 6% will result in death in a few minutes. A drop as small as to 17% O2 can lead to measurable physical impairment.
It does not matter if this reduction in O2 concentration results from burning up the O2 or increasing other gases in the air (adding CO or CO2). In perfect, O2 balanced combustion, you are both reducing O2 and adding CO2; in a O2 starved combustion, O2 is reduced and CO and CO2 are produced. So, in either case, both the O2 reduction and COx production lower the overall O2 percentage.
IMO, what you really need to test is O2 level. If you test for CO and you are combusting O2 balanced, you are producing CO2 and not much CO (if any, ideally). Would a low CO reading on the gauge thus imply a "safe" breathable environment? Not necessarily. On the other hand, a dropping O2 level will indicate SOMETHING is displacing the O2 and making the air unsafe. CO2 is "better" than CO, of course, but not really by all that much. Again, from the
IFSTA manual, a concentration of 10-12% of CO2 will cause death within a few minutes due to paralysis of the brain's respiratory center. Increased levels of CO2 also cause increased respiration rates, which increases the inhalation of ANY toxic gas in the inhaled air.
Finally, I'd be happy to help design these experiments. I have a BASIC Stamp and have written some programs for it and could share my experience with them as well. It WOULD be interesting to test different heating techniques on different boats under different conditions.
One thing that I've found works well in smaller spaces found on sailboats are the pressurized Aladdin-type kerosene lanterns. They provide quite a bit of heat and light. Also, because of the mantle setup, they are fairly low in CO emissions, relative to some other non-electric light/heat sources. A friend of mine has used two of them as the primary heat sources on her Cape Dory 25 when she was living aboard for two years.
The only real problem with them is that they produce a lot of light, so aren't good at night if you're trying to sleep. :D
Captain Smollett, it's been a while since I did any microprocessor programming, but I'd be interested in working on this. In fact, after looking at the site you linked to, I think it would be interesting to develop some kind kit or instruction set which sailors could use to build their own reasonably priced detector/monitor.
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it would be interesting to develop some kind kit
If you really want to keep the cost down (less important for one-off since the programming time does not get recouped), we should look into a PIC or FPGA. They are MUCH MUCH cheaper than BASIC Stamps - high initial cost in the PROM burner and engineering the code, but low cost to move en masse for volume). Certainly, the BASIC Stamp would be the way to go for initial testing - get some numbers quick to see the lay of the land. As I said, I have one around here somewhere - I'll see if I can find it
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instruction set which sailors could use to build their own reasonably priced detector/monitor.
This would be nearly trivial with a BASIC Stamp, once we work out the details. One could publish the code for download along with the instructions on how to connect the OTC detector to the unit.
Of course, if you think about it, why limit to just CO detector? The microcontrollers have multiple inputs, so one could conceivably tie into bilge pump circuits, battery charging circuits, etc and look at a 'history' of how much your pump has run, say while you are gone from the boat.
The experiment I've been contemplating is getting/building some 6 DOF accelerometers and measuring the motion of the boat in various seas. I have this half-baked threory that 'motion comfort' ratios neglect certain hull form parameters and would like to test it. Of course, something like this gives me a 'business excuse' to go sailing, which is the real underlying purpose...
:)
Try this link. Some one posted it on the Montgomery site...looks very well made and super compact http://www.scanmarineusa.com/Wallas_stove_800.pdf PS...sit down and put on a seat belt when getting a price...but it sure is a nice tidy unit !
Appreciate the seatbelt advisory cause I hate messing around with Adobe or their pdf format when I don't have to.
I have been considering this despite the cost. I am still enamored with the idea of only needing one fuel on board. The heater option is intriguing as well as, once I get there, the boat will be home.
TrT
Frank -
I didn't see a price, but - do you know if that is the same stove that they use on the C-dory line of small stinkpot cabin cruisers? Looks and sounds like it!
Yep...like C-dory's..it is close to $1500 with the heater function and a few options.OUCH...but nice and very good reviews...note..I never did 'shop it' on line.Price info was a poster on another site so could be lower if shopped.
Unless you have a fan to move air around, as a heater this burner is only going to help down to the 60's F, maybe mid 50's F.
It is important to put a heater as low as possible in the boat.
Keep an eye on ebay, I found a Fab-All diesel heater with flue pipe for $250. This is similar to the Dickinson Newport diesel heater. It was a little difficult to install (mostly difficult planning on where the flue would exit and how to locate the tank and fuel line). So far it has been used down to 50F and keeps the cabin plenty warm, even in a heavy wind. Unfortunately I cannot cook on this model, which would be nice to keep hot water or soup going.
If I were buying a new one I would consider a Dickinson Bristol cookstove and mount it on the floor, forward in the main cabin.
Yes, the Wallus has a 'stove cover' that has a blower in it. It is an interesting concept.
TrT
Well, the cabin heater project may be moved up on the priority list.
I was talking to a guy who lives aboard in NC, and he said something about not wanting to use a kerosene heater due to the odor and fumes. Now, I THINK he was talking about a regular unvented household heater (like from Lowes or somewhere) being used on the boat.
But in any case, it got me curious. Before I invest on either a kerosene or diesel cabin heater, I would like to hear from those that have them/use them - especially in a liveaboard situation if possible. I'm talking about ones like the Dickinson or Taylor that are vented through the deck.
I plan to mount mine on the stdb side main cabin bulkhead. I'm trying to figure out if the vent will get in the way of any sail handling or how it might effect moving around on deck.
If you have experience with either diesel or kerosene vented cabin heaters, here are some of my questions:
(1) Odors, fumes, residues inside?
(2) Vent get in the way up top? Lines get snagged, etc?
(3) Do you use it underway? If so, notice any performance issues (to the heater, not the boat!)
(4) Water ingress issues, say in a rollover? Are the vents 'sealable' for foul weather? (Obviously, I assume you cannot use the heater in this configuration).
(5) Fuel consumption? The area we would plan to use it would probably have lows in the low 30's (F), maybe the occasional night in the 20's. Let's say a comfortable cabin temperature would be upper 50's-lower 60's F; is that reasonable with one of these units with those outside temps?
(6) How much fresh air ventilation do you have? I think mine is currently too small. The boat has two vents aft, one in the head and one in the chain locker. None are very large. I worry about fresh air with all hatches closed; right now, I plan to add some ventilation to the in-port hatch boards.
(7) REALLY dumb question - are these heaters thermostated, or do you have to regulate by hand to keep the cabin at your "desired" temp?
Showing some ignorance here, but the only sailing I've done in cold weather has been day sailing or overnighting. Layers of clothing and/or sleeping bags did the trick.
Capn Smollet-
The soot from a diesel stove can do a number on your sails... so be aware of that.
If everything is sealed properly, the odors and fumes inside the cabin are not noticeable, and they don't really generate any residues inside the cabin.
The Charlie Noble can get snagged, so it is best to have a line guard around/over it.
