Like most here I dream about boats a lot.....Vicky thinks "TOO MUCH". There has been talks at various times about what constitutes a good boat. That varies by individual needs. The majic is "the smallest-simplest boat that fills your needs"
I can do a quick list as it pertains to myself:
Shallow draft (under 4ft)
traditional looks
Private head (floor drain for shower)(aft if possible)
good ventalation
good-well insulated ice box (or fridge)
2 settee's so each can lounge and read on rain days
standing headroom
cutter rig would be nice
bulworks (sp?) if possible
heavy-off shore design
The topic of boats came up during Craig's visit (surprise) and the Dana got mentioned. OK..I know they are rudely expensive but they have it all in 24 feet!! I can't think of a smaller boat that would do better. Video here http://www.seacraft.com/newyachts/dana24.html
Thoughts????
I always recommend 30-32 feet for a couple. That's big enough to be comfortable, small enough to be easy to handle and maintain. The 30 footer will be more comfortable offshore than the 24 and will usually be faster too. Plus, there are a lot more comfortable, seaworthy 30 footers to choose from than there are 24 footers, meaning you will be able to find one at a price you can afford.
A few years ago, my wife and I re-fit a Cheoy Lee 31 ketch. We cruised for several months down the Tenn-Tom and then straight across to Key West, and up the coast,(mostly outside) to Maine. The CL31 has a 3'10" draft, looks great, 6'2" headroom, 2 settees, and is comfortable and capable offshore. Some don't like a mast in the cockpit, but my wife loved having something to grab onto when tacking or rough weather. The mizzen mast also makes a great place to hang the shower bag :D The smaller sail area of the individual sails on the ketch rig, made sail handling and balancing the rig easy.
Storage and living space were much better than our Bristol 24. Comfort motion was also much better. I never got sea sick at all on the Cheoy Lee. With my B24, I was always queasy when offshore. We averaged about 5kns under sail on offshore passages, except our 500 mile Gulf crossing, when we were becalmed 2 days. Our best 24 hours was 160 miles( gulf stream), sailing jib and mizzen. We spent some time in the ICW, and only touched bottom once, with our shallow draft.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5008/5223405567_4023ca5931_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/5223405567/)
Clarity2010 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/5223405567/) by okawbow (http://www.flickr.com/people/20524843@N03/), on Flickr
We got lots of compliments on the boat. After cruising Maine, we had to sell the boat there and return home to work. We had no trouble selling quickly for the money we had invested.
Kettlewell...There are more 30's than 24's for sure....and yes....most likely more comfortable at sea. But look at the Dana's specs....8000lbs for a 24 is NOT typical. I had a bad crossing aboard my Flicka 20fter on 07. I was passed by a 40 and admit to wishing for more speed but I was very safe, secure and comfortable on 20ft ! So...I respectfully dissagree. I honestly think the design and layout of the Dana would keep a couple happy.
Disclaimer: This is being pecked out by a guy that spent over 3mths aboard a ComPac 23 with my wife and 77lb Golden retreiver from the Keys across the stream and through the Abacos and back. The Dana would seem like down right luxury!!!
The Dana is a nice boat for sure, but there are inherent advantages in waterline length for comfort, speed, and sailing ability. An 8000-lb 30 footer is going to sail better and have better motion than an 8000-lb 24 footer. But, if the Dana is the boat that fits what you want, that is all that matters.
Frank,
I don't know if you have seen this or not. It is a blog by a couple that took their Dana 24 across the Pacific, from Vancouver to New Zealand: http://karenandjimsexcellentadventure.blogspot.com/
I thought it was a good read. :)
Great link!! Thanks and "grog to ya" ;)
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 23, 2014, 11:57:00 AM
The Dana is a nice boat for sure, but there are inherent advantages in waterline length for comfort, speed, and sailing ability. An 8000-lb 30 footer is going to sail better and have better motion than an 8000-lb 24 footer. But, if the Dana is the boat that fits what you want, that is all that matters.
