The hunt continues. I now have the wife's blessing to actually buy if the right one comes along. Here in Wisconsin most people have their boats put away by now, but I want a boat in the water come spring.
I haven't given up on the idea of a full keeler, but I'm also keeping myself open to the more modern design fin but prefer at least a skeg hung rudder and a good amount of ballast.
I've now been through a ton of boats and really have a better idea of what I'm looking for.
As far as the fin/skeg configurations go, I've found a couple and was hoping to get your opinions on the quality of construction of these boats.
Irwin 32 - 1973
Ericson - In general
Cal - In general
Chris, maybe you have already been through this a couple of times- but what do you want to do with the boat? For example: Daysail in a lake- I will sell you my Compac 23 at 14k. Ocean Voyage? get a Valiant 32 at 60k. Or something in between. And how much room do you need - Ocean Voyage small- Contessa 26. Ocean Voyage big- well you know where you can go with lots of $$. :)
I'll try to be brief :)
The bulk of my sailing will probably be single-handing, or possibly having a friend or two aboard. I have a wife that isn't particularly crazy about sailing but if I want her to join me at all the boat needs to be clean and in good working order all around...
I sail in the Great Lakes - Primarily in Lake Michigan and plan to do at least one or two 200 mile + cruises a year. I want something that can stand up to nasty weather and rough seas because the great lakes get ugly quick. Not towering 20 footers, but the chop gets nasty and at short intervals so boats can take a pounding.
My requirements:
Standing headroom - I'm 6'0 feet, but found the Ariel sufficiently tall - CD 25 cabin height is wayyyyy too short for me
Not less than 26 foot not more than 32
Somewhat shallow draft - some of the islands I want to visit have somewhat shallow anchorages
Solid Construction - I have a goal of voyaging to the Med via St. Lawrence and Atlantic Crossing. I'd rather get something straight away that is capable of the passage.
This month's GOB mag talks about the Columbia 9.6, Seafarer 31, and one other one that escapes me at the moment.
I'm just trying to get a fix on what are cheaply made boats and which ones are more solid among the more modern designed boats.
Irwin, Ericson, and Cals I come across often. I know tartans have a decent reputation but most that I have found have deck problems... or have been otherwise neglected.. probably the case with most.. but I just want to know what to rule out or what is worth looking for the rare exception that someone has taken good care of...
For example, I know Hunters and Catalinas are not boats that were built to stand up to anything to rigorous
One of these days you guys are going to snap on me and just say.. "Dude buy a boat already!!!!!!"
I find every time I go to look at one that I feel really good about I get really anxious and nervous about that one thing I'm uncertain about.. and what could be waiting to go up for sale...
I've been through at least 15 boats now and none have yet stirred me to the point of saying this is the one... except those i cannot afford... :)
Chris,
How about, have you looked at, a Nor'Sea 27? More than capable of doing the lake, crossing oceans or even circumnavigating the globe, yet can be dropped on a trailer and towed by a truck (OK a largeish truck) to the next cruising site.
EASY to single hand, can sleet 4, very cufy for 2 (having lived aboard for years).
Greg
See our web site ( www.svguenevere.com )for LOTS of info and photos......
(http://www.svguenevere.com/photos/a04.jpg)
Quote from: mkeChris on October 14, 2009, 12:06:26 PM
One of these days you guys are going to snap on me and just say.. "Dude buy a boat already!!!!!!"
I find every time I go to look at one that I feel really good about I get really anxious and nervous about that one thing I'm uncertain about.. and what could be waiting to go up for sale...
I've been through at least 15 boats now and none have yet stirred me to the point of saying this is the one... except those i cannot afford... :)
Dude! just buy a boat already! ;) I need some one I can crew for. ;D
Also what is your budget?
I'd second Pablo. Exactly how much are you willing to spend? That seems to be the clincher on you ocean going yacht. Now seems to be a good time to spend, as I have seen a number of good hulls going for less than 20k. Also Chris- how much time are you willing to put into her? Redoing a boat is not that hard, but it does take lots of afternoons and weekends.