Using them underway really depends on the installation. On one boat I've used them on, using it underway wasn't really feasible, since the heat from the exhaust stack and smoke would tend to really do a job on the main sail. On another boat, where the charlie noble was further aft, it was fine, since it wasn't directly under where the mainsail would normally be. Some of the heaters can handle up to 30˚ of heel, others can't.
Water ingress isn't much of an issue, but you would probably want to remove the top portion of the stack if going off-shore and put a deck plate in to the deck ring in its place. That's the only way I know of sealing it properly. I have the same setup for my solar ventilators on my boat currently. In terms of rain and spray, the charlie noble does a pretty good job of keeping that out of the system. It is really just the water washing over the deck or breaking over the deck that is the problem—but that usually doesn't occur in coastal waters—since you'd probably be hiding anchored in weather that bad if you're near the coast.
Ventilation is a problem, but many heaters are designed so you can plumb an air intake into the unit, and reduce the need for ventilation. However, you'll probably want more ventilation regardless, from your description of things. You'll probably want at least two vents in the main cabin. The solar powered Nicro vents are very good, and move quite a bit of air—I'd highly recommend them. You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.
Most of the ones I've seen are not thermostatically controlled...but do give you some control over the amount of heat generated by controlling the fuel flow rate—less fuel, less heat generated. :)
Fuel consumption is highly variable, since it depends on how cold it is outside, how much of the cabin your heating, how well insulated your boat is and how warm you have the interior. On one boat, the normal SOP was to close off the v-berth and not heat that area. The head was just aft of the v-berth and was a bit chilly at times, but not too bad. The overhead and cabin ceilings were insulated with fiberglass insulation, between wooden furring strips, and the paneling was over that. The fiberglass insulation had the mylar heat reflective film glued to it, to increase the insulation value without increasing the thickness required.
BTW, this boat was used as a liveaboard up in Portland, Maine, year round, so did experience some brutally cold temps. The head wasn't used year round, since it would probably have frozen in February and March.
The way the fuel was handled was the heater had a small (about two-or-three-gallon) gravity fed day tank, and a line from the main diesel tanks with originally a pump bulb like you'd find on an outboard motor—later replaced by a small electric fuel pump. There was a small fuel water separator filter in the line between the main tanks and the day tank for the heater. IIRC, the fuel tank was filled once a day or so. Given your requirements, I'd say you'd probably be burning about 1.5-2 gallons of diesel a day. :)
Be aware that many of these small heaters use a bit of electricity, since they use an electric fan to help assist in the airflow when in operation.
I hope that helps.
This is one I'm still trying to figure out.....I have an old (obsolete like me) Force 10 and I burn diesel in it. The burn element is basically a Premis camp stove element, so you have to heat the burner up with alcohol
before you turn on the diesel fuel as the diesel has to turn to gas before you lite it. The Charlie Nobel is only about an inch and a half and terminates with a breathing waterproof cap that is only about an inch or so above the cabin top. It does not interfere with anything, you can even walk on it but I try to stay off of it. I slide my hatch open slightly when I use it for air and to let some of the heat out. It can be used underway and it has no thermostat. Now, I also have a SeaSwing with a Primis burner in it that heats well enough that I'm thinking about taking the Force 10 out. I really don't anticipate ever being where I'll need again. TJim
Dan:
Thanks for the comments. A few points/clarifications.
Quote from: AdriftAtSea on June 27, 2008, 04:19:55 PM
I have the same setup for my solar ventilators on my boat currently.
Interesting. I wonder if those are similar to the solar hatch vent on my boat's f'ard hatch. I will rip that thing out before I do any serious offshore sailing. That 1/16" piece of flimsy plastic that slides over to cover the hole does not seem very strong to me.
Quote
The solar powered Nicro vents are very good, and move quite a bit of air
See above comment. Are these vents pretty much the same as the hatch vents?
Quote
You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.
Nah. When I get the ship's ventilation set up the way I want it, I won't need to fool with a CO detector.
Quote
probably be burning about 1.5-2 gallons of diesel a day.
Wow. The Taylor's I'm looking at is said to burn 1 gal per day at FULL burn. Given that it's over 8000 BTU, and there is NO way I'm putting 8000 BTU in such a small space for temps above freezing(*), I cannot imagine burning full tilt...at least not for very long.
Are their burn rate specs that far out of practice? That's why I want some actual numbers, not a spec or a guess.
Quote
Be aware that many of these small heaters use a bit of electricity, since they use an electric fan to help assist in the airflow when in operation.
Not the one I'm looking at. That's something to watch, though. I don't want my heater to use electric at all.
TJim:
Thanks for the info; that helps. Any comment on fuel consumption with your unit?
Care to keep me in mind if you decide to sell it?
(*) By my calculations, I should be able to maintain a comfortable temp in the living space for 3000-3500 BTU. An 8000 BTU unit gives me a TON of margin for error on that calculation, and that also assumes a goal of 70 degrees-quite a bit warmer than we require.
I can't give an accurate fuel use number for my Force 10. I've never used it full time, although I have used on weekends from like Friday evening thru Sunday evening for a couple weekends in a row. The fuel tank is about 4 gallons if I remember correctly and I've never ran out. In December and January on the GSL you just don't want to be up in the cold fumbing around filling a fuel tank so I make sure it's topped off if I plan on spending a weekend on the boat. I'm guessing it uses maybe a half gallon a day. Also, I think it's a 6000 btu and with the forward area curtain drawn, it'll run me out of my Triton salon. I'll know by the first of October whether it goes or stays. I may want to hang on to it in case I ever end up sailing on the GSL in winter again. I'm still home based in Salt Lake so that's a consideration.... TJim
Capn Smollet-
The Nicro solar-powered vents I have were the older style that use a stainless steel screw-in deck ring, not the cheaper plastic snap-in deck rings found on their lower end vents. They came with a nice chromed bronze deck plate that fits the ring and seals the opening as thoroughly as if the deck was never cut open. :)
I believe it is still made. Here is a photo of it:
(http://www.marinco.com/images/products/large/N20503S-CMYK-99.jpg)
IIRC, the part number is N20504BRSC, but you'd have to double check with the manufacturer.
Quote from: Captain Smollett on June 27, 2008, 07:17:20 PM
Quote
You'd want to have a CO detector installed in any case.
Nah. When I get the ship's ventilation set up the way I want it, I won't need to fool with a CO detector.
John,
I installed a CO detector onboard Faith. I have to say that I have been very suprised at how little it takes to get the CO levels to an unsafe level. I have had it go off WITH MY HATCH OPEN! (with little wind). This was a real eye opener for me, and I have to say that I would really recommend you re-think this.
Safety is one of those things everyone has a different view of, and we each have to make our own decisions... but FWIW I really think that the CO alarm is a good peice of gear to have onboard...
I have a Fab-All diesel heater from the 1970's, which is a predecessor to the Dickinson. I will write about the Fab-All but I believe it is the same as the Dickinson diesel heater sold today. Another good heater is the Refleks. I got mine off of ebay for $250. Someone in Florida decided they didn't need it anymore. Imagine that.