I'm not saying a Dana is the only boat.....the nature of the thread is dreaming about what boat would be the smallest and still work. To me the biggest loss going small is speed. The extra 1/2 knot plus sure adds up over a long day!!!
As I've pointed out before- the size of the people makes a HUGE difference . Me at 5'8, 165 pounds and my ex at 5'2, 110 pounds would fit nicely in a boat that would be a shoehorn fit for a couple of 6 + footers. So that HAS to be a big part of the consideration.
Hey- Lin and Larry Pardey circumnavigated in a 24 foot boat. Of course Larry is 5'2 and Lin is 4' 10. :)
Another part of the equations is- are you going to live aboard, totally, full time? Or are you going to maintain a shore base, and keep some stuff there? As an example, my 35 foot trimaran, with aft cabin, was very comfortable for myself, a wife and teenaged son as a full time, our only place, liveaboard.
My little 25 foot Meridian would NOT suffice as a full time home- simply not enough stowage space for 4 season clothes (and bedding) for a couple, unless we just stayed in the tropics :D I alone might be able to do it, but not a couple- just not enough room
I have friends who cruise half the year aboard a PSC 25- think no standing head room- and are delighted with it. BUT they have a place to keep the other "STUFF"
Another couple I know have lived aboard a Northsea 27 for years, and years- mainly down in the Sea of Cortez, but now on the Gulf Coast. It's their home, but they can shift places, since it IS highway legal- (can't call it trailerable ;))
And we won't even get into sailing speeds- offshore it's way too variable to predict. But my 17 foot 9 inch water line averages out, over the years, to about 4.5 knots. Get used to it.. More waterline? Slightly more speed. Laws of physics :D
Here is an article on Design Ratios. Might help you in choosing a boat.
http://www.sailmagazine.com/ratios (http://www.sailmagazine.com/ratios)
Our Endeavour 32 with 4.2 foot draft 10 foot beam is all any couple would need. 3+ yrs aboard and we seem to have everything worked out.
The cost of operating and maintaining has been low, including sail replacement. We have had others with bigger boats compliment the amount of stowage area we have . With everything aboard we come in around 14,000 lbs , with that in the rough conditions the cruising has been considerably comfortable. Most of all the 1st mate likes the size, I would have been happy with my 26'er.
Having owned and cruised on a variety of boats from 17 feet to 38 feet, I think there is something that makes 30-32 feet the sweet spot for a couple. The folks we have met on boats that size always seem to be the happiest, sail the most, and seem to go the most places. With a family you need to go a bit bigger, which is why I currently have a 38 footer. We used to own a 30-foot Angus Primrose flush decker built in England and I many of her passage times are the best we have ever made because she could really sail in heavy weather. On our first sail ever on her we went 85 nautical miles in 10 hours, often pegging the 10-knot speedo we had. We found that on average, because she was such a great sailing boat, we were one of the faster boats in the cruising fleet, even including many of the 40+ footers that tended to be heavy, overladen with gear and windage, and not particularly good under sail. On the other side of the coin, she only drew 4.5 feet so we could go most places with ease, and she was inexpensive to haul and maintain. She was still big enough to allow us to carry three months of supplies when going to the Bahamas and not be overloaded. That's one huge factor in cruising capability--cargo carrying capacity. Yes displacement makes a difference, but still a 10,000 pound boat that is slightly longer will sail better and be more comfortable than a shorter boat of the same weight. That's one area where I disagree with the Pardeys. Instead of 24 feet with a huge beam, heavy weight, and a long bowsprit, go for a greater waterline length to begin with, same weight, and you would have a much more comfortable boat that would have been easier to handle too.
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM
I think there is something that makes 30-32 feet the sweet spot for a couple.
I personally disagree. Check the history of this site for many, many discussions on the merits of boats in the mid 20's for couples (and even families).
Just to add a bit more...
