So I'm in a bit of a muddle, and keep going back and forth as to what to do.
Thought I'd throw it out here and hear some ideas, and maybe get good advice or recognize bad advice, or something.
I own a very dilapidated Bristol 24 (shallow bilge, iron bits keel) that needs a lot of major items (cushions, pushpit rail, battery, wiring, outboard, etc.) as well as some serious bottom work to get her afloat. You can see where I'm going here.
For the cost of half of what it takes to get this thing going, I am in position to pick up a pretty decent Bristol 27 at an almost steal price, and be ready to play this summer. Most of the numbers (Sail Area, SA/Displacement, etc.) are very similar for the two boats. Obviously the 27 is an Alberg design, and is a bit bigger, has the deeper bilge/lead keel, outboard in well, and has had the quarter berth vut for a second cockpit lazerette.
The added bonus is the B27 has an enclosed head. Not an issue for me, but it seems a very nice lady has come into my life, and it certainly is an issue for her. And I'd really like to make certain she has a good experience on the water (landlubber - as if I'm not!) so I'm concerned about her being comfortable with the boat.
So I'm torn between a boat already owned outright, but needing at least a year's work to bring her back to life vs. a boat that I'll need to buy (stretching me a bit thin) but may suit my needs more than well enough and is pretty much ready to go with only the normal springtime maintenance processes.
Does anyone have any thoughts? Is the B27 a better boat? Worse? I've read comments stating that the B27 is more tender than the B24. My concern about my B24 is it being a very early model, I'm not even sure anyone can be certain the keel contents are stable, and weigh what they're supposed to anyway.
Can I 'hear' everyone's thoughts about this (without causing a major disturbance in the force)?
Life is short, buy the other boat and sail away !
Though I think they are both nice looking boats, the added space in the 27 will be more comfortable for cruising especially if there are two of you.
(http://bristolowners.org/24/b24draw.jpg)
(http://bristolowners.org/27/B27draw.jpg)
It's really hard to describe how torn I am on this... with the 27, I could be sailing this summer. I could also be flat broke.
However, I could just as easily go flat broke trying to fix up the 24, and still not be ready to sail.
???
The thing is, I spent about 2 hours, going over the 27, including a good long while of "quiet time" just sitting down below, getting a sense of how things were. It's not going to be a great place to host parties of 12, but it's cozy.
General condition of the 27 is pretty okay for its age. It used to have an inboard, which was removed (replaced w/outboard), and the thru-hull glassed over (that merits checking & double-checking).
I have to say I like the lines of the 27 a little better. The 24 looks like the same boat with the tail clipped a bit, and the nose squashed back a little. I'm really leaning towards getting it and just going with it (the 27). In which case, anyone know anyone looking for a 24 project boat? For very cheap?
Quote from: tomwatt on April 18, 2010, 10:02:42 AM
It's really hard to describe how torn I am on this... with the 27, I could be sailing this summer. I could also be flat broke.
However, I could just as easily go flat broke trying to fix up the 24, and still not be ready to sail.
???
I think you have your answer there, you are going to be broke either way, might as well be sailing ;)
Actually I see having inboard removed and thru hull glassed over as pluses for the 27, how is the outboard mounted?
I don't see a diliema. I think you're feeling like you're betraying your old boat and have a little Catholic guilt. Someone out there will love a project and give her a good home. Upgrade to the 27.
Go for broke! (Easy for me to say ... I already own a boat and don't have a steady job.)
I'm familiar with both boats, and the 27--especially if it's ready to splash--is capable of much more than the 24. See if you can find somebody looking for a project boat, because the 24 is also a very nice little boat.
When I was looking for my present boat (an Alberg-designed Cape Dory 25D), I seriously considered a Bristol 27. It was in better condition, and had way more room. The main reasons I chose the Cape Dory were the lesser draft (by 6 inches) and the inboard diesel.
But the 27 is a fine vessel.
Go for it, man.
Best of luck, whichever choice you make.
--Joe
Definitely the 27! Nice boats all around. There's a big difference between a 24 footer and 27 footer just in the way they move... plus the lead vs iron ballast.. Might as well sail.
