I have several project upcoming since I will be out of work shortly. I took a look in my enigine compartment, the other day when using up my sick days :-)
I want to rewire this mess you can see in the pix. Any suggestions?
Starter wire, coil, misc...
Marine grade, at least 1 size up, put a loop in the middle, leave uncut until terminated and SUPPORT, SUPPORT, SUPPORT. When finished, it should look like art.
Seal up terminals well.
Along with Lynx advise I would say "keep it simple" as possible. Draw up a good circuit diagram beforehand and label you wires beforehand also. I am going to start my rewire of my Ariel this week also and will document it on the Ariel site, and maybe a link from this thread.
Tim
Diagramming it and planning it is a very good idea. It might also be a good idea to mock up the cable runs to see how long they actually are, so you can figure out whether the wiring needs to be a heavier gauge or not...
Zen,
Why not pay a pro a gazillion bucks to do it right the first time ;D ;D ;D? The frustration level would be nil and you could profess ignorance if somebody else asked you to help them do it ::). Well... that's what I'd do :-*.
Fair winds,
Pappy (LOL) Jack
I wouldn't recommend getting someone else to do it... unless you're 100% sure that they'll do the job properly. Doing it yourself, will in the long run, have far less frustration and give you a much better understanding of how the thing is setup... and then when you're in the middle of nowhere and something breaks, your chance of fixing it goes way, way, way up.
PS... I'm pretty sure Pappyjack is being a wiseass and playing devils advocate. :)
That looks like a sloppy wiring job. Before you start tearing it out with plans to redo it, see how much can be salvaged. As long as there are no burn marks on the wire, and the wire size is sufficient, try putting up wire supports to organize the wires which are long enough to be routed in a decent way.
Check to make sure all the positive wires have fuses, except the starter.
Get a roll of red and a roll of black wire. Replace one wire at a time, completing the connection before moving to the next wire.
A good quality crimping tool is handy. All I used for years was a cheap tool that was not adjustable, now I have a tool that U can adjust-I really like it, not necessary but nice. I prefer to use non-insulated terminals with heat shrink (adhesive lined). I was not able to buy this locally had to order thru internet along with marine grade wire. I could have ordered wire locally thru a commercial dist. however they would only order 500' rolls--I ended up ordering thru "Bestboat wire"--dont be shocked when you see current prices for copper. I to believe in "oversizing" tends to be more forgiving as installation ages. I wonder if the current slowdown (economic) will bring prices down. I am currently working on a project at a college installing RPZ's and flood valves on the domestic water service to the Bldgs. Wholesale price for 3"type" L" copper tubing $25 dollars a foot.--when will it end!!!!
Your runs are so short that the additional cost of oversize wiring is not much. The major problem is that if/when you get any problems at the terminals the oversize wiring will take it longer than the more correct voltage drop/amp size.
The beauty of small boats is that up'ing to the next size is not that much more expensive.
Re: crimping:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination
Good guide.
CapnK-
That's Ron's site... he's a very good egg and has very good information on his site.. He sails a Canadian Seacraft 36T IIRC. He recently did a test of the strength of a properly crimped connection... in one photo he has 95 lbs. of anchors hanging off of a crimped butt spliced piece of 14 AWG wire. :)
Quote from: Mr. Fixit link=topic=1517.msg14957#msg14957 date=
Wholesale price for 3"type" L" copper tubing $25 dollars a foot.--when will it end!!!!
:o
Good site , good information about crimping that will come in handy. I did notice that in the photo he said the tool is bad to use with insulated clip becuase it damages it. The wrong section was being used 8)
:D
Hmmmm, well how about donating that money to my refitting fund ;D
Quote from: Pappy Jack on March 06, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
Zen,
Why not pay a pro a gazillion bucks to do it right the first time ;D ;D ;D? The frustration level would be nil and you could profess ignorance if somebody else asked you to help them do it ::). Well... that's what I'd do :-*.
Fair winds,
Pappy (LOL) Jack
Sounds like you are saying use one size for everything ? ???
Quote from: skylark on March 06, 2008, 11:03:25 PM
That looks like a sloppy wiring job. Before you start tearing it out with plans to redo it, see how much can be salvaged. As long as there are no burn marks on the wire, and the wire size is sufficient, try putting up wire supports to organize the wires which are long enough to be routed in a decent way.