I do of course realize that I am cruising on a 42' boat right now.... I can not imagine hosting half a dozen folks about Faith, so as Charlie wisely says "it depends"
The Bahamas are not exactly a "super distant" destination. I can count on one hand the number of sub 25' boats I have seen cruising since I got down here in November. It has been cool to see more 25-32' boats then I have in the past... I think the message is getting out (and people can't afford the big boats like they could).
Most of the long term cruisers have at least 36-38' under them, and the majority have more. That is not intended to suggest that it can not be done on less it is just far less common.
I will sail my Ariel anywhere I ever want to go, and am very happy with her (although I am going to figure out how to shower inteh v-berth like Frank did).
Put my vote for the OP at 25-32' (35?) with the agreement with Charlie's statement that "it depends on the couple". ....
.... With exceptions for the "exceptional" boats like the Dana. I watched over one for a lady a few years ago. I used to go aboard and check the bilge and crank the motor... And just sit and bask in the sheer coolness of what Pacific Seacraft did with 24'!
Quote from: s/v Faith on March 23, 2014, 08:46:08 PM
I will sail my Ariel anywhere I ever want to go, and am very happy with her (although I am going to figure out how to shower inteh v-berth like Frank did).
Put my vote for the OP at 25-32' (35?) with the agreement with Charlie's statement that "it depends on the couple". ....
.... With exceptions for the "exceptional" boats like the Dana. I watched over one for a lady a few years ago. I used to go aboard and check the bilge and crank the motor... And just sit and bask in the sheer coolness of what Pacific Seacraft did with 24'!
And I'll keep my little 25. And she IS small, even smaller than the Ariel. But she's a heckuva sea boat.
BUT I'm NOT putting a shower below ;D
I don't know if I've posted this story here or not- but here it is again anyway.
I was tied up alongside a dock somewhere in Florida when I heard a couple coming along, chatting about the boats. They came to Tehani and I heard her say "What a pretty little daysailor"
Without going on deck I said-" Yep- and she's daysailed all the way to here from Texas"
Silence
So I poked my head out and said Hi.
Turned out to be a nice young couple, dreaming about going sailing. And until that moment had zero idea that you COULD cruise in anything under about 40 feet. See, they'd been schooled in the boating mags, who of course push what the advertisers sell. They were astonished at where I'd been.
The Tritons, Ariels, Rholdes Rangers, Meridians, etc just are not being built anymore. Not enough return on investment to tool up and build smaller boats.
And THAT'S why I talk about small boats. MAYBE I had planted a seed, and MAYBE they'll get a small cruiser and go. I hope so.
Hey, I'm not saying you can't cruise on a 24 footer. I am a great admirer of the Pardeys, and if it was just me I would certainly consider something under 30 feet for long-range cruising. Just expressing my own opinion, having cruised as a couple on boats that were 17, 20, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32, 37, and 38 feet that in my personal experience, 30-32 feet is the sweet spot. I've even owned and lived aboard a Meridian (first boat I ever lived aboard), which convinced me that overhangs are worthless on a boat (too much pitching motion at sea and even in harbor). As has been pointed out, long-term cruising and liveaboard use makes a big difference too.
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 23, 2014, 09:07:19 PM
...Turned out to be a nice young couple, dreaming about going sailing. And until that moment had zero idea that you COULD cruise in anything under about 40 feet. See, they'd been schooled in the boating mags, who of course push what the advertisers sell. They were astonished at where I'd been.
This weekend I thumbed through a noncurrent Cruising World mag which was given to me (as a career sales/marketing guy I love evaluating the creativity of the advertising industry) and I was stunned at the number of manufacturers advertising these mammoth 50+ footers with a smiling couple snuggling and drinking wine while a uniformed crew takes care of the mundane efforts of actually sailing the boat.
How many people at any given time could possibly be in the market for a vessel like this? Isn't it incredible that such a tiny fragment of the population is able to keep those manufacturers in business and in competition? Fascinating economics...
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 24, 2014, 08:39:43 AM
a Meridian ... convinced me that overhangs are worthless on a boat
??? ??? ???
