Anybody have any experience with these before? The Freedom yachts use free standing carbon fiber masts. These boats are either ketch or fractional sloops with self trending jibs. For cruisers, eliminating all of the standing rigging is a huge benefit in terms of reliability. What you don't have, can't break!! Accounts of parts of the standing rigging failing are endless. There are far too many "mission critical" components on a typical sailboat's standing rigging. These boats used a sail that wrapped around the mast instead of a track and cars, many of them have been converted, as the friction between sail and mast was a problem when lowering sails. These boats have a huge beam, and a great interior layout. Some of them have shoal draft. The hull and deck are both cored with balsa, but the company used Vinyl ester resin before it was common, and paid a lot of attention to detail, so incidence of soaked core, delamination, and osmosis are rare. (This from reviews I've read).
The 33% jib area of the fractional rig makes a rig that can be converted to a junk rig without moving the unstayed keel stepped mast. It was the mast that caught my attention of course because of weight, but the entire boat looks superb!! Almost too good to be true.
H.W.
I would say freedom boats are a good production boat. I think they were all balsa cored hulls but most of the big money european builders are coring hulls with balsa now . There was a 30 something came through the marina a few years ago AFTER BEING DISMASTED IN THE GULF OF MEXICO coming up from tampa to panama city. Just saying
Quote from: Lars on November 27, 2016, 03:34:02 PM
I would say freedom boats are a good production boat. I think they were all balsa cored hulls but most of the big money european builders are coring hulls with balsa now . There was a 30 something came through the marina a few years ago AFTER BEING DISMASTED IN THE GULF OF MEXICO coming up from tampa to panama city. Just saying
This dismasting anecdote is pretty pointless as it doesn't include ANY details of the episode. These masts carry a lifetime guarantee from the factory, and are extremely strong. Short of pitchpoling the boat, or hitting a bridge, the probability of failure is near zero. On the other hand failure of any of dozens of components in the standing rigging will bring a conventional stayed mast down, and many of those parts are 60' in the air and are not easily inspected. Dismasting of stayed masts is commonplace. Look at adds for used sailboats, and many of them say something like "all new standing rigging last year". It's a serious and continuing maintenance cost because it is so vulnerable. To lose a well built carbon fiber free standing mast you have to get into some pretty extreme situations, perhaps pitchpoling in "Fastnet" type conditions.
All those guy wires (shrouds and stays), apparently give some people a sense of security as compared to that single slender pole...... not me. Where you see good triangulation and bracing, I see dozens of potential failure points, and an ongoing maintenance expense.
H.W.
It was broken at deck level.. I talked to the guy but do not recall any more details. I am a big fan of the junk rig idea and though about going junk on my vega but just bought new sails instead because of the expense. Another thing to consider that a modified boat will have no resale value in the united states anyway. It is certainly the rig for sailing off the wind. As far as keeping the rig up .. unstayed junk rig boats are dismasted jester and jester 2 both broke their masts and there are quite a few writeups in the junk rig association website abouts masts breaking. A properly maintained mastead sloop rig is still the way to go as far as I am concerned anyway
Quote from: Lars on November 28, 2016, 02:45:35 PM
It was broken at deck level.. I talked to the guy but do not recall any more details. I am a big fan of the junk rig idea and though about going junk on my vega but just bought new sails instead because of the expense. Another thing to consider that a modified boat will have no resale value in the united states anyway. It is certainly the rig for sailing off the wind. As far as keeping the rig up .. unstayed junk rig boats are dismasted jester and jester 2 both broke their masts and there are quite a few writeups in the junk rig association website abouts masts breaking. A properly maintained mastead sloop rig is still the way to go as far as I am concerned anyway
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.............. The mast breakage on Jester for example occurred in extreme conditions. It also destroyed the coach roof on the original Jester. Both or course were wooden masts, though that does not necessarily make them more prone to breakage. Deck level is where an unstayed mast is most likely to break because of simple physics. It's the greatest stress point. I've thought a great deal about this stress point and how to alleviate it. One option that I've considered is a very high durometer polyurethane "rubber" separating the mast from a larger diameter sleeve so that there wasn't a "hard point". The fact remains that mast failures with stayed masts are extremely common, often in relatively mild conditions because of the numerous potential points of failure.