Looking to stay around 12K or less...
Not looking to do a ton of work. I don't mind cleanup... don't really feel like deck prep and paint.
What I'm wondering mostly is:
What are some common boats out there.. of newer design that are well built?
I see a lot of Irwins and Ericsons... Some have the protected rudder ala skeg, particularly Cals, which is a definite plus.
But are these boats well built? I think the Cals have a good reputation... but they are not as plentiful as the Irwins and Ericsons...
Let me be blunt -
1. What do you want to do with the boat?
The boats that you have listed are good Racer/Cruisers/Coastal. I see them a lot. If you are going to spend a lot of time at anchor or going in a straight line then a full keel is much easier on you.
2. What is your budget? 2 people can voyage for $ 1500 per month. $ 500 is tight and is being done. Getting a boat ready can really cost. Smaller is much cheeper. A 36 vrs a 26, the 26 is about 1/2. Also the bigger the boat the heaver every thing is. My anchor is 18 pounds, People on 38's biggest are over 50 pounds. I suggest that you take your overall cash and work it backwards to find your final cost of your boat. The final cost of your boat is hard to say until finished. Depending on condition, you will spend 2x to 9x the buying price to fix it up. Don't listen to the brags, far to many boats are sitting in ports waiting on parts that nobody has money for or just waiting.
Find some cost of people who have made the LOOOONG trip and see what repairs they have and what total boat cost.
Finally, A boat is not a house. You need to be able to handle the differances and make your boat work for you.
With that said, I do not think that you will easily find a safe boat for $ 12K or less for your area. It is possible, You will have to go to every boat storage for 100's of miles around and ask and put add's in.
I hope you know what you are looking for.
Fair winds.
Lynx,
To answer #1, ultimately what I want to do is some cruising in the summer months in the Great Lakes, and eventually (maybe 10 years from now) take a sabbatical from work and go to the Med. I don't know how realistic that is, but I'm starting out with the more realistic cruises to the North Channel or Apostles.
Budget is not really an issue in the near term as my cruises will be 2 to 3 weeks in duration.
As far as a boat not being a house, I recognize there are differences and am just as happy on my throne at home as I would be squatting over a bucket, if that's the kind of thing you are referring to.
I guess what I'm after is are the boats I've mentioned in the same league as the Hunters and Catalinas where a fall of the crest of a good sized wave is likely to make the floorboards come up and the hull to deck joints separate and leak. This year I put an Ensign into a seawall in some nasty stuff and it held up to a good 3 or 4 minutes of pounding against a huge steel wall...
If an old Pearson is what I need for this kind of construction quality than that's what I'll get. I did fall in love with an Ariel and was sooo close to buying.. but I got scared by a lot of crazing in the deck gelcoat and a generally old appearance. If she's still around in spring, that may be what I go after.. but I'm just trying to find out more about these other boats. Beth Leonard wrote in the Voyager's Handbook that the skeg hung designed boats can be pretty good for voyaging. I'm not sure that THESE were the boats to which she was referring...
Who knows.. I'm driving myself, my wife, and I'm sure of few of you all a little batty with the boat shopping. I tend to be a little obsessive when researching...
Cool
Skeg rudders are good for fast turns, Full keels will track better in the waves but will not turn as fast. The Sharp and steep waves the Great Lakes can produce I do not know much about.
I looked for over 3 years before I bought my boat. Nice winter project.
Just my opinion, but trying decide between a hull/rudder combo, at our size boats, really doesn't buy you much. If I was in your shoes, I would be more concerned about amenities and build quality. If your sure your going to have the same boat for your med trip you get now, then why rush it? Take your time, maybe get a bit more in your budget and get something of a better quality?
As for the 3 you listed, I think GOB had an article not log back about a couple that circumnavigated with 2 kids on a cal 25? My memory is a bit fuzzy on it, but I remember reading some article on it. The Ericson and Irwin's that I have seen, seem to be about the run/quality of a Catalina and Hunter. They are great boats for quick little weekend jaunts, but nothing I would want to take far offshore. As someone said before though, you could sail a bathtub around the world if you wanted.