I have had the heater for a little over a year now on my 28 footer. I am a weekender, not a liveaboard on Lake Michigan. Because of the number of tourists that show up during the season, the nicest time at the marina is before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. I am usually one of the first to have the boat put in the water after the river ice runs out. This year I put the boat in during a blizzard and had 2" of snow on it between hoisting it in the water and motoring up the river to my dock. The lowest temps I have "survived" on an overnight were in the mid 20's F during a blizzard and I would have liked more heat, but it was comfortable with blankets on the lap sitting next to the heater while reading. It works fantastic in the 50's and 60's, very comfortable and dry air, no clammy wetness. Actually I don't use it above 60F because that is warm enough for me.
I do not smell the Fab-All outside when it is running. It runs very clean with no smoke. The stack on the outside is warm but not hot. There are no odors inside. I have had no leaks. I light the stove by putting a shot of alcohol in the stove, light it with a long lighter, shut the door and wait 5 minutes before turning on the diesel. Actually I use kerosene bought at the gas station, not diesel. I do not think there are very big differences in how it runs on diesel vs. kerosene. To adjust the heat you turn a knob which adjusts the flame height, there is no thermostat. Usually a low flame works fine. The mechanics of the fuel metering system are simple, it is basically a carburetor float and a needle valve that adjusts the flow rate. I have not tried it underway but I believe it will work with no problem, that is what it is designed to do. It might be better to run it at low settings underway. If the waves are really rough, then the heater probably should be shut off. I avoid this type of sailing. The type of burner is a pot burner, which is essentially a can with a tube at the bottom that lets fuel in the bottom of the pot. The heat of the pot "boils" the fuel into a vapor and it rises and burns above the pot. There is some type of metal thing in the pot that is supposed to absorb the heat from the flame and transfer it down to the fuel at the bottom.
The Fab-All has a fitting on the bottom to allow for an intake air vent. I have two 3" stainless steel "stacks", one is hot exhaust and one is cold air intake. This means two holes cut through the deck. The one issue that I have read about is in high wind situations the stove can backdraft smokey soot into the cabin IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN INTAKE STACK. So I would recommend an intake stack. I have used it in high winds, it is a little harder to start but once burning it will stay hot and burning with no problem in high winds. I started it by putting a square of toilet paper in with the alcohol when it was windy, that solved the wind problem of blowing out the priming alcohol. Yes, both of my stacks are openings in the deck which could allow water in if capsized. I have not tried to plug them but you could probably get a plumbing fitting to plug them. I could remove the outside parts of the stacks when sailing and use something else to cover the stack base, but I have not tried this yet. With the intake stack I do not have a lot of worries about ventilation, in fact I try to limit ventilation to just the hatchboard vent and a vent in the bow to minimize cold air coming in.
I installed the heater, cutting holes in the deck by drawing the circle and drilling out small holes all the way around, then using a jigsaw to cut through the deck. I filed it to smooth it out and then saturated it in epoxy a few times. The heater itself is an easy mount to the bulkhead. The tank and fuel plumbing is a little more complicated but its just a matter of getting the right fittings, which usually takes several trips to the hardware store for me for any plumbing job. I used high quality rubber fuel line.
The heater should be mounted as low in the boat as possible, it should be right near the floor with just enough room for a drip pan underneath. There is a stratification of air inside the boat, so that anything above the burner is warm, and anything below is cool. If you wear warm slippers or felt boot liners it is comfortable. It would be very nice if you could sit next to the heater in your favorite spot. You can sit with your legs a few inches away, its not hot like a woodburner. When it gets really cold I shut the door to the head/V-berth and just heat the cabin. It handled low temps in the upper 20F range although it was clear that the boat could be better insulated. I currently have no additional insulation. Temps of over 40F outside mean the cabin will be very comfortable. Usually I run it at about 1/3 of the way, just enough heat to keep the flame burning clean. If it is really cold, you will want to turn it up all the way which is a pretty big flame. It is very quiet, there is just a slight rushing of air, a quiet roaring sound which is louder when it is windy.
I like the heater a lot and would consider putting one in my house, it seems very safe and no maintenance. The heater makes the boat comfortable from 40F on up, and below that it is not uncomfortable but just a little cool. With insulation in the cabin, it probably would be comfortable down to 20F.
Thanks, Paul. That's some really helpful stuff.
How high do your stacks sit above deck?
To all who have responded to the thread:
Would it be at all possible to get a photo or two of your deck, showing the stacks in relation to say the mast? (I'm assuming the installation has the stack coming out the cabin top).
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/1.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/2.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/3.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/4.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/5.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/6.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/7.jpg)
(http://cruisenews.net/tanzer/heater/8.jpg)
Awesome! Thanks.
Grog to you, good sir.
I just got back from the coast and would be glad to send pictures of my Force 10 and Charlie Noble
installation, also SeaSwing, if I could just email them. I can't figure out how to post a picture here.
And at my age, I'm not sure I want to know. It seems like every time I go to the trouble of learning
something new on these boards someone just changes it anyway. At my age I got better things to
do than learn things that don't last, but I did get some nice pictures while in SFran for the Plastic
Classic. My Sirena was the oldest boat there but definitely not the fastest, or maybe that could have
been a crew problem.. Whatever, we had a ball... TJim
tjim-
e-mail them to me via my blog, and i'll post 'em for ya.
skylark-
Nice camera work. Where is your fuel tank?
The tank is a 4" pvc pipe with two end caps holding about 2-1/2 gallons. The end caps have tapped (threaded) holes drilled in them for hose barbs. I fill the tank with a siphon connection using a connector of the type used on an outboard gas tank. I have a 5 gallon "gas" tank painted blue which is used for kerosene. The pvc pipe tank fits under the dodger.
Something I neglected to mention in the last post on this...
There was one of the small Coleman catalytic heaters that was with the equipment onboard the boat when we bought her. It seemed like a good short term heat source since it is made for enclosed spaces (even though the instructions probably say otherwise, it is marketed for use in tents).
The couple times we used it before the detector was installed, we noticed that it did not do much to heat the cabin, but that it seemed like there was no air to breathe after it had been on for a few minutes. After the detector was installed, we learned the CO levels became too high almost immediately after the thing was lit and could only be made safe if both the foredeck hatch and the companionway hatch were wide open... not very helpful when you are trying to warm the cabin.... ::)
Bottom line, I do not recommend this piece of gear for use on a boat.
Quote from: s/v Faith on July 25, 2008, 02:30:24 AM
Something I neglected to mention in the last post on this...
There was one of the small Coleman catalytic heaters that was with the equipment onboard the boat when we bought her. It seemed like a good short term heat source since it is made for enclosed spaces (even though the instructions probably say otherwise, it is marketed for use in tents).
The couple times we used it before the detector was installed, we noticed that it did not do much to heat the cabin, but that it seemed like there was no air to breathe after it had been on for a few minutes. After the detector was installed, we learned the CO levels became too high almost immediately after the thing was lit and could only be made safe if both the foredeck hatch and the companionway hatch were wide open... not very helpful when you are trying to warm the cabin.... ::)
Bottom line, I do not recommend this piece of gear for use on a boat.