A large portion of my business involves dealing with structures that have failed, and devising ways to prevent a repeat of that failure without simply moving the failure point to another location, which is nearly always the case with poorly designed repairs. People hire me because they know that it will not fail again. In some cases there is no way to prevent failure, and in those cases I design a predictable failure mode into the structure. A "weak link" that will fail and do the least possible damage. Not an original idea needless to say, I use it a lot. I remember as customer who was having a roller chain fail almost daily on a piece of equipment, because it was being used in ways beyond it's intended design. I pointed out that the machine was inadequate for the job, but I advised him to install half a dozen master links and file notches in each of them, so when the chain broke, it broke through a master link and could be repaired in minutes. Instead he went to a heavier chain, which resulted in failure of a drive shaft. I again advised him to file notches in master links as before, but instead he had a heavier drive shaft built. Then the gearbox failed and the machine scrapped. He could have sold the machine early on, or resigned himself to replacing a master link every day, and gotten by until he could see his way to getting the right machine for the job. He listens to me now!!
The point is that masts WILL fail in "Fastnet" conditions. You pitchpole a boat and you are going to lose your mast......... and you should. If you don't, then other more serious damage is liable to result. With a stayed mast that failure can take place in countless ways, from ripping chain plates right out of the boat to failure at any point above that. It will fail....... it must. With an unstayed mast, the failure will take place at the highest stress for strength area, which depends on mast construction. I've thought more than once that a deck mounted tabernacle engineered to allow mast failure without actual mast breakage when stressed beyond predetermined limits might be worth consideration. The fact remains that only in extreme conditions such as hitting a bridge, or pitchpoling, or one of those monster waves that do occur somewhat predictably, breaking over your boat, are you going to lose a free standing mast.
The thought has occurred to me........ and probably to others that a set of "jury stays and shrouds" could be hoisted up the mast via a halyard in extreme conditions when you were flying no canvas. But would that save the mast, or result in chain plates being ripped out of the boat? When we talk about mast failure on a free standing mast, we are always talking about extreme conditions..... or a serious construction or engineering flaw. If you are at all realistic, or intellectually honest, you will realize that boats with stayed masts would be dismasted under the same conditions.
This is reminiscent of the reaction people had to cantilever wings on aircraft. "the wings are going to fall off"......... and wings have fallen off, but wings have failed on aircraft with struts and wires also.
For me, the free standing mast is the only mast I want........ but I want one that is well engineered. If it is keel stepped, I want to examine how to reduce stress concentration at the partners. Frankly I feel far more confident going to sea with a free standing mast, than one supported by a maze of wires, fittings, turnbuckles, etc.
Stays and shrouds are comforting, because they "look right". It's always been done that way...........
You and I will have to agree to disagree....... as is the case with myself and many of my friends. I wouldn't have any otherwise ;-)
H.W.
I've "buddy boated" with a freedom 36 years ago. Nice interior and a fast boat off wind!
I'm sure their masts are as good as any...
Nonsuch have a large unstayed mast as well....
Many of them lout there....
Maybe I've been doing this too long...but to me, the best rig is the one you use. I've witnessed folks on every type of rig and boat possible. ALL are great and awesome folks!! All great boats too...
Like so very many things in life:
Some dream about it
Some talk about it
Some like working on em
Some get out and use em
The best rig is the one YOU USE
Hope whatever mast/rig/boat you decide comes to fruition and Ya get "out there"
It is SO nice afloat!
Quote from: Frank on November 29, 2016, 10:19:52 PM
I've "buddy boated" with a freedom 36 years ago. Nice interior and a fast boat off wind!
I'm sure their masts are as good as any...