Not sure what your selection is like in that area, but it sounds to me like your chomping at the bit to get something now that you've gotten sign off from the wife. You've been patient for as long as I've been a member of the forums, whats wrong with waiting a bit longer to make sure you get exactly what you want? So many great boats to choose from in your range. Given time, willingness and tenacity in your search. As been said before, if your really set on a trailer sailor, there is the Nor'Sea, I just posted a great little Nordica in the SellFar that I saw just cruising around web sites. Flickas come to mind, your beloved Pearsons, Compacs, Albin Vega/Contessa, the list goes on. All can be trailered, all have great abilities, all can be had for under 20k if you have the patience and keep looking every day.
Hope it helps, I'm excited for you, I can't wait to see you finally be skipper of your own ship, but, time (and right now market) is on your side!! ;D
Quote from: nowell on October 15, 2009, 08:08:57 AM
Just my opinion, but trying decide between a hull/rudder combo, at our size boats, really doesn't buy you much. If I was in your shoes, I would be more concerned about amenities and build quality.
Yeah, that's actually what I'm trying to do, is look for solidly constructed boats regardless of the hull/rudder configuration. I'm just trying to get opinions on what are well constructed boats and which are more just fun weekend type boats. Your opinions on Irwins and Ericsons are appreciated. It is what I expected. I have found that the most readily available boats on the market are those that are not generally of quality construction...
I am chomping at the bit a "bit". Torn between a number of philosophies and constraints. I have a tendency to obsess and seek out the perfect one, financial constraints, and my wife wanting to get something that doesn't need a ton of work, or any at all where possible.
In the end I don't think I'll buy something that doesn't meet my needs though. I just want a sturdy boat that doesn't need a ton of work that has standing headroom, a standard layout (no starboard galleys or center cockpits), and a reasonably shallow draft. Who would've thought that would be so hard to find!
Thanks for the encouragement! I hope to be skipper of my own money pit soon!!!
Mike, you look like you are going down the right path except for one thing. You have to be willing to work on your boat. If you hope for a 30 footer for 12k, plan on working on the boat a lot. Thats just the nature of the beast. And it can be fun- what else are you going to do during the winter?;)
But really, if you have cruising dreams, it will involve repair and maintenance. Might as well learn it early.
I guess what I mean when i say I don't want to work on it I mean that I want to be able to sail it when I buy it and I don't want something that my wife is going to look at and tell me she won't sail on it because the decks are all crazed, leaking, and look like poop and the cabin is a rat's nest.
I've been through a lot of 60's and 70's boats and I know there aren't any that are going to shine like new. Any boat I buy is going to need work... I just want something I can sail when I buy it and is in reasonably good shape. Awhile back I posted some pics of a 65 commander i went through... that was too much work. I went through and sailed a 77 CD 25 last weekend and it was more than fine condition wise. It needed some bottom paint, but the decks were decent and the boat was in sailable condition. That's all I'm really looking for.
I understand there is a ton of work to be done to prepare for an extended offshore voyage... I'm not looking for something that is ready to go across the Atlantic today.. I'm looking for something I can sail in the Great lakes that my wife isn't going to hate and that is of a sound enough construction to handle the rigors of the ocean with the proper outfitting and preparatory work...
All I was really wondering is are there any other boats beside those traditional full keelers that are well built and still fall in the same price range as the old pearsons, cape dories, Bristols, etc...
Appreciate all your input
Can you descfibe what kind of seas you will be getting into and have to fight your way back home? How long?
Thanks.
I'll take your meaning to be upon the purchase of a boat what will I have to sail it through to get her home?
I'm in Lake Michigan. I'd prefer to find something within 200 miles to sail home.. but we'll see what happens. Lake Michigan can be rough at times... I can't say relative to any oceans as Lake Michigan is the only place I've sailed. I've been out in 6-8 footers. I've heard and seen photos of them getting up to 15 feet, but that is relatively rare I think. Generally the Lake doesn't throw anything larger than 6 feet at us.. unless you are on the East shore where I think they can get a little bigger... Lots of sand shoals in the Northern regions. No tides... noticeable ones at least...