Check to make sure all the positive wires have fuses, except the starter.
Get a roll of red and a roll of black wire. Replace one wire at a time, completing the connection before moving to the next wire.
No, no. But a rull reel of wire is cheeper than 1/2 a reel per foot. IF you need 500 feet of runs then it would be cheeper to use larger wire up to # 12 or # 10 for all of your runs than to try to do small runs or smaller different sizes of wire. You would also not be able to up the amprage when you add something extra. You can also resell the rest.
Always use marine grade, tin coated.
ah sooo, got it! ;D
BTW, ABYC standards recommend that you support the wire every 18" at a minimum...
Quote from: Zen on March 07, 2008, 12:17:30 PM
Sounds like you are saying use one size for everything ? ???
I didn't remember the ABYC standards so I didn't want to say when I posted that. The minimum wire gauge required for each circuit depends on the load in amps and the distance of wire in the circuit. I think I did most of the runs in my boat with 12 gauge but I'm not sure about that, you should check the ABYC chart. There will be heavier gauge wire between the battery and the fusebox. Probably the VHF needs heavier gauge wire too.
Look at the chart at the bottom of this page:
http://www.acbsphl.org/Tips_and_hints/ABYC_Wiring.htm
I wish they would not fool around with the circular mil calculation but rather just give a constant for each wire gauge. But that is the way it is usually calculated.
The left column shows the wire gauge, and the right two columns show how many amps that wire size can carry. The engine room thing is about heat, wire is not rated for as much amps when it is hot, or better said it fails earlier when hot. Double the actual amps that you will be running on the circuit, and get the wire gauge to meet that ampacity, and you should be OK.
You probably can get by with 14 or 16 gauge for circuits with lights and other low amp loads.
A few points from the ABYC E-11 specifications on electrical wiring.
"Conductors shall be at least 16 AWG. EXCEPTIONS: 1. 18 AWG conductors may be used if included with other conductors in a sheath and do not extend more than 30 inches (760mm) outside the sheath." 11.16.1.1.2."
"Conductors used for panelboard or switchboard main feeders, bilge blowers, electronic equipment, navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop must be kept to a minimum, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed three percent".
"Conductors used for lighting, other than navigation lights, and other circuits where voltage drop is not critical, shall be sized for a voltage drop not to exceed 10 percent."
"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3." 11.16.3.8."
"Current-carrying conductors shall be routed as high as practicable above the bilge water level and other areas where water may accumulate. If conductors must be routed in the bilge or other areas where water may accumulate, the connections shall be watertight."11.16.4.1.6."
"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types." 11.16.3.4."
"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used." 11.16.3.6."
"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud." 11.16.4.1.12."
"The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of: 11.16.1.2.2.1. UL 1426, Cables for Boats..."11.16.1.2.2."
"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit."11.16.3.7."
BTW, these were posted by Ron, of the Maine Sailing link above, on another forum. :)
:o
Hmmmmmmmmm,
After reading ...most...of all that. Having a professional doing it does not sound so expensive ;D
I think there is a little marine elitism going on with the mainecruising link.
I used a crimping tool like this:
(http://laudeman.com/bugimages/tool01.jpg)
This is a quality tool and it works fine. You should be able to find one under $20.
You can get good results using el cheapo crimpers but you have to be very careful how you place the terminal into the crimper, and then you may have slide the crimper down and crimp it a second time.
I think he has a good point about quality terminals. They make crimping easier and will last much longer.
One thing you can do to prevent corrosion is to spray a little dielectric grease in the terminal before putting the wire in and crimping it.
I do not see any voltage drop calculations or long term derateing. Any runs of amps more than 10 amps and longer than 7 feet, let us know and we can help you.
It is not really that hard with short runs. You need to learn it anyway.
Anybody recommend any good marine electrical wiring books?
(just to let you know, the formals have been worked out from what did not work and not from theory. The EXPERTS just want you to think that they know it all when in fact there is much mystery still about electricity)
Lynx—
The top two I'd recommend are:
- Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual, which is basically six books in one.
- Nigel Calder's Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual.