I'm not sure the 24 has standing headroom, but the 27 has it and I can speak to no end about a lady's willingness to enter a cabin that she has to crouch into vs one that she can step down into and get about normally. My wife wouldn't set foot below in a Commander but was fine down below in an Ariel. It's such a small difference, but just having that added space overhead is a huge psychological difference. If the 24 has standing headroom... then I'm just wasting bandwidth though :)
I'm real close to saying yes on this... actually sent the guy a note indicating I'm a probable yes, just still working the numbers. It's a Documented Vessel, although the doc has lapsed and current owner did not keep it up. I seem to recall there's a procedure for this, but I'll have to dig it up again. But I do want to go ahead and setup the documentation again.
How could you guys tell I'm Catholic? :)
My b24 has standing headroom if you're about 5'7", otherwise it's "boat-neck-itis". But then lots of things about this particular b24 (which still has the blue Sailstar electrical faceplate on it) are a little peculiar. I agree it is a great project boat... otherwise I'd not have bitten in the first place.
Using the magic of my graphics software, I overlaid the two line drawings and scaled them to compare the differences. The b24 is definitely a fatter boat with an upturned bow, by comparison the b27 is much sleeker and even a little lower overall profile.
With the exception of the head and hanging locker, the interior space is almost the same (area wise). Oddly, the forward berths on the b24 have more headroom, as the deck sweeps upward there. The b27 is a bit of a squeeze by comparison.
Man, I think I'm switching boats in the middle of a stream. Still, this seems right. Now if I can just get my numbers to look right, I'll be in a wet boat!
Hi Tom, I concur with the others.
The B27 has displacement/length (D/L) ratio of 380 which is considered heavy, whereas the B24 has a D/L ratio of 446, which is excessive.
The B27 has almost 2 feet more LWL length, and the LOA difference gives you a larger platform for your sailplan.
These are quite significant differences in specs and the B24 is considered fairly slow, even for a heavy cruising design.
The B27's bridge deck is an important feature, especially if you plan to do any offshore work. The B27's enclosed head is another plus (as you mention), as is the wet locker opposite it
From what I have heard and seen, the B27's hull is considerably stronger than the B24. The B24 displacement less its ballast is 2920 lbs, whereas the B27 is 4025 (again, quite a difference). The B24 may have to use more ballast to compensate for the lower density of the cast iron vs lead, and this additional volume probably creates more wetted area as well. If you are cruising, I think that the already overly heavy B24 would not be able to carry the extra weight (of gear, provisions, etc.) nearly as well as the B27.
Good luck with your plans.
Jim
Thanks Jim. I appreciate your insights. As it is, I'm a mathematical disaster... if it weren't for software to keep track of things, I wouldn't be able to balance my checkbook! I do kind of struggle with what all the numbers tell me. I could see the sail areas being very close, and mast height... couldn't work the disp/lwl, etc. understandings out in my brain at all.
Because this hull is another dinette model, the bridge deck is still not much of an improvement over the b24's... it's lower down than the full cockpit versions I see pictured around. Still, since I was looking at a fix for that anyway, I think I'm going to be okay... will make a nice locker inset to hold extra water or whatnot.
I'm still not sure this is a go-ahead... have some issues with titling, etc. Seems the current owner did not receive any of the USCG documentation to go with the vessel, so while it is marked and shown as a documented vessel by ID inside the hull, he has none of that... title search, etc. I'll give the appropriate documenting office a call tomorrow and see what we have to do to bring that forward.
Tom, Glad to be able to help.
Now... at the risk of turning this into a Tri-lemma for you...and I don't know what area you are in...but have you seen this listing for a Cape Dory 27 w/ diesel for $3500 obo in Eastham, Cape Cod, MA? Sounds like a bit of a project, but a very nice design in the same range as the B27. Might be worth checking out.
http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/1667758439.html
Maybe Dan or Joe is already familiar with it, since it's in their region?
Here's the CD Assoc specs page for the CD27...
http://www.capedory.org/specs/cd27.htm
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 18, 2010, 04:27:22 PM
Tom, Glad to be able to help.
Now... at the risk of turning this into a Tri-lemma for you...and I don't know what area you are in...but have you seen this listing for a Cape Dory 27 w/ diesel for $3500 obo in Eastham, Cape Cod, MA? Sounds like a bit of a project, but a very nice design in the same range as the B27. Might be worth checking out.
http://capecod.craigslist.org/boa/1667758439.html
Maybe Dan or Joe is already familiar with it, since it's in their region?