Nonsuch have a large unstayed mast as well....
Many of them lout there....
Maybe I've been doing this too long...but to me, the best rig is the one you use. I've witnessed folks on every type of rig and boat possible. ALL are great and awesome folks!! All great boats too...
Like so very many things in life:
Some dream about it
Some talk about it
Some like working on em
Some get out and use em
The best rig is the one YOU USE
Hope whatever mast/rig/boat you decide comes to fruition and Ya get "out there"
It is SO nice afloat!
Yup, that's soooo true! ;D
For whatever it's worth I choose the boat as such and as a unit, rather than look for a particular rig,a particular rudder / keel configuration or number of bunks or whatever, tink you'll get the idea. Most things can be modified, perhaps improved, but most importantly checked and maintained in accordance of it' real or feared weak points.
A 'classic' stayed Merconi rig, I check every little pice after each passage and at least once a year apart from that, a large spade rudder, if I had one, it would come out for inspection at least every second haul-out and so on with whatever essentia gear the boat has got.
As for the thread, the Freedoms I like them a lot, though never sailed on one, and they would make for a very easy junk conversion if one wished to do that.
Unstayed masts do break at times, perhaps not so unexpected Due to the constant bending and flexing they are subjected to under way. I recall a thread on boatdesign.net (IIrC) where Eric Sponberg warned of the now older carbon spars developing transversal cracks.... I understand that some owners tried to "repair" or rather hide this by applying epoxi putty or something along those lines .....seemingly not very clever.
Everything eventually fails, if not maintained, replaced or repaired as needed.
Skip the rant , I apologize for straying off topic a bit, but during the last 12 months in our "home base bay" I've seen two 40-footers with severe osmosis "repaired" in the little yard. By the owners N.B.
Bothe covered with hundreds of large blisters as deep as 6-7 mm(>1/4").thus well into the structural roving mats.
Drilled out with conical bits, left to dry a few days, the. Filled and faired with to me unknown compound and painted. Nice and shiny, put up for sale boasting preventive osmosis treatment.
Beware- totally impossible to know for presumptive buyers...
Another diversion if i may.
Carbon fiber is a material with special properties, strengths but also weaknesses. I am not sure how well it holds up over time. 20 something years ago I took my first course in kayaking/Eskimo rolling. The instructor had an amusing story about his carbon fiber kayak, one of the first made by this new space age material. They were on a long, open water crossing and played on the wake from the large cruise ships, trying to catch the surf on the wake waves. When he was catching a wave and the aft half of the kayak was on water and the front half was suspended in the air he felt a crack and the whole kayak crushed and delaminated around the cockpit.
Much has been learned since then and when I bought a new kayak a few years ago I was coaxed into buying a CF- kayak for a great price as it had been used for some demonstrations. Paddling it was great but put it on a hard, uneven surface and you would here the unmistakable sounds of resin cracking where a fiber glass boat would flex. They are simply to stiff for normal cruising use. A used carbon fiber mast - who knows?
;D ;D
and here I am, with my wooden mast, built in 1961
;D ;D
And I am reminded of a cartoon in Jim Brown's book "Case for the Cruising Trimaran"
Has a sailor walking into a south seas island village, broken aluminum mast over shoulder asking
"Hi there- you weldum aluminum???" ;D
Maybe off topic.....maybe not....
Years ago there was a derict boat in black sound. A great, but unused and neglected early 60's design. There it sat.... A friend, Brian sold it to another friend Bill..who traded labour for the boat to a young Irishman Tig (sp?) he lived aboard....working to pay it off and working on the boat. None of his repairs were what most would call "proper" and would leave most of us concerned. He did this for about 2 years!!
The joke was he did NOT sail the boat!! Anchored at Manjacck...he did one run....back n forth to Marsh Harbour. (This message coming from there now)
I advised he should go out in 25+ here to learn the boat BEFORE he needed to. Nope...sat ot the mooring. This became a bit of a joke....
When is Tig leaving??? Dates constantly moved ahead...
