Fact: most of us aren't going to cross oceans
Fact: most of us that escape winter will head to Florida and/or Bahamas
Fact: shoal draft is king in both those cruising grounds
Fact: most 23-25 foot boats can easiily do it with a good forecast
So, with that in mind, what would be your ideal Bahama boat?
Big enough to comfortably spend winter on, yet small enough to tuck into secluded anchorages when fronts blow though..
I'm thinking sub 3ft draft, either fixed shoal keel or keel/centreboard.
Several come to mind
What are your thoughts?
I was quite satisfied with my Tehani- 25 feet, full keel, stand up headroom, 3'6" draft. Never had a problem all through Bimini, Nassau, Berry's, Exuma's, Eleuthera, Florida Keys
Wouldn't want much bigger.
CJ.....you know a lotta boats...
If looking for sub 3ft draft, yet decent room, what would you consider
Kinda hard to say. The Compac's look good. Really haven't paid much attention to that sort of boat. Jim_Me is looking for something he can trailer-Maybe he has some other thoughts. We'll both be on the chat tonight, or should be
Full-time rest of your life liveaboard, or seasonal few months of the year snowbird kinda person?
That's a big Q.
Solo, or a couple?
Another. :)
If solo, then my Ariel fits the bill, and I think she'd do alright with longer wanderings if it came to it. Gotta be super careful about your "stuff" though, and keep that list short.
But for a couple, something a bit bigger, maybe 30-32', and probably so with a swing keel, to be able to sneak in close but drop the board for offshore passage making, I think would be ideal. More space for, well, when that more space that is needed from time to time, by the individuals aboard.
Unless you are one of those novel-inspiring "we never fight" kind of couples. ?
They are real, right? :)
Quote from: CapnK on April 04, 2019, 08:53:15 PM
Full-time rest of your life liveaboard, or seasonal few months of the year snowbird kinda person? Probably seasonal. maybe a year away, then home
That's a big Q.
Solo, or a couple? Solo if I must,but as a couple iss much nicer- you have someone to share neat experiences with
Another. :)
If solo, then my Ariel fits the bill, and I think she'd do alright with longer wanderings if it came to it. Gotta be super careful about your "stuff" though, and keep that list short.
But for a couple, something a bit bigger, maybe 30-32', and probably so with a swing keel, to be able to sneak in close but drop the board for offshore passage making, I think would be ideal. More space for, well, when that more space that is needed from time to time, by the individuals aboard.
Did 2 1/2 years as a couple on a 25 footer. Did run into space problems with cold season clothes and warm blankets.
.
Unless you are one of those novel-inspiring "we never fight" kind of couples. ?
They are real, right? :) was for me, til it ended
Capt K....
solo or couple
3-4 month cruises
But...Not 3ft 8in draft...
SUB 3ft
2ft-2ft 10in range
Shoal keel or better sailing keel-centerboard
Standing headroom...or close
Boats?
We (wife and I) lived and cruised on our Bolger Jessie Cooper full time for over four years in Europe quite comfortably and got into a lot of places others could not with it's one foot draft. All in all maybe my favorite Bolger design. A bit more about it here https://boatbits.blogspot.com/2009/12/jessie-cooper-why-first-loose-moose.html
Bob
That's an interesting boat!
How was the interior laid out?
Might i suggest a look at the Watkins 25. It has a a Shoal keel version thats draft is under 3ft IIRC it has decent headroom and is roomier than many others....
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/watkins-25
A few of the Westerly boat with twin keels will keep you under 3'
and my personal ugly duckling favorite the Irwin 10/4
Absolutely the most room you will find in a 24" boat, whether it will sail or nots another question ;D
i did read an article about a guy taking one to Hawaii thought... so it may be more than it looks.
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/irwin-104
The Irwin certainly is roomy!
Crazy....a 10ft 4in beam on a 25.
Lots of sail area too
;D Come Join the Irwin 10/4 cult ;D
But in all honesty i would like to take a sail on one and see what its like....
I've been on one of those Irwins - it is indeed a crazy amount of room for the LOA. Shrink that beam just a bit in the waist, and carry all that width back thru the stern, and you have a Beneteau First 25.7 from the mid 2000's - 2.75m, just a smidge over 9' of beam...