Really, REALLY interesting. I have used one of these on my boat on occasion. It slowly heated the boat to a reasonable temperature. I believe the version with the blower fan works much more efficiently (here (http://www.sailingislife.com/id32.html) is one sailors review).
I was concerned about CO as well, so picked up a Kidde household detector that gives a digital readout ... and it never indicated anything. Outside of smelling a bit funny for the first twenty minutes or so, I didn't notice any ill effects.
Questions to be answered:
1. is my Coleman Catalytic Heater working better than yours? Could yours have been damaged somehow?
2. is my CO detector not doing its' job?
3. could, uh, well... that's all I can think of at the moment.
Quote from: skylark on July 23, 2008, 10:07:12 PM
I have a 5 gallon "gas" tank painted blue which is used for kerosene.
When I read this I thought "uh oh - blue is for water." A little searching and it became clear that to the extent there is any standard for fuels, blue is indeed for kerosene. Given the de facto standard among cruisers for blue water jugs, I'm going to paint "WATER" labels on mine and get a small blue can (labeled "KERO") to refill my new kerosene tank.
Learn something new every day.
Quote from: s/v godot on July 25, 2008, 08:01:54 AM
......Questions to be answered:
1. is my Coleman Catalytic Heater working better than yours? Could yours have been damaged somehow?
2. is my CO detector not doing its' job?
3. could, uh, well... that's all I can think of at the moment.
Good point (questions) Adam. Reading this post, I seem to remember using the heater once when we first had the boat and not having experienced the problem. It seems like a pretty simple peice of gear (just a valve, a metering jet, and some batting (fiberglass?) inside a metal bowl with a grill.... but there is some corrosion on the grill... maybe something is causing it to 'run rich'?
An interesting study here (http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA05/os/CO03.pdf).
Quote
The following is a summary of CPSC staff's findings on the testing of the catalytic heater:
- The peak CO concentration ranged from 68 ppm to 125 ppm and the steady state CO concentration ranged from 67 ppm to 109 ppm. Assuming a limited exposure time of up to 6.5 hours at these CO concentrations, the catalytic heater does not appear to pose a serious CO hazard to healthy adults when the CO concentration is considered by itself.
- When the catalytic heater was operated in a closed room (ACH ~ 0), the oxygen was depleted from an ambient concentration of 20.9 percent to 8.8 percent. Because the catalytic heater can deplete the O2 concentration to such low levels, the heater poses a serious risk of hypoxia. The degree of hypoxia is further exacerbated by the moderate CO concentration and by an increase in the carbon dioxide concentration that accompanied the depletion of oxygen.
- As the oxygen decreased in the chamber, the catalytic heater became less effective at converting the propane and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water vapor. This was reflected by an increase in the hydrocarbon concentration in the chamber, which ranged from 1,050 ppm to 13,440 ppm (5 to 64 percent of the lower explosion limit of propane in air). The unreacted propane further increases the degree of hypoxia.
I only skimmed through the report (I'm at work); but the big danger seems to be from running out of oxygen not carbon monoxide (although CO poisoning is not completely eliminated as a hazard). There is combustion, so common sense dictates that a vent needs to be open. I wouldn't think you would need to have both hatches opened wide, though.
The good news is that you will probably notice if the O
2 gets thin, even if sleeping (personally, I don't think I'd run the heater after lights out). And once you get into fresh air you will probably take a few deep breaths and recover quickly. CO poisoning is a much nastier prospect.
Untill I find a heater I like I am going to try to get by with a Honda 2000, and a electric heater. I am sure once I get out there I will find something I like
If you're going with an electric heater, I'd highly recommend the big oil-filled radiator style heaters, as they probably have the lowest risk of fire.
Craig -
I've used the catalytic Colemans a good bit onboard. I do have a CO2 monitor, & it has never gone off. Late this winter, it's battery died, and literally within a day or two I used the catalytic heater, and something was 'different'. I regret that I didn't have good batteries in the detector; I do think it might have gone off that night.
Normally, the catalytic heater is odorless and quiet. That night it was hissing a bit, and had some smell, both of which I noticed, and so was on the watch for problems. After an hour or so, I had a slight headache and some dizziness, so I shut it off. For some reason, I don't think it lit properly or fully, and that made it not work as it should have. All the other times I've used it, there have been no problems or 'symptoms' like that. Hypoxia or too much CO2, I don't know, durnit...
I have noticed that initially at least, they do not light fully, it takes a couple of minutes. The catalytic converter screen has platinum threads in it I think, and until they all come up to temp, I don't think it operates at full efficiency, and thus some fuel escapes unburnt, and it may well be putting out some CO2.
This is not scientific, and is a good bit of guesswork on my part. Overall, my experience with them has been good.
That said, the best heater with regards to fuel costs and efficiency seems to be a good sleeping bag, and the best strategy, and the one I intend to personally pursue, is to go to where good ol' Ma Nature provides the heat, and I can stow the sleeping bag away... ;D
CapnK-
QuoteI had a slight headache and some dizziness,
These are common symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Quote from: AdriftAtSeaThese are common symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Yeah, and I am wary of that, so when I had a suspicion that the heater was not working as it has every other time I've used it, I 'monitored' myself, and once I noticed those symptoms, shut it off.
Found this on the Flicka 20 site. Came with great reviews.Small,light and easy on fuel.Fairly cheap too. Arigo 1500 http://www.swego.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=33&idproduct=70
Main problems with heaters like this are: 1) they create a lot of moisture inside the boat, since the exhaust isn't vented externally; 2) there is always a risk of CO poisoning.
true... A guy could spend a grand + installed for proper furnaces with a proper venting chimney cut through the cabin top.In the pacific north west that makes perfect sence.I figured for $130 this was a nice lil heater that was portable, efficient,multiple owner recommended,used achohol not use propane=safer,less condensation and no gas settling in the bilge. Figured it would be great to take the chill out on a cool morning......with the hatch open slightly. ;D Guess I should have been more specific as to the intent of my sharing of this neat little find.
LOL... yeah, for that it would probably be fine... :)
Good subject. Laura and I are looking at various heaters for exactly that- to take the chill off the cabin at night, and first thing in the mornings. We would never consider sleeping with one running.
We've found that our kerosene stove heats the cabin quite nicely, in conjunction with the oil lamp if it's a tad cooler. But for COLD mornings, something more would be appreciated. I've looked at a couple of propane heaters ( catalytic ones) but most are just plain too large- Tehani is a little boat after all ;D Plus, that means carrying propane.
I've seen good comments on the Coleman Black Cat, but again, that means propane aboard, which we don't carry currently. We use kerosene to cook with. Alcohol is horribly expensive to burn for heat, plus that's one more fuel to carry and store, so where do we go? Flower pot?
Quote from: Frank on November 30, 2008, 10:11:19 PM
Figured it would be great to take the chill out on a cool morning......with the hatch open slightly. ;D Guess I should have been more specific as to the intent of my sharing of this neat little find.