I have a book in my library from quite a while ago called "Ocean Voyaging" by a man named David Parker, published in 1975. Amazingly, still available in places.
One of the best write ups I've read about setting up for ocean voyaging, and the boats he went through on his way to HIS "perfect" boat.. Much discussion on the whys and wherefores that led him to his end decisions
From a 29 footer, built for racing that beat him to death, to a heavy 40 footer, he called her his "man Killer" due to maintenance, to his final, custom built boat- a 27 foot sloop with a 10 foot beam and 4000 pound displacement.
Very interesting book if you can find it
On this vein- I recently put together a recap, with lots of photos, on how Tehani and I came to be together, and how she was redone, in answer to a question over on Trailer Sailor (TSBB)
Link is here if anyone is interested-
http://forum.trailersailor.com/post.php?id=1375897
And John- things have changed- these pics will stick
Quote from: CharlieJ on March 24, 2014, 06:10:58 PM
And John- things have changed- these pics will stick
COOL!
Now, if they could get all my links to CB's cool posts over the years to still work .... ;) ;D
on the lighter side.......teenagers "in love" could be totally happy on a Montgomery 15 !
But thats another story ;D
Wow--lots of hard work went into the Meridian. Nicely done! One thing that has been touched on here, but I will re-emphasize. I have this dream of getting an 18-foot Marshall catboat some day and using it to gunkhole my way up and down the East Coast, using sail whenever possible, never having to worry about where I might anchor with her centerboard. But, I wouldn't want to take that boat offshore to Bermuda and down to the Caribbean. I myself don't need much at all in a boat. I'm perfectly happy using a camping stove, taking cold showers in the cockpit, and paddling ashore in an inflatable kayak. But, I know some other people that are very large, and they have a very large boat (50 feet I think). They make their boat look small. When they come on my boats they have a tough time fitting down the companionway and usually stay in the cockpit. Their dinghy is a 17-foot fiberglass skiff with a 25HP outboard. They wouldn't want to go any smaller. When I was young three of us sailed to Labrador and back on a 29 footer. It was fine for two of us, but my friend stands about 6' 4" and was always either in a stoop down below or cracking his skull on something. He needed a bigger boat. My point is there is no universal "smallest cruiser that will keep a couple happy." Depends on the couple and what they want to do with the boat.
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 25, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
I have this dream of getting an 18-foot Marshall catboat some day and using it to gunkhole my way up and down the East Coast, using sail whenever possible, never having to worry about where I might anchor with her centerboard. But, I wouldn't want to take that boat offshore to Bermuda and down to the Caribbean.
That sounds like a pretty awesome adventure.
A friend of mine lived aboard and cruised from the Chesapeake to Florida, across to the islands, back to FL and back north on a 18 ft Drascombe Lugger (open boat). I'm not sure how often he did this circuit, but I gathered it was at least twice.
From his stories, it was a very different trip than the ones where folks are larger boats motor down the ICW as quickly as possible to get to FL. So much water missed that way...
Quote from: Kettlewell on March 25, 2014, 09:11:23 AM
When I was young three of us sailed to Labrador and back on a 29 footer. It was fine for two of us, but my friend stands about 6' 4" and was always either in a stoop down below or cracking his skull on something. He needed a bigger boat.
I'm the same height and in exactly the same place. Since the size of vessel that would allow me to properly stand up is beyond my current reach, the thought keeps returning to my mind that maybe I would be better off with strictly sitting only headroom, which would eliminate the urge to stand and stoop. As long as i can sit or recline with my book and a beverage and be warm and dry I'm living like a king!
I've neglected to mention explicitly in this thread that four of us (and a cat) lived on an Alberg 30 for three years.
I think a 30 footer for a couple is HUGE. ;) Add to that that most "modern" thirty footers are huge by CCA era standards for LOA, and well...
"Space" is, in my opinion, over-rated - especially on a boat. More space = more junk to fill it, or it's just empty space.