(..and about as desirable, to me. ;) )
Best have a good dentist if you wanna sail fast in heavy chop. :D
Multihulls are the cat's meow for shallow draft, not to mention the fact that they do not get into that wild swaying action in a swell at anchor, and offer lots of space topside.... either a trimaran or a catamaran, not to mention the fact that you can beach them at low tide, often even in areas with a relatively small tidal range.
H.W.
"they do not get into that wild swaying action in a swell at anchor"
well, that depends on how they are anchored. I ALWAYS used a bridle from the ama bows
And one more thing- you would not believe how rough a ride you get in zero wind,, motoring across left over chop!! Makes it very hard to move around.
of course, a mono hull would be rolling hard in that :)
If I was just hanging in the Bahamas/Caribbean and was set on super shallow draft, I think I would try to build myself a Wharram. They always interested me. Plenty of room to hang outside. The smaller one's are a bit small inside.
Wharrams are popular. But small inside til you get up above 35 feet. I seriously considered one before I built my cross 35. Talked to cross once, mentioned Wharrams. He said- fine oats if you like living in a sewer pipe. After I visied some folks on a 34 I saw what he meant.
But to the best of my knowledge, one has NEVER been lost at sea. Of course I've been out of the multihull world since 1985.
Had a BIG cat in the marina here this week - too big for ICW work (air draft). Offshore they were power-sail surfing along in I don't know how large of seas (but it has not been snotty here), when they surfed off of a wave large or fast enough that they stuffed both bows into the wave ahead deep enough that it not only stopped them but then shot out them *backwards* with sufficient force to kill the engine on 'landing'.
I bet that was a big surprise. :) But I know it can happen; I've done it on small cats.
Engine would not turn over on an attempted restart, so they came in on their second to get it checked out. Mechanics opinion is that the engine is basically hydro-locked with water forced up into the block from their backwards landing. Headed to Annapolis, they have gone on with just the one motor as most of the rest of the way can be done offshore and under sail.
I really like the Com-Pac 23 Pilothouse, has everything I need, fully enclosed head and inside steering as a bonus. I also strongly prefer boats with an inboard if I'm motoring for any length of time. I used to think, before I did any real sailing, that I'd be one of those "sail all the time in any wind" types but not so.
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 12, 2019, 09:34:10 PM
Wharrams are popular. But small inside til you get up above 35 feet. I seriously considered one before I built my cross 35. Talked to cross once, mentioned Wharrams. He said- fine oats if you like living in a sewer pipe. After I visied some folks on a 34 I saw what he meant.
But to the best of my knowledge, one has NEVER been lost at sea. Of course I've been out of the multihull world since 1985.
I'm not a Wharram fan... they have too many liabilities. The flexible beam system means you cannot integrate the hulls with a bridge deck cabin, and that is what makes a cat roomy and liveable. In a large Wharram, your hull spaces are generally deep in the hulls.... so deep that the bridge deck is at chin level instead of being at countertop level as on some other designs where the workspace in the galley and the opposite hull utilizes part of the bridge deck as extended counter or places for appliances or stowage. It also means more steps to climb up out of the hulls, and it means that the hulls when the hatches are open are exposed to weather.... And that you must pass outside from hull to hull or to the bridge deck cabin. In addition the double ender design means more hobby horsing, and constricts useable space in the aft ends of the hulls.... transom sterns offer more useable space aft, where berths are best placed, and allow more of the boat to be wider in the living area for the same length. They also change the fore and aft profile relationship in such a way that they often dampen out pitching / hobbyhorsing. There are many designs that are far better suited for cruising. I personally like the work of Richard Woods, Bernd Kohler, and a number of other modern designers.... (home built designs) Richard Woods on one of his early designs (Mira) , did what James Wharram should have done, which was to design the hulls with a "wing", much like a trimaran, giving a great deal of open space in the hulls, while still retaining the open deck... the "wing" functions as seating on deck, and gives hull space of 8' across in the saloon.... and unlike comparable Wharrams, there is only about 30" to climb from hull to deck rather than 50+ in a comparable wharram. These are major livability improvements... the open feel & 2 less steps each time you climb out of a hull, may seem minor, but in reality they hugely impact comfort and fatigue, and mental stress. I particularly like the simplicity and other benefits Bernd Kohler has incorporated into his 28 foot KD 860, with it's flat bottom hull, which has very shallow draft, and excellent payload for it's size, though it is too small for my purposes, and used forward berths on the bridge deck which I do not like, and which also reduces saloon size, and eliminates forward view. I also like Richard Woods 30' Sagitta.... He uses and unnecessarily complex round bottom chined cedar strip hull, but the layout in general is far superior, though the shape is not so elegant.... and daggers are a nuisance that could be improved IMHO by placing leeway boards that can kick back on the inboard side of each hull instead. Personally I would like foam sandwich construction for insulation and sound deadening, and reduced weight.