But wouldn't a shot of single malt do that also. ;) ;D And a lot safer ::) ::) ::)
I find that with my SeaSwing just putting a pot of coffee on warms the cabin up to a comfort level from down around high forties to mid fifties.. And the diesel fuel I burn in it is already onboard... Plus diesel puts out more heat than alcohol, kerosene or propane. I haven't fired the Force 10 off at all since I left the Great Salt Lake a year and a half or so ago.... I like it fine!!!! Boat's waiting for me in SDiego and I will be going south prior to the 15th .... TJim
Frank - I had one of those heaters. If you haven't bought it yet, then wait. You can make one a *lot* cheaper, for only a few bucks, following the general design of this commercial model, to figure out if it is something you want to buy...
The heater element is just an aluminum container stuffed with fiberglass, the 'glass being held in place by a metal screen of perhaps 1/8" square mesh over a hole in its middle. The element is perhaps 8-10" diameter, with a 3-4" hole in the middle through which you fill it with fuel, and where the flame is once lit. The purpose of the 'glass is to keep the liquid fuel from being able to slosh. The larger aluminum pieces then fit around the element, perhaps serving a radiant/diffusing purpose, but also keeping you from hitting the flame.
You could burn an open bowl of fuel and get the same amount of heating, but it would be better to use a material to stop any possible sloshing. An even better way would be to copy one of the "KISS stoves (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&fkt=2966&fsdt=5423&q=kiss+stoves&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=)" in a larger format and see how it works for you. They are designed so that they actually create a little pressure when burning, making the fuel burn hotter. One caveat: I did one time (out of several hundred uses) have a KISS stove blow up on me. It scattered burning alcohol all over when that happened. Luckily, I was dinghying up a river at the time (;D), so I just threw the stove overboard, and patted out the places on myself and gear where the alcohol was burning. Might be smart to keep the extinguisher handy when using one of those aboard.
I have a Webasto Air-Top for serious winter liveaboard heat. It's great.
I also have a Weems & Plath paraffin lamp in the main salon that does a surprisingly good job of keeping the chill off in the evening. I also have a couple of small table-top lamps in my cabin that warm it up back there pretty nicely. Once the temps get down below freezing the Webasto becomes pretty important. <grin>
I was on the boat yesterday, 32F outside, blizzard. The Fab-All diesel heater brought the inside temperatures up to 55F at belly height. This is with no insulation. Head and shoulders are warm, feet are cold. I hung in the hammock and napped for a few hours. For cold weather, good insulating footwear is important. I think a Fab-All or Dickinson type diesel heater is probably adequate to about 40F for liveaboard comfort on a small boat. Below that you either have to insulate heavily or you need a better heater.
One thing you can do rather than install a heater is to heat up water in a pressure cooker, then put it down on the floor by your feet. Maybe wrap it in a towel so you don't burn yourself. Water holds heat a long time. A blanket wrapped around you and the hot water helps a lot too. Hot water bottle type heat is a lot easier than installing a real heater.
My boat is getting hauled today :( . The rest of the marina is getting iced up, ice is getting too close now.
7 weeks without drying out in Texas - splash slips to end of November. Had planned to sail way south by now - Going to need a Heater of some type. Don't wish to cut holes in the deckhouse - but that would be the last choice --- what would be the practical options? Any units that allow the "burn" on deck and get dry heat below?
jim
Polecat,
Not sure what size boat you have. We have a Nor'Sea 27 that has a wood inside (good insulation). We have a fireplace that we can use as a heater, but it did require a hole in the deck house.
HOWEVERE, we found that with us inside, the added heat of a good oil lam was sufficient to keep us cozy! So, one we burn the coal out of our fireplace, I put the oil lamp in and use it to keep the boat just right, even with snow on the dock.
Just an idea...
Greg
(http://www.norseayachts.com/goodoldboat/NSeaP6d.jpg)
Greg,
That heater just looks like it would make a good book and chilly day something to savor.
I hate the cold, but have never gotten around to installing the Shipmate Kerosene heater onboard Faith. :P
Hope to never really feel the need to get around to it. ;D
Jim,
I went ahead and merged your thread into an earlier discussion, hope you find an answer that will work for you.
Another thread you might want to take a look at is;
Kerosene stove and cabin heater (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=961.0)
On edit; a couple more things...
QuoteAny units that allow the "burn" on deck and get dry heat below?
Man, that would be a nice thing. If you figure out a way to do it that would be the heater to have.
Maybe a propane burner with a heat exchanger... that pipes hot water into a radiator (could use an automotive heater core....) Would be a nice system, but probably not worth the effort for the short term use you are looking at.
I can say that the Coleman catalytic propane heater is no longer in use aboard Faith. I stopped using it when I get my CO sensor. There was no way I could run it below decks without the alarm going off. Even with the hatches wide open the numbers did not work for me.
Get a 2000W gen and run a 1500 electric watt heater.
The only other way is to get a heater that needs outside air to heat and a heating element with a fan on it and an outside vent. The O2 usage is far to risky on a small boat.
I have a setup like Link states, other than sounding like a jet engine (which it really is) and upsetting the neighbors it works well. I plan on going to a hydronic setup eventually, I just feel that you can't be too careful with heating the interior of a boat.
has anyone used a petromax/britelyt kerosene lanter for cabin heat?
http://www.britelyt.com/prod1.htm
quote: "BriteLyt lanterns can be used as a heating unit only.
Use with or without mantle.
(500CP Lantern output in BTU's approx: 9,500 to 11,000 per hour Lantern, without heating adapter will heat a 20' x 20' area) with our
heating unit only. Lantern, with heating adapter, will heat a 20' x 20' area - output of 9,500 to approx. 20,500 btu's per hour."
there is also a gimbled mount you can purchase and attach to a bulkhead.
looks like one would cost around $200 with the heater unit.
That looks pretty interesting...my worry would be providing adequate ventilation.
Interesting product. My solution is to just head further south. ;D Looked real pretty in the ad, and ventilation is a concern. Would that much heat be safe near a bulkhead?
Ventilation is a concern with virtually any heater on a small boat, we leave one of the port lights open currently and use lava rocks on a veggie grill tray on the propane stove (a different take on the clay flower pot). We also have a carbon monoxide detector in the salon, and have had it go off once. Also our companionway hatches do not seal very well so there is air flow from that, so far in light use it has not been a big problem for us. We will see.
How much ventilation would a 4" nicro solar vent add?
ChattCat, we were supposed to be out Oct 1st, but got delayed....so I am leaving from Watts Bar tomorrow, Nov 1st and going down the river to mobile. Its going to be 36 tonight. While not horrible.....it makes me think I want a nice heater setup while I get further south!!! ;D
As far as heat near the bulkhead, I don't know about it radiating all the way around but many of the bulkhead heaters I've seen are 9k btu.....I think there is a shield that britelyt has that would shield one side of the lamp.
I'd love to hear from someone who has experience with one.
Quote from: JWalker on October 31, 2011, 06:30:03 PM
Ventilation is a concern with virtually any heater on a small boat
The positive ventilation heaters are nice in this regard, but require two holes (one for intake and one for the chimney) in the deck.