Skylark—
I'd recommend against the cheap crimpers. It is a lot harder to get consistently good quality crimps out of the cheap tools. If you look at the photos that are on the Mainesailing (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wire_termination) site, you'd see a definite qualitative difference in the quality of the crimped connections. The ones done with a good ratcheting crimper are cold-welded, the ones done with a cheap crimper are not. A good ratcheting crimp tool will last years...
From the maine sailing site... ratcheting crimp tool crimp on left, cheap crimp tool crimp on right—definitely a visible difference.
(http://k43.pbase.com/g1/84/622984/2/93423142.8SjWegdt.jpg)
Get high quality heat-shrink or insulated crimp fittings and the wiring will last a lot longer. FMZ or Ancor are two good brands.
(http://thump01.pbase.com/g1/84/622984/3/93311917.bT0x0reK.jpg)
Well the one on the left doesn't appear to have any metal around it, so I would say the crimp on the right is the better crimp.
There is a difference between functional and pretty.
Cool!
ok recap so far:
The TAO of boat wiring
1. Strong roots nourish tall trees
(Invest in good crimping tools ) ( do not use pliers )
2. It is better to error in caution
(Use a couple of steps up on the rating on the wire.)
3. All things have a purpose, even if unseen
(Use marine class wire and terminals. )( no left over house stuff )
4. From one grows one thousand
(Use supports at intervals of 11" min. ) ( 11 or 18 hmm need to look that up)
8)
-------all to go on my flea market(s) shopping list
Skylark-
The one on the left looks like one piece because the copper crimp fitting is basically cold-welded to the copper wire in it. Air and water can't get into the crimp itself, since it's now effectively a single solid piece. If you look very closely at the photo, you'll notice a thin border around the outer 20% or so, most noticeable in the lower left edge of the crimped wire, which is what was the crimp fitting.
Quote from: skylark on March 07, 2008, 10:19:05 PM
Well the one on the left doesn't appear to have any metal around it, so I would say the crimp on the right is the better crimp.
There is a difference between functional and pretty.
Zen-
Use the 3% voltage drop table to figure out what size wire is required, and then go up one wire size. If it says 10 AWG, go with 8 AWG... this is basically cheap insurance...since the wire will be unlikely to be the weak link in an shorted wire situation, increasing the chance for the breaker to trip properly before igniting.
Adrift,
You're correct ;). I was being a wise ass AND the Devil's advocate but rest assured that I'm taking notes on this subject 'cause I think that I'll be doing a rewiring job on my boat in the near future and I'll need all the help I can get :'(
Fair winds,
Pappy Jack
Quote from: Zen on March 07, 2008, 10:20:26 PM
Cool!
ok recap so far:
The TAO of boat wiring
1. Strong roots nourish tall trees
(Invest in good crimping tools ) ( do not use pliers )
2. It is better to error in caution
(Use a couple of steps up on the rating on the wire.)
3. All things have a purpose, even if unseen
(Use marine class wire and terminals. )( no left over house stuff )
4. From one grows one thousand
(Use supports at intervals of 11" min. ) ( 11 or 18 hmm need to look that up)
Very cool. Grog for that.
I am replacing the ShorePower outlet on my boat. The old one, the original is a two prong connection. The new is Three. I can see the Hot wire and the ground that will be easy to just switch since it is already there. A no brainer I guess. The question is where to run the Neutral wire? I read do not connect the ground and the neutral together at the same place. So where does it go?
BTW
Happy Easter!
The neutral wire normally goes to a breaker on the main AC panel, which usually has two 30 Amp breakers ganged. One is for the "hot" line and connects to the other breakers, the other is the Neutral and goes to a bus bar or terminal strip, which the neutral wires of the AC circuits all connect to.
I'll post a diagram in a bit to clarify it.
Here's the diagram, I hope it helps. :)
(http://www.adriftatsea.com/files/mainACpanel.png)
The main Shorepower AC panel on my boat has two buss strips or bars on it for the ground and neutral lines to connect to. I have a secondary AC panel on the boat that is for the Inverter's AC output. It only has a single breaker for the feed breaker.
Thanks Dan, I see. That is helpful I will compare it to what I have. Seems like I will need to change panels and rewire as well.
Not really, Just connect the neutral to the ground. or you could just make a ground buss. Easy, a lot of new panels these come loose. No need to buy a new panel just yet unless the old one is trash.