We ALL felt he would never leave ( I posted this somewhere way back)
Then one day we all woke up...there he was...Gone!!!
He sailed S to Panama......took hikers from there to Venusaula (sp?) n back for a few years....had a fine lass fly in, and took the boat back all the way to Ireland!!!
Point being.....most of us wouldn't have crossed the sea of Abaco with her and there he was...doing southern Caribbean deliveries AND a transatlantic!!!
Tig was a great guy! Good singer/ song writer and very missed here.
He took that old boat through crazy stuff.....and IT TOOK HIM!!!'
He DID IT!!!
On extreme budjet!!!
And to say he was inexperienced would be an understatement!!!
We all tend to "over think" things too often....
Here's to Tig....
And "doing it" !!!
great- and well, that's what this site is for isn't it?
Have you seen the movie "Bridge of spies"?
James B. Donovan - You don't seem worried!
Rudolf Abel - Would it help?
Freedom yachts.....back to the topic.
You probably all know this, but there are a few more cat ketches along similar ideas
Nonsuch, Herreshoff and then a very uncommon boat designed by none less thanBruce Kirby, the "father of the Laser" among others, Ticon 34. I believe there were only a few built, and a wee bit larger than Sailfar size but to me it seems like the perfect cruising boat for a couple. Huge space down below, simple rig and handling, and the a centreboard for access to all those shallow gunkholes around.... Mmmmm would like that ;D
And the Beachcomber 26, ketch rig, wishbone booms, free standing masts- one is in a slip directly in front of my boat at the marina
And I rebuilt a table in the main cabin of another one about 8 years ago
Is the Beachcomber communist Dave's? He was going to get rid of his mast altogether last time we talked to him. There's a used mast for somebody.
Yes- he's living on his power boat now. One boom removed, but masts still in place
Quote from: CharlieJ on December 02, 2016, 02:07:25 PM
And the Beachcomber 26, ketch rig, wishbone booms, free standing masts- one is in a slip directly in front of my boat at the marina
And I rebuilt a table in the main cabin of another one about 8 years ago
Great! I was not aware of this one. Definitely sailfar size too!!
Talk is cheap........... I'm a year and a half or so off from being able to actually "pull the trigger". This is the time to talk about things, and work out details, decide what actually will meet my needs. As I write, "my boat" belongs to someone else, who is probably paying slip fees or storage fees, insurance, maintenance costs, and everything else for a boat that he sails a couple of times a year. I can take some satisfaction in that.
Meanwhile I can hammer out the details so that when I do "pull the trigger", I will have a pretty well fleshed out plan of action. There is nothing more frustrating than waiting, but at least it can be put to good use.
Here is a drawing Arne K, one of the well known experts within the Junk Rig Association drew up of the mast relocation and a suitable sail plan for the Searunner 31. It's a challenging proposition considering the narrow hull, and the weight sensitivity. I worked out the only reasonable relocation as being 41.5" (approx) forward of the original location, which moves the mast forward from being centered in the sleeping area of the forward cabin (first section) to the center of the dressing room area. Any single sail junk rig conversion is likely going to result in the center of effort being further aft, and of course with only a single sail, one lacks the ability to balance the boat for a neutral helm that you have with a multi sail rig. It's pretty much a given that an enlarged and balanced rudder is desirable or realistically necessary. I've been toying with the idea of using the original mast location, and fixed surfaces aft to shift the center of lateral resistance aft. If using the original location, I would use some form of split junk rig, which enables the sail balance to be as much as 33% forward of the mast, and take it all the way to 33% instead of the 15% Arne shows here. Visually, without measuring anything yet, it looks like the change from 15% to 33% and the mast remaining in the stock location will only set the center of effort a short distance aft of the sail plan shown here. I feel it's worth the trouble of compensating for this shift to keep the mast location the same and have less effect on the actual weight and balance of the boat. In doing this, a classic aluminum light pole mast could be used with probably little to no net gain in weight once removal of all the standing rigging is accounted for.