The CO alarm is a big plus, but just one point: it won't warn you of O2 depletion (the other big danger of inadequate ventilation). A flame hot enough to put out 9000 BTU is burning O2 quickly enough...
All the Taylors and Dickinson kerosene and diesel bulkhead heaters have (or at least recommend) using a heat shield. Some of them are in the 15,000 BTU range, iirc.
I have a Taylors Diesel heater that was installed about 20 years ago and is probably at least a 40 year old heater. Not sure how much service it saw before ending up in my boat, but I don't expect it sat on a shelf all those years. I tried to fire it up for the first time this year and unfortunately the mag valve had failed and started leaking. Fortunately, a replacement is still available. Everything else seems to be in good working order, but I'll have to confirm once I replace the mag valve. These Taylors have a reputation for lasting forever and judging by the the condition mine is still in (despite the one failed part,) I doubt I'll need to replace it (though I do plan on stocking up on spares for extended cruising as losing heat in the upper latitudes is not high on my list and parts can take a while to get.) Also, the PO exclusively burnt kero in this heater, so they seem to be multi-fuel capable even if not advertised as such (theoretically, this one could have been converted, but I doubt it.)
My charlie noble is installed on the port side just forward of the mast, at the cabin edge. I have once or twice got the staysail sheet caught on it when the staysail boom was flailing around and had to go forward to remove it, but other than that the location seems very sensible and is rarely in the way. Taking the charlie noble off the pipe and capping it would probably have prevented any catching and also served to block any water ingress in a knockdown. The heater itself is mounted to the bulkhead with a fuel line feeding down the opposite side of the bulkhead, across the bilge, and up to a hand pump pressurized tank beside the head. Fuel flow can be cut off by closing the valve at the heater, at a shut-off valve in the bilge, or by releasing the tank cap and depressurizing the system. With the failed mag valve, I appreciated the shut-off valve as an extra way to cut off fuel flow, even though it was not needed in this circumstance as I unscrewed the tank cap instead. The Taylors manuals are well written and fairly straightforward.
I've included some pics that show my install (note that the charlie noble has a canvas cover on in some of the pics.)
https://picasaweb.google.com/sarscolin/TaylorCabinHeaterCharlieNoble
What is a mag valve?
A mag valve is a very simple and cool little valve, that is a special kind of solenoid, I guess. Basically, the mag valve is in the fuel line, has a button on it and connects to a thermocouple in the heater itself. As you preheat the heater with methylated spirits (aka denatured alcohol), the thermocouple starts to convert some of the heat into electricity. Once the heater is preheated, you hold down the button on the mag valve for a little bit too open the main fuel flow and the trickle of electricity from the thermocouple will hold the mag valve open after you release the button as long as it is still hot and burning in the heater. If the flame becomes extinguished, the temperature will drop causing the thermocouple to produce less electricity and the mag valve to shut, thereby preventing an extinguished heater from filling up with or spilling very much fuel.
Sounds like a good piece of safety equipment.
Where did you get a replacement?
Strangely enough, St Brendan's Isle mail forwarding service is a (the?) US rep for Taylors. You can order parts, etc. through them. Call and talk to Scott, he seems like a great guy. I'm heavily considering using their mail service to support my nomadic lifestyle when I set off.
Quote from: skylark on November 05, 2011, 11:26:04 AM
Sounds like a good piece of safety equipment.
I'm pretty sure that that or something very similar is on most of the propane/natural gas equipment I've seen (home and boat). I thought it was "standard" these days....
I have a kerosene heater, Wallas 1300. was allready installed in my new boat. It has a good reputaion in Sweden, reliable and cheap. with good capabillity.
I checked it up yesterday... poha. expensive 1200USD :o got a minor chock.
Those wallas heaters look really nice.
I e-mailed britelyt and they said that the 500cp is to much for a boat cabin, and that they recommend the 150cp for heating a sailboat, but that they are out of stock till some time in december.
a little more internet research turned up a company in chattanooga called mill and mine that had imported a very similar (or identical depending on which internet fight you want to read) 150cp all brass lantern...they are selling them out for $35.
We docked in chattanooga and I rode my bike over to mill and mine and got one with some extra mantles and an extra globe.
I'm pretty happy with it! We have been leaving the lower hatch board out while running it, but we have been very comfortable with it, and it has cut the condensation inside the boat way down. Nice light also!
We have used it for three days, I'll update when we have used it more.
Quote from: JWalker on November 06, 2011, 04:27:53 PM
We have been leaving the lower hatch board out while running it, but we have been very comfortable with it
How cold has it been that you've been running with the hatch board out?
We have week-long stretches here in winter where we run low to mid teens at night and don't get above low to mid 20's during the day...and often accompanied by a 20-30 knot wind.
I cannot imagine leaving the hatch board out.
For milder conditions, though, sounds hard to beat a $35 dollar heater. Looking forward to hearing more about it (fuel consumption rate would be good to hear).
Here is a "KISS" heater which is simply a heat exchanger and a computer cooling fan placed on top of the boatstove and connected to a simple chimney. Simple enough for DIY.
http://www.pan2000.se/english/index.html (http://www.pan2000.se/english/index.html)
That pan2000 is interesting.
the coldest it was so far was 38, winds not over 10.
will be 32 the end of this week, we are now in alabama.
last night we tried it with just one portlight open (6x9) and didnt notice any lack of o2.
we also added a kerosene additive that is supposed to make it burn cleaner....and did take away what little kero smell there was.
We have not been burning while sleeping....just evenings to warm the cabin.
Over 35 years ago I stopped using kerosene in my stoves. Kerosene today is not nearly as highly refined as it once was. Used to be water clear- now it's a yellowish color. Tends to foul burners, soot up pots and smell.
I switched to 100% mineral spirits in my stoves and lamps. Not nearly as much soot- pots stay
Much cleaner, and no smell. That's all I ever use aboard Tehani.
Oh- and often it's cheaper.
here's my heater installed
(http://i44.tinypic.com/10r8xhi.jpg)
update on the petromax cp150
I did some internet research, and the gubment recommends one square inch of ventilation for each 1K btu for an unvented kero heater. The lantern is supposed to burn somewhere between 8-12k btu....so I figured 12 square inches.
the top of our companion way is over 30 inches....so a 1/2" gap would give me 15" of vent....
I made a clear vinyl companionway cover for rainy days, and we have been using that...the top leans inward for venting while allowing rain to not drip in the cabin, and the bottom is loose and can be pushed out. we have been using the top
for venting and felt like it was fine. It has more than 1/2" of venting.
we have been using it for about two weeks.....(we stayed with my grandmother for a week)
I have just now burned a gallon of kero....well....I just refilled the gallon container....before we went I willed an 8 ounce bottle I've been using to fill the lantern with, and filled the lantern with another 8 oz.....and there was a little bit left in the container. We then headed to ace hardware in Florence AL and got a gallon.
I checked the price of low odor mineral spirits, and it was 13.99, the kerosene was 5ish for a gallon.