Thanks, Any boat you have mentioned will handle that if in good shape. I do not htink that you can steer into that kind of wind and seas for 200 miles singlehanded. I have handled those kind of seas in my boat but I have an auto pilot and I do not have enough fuel for 200 miles in those concitions.
3 people on a boat for a week is fun. Any boat will be close spaces. The smaller and lighter will be rougher. The bigger and heaver will be more expensive and harder to handle because of the increased size, A little late in the season, but I suggest that you try to handle the sails in a blow by yourself and up the anchor in a blow by yourself on the bigger boat your wife to. When I crossed to the Bahamas the wind and seas was to rough for my buddy boat's wife to sear more than 1/2 hr in the 10 hr crossing.
A 26 footer will do you well for a week or 2. Most of the time you will be above deck or below sleeping. A grill on the rail is keeps you from cooking below.
I have meet people who dbought a boat and sailed in the the Great lakes for several years and then took their boat down the Erie Canal or the Missippi to voyage in the Bahamas and beyond. Please keep that in mind when looking. A keel of around 4 feet is best for Florida and Bahamas.
Really take a look at the money and don't take the hype of a used boat does not need any repairs.
Lol-a 26 footer willdo for a couple of weeks? Laura has been aboard our 25 footer for over 3 months now and I've been with her for 2 1/2months. We've done 1200 miles so far-grin
As for the sailing into 6 - 8 foot seas- I quite agree. We once spent a whole day beating into 6 footer and 15 to 20 knot winds. Made 38 miles and lost 8 towards
our destination. Small boats just really don't do well
against head seas.
CJ...gotta agree with ya again.Judy spent a month on the flicka @ 20ft. Still her favorite boat by far and we've owned a 34 previously. Once the Ariel is complete in a few years, we hope to do some very serious time away.Mind you...I think an 800 ft house is ideal :o
Oh we are playing lowball here! ;D
Last year after Mary and I spent 2 weeks on our 18' 6" Potter we BOTH said we were ready for another couple.
"Gentlemen do not sail to weather". ;D
Two adults AND an 80# lab for 9 months...
...and all I can think about it getting BACK out there. !
Quote from: Lynx on October 16, 2009, 06:20:11 AM
Thanks, Any boat you have mentioned will handle that if in good shape. I do not htink that you can steer into that kind of wind and seas for 200 miles singlehanded. I have handled those kind of seas in my boat but I have an auto pilot and I do not have enough fuel for 200 miles in those concitions.
3 people on a boat for a week is fun. Any boat will be close spaces. The smaller and lighter will be rougher. The bigger and heaver will be more expensive and harder to handle because of the increased size, A little late in the season, but I suggest that you try to handle the sails in a blow by yourself and up the anchor in a blow by yourself on the bigger boat your wife to. When I crossed to the Bahamas the wind and seas was to rough for my buddy boat's wife to sear more than 1/2 hr in the 10 hr crossing.
Wherever from and whatever I sail home with, I'll be bringing one or two friends along for the return trip. One guy in particular has a lot of experience and so I'll bring him along as I know there are plenty of things I haven't yet run into. Literally... :)
What I've found in my reading, and from at least one of the replies here is that Irwins and Ericsons are not boats built to high-quality construction standards...
To Summarize boats of sound construction then:
Cals and Tartans are a maybe among the more modern designs and of course all those so frequently discussed on the forum here...
There is 2 books to read.
20 small boats that you can take any where
20 - 30 foot boats (or something like that) you can take anywhere.
The problem that you will run into is yo do not know what has happened to the boat and you do not want to replace everythiing.
Have fun.
Check out the Grampian's. They got a really good review, a decent following, lots of space in the cabin, 6' headroom, and they are pretty reasonable price wise. GOB did a review on them not long ago, and they were listed as a capable pocket cruiser. Also Canadian built, so I would imagine a decent ammount up in your neck of the woods.