Hadn't seen that... any of you guys in the area south of Boston familiar with that boat/circumstances? I am familiar with the CD27 build. It's a nice boat.
I am having concerns about the titling for the b27 I was looking at... it may all clear up, or it may be a mess, can't say yet.
And I will admit to having a serious itch to get out on the water.
Most of the B27s I've seen are the cruising version with the settee berths, and the cabin trunk seems nicely proportioned, and they have the bridge deck.
I have to say that the B27 dinette version cabin trunk seems less so--as if it was an afterthought and adaptation of the cruising layout, and feels a bit like the Bristol marketing department had Alberg try to squeeze about 10 pounds of accommodation into a 5-pound boat, and he had to compromise the cabin trunk form (e.g., looks aesthetically challenged, like my Westerly) and bridge deck. Maybe with a dodger they don't look so bad?
The CD27 gives you the full (exposed) sea berths of the settees, and the full aft galley, and cockpit lockers both port and starboard, plus lazarette storage (with inboard). It also has the bridge deck, full height cabin trunk into the forward cabin, plus the small sized portlights (opening, I believe). A nice setup if you are cruising with a small crew and can make better use of the storage over extra berth(s).
This CD27 has such a simple, straightforward layout, that fits naturally within the hull and a nicely proportioned cabin trunk. The boat is 600 lbs heavier than the B27 and has another 6" of beam, so it is a substantially larger boat and the main cabin is and will feel much roomier.
My understanding is that Cape Dory is also step up in quality of build and materials/hardware.
This boat price is too-good-to-be-true, so it may turn out to be just that, or it could be one of the exceptions.
Again, Good luck,
Jim
TIM said it all! It depends how fast you want to go flat broke.
If it were me I would go for the Cape Dory if its in decent shape.
TOM
I'd almost certainly succumb to the temptation, get the CD27, and then ask for forgiveness later--perhaps donate the B24 to a charity as penance, put St Christopher up on the main bulkhead and go find a nice beach in the Abacos to try to feel guilty on. Send humble postcards back home...
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 18, 2010, 06:03:53 PM
go find a nice beach in the Abacos to try to feel guilty on.
LOL guilt is MUCH better on a beach in the tropics
Quote from: Tim on April 18, 2010, 06:31:05 PM
Quote from: Jim_ME on April 18, 2010, 06:03:53 PM
go find a nice beach in the Abacos to try to feel guilty on.
LOL guilt is MUCH better on a beach in the tropics
Don't tempt me!
OK. I'll give the CD owner a call and see what's up. Says the engine runs. One has to wonder... there are so many different definitions to cosmetically rough... from the "this should be firewood" to "just clean it a bit".
Ha. I should be careful tempting anyone...they may ask me to meet them there--and then I might have to get my boating act together, myself.
Yeah, ad says "...new sails, 2 cyl. Yanmar inboard diesel engine; runs great."
Should be interesting.
Looking forward to a full report.
I own a CD28 that I keep on a trailer that used to hold a Bristol 27. The Bristol 27 came with the trailer, and we toyed with the idea of keeping her for several months. However we didn't like the dinette arrangement and the final straw was that a buyer literally found us. So I've owned both boats. I've cut, drilled, ripped cabinetry out of, and generally mucked about on both.
The Bristol 27 we owned (early 70's I think) was by FAR better built, than the Cape Dory we currently own. Comparing the two is almost apples to oranges ***regarding Build Quality***. I dislike cape dory's chain-plate arrangement and use of a hull liner. That being said the Bristol also displayed a higher level of craftsmanship/care in general. The Bristol also withstood time, abuse and neglect far better than the Cape Dory, FWIW.
***The Cape Dory has nicer hardware to be sure. And also wins on almost any issue involving aesthetics.***
I'm not sure this comparison holds true for all other Bristols or CD's. I've never looked at any other Bristols. It's quite likely IMO that a Bristol built in 1968 would be much different than one built in 1980. Thus perhaps Bristols reputation for being of a lesser build quality is based on different models or later years.