We have been burning it for three to four hours a day, its getting dark around 4:30 and we have been going to bed around 9. Even when it has not been that cold I have been running it because it REALLY helps dry the boat out! And also I really like the light it gives.....really nice cheery light, which is a nice contrast to our LEDs.
Last night was by far the coldest we have had, it was 27. At 9:00 when we were heading to bed the cabin temp was 63.
I'm sure that it wasnt 27 at 9, but it was cold enough. This morning I woke up and lit the lantern, the first time in the am.
it was 43 in the cabin when I woke up, and within an hour it was 58, also the boat had condensated quite a bit over night, and that was drying out by the time we pulled up anchor.
So to sum up....I'm very happy with the lantern.....
with that said.....the globes are poop. I'm on my fourth one, all have heat cracked...the brytelyt globes are pyrex which will take the heat, I will be replacing mine.
It is something that takes learning how to use....its a bit fiddly to get going. You have to preheat the burner so it will vaporize the kero, this is easy because they built in a blowtorch. but you have to blowtorch 45 to 60 seconds, and that takes some pumping.
Somehow I manages to smash a jet needle. I have no idea how this happened....but I took it apart and figured out what was wrong, and since they include a second jet, needle wrench, jet poker thingy, rubber seal, and two other things I'm not sure what they do......it was a snap to unscrew the one needle and put the replacement in. But now I think I need to have another needle on hand.
the gimble would be great, as would the side reflector.
So in conclusion, I do not think that this will be the end all heater for everyone....but I am very happy with it....the cost was very low, the operating cost is low, and the light is wonderfully bright, and the head is sufficient. We have not been chased out of the cabin, but we havent been cold either.
but I'm still drooling over that wallas! ;D
Are the mantles holding up?
the mantles have been holding up....the globes not so much....I have replaced two mantles due to bumping them while replacing the globe.
We have spent two days with 2 foot chop on the nose which were pretty rough plowing through under motor and the mantles were fine.
yesterday the wind clocked over to s/se and we sailed on a beam reach all the way down lake wilson to the lock.....much more comfortable
the britelyt people (american petromax dealerish long story) is in new port ritchey FL, and they have pyrex globes, if I break another I think I'll order one of the frosted globes for general delivery to a marina on our route....if I don't I think I may try to stop in there on our way down. They also have gimbles.
Brytelyt says they are going to be making a heater attachment this coming year, which will boost the heat output to 14k btu.
Open question to those in the know: Is it safe to run a vented bulkhead kero/diesel heater all night while you sleep?
Yes, they are designed to run 24 hours a day all winter.
I think I saw something like this somewhere, maybe on sailfar, but now I can't find it. Anyway--- if it works, the credit goes to someone else.
It turned cool today and I was kicking around the barn looking for something to do and I came across an old Coleman lantern stuck away on a shelf. I also found an old aluminum tea kettle in the recycle bin. I cut the bottom out of the kettle, drilled a small bolt hole in the center of the top of it and mounted it to the top of the lantern. I had to buy the 1 1/2 inch flex exhaust hose from Autozone ($6.95) and it fit perfectly over the tea kettle spout. It only took a few minutes for it to get to operating temperature and put out enough heat to bring Puff's cabin temperature up several degrees. The kettle and exhaust hose radiates quite a bit of heat, and the exhaust gasses exit pretty well through the roof vent. I'll be looking for a better way to vent the exhaust gasses, since the roof vent has a plastic floating disk, and the exhaust gets pretty warm. Perhaps I can mount the heater on a platform just aft of the chain locker and vent through the old anchor chain deck fitting that is no longer being used. Any feedback or insightful comments would be much appreciated.
i was thinking about doing the same thing.....venting the lantern.
grog for trying it before i did and validating my idea!
the only problem i have is the same i have with a bulkhead heater......
where do i put it?
Some years ago I came across a guy heating with a woodstove... only instead of a stovepipe exhaust, his stovepipe ran into a large steel drum, and exited the other side again as stovepipe and on out... the steel drum had another pipe welded in so the whole drum resembled an elongated donut. The contraption caused a lot of heat transfer: he was heating a large workshop (would hold 4 cars plus tools, racks etc.) easily with a small woodstove.
I don't know if anyone could/would want to adapt something along that line to a small cabin heater, but it's just a thought that seemed worth sharing. Maybe a small muffler could be adapted for the job?
My immediate thought about Snapdragons post (apart from "Well done!") was that if you keep the lantern where it is and draw a long exaust hose along the roof and out through the mentioned anchor chain deck fitting you will use much more of the generated heat. A long chimney (coiled perhaps) or one fitted with some sort of heat exchanger is very effective. Perhaps one can use an old radiator of some sort. You just need to keep a good draught through it.
Was re-reading the thread from the beginning, and ran across Jack tar's suggestion to search for diesel truck heaters. Did that, and this was one of the first I ran across, Espar Airtronic heaters. Look like they might be very similar to the Wallas.
Here's the smallest unit, the D2, at eBay, current bidding is around $925. Stats: 19cfm, .026 gal/hr, .6 amps. Sounds economical - except for the price - but boat heaters seem to be expensive.
Maybe because most of us are warm-weather wimps...? ;)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ESPAR-AIRTRONIC-D2-12-VOLT-DIESEL-FIRED-HEATER-COMPLETE-INSTALL-KIT-/290642058040?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&vxp=mtr&hash=item43ab9ddb38
(I'll attach a screenshot for posterity.)
Recently I have been looking for a cabin heater. I am planning a trip up the East Coast this spring/summer and anticipate morning chill that the oil lamps may not be able to defeat. After experiencing the usual sticker shock (one I was looking at uses your diesel from tanks and doubles as a cooktop) I began figuring how to get a ck that size past the Admiral. Last week I was in Lowe's and saw a small camping propane heater that uses Coleman bottled or 20 lb tanks. Says safe for indoor use. Tried it night before last on boat as aft cabin heat w o/s temps high 30s. Friggin thing is amazing!The top and back of unit stayed cool to the touch. No sign of headache. Kept small cabin bearable w only the pilot light burning! Turned it on low for a few min before exiting sleeping bag and cabin was toasty! Anyone had more experience with these? I am thinking of getting another for the forward cabin. They cost aound $70 I think it was. Beat the poop out of the prices I was looking at before. Mr. Heater 9000 BTU . My propane tanks are stored on deck in open so seemed like a perfect solution. Unbelievable amt of heat on low and high settings. Thought this might benefit someone else looking for good heat for a small boat. ;D
Quote from: Bonzai on March 06, 2013, 09:39:44 AM
No sign of headache.
And you won't if carbon dioxide levels get too high.
Not trying to be alarmist, or "that guy," but safe for indoor use in a home is a very different thing than safe for use in a small boat cabin. Does it say 'safe for use in a closed up walk-in closet?'
As for carbon monoxide, I think Craig posted some CO numbers he measured on his Ariel from an open flame heater a while back, and noticed that a VERY LARGE amount of ventilation was needed.
At least here's the link where he mentioned it (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,762.msg17419.html#msg17419) (and some other good info in that thread).