It is a VERY personal decision; on that point I won't argue. My wife and I, were it just us, would have looked for something in the 26-28 ft range, again, "small for their LOA" CCA era boats like a Triton.
We could easily provision for three months (or more) on the A-30 for the four of us. But, there's more in what we would NOT be carrying. As I emptied my boat at the boat yard last haul-out, I was astounded at how much that boat could hold.
The issue is not "not enough space," the issues are "space for WHAT" and how that space is efficiently used.
As we have discussed here a lot (and it bears repeating from time to time), a boat is not a house. What needs to be taken aboard and how those things need to be stored are VERY different. Too many US 'cruisers' try to make the boat just like their land-home. And thus the "myth" is born that a couple NEEDS 40+ feet of boat to do it.
I recently talked to a fellow who mentioned he'd like to live on a boat, and mentioned this to his wife. He then went on to say that she likes "stuff;" hanging stuff on walls, collecting knick-knacks, and the like. THAT would be the problem for living aboard...extending the house-living lifestyle to living aboard.
To me (personally), there's a degree of comfort in "Spartan." Complexity and clutter create stress. Small and simple "suits" me. It would not suit that dude's wife, and for him to get her aboard for an extended period, I guess it WOULD require a huge boat.
But there's another group...those that think big is needed just because someone else said bigger is needed. I'm reminded of a conversation between a lady who had planned going full time cruising and another that was at the beginning planning stage. The one said to the other, "We did everything right...we even had the right boat...a 4x something" (I don't recall the actual boat).
Ugh. So sad. Another "failed dream."
The second lady was likewise convinced she NEEDED a large boat to be safe, comfortable and happy. Her family (of four) bought a 38 ft cat, and they planned their circumnav around "rallies." I have no idea the status of their plans as I've lost touch with them.
But, I will mention that she was the same lady that acted like I peed on her food the day I mentioned that we did not have refrigeration on board. Her "fear" of lacking such "modern conveniences" bubbled to the top, and the conversation was over. She asked me, "How do you EAT?" She did not ask, "How do you preserve food." She somehow associated the basic survival act of eating with the 'convenience' of refrigeration.
THAT's the dream killer. The notion that this, that or the other thing is NECESSARY, and don't you DARE try sailing / cruising without them.
My answer to her question was, "We eat just fine." After a few minutes, I tried to explain to her my thoughts on fear and dependency when it comes to 'survival.' In the end, though, she just could not comprehend living without refrigeration, and the thought of having a boat without a fridge could no way be acceptable for living aboard.
Great post Capt S Some may find an engel IS needed for their use and requirements...but that is so easily done by a 120W panel. Grog to ya
Quote from: DarrenC on March 25, 2014, 12:38:53 PM
maybe I would be better off with strictly sitting only headroom, which would eliminate the urge to stand and stoop. As long as i can sit or recline with my book and a beverage and be warm and dry I'm living like a king!
Interesting that you mention that, because I JUST a few minutes ago made that same thought. You might be better served by abandoning the idea of 'standing head room' and go for sitting headroom for exactly the reason you mention.
Headroom has to come from somewhere: it's got to come from freeboard, draft or cabin trunk height...or a combination of any two or all three.
No way around that.
Sure, you could have an Ariel with 6' 6" head room via a tall cabin...and it would both look ridiculous AND not be very seaworthy (too much top hamper is what the old school guys would call it).
To get a fair balance between those three design metrics, a 'big boat' (by sailfar standards) would be needed.
But, going the OTHER way...I have a boat with "sitting headroom" and we've sailed a lot of miles on her. It's "different." But, it can be done, and done effectively.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Quote from: Frank on March 25, 2014, 01:33:43 PM
Great post Capt S Some may find an engel IS needed for their use and requirements...but that is so easily done by a 120W panel. Grog to ya
And that's fair.
What I did not state clearly was that she did not even give it that much thought. It was a very knee jerk response, based in fear (that I could see written all over her face), "How can you EAT?" says a lot.