I would find it tough to decide between a B27 and a CD27, All things being equal. However, I've been on a B24 and I would think that if the $$ were the same I wouldn't hesitate to move up the the B27.
Hi Mark, I like the looks of the B27 cruising model, and the weekender model, it's just the B27 dinette model that seems out of character for an Alberg design with respect to the cabin trunk extension aft, and eliminated bridge deck.
I looked at a B27 (also an early 70s model) cruising model and nearly bought it. The main cabin did seem somewhat small for the boat size, a price paid for the enclosed head/hanging locker. It was also shy about 2" in headroom for me (I believe that it is 5'-10") and that was a factor. I have to remind myself that the Ariel has a main cabin that is just as big and many on this site do just fine without an enclosed head.
I did own a 1975 Cape Dory Typhoon for 12 years and loved it. I realized that the interior liner would create a problem if I even had to repair any serious hull damage from the inside, which I fortunately never had any need to. This would be limiting for an interior layout redo, but of course, that would be unusual for such a small boat. The hardware piece that I liked was the massive (for a 19 footer) bronze bow fitting with the integral opening chocks. (I replaced the Typhoon with a Hurley 18 which has the feature of no interior liner and is nearly 400 pounds heavier.)
A friend had a mid 1970s Cape Dory 30 cutter that I thought had a high quality interior, and it didn't hurt that he kept it in bristol condition. He is an engineer and seemed to like it very much.
You are the first person that I have heard compare the Bristols favorably to the Cape Dorys regarding build quality, but you certainly have more experience than I with them in general and with the two examples that you owned, and it is only a general impression that I got over the years and not from anything like serious research.
It may indeed be unfair to judge Bristols on both design, construction, and sailing performance based on the B24, but they are so common that it may be something that many people do. I actually like the B24's clean cabin trunk design and shippy sheer line. I liked the looks of the B26, but avoided it because of a preference for a full keel/attached rudder in those days.
I think my favorite Bristol of the ones that I have seen in person is the Ted Hood designed Bristol 32.
If Bristols in general do withstand time, abuse and neglect far better than Cape Dorys that may help explain the low price of this CD27, if it has been neglected. Still may be worth checking out. Having a good running (if it actually is) Yanmar diesel inboard seems like a nice feature.
Jim
After sleeping on it, my only hesitation for the b27 is making certain I can get the title clear. If so, then it's going to be a go. I'm concerned that the cd27 is going to leave me faced with a significant amount of work to get it wet, representing no real change in status.
The lack of bridge deck doesn't trouble me so much, as I face the same issue with the b24, and had already formulated a solution based on what I've read, looked at in photos and my own wild imagination.
As to the shape of the cabin trunk on this one... I was actually surprised to find it was a dinette version when I climbed in, as it seemed like the cruising model (lazerettes, cabin hump shape, etc.) from the outside. Honestly, if a non-dinette version had appeared I would be thrilled, but I'm okay with the galley arrangement.
We'll see what the USCG says about the documentation. Then I'll know whether it's a go or no-go.
Hey Tom:
If you can find out the CD 27's name, you might be able to track the boat through the CDSOA website and bulletin board.
It could be that they're moving up, or down, in size.
BTW, the 27 is probably the prettiest and best sailing of the Cape Dory boats--the one with the purest Alberg design. It was the boat owned by people who worked for Cape Dory Yachts, which says a lot for the vessel.
Good luck,
--Joe
Tom, Here are photos for comparison showing both the cruising version (first two, which I feel have the standard Alberg trunk look, similar to the Ariel or A30) and the dinette version. I guess as the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. (Again, perhaps the most offensive thing that I could say about the dinette trunk is that it reminds me of my Westerly. ;) ) Both versions are Alberg designed, and that is certainly a good thing.
Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.
Jim
I do hope that somebody checks out that CD27 though, now that I'm curious about it. If I was closer to it I'd go see it myself.
Wow, if that 1967 Bristol says SEA SKIP and Noank CT On the transom, then that was the same B27 I owned for several months. She looks to be the same one when I compare her to photos of mine.
Yup, same boat. I think that was for sale several years ago, and I was so impressed by the Triad trailer design, that I saved the photos to use for reference for a potential future trailer.
It is a really nice trailer, we still have it :) Small world.