The intent of a neutral wire is to tie the housings of electrical appliances to the neutral. If something goes wrong in the appliance, and the hot shorts out to the housing, the neutral will short it out and blow a fuse, cutting off the power to the appliance and saving the user from touching a hot housing.
A neutral wire is tied to the ground wire at the shoreside main* circuit breaker. There should be no connection between ground and neutral except at the circuit breaker. This is to prevent the neutral from ever carrying current except in a fault situation.
*added later for clarity
Don't tie the Neutral and Ground lines together. Use separate busses for the Ground and Neutral lines.
From the ABYC standards:
QuoteA grounded neutral system is required. The neutral for AC power sources shall be grounded only at the following points:
The shore power neutral is grounded through the shore power cable and shall not be grounded on board the boat.
The secondary neutral of an isolation transformer or polarization transformer shall be grounded at the secondary of an isolation or polarization transformer.
The generator neutral shall be grounded at the generator.
The inverter output neutral shall be grounded at the inverter. The inverter output neutral shall be disconnected from ground when the inverter is operating in the charger or the feed-through mode(s).
When more than one shore power inlet is used, the shore power neutrals shall not be connected together on board the boat.
And makes the following exception:
QuoteFor systems using an isolation transformer or polarization transformer, both the generator or inverter neutral and the transformer secondary neutrals may be grounded at the AC main grounding bus instead of at the generator, inverter, or transformer secondary.
The Ground and Neutral Buss bars don't have to be on the AC breaker panel itself AFAIK, it just happens that the new panel I got for the Shorepower setup on my boat has them setup that way. I'm recycling the old panel for the main
Inverter AC panel.
Quote from: Zen on March 23, 2008, 01:56:01 PM
Thanks Dan, I see. That is helpful I will compare it to what I have. Seems like I will need to change panels and rewire as well.
Ok just returned form the boat. Mine has no breakers, just a connection for the two wires, then another connection leads off of that for the boat system. Almost like If you ran an extention cord to a two prong connection and plugged in another cord. They did not know that much about grounding I guess back in the mid 60's.
This may turn into a big rewiring project.
What are you trying to do with 110V?
What people are saying is correct with the separate buss however both are connected to the same panel with metal screws. If your demands are not much and most of what you have does not have a ground then it should be OK to have a new separate ground buss in the panel. There is usually an exception on this in most codes that say to put in a mew ground buss.
Zen—
Sailor's Solutions (http://www.sailorssolutions.com/) has a good small AC main panel that should work for you. It has five breakers on it... four effective, since the top two are ganged for the AC input and one handles the neutral, one the hot line. The two of the other breakers are 15A, and the third is user choice of 15A or 30A.
(http://www.sailorssolutions.com/ProductImages/ACP01_1.jpg)
It's the same one I'm using for the Shorepower AC panel on my boat.
Perfect Thanks!!!
Zen-
Glad to help. That AC Panel is pretty much perfect for the smaller boats we have, which won't have HDTV, Stereo, Microwave Oven, etc. on them, like bigger boats will. It is also a fairly compact panel, and the breakers are compatible with the standard BlueSea breakers. The one thing that is missing is a circuit live indicator LED for each of the three branch circuits, but you can order them from BlueSea if you want them.
:o
what no HDTV, Stereo, Microwave Oven, HOT TUB, etc.
that was next on my list !!! >:(
;D
Zen-
You put all that stuff in the boat... you'll be stuck in the cockpit all the time... :)
My boat has the Tardis option ;D
I think the Captain of your boat is the "Tard"-is option. :) :p
who... ;D
I am just completing the rewiring of "Che" and have posted about it on the Ariel site.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1120&page=8
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4801&stc=1&d=1206849545)
ooooh nice work!
Much better. I would recommend as much support as you can get and as close as you can get. A lot of wiring failures on boats is where the wires attached due to movement of the wires.
Quote from: Lynx on March 30, 2008, 06:46:54 AM
Much better. I would recommend as much support as you can get and as close as you can get. A lot of wiring failures on boats is where the wires attached due to movement of the wires.
Yes, once I complete a couple more circuits, everything will get sealed and strapped.
Something I learned doing this one, having never used ATC type fuses is that they only go down to 5amp, requiring in-line for the more delicate electronic items.
Tim -
Very nice! Grog!