Nowell...good call. They are great bang for the buck. Lots of headroom and a huge cockpit. They are setup nice for OB's as well. There are a 3 of them locally.Seem to be standing the test of time pretty well. A bit dated looking but a lotta boat for $5-$6000.
Quote from: Frank on October 19, 2009, 08:01:37 PM
Nowell...good call. They are great bang for the buck. Lots of headroom and a huge cockpit. They are setup nice for OB's as well. There are a 3 of them locally.Seem to be standing the test of time pretty well. A bit dated looking but a lotta boat for $5-$6000.
Nice! I recall they had a decent production run, so I would imagine you could even get a bit competitive on those prices! I think its still a sharp looking boat, with a bit of 'spit n polish' I bet it could have a very nice classic boat look! Didn't they also have a swing keel version, or something along those lines?
Cool -- this is just the kind of information I was looking for. There are so many manufacturers out there and it's hard to know the run of the mill slapped together boats from the quality built ones.
Here's a nice looking Gramp 30 from my hometown.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Grampian-30-2114911/Green-Bay/WI/United-States
Can't tell from the pics but it looks like a standard spade rudder.
I'll have to find the review on these boats from GOB.
Thanks nowell!
Setup to go see a Bristol 29 next week. Want to get aboard before the decks freeze! Dinette layout which I'm not crazy about but all the other aspects are enough to tempt me to drive 2 hours to see her.
I'm actually getting a little sick of looking at these things... Last week took out a CD 25 for a test sail... The PO was a heck of a nice guy and the boat was in nice shape, but the 25 is just way too cramped for me and the sails and outboard were original (over 30 years old)... Surprised at how light the standing rigging was. The spreaders looked like they were just being held in place by the shrouds and not securely fastened to the mast... Boat sailed beautifully in some strong winds and confused seas coming off a nearby seawall.
Nice find. Im honestly torn between the inboard and outboard. As you know I have mine pulled from my Vega. Im still contemplating a Beta replacement, but there are so many pros and cons between that and the OB I currently have. Not going to get into that here. Grampian makes some in the sub 30 foot range that I actually like how they do the outboard placement. Thats a nice looking 30 tho for sure! I mean, look at that cockpit! Talk about great for entertainment!
Anyway, im getting side tracked. Another one you might want to consider (that I actually tried looking for for awhile) is the Eastward Ho. Again, this is fuzzy memory from reading somewhere, but they were New England produced boat I think? Akin to the Dana 24, Flicka, etc, nice wide beam, very solid. Won't get you anywhere fast, but supposed to be a little tank. Think they were all in the 24 foot range, with a head, so would be great for single handing with the occasional companion. I think even some had a 1 or 2 horse diesel in them?
Im sure Frank will check his memory banks and throw something up! ;D
I'm not a fan of Grampians. I think they have a decent hull shape but were put together poorly. They are very cheap to buy, though.
Don't know about put together poorly (sorry not trying to start anything, just trying to understand where your coming from, or what im missing), but I would most definately take one of those to the far ends of the earth over the Irwin or Ericson asked about earlier.
I've only every been on one, and that was just at the marina, so can't say for how they sail? Maybe im missing something?
I have read that the company underwent a change in philosophy around 1970. I think it was on sailnet someone said that the 60's variety of Grampians were very well built, but after 1970 or so, they began targeting a more budget boat strategy... this might account for the diverging opinions... But, this was just another forum post on sailnet. I'll just keep goin through em and seeing what I like and don't like.
Still wish that refit Triton that sold out of Chicago last year would have come up for sale this year... that thing got snatched up in a hurry!
FWIW,
I used to crew on a wooden interior Grampian 26. It was a well made boat. I did not like the keel / rudder for a boat I would own (my preference is a full keel) but it sailed well, had a very roomy interior and was a great pocket cruiser.
I would take it over many more modern production boats.