Mark, It is a small world. It looked like a great trailer setup for a largish keel boat. I have a Triad single-axle float-off (with the extending tongue) trailer that i used with the CD Typhoon and now plan to use with the Hurley 18. The H18 draws 3'-3" (8" more than the Typhoon), so we'll see how that works with the trailer. I do have another 10-foot extension that I can add if needed.
Tom, I had a blast with the Alberg Typhoon for 12 years, so I do agree that the most important thing is get out there.
I'd still have the Typhoon, but was sailing farther out than it was equipped for and got a chance to get the H18 (very reasonably) that already had a bow pulpit and happened to have a bridge deck, and a bit more cabin room.
Having read all of this, I think I'd go with the B27. My reasonings below.
Sailable: Both 27's are, not the 24, so it's out. Your time is much more valuable than you think - spend it sailing, not fixing, where at all possible. :) Trust me on this one!!!
Build: The 60's era B27 will likely have been laid up heavier and with better resins than a 70's CD. Both will have their own set of issues WRT build quality and builders choices, +'s and -'s, beyond that which all in all are likely to 'cancel out' in the long run.
Engine: Outboard, hands down. More cabin space, less noise, less smell, less weight, easier maintenance, lower cost.
Esthetics: Both are pretty boats. 2 things strike me about the look of the hump-roof B27:
- It appears to have smaller deadlights proportionately than the non-hump B27. If so, it will be easy to alter the overall appearance/sleekness of the cabin trunk by going to externally mounted plexi/Lexan deadlights of a slightly larger size and perhaps different shape. Done properly, you could give the trunk a whole new look much more like an A30/Triton/Ariel with some subtle changes here.
- The eyebrow - same thing. Instead of keeping the 'swoop' in that line, make the transition at the step more angular, and you could fool the eye into seeing something almost completely different from the original look.
Just some thoughts. :)
Re: the Catholic Guilt - yep, I'd be feeling the same thing. Have felt it before, would sure feel it again, if ever the time came. Boats is boats, and we love 'em, especially after we decide to take one under our wing. Just be sure to find her a good new owner, and you can assuage that somewhat. :)
Seems like a good deal, It would have cost me 10k to upgrade my C-22 to the same level of my C-26 that I got at a great deal.
good luck
I think the boats on the pic's above are beautiful boats! It's up to you what to do.
Well...have to agree that both of the popular versions do look better than the rare B27 LM Model, which despite boasting even more room, for some reason never really caught on.
Hmm, Jim, I dunno about that model...
It lacks a certain amount of that traditional, ummmm, shall we say, "atmosphere", and at only 1/6th the weight of the other two models, might not handle a snotty sea with much in the way of comfort...
On the upside - It sure will go a helluva long way between ports, though!
Sometimes it just seems like "space" considerations trump traditional proportions. Probably could stash a lot of Tang in such a cabin.
Maybe "Lunar-lander" trunk works better as a descriptive term than a graphic/visual. S/V Apollo Oh No.
This has gotten alittle to out there for me.
Yes, so back down to Earth (reentry/splashdown) then...
Regarding the B27 interior, I had written in a previous post that the enclosed head was a nice feature (vs. the B24). However, while I was looking through my B27 photos I found these...from someone who did not appear to agree. I was struck by the heroic measures that he was willing to go to to rework the interior, remove a bulkhead and maintain structural support for the mast, put a portable head at the V-berth--and ended up with essentially the Ariel interior layout (albeit larger). I look at all the work and think that I would probably just sell the boat and get an Ariel or Triton/A30 (if seeking both an enclosed head and a more spacious cabin), but you have to admire someone with the audacity to say in effect.. "You know what...this is just wrong and I'm going to fix it." No doubt creating more room for adding the cabin heater was a consideration, but he also made an opening in the remaining bulkhead to enhance the feeling of spaciousness. It is a tribute to the B27 that the owner appreciated the other features enough to be willing to make such an investment in it.
So this does seem to confirm that the cruising layout, although you may be able to physically fit the settee berths and overlapping galley into the main cabin, may just "feel" cramped. Perhaps recognizing this may have led Alberg to extend the cabin aft and up to try to address it in the Dinette version, even at the expense somewhat of the more traditionally proportionate cruiser cabin trunk, and his typical companionway bridge deck.