Quote
I am thinking of getting another for the forward cabin.
I'd be very surprised if you need a separate one for the fore cabin.
We used a single 5000 BTU cabin heater to heat the cabin on the Alberg 30. We had numerous nights in the teens. Occasionally, we closed off the fore cabin and just let it work on the main cabin.
There were many nights in the 20's that it was not on "high." Mostly it had to do with the water temperature I think. Earlier in the season, 25 deg air temp was no problem (the water was still "warm"). Later in the season, 25 took more heater to keep the boat warm.
But even with that, we had a two week stretch where it did not get above freezing. One small, 5000 BTU heater did the trick. Of course, I should point out we dressed for winter conditions, too. ;) Layers, you know the drill.
But, we heated three winters with a single 5000 BTU heater, supplemented only by cooking at normal meal times with the galley stove and heating water for dishes, etc.
Thanks Cap. Going to need 2 if heating both cabins as they are separated. Ventilation is no problem as have plenty portlights. I can absolutely see 5000 BTU being plenty, the low setting on this 9000 BTU heater is a lot of heat. It would almost demand partly opening at least a couple portlights even if on low setting. I do not plan on much cold weather cruising. Also have CO1 detectors. I hear they are bad for forming moisture if used in unventilated areas. For my envisioned very limited use I am going to try it. Will post any problems I encounter, assuming I survive them.... ;D
Quote from: Bonzai on March 06, 2013, 12:48:31 PM
Thanks Cap. Going to need 2 if heating both cabins as they are separated.
More separated than the two cabins on an Alberg 30? The A-30 has the head one one side and a hanging locker on the other side between the two cabins. There are several feet of "room" between the two cabins.
We usually put the heater in that spot...on the sole 'between' the two cabins. We moved it into the main cabin during the day sometimes, but typically just barely.
Get two if you want...more to store, more 'hassle,' etc, but purely from a heating standpoint, one 9000 BTU unit should be more than plenty even for two cabins. At least my experience with heating two cabins suggests it should be.
We owned a second heater; we bought two thinking we might need it. It has never been taken out of the box.
Edit: I looked back and saw in some of your old posts that you are on a 35 footer. If so, okay...one single heater may not be enough. Sorry. For some reason, I thought you were on a mid-20's "small boat." ;)
Yes Cap...separate as in no way connected. On the early SY35s like mine the aft cabin has entry at rear of center-cockpit. The engine room takes up amidships entirely from gunnel to gunnel. I agree that 9000 BTU is more than enuff for both but will have to install ductwork to make it happen. Gonna look into the smaller units. Keep this one and maybe another bigger for house emergency heat. I see they have a 4000 BTU version....plenty for my use on boat. http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=41&id=116
I've used the Coleman Cat heaters a number of times on the boat, and more recently in the van. Similar to the Mr. Buddy unit, they use a catalytic burner of some sort to burn 99%+ of the fuel and output basically 0% CO. As I understand, they do use up available oxygen, and thus produce some CO2.
While I don't advocate running them in a closed-up space with no ventilation, I have fallen asleep with them on a few times to no ill effect*. So while it is not at all a "best practice" to use them in such a manner, I do think it is a better solution for the reason that more likely than not, it *won't* kill you if working properly and "sleep happens".
Others burners, working properly, *will* definitely kill you. It's a thin line, but the catalytics at least help you stay on the right side. :) I've read that the Mr. Buddy's have a built-in CO2 shut off - if true, that's nice... so long as it works when needed. ;)
I try to use the Cats for a warm-up before sleep and then again when climbing out of the sack in the AM. They do emit some IR, so pointing them at you makes it feel warmer than otherwise.
I have both the Sport and Black Cat (older) versions; the Black Cat is about 2X the size/output of the Sport, for prolly 1/2 the time on the same amount of fuel. Because the biggun' uses so much more fuel, I shut it off after initial warming and use the small one to maintain warmth over time.
*This may well be debatable... ;D
Find a fat girl or a large dog.
the girl could cook but the dog wont talk back.
Quote from: sharkbait on April 30, 2013, 06:43:57 PM
Find a fat girl or a large dog.
the girl could cook but the dog wont talk back.
:D :D :D
I just found this thread, and I have only one comment (other than laughing about fat girls and large dogs). Those little portable propane catalytic heaters, like the "Mr. Heater" are illegal here in Massachusetts. You cannot even have one shipped here. Maybe it's nanny-state-ism, but maybe it's because they can be dangerous, I don't know.
However, I use a Origo alcohol heater when I need to warm up the cabin. Using it means keeping the hatches open a crack, and alcohol is expensive to burn full time. But I was able to buy this heating unit here in the nanny-state ... and I even used it to keep one room in my dry-land house warm during a prolonged power outage.
--Joe
After using my Mr. Heater for 3 wks straight I have noticed zero problems. Yes Oldrig I would say that is def nanny-ism...lol....are toothpicks illegal there too? ;D.....They CAN be dangerous also in the hands of a complete blithering idiot....u could put an eye out ffs ::).... I do keep my snorkel vents open when using heater so have good air exchange.
Suppose I could have a friend from RI or NH order one and sneak it over the line ... ;D
Quote from: Chattcatdaddy on October 31, 2011, 05:11:43 PM
Interesting product. My solution is to just head further south. ;D Looked real pretty in the ad, and ventilation is a concern. Would that much heat be safe near a bulkhead?
Best solution so far! ;D
I have been using a "Mr. Heater, Buddy (http://www.mrheater.com/ProductFamily.aspx?catid=41)" unit aboard s/v Emerald Tide for 2 winters now. I did install a CO alarm before using it, and it has never gone off.
In my earlier post, I had a very different experience aboard Faith;
Quote from: s/v Faith on July 25, 2008, 02:30:24 AM
Something I neglected to mention in the last post on this...
There was one of the small Coleman catalytic heaters that was with the equipment onboard the boat when we bought her. It seemed like a good short term heat source since it is made for enclosed spaces (even though the instructions probably say otherwise, it is marketed for use in tents).
The couple times we used it before the detector was installed, we noticed that it did not do much to heat the cabin, but that it seemed like there was no air to breathe after it had been on for a few minutes. After the detector was installed, we learned the CO levels became too high almost immediately after the thing was lit and could only be made safe if both the foredeck hatch and the companionway hatch were wide open... not very helpful when you are trying to warm the cabin.... ::)
Bottom line, I do not recommend this piece of gear for use on a boat.
There are a couple differences, mainly that Emerald Tide has at least twice the interior volume as Faith has, but ore significantly I think the newer generation of heaters just work better. My old Coleman had a metal matrix, the Mr. Heater unit (http://www.mrheater.com/ProductFamily.aspx?catid=41) has a fiberglass batting matrix. You could feel your eyes burn and the air was hard to breath with the Coleman unit.
Just an update, but I agree with CapnK s later comments in this thread that the newer generation of propane heaters are a viable option for the Small Boat Sailor (but I still prefer ChatCatDaddys suggestion above, and that is what I have done once again.). :)