Another designer, for whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration because of his incredibly innovative outside the box thinking is Rob Denny, with his HarryProa designs. Easy construction, light weight, and his greatest innovation being placing the mast(s) in one longer hull, and the people & cabin in the opposite hull for the most part..... this results in the only truly stable and safe proa layout for voyaging IMHO. The cabin is always to windward except dead downwind, and it provides a lot of open deck, and good visibility in all the directions that usually matter. They do lack the space I want, until you get into a truly huge boat. It shunts rather than tacking, and has multiple rudders that are kick back and also raise and lower, and can double as a leeway device / dagger. Access to the mast is easy, and the aerorig makes for simple sailing, and the free standing mast(s) eliminate all that troublesome standing rigging to maintain. There is a lot to like in Rob's thinking.
That said, Wharram designs are solidly reliable and seaworthy, and he has refrained from designing with a lot of windage like many of the small cats that will not sail to windward in spite of having daggers due to large bridge deck cabins. He has also used slatted decks.... which is probably good, and his designs provide a lot of deck area, which is nice in the tropics, but only seasonally comfortable where most of us live. Wharrams are made for outdoor living in a comfortable climate.
There are plenty of other excellent designs.... Roger Simpson did some excellent designs, Schionning, etc..... Wharrams tend to be inexpensive and plentyful.... Their main virtues.
H.W.
Quote from: Owly055 on April 26, 2019, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: CharlieJ on April 12, 2019, 09:34:10 PM
Wharrams are popular. But small inside til you get up above 35 feet. I seriously considered one before I built my cross 35. Talked to cross once, mentioned Wharrams. He said- fine oats if you like living in a sewer pipe. After I visied some folks on a 34 I saw what he meant.
But to the best of my knowledge, one has NEVER been lost at sea. Of course I've been out of the multihull world since 1985.
I'm not a Wharram fan... they have too many liabilities. The flexible beam system means you cannot integrate the hulls with a bridge deck cabin, and that is what makes a cat roomy and liveable. In a large Wharram, your hull spaces are generally deep in the hulls.... so deep that the bridge deck is at chin level instead of being at countertop level as on some other designs where the workspace in the galley and the opposite hull utilizes part of the bridge deck as extended counter or places for appliances or stowage. It also means more steps to climb up out of the hulls, and it means that the hulls when the hatches are open are exposed to weather.... And that you must pass outside from hull to hull or to the bridge deck cabin. In addition the double ender design means more hobby horsing, and constricts useable space in the aft ends of the hulls.... transom sterns offer more useable space aft, where berths are best placed, and allow more of the boat to be wider in the living area for the same length. They also change the fore and aft profile relationship in such a way that they often dampen out pitching / hobbyhorsing. There are many designs that are far better suited for cruising. I personally like the work of Richard Woods, Bernd Kohler, and a number of other modern designers.... (home built designs) Richard Woods on one of his early designs (Mira) , did what James Wharram should have done, which was to design the hulls with a "wing", much like a trimaran, giving a great deal of open space in the hulls, while still retaining the open deck... the "wing" functions as seating on deck, and gives hull space of 8' across in the saloon.... and unlike comparable Wharrams, there is only about 30" to climb from hull to deck rather than 50+ in a comparable wharram. These are major livability improvements... the open feel & 2 less steps each time you climb out of a hull, may seem minor, but in reality they hugely impact comfort and fatigue, and mental stress. I particularly like the simplicity and other benefits Bernd Kohler has incorporated into his 28 foot KD 860, with it's flat bottom hull, which has very shallow draft, and excellent payload for it's size, though it is too small for my purposes, and used forward berths on the bridge deck which I do not like, and which also reduces saloon size, and eliminates forward view. I also like Richard Woods 30' Sagitta.... He uses and unnecessarily complex round bottom chined cedar strip hull, but the layout in general is far superior, though the shape is not so elegant.... and daggers are a nuisance that could be improved IMHO by placing leeway boards that can kick back on the inboard side of each hull instead. Personally I would like foam sandwich construction for insulation and sound deadening, and reduced weight.