Well, I've been stymied for the past several days. Couldn't raise the guy with the CD (phone was turned off everytime I tried), then my new lady in my life came and went like a rogue wave. So I'm back to looking at my b24 thinking, it's not such a bad boat, it's all paid for, and who know what I can do with it?
I would really prefer a better one, but it looks like my teaching position is now uncertain, so I'm a little unsure about doing anything but holding tight for now.
I apologize if the thread seems like a wild goose chase. I really do appreciate all the thought, care and advice everyone has shown. If I can get my "duck in a row" then perhaps I'll try to jump on a b27 or cd or similar. In the meantime, I'm going to finish scrubbing up my little ugly duckling, and see if I can get her in the water.
Tom, That might explain why the seller of the CD27 had to drop the price so low--to compensate for not being available when potential buyers inquire? There is often something amiss when you find a boat priced so low, and that may be one of the issues is in this case.
Sorry to hear about your relationship. As my Dad would say to me...usually things will work out for the best, in time.
I actually like the salty looks of the B24, and its room. If you planned to make some long voyages with it, its sailing abilities compared to an Ariel or B27 might be a drawback, but then few boats do compare well to Albergs, in general. As a boat to get out on the water and have fun in, the B24 will be fine.
No real harm in going with what you got and upgrading to a bigger boat later, especially if job security is uncertain (as it is for many of us in this recession). If you repair the B24, you will get some enjoyment out of it and it will be easier to sell it for more later. Many people here have worked on boats a lot, and can give you advice and encouragement. You can share your challenges and progress by posting photos (as others have), so that you won't feel that you are doing it in isolation.
Jim, thank you for the comment/encouragement.
And a really heartfelt thank you to sailfar as a whole. Absolutely wonderful environment to explore issues for those of us with smaller boats and even smaller pocketbooks.
Before the ladyfriend arrived on the scene, I had a whole scheme setup to work on upgrading the b24, because it's size and space are really pretty okay for one person. And I don't have to be in a hurry when I eventually take it out for heavy-duty cruising. At least, that's the intent (fingers crossed!).
Tom, You're very welcome.
Craig & Rose's voyage on Faith (in the People, Boats, and Stories -- SB/LD Cruisers section), and Charlie & Laura's currently on Tehani, show what you (or a couple) can do with a boat the size of your B24. Craig's quote "Satisfaction is wanting what you already have." sums it up pretty well.
Have you checked out the photos in the gallery of Charlie and Laura restoring their Meridian Tehani? After you view them, the work you need to do will probably seem less daunting than it does now.
As you could tell, I'm interested in design and the compromises that a sailboat designer chooses to make, and since you were looking at the B27, and comparing it to the CD27, it presented an opportunity to discuss that and the various features and compromises. Yet these differences pale in significance to you finding a way to get out there and sail in something.
Still I do think that ultimately--as Craig describes at the beginning of his thread, his appreciation for and a bonding to his Ariel when he first saw it there in the slip--it does help to have that feeling for your boat, and these differences (even subtle ones) come into play here. Having that connection to your boat emotionally, in addition to what you may know about its features and technical design, helps motivate us to care about the boat, its repair and maintenance. In one sense, sailboats are works of art and labors of love, and sailing and cruising are romantic arts. (I'm sure that others have already thought and written this.)
I hear you re the small pocketbook, and have read in another thread that the Small Boat - Sail Far philosophy also includes the KISS principle. I consider myself squarely in the Small Frugal Boat - Sail Near camp at the moment, but aspire to eventually get a sailboat down to some of these areas where others in this forum are sailing.
Looking forward to hearing in future posts how your work on the boat is going.
Jim
The funniest thing about reading through the evolution of Tehani (a great inspiration btw) is that for the longest time reading through that material, I presumed the boat was much larger than mine, and that there was no way I was going to be able to compete with that given what I was working with... until one day it dawned on me my boat was essentially the same size.
And if I can "love what I have" just a bit, the forward berthing area in the b24 is relatively large as a result of the pushed-up upswept prow on that design. Much less claustrophobic than the b27.
I anticipate a work session on Thursday, with photos along the way. Hopefully no critters have decided to nest among the goodies so far. At that point, I'll start a boat build thread on her.