The idea that currently intrigues me is a pair of kick up rudders or dagger boards...... I'm not sure which term applies, one on the transom of each ama. They would be airfoil shaped, with end plates to get max efficiency out of them, and fairly small. They would be turnbuckle adjustable (while straddling the ama), and would be able to be slid up and down initially. The idea here is that the further aft your surface is, the greater it's directional effect. Rather than a large surface amidships to provide lateral resistance, these would do it dynamically. From level to 15 degrees of heel (I almost said bank), the leeward one would plunge 2' down, and the windward one two feet up approximately if my math is correct. That means that a fixed angle of attack could be used on each one for the tack it was effective on, and the stronger the wind, the more the boat is going to heel, the more of the foil submerge, and the more lateral resistance it will create. Once "tuned", you would never touch them again. They would be built of wood, sealed with epoxy, and probably fiberglassed. Tuning would be both by adjusting angle and depth, and surplus foil above the trunk would ultimately be sawn off.
It seems to me like an elegant and fairly simple solution that is pretty specific to a trimaran. I posted photos of Arne's camber panel junk rig Johanna and Slieve's split junk rig Poppy in previous posts, so I won't repeat them here. Photos of both are easily found on Google anyway.
H.W.
Looks good to me, thougn i am certain l'y no expert on these projects. My impression is that Arne retain oh knows what he's doing though....
Good luck with it!
Would be nice to have both a "simple to sail" and fast boat all in one!
That would certainly fit....
I have been watching Jim Browns you tube videos of the sea runner 31 and it is a very intriguing design. It was a few years since I drew junk rig sail plans from Arnes instructions but what you have looks good! I see your sail area is 46,5 square meters. Is that correct? If I recall correctly Arne thought that 28 was the largest sail area one could comfortably manage on one mast. Larger then that he recommended two masts?
Friends Brad and Brenda base out of the Florida Keys but have crossed to winter in the Abacos for years now with their tri. Great folks, fast boat!
With the right conditions....their speed is in the teens!
Just confirmed with Brenda that it is a Sea Runner.
Quote from: SeaHusky on December 04, 2016, 03:29:51 PM
I have been watching Jim Browns you tube videos of the sea runner 31 and it is a very intriguing design. It was a few years since I drew junk rig sail plans from Arnes instructions but what you have looks good! I see your sail area is 46,5 square meters. Is that correct? If I recall correctly Arne thought that 28 was the largest sail area one could comfortably manage on one mast. Larger then that he recommended two masts?
That is correct. Arne drew this sailplan for me, so he must have changed his mind on the limits. The only real limitation is the weight on the halyard, which is typically run through a multipart block so the sail may be easily hoisted by hand, but there is no reason why a winch can't be used. Sheet loads are never heavy with the balance area forward of the mast transfering a very significant percentage of load to the mast itself that would ordinarily be on the sheets.
Since Arne drew up this sail plan, I've determined that due to structural and space considerations, the mast has to go about 20" further aft, and be offset about 8" to one side, which as unusual as it sounds, has been done before for the same reason, and works fine. The location and area of the sail would remain more or less the same, but due to the increased balance area, only a split junk rig would work properly.