The 26 did come in a swing keel as well.The long fin was 4ft 3in draft.They are relatively stiff boats. The OB simply attached to a cutout at the aft end of the cockpit.Very handy and on the centerline (not out of the water on the wrong tack' They were not high end boats. Sturdy built...just not fancy. I saw one about 6-7 yrs ago that had been extremely well restored and upgraded by its owner.They really do 'clean up nice'
Grampian 26
Specifications:
L.O.A.: 26' 0" (7.92 m)
L.W.L.: 21' 9" (6.93 m)
Beam: 8' 4" (2.54 m)
Draft: (fin) 4' 3" (1.29 m)
Displacement: 5600 lbs. (2540 kg.)
Ballast: 2600 lbs. (1179 kg.)
Sail area: 325 sq. ft. (30.19 m²)
Motor: usually 9.9 hp outboard.
Headroom: 6' 0" (1.83 m)
Berths: 4 to 5
Rating (PHRF-LO) : 213
Thanks everyone for all the information...
This site is a great resource for someone in my position. Hopefully next summer I'll have some posts and pics of a Great Lakes cruise or two...
Still looking for pictures when I'm up at my parents of a boat I "tried" building when I was a kid. It was as beamy as it was long, built of 2x4's and 1/2 plywood left over from the screen porch project I worked on with my dad through the spring. Never got it to the water because it weighed too much to even get up on a trailer :)
Chris,
All of this will pay off when you find 'the boat'. Thanks for letting us be a part. ;D
I built one of those boats too.
More barge like then anything, I am still amazed that my dad agreed to put it on top of the car and drive it down to the bay... there is a tidal pond on the flats below Corte Madera that she was launched in.
She had a linen sail, a big rudder (like a 4' deep teardrop) a 2x2 mast and was rigged with Jute twine. The largest weakness was the fact that her seams were caulked with window spakle... she shipped water so fast she went down nearly as fast as she went forward.... :P
She was so heavy filled with water (nothing to bail with) that I could not pull her out of the soft mud. For at least 3 years we watched as she turned up on various banks after storms. :D
After that, I settled on full keel boats. ;D
Quote from: s/v Faith on October 21, 2009, 11:30:23 AM
I built one of those boats too.
More barge like then anything, I am still amazed that my dad agreed to put it on top of the car and drive it down to the bay... there is a tidal pond on the flats below Corte Madera that she was launched in.
She had a linen sail, a big rudder (like a 4' deep teardrop) a 2x2 mast and was rigged with Jute twine. The largest weakness was the fact that her seams were caulked with window spakle... she shipped water so fast she went down nearly as fast as she went forward.... :P
She was so heavy filled with water (nothing to bail with) that I could not pull her out of the soft mud. For at least 3 years we watched as she turned up on various banks after storms. :D
After that, I settled on full keel boats. ;D
At least you got her to the water! Hilarious that you'd see her reappear... Did you name your vessel?
I had built the hull from 1/2" plywood and had no skills in bending so the hull was quite angular, much less ridiculously heavy. She was about 8' long and had to be close to 6' wide... would have made a good party barge if it weren't for the fact that it probably would not have floated.
I have been looking at that Bristol 29 myself.
This one...
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1967/Bristol-Herrshoff-29-1947190/Door-County/WI/United-States
and this one
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/Bristol-29-2094522/Manitowoc/WI/United-States
Which one did you look at and how did she fare?
Still less of a likelyhood as transport is still prohibitive but they both seem well maintained and well priced.
We have until Feb/Mch before we start having Surveys done and start bidding and those are both possibilities if I can work out some way to transport that fits our budget.
Let me know what you gleaned from your visit, that is if you're no longer interested in it, don't want to end up in a bidding war and drive up cost for you.
I haven't gone to look yet. I'm heading up to Manitowoc on Monday to go see the '70. We shall see!
Sellers are kind of at bay right now with winter storage, so it gives us time to scour :)
FWIW, the first "big" boat that I ever sailed on was a Bristol 29. I was between jobs (like now, only back in the 1970s), and I crewed for a friend of my parents. We took a couple of fairly long cruises and ran into some nasty weather.
I really liked the boat.
Good luck.
--Joe
I'll bring the camera along for this one. The wife has been accompanying me on most of my trips, but she's ducking out of this one. I'll post a couple pics...