A skipper weighing the pros and cons in outfitting their boat is a far different thing than just assuming you HAVE to have a fridge (or GPS, or radar or whatever else) just because it's assumed that you have to have it. That's tautology at its finest. ;D
I guess it's the fear factor that bugged me more that the merits of refrigeration or not. She did not even ask me, "Ok, so how do you solve the problems that refrigeration solves? What other options are there?" Nope. It was just..."OMG! No FRIDGE? NO WAY WE CAN LIVE LIKE THAT!!!!!"
Had to be there, I guess....
And for the record, I have coveted an Engel on board
Gaelic Sea many times. It's still not off the table. It's just a lower priority than some of the other mods in process.
Note to all: there are some wonderful historic threads and posts here if time is taken to look. This is a great adventure on 25ft http://sailing-sumatra.livejournal.com/
Then there is CJ's cruise, Craigs cruise on Faith and many others.......all on 26ft or less!
Quote from: Frank on March 25, 2014, 02:33:36 PM
Note to all: there are some wonderful historic threads and posts here if time is taken to look. This is a great adventure on 25ft http://sailing-sumatra.livejournal.com/
Then there is CJ's cruise, Craigs cruise on Faith and many others.......all on 26ft or less!
To linkify a bit of that "couples on small boats" info:
The beginning of Craig and Rose's Ariel (26) thread: http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,72.0.html
CJ and Laura headed out on a Meridian 26: http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2504.0.html
Nick and his SO, on a Compac 23: http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2818.0.html
Mike and Mary refitting a Morgan 28: http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,91.0.html
I know we're leaving a bunch out, but there's a start.
The gist to me sure seems to be said quite well by lots of enthusiasm and lots of smiles in the photos!
Each couple will have to answer that question themselves. No one can answer that for them. It's like buying a house. Some feel that they have to have 5000 + sq feet for them to be happy and others feel 1000 sq foot home is to big. I also feel that some buy larger boat for more of a social thing. When we were cruising on our 22' Starwind we found that the big boat owners would invite us over as a novelty thing more so than just wanting to get to know another couple.
Like Charlie said. "Look at the cute day sailor".
A funny thing about headroom is that it isn't necessarily how tall the people are that makes the difference. Our 30-footer was completely flush-decked with no doghouse (I loved that flat working deck!) meaning no standing headroom below, but my wife at 5' 2" could almost stand in places--drove her nuts! Me, at 5' 10" standing was hopeless so I didn't bother and I learned to move around quickly in a stoop and then sit when I got someplace. I didn't mind the low headroom at all. After spending several years cruising fulltime between New England and the Bahamas and back, and having mostly a wonderful time, my wife basically put her foot down and said it was either get a new boat with more headroom or a new wife. The "almost standing" was worse than no standing, particularly in the galley. I must admit that I have never liked cooking sitting down on smaller boats.
If you truly break down what is needed for "comfort" in order for two people to spend time aboard....I honestly feel there are multiple choices in the 26-28ft range. Two settee's so each can lay back and read on rainy days. A comfortable Vberth. A private head. A decent galley. Standing headroom. Moderate storage. Yep....MANY boats in the 26-28ft range!!! Add a dodger and bimini, an Engel if you like cold beer, a GPS and charts....off you go.
The obvious huge benifit with this size range has been often disscussed previously here. Anchor wieght is lower making buying a good one much cheaper as well as retreiving it SO much easier! Bottom jobs are a 3rd the effort and expense! Sails are SO much easier to handle, to reef and oh ya...cheaper to replace. The list goes on and on. Typically shallower draft = more anchorages and less stressful cruising. (yes...you CAN cruise the Keys and Bahamas with 6ft+ draft...but I ask "WHY"?) Try waxing the hull on a 33fter...then a 26. HUGE difference.
I've had exellent "couples cruises" on a 20ft Flicka, 23's, 25's, 26 on up. The "majic" to me is that 26-28ft range for 2 for several months away.