Thankfully "talk is cheap", and I can work out this stuff far in advance of actually doing the conversion or even buying the boat, which somebody else is paying slip or storage fees, insurance, etc for right now. I will be constructing a full size simple wood and cardboard mock up of the interior spaces to determine to what degree access will be compromised by the mast. The forward part of the boat is not a heavily used area. The two sea berths extend from the first forward compartment under the cockpit seating, in the portion of the boat with the least motion, the best sleeping area. Forward of this is a dressing room, which has full standing height. The sleeping area does not due to the centerboard trunk, leaving only about 4.5 feet. The dressing room provides a place where you can stand and dress, and has the wash basin for the head which is another step downward. Aft of the cockpit is the most important area. The galley, which is full height, and the dining and lounging area aft of the dining area, which is a step up and not full height, and has windows all around. My original mast location was dead center in the dressing room, which is a small area. The location was selected because of the need to keep the mast from blocking doorways, and seemed the only viable location. This of course compromises the small space making it inconvenient. It also places the mast forward of the primary structural elements of the boat which are the centerboard trunk and the massive bulkhead forward of it to which the struts are attached. This intersection is the ideal location in terms of structure, but placing the mast in the middle of it leaves only about a foot on either side of the mast, and I can't weasel through a space that small. Shifting the mast to one side 8" makes this opening useable if a tad snug, takes advantage of the structure here, and leaves the dressing room a useable space. The only other alternative is a strutted tabernacle right on top of the heavy bulkhead with about 6 struts going to strong points. This would NOT be pretty, but would have some distinct advantages. The tabernacle in this case would have to extend to the height where the boom crosses the mast, and be quite strong. The struts would then angle downward to the 6 hard points where the coach roof meets the 3 bulkheads involved. An ugly contraption at best.
Aside from the mast relocation, there is the issue of center of effort and center of lateral resistance. The center of effort is going to move aft which will give weather helm which will have to be counteracted by some strategy to move the CLR aft. I have several ideas on how to do this.
What it all boils down to is that this is NOT going to be a simple conversion, but I'm not someone to go into a project like this with my eyes wide shut. I'm very very good at visualizing and running through mental simulations of what the issues will be, and devising solutions to them before other people even know they exist. It's what has made me successful and sought after in my business. I see the problems before they happen, and know just what to do weather it's something I'm designing and building or someone else's project. I'm just wired that way.
H.W.
Have you tried sketching a two-mast rig to see if you get better options for mast placement?
Quote from: SeaHusky on December 07, 2016, 02:45:49 PM
Have you tried sketching a two-mast rig to see if you get better options for mast placement?
I have not for several reasons, though the thought has crossed my mind several times. The main reason is simplicity, and the other structural. First of all, the mast pretty much must go just forward or aft of the main forward structural bulkhead, for structural reasons. That's where the strength is in the boat. A foremast would be in an area with little structure, and would of necessity be small. It would not have the "bury" because the coach roof ends well aft of the possible location. Logically a head stay as is used on the Freedom series yachts, carrying jib with a furling device would make more sense for balance. It would accomplish the same thing with less structure. My goal is simplicity, I would like to have one sail, period. The junk rig sail is a low stress sail that reefs instantly, and has very light sheeting loads. The jib is a reasonable compromise, but a foremast would seem not to be practical in this boat. The whole project involves some serious challenges due to the very small interior. Plunking the mast down directly through the dressing room still makes sense to me, but it would make the dressing room as it exists pretty useless except for stowage. However if the mast is offset to one side at the aft end of the dressing room by 8-10 inches so it allows access, it would have minimal impact on sailing due to the rig being 33% balanced (33% forward of the mast), and the very wide stance of the trimaran. My thinking at the moment is to do this, and to build an oversize balanced transom mounted rudder with a trim tab that can either be set so as to create a neutral helm, or driven from a windvane. Some of these boats have a transom mounted rudder, others have the rudder forward. The ideal boat would have a forward rudder on a skeg, and a transom rudder would be added. This forward skeg mounted rudder could then be used as lateral resistance as if it were more keel, or even set up to be deflected to one side or the other as needed for trim, while the transom mounted rudder would be the steering control. I don't believe the forces would be very high. An additional trimming tool on a sailboat is not a bad thing.
H.W.
Just looking at boats for sale on a rain day. Always entertaining.
Thought of Owly when I saw this one.
28ft
Cat ketch
Free standing carbon fibre spars
Diesel
Only 2.5ft draft board up!! (I love shallow draft!)
Etc etc
Note...price is Canadian!
About $6850 USA$$
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/barrie/1981-freedom-cat-ketch-diesel-drop-keel:-2-5-draft-easy-project/1261371487?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true