Another designer, for whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration because of his incredibly innovative outside the box thinking is Rob Denny, with his HarryProa designs. Easy construction, light weight, and his greatest innovation being placing the mast(s) in one longer hull, and the people & cabin in the opposite hull for the most part..... this results in the only truly stable and safe proa layout for voyaging IMHO. The cabin is always to windward except dead downwind, and it provides a lot of open deck, and good visibility in all the directions that usually matter. They do lack the space I want, until you get into a truly huge boat. It shunts rather than tacking, and has multiple rudders that are kick back and also raise and lower, and can double as a leeway device / dagger. Access to the mast is easy, and the aerorig makes for simple sailing, and the free standing mast(s) eliminate all that troublesome standing rigging to maintain. There is a lot to like in Rob's thinking.
That said, Wharram designs are solidly reliable and seaworthy, and he has refrained from designing with a lot of windage like many of the small cats that will not sail to windward in spite of having daggers due to large bridge deck cabins. He has also used slatted decks.... which is probably good, and his designs provide a lot of deck area, which is nice in the tropics, but only seasonally comfortable where most of us live. Wharrams are made for outdoor living in a comfortable climate.
There are plenty of other excellent designs.... Roger Simpson did some excellent designs, Schionning, etc..... Wharrams tend to be inexpensive and plentyful.... Their main virtues.
H.W.
CJ
Having actually cruised many miles on them, What do you think of cats in rough water?
I've only sailed aboard one Wharram, but it was pretty neat. The flexible lashing on the cross arms gave a nice motion. His boats have a serious safety record offshore- several smaller ones ( in the 20+ foot range) have circumnavigated single handed. I have personally never heard of a Wharram being lost at sea. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, I just haven't heard
Look up his first book- "two girls, two catamarans" His tale of crossing the Atlantic with Ruth and Juta. Boat name was Tangaroa. That was a self built boat. They built a larger one in the west Indies and sailed her back- boat was named Rongo . Wharram lived most of his life (still may) with two women- different ones at times. Quite a character
The only reason I chose my tri rather than a Wharram 36 was space for three. I had a young son. and planned to live aboard- which i did for several years
Single hand? If I were looking today, I'd give serious consideration to a Wharram in the 30 foot range
One point about the lashing on the cross arms- lets you disassemble the bot for travel
More-
I happen to have the study plans for Woods Saggita. Had all intentions of building one when the build site fell through. Spent a very interesting weekend visiting with Richard and his wife in Port Aranasas a few years ago on their power catamaran. Serious sailor- lots of catamaran miles.
I also met Jim Brown back in the late 90's at the last EYA meeting in St Petersburg. Very knowledgeable guy. Sent some pictures to Joanna of Jim with a Simple Sib mock up hull over his head. Told her many guys got drunk and put lampshades on, Jim stayed sober and used boat hulls :) She got a kick out of that :)
Nowadays, at my age, I'm very satisfied with my 25 and 21 footers :)
CJ...
How are multi's out in bigger waves?
Say...10+ fters
Depends on the boat I suppose- I had my tri in 20+ foot seas coming out of Key West, but they weren't breaking- was a pretty smooth ride. Also logged 14 knots for over two hours coming down the Chesapeake running DDW from a storm front-looking for a secure anchorage. Found it too- Mill creek on the Wicomico :)
Other than that, I always tried to stay somewhere nicer- had family aboard remember
In Brown's book "case for the cruising Trimaran" he has some scary pics taken from other boats of his Scrimshaw in BIG seas
The only really bad part of a tri that I found was motoring in a flat calm, with left over chop hitting right on th e beam- the motion then is horrible !!
Picture of my tri, taken from another tri, in the open Atlantic
I've seen a Stiletto 27 cat with a bimini, which means you could build/have built an enclosure for the deck area aft of the mast and between the hulls - it wouldn't be stand-up tall, but would allow you out of the hull in inclement weather.
9" draft board up, a 15hp outboard motor, and speeds up into the high teens and even 